Pennsylvania

[empirestate]

Signage in the NYC area recently dropped instances of "New England" in favor of specific cities. Assuming that was a good idea, is there a reason it wouldn't be likewise in PA?

Good point.  I thought the phase-out of New England as a listed I-95 northbound destination in northern NJ & NYC was in response to a FHWA (?) directive now prohibiting such general locales/regions.

If true, then either Newburgh, NY, Danbury, CT or Hartford, CT should be used instead of New England.

How come not Boston?

[noelbotevera]

I honestly don't mind PennDOT using "New England" as the control city for I-84, considering it's how most people in Pennsylvania and New England get between the two.

Honestly, I'd like to see more long-distance control cities in Pennsylvania. Only IDOT is more parochial when it comes to control cities. I'd also like to see more leeway in the number of control cities if there are multiple major cities served by a highway. Here's how I'd list the control cities on the Interstates in Pennsylvania...


I-70 East

"Pittsburgh" between the West Virginia state line and I-79
"Baltimore | Washington DC" between I-79 and the Pennsylvania Turnpike (west junction)
"Harrisburg | Philadelphia | Baltimore | Washington DC" along the multiplex with the Pennsylvania Turnpike
"Baltimore | Washington DC" between the Pennsylvania Turnpike (east junction) and the Maryland state line


I-70 West

"Pittsburgh | Columbus" between the Maryland state line and the Pennsylvania Turnpike (east junction)
"Pittsburgh | Columbus" along the multiplex with the Pennsylvania Turnpike
"Wheeling | Columbus" between the Pennsylvania Turnpike (west junction) and the West Virginia state line


I-76 (PA Turnpike) East

"Pittsburgh" between the Ohio state line and I-79
"Harrisburg | Philadelphia" between I-79 and I-70 (west junction)
"Harrisburg | Philadelphia | Baltimore | Washington DC" along the multiplex with I-70
"Harrisburg | Philadelphia" between I-70 (east junction) and I-83
"Philadelphia" between I-83 and I-276
"Philadelphia" between the Pennsylvania Turnpike and downtown Philadelphia
"Camden | Atlantic City" between downtown Philadelphia and the New Jersey state line
"Trenton | New York City" on I-276 East
"Trenton | New York City" on I-95 North


I-76 (PA Turnpike) West

"Philadelphia" on I-95 South
"Harrisburg | Pittsburgh" on I-276 West
"Harrisburg | Pittsburgh" between I-276 and I-283
"Pittsburgh" between I-283 and I-70 (east junction)
"Pittsburgh | Columbus" along the multiplex with I-70
"Pittsburgh" between I-70 (west junction) and I-376 (east junction)
"Youngstown | Cleveland" between I-376 (east junction) and the Ohio state line


I-78 East

"Allentown | New York City" between I-81 and U.S. 22 (east junction)
"Newark | New York City" between U.S. 22 (east junction) and the New Jersey state line


I-78 West

"Allentown | Harrisburg" between the New Jersey state line and PA 309
"Harrisburg" between PA 309 and I-81


I-79 North

"Pittsburgh" between the West Virginia state line and I-376
"Erie" between I-376 and PA 5


I-79 South

"Pittsburgh" between PA 5 and I-279
"Morgantown" between I-279 and the West Virginia state line


I-80 East

"State College | New York City" between the Ohio state line and I-99 (future west junction)
"Williamsport | New York City" along the future multiplex with I-99
"Hazleton | New York City" between I-99 (future east junction) and I-81
"New York City" between I-81 and the New Jersey state line


I-80 West

"Hazleton | Cleveland" between the New Jersey state line and I-81
"Williamsport | Cleveland" between I-81 and I-180
"State College | Cleveland" between I-180 and I-99 (future west junction)
"DuBois | Cleveland" between I-99 (future west junction) and U.S. 219
"Clarion | Cleveland" between U.S. 219 and PA 68
"Sharon | Cleveland" between PA 68 and I-376
"Youngstown | Cleveland" between I-376 and the Ohio state line


I-81 North

"Harrisburg" between the Maryland state line and I-83
"Wilkes-Barre | Scranton" between I-83 and PA 29
"Scranton" between PA 29 and I-84/I-380
"Binghamton | Syracuse" between I-84/I-380 and the New York state line


I-81 South

"Scranton | Wilkes-Barre" between the New York state line and I-84/I-380
"Wilkes-Barre" between I-84/I-380 and PA 309
"Harrisburg" between PA 309 and I-83
"Hagerstown" between I-83 and the Maryland state line


I-83 North

"York" between the Maryland state line and I-83 Business
"Harrisburg" between I-83 Business and PA 581
"Downtown Harrisburg | STATE CAPITOL" between PA 581 and 2nd Street in Harrisburg
"Hershey" between PA 230 and U.S. 322 (south junction)
Allentown | Wilkes-Barre between U.S. 322 (south junction) and I-81


I-83 South

"Harrisburg | Harrisburg Int'l Airport" between I-81 and U.S. 322 (south junction)
"Downtown Harrisburg | STATE CAPITOL" between U.S. 322 (south junction) and 2nd Street in Harrisburg
"York | Baltimore" between 2nd Street in Harrisburg and U.S. 30
"Baltimore" between U.S. 30 and the Maryland state line


I-84 East

"New York City | New England" along the multiplex with I-380
"Milford | New England" from I-380 to U.S. 6
"Newburgh | New England" from U.S. 6 to the New York state line

I-84 West

"Scranton" from the New York state line to I-81


I-86 East

"Jamestown" from I-90 to the New York state line


I-86 West

"Erie | Cleveland" from the New York state line to I-90


I-90 East

"Erie | Buffalo" from the Ohio state line to I-79
"Buffalo" from I-79 to the New York state line


I-90 West

"Erie | Cleveland" from the New York state line to PA 290
"Cleveland" from PA 290 to the Ohio state line


I-95 North

"Philadelphia" from the Delaware state line to I-476
"Philadelphia Int'l Airport | Philadelphia" from I-476 to Philadelphia International Airport
"Philadelphia" from Philadelphia International Airport to PA 291
NONE from PA 291 to I-676
"Trenton | New York City" from I-676 to the New Jersey state line


I-95 South

"Philadelphia" from the New Jersey state line to I-676
"Philadelphia Int'l Airport | Wilmington" from I-676 to Philadelphia International Airport
"Wilmington | Baltimore" from Philadelphia International Airport to the Delaware state line


I-99 North

"Altoona" from the Pennsylvania Turnpike to U.S. 220 Business in Altoona
"State College" from U.S. 220 Business in Altoona to U.S. 322 Business
"Penn State Univ | Williamsport" from U.S. 322 Business to U.S. 322 (east junction)
"Williamsport" from U.S. 322 (east junction) to I-80 (future west junction)


I-99 South

"State College" from I-80 to U.S. 322 (east junction)
"Altoona" from U.S. 322 (east junction) to 17th Street in Altoona
"Bedford | Cumberland MD" from 17th Street in Altoona to the Pennsylvania Turnpike

My attempt #2 (I failed at NJ)


I-70 EB (West of Exit 75/New Stanton int.)
Ohio State Line to Milepost 17
Pittsburgh - Breezewood

Milepost 17 to Interchange 75 (PA Tpk.)
Breezewood - Baltimore

I-70 EB - East of Breezewood
Baltimore - Washington D.C.

I-70 WB - East of Breezewood
Breezewood - Columbus

I-70 WB - West of New Stanton
New Stanton Int. to Milepost 21
Pittsburgh - Columbus

Milepost 17 to Ohio State Line
Wheeling - Columbus


I-76 EB
Ohio State Line to Milepost 31
Pittsburgh - Butler

Milepost 31.1 to Milepost 57.9
Pittsburgh - New Stanton

Milepost 58 to Milepost 76
Indianapolis - New Stanton

Milepost 76.1 to Milepost 111
Stoystown

Milepost 111.1 to Milepost 161.7
Breezewood - Baltimore

Milepost 161.8 to Milepost 227
Syracuse - Harrisburg

Milepost 227.1 to Milepost 250
Harrisburg - Hershey

Milepost 250.1 to Milepost 326.4
New York City - Philadelphia OR Valley Forge

Milepost 326.5 to New Jersey State Line
Camden - New York City

I-76 WB
NJ State Line to Milepost 326.2
Philadelphia - Harrisburg

Milepost 326.1 to Milepost 225
Harrisburg - Syracuse

Milepost 225.1 to Milepost 160.9
Breezewood - Washington D.C.

Milepost 160.8 to Milepost 109.8
Stoystown - Columbus

Milepost 109.7 to Milepost 74.5
Columbus - Pittsburgh

Milepost 74.4 to Milepost 56.7
Pittsburgh - Cleveland

Milepost 56.6 to Ohio State Line
Cleveland


I-78 EB:
Western Terminus to Milepost 50.1
Allentown - New York City

Milepost 50.2 to Milepost 66.7
Bethlehem - New York City

Milepost 66.8 to NJ State Line
Newark - New York City

I-78 WB
NJ State Line to Milepost 49.1
Allentown - Harrisburg

Milepost 49 to Western Terminus
Harrisburg - Syracuse

I-79 NB
W. VA State Line to Milepost 35.6
Columbus - Erie

Milepost 41 to Milepost 117
Cleveland - Erie

Milepost 117.1 to Northern Terminus
Buffalo - Cleveland

I-79 SB
Northern Terminus to Milepost 115
Cleveland - New York City

Milepost 114.1 to Milepost 40.9
Columbus - Pittsburgh

Milepost 35 to W. Va State Line
Charleston


I-80 EB
Ohio State Line to Milepost 19.8
Erie - Pittsburgh

Milepost 19.9 to Milepost 71
Harrisburg

Milepost 71.1 to Milepost 101.9
Ebensburgh - State College

Milepost 102 to Milepost 162
State College - Bedford

Milepost 162.1 to Milepost 211
Rochester

Milepost 211.1 to Milepost 261.5
Scranton - Williamsport

Milepost 261.6 to NJ State Line
New York City - Stroudsburg

I-80 WB:
NJ State Line to Milepost 209
Harrisburg - Williamsport

Milepost 208.9 to Milepost 159
Bedford - Lock Haven

Milepost 158.9 to Milepost 69
Cleveland

Milepost 68.9 to Milepost 17
Pittsburgh - Chicago

Milepost 16.9 to NJ State Line
Chicago - Cleveland


I-81 NB
MD State Line to Milepost 22.3
Chambersburg - Harrisburg

Milepost 22.4 to Milepost 77.2
Harrisburg - Allentown

Milepost 77.3 to Milepost 150
Allentown - Syracuse

Milepost 150.1 to New York State Line
Scranton - Syracuse

SB
NY State Line to Milepost 169
Scranton - Pittsburgh

Milepost 168.9 to Milepost 90
Allentown - Harrisburg

Milepost 89.9 to Milepost 51.2
Pittsburgh - Harrisburg

Milepost 51.1 to Milepost 8
Chambersburg - Carlisle

Milepost 7.9 to MD State Line
Baltimore - Hagerstown


I-83 NB
MD State Line to Milepost 24
York- Harrisburg

Milepost 24.1 to Milepost 41.3
Harrisburg - Philadelphia

Milepost 41.4 to Northern Terminus
Allentown

I-83 SB
Northern Terminus to Milepost 38.9
Philadelphia - Harrisburg

Milepost 38.8 to Milepost 16.8
York - Baltimore

Milepost 16.7 to MD State Line
Baltimore

I-84 EB
Hartford - Boston


I-84 WB
Syracuse - New York City


I-86 EB
New York City - Albany

I-86 WB
Buffalo - Cleveland

I-90 EB
Ohio State Line to Milepost 23
Albany - Pittsburgh

Milepost 23.1 to NY State Line
Buffalo - Rochester

I-90 WB
NY State Line to Milepost 22
Cleveland - Toledo

Milepost 21.9 to OH State Line
Cleveland - Chicago

I-95 NB
Delaware State Line to Milepost 10
Chester - Allentown

Milepost 10.1 to Milepost 39.8
Trenton - New York City

Milepost 39.9 to NJ State Line
New York City

I-95 SB
NJ State Line to Milepost 34.5
Philadelphia - Edgemoor

Milepost 34.4 to Milepost 19.2
Penns Landing - Central City

Milepost 22.1 to Milepost 12.8
Central City

Milepost 12.7 to Milepost 9.9
Philadelphia International Airport

Milepost 9.8 to Delaware State Line
Chester - Wilmington (OR Allentown)


I-99 NB
Southern Terminus to Milepost 29
Ebensburgh

Milepost 29.1 to Milepost 74
State College - New York City

Milepost 74.1 to I-80 (not using "Northern Terminus")
N.Y. City - Cleveland

I-99 SB
I-80 to Milepost 72
State College

Milepost 71.9 to Milepost 27.9
Ebensburgh

Milepost 27.8 to Southern Terminus
Bedford



Side note: Feel free to move these posts, mods! 

[CentralPAGal]

Well, I am going to take this opportunity to ask my regular question:  Anyone got any serious "decade of investment" action to report.  FWIW, I still read that the PA 147 freeway bridge across the W Branch Susquehanna is going to bid Aug 15.  And that is a real biggie.

I seem to recall hearing that the 322 Potters Mill project has started

Edit:http://www.centredaily.com/2015/03/12/4647755/work-begins-on-us-322-improvements.html

[SteveG1988]

On I-81 near I-78 you get Trucker Notice signs to use I-81 to connect to I-84 to get to New England instead of using I-78. I normally use I-78 to I-287 and connect to I-84 via I-684

[roadman]

I had to look this one up—the PennDOT spec drawing for the assembly is below.

“New England” makes a bit more sense considered in the context of the I-81 North - To I-84 shields and legend above, and previously, there had been supplemental signs “TRUCKS - USE I-81 and I-84 to New England”, but I still don’t like its use as a control point.

I wonder if this signals a shift in thinking at PennDOT, and future I-80 signage will likewise include NYC as a control city.

Why Wilkes-Barre and not Scranton (which is the junction of I-81 and I-84)?

[PHLBOS]

Signage in the NYC area recently dropped instances of "New England" in favor of specific cities. Assuming that was a good idea, is there a reason it wouldn't be likewise in PA?

Good point.  I thought the phase-out of New England as a listed I-95 northbound destination in northern NJ & NYC was in response to a FHWA (?) directive now prohibiting such general locales/regions.

If true, then either Newburgh, NY, Danbury, CT or Hartford, CT should be used instead of New England.

How come not Boston?

Unlike the above-listed cities; I-84 (while carrying Boston-bound traffic) ends nowhere near Boston.  Heck, it's only just over 7 miles long in (south/central) Massachusetts.

Boston doesn't even start appearing as a listed eastbound destination along I-84 until one is actually in Hartford.  While such doesn't change the fact that I-84 itself doesn't go near Boston; having it listed as a destination in that area and further east makes more sense due to the closer proximity and the fact that MA borders CT (PA does not).

[empirestate]

Signage in the NYC area recently dropped instances of "New England" in favor of specific cities. Assuming that was a good idea, is there a reason it wouldn't be likewise in PA?

Good point.  I thought the phase-out of New England as a listed I-95 northbound destination in northern NJ & NYC was in response to a FHWA (?) directive now prohibiting such general locales/regions.

If true, then either Newburgh, NY, Danbury, CT or Hartford, CT should be used instead of New England.

How come not Boston?

Unlike the above-listed cities; I-84 (while carrying Boston-bound traffic) ends nowhere near Boston.  Heck, it's only just over 7 miles long in (south/central) Massachusetts.

True, but are control cities really supposed to be chosen based on whether they're actually located on the numbered routes? If so, we'd have to change "New York City" on these signs, and a lot of others around the country as well!

Boston doesn't even start appearing as a listed eastbound destination along I-84 until one is actually in Hartford.  While such doesn't change the fact that I-84 itself doesn't go near Boston; having it listed as a destination in that area and further east makes more sense due to the closer proximity and the fact that MA borders CT (PA does not).

I would agree that skipping over Hartford is a little unpalatable; it is another capital city, if nothing else, and it would help to show that I-84 goes through Connecticut on its way to the rest of New England. I would be fine with skipping Newburgh and Danbury as primary control cities, leaving them more as intermediate destinations.

But I think ultimately, if the wording we're trying to replace is "New England", then "Boston" comes closer, overall, to doing so. And we only get one choice on this particular sign; after Scranton, of course, we can start getting signs for "Newburgh/Boston", "Danbury/Boston" and "Hartford/Boston".

[PHLBOS]

True, but are control cities really supposed to be chosen based on whether they're actually located on the numbered routes? If so, we'd have to change "New York City" on these signs, and a lot of others around the country as well!

The main difference with the NYC example(s) vs. signing I-84 for Boston west of Hartford is that (and you mentioned it) is that there is no capital city nor large metropolitan city between I-80/81 and NYC (via I-80).  Similar can be said regarding I-95 northbound being signed for NYC in MD and even as far south as Alexandria, VA.  Since one can bypass Philly (the next large metropolitan city between Baltimore & NYC) and Trenton (the nearest capital city between Baltimore & NYC) via I-295 in DE to the NJTP and head towards the Big Apple from there.

But I think ultimately, if the wording we're trying to replace is "New England", then "Boston" comes closer, overall, to doing so. And we only get one choice on this particular sign; after Scranton, of course, we can start getting signs for "Newburgh/Boston", "Danbury/Boston" and "Hartford/Boston".

One needs to realize (and this is coming from a native New Englander here) that New England is a 6-state region (for those that don't know: CT, MA, ME, NH, RI & VT).  Not every New England-bound traveler along I-84 eastbound is heading towards Boston or even eastern Massachusetts for that matter.  Using a CT city (the I-84 passes through or near like Danbury or Hartford) makes more sense because it's the first New England state one encounters via I-84.

Why Wilkes-Barre and not Scranton (which is the junction of I-81 and I-84)?

Probably because one goes through Wilkes-Barre prior to Scranton (via I-81 northbound).

[empirestate]

True, but are control cities really supposed to be chosen based on whether they're actually located on the numbered routes? If so, we'd have to change "New York City" on these signs, and a lot of others around the country as well!

The main difference with the NYC example(s) vs. signing I-84 for Boston west of Hartford is that (and you mentioned it) is that there is no capital city nor large metropolitan city between I-80/81 and NYC (via I-80).  Similar can be said regarding I-95 northbound being signed for NYC in MD and even as far south as Alexandria, VA.  Since one can bypass Philly (the next large metropolitan city between Baltimore & NYC) and Trenton (the nearest capital city between Baltimore & NYC) via I-295 in DE to the NJTP and head towards the Big Apple from there.

OK. That argument makes a lot more sense to me than "the I-84 designation stops short of Boston, so Boston can't be a control city."

So, thinking along those lines, I'd be happy with Hartford, but I'd pass over Newburgh or Danbury.

But I think ultimately, if the wording we're trying to replace is "New England", then "Boston" comes closer, overall, to doing so. And we only get one choice on this particular sign; after Scranton, of course, we can start getting signs for "Newburgh/Boston", "Danbury/Boston" and "Hartford/Boston".

One needs to realize (and this is coming from a native New Englander here) that New England is a 6-state region (for those that don't know: CT, MA, ME, NH, RI & VT).  Not every New England-bound traveler along I-84 eastbound is heading towards Boston or even eastern Massachusetts for that matter.  Using a CT city (the I-84 passes through or near like Danbury or Hartford) makes more sense because it's the first New England state one encounters via I-84.

One certainly does realize this (and I personally include parts of one more state in the definition, but that's another story). But just as not every New England-bound traveler is headed for Boston, at the same time not every New England-bound traveler is not headed to Boston. So unless we have exact statistics for what people's destinations are, it's hard to choose control cities based on where people may or may not be headed.

Again, though, I'm perfectly happy with Hartford, being a capital city in the first part of New England you'd reach, as well as an important junction point where you can head north on I-91 to western and northern New England, keep going on I-84 towards Boston, or even head south for New Haven and the Sound shore.

But I think the salient point of my argument, which I don't think has been successfully refuted yet, is that if you had to replace the phrase "New England" with the name of one city to denote the region as a whole, that city would certainly be Boston. In other words, if we accept that "New England" is perfectly acceptable, except for the sole fact that it's a region and not a city (which is my supposition), then the closest possible replacement is certainly "Boston". If, on the other hand, we reject "New England" because it's too general or under-informative, then we get into a situation where "Hartford" may well be the best choice.

[jeffandnicole]

Overall, better.

I-76 EB...
Milepost 250.1 to Milepost 326.4
New York City - Philadelphia OR Valley Forge

Milepost 326.5 to New Jersey State Line
Camden - New York City

I'm not sure where you think New York City is located.  If one wanted to go to New York City, they would remain on the PA Turnpike, where it becomes I-276.  Once they exit the PA Turnpike and continue on I-76 towards Philly, an appropriate Control City would remain Philadelphia.  At I-676, it could become PHL Airport, Atlantic City, etc.  When you are on the Walt Whitman Bridge, the control city is Atlantic City.

I-76 WB
NJ State Line to Milepost 326.2
Philadelphia - Harrisburg

Milepost 326.1 to Milepost 225
Harrisburg - Syracuse

Milepost 225.1 to Milepost 160.9
Breezewood - Washington D.C.

You're already west of Syracuse and Washington DC by these points, and I-76 West isn't taking you anywhere near those destinations.  If one wanted to reach Syracuse, they would've used the Northeast Extension.  If one was travelling east, I-70 is fine for Washington DC, but they would be awfully out of their way if they used that same exit going west.

Milepost 160.8 to Milepost 109.8
Stoystown - Columbus

Milepost 109.7 to Milepost 74.5
Columbus - Pittsburgh

Milepost 74.4 to Milepost 56.7
Pittsburgh - Cleveland

You shouldn't drop a control city if you haven't reached the city yet.  The purpose of a control city is to guide you to that city.

I-95 NB
Delaware State Line to Milepost 10
Chester - Allentown

Milepost 10.1 to Milepost 39.8
Trenton - New York City

Milepost 39.9 to NJ State Line
New York City

You ignored PA's largest city, and arguably the entire reason why I-95 still exists in PA.

I-95 SB
NJ State Line to Milepost 34.5
Philadelphia - Edgemoor

Milepost 34.4 to Milepost 19.2
Penns Landing - Central City

Milepost 22.1 to Milepost 12.8
Central City

Milepost 12.7 to Milepost 9.9
Philadelphia International Airport

Milepost 9.8 to Delaware State Line
Chester - Wilmington (OR Allentown)

Penns Landing & Center City (Not Central City) are neighborhoods and are not appropriate for use as control city.  Simply using Philadelphia is fine.

Allentown is well north of Philadelphia, not south of it.

[PHLBOS]

But I think the salient point of my argument, which I don't think has been successfully refuted yet, is that if you had to replace the phrase "New England" with the name of one city to denote the region as a whole, that city would certainly be Boston.

The various I-95 northbound signs in North Jersey and NYC that once used New England for a listing now use New Haven, CT.  One old-old I-287 BGS (replaced during the 1990s) at the I-87/287 split (below the Tappan Zee Bridge) that once used New England as a listing now simply use Rye (located at the CT border) as its most-distant listing. 

In other words, if we accept that "New England" is perfectly acceptable, except for the sole fact that it's a region and not a city (which is my supposition), then the closest possible replacement is certainly "Boston".

If there was absolutely nothing (in Gene Wilder/Willy Wonka voice), in terms of cities or populous areas, between the CT/NY state line and Boston; then (and only then) would that assumption be correct. 

One drive along I-84 through Danbury, Waterbury & Hartford during rush hours is proof enough that nobody would ever mistake I-84 through CT for I-80 through PA in terms of surroundings & traffic.

If, on the other hand, we reject "New England" because it's too general or under-informative, then we get into a situation where "Hartford" may well be the best choice.

See above-examples of destination listing changes that took place on I-95 (& I-287) signs.  The Feds have since frowned on using such generalities like New England or even state names.  Either the town where the highway ends (Rye for I-287) or the next city along the way (New Haven, CT for I-95) is used. 

If such were done for I-84 (though most I-84 signs actually don't list New England as a destination); Danbury could be chosen over Hartford for the simple reasons that:

1.  It's the first city one enters along I-84 from New York (state).

and

2.  FWIW, interchanges w/US 7 there; which connects to other CT cities (Norwalk), along with points along western MA and VT.  Granted, US 7's not a continuous freeway (though there probably were once plans for such) but it is the most direct route for the westernmost parts of New England from I-84.

[empirestate]

In other words, if we accept that "New England" is perfectly acceptable, except for the sole fact that it's a region and not a city (which is my supposition), then the closest possible replacement is certainly "Boston".

If there was absolutely nothing (in Gene Wilder/Willy Wonka voice), in terms of cities or populous areas, between the CT/NY state line and Boston; then (and only then) would that assumption be correct.

Sorry...which assumption do you mean? That "New England" is unacceptable because it's the name of a region and not of a city?

We're probably trying to find the answers to different questions here, and that's why we keep ending up with different answers. To simplify my position even more, I'm saying Boston is the principal city in New England. As such, it could readily stand in place of the term "New England" if you were obliged to use the name of an actual city and not of a region.

Now, having established that, we can find–and you've pointed out–many additional reasons why Boston shouldn't be the control city; in other words, why the term "New England" should be replaced by something not just comparable to the scope of that term, but more specific or particular. Considering those reasons, then absolutely, "Hartford" is also an excellent choice. However, the reason Hartford would be a good choice is not because it is the princpial city of, and thus semantically equivalent to, New England.

I don't know if that makes my argument any clearer; as for myself, I'm actually more confused by this point!

[spooky]

I don't want to jump in someone else's debate, but in my opinion it's a flawed assumption that Boston can stand as representative of the region. Boston is a city and a destination, not a region.

If we agree with the MUTCD and disallow the use of a region or a state on the BGS, then Hartford would be far more appropriate than Boston. Danbury would also be appropriate for the reasons that PHLBOS already stated.

[Zeffy]

I think it's a bit folly to assume most travelers are going to Boston when they take I-84. Besides, you can't even reach Boston from I-84 alone - you have to jump on the Massachusetts Turnpike / I-90 to actually reach it from Sturbridge! Therefore, I would say Hartford, Connecticut, being a state capital and a fairly large-sized city should be signed.

Didn't New York used to have signs for New England on I-95 within New York City? Did they ever replace all of those with (I presume) New Haven?

[empirestate]

I don't want to jump in someone else's debate, but in my opinion it's a flawed assumption that Boston can stand as representative of the region. Boston is a city and a destination, not a region.

Granted, one city can never truly represent the whole region, but can you think of a better choice?

If we agree with the MUTCD and disallow the use of a region or a state on the BGS, then Hartford would be far more appropriate than Boston. Danbury would also be appropriate for the reasons that PHLBOS already stated.

If the region being replaced were "Southern New England", then I'd certainly agree that "Hartford" is far more appropriate. But we're replacing the term "New England", meaning all six states, from the CT panhandle to the Northwoods of Maine. At this stage in my argument, I'm not yet considering whether the whole region is an appropriate control city destination; you're right that plenty of good reasons have been given for Hartford or Danbury as control cities, but you're ahead of the game if you're applying them yet.

I think it's a bit folly to assume most travelers are going to Boston when they take I-84. Besides, you can't even reach Boston from I-84 alone - you have to jump on the Massachusetts Turnpike / I-90 to actually reach it from Sturbridge! Therefore, I would say Hartford, Connecticut, being a state capital and a fairly large-sized city should be signed.

I think it's also folly. However, I challenge anyone to find a control city that genuinely reflects where most travelers are actually headed; that's not how they're chosen, is it?

And again, I don't buy the argument of route number continuity. True, Boston isn't on I-84, but neither is Memphis on I-57, nor is Boise on I-86, nor is New York on I-80 (nor is it on I-90, as signed from Boston). However, I do buy the argument that Hartford is a state capital and a fairly large-sized city; that would be a reason to include it, not simply because it's on I-84.

Didn't New York used to have signs for New England on I-95 within New York City? Did they ever replace all of those with (I presume) New Haven?

Yes, that's why I brought it up in the first place. New Haven is as good a choice for I-95 as Hartford is for I-84, and in addition, Boston is also equally appropriate for both routes.

Keep in mind, I'm not arguing against Hartford. I'm arguing for Boston as one possibility. (Danbury or Newburgh, on the other hand, I'm definitely not sold on.)

[spooky]

I don't want to jump in someone else's debate, but in my opinion it's a flawed assumption that Boston can stand as representative of the region. Boston is a city and a destination, not a region.

Granted, one city can never truly represent the whole region, but can you think of a better choice?

If we agree with the MUTCD and disallow the use of a region or a state on the BGS, then Hartford would be far more appropriate than Boston. Danbury would also be appropriate for the reasons that PHLBOS already stated.

If the region being replaced were "Southern New England", then I'd certainly agree that "Hartford" is far more appropriate. But we're replacing the term "New England", meaning all six states, from the CT panhandle to the Northwoods of Maine. At this stage in my argument, I'm not yet considering whether the whole region is an appropriate control city destination; you're right that plenty of good reasons have been given for Hartford or Danbury as control cities, but you're ahead of the game if you're applying them yet.

If you want the destination to represent the region, keep it as New England. If it needs to be a control city, it shouldn't be decided based upon some misguided need to have a singular city represent a region.

[02 Park Ave]

I think that from this distance "New England" would be the general destination for a significant number of motorists.  So it would provide guidance to all of them not just to those heading for a particular city.

[empirestate]

If you want the destination to represent the region, keep it as New England. If it needs to be a control city, it shouldn't be decided based upon some misguided need to have a singular city represent a region.

I don't know whether anyone's actually expressed that need. But putting that aside, would you consider Boston based upon any other criteria? Being the principal city of New England may not be a reason to choose it as a control city, but is it a reason not to consider it?

[spooky]

If you want the destination to represent the region, keep it as New England. If it needs to be a control city, it shouldn't be decided based upon some misguided need to have a singular city represent a region.

I don't know whether anyone's actually expressed that need.

In other words, if we accept that "New England" is perfectly acceptable, except for the sole fact that it's a region and not a city (which is my supposition), then the closest possible replacement is certainly "Boston".

I think this is the basic flaw in your logic. If we accept that "New England" is perfectly acceptable, then why replace it? If we instead accept that "New England" needs to replaced - and why wouldn't you be starting with this assumption, if we're discussing what would replace it - then why also wouldn't we assume that it's replaced in the same manner that was used to replace "New England" with "New Haven CT" on I-95 leaving NYC, or to replace "NH-Maine" with "Portsmouth NH" on I-95 in MA? Destinations aren't supposed to be regional - that's why they're being replaced.

("supposed to be" based on MUTCD guidelines, not my own personal preference)

But putting that aside, would you consider Boston based upon any other criteria? Being the principal city of New England may not be a reason to choose it as a control city, but is it a reason not to consider it?

If there was absolutely nothing (in Gene Wilder/Willy Wonka voice), in terms of cities or populous areas, between the CT/NY state line and Boston; then (and only then) would that assumption be correct. 

yeah, what he said.

[empirestate]

In other words, if we accept that "New England" is perfectly acceptable, except for the sole fact that it's a region and not a city (which is my supposition), then the closest possible replacement is certainly "Boston".

I think this is the basic flaw in your logic. If we accept that "New England" is perfectly acceptable, then why replace it?

The flaw here is in your quote: I said more than that. We accept that we have to replace it because it's a region and not a city.

Now, why anybody would require us to do this, I don't know. I don't know whether that was FHWA's reason for doing it in NYC; I rather suspect not. But I'm not addressing that just yet. At this stage in the discussion, my entire point is this: Boston is the city that would stand in place of the region of New England to have the most similar connotation.

If we instead accept that "New England" needs to replaced - and why wouldn't you be starting with this assumption, if we're discussing what would replace it...

I am starting with that assumption, because it happened in New York.

...then why also wouldn't we assume that it's replaced in the same manner that was used to replace "New England" with "New Haven CT" on I-95 leaving NYC, or to replace "NH-Maine" with "Portsmouth NH" on I-95 in MA?

We would. And if that manner is simply to replace the name of a region with a semantically comparable city name, you'd choose Boston. Now the fact that New Haven was chosen for I-95 suggest that the manner was something else, which is where my endorsement of Hartford comes into play.

But what I think you have to know about my position is that being "yes" for Hartford doesn't equal being "no" for Boston as a control city. Remember that I'm looking at signage that reads, in different locations, "Wilkes-Barre/Boston", then "Newburgh/Boston", then "Hartford/Boston" or some such sequence.

Guys, I hope this clears up what I'm saying, because I frankly can't spend any more time explaining it. It's already taken way longer to discuss than its initial offhandedness should have warranted. :-)

Final wrap up for me: Hartford yes, Boston yes. Danbury, doubtful. Newburgh, no.

If there was absolutely nothing (in Gene Wilder/Willy Wonka voice), in terms of cities or populous areas, between the CT/NY state line and Boston; then (and only then) would that assumption be correct. 

yeah, what he said.

I'm actually not sure what he said; I never got what "assumption" referred to in this context, but that's OK.

[KEVIN_224]

I still remember an on-ramp sign for I-84 West in Danbury simply reading "NY State" in the past. I think that says "NY State | Norwalk" now, assuming one makes the connection for US Route 7 South at Exit 3.

As for CT control cities, the last mileage sign in New York state gives the distances for Danbury and Hartford.

[PHLBOS]

I still remember an on-ramp sign for I-84 West in Danbury simply reading "NY State" in the past. I think that says "NY State | Norwalk" now, assuming one makes the connection for US Route 7 South at Exit 3.

Nope, the destination listings for I-84 West BGS' in Danbury now read Newburgh.

Where US 7 South meets I-84 West

At US 7 South/I-84 West split.

[mrsman]

With regard to the proposed signage at I-80/I-81, currently it reads I-81 Wilkes-Barre and I-80 Hazleton.  By adding control cities for Hartford and New York City, you will be helping long distance traffic, especially guiding traffic from 80 to 81 to 84.

But currently, the control city on I-84 EB from I-81 and I-380 is Milford.  This is much too small of a city for control.  If Penn-DOT puts Hartford on the I-80/I-81 sign, doesn't that mean that Penn, NY, and CT would now have to change the control city on every BGS along EB I-84 to include Hartford?

[roadman]

But currently, the control city on I-84 EB from I-81 and I-380 is Milford.  This is much too small of a city for control.  If Penn-DOT puts Hartford on the I-80/I-81 sign, doesn't that mean that Penn, NY, and CT would now have to change the control city on every BGS along EB I-84 to include Hartford?

Yes, ideally when a major control city is changed, then all other existing signs along the affected section of roadway should be revised to have consistent control cities as well.  However, having different control cities on signs entering I-84 from secondary roads than those on the I-84 mainline at major decision points is not disallowed by FHWA.

The general trend towards disallowing states or regions as control destinations on signs notwithstanding, I agree with the use of New England as a control on the new I-80 at I-81 signs.  However, for continuity, PennDOT should also replace Milford with New England on the I-84 signs at the I-81/I-84/I-380 split and at the I-84/I-380 split.

[Gnutella]

If there has to be a specific control city from I-84 eastbound from Scranton, then I'd say make it Hartford, because it's a major metropolitan area (more than 1,000,000 population) and a state capital as well. Besides, I think most people realize that Hartford is near Boston, so they'd go in the direction of Hartford to get to Boston.