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Regional Boards => Canada => Topic started by: NE2 on August 22, 2011, 07:39:24 PM

Title: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: NE2 on August 22, 2011, 07:39:24 PM
This is probably getting off topic a bit, but anyone else want to comment on why Ontario, Quebec, NB and Nova Scotia didn't change their sections of the TC to route #1?  I realize they may already have had route 1's, but it seems to me that unifying the closest thing Canada has to a national highway under a single number would be worth the minor inconvenience of lesser routes getting new numbers.
The TCH is much less important to these provinces. Here's a 1955 map of the TCH (http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/maps/archives/3rdedition/economic/transportationandcommunications/085), showing how it follows a bunch of different highways in Ontario.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: ghYHZ on August 22, 2011, 08:10:40 PM
This is probably getting off topic a bit, but anyone else want to comment on why Ontario, Quebec, NB and Nova Scotia didn't change their sections of the TC to route #1?  I realize they may already have had route 1's, but it seems to me that unifying the closest thing Canada has to a national highway under a single number would be worth the minor inconvenience of lesser routes getting new numbers.

Why? Here in Nova Scotia TCH104, as well as TCH105 & TCH106 works fine for me as it probably does for most others that drive it every day......if it ain`t broke, why fix it!  104, 105 & 106 all carry the green TCH shield.

NS1 is an original two lane Trunk highway running from Halifax to Yarmouth via the Annapolis Valley. The parallel four lane freeway is NS101 and the closest it comes to the Trans Canada is about 80 kms.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: xonhulu on August 23, 2011, 12:09:35 AM
Why? Here in Nova Scotia TCH104, as well as TCH105 & TCH106 works fine for me as it probably does for most others that drive it every day......if it ain`t broke, why fix it!  104, 105 & 106 all carry the green TCH shield.

Because it's one route. At least give it one number in NS, even if it's not 1.  No, it's not necessary, but far more sensible.

There's precedent for this in Canada, by the way.  The current TCH 16 originally consisted of different numbered routes (AB/BC 16, SK 5, SK 14, MB 4), but the latter two provinces changed their portions to 16 by 1977 to give the Yellowhead Highway a consistent route number.  All were signed with the Yellowhead shield before this, so by your criteria it wasn't necessary to do this, but I don't think anyone would disagree it's better to have the entire highway united under a single route number.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: ghYHZ on August 23, 2011, 06:06:17 AM
Why? Here in Nova Scotia TCH104, as well as TCH105 & TCH106 works fine for me as it probably does for most others that drive it every day......if it ain`t broke, why fix it!  104, 105 & 106 all carry the green TCH shield.

Because it's one route. At least give it one number in NS, even if it's not 1.  No, it's not necessary, but far more sensible.

As I said 104, 105 & 106 work just fine here. The whole provincial highway numbering system would be affected……..1, 2, 3, 4 etc are the original Trunk routes. When that route was “Super 2d” twinned or the parallel divided highway constructed it became the 101, 102, 103, 104 etc.

A renumbered “TCH1” would have to be at least a “TCH 101” here except for short sections in Cape Breton where it is on the old trunk alignment.

Conceivably there could be a continuous number from the NB border to the Newfoundland Ferry at North Sydney…..not changing at Port Hastings as it does now from TCH104 to TCH105.  But how would you treat the spur (current TCH106) from Mt. William to the Caribou Ferry?   

A lot of expense for nothing gained. If someone can't follow a green TCH shield instead of a number..........
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: vdeane on August 23, 2011, 10:13:31 AM
Do Ontario and Quebec even post TCH shields?

The majority of Ontario's population is probably south of the TCH anyways.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: ghYHZ on August 23, 2011, 11:47:26 AM
Do Ontario and Quebec even post TCH shields?

The majority of Ontario's population is probably south of the TCH anyways.

Yes the shield is posted along with the provincial route number in both Ont and Quebec.

The 401 corridor is south of the TCH and the closest the TCH gets to Toronto is about 80kms. 
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: vdeane on August 24, 2011, 10:07:42 AM
Do Ontario and Quebec even post TCH shields?

The majority of Ontario's population is probably south of the TCH anyways.

Yes the shield is posted along with the provincial route number in both Ont and Quebec.

The 401 corridor is south of the TCH and the closest the TCH gets to Toronto is about 80kms. 
Doesn't seem to be shown on the photos I've seen of ON 17 and ON 417 just now.  I'm pretty sure I didn't see any when I was in Ottawa in 2009 which is why I wanted to check.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: ghYHZ on August 24, 2011, 11:45:35 AM
Do Ontario and Quebec even post TCH shields?

The majority of Ontario's population is probably south of the TCH anyways.

Yes the shield is posted along with the provincial route number in both Ont and Quebec.

The 401 corridor is south of the TCH and the closest the TCH gets to Toronto is about 80kms. 
Doesn't seem to be shown on the photos I've seen of ON 17 and ON 417 just now.  I'm pretty sure I didn't see any when I was in Ottawa in 2009 which is why I wanted to check.

Definitely posted along Autoroute 20 in Quebec and the ones I saw on 17 were in the Ottawa Valley around Deep River and Rolphton.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: vdeane on August 25, 2011, 11:04:33 AM
Granted I didn't see too many photos of ON 17 either way; they might have dropped them on ON 417 in favor of the freeway designation, but I've personally only been on 20 km of it.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: NE2 on August 25, 2011, 11:12:18 AM
From a bit of looking on Google Street View, Ontario seems to not use trailblazers for the TCH and only use reassurance sometimes.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: ghYHZ on August 25, 2011, 04:10:18 PM
Granted I didn't see too many photos of ON 17 either way; they might have dropped them on ON 417 in favor of the freeway designation, but I've personally only been on 20 km of it.

Here's ON17 just beyond the end of 417 at Arnprior:

http://g.co/maps/pcrv
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: Alps on August 25, 2011, 09:38:14 PM
Do Ontario and Quebec even post TCH shields?

The majority of Ontario's population is probably south of the TCH anyways.

Yes the shield is posted along with the provincial route number in both Ont and Quebec.

The 401 corridor is south of the TCH and the closest the TCH gets to Toronto is about 80kms. 
Doesn't seem to be shown on the photos I've seen of ON 17 and ON 417 just now.  I'm pretty sure I didn't see any when I was in Ottawa in 2009 which is why I wanted to check.

Definitely posted along Autoroute 20 in Quebec and the ones I saw on 17 were in the Ottawa Valley around Deep River and Rolphton.

Quebec is the only province, I believe, where the number is not posted in the shield because they use the Autoroute shield instead.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: Dr Frankenstein on August 25, 2011, 10:34:10 PM
Ontario doesn't put numbers in their TCH shields either. They're usually posted numberless along with the standard King's Highway reassurance shields.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: NE2 on August 25, 2011, 10:47:32 PM
Sometimes they put the name of the branch (like "Northern Ontario Route") in the shield. http://www.thekingshighway.ca/intro.html has photos near the bottom.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: Pilgrimway on August 28, 2011, 09:08:40 AM
There is already a route 1 in New Brunswick which is a major highway so renaming the TCH there would also involve a major renumbering that would be more trouble than its worth.  No one in New Brunswick is complaining about "TCH-2".  Or even TCH-16 which runs to the Confederation Bridge.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: xonhulu on August 28, 2011, 11:46:10 AM
I agree that renumbering routes would involve some difficulties, but it's been done before in numerous locations and eventually everyone adapts.  If they had renumbered every segment of the main route of the TCH to 1 or some other number when the route was first designated, then today nobody (except maybe us) would remember that so-and-so was originally route 1 but it was forced to change numbers decades ago because of the TCH.  But my main point wasn't that provinces should be forced to apply route 1 to the TCH, it was simply the philosophical statement that it would be better if the route had a consistent number across provinces and my curiosity as to why that wasn't the case.

Put another way, what would've been better in the Interstate and US Route systems in the States: that roadways change numbers crossing state lines, or that routes keep their numbers across those state lines?  Obviously, it's better and easier for following those routes that they maintain consistent numbers.  But it would've still worked if we'd kept the named highway trails and cosigned those with the routes; it's just that the Interstate and US Routes as they are constitute a more efficient way to indicate a multi-state route than, say, the Lincoln Highway consisting of multiple differently-numbered routes.

On another note, I don't necessarily even think 1 should've been the number for the TCH.  Other numbers, like 0 or 100, would have been interesting choices, and not because they'd represent extensions of US numbering schemes, but more for them being unique, distinctive numbers.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: Michael in Philly on August 29, 2011, 11:29:31 AM
^^I think once a numbering system has been in place for some time, old habits die hard.  A national numbering system for US routes caught on because it was the 1920s and most people hadn't been driving for very long; a national numbering system for the Interstates caught on because the roads themselves were completely new.  Superimposing the Trans-Canada about 1960 on existing provincial highways that had been in place for a few decades.... 

The analogy that comes to mind is the European route system.  Good idea, I suppose, but the only people who care about it are people in countries (Belgium and the Scandinavian countries) which have suppressed the domestic numbering of their expressways in favor of the European numbers (which is the case in Belgium) or never had domestic numbering of their expressways (which I believe is the case in Scandinavia).  In other words, in those countries, the European number is serving as the number even locals use to get from one city to the next or in traffic reports....  In most of Europe, where there's a domestic numbering system in place as well, people - even from other countries - know roads by their domestic numbers.

So for example no one would ever follow the E19 from Paris to Amsterdam, or at least think they were following it, even though it is marked; they'd think of it as the (French) A1, then the A2, or follow signs to Brussels, then Antwerp.... unless they chose a different route altogether, and it's only really called the E19 on the Belgian segment where the domestic numbers aren't signed.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: texaskdog on August 29, 2011, 01:33:20 PM
It's Canada, there is only one road.  "Follow the only road"
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: triplemultiplex on August 29, 2011, 09:03:14 PM
It's Canada, there is only one road.  "Follow the only road"

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104261/follow-the-only-road-in-canada (http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104261/follow-the-only-road-in-canada)

"It's paved and wide and up to code."

Can't get a South Park reference passed this guy.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: ghYHZ on August 30, 2011, 06:01:38 AM
In the Constitutional division of powers between Ottawa and the Provinces (believe me……you don’t want to go there!)…….Highways are a Provincial responsibility.

Even though federal funding is provided to maintain a national system, it is overlaid on existing provincial highways.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/policy/NHS_2007.pdf

If visitors to Canada can follow a route maker displaying only a “QEW” (whatever that is! :confused:) and without a number between the Niagara Frontier and Toronto…….they should be able to follow a Green Maple Leaf for the 7,800 km from St. John’s to Victoria.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: ghYHZ on August 30, 2011, 06:10:04 AM
It's Canada, there is only one road.  "Follow the only road"

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104261/follow-the-only-road-in-canada (http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104261/follow-the-only-road-in-canada)

"It's paved and wide and up to code."

Can't get a South Park reference passed this guy.

I'd like to see this but when I klick the link I get: "Sorry Canada....Video Not Available"  :angry:
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: Dr Frankenstein on September 02, 2011, 09:16:32 PM
If visitors to Canada can follow a route maker displaying only a “QEW” (whatever that is! :confused:) and without a number between the Niagara Frontier and Toronto…….
Queen Elizabeth Way.

I'd like to see this but when I klick the link I get: "Sorry Canada....Video Not Available"  :angry:
Blame the incompatible copyright laws...
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: Michael in Philly on September 03, 2011, 07:25:04 PM
If visitors to Canada can follow a route maker displaying only a “QEW” (whatever that is! :confused:) and without a number between the Niagara Frontier and Toronto…….
Queen Elizabeth Way.

I'd like to see this but when I klick the link I get: "Sorry Canada....Video Not Available"  :angry:
Blame the incompatible copyright laws...

Trivia question (to which I know the answer):  who was the Queen Elizabeth Way named after?
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: Quillz on September 03, 2011, 09:29:39 PM
The Queen Elizabeth Way was named for Queen Elizabeth (later known as the "Queen Mother"), the Queen Consort of King George VI.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: Michael in Philly on September 03, 2011, 11:12:32 PM
^^Thus saith Wikipedia (which I checked to verify what I'd already heard or read years ago).
:-)
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: english si on September 04, 2011, 08:46:20 AM
The Queen Elizabeth Way was named for Queen Elizabeth (later known as the "Queen Mother"), the Queen Consort of King George VI.
It was always "the Queen Mother", rather than "Queen Mother" (being a description, rather than a name), though she had other titles (look on wikipedia at what they called her at her funeral - it's a good long paragraph). While I know of no other time it's done (though QEQM redirects on wikipedia), certainly not when she was alive, but the Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother Hospital (http://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=51.376093,1.386423&spn=0.000027,0.042272&z=15&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=51.376169,1.386334&panoid=o5RZlVo7E-JuWahsF30qkQ&cbp=12,119.59,,1,6.12) in Margate abbreviates it to Q E Q M Hospital.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: ghYHZ on September 07, 2011, 03:14:02 PM
If visitors to Canada can follow a route maker displaying only a “QEW” (whatever that is! :confused:)
Queen Elizabeth Way.
Thanks……but didn’t you catch my sarcasm? I grew up next to the QEW in Niagara Falls and we just called it the “Queen E”
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: vdeane on September 08, 2011, 07:36:00 AM
Thanks……but didn’t you catch my sarcasm? I grew up next to the QEW in Niagara Falls and we just called it the “Queen E”
Probably should have used a different smiley.  The one you posted means "confused".
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: ghYHZ on September 08, 2011, 10:45:42 AM
Thanks……but didn’t you catch my sarcasm? I grew up next to the QEW in Niagara Falls and we just called it the “Queen E”
Probably should have used a different smiley.  The one you posted means "confused".
Yes a visitor may be confused when they see "QEW" on a maker when they are used to seeing a number.   
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: vdeane on September 09, 2011, 12:03:27 PM
The confused smiley doesn't imply sarcasm... it implies that you seriously were confused.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: ghYHZ on September 09, 2011, 12:51:16 PM
The confused smiley doesn't imply sarcasm... it implies that you seriously were confused.
:colorful:
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: Alps on September 11, 2011, 11:24:44 PM
And today I did see the assembly in Ontario on the 417. Four shields in all, reposted after every exit in Ottawa (WB):
[417]
[TO 7][TO 17]
[TCH]
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: dmuzika on November 03, 2011, 06:09:52 PM
And today I did see the assembly in Ontario on the 417. Four shields in all, reposted after every exit in Ottawa (WB):
[417]
[TO 7][TO 17]
[TCH]

Something like this??
(http://www.thekingshighway.ca/PHOTOS-4/hwy417-9_lg.jpg)
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: aridawn on January 21, 2012, 09:27:39 PM
Do Ontario and Quebec even post TCH shields?

The majority of Ontario's population is probably south of the TCH anyways.

Yes the shield is posted along with the provincial route number in both Ont and Quebec.

The 401 corridor is south of the TCH and the closest the TCH gets to Toronto is about 80kms.  
Doesn't seem to be shown on the photos I've seen of ON 17 and ON 417 just now.  I'm pretty sure I didn't see any when I was in Ottawa in 2009 which is why I wanted to check.

In Ontario the TCH splits at Ottawa, and follows ON-417/17 west to North Bay and on to Manitoba, and ON-7 west of Lindsay at JCT ON-12 north to Orillia to JCT ON-400, to meet up with ON-17 at Sudbury. This is know and signed as the Central Ontario Route.  AT this JCT of 7 and 12, is the closest west in Central Ontario that the TCH gets to Toronto. At North Bay, the TCH splits again to follow ON-11 (Northern Ontario Route), and ON-17 then meets up at Nipigon (Lake Superior Route). The thinking at the time was to provide as much coverage of Ontario as possible.  Also interestingly enough Ontario does not have a HWY 1 as the government at the time (1920's) didn't want towns and cities fighting over the possible routing of a road.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: webfil on January 22, 2012, 11:24:24 AM
Do Ontario and Quebec even post TCH shields?

The majority of Ontario's population is probably south of the TCH anyways.

Yes the shield is posted along with the provincial route number in both Ont and Quebec.

The 401 corridor is south of the TCH and the closest the TCH gets to Toronto is about 80kms. 
Doesn't seem to be shown on the photos I've seen of ON 17 and ON 417 just now.  I'm pretty sure I didn't see any when I was in Ottawa in 2009 which is why I wanted to check.

In Ontario the TCH splits at Ottawa, and follows ON-417/17 west to North Bay and on to Manitoba, and ON-7 to west to Lindsay to ON-12 then north to Orillia and then north on ON-400 to meet up with ON-17 at Sudbury.

Don't forget ON-66/ON-11 Northern Route, which is the shortest all-canadian route between the Prairies and the Maritimes.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: dmuzika on January 26, 2012, 11:24:57 AM
Don't forget ON-66/ON-11 Northern Route, which is the shortest all-canadian route between the Prairies and the Maritimes.

Does anyone know how much Prairie-Maritime traffic uses the Aut 15/QC 117 & ON 66/11 route of the Trans Canada Hwy?  The distance savings is 85 km by taking the Northern Route over Aut 40 & ON 417/17, yet the southern route offers more major centres like Ottawa, North Bay, Sudbury, and Sault Ste Marie for tourist services.  When did that route get assigned the TCH designation?
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: dmuzika on January 26, 2012, 01:10:11 PM
Why? Here in Nova Scotia TCH104, as well as TCH105 & TCH106 works fine for me as it probably does for most others that drive it every day......if it ain`t broke, why fix it!  104, 105 & 106 all carry the green TCH shield.

Because it's one route. At least give it one number in NS, even if it's not 1.  No, it's not necessary, but far more sensible.

There's precedent for this in Canada, by the way.  The current TCH 16 originally consisted of different numbered routes (AB/BC 16, SK 5, SK 14, MB 4), but the latter two provinces changed their portions to 16 by 1977 to give the Yellowhead Highway a consistent route number.  All were signed with the Yellowhead shield before this, so by your criteria it wasn't necessary to do this, but I don't think anyone would disagree it's better to have the entire highway united under a single route number.

The other precident is in Alberta - prior to 1941 the east-west route out of Calgary (current TCH 1) was AB 2 while the current AB 2 was designated as AB 1.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: aridawn on January 30, 2012, 04:18:25 PM
Do Ontario and Quebec even post TCH shields?

The majority of Ontario's population is probably south of the TCH anyways.

Yes the shield is posted along with the provincial route number in both Ont and Quebec.

The 401 corridor is south of the TCH and the closest the TCH gets to Toronto is about 80kms. 
Doesn't seem to be shown on the photos I've seen of ON 17 and ON 417 just now.  I'm pretty sure I didn't see any when I was in Ottawa in 2009 which is why I wanted to check.

In Ontario the TCH splits at Ottawa, and follows ON-417/17 west to North Bay and on to Manitoba, and ON-7 to west to Lindsay to ON-12 then north to Orillia and then north on ON-400 to meet up with ON-17 at Sudbury.

Don't forget ON-66/ON-11 Northern Route, which is the shortest all-canadian route between the Prairies and the Maritimes.
ng

i have mentioned the ON-11, but if we are to mention ON-66 then I have to mention The Lake-of-the-Woods/Rainy River Route from Thunder Bay to Kenora via ON-11 to ON-71.
Title: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: Transportfan on April 04, 2018, 10:25:48 AM
How did this thread get back to the top? The last post was from 2012.
Title: Re: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: Bickendan on April 04, 2018, 04:40:13 PM
A post likely got edited for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: texaskdog on April 04, 2018, 07:40:27 PM
thought this was a fritzowl post
Title: Re: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: MNHighwayMan on April 04, 2018, 07:53:40 PM
thought this was a fritzowl post

Can't be. This isn't in the Fictional Highways forum.
Title: Re: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: texaskdog on April 04, 2018, 08:32:46 PM
thought this was a fritzowl post

Can't be. This isn't in the Fictional Highways forum.

I'm sure he'd have 100 TransCanada freeways
Title: Re: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: MNHighwayMan on April 04, 2018, 08:43:26 PM
thought this was a fritzowl post
Can't be. This isn't in the Fictional Highways forum.
I'm sure he'd have 100 TransCanada freeways

With a Interstate-grade freeway to Tuktoyaktuk, a loop through northern Nunavut that includes bridges at each end of Baffin Island, and a spur route that connects to Nuuk in Greenland.
Title: Re: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: vdeane on April 04, 2018, 08:51:12 PM
But would he include an interstate to Alert?
Title: Re: Re: Trans-Canada Highway Numbering
Post by: kkt on April 04, 2018, 10:00:55 PM
thought this was a fritzowl post

Can't be. This isn't in the Fictional Highways forum.

I'm sure he'd have 100 TransCanada freeways

No, he'd have freeways but they'd be called Interstates.  Because the US highway system has a manifest destiny to cover the continent globe.