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West Virginia Turnpike

Started by seicer, March 17, 2013, 01:13:01 PM

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vdeane

Quote from: Bitmapped on December 24, 2023, 09:08:31 AM
Quote from: Rothman on December 24, 2023, 12:23:32 AM
Hm.  Does WV have no locally-administered federal-aid projects, then?  That seems highly unlikely.

Bear in mind that most infrastructure in WV is owned by the state. Counties don't own anything. In cities, most of the major roads are owned by the state by virtue of being a US, WV, or county route. That leaves a relatively small number of routes that are significant enough to qualify for federal aid but that are still municipally maintained.

Federal aid dollars do get used for municipal bridges, but WVDOH normally ends up administering those projects because the local governments generally lack the capacity to do so. Charleston is really the only municipality I can think of that has significant bridges on federal aid-eligible roads that are municipally maintained inside an MPO. I think they have let some projects on their own but it's been a while since one of their larger bridges has had a significant rehab.

I've not seen a paving project on a federal aid-eligible municipally-maintained street that has used federal dollars. The municipality inevitably foots the entire bill itself.

As an example of what I mean about WVDOH dictating things, look at the TIP for the Morgantown-Monongalia MPO. (See https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IcV9LlBIKNws8HyIZoKt0k60TUVQEoc9F-VbIkVwrj8/edit#gid=0). Those two projects at the very end for the Morgantown Industrial Park Access road are brand new. A company in the industrial park was promised a new I-79 interchange, but FHWA was taking too long to sign off on an interchange justification study. The company whined to the state, so boom, a new $80 million bridge across the Monongahela River appears out of thin air and presented to the MPO to add to the TIP. Nobody asked for this bridge other than the one company. It was not in the long-term planning the MPO had done. But because the company wants it, the state wants it, and the state threatened the MPO they'd pull funding from other projects the community does want if they didn't put it on the TIP.

Is this how it is supposed to work? No. Is it the reality of how things work with MPOs in West Virginia? Unfortunately, yes.
That's a good point about how much the state maintains.  I was wondering how WVDOH could dictate terms to the MPOs given how powerful the larger ones are in NY, but I imagine that's a lot easier when they aren't competing with anyone else for funding.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.


Black-Man

Quote from: Bitmapped on December 23, 2023, 09:09:23 PM
MPOs are a formality in West Virginia. They exist to sign whatever paperwork and adopt whatever TIP amendments WVDOH tells them to approve.

As for the data centers, I'll believe it when I see it with 600 employees. That would be a much heavier staffing level than you normally see. Even if it is that level, you don't really have shipments in and out and you don't have customers visiting. We're talking probably 1200-2000 trips a day, spread out over the all hours to account for round-the-clock staffing. Other than whatever side road connects to US 19, I doubt there would be a significant need for upgrades.

The presentation from the developer showed 8 large buildings and they stated 500-600 employees. It is to be located a mile or so south of where the additional lane is being added to US19. The locals were quite adamant about the increased traffic. I assume you realize that there is more to this development than the data centers.


seicer

Eh, 600 workers spread over three shifts is a significant addition but not unmanageable for a two or three-lane road, where most of the traffic is more than likely going north and then over to the Beckley bypass extension. Nucor (steel mill) is coming to WV 2 down in Mason County and is bringing with it 800 jobs. It's next to another plant that has hundreds of jobs. The road could stand to see improvements, such as added shoulders, but it's nowhere close to needing four lanes.

Highways are generally not designed for peak traffic conditions, such as what may be experienced around shift change. If that was the case, we'd have many more roads built for much more capacity than is ever realized.

wriddle082

600 workers maybe while they're building the data centers, but once they're up and running they will probably only need a hundred or so who will actually need to keep the servers running, spread across three shifts.  Software upgrades can and do occur remotely.  So more/good hotels, especially of the (upper scale) extended-stay variety, should be built.  New housing, not so much.

I've worked in a lot of massive data centers over my 25+ years in telecom equipment installation, and the buildings are massive but don't need many workers.  A good example of this is one for American Express outside of Greensboro, NC that I've worked at a few times.  It's the size of at least two football fields, but has a rather small parking lot that was never full when I would visit during the day.  And this was pre-pandemic.

Black-Man

Quote from: seicer on January 03, 2024, 07:59:20 PM
Eh, 600 workers spread over three shifts is a significant addition but not unmanageable for a two or three-lane road

It is already congested and has been this way for nearly 40 years. Glade Springs built an entrance on the back side so as to get to I-64 at Bragg! Last night the Raleigh county commission tabled the zoning request until the WV DOH completes a traffic study. Something the DOH should have done in preparation for this development to begin with. I have no doubt the connector to the Turnpike with a new interchange will be on the docket. They just better get the plans approved while Jim Justice is governor or it definitely will never get done.

seicer

#130
Any connector to the Turnpike would be a 10 to 15-year project, considering that it has not gone through any formal planning or environmental review. It's not getting built in Justice's lifetime and he'll be dead before anything is built. The Beckley Z-Way bypass project assumed that the Turnpike would not be building a Shady Spring connector or interchange, so I'm not sure if that's an indication that it was never seriously considered or if it was just a pipedream. In 2006, the Legislature removed the requirement for the Turnpike to study an interchange at Shady Spring (HB 4439/SB557) but it looked like it was being re-evaluated in 2014.

Meanwhile, a contract was let in June to build the Beckley Z-Way bypass between Interstate 64/S. Eisenhower Drive and CR 19/54 in Beaver. I'm not sure when the contract to widen 3.7 miles of US 19 from CR 19/54 in Beaver to WV 3 at Shady Spring, but a FONSI was completed in 2023.

wriddle082

Major accident at the Ghent Toll Plaza today.  Multiple fatalities.

https://www.wvva.com/2024/03/11/update-wvdot-confirms-multi-vehicle-accident-caused-fire-ghent-toll-plaza/?outputType=apps

They really need to go cashless along the entire roadway!

Bitmapped

#132
Quote from: wriddle082 on March 11, 2024, 09:44:17 PM
Major accident at the Ghent Toll Plaza today.  Multiple fatalities.

https://www.wvva.com/2024/03/11/update-wvdot-confirms-multi-vehicle-accident-caused-fire-ghent-toll-plaza/?outputType=apps

They really need to go cashless along the entire roadway!

I agree. AET would improve safety and also eliminate the notorious holiday travel backups at the toll plazas, but the WV Parkways Authority doesn't seem interested. They're doing an upgrade to the existing toll collection system. I suspect there would be a strong resistance to eliminating toll taker jobs just because they are decently paying jobs for the area.

seicer

#133
All Electronic Toll Collection (ETC) is coming to the US 19 ramp tolls. I'm not sure if additional ETC-only lanes will be retrofitted at the mainline toll plazas, but it would be nice if they were segregated. ETC penetration is at 59%, rising at about 1-2% per year. I can't find the document on the Parkways Authority website, but it had cost and a lower penetration rate as the biggest justification for why ETC would not (yet) be coming to the mainline tolls.

The existing toll system and software are quite old and date to 2008-12 (which replaced the original system from 1999-2000), with some incremental upgrades since then. The hardware processors are slow, so the lanes are keyed for a speed limit of 5 MPH. The new system being implanted lane-by-lane involves replacing all hardware and moving the software to cloud-based operations.

jmacswimmer

Quote from: wriddle082 on March 11, 2024, 09:44:17 PM
Major accident at the Ghent Toll Plaza today.  Multiple fatalities.

https://www.wvva.com/2024/03/11/update-wvdot-confirms-multi-vehicle-accident-caused-fire-ghent-toll-plaza/?outputType=apps

They really need to go cashless along the entire roadway!

Admittedly wasn't alive when the fatal wreck at the Stratford CT toll plaza happened, but this one seems similar to that. And judging by some of the photos, there was some serious fire damage done to the toll plaza that'll take some time to repair. If the Stratford wreck pushed CT to eliminating tolls, I wonder if this could push the WVPA to AET on a faster timeline (presumably they're using the US 19 North Beckley ramp as a pilot and will work out any kinks there prior to potentially pushing out to the mainline).

I'm surprised the ETC penetration rate that Seicer referenced isn't higher given the WVPA's annual fee plan, but then I guess the I-77 corridor does handle a decent amount of out-of-state traffic that doesn't otherwise pass thru E-ZPass territory.
"Now, what if da Bearss were to enter the Indianapolis 5-hunnert?"
"How would they compete?"
"Let's say they rode together in a big buss."
"Is Ditka driving?"
"Of course!"
"Then I like da Bear buss."
"DA BEARSSS BUSSSS"

The Ghostbuster

The House of Delegates overwhelmingly approved a plan to remove tolls from the West Virginia Turnpike in 2013: https://wvmetronews.com/2013/04/03/house-votes-overwhelmingly-to-take-tolls-off-turnpike/. However, the proposal was nixed in 2016: https://web.archive.org/web/20210816133828/https://transportation.wv.gov/Turnpike/about/Documents/Resolution%20in%20support%20of%20the%20continuation%20of%20tolls%20on%20the%20WV%20Tu.pdf. Maybe now the tolls will be removed or they will convert to AET (if they can find the money to undertake the conversion, which may be why it hasn't happened yet).

Bitmapped

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 13, 2024, 01:01:01 PM
The House of Delegates overwhelmingly approved a plan to remove tolls from the West Virginia Turnpike in 2013: https://wvmetronews.com/2013/04/03/house-votes-overwhelmingly-to-take-tolls-off-turnpike/. However, the proposal was nixed in 2016: https://web.archive.org/web/20210816133828/https://transportation.wv.gov/Turnpike/about/Documents/Resolution%20in%20support%20of%20the%20continuation%20of%20tolls%20on%20the%20WV%20Tu.pdf. Maybe now the tolls will be removed or they will convert to AET (if they can find the money to undertake the conversion, which may be why it hasn't happened yet).

The tolls aren't going away for decades. The state issued hundreds of millions in toll revenue bonds as part of the "Roads to Prosperity" program passed in 2017.

SP Cook

The history of the bonds/tolls, in a nutshell.

- The only actual borrowing for construction on the Turnpike was for the "super 2" road built in 1954.  These bonds paid off in 1987.
- The state was broke in 1987, so it came up with the legal fiction that some how the turnpike commission (the state) owed the DOH (the state) for the four lane upgrade.  So they refinanced it all over again.  These bonds have also been paid off.   There was a lot of hot air at the time, including renaming the Turnpike Commission into this "Economic Development, Tourism and Parkways Authority", but that was just for the rubes, there was no money (legally) spent on those things, and the state already had an economic development office and a tourism office.
- The signature deal of current governor "Big Jim" Justice was to borrow $1.6B for this "roads to prosperity" program.   These are technically "general obligation bonds" and are based on "grant anticipation" (we expect the feds will give us $X in year X, so we are going to borrow the money now.)  Part of the deal was to extend, and massively raise, the turnpike tolls.  Again for PR reasons, part of the deal is that supposedly a disproportionate amount of the money would be spent in a 10 county "turnpike zone", but that really hasn't been the case.  These bonds pay off in 2046, although some other politicians believe that the part relative to the turnpike can be closed out in 2030. 

The current deal is a form of "soak the stranger".  A yearly pass is $26.50, and you can deduct it from your state taxes.   

jeffandnicole

Quote from: jmacswimmer on March 13, 2024, 09:55:05 AM
Quote from: wriddle082 on March 11, 2024, 09:44:17 PM
Major accident at the Ghent Toll Plaza today.  Multiple fatalities.

https://www.wvva.com/2024/03/11/update-wvdot-confirms-multi-vehicle-accident-caused-fire-ghent-toll-plaza/?outputType=apps

They really need to go cashless along the entire roadway!

Admittedly wasn't alive when the fatal wreck at the Stratford CT toll plaza happened, but this one seems similar to that. And judging by some of the photos, there was some serious fire damage done to the toll plaza that'll take some time to repair. If the Stratford wreck pushed CT to eliminating tolls, I wonder if this could push the WVPA to AET on a faster timeline (presumably they're using the US 19 North Beckley ramp as a pilot and will work out any kinks there prior to potentially pushing out to the mainline).

I'm surprised the ETC penetration rate that Seicer referenced isn't higher given the WVPA's annual fee plan, but then I guess the I-77 corridor does handle a decent amount of out-of-state traffic that doesn't otherwise pass thru E-ZPass territory.

There's been numerous crashes and deaths at various toll plazas since that incident, and I don't think any resulted in discontinued tolls or all ETC.

One recent example: https://www.nj.com/bergen/2024/01/driver-killed-in-fiery-wreck-at-nj-turnpike-toll-plaza.html

Bitmapped

Quote from: SP Cook on March 14, 2024, 10:29:11 AM
- The signature deal of current governor "Big Jim" Justice was to borrow $1.6B for this "roads to prosperity" program.   These are technically "general obligation bonds" and are based on "grant anticipation" (we expect the feds will give us $X in year X, so we are going to borrow the money now.)  Part of the deal was to extend, and massively raise, the turnpike tolls.  Again for PR reasons, part of the deal is that supposedly a disproportionate amount of the money would be spent in a 10 county "turnpike zone", but that really hasn't been the case.  These bonds pay off in 2046, although some other politicians believe that the part relative to the turnpike can be closed out in 2030. 

The current deal is a form of "soak the stranger".  A yearly pass is $26.50, and you can deduct it from your state taxes.   

Roads to Prosperity had two sets of bonds issued. General obligation bonds, permitted by a voter-passed constitutional amendment, were issued for projects all over the state including, inexplicably, the Beckley area widening on the Turnpike. A second set of bonds, backed solely by toll revenue on the Turnpike from increased tolls, is for projects in the 10-county area of the southern part of the state. Most of those projects are off-turnpike.

Black-Man

I've been on toll roads in upwards of a dozen states and I've yet to encounter one like the WV Turnpike. The biggest issue is not properly separating EZPass traffic. At Cheylan you could literally come up to within a few hundred yards before recognizing the dedicated EZPass lanes. They are literally encouraging the most dangerous driving tactic on a highway - the weave. They could just read this:
https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/rpt/tcstoll/pdf/best_practices.pdf

Then they would see the recommendation that the dedicated ETC lanes should be on the LEFT among other recommendations they ignore. The physical tolling area has not been upgraded in 45 years. The Service Plaza has priority over tolling?!?


Dirt Roads

Quote from: Black-Man on March 14, 2024, 05:10:26 PM
I've been on toll roads in upwards of a dozen states and I've yet to encounter one like the WV Turnpike. The biggest issue is not properly separating EZPass traffic. At Cheylan you could literally come up to within a few hundred yards before recognizing the dedicated EZPass lanes. They are literally encouraging the most dangerous driving tactic on a highway - the weave. They could just read this:
https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/rpt/tcstoll/pdf/best_practices.pdf

Then they would see the recommendation that the dedicated ETC lanes should be on the LEFT among other recommendations they ignore. The physical tolling area has not been upgraded in 45 years. The Service Plaza has priority over tolling?!?

As hard as it to believe, ETC on the West Virginia Turnpike was envisioned to be primarily truckers and thus the ETC lanes were needed in the rightmost lanes.   Even today, it seems like most of the EZPass usage on the Turnpike is still truckers (but there are a significant number of cars with EZPass).  There are very few locations north of the Mossy exit (Exit 60) that could be widened sufficiently to handle two through EZPass traffic in the left lanes, one cash-only in the middle, plus at least two lanes of Cash/EZPass for truckers on the right side (both northbound and southbound).  Note that Mossy is less than 5 miles north of the Pax toll plaza.

Nowadays, all of the toll plazas on the Turnpike stay busy throughout much of the daylight hours and are a complete nightmare before/after Holidays.  But it is going to cost so much to properly solve all of those problems, it would seem more cost effective to eliminate the toll plazas altogether. 

seicer

ETC is heavily used by commuters because of the steep discount given to residents of the counties the Turnpike travels through. You can also get a tax deduction up to $1,200/year for tolls paid with EZ-Pass.

The last serious discussion about removing the tolls was in 2015-16, when the Legislature considered doing so after all bonds were paid. At the time, the state had difficulties balancing its budget because of declining revenues. Removing the tolls would result in a loss of $90 million in yearly revenue, of which 76% came from out-of-state drivers, equating to $68 million. Over 30 years, the state would lose $2.7 billion in expected revenue. There hasn't been any serious movement since then because of the expected fuel tax increase that would be needed to cover the shortfall in revenue.

Their financial statements do not divide EZ-Pass usage by class, but the Ohio Turnpike's statements show that 63% of passenger car motorists used EZ-Pass compared to a whopping 89% of commercial truck customers. It would not surprise me if that were the reason why EZ-Pass lanes were stacked on the right.

Cost estimates were outlined for toll plaza (A, B, and C) rebuilds, and they were pretty steep. The estimates didn't outline any specifics, but it did not appear that it would be all electronic. At a minimum, there needs to be high-speed lanes separated from manual collection. That would be easy to do with the two lower plazas, but the northernmost plaza is land constricted.

Bitmapped

Quote from: seicer on March 15, 2024, 07:36:04 PM
Cost estimates were outlined for toll plaza (A, B, and C) rebuilds, and they were pretty steep. The estimates didn't outline any specifics, but it did not appear that it would be all electronic. At a minimum, there needs to be high-speed lanes separated from manual collection. That would be easy to do with the two lower plazas, but the northernmost plaza is land constricted.

Relocating the administration building could provide room for a couple more lanes at the Chelyan (northernmost) plaza. That being said, that plaza could easily be eliminated as it is not capturing a significant amount of revenue that doesn't already flow through the next (Pax) plaza. Bump up the tolls at the other plazas and the reduced administration/construction costs would make up from any lost revenue.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Bitmapped on March 17, 2024, 11:54:08 AM
Quote from: seicer on March 15, 2024, 07:36:04 PM
Cost estimates were outlined for toll plaza (A, B, and C) rebuilds, and they were pretty steep. The estimates didn't outline any specifics, but it did not appear that it would be all electronic. At a minimum, there needs to be high-speed lanes separated from manual collection. That would be easy to do with the two lower plazas, but the northernmost plaza is land constricted.

Relocating the administration building could provide room for a couple more lanes at the Chelyan (northernmost) plaza. That being said, that plaza could easily be eliminated as it is not capturing a significant amount of revenue that doesn't already flow through the next (Pax) plaza. Bump up the tolls at the other plazas and the reduced administration/construction costs would make up from any lost revenue.

No one affected by increased tolls that don't use that plaza would be in favor of such.

74/171FAN

I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

MASTERNC

Quote from: 74/171FAN on March 22, 2024, 09:34:03 PM
What happened to the EZPASS logo?  (https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10220097676432683&set=a.10220097830236528) (On I-77 SB south of CR 48)




It's been that way for a while. Just like the logos that look hand drawn on DRPA bridges from NJ to PA

SP Cook

Quote from: Bitmapped on March 14, 2024, 12:22:23 PMRoads to Prosperity had two sets of bonds issued. General obligation bonds, permitted by a voter-passed constitutional amendment, were issued for projects all over the state including, inexplicably, the Beckley area widening on the Turnpike. A second set of bonds, backed solely by toll revenue on the Turnpike from increased tolls, is for projects in the 10-county area of the southern part of the state. Most of those projects are off-turnpike.

The "explanation" is to continue the legal fiction that somehow, the turnpike (the state) "owes" the DOH (the state) for something.  So thus the Beckley widening is done "by the DOH" and they continue the tolls for more decades.

As to the fiction that, somehow, they are using the toll money to help southern WV, the dirt flying on the ground says otherwise, just as it did following the same story back in 87. 



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