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Author Topic: Interstate 81 in Syracuse  (Read 130236 times)

Plutonic Panda

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1100 on: October 23, 2021, 03:47:25 PM »



I’d like to see a summary of the comments.
Not sure that is possible given the multiple thousands that were received.
Well, it is possible just a lot of work. I’ll probably go through some of them. Hell if I get bored enough while waiting to start my job I might just give it a shot. It really should be hard just tedious work. Either pro freeway or pro removal or unrelated.
Not experienced with public comments, are you.  Just at the public hearings, the comments were much more nuanced:  "Since we're proceeding with the grid, please do X," where X is any number of things, just for one example.

NYSDOT has to respond to them all; I'd just wait for that product.
I’ve been looking at them for 10 years as a hobby. I’d lump those who say things like “since were preceding with the grid” as those who basically support the grid which they do now.
A stretch of an assumption.
Either way it gives an idea of the comments. You really seem to be against any and all notions that the grid idea just sucks and is being pushed as part of an agenda not that the richest country in the world can’t do what tons of other developing countries are doing.

I will make an assumption and say there are likely a lot of comments like mine that make it very clear the grid is the wrong way forward and I-81 needs to remain either as a tunnel or an elevated viaduct. If you can’t fathom the 10 billion dollars to tunnel it fine I’ll compromise and support the viaduct, even if that means substandard design as that is still better than a surface street.

You mean, either way it could misconstrue the comments.

At this point, I am not sure where my opinion lies -- probably just resignation that the community grid will be a reality, rather than enthusiasm over the idea.  I certainly and personally disagree with the idea that it will have some sort of restorative justice for the neighborhoods obliterated decades ago -- the area has just changed too much.  You would have to demolish and relocate all the medical and commercial facilities now in the area and totally rebuild those neighborhoods...and the new residential properties would probably be considered gentrification in the end.  So, no one wins.

We'll see how your summary, which sounds like it is already set up to be biased towards your own opinion, matches up with the official accounts.
I’m not even sure I’ll do a summary yet I may start and get burnt out. 3000+ comments isn’t a small amount of change. If I do I’ll report as accurately as possible because I am genuinely curious to see how those interested really think.
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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1101 on: October 23, 2021, 03:55:41 PM »

I’m not even sure I’ll do a summary yet I may start and get burnt out. 3000+ comments isn’t a small amount of change. If I do I’ll report as accurately as possible because I am genuinely curious to see how those interested really think.

Read 50 comments. Search for the keywords that keep appearing and note how many results you get for each keyword.

Choose your keywords carefully; "grid" doesn't tell you whether the person is for or against it.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1102 on: October 23, 2021, 05:06:08 PM »

I’m not even sure I’ll do a summary yet I may start and get burnt out. 3000+ comments isn’t a small amount of change. If I do I’ll report as accurately as possible because I am genuinely curious to see how those interested really think.

Read 50 comments. Search for the keywords that keep appearing and note how many results you get for each keyword.

Choose your keywords carefully; "grid" doesn't tell you whether the person is for or against it.
“Grid” specifically doesn’t say much but a statement like “since we’re building the grid” seems to be a decent indicator.
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kalvado

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1103 on: October 23, 2021, 06:30:57 PM »

I’m not even sure I’ll do a summary yet I may start and get burnt out. 3000+ comments isn’t a small amount of change. If I do I’ll report as accurately as possible because I am genuinely curious to see how those interested really think.

Read 50 comments. Search for the keywords that keep appearing and note how many results you get for each keyword.

Choose your keywords carefully; "grid" doesn't tell you whether the person is for or against it.
“Grid” specifically doesn’t say much but a statement like “since we’re building the grid” seems to be a decent indicator.
Too long
Social justice, reconnect, walkable may be better ones
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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1104 on: October 23, 2021, 08:32:25 PM »

These days, there's no consideration for how things work together as a system, only how corridors will work in isolation (not just roads, either... bike, pedestrian, and transit infrastructure often has the same problem).  Just look at how all the traffic analysis for I-81 looks at trips to/from downtown, or north-south through the area, with little to no attention paid to how it affects trips from the western suburbs to/from the south, or traffic passing through between the Finger Lakes/Lake Ontario and the Southern Tier/PA.  While the fastest route will still likely be all freeway due to traffic lights, traffic will have to go way out of the way, going all the way across the city and then most of the way back just to make what is now a direct movement.  It's bad enough that traffic from many of the western suburbs has to take non-freeway routes to get around so much of the area already.

Exactly... I am convinced that people with a proper understanding of I-81's function as part of the regional road network are either not involved in the project at all, or have simply been drowned out by the cacophony of those calling for the viaduct removal.

I have no hesitation in saying that the viaduct removal is the single worst project on the interstate system in my lifetime - and quite possibly of all time - and it's not even close. Anyone can tell just by looking at a map for five seconds what a nightmare it's going to be for traffic going between the western suburbs and points south, and that's not even factoring in the long-distance traffic, some of which I still believe is going to try using the grid, making it more like gridlock.

Compare it with something like the plans for I-83 reconstruction in Harrisburg and it's like night and day. One represents the type of vision and forward-thinking mindset that you'd expect from a first world country, while the other is completely backwards and a total reversal from the type of transportation investment we need... I'd call it third-world, but that would be giving it too much credit, because at least in a third-world country, a project would actively make things better, but this actively, intentionally, and purposefully, makes the system worse. Fourth-world, maybe, if there even is such a thing?


It will be very interesting to see how it functions, in any case - NY is a state where everything is "route X" (at least it is west of the Capital District), so I can see potential for confusion.

Yeah, something about the "Business" I-81 just doesn't sit well with me. Maybe it's the fact that most of it isn't really a business route. What relevance does that designation have for someone going from I-90 east to I-81 north, for example? I'd much rather it stayed part of the existing system, preferably as a 3di, but even an X81 state route could work.
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vdeane

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1105 on: October 23, 2021, 09:52:04 PM »

These days, there's no consideration for how things work together as a system, only how corridors will work in isolation (not just roads, either... bike, pedestrian, and transit infrastructure often has the same problem).  Just look at how all the traffic analysis for I-81 looks at trips to/from downtown, or north-south through the area, with little to no attention paid to how it affects trips from the western suburbs to/from the south, or traffic passing through between the Finger Lakes/Lake Ontario and the Southern Tier/PA.  While the fastest route will still likely be all freeway due to traffic lights, traffic will have to go way out of the way, going all the way across the city and then most of the way back just to make what is now a direct movement.  It's bad enough that traffic from many of the western suburbs has to take non-freeway routes to get around so much of the area already.

Exactly... I am convinced that people with a proper understanding of I-81's function as part of the regional road network are either not involved in the project at all, or have simply been drowned out by the cacophony of those calling for the viaduct removal.

I have no hesitation in saying that the viaduct removal is the single worst project on the interstate system in my lifetime - and quite possibly of all time - and it's not even close. Anyone can tell just by looking at a map for five seconds what a nightmare it's going to be for traffic going between the western suburbs and points south, and that's not even factoring in the long-distance traffic, some of which I still believe is going to try using the grid, making it more like gridlock.

Compare it with something like the plans for I-83 reconstruction in Harrisburg and it's like night and day. One represents the type of vision and forward-thinking mindset that you'd expect from a first world country, while the other is completely backwards and a total reversal from the type of transportation investment we need... I'd call it third-world, but that would be giving it too much credit, because at least in a third-world country, a project would actively make things better, but this actively, intentionally, and purposefully, makes the system worse. Fourth-world, maybe, if there even is such a thing?


It will be very interesting to see how it functions, in any case - NY is a state where everything is "route X" (at least it is west of the Capital District), so I can see potential for confusion.

Yeah, something about the "Business" I-81 just doesn't sit well with me. Maybe it's the fact that most of it isn't really a business route. What relevance does that designation have for someone going from I-90 east to I-81 north, for example? I'd much rather it stayed part of the existing system, preferably as a 3di, but even an X81 state route could work.
An article I was reading about infrastructure said we're living off the investments our grandparents made.  That's when it hit me - when it comes to infrastructure, we're Rome, right after the fall of the Empire.  Once the Empire fell, nobody was able to maintain and improve the advanced infrastructure like the aqueducts.  People were able to live off it for a time, but eventually it became unusable, and Europe fell into the Dark Ages.  That's where we are.  We're seemingly no longer able to build, living off past investments, praying that we'll continue to be able to do so for the foreseeable future.  But eventually, it will fail, and the next Dark Age will be upon us.  Heck, it's only recently that we're even beginning to rediscover the concrete mix the Romans used that lasted so long that their roads were able to last over a thousand years after maintenance stopped.

I do hope someone commented about the business I-81 thing.  Calling it NY 581 or something would be far more preferable.  I'd rather a 3di for the freeway portion, but it seems like the NY division of FHWA won't sign off without the missing movements at the I-690 interchange (I can't imagine what other ROW takings the report could be referring to, and FHWA is known to be against partial interchanges, especially between interstates).

(personal opinion)
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vdeane

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1106 on: January 09, 2022, 08:41:35 PM »

Those who have been hoping that Hochul will put a stop to this project were surely very disappointed in the state of the state speech in which she mentioned removing I-81 and other roads.  From the accompanying policy book:
Quote
The   Interstate   81   (I-81)   project   area   serves   as   an   essential   travel   corridor   for   the   
Central   New   York   Region,   especially   the   downtown   Syracuse   area,   and   has   been   
highlighted   by   both   President   Biden   and   Secretary   Buttigieg   as   reflective   of   the   
Administration’s   priorities   on   equity,   economic   opportunity,   and   transforming   
neighborhoods   left   behind.

This   project   will   address   the   I-81   geometric,   structural,   and   safety   concerns   of   the   
viaduct   by   replacing   the   elevated   structure   with   a   community   grid   that   would   
disperse   traffic   along   local   north-south   streets.   It   will   create   a   new   high-speed   
business   loop   and   reconnect   neighborhoods   severed   by   construction   of   the   
interstate,   thereby   creating   opportunities   for   mixed-use   residential   and   commercial   
development.   The   project   would   also   construct   safe   pedestrian   and   bicycle   access   
for   users   of   all   ages   and   abilities   within   the   downtown   core.

Building   on   the   I-81   project,   Connecting   the   New   15th   Ward   is   a   plan   to   reimagine   
the   adjacent   118-acre   East   Adams   neighborhood,   where   over   1,000   units   of   public   
housing   are   currently   located.   The   revitalization   project   would   create   a   mixed-use,   
mixed-income   neighborhood   where   families   — especially   children   — can   thrive   and   
have   genuine   opportunities   for   successful   futures.
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BlueOutback7

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1107 on: January 09, 2022, 08:54:14 PM »

Looks like Syracuse will be stuck with a bottleneck of a boulevard through downtown. I wish they could trench it or something. Will I-81 be converted to mile based numbering once it is rerouted on the existing I-481?

machias

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1108 on: January 09, 2022, 09:14:17 PM »

Looks like Syracuse will be stuck with a bottleneck of a boulevard through downtown. I wish they could trench it or something. Will I-81 be converted to mile based numbering once it is rerouted on the existing I-481?


It looks like I-81, I-481/NY 481, and BL 81 (what a dumb designation) will all have distance based exit numbering.  I believe I-690/NY 690 will be converted at the same time, but I'm not certain about that.
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vdeane

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1109 on: January 09, 2022, 09:28:51 PM »

Looks like Syracuse will be stuck with a bottleneck of a boulevard through downtown. I wish they could trench it or something. Will I-81 be converted to mile based numbering once it is rerouted on the existing I-481?


It looks like I-81, I-481/NY 481, and BL 81 (what a dumb designation) will all have distance based exit numbering.  I believe I-690/NY 690 will be converted at the same time, but I'm not certain about that.
That's what I saw when I was looking at some signing plans in the DDR/DEIS (starting around page 203 of Appendix A-6): https://parsonsecmpublic.s3.amazonaws.com/I-81-DEIS/07-2021/Appendix%20A-6_Access%20Modification%20Report_July%202021.pdf
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BlueOutback7

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1110 on: January 09, 2022, 09:37:32 PM »

I see that they even have the new numbers listed in that document. The Thruway interchange will become Exit 91 once this is finished. The northern end at future BL I-81 will be Exits 96A-B just to name a few.

Great Lakes Roads

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1111 on: January 09, 2022, 10:05:00 PM »

Looks like Syracuse will be stuck with a bottleneck of a boulevard through downtown. I wish they could trench it or something. Will I-81 be converted to mile based numbering once it is rerouted on the existing I-481?


It looks like I-81, I-481/NY 481, and BL 81 (what a dumb designation) will all have distance based exit numbering.  I believe I-690/NY 690 will be converted at the same time, but I'm not certain about that.

Yes, I-690/NY 690 will also be getting new distance-based exit numbering.
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yakra

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1112 on: January 10, 2022, 12:51:37 PM »

Quote
a   new   high-speed   business   loop
LOL. Compared to?
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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1113 on: January 10, 2022, 12:57:09 PM »

Quote
a   new   high-speed   business   loop
LOL. Compared to?

I was thinking that I-81BL would be somewhat similar to I-95BL in Fayetteville, NC (freeway on both ends, boulevard in middle).
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Rothman

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1114 on: January 10, 2022, 11:33:00 PM »

Quote
a   new   high-speed   business   loop
LOL. Compared to?
Hm.  High-speed BL with an at-grade in the middle...
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BlueOutback7

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1115 on: January 11, 2022, 08:02:32 AM »

Quote
a   new   high-speed   business   loop
LOL. Compared to?

I was thinking that I-81BL would be somewhat similar to I-95BL in Fayetteville, NC (freeway on both ends, boulevard in middle).

It actually would be kind of similar to BL I-95 in Fayetteville. But wouldn’t this be also called 81? In other words, you would basically have two 81’s? This is why there are barely any business Interstates in the Northeast other than BL I-83 and BL I-376. “Take 81 south and get off at 81.”
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 08:05:42 AM by BlueOutback7 »
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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1116 on: January 11, 2022, 08:23:47 AM »

Maybe if it was actually signed as I-81B, as New York likes their suffixes. Normally, I would say that there needs to be an 81A before 81B could exist, but New York has a lot of skipped suffixes.
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Roadsguy

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1117 on: January 11, 2022, 08:32:30 AM »

Quote
a   new   high-speed   business   loop
LOL. Compared to?

I was thinking that I-81BL would be somewhat similar to I-95BL in Fayetteville, NC (freeway on both ends, boulevard in middle).

It actually would be kind of similar to BL I-95 in Fayetteville. But wouldn’t this be also called 81? In other words, you would basically have two 81’s? This is why there are barely any business Interstates in the Northeast other than BL I-83 and BL I-376. “Take 81 south and get off at 81.”

Or call it "Business 81" like the former Business 40 in North Carolina that apparently everyone still calls Business 40 anyway.
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Jim

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1118 on: January 11, 2022, 09:18:21 AM »

Maybe I've said all of this somewhere in the 45 pages of this thread, but we're talking about designations here now so I'll summarize my thoughts on it.

I really don't like the idea of using an Interstate business loop designation and green shield for the old I-81 routing once that designation moves onto the current I-481.  At the very least, a 3di number with genuine red-white-and-blue I shields need to be used for the fully freeway segments north of the Thruway and south of I-690.  New York frequently uses a state touring route designation with the same number to continue 3di routes beyond portions that are part of the Interstate system.  So use a 3di number for the new route, and for the short portion that won't be a freeway in the middle (or even the whole segment between the Thruway and I-690), designate and sign it as a state touring route of the same number.  This option gives a single number for the old I-81 segment, maintains most of it as a properly-signed Interstate highway, and doesn't introduce what would be the only Interstate business loop northeast of the two in PA and one which is not even a proper use of that type of route designation.
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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1119 on: January 11, 2022, 03:17:34 PM »

^ 3DI <-> 3DNY <-> 3DI, all the same number?
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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1120 on: January 11, 2022, 03:41:22 PM »

^ 3DI <-> 3DNY <-> 3DI, all the same number?

Yes, admittedly all of the others have the 3DNY on just one end of a 3DI (I think), but this seems way better to me than BL I-81.
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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1121 on: January 11, 2022, 03:54:02 PM »

Is there a date when the Interstate 481-to-81 conversion will occur? I would prefer that it happened before the freeway-to-community boulevard construction occurs.
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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1122 on: January 11, 2022, 03:56:05 PM »

^ 3DI <-> 3DNY <-> 3DI, all the same number?

Yes, admittedly all of the others have the 3DNY on just one end of a 3DI (I think), but this seems way better to me than BL I-81.
I would be OK with entire southern portion being 3DNY
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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1123 on: January 12, 2022, 09:06:47 AM »

Those who have been hoping that Hochul will put a stop to this project were surely very disappointed in the state of the state speech in which she mentioned removing I-81 and other roads.  From the accompanying policy book:
Quote
The   Interstate   81   (I-81)   project   area   serves   as   an   essential   travel   corridor   for   the   
Central   New   York   Region,   especially   the   downtown   Syracuse   area,   and   has   been   
highlighted   by   both   President   Biden   and   Secretary   Buttigieg   as   reflective   of   the   
Administration’s   priorities   on   equity,   economic   opportunity,   and   transforming   
neighborhoods   left   behind.

This   project   will   address   the   I-81   geometric,   structural,   and   safety   concerns   of   the   
viaduct   by   replacing   the   elevated   structure   with   a   community   grid   that   would   
disperse   traffic   along   local   north-south   streets.   It   will   create   a   new   high-speed   
business   loop   and   reconnect   neighborhoods   severed   by   construction   of   the   
interstate,   thereby   creating   opportunities   for   mixed-use   residential   and   commercial   
development.   The   project   would   also   construct   safe   pedestrian   and   bicycle   access   
for   users   of   all   ages   and   abilities   within   the   downtown   core.

Building   on   the   I-81   project,   Connecting   the   New   15th   Ward   is   a   plan   to   reimagine   
the   adjacent   118-acre   East   Adams   neighborhood,   where   over   1,000   units   of   public   
housing   are   currently   located.   The   revitalization   project   would   create   a   mixed-use,   
mixed-income   neighborhood   where   families   — especially   children   — can   thrive   and   
have   genuine   opportunities   for   successful   futures.

It's happening, folks.
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The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

Rothman

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Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
« Reply #1124 on: January 12, 2022, 10:12:22 AM »

Those who have been hoping that Hochul will put a stop to this project were surely very disappointed in the state of the state speech in which she mentioned removing I-81 and other roads.  From the accompanying policy book:
Quote
TheInterstate81(I-81)projectareaservesasanessentialtravelcorridorforthe
CentralNewYorkRegion,especiallythedowntownSyracusearea,andhasbeen
highlightedbybothPresidentBidenandSecretaryButtigiegasreflectiveofthe
Administration’sprioritiesonequity,economicopportunity,andtransforming
neighborhoodsleftbehind.

ThisprojectwilladdresstheI-81geometric,structural,andsafetyconcernsofthe
viaductbyreplacingtheelevatedstructurewithacommunitygridthatwould
dispersetrafficalonglocalnorth-southstreets.Itwillcreateanewhigh-speed
businessloopandreconnectneighborhoodsseveredbyconstructionofthe
interstate,therebycreatingopportunitiesformixed-useresidentialandcommercial
development.Theprojectwouldalsoconstructsafepedestrianandbicycleaccess
forusersofallagesandabilitieswithinthedowntowncore.

BuildingontheI-81project,ConnectingtheNew15thWardisaplantoreimagine
theadjacent118-acreEastAdamsneighborhood,whereover1,000unitsofpublic
housingarecurrentlylocated.Therevitalizationprojectwouldcreateamixed-use,
mixed-incomeneighborhoodwherefamilies— especiallychildren— canthriveand
havegenuineopportunitiesforsuccessfulfutures.

It's happening, folks.
I am surprised that there are those that still think there's a chance that the Community Grid may not happen.  It's essentially been set in stone for quite a while.
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Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

 


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