Pennsylvania

[plain]

Now that the "Parkway West" (I-376) construction in Pittsburgh has wrapped up, I'm happy to see that PennDOT District 11 is using "Pittsburgh Intl Airport" as a control destination instead of just "Airport."

I kinda dig that "LANE ENDS" in yellow background plus arrow on that BGS

[jemacedo9]

For those tracking the new signage on US 15 N of Williamsport: nothing new after one week.  My next trip that way will be at the end of Aug.
For those tracking new FHWA signs in PA, two more new ones on a new overhead gantry on US 422 West just before the PA 23 exit in Valley Forge.

[seicer]

Will they be installing the exit numbers and I-99 signage any time soon? And is there a timeline on completing I-99 between I-80 and Williamsport? I noticed most of the new signs have exit tabs but not all.

[Bitmapped]

What exactly was the point of widening that to three lanes at the option lane split, but still having it drop to two right after despite there being all the pavement for a third lane westbound all the way through the interchange?

The third lane functions as a climbing lane. It ends on the downhill side of the hill, allowing the ramp from I-79 NB to I-376 WB to be an add lane as the hill picks up again. Having the ramp come in as an added lane works a lot more smoothly with the uphill grade than when it used to have to merge in right away with slow traffic coming off the loop.

[cl94]

Will they be installing the exit numbers and I-99 signage any time soon? And is there a timeline on completing I-99 between I-80 and Williamsport? I noticed most of the new signs have exit tabs but not all.

Neither is planned remotely soon. US 15 north of Williamsport is Interstate grade, it's a matter of PennDOT wanting to submit an application and change the signs. Exit tabs have been present since the last part of that opened years ago.

As far as the current NT of the PA section up to Williamsport, I'd be surprised if it's completed within the next 25 years. US 220 is horribly substandard and the cost is monumental. They haven't even built a proper interchange with I-80.

[ARMOURERERIC]

Now that the "Parkway West" (I-376) construction in Pittsburgh has wrapped up, I'm happy to see that PennDOT District 11 is using "Pittsburgh Intl Airport" as a control destination instead of just "Airport."

While I'm not upset to see "Pittsburgh Int'l" , I don't think it's really necessary since PIT is the city's only commercial service airport. (Arnold Palmer sees less than 1/20th the traffic of PIT and is over 50 miles in the opposite direction, so I don't think there's much of a chance for confusion.)

If you're headed to Allegheny County Airport–a courier taking packages to an air cargo outfit or a chauffeur shuttling an Alcoa exec to his private jet–I don't think you should expect to have giant overhead guide signs marking the route to a general aviation airport.

All the wasted blank space and ugly green out in a few years when PIT stops being an international airport.

[LeftyJR]

Now that the "Parkway West" (I-376) construction in Pittsburgh has wrapped up, I'm happy to see that PennDOT District 11 is using "Pittsburgh Intl Airport" as a control destination instead of just "Airport."

While I'm not upset to see "Pittsburgh Int'l" , I don't think it's really necessary since PIT is the city's only commercial service airport. (Arnold Palmer sees less than 1/20th the traffic of PIT and is over 50 miles in the opposite direction, so I don't think there's much of a chance for confusion.)

If you're headed to Allegheny County Airport–a courier taking packages to an air cargo outfit or a chauffeur shuttling an Alcoa exec to his private jet–I don't think you should expect to have giant overhead guide signs marking the route to a general aviation airport.

All the waste

Will they be installing the exit numbers and I-99 signage any time soon? And is there a timeline on completing I-99 between I-80 and Williamsport? I noticed most of the new signs have exit tabs but not all.

Neither is planned remotely soon. US 15 north of Williamsport is Interstate grade, it's a matter of PennDOT wanting to submit an application and change the signs. Exit tabs have been present since the last part of that opened years ago.

As far as the current NT of the PA section up to Williamsport, I'd be surprised if it's completed within the next 25 years. US 220 is horribly substandard and the cost is monumental. They haven't even built a proper interchange with I-80.

220 near I-80 (near Exit 178 on I-80) has plenty of room to make it four lanes - its basically a "super 2" now with an interchange at Mackeyville.  That part shouldn't cost much - the I-80 interchanges here and at Exit 161 would be costly as well. 

The 7 mile section between Williamsport and Jersey Shore has all sorts of problems - and I believe that project was deferred about 5 years ago.

[seicer]

For now, they are ripping out the small concrete bulb median and installing jersey barriers.

[billpa]

Now that the "Parkway West" (I-376) construction in Pittsburgh has wrapped up, I'm happy to see that PennDOT District 11 is using "Pittsburgh Intl Airport" as a control destination instead of just "Airport."

When I traveled abroad, other countries almost always use the "plane" symbol on the signs with the airport.  I figure this is because of people who don't speak their native language, but I think it would be a welcome change here in the states.

And in the rest of the world the plane "points" in the direction you're supposed to go. That's something most states here haven't quite figured out yet.

SM-T230NU

[ixnay]

And in the rest of the world the plane "points" in the direction you're supposed to go. That's something most states here haven't quite figured out yet.

You mean the arrows on this kind of sign (from the UK) are called "planes"?



ixnay

[thenetwork]

And in the rest of the world the plane "points" in the direction you're supposed to go. That's something most states here haven't quite figured out yet.

You mean the arrows on this kind of sign (from the UK) are called "planes"?



ixnay

Those look like Washington Monuments to me.

[ixnay]

Washington Monuments?  LOL, thenetwork!!! 

ixnay

[KEVIN_224]

http://www.philly.com/philly/living/travel/Pennsylvania-turnpike-Breezewood-rest-stop.html?utm_campaign=Philly.com+Facebook+Account&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&cid=Philly.com+Facebook

Philly.com had this person's take on a recent Breezewood outing.

[billpa]

And in the rest of the world the plane "points" in the direction you're supposed to go. That's something most states here haven't quite figured out yet.

You mean the arrows on this kind of sign (from the UK) are called "planes"?



ixnay

No, the airplane symbol.

HTC6525LVW

[Ian]

And in the rest of the world the plane "points" in the direction you're supposed to go. That's something most states here haven't quite figured out yet.

You mean the arrows on this kind of sign (from the UK) are called "planes"?

[img snipped]http://

No, the airplane symbol.

I believe he's speaking more along the lines of this, where the small airplane symbol points in the direction of the airport (example from Quebec).



I wish more US states did it this way...

[billpa]

And in the rest of the world the plane "points" in the direction you're supposed to go. That's something most states here haven't quite figured out yet.

You mean the arrows on this kind of sign (from the UK) are called "planes"?

[img snipped]http://

No, the airplane symbol.

I believe he's speaking more along the lines of this, where the small airplane symbol points in the direction of the airport (example from Quebec).



I wish more US states did it this way...

Exactly. I was on 128 this past weekend and there were signs for Logan which were done in this fashion (like that example from Quebec.) But, for the most part, our signage follows American exceptionalism rules too often.

SM-T230NU

[jeffandnicole]

I believe he's speaking more along the lines of this, where the small airplane symbol points in the direction of the airport (example from Quebec).



I wish more US states did it this way...

Exactly. I was on 128 this past weekend and there were signs for Logan which were done in this fashion (like that example from Quebec.) But, for the most part, our signage follows American exceptionalism rules too often.

SM-T230NU

The bigger question - do people notice?

I certainly noticed the arrow at the bottom in the yellow more than what direction the airplane symbol was facing.  And why would the airplane symbol matter if all the other normal elements of the sign were on the sign, as they are?

[billpa]

I believe he's speaking more along the lines of this, where the small airplane symbol points in the direction of the airport (example from Quebec).



I wish more US states did it this way...

Exactly. I was on 128 this past weekend and there were signs for Logan which were done in this fashion (like that example from Quebec.) But, for the most part, our signage follows American exceptionalism rules too often.

SM-T230NU

The bigger question - do people notice?

I certainly noticed the arrow at the bottom in the yellow more than what direction the airplane symbol was facing.  And why would the airplane symbol matter if all the other normal elements of the sign were on the sign, as they are?

Because it looks like an arrow and can be confusing. It can appear to point in a direction which is wrong.
You're also likely communicating with motorists who are, in many cases, from places where the airplane symbol points in the proper direction.

SM-T230NU

[jeffandnicole]

I believe he's speaking more along the lines of this, where the small airplane symbol points in the direction of the airport (example from Quebec).



I wish more US states did it this way...

Exactly. I was on 128 this past weekend and there were signs for Logan which were done in this fashion (like that example from Quebec.) But, for the most part, our signage follows American exceptionalism rules too often.

SM-T230NU

The bigger question - do people notice?

I certainly noticed the arrow at the bottom in the yellow more than what direction the airplane symbol was facing.  And why would the airplane symbol matter if all the other normal elements of the sign were on the sign, as they are?

Because it looks like an arrow and can be confusing. It can appear to point in a direction which is wrong.
You're also likely communicating with motorists who are, in many cases, from places where the airplane symbol points in the proper direction.

SM-T230NU

Since it's been often noted that FHWA signage doesn't have the airplane symbol pointing in any specific direction, I'll repeat my question:

Do people notice?

This certainly doesn't come up in any list anywhere of things that confuse motorists.  And even when we're talking about international tourists that are driving vehicles (who may be accustomed to such plane pointing symbols), I can't recall anyone complaining about it.

Further to the point - I tried doing a Google search or two.  There's a million gazillion pages on the internet about everything, and I couldn't come up with anything regarding this.

[seicer]

An airplane symbol does not look like an arrow. Good grief.

In New York state, where there are a lot of bilingual residents and visitors, symbols are used extensively to denote universities and schools, libraries, post offices, airports, train stations, information centers and more. A name is often affixed below it. Not only does that provide maximum clarity to non-English (or English as a second language) motorists, but it provides maximum clarity to native residents as well.

[briantroutman]

As a graphic designer who frequently deals with issues involving iconography and clarity of word-less communications, I disagree with the idea of "pointing"  the airplane in the direction of travel. By rotating the plane, you're altering the icon (in a sense). The silhouette of an airplane pointing straight upward registers a certain signature in a viewer's mind, and that same plane rotated 90° registers a slightly different signature. Sure, the viewer will figure it out after a second or two, but at 60-70+ MPH, those are a few seconds that shouldn't be wasted.

And let's take that concept further: Should the knife and fork on a FOOD services sign be rotated toward the location of restaurants? Should trailblazers approaching Washington state routes have George's head rotated toward the corresponding direction of travel?

Personally, I don't think so.

[J N Winkler]

You mean the arrows on this kind of sign (from the UK) are called "planes"?

Those are called stub arms in official documentation.  They were originally developed for motorway signs in 1958 and had a 60° chamfer.  When new signs for roads other than motorways were instituted in 1965 and design rules for motorway signs were adjusted to conform to the same visual language, a 90° chamfer became the norm.  The signs on which stub arms can be found are generally called map-type advance direction signs.

As a graphic designer who frequently deals with issues involving iconography and clarity of word-less communications, I disagree with the idea of "pointing"  the airplane in the direction of travel. By rotating the plane, you're altering the icon (in a sense). The silhouette of an airplane pointing straight upward registers a certain signature in a viewer's mind, and that same plane rotated 90° registers a slightly different signature. Sure, the viewer will figure it out after a second or two, but at 60-70+ MPH, those are a few seconds that shouldn't be wasted.

This approach does not create confusion the UK, where the airplane symbol is large, distinct, not framed by a bounding box, and is easily recognizable as a plane in plan view in any orientation in which it is used (which, if memory serves, is allowed to be varied in 15° increments).  I don't know, though, that anyone actually associates nose angle with direction of travel to the airport without actually looking in TSRGD or Chapter 7 of the UK Traffic Signs Manual.

I personally find the plane symbol in plan view--however oriented--much easier to recognize than the profile view of a plane taking off, which is used in Albuquerque, Milwaukee, etc. and is so poorly articulated that from a distance it looks like a slash of white on the sign.

I don't think BillPA's generalization (plane points in direction of travel to the airport) is necessarily correct as applied to all countries other than the US.  I know it is in the UK, and I will take others' word for it that it is in Québec though I can't remember specific language to that effect in the MTQ traffic manual.  I don't think the plane symbol rotates in France, however.

[empirestate]

As a graphic designer who frequently deals with issues involving iconography and clarity of word-less communications, I disagree with the idea of "pointing"  the airplane in the direction of travel. By rotating the plane, you're altering the icon (in a sense). The silhouette of an airplane pointing straight upward registers a certain signature in a viewer's mind, and that same plane rotated 90° registers a slightly different signature. Sure, the viewer will figure it out after a second or two, but at 60-70+ MPH, those are a few seconds that shouldn't be wasted.

This is an important point. I was going to say rotating the symbol gives a subtle cue that can only enhance the communication, but for the reasons stated above, maybe that's not so. But the point is, whatever the answer may be, the question isn't what people will notice, but what is the best design. Indeed, a characteristic of good design is quite often that people don't notice it.

[jemacedo9]

Sign Project Begins on Route 15 in Lycoming and Tioga Counties

This work includes the installation of new mile marker and exit signs on the highway

Curious to see what route's mileage they are going to use:  US 15 or I-99.  I'm also curious to see if they are going to add exit numbers as they did with US 220 in Clinton County. And many of the signs on this stretch are fairly new, so with a total cost of $130K, there can't be too many BGSs being replaced. 

I would assume I-99 exit numbers. It doesn't make much sense to use US 15 numbers now. There are already Future I-99 signs on the corridor and, as far as I know, they could extend I-99 to I-180 at Williamsport now.

SO...this sign contract DID involve assigning exit numbers from I-180 north.  So far...the mile markers are generic ones (non-enhanced/no shields) and only whole miles, no tenths.  Mile markers start at 136 and end at 196 and the NY border.

So far, all ground mounted signs (supplemental BGS and services signs) have greenout/blueout patches, including the signs with blank Exit tabs and including gore signs that had blank exit numbers.  At this point, no new gore signs have been installed, and no new exit tabs. 

The numbers, that I could see (I drove NB), are:

3rd St (NB only) - Exit 136
4th St (SB only) - couldn't tell (prob will be 136)
Foy Ave/Lycoming Creek Rd - nothing installed (prob will be 137)
Hepburnville - Exit 140
PA 973 Cogan Station/Perrryville (SB only) - Exit 143
PA 14 Trout Run / Canton - Exit 148
Cogan House - Exit 152
PA 184 Steam Valley - Exit 155
PA 284 English Center / Buttonwood - Exit 158
PA 414 Morris / Liberty - Exit 162
Sebring - no number yet (prob will be 163 or 164)
Blossburg - Exit 172
PA 660/Bus US 15 Canoe Camp / Covington - Exit 179
US 6 Mansfield / Wellsboro - Exit 182
Bus US 15 Main St (SB only) - Exit 183
PA 287 Tioga / Tioga Jct - Exit 191
PA 49 Lawrenceville / Elkland - Exit 196

[jp the roadgeek]

Sign Project Begins on Route 15 in Lycoming and Tioga Counties

This work includes the installation of new mile marker and exit signs on the highway

Curious to see what route's mileage they are going to use:  US 15 or I-99.  I'm also curious to see if they are going to add exit numbers as they did with US 220 in Clinton County. And many of the signs on this stretch are fairly new, so with a total cost of $130K, there can't be too many BGSs being replaced. 

I would assume I-99 exit numbers. It doesn't make much sense to use US 15 numbers now. There are already Future I-99 signs on the corridor and, as far as I know, they could extend I-99 to I-180 at Williamsport now.

SO...this sign contract DID involve assigning exit numbers from I-180 north.  So far...the mile markers are generic ones (non-enhanced/no shields) and only whole miles, no tenths.  Mile markers start at 136 and end at 196 and the NY border.

So far, all ground mounted signs (supplemental BGS and services signs) have greenout/blueout patches, including the signs with blank Exit tabs and including gore signs that had blank exit numbers.  At this point, no new gore signs have been installed, and no new exit tabs. 

The numbers, that I could see (I drove NB), are:

3rd St (NB only) - Exit 136
4th St (SB only) - couldn't tell (prob will be 136)
Foy Ave/Lycoming Creek Rd - nothing installed (prob will be 137)
Hepburnville - Exit 140
PA 973 Cogan Station/Perrryville (SB only) - Exit 143
PA 14 Trout Run / Canton - Exit 148
Cogan House - Exit 152
PA 184 Steam Valley - Exit 155
PA 284 English Center / Buttonwood - Exit 158
PA 414 Morris / Liberty - Exit 162
Sebring - no number yet (prob will be 163 or 164)
Blossburg - Exit 172
PA 660/Bus US 15 Canoe Camp / Covington - Exit 179
US 6 Mansfield / Wellsboro - Exit 182
Bus US 15 Main St (SB only) - Exit 183
PA 287 Tioga / Tioga Jct - Exit 191
PA 49 Lawrenceville / Elkland - Exit 196

I'm going to guess they are I-99 numbers.  Exit 136 would be at about MP 132 for US 15.  For I-99, it's about 86.5 miles from the beginning to I-80, 17.5 miles duplexed with I-80, then about 31 miles on US 220 from I-80 to the I-180/US 15 junction.  Those numbers seem to add up to 136