Interstate 17

Started by roadwaywiz95, March 14, 2020, 10:06:32 PM

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roadwaywiz95

A new home for general talk surrounding I-17. Here's our first big announcement:

Our next installment in the "Virtual Tour" series is scheduled to take place next Saturday (3/21) at 5 PM ET. Come join me and members of the AARoads community as we profile Interstate 17 through central Arizona and discuss the history and features of this highway, all while enjoying a real-time video trip along the length of the freeway between Phoenix and Flagstaff.

A link to the event location can be found below:
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SSR_317

Thank you, RoadwayWiz, for your virtual tour of I-17. In spite of the technical glitches, it was a thoroughly enjoyable experience and brought back many pleasant memories of my numerous visits to the Grand Canyon State. If you get a chance to return to that region, definitely do Sedona and Oak Creek Canyon. The mountain town of Jerome, on the way to Prescott just past Sedona, is also noteworthy (reminded me a lot of Virginia City, NV), in that it literally "hangs" on the side of a mountain. It's too bad the skies weren't clearer the day of your trip, as you didn't get the full effect of Humphrey's Peak suddenly "appearing" straight ahead on I-17 as you climb out of the Verde Valley while ascending the Mogollon Rim.

Keep up the excellent work!

Plutonic Panda


74/171FAN

FYI, the I-17 virtual tour is still on the roadwaywiz channel.  (Link is here: 
)
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

Plutonic Panda

The widening of I-17 north of Phoenix to include additional GP lanes and new flex lanes for about 23 miles begins in 2022.

https://apnews.com/article/business-arizona-phoenix-canyons-arizona-department-of-transportation-3eaa9e3ec6ddbe0c70ebc2a27d6ba594

Sonic99

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 29, 2021, 04:38:25 PM
The widening of I-17 north of Phoenix to include additional GP lanes and new flex lanes for about 23 miles begins in 2022.

https://apnews.com/article/business-arizona-phoenix-canyons-arizona-department-of-transportation-3eaa9e3ec6ddbe0c70ebc2a27d6ba594

Cannot happen soon enough, but the construction is going to be absolutely effing awful while it's underway. You think traffic is bad going up and down the hill now? Ugh...
If you used to draw freeways on your homework and got reprimanded by your Senior English teacher for doing so, you might be a road geek!

kernals12

I encountered congestion on 17 when I was travelling from Phoenix to Sedona over Labor Day. I hope this helps.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: kernals12 on October 31, 2021, 10:05:06 AM
I encountered congestion on 17 when I was travelling from Phoenix to Sedona over Labor Day. I hope this helps.

That's the so called "Sedona 500"  phenomenon.  The better bet on days like that is taking AZ 89 or AZ 87 back to Phoenix.

edwaleni

Does anyone know if AZ DOT is planning to add any lanes to I-17 in the near future. I know about the capacity increases north of Phoenix for the Sedona 500, but I am talking about the "Great Flagstaff Exit".

When snow comes to the area around Flagstaff, Sunday night returns to the PHX metro area are downright terrible. Backups for miles and miles sometimes all the way to Flower Pot.

The Ghostbuster

I have a hard time believing that there was once a proposal 30 years ago to extend Interstate 17 northward to Interstate 15 in Utah: https://www.deseret.com/1993/1/2/19024583/arizona-officials-seek-extension-of-i-17-into-utah. Does anyone else remember that?

Henry

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 24, 2023, 04:07:10 PM
I have a hard time believing that there was once a proposal 30 years ago to extend Interstate 17 northward to Interstate 15 in Utah: https://www.deseret.com/1993/1/2/19024583/arizona-officials-seek-extension-of-i-17-into-utah. Does anyone else remember that?
I remember hearing about it. Not surprisingly, the Navajos shot it down, as did the environmentalists protecting the Grand Canyon. But I could see I-17 tie into either I-15 or I-70 in the Cove Fort area had it been successful. And that would've made a better all-freeway routing from Phoenix to Salt Lake City than I-11 could ever be (just one man's opinion).
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KeithE4Phx

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 24, 2023, 04:07:10 PM
I have a hard time believing that there was once a proposal 30 years ago to extend Interstate 17 northward to Interstate 15 in Utah: https://www.deseret.com/1993/1/2/19024583/arizona-officials-seek-extension-of-i-17-into-utah. Does anyone else remember that?

IIRC, it was the politicians in Arizona and Utah that were LDS that were trying to push this through.  They were the ones that wanted the direct route between Phoenix and SLC.  Unfortunately for them, the Navajo Nation had the final say (actually, the only say, since it's their land) and they shot it down.  I doubt it will ever be revived.
"Oh, so you hate your job? Well, why didn't you say so? There's a support group for that. It's called "EVERYBODY!" They meet at the bar." -- Drew Carey

edwaleni

The TEA-21 and SAFETEA acts of Congress has restructured how the FHWA, the DOT and the state DOT's work with Tribal Authorities on highway planning.

The biggest issue to any large scale tax funded highway planning through tribal lands is that they are ultimately on the hook for maintenance unless they cut a deal with a state DOT (which is allowed) to keep the roads up to spec.

Since the tax base doesn't support large scale highway maintenance budgeting, the tribal authorities would be forced to form a toll authority to capture the needed revenue, which is not allowed for federal tax funded highways.

This is why many (but not all) tribal roads are gravel and the bridges are a mix of deficient to average in capability.

However, that doesn't stop the tribal authorities to create a toll authority themselves to bond finance a highway across their lands and hire a firm to operate it.

If the route was shown to have a significant enough volumes to warrant a tollway with an annual concession payment to the tribes IRR fund, I would imagine you might find more interest. If the tribe offers concessions to run casino/hospitality center at a prime locale along the way, it again could drive revenue into tribal hands.

So with the new SAFETEA and subsequent highway acts, I would like to think the tribal authorities have way more options in their pocket when large highway projects approach them on land use.

Rothman

Any threat that tribal nations would be responsible for maintenance has been a paper tiger in NY.  Seneca Nation and NY have notoriously not seen eye to eye for decades and the Thruway and I-86 suffered as a result of a lack of agreement between them. 
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Bobby5280

#14
I think the only choice of making a Northern extension of I-17 remotely feasible is phasing in improvements to the US-89 corridor. The various canyons and mountains across Northern Arizona and Southern Utah make any other choice impossible.

I think US-89 should be a divided four lane highway up to Page at least. Right now it's mostly 2 lanes with some stretches of divided or not-divided four lane as well as a few passing zones. It's possible to convert all of that to a divided four lane facility as safety improvements.

If an Interstate was ever built in the town of Page it would have to use the existing US-89 alignment. US-89 already sort of bypasses Page anyway. It's possible to upgrade US-89 from a 2-lane road to a standard 4-lane divided road without displacing any businesses. A freeway with frontage roads would force at least a few roadside businesses to relocate to new set-backs. And then a new, second bridge would have to be built across Glen Canyon.

The Navajo Nation might be more receptive of big improvements to the US-89 corridor if it translated into positive economic impact. There needs to be a greater variety of businesses on tribe lands. When most people think of businesses that operate on tribe lands it's always casinos and smoke shops. It feeds into negative stereotypes. Plus, I think there's room for only so many casinos in the marketplace. This particular area is probably a little too close to Las Vegas.

North of Page and going into Utah the US-89 corridor is forced to take a hard left turn, basically going more than 70 miles due West to reach a feasible opening to continue North. Even if a north extension of I-17 was on the table I'm pretty sure the new Interstate would be forced to follow the same route.

Max Rockatansky

Right now US 89 is very adequate to handle traffic loads between Flagstaff and Cameron.  The four lanes were almost always empty aside from times when traffic coming/going to the Grand Canyon was heavy.  North of Cameron to US 160 the situation on US 89 could be remedied plausibility by way of installing passing lanes.  From US 160 the traffic lessens considerably approaching US 89A and finally Page.  If four lane conversion or US 89 was going to happen it would have when BIA 20 was assigned as US 89T following the sink hole incident south of Page a couple years back. 

JKRhodes

Drove I-17 from Flagstaff to Phoenix last weekend. Southbound before the 18 mile hill there's a lot of construction going on. Lots of stretches with one lane and a jersey barrier on the right and the guard rail on the left. would be a very bad place to break down

Looks like they're redoing the road surface and digging out about 2 feet to redo the entire road bed below.  Northbound was in pretty good shape.

Sunset point was recently re-opened following a renovation and very nicely done.

Nightly lane closures are taking place in the flex lanes project. Lots of workers and heavy equipment, in some areas they're only separated by pylons.

Meant to try out the new DDI at happy Valley Road, but drove on through due to time constraints


US 89

This has been discussed multiple times in other threads. Any need for major upgrades to US 89 died the day the Hoover Dam Bypass opened.

pderocco

Quote from: US 89 on August 15, 2023, 11:30:48 PM
This has been discussed multiple times in other threads. Any need for major upgrades to US 89 died the day the Hoover Dam Bypass opened.
I dunno. Going from Phoenix to SLC via US-89, etc. is only about 50 miles shorter than going through Vegas. But going from Phoenix to Denver via Monument Valley and I-70 is over a hundred miles shorter than going through Albuquerque, so I would think that would be a more useful new freeway. There must be some meaningful amount of truck traffic along that route. And it would promote some development in places like Kayenta, Bluff, Monticello, and Moab, and the Navajo Nation in general.

Max Rockatansky

US 160 in particular in the Navajo Nation is a pretty busy in general.  It isn't uncommon to see freight vehicles on US 160, US 163 or US 191. 

US 89

Quote from: pderocco on August 16, 2023, 01:52:47 AM
Quote from: US 89 on August 15, 2023, 11:30:48 PM
This has been discussed multiple times in other threads. Any need for major upgrades to US 89 died the day the Hoover Dam Bypass opened.
I dunno. Going from Phoenix to SLC via US-89, etc. is only about 50 miles shorter than going through Vegas. But going from Phoenix to Denver via Monument Valley and I-70 is over a hundred miles shorter than going through Albuquerque, so I would think that would be a more useful new freeway. There must be some meaningful amount of truck traffic along that route. And it would promote some development in places like Kayenta, Bluff, Monticello, and Moab, and the Navajo Nation in general.

My original comment was more directed at a US 89 upgrade from Flagstaff to an interstate junction somewhere in Utah (whether it be 70 or 15). At this point, any upgrade of US 89 into Utah is pretty much dead on arrival. In addition to tribal politics and the fact that the mountains along that route are rougher, you’re going to have to build a brand new Interstate-grade Colorado River bridge which is not going to be cheap, and numerous national monuments/parks/recreation areas are going to limit potential build locations. The alternate US 93/I-15 corridor is maybe a bit longer, but it has a huge advantage in that it is at a much lower elevation. The US 89 route is going to have two 7000-8000 foot mountain passes whether you connect to 15 over SR 20 or I-70, but I-15 doesn’t even reach 6000 except for one pass north of I-70, which is past where 89 traffic would be joining it anyway. In Arizona, Flagstaff is over 7000 feet while US 93 never even reaches 4000. That makes a huge difference, especially in winter and spring when the route via Las Vegas might avoid an entire snowstorm.

I don’t disagree that some upgrades would be nice on the US 89/160/163/191 corridor. You of course have tribal politics and maybe a San Juan River bridge depending on where you build it (easier the further east you put it) as issues, but the terrain along that corridor is friendlier. One of the things I’ve long wanted to see in this region is a four-lane corridor from Salt Lake to Albuquerque (and by extension, the Pacific Northwest to Texas) and this would accomplish the 191 widening you’d need as part of that. US 6 in Utah and US 491 in CO/NM would be all that’s left.

Trying to pitch this as something to spur development may backfire though. Realistically, the Navajos may not really want much growth because they simply don’t have the infrastructure to support it. A surprisingly high percentage of their reservation doesn’t even have running water. And medical care options, which would be needed especially with the likely increase in outdoor tourism that would occur with this kind of road upgrade, are limited. They basically closed their reservation to all outsiders for several months during the peak of the COVID pandemic and their restrictions lasted much longer than those in other regions.

Moab would be a whole other can of worms. They’ve been growing fine recently due to their proximity to Arches and Canyonlands, but many of their residents are huge environmentalist/NIMBY or even BANANA types who just want everyone else to disappear. There have been talks about a US 191 Moab bypass for years and years now, but the same people complaining about all the trucks and diesel fumes along their Main Street are the ones that are horrified by the potential irreparable damage a bypass would do to the wetlands west of town. So naturally, nothing ever happens.

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 16, 2023, 07:53:53 AM
US 160 in particular in the Navajo Nation is a pretty busy in general.  It isn't uncommon to see freight vehicles on US 160, US 163 or US 191.
*trigger warning for certain posters I'm going to use the t word* lol

But to start I wonder one day one day if the tribes especially Navajo will become a bit more development friendly. If they got an extension of I-17 to I-70 I would think they would see a good increase in revenue.

At any rate what concerns me the most is 191 through Moab. Bypasses on each side of the town won't work for various reasons and a tunnel is something that could take the massive truck traffic off of the surface streets. There's a bad mix of UHVs, clumsy tourists(often in off road vehicles they haven't driven before), increasing vehicular and pedestrian traffic.

We can probably get away with not doing anything for another decade but something is going to have to be done about it at some point. Everyone I've talked to in Moab is just interested in making 191 a scenic route that is off limits to trucks. They don't want a tunnel, they don't want an eastern bypass, and they don't want a western bypass.

Some of these roads in the Navajo nation(which is among my favorite part of the country) just become downright miserable to drive on sometimes with the amount of traffic and how slow it can move become some dumbass is going like 35MPH so they can take in the scenery while driving.

Personally, I prefer the two lane roads over interstates. They are more interesting and fun to drive. But I think at some point Navajo leaders are going to have to wake up. We built the existing roads through there and didn't ask. They don't seem to mind today. If they cared so much about their land why allow tourism at all? Some tourists are the most disrespectful and biggest asshats I've ever seen. Worse than what I've seen in cities.

Rover_0

I'll echo the sentiment that any upgrade to US-89 north of US-160 (or possibly Page) isn't going to happen in the near future, given the terrain and politics involving the Navajo Nation. For some reason I could see 17 (or possibly a spur) going up towards and ending in the Page area, but a new, Interstate-grade bridge over the Colorado River would cost a pretty penny, as would dealing with the terrain there northward along 89.

That said, I still feel that designating a consistent East-West route (like a US-64/160/163 extension) that connects to I-15 near St. George would cover a lot of what  any I-17 north extension to the west of Page would do.
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Plutonic Panda

Looks like I-17 near downtown Phoenix could potentially get a speed limit upgrade to 65MPH: https://azdot.gov/news/adot-conducting-public-survey-about-i-17-speed-limit-phoenix

Sonic99

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 18, 2023, 03:47:30 PM
Looks like I-17 near downtown Phoenix could potentially get a speed limit upgrade to 65MPH: https://azdot.gov/news/adot-conducting-public-survey-about-i-17-speed-limit-phoenix

On one hand, I feel like everybody already does 65-70 through the whole section anyway. On the other, this is also the oldest section of freeway in the Valley and feels very narrow and has a LOT of traffic seemingly at all times, so encouraging people to go even faster might not be a good idea. Overall, this section really feels like it's out of place among the rest of the Phoenix freeway system which feels very open and flowing (especially once the I-10 Broadway Curve project is done next year and discussions genuinely need to be had about doing a complete rebuild to add capacity. The problem is even the slightest mention of it instantly makes you think about just how bleeping expensive it would be. If Broadway Curve was $600,000,000+, any rebuild of I-17 would absolutely be over a Billion dollar project.
If you used to draw freeways on your homework and got reprimanded by your Senior English teacher for doing so, you might be a road geek!



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