AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...  (Read 14209 times)

thenetwork

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2856
  • Age: 2018
  • Location: Grand Junction, Colorado
  • Last Login: May 27, 2022, 09:26:04 PM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2021, 07:08:28 PM »

Another question regarding I-275 in Michigan:

When I-275 first opened in the 70s, there was no control city listed on the signs at the I-75 interchange in Monroe. -- just I-275 NORTH.  The first mention of Flint was near I-94's junction.

Over the years, Flint was added as a control city for the I-75 NB signs.

Meanwhile, on the other end of I-275, Flint was never seen on any overheads at it's northern terminus with I-696.  Only on a supplemental sign.

So why not use Livonia as the main control city for I-275 North instead of Flint?  The last few exits on the I-275 segment which is duplexed with I-96 are all Livonia exits and is one of the largest suburbs in Detroit. 

Or at least list the cc's as Livonia - Flint or Livonia/Metro Airport.

They list Livonia as a control city for M-14 East from both I-94 and US-23...
Logged

Flint1979

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Michigan
  • Last Login: May 27, 2022, 10:19:47 PM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #76 on: September 22, 2021, 07:27:34 PM »

Another question regarding I-275 in Michigan:

When I-275 first opened in the 70s, there was no control city listed on the signs at the I-75 interchange in Monroe. -- just I-275 NORTH.  The first mention of Flint was near I-94's junction.

Over the years, Flint was added as a control city for the I-75 NB signs.

Meanwhile, on the other end of I-275, Flint was never seen on any overheads at it's northern terminus with I-696.  Only on a supplemental sign.

So why not use Livonia as the main control city for I-275 North instead of Flint?  The last few exits on the I-275 segment which is duplexed with I-96 are all Livonia exits and is one of the largest suburbs in Detroit. 

Or at least list the cc's as Livonia - Flint or Livonia/Metro Airport.

They list Livonia as a control city for M-14 East from both I-94 and US-23...
It really should be Plymouth and Livonia which is what it is at the eastern end of the M-14/US-23 concurrency.
Logged

Ryctor2018

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 148
  • Location: Illinois
  • Last Login: May 27, 2022, 04:44:20 PM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #77 on: September 23, 2021, 05:42:00 PM »

Another question regarding I-275 in Michigan:

When I-275 first opened in the 70s, there was no control city listed on the signs at the I-75 interchange in Monroe. -- just I-275 NORTH.  The first mention of Flint was near I-94's junction.

Over the years, Flint was added as a control city for the I-75 NB signs.

Meanwhile, on the other end of I-275, Flint was never seen on any overheads at it's northern terminus with I-696.  Only on a supplemental sign.

So why not use Livonia as the main control city for I-275 North instead of Flint?  The last few exits on the I-275 segment which is duplexed with I-96 are all Livonia exits and is one of the largest suburbs in Detroit. 

Or at least list the cc's as Livonia - Flint or Livonia/Metro Airport.

They list Livonia as a control city for M-14 East from both I-94 and US-23...
It really should be Plymouth and Livonia which is what it is at the eastern end of the M-14/US-23 concurrency.

Google streetview (and a recent trip to Michigan) has Plymouth as the control city for the east U.S, 23/M-14 interchange. The exits east of that along M-14 has Detroit as the control. As for I-275, I suspect that Flint is the control city, not a Detroit suburb because: for routing thru traffic from southeastern Michigan between Toledo and Detroit. Because, until recently MDOT still had ideas for the corridor north of the current end of I-275. Once M-5 was completed in the early 2000 did that line of thinking conclude. Third, because Michigan considers I-275 ending in Novi, not Livonia. That would be a better control. Especially with the large shopping area nearby. But, MDOT does not work that way.

I-696 has a control city of Port Huron, even though the freeway ends nearly 50 miles before that city. But, MDOT considers I-696 as a bypass of Detroit for traffic heading east. I think MDOT thinks of I-275 the same way.
Logged
2DI's traveled: 5, 8, 10, 12, 15, 20, 24, 30, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 44, 45, 49, 55, 57, 59, 64, 65, 66, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 85, 87, 88, 90, 93, 94, 95, 96

GaryV

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2483
  • Location: Southeast Michigan
  • Last Login: May 27, 2022, 04:15:49 PM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #78 on: September 23, 2021, 05:46:32 PM »

I-696 has a control city of Port Huron, even though the freeway ends nearly 50 miles before that city. But, MDOT considers I-696 as a bypass of Detroit for traffic heading east. I think MDOT thinks of I-275 the same way.
And Lansing for wb, which is well over 50 miles from the west end of I-696.
Logged

Flint1979

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Michigan
  • Last Login: May 27, 2022, 10:19:47 PM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #79 on: September 23, 2021, 06:29:31 PM »

Another question regarding I-275 in Michigan:

When I-275 first opened in the 70s, there was no control city listed on the signs at the I-75 interchange in Monroe. -- just I-275 NORTH.  The first mention of Flint was near I-94's junction.

Over the years, Flint was added as a control city for the I-75 NB signs.

Meanwhile, on the other end of I-275, Flint was never seen on any overheads at it's northern terminus with I-696.  Only on a supplemental sign.

So why not use Livonia as the main control city for I-275 North instead of Flint?  The last few exits on the I-275 segment which is duplexed with I-96 are all Livonia exits and is one of the largest suburbs in Detroit. 

Or at least list the cc's as Livonia - Flint or Livonia/Metro Airport.

They list Livonia as a control city for M-14 East from both I-94 and US-23...
It really should be Plymouth and Livonia which is what it is at the eastern end of the M-14/US-23 concurrency.

Google streetview (and a recent trip to Michigan) has Plymouth as the control city for the east U.S, 23/M-14 interchange. The exits east of that along M-14 has Detroit as the control. As for I-275, I suspect that Flint is the control city, not a Detroit suburb because: for routing thru traffic from southeastern Michigan between Toledo and Detroit. Because, until recently MDOT still had ideas for the corridor north of the current end of I-275. Once M-5 was completed in the early 2000 did that line of thinking conclude. Third, because Michigan considers I-275 ending in Novi, not Livonia. That would be a better control. Especially with the large shopping area nearby. But, MDOT does not work that way.

I-696 has a control city of Port Huron, even though the freeway ends nearly 50 miles before that city. But, MDOT considers I-696 as a bypass of Detroit for traffic heading east. I think MDOT thinks of I-275 the same way.
It has Livonia too going from SB US-23 to EB M-14. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3236256,-83.699859,3a,55.9y,92.25h,109.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdmRSR0g5CcVsBo5AZX_idQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

One rule of control cities is that the control city doesn't have to be reached before the control city is switched to the next control city so having Detroit as a control city for EB M-14 is fine as that ends right into I-96 EB going toward downtown.

MDOT hasn't had plans to extend I-275 north of it's northern terminus for years. At the time the Interstate highway system was being planned there wasn't much development out that way but the lakes caused an issue too. Flint is just an outdated control city still on the list that's why it's used and you can get to Flint via I-96 to US-23. It's too bad that I-275 wasn't fully built because it could really be useful today as an alternate to I-75 and US-23. Novi doesn't really need to be the control city just because that's where it ends and according to FHWA it ends at the M-14/I-96 interchange. I believe that MDOT considers it to end at the I-696/I-96/M-5 interchange because that was originally part of I-275 and I-96 was suppose to follow the Grand River Avenue corridor into Detroit but instead got shifted to the I-275 freeway then onto the Jeffries Freeway along Schoolcraft Road.

As Gary said I-696 also has Lansing on it's west end with the same distance to Lansing. This is fine though because the through traffic is generally headed in that direction anyway. It doesn't really need to reach Lansing and Port Huron in that case. I think Michigan's control cities are ok.
Logged

Terry Shea

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 530
  • Last Login: Today at 03:13:00 AM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #80 on: September 24, 2021, 12:01:21 AM »

Another question regarding I-275 in Michigan:

When I-275 first opened in the 70s, there was no control city listed on the signs at the I-75 interchange in Monroe. -- just I-275 NORTH.  The first mention of Flint was near I-94's junction.

Over the years, Flint was added as a control city for the I-75 NB signs.

Meanwhile, on the other end of I-275, Flint was never seen on any overheads at it's northern terminus with I-696.  Only on a supplemental sign.

So why not use Livonia as the main control city for I-275 North instead of Flint?  The last few exits on the I-275 segment which is duplexed with I-96 are all Livonia exits and is one of the largest suburbs in Detroit. 

Or at least list the cc's as Livonia - Flint or Livonia/Metro Airport.

They list Livonia as a control city for M-14 East from both I-94 and US-23...
It really should be Plymouth and Livonia which is what it is at the eastern end of the M-14/US-23 concurrency.
As for I-275, I suspect that Flint is the control city, not a Detroit suburb because: for routing thru traffic from southeastern Michigan between Toledo and Detroit. Because, until recently MDOT still had ideas for the corridor north of the current end of I-275. Once M-5 was completed in the early 2000 did that line of thinking conclude. Third, because Michigan considers I-275 ending in Novi, not Livonia. That would be a better control. Especially with the large shopping area nearby. But, MDOT does not work that way.
Who knows what MDOT thinks or how it works.  Apparently MDOT doesn't even know what MDOT is thinking, planning or doing sometimes.  I say this because the early maps all showed M-5 as being freeway clear up to Pontiac Trail.
Logged

Flint1979

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Michigan
  • Last Login: May 27, 2022, 10:19:47 PM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #81 on: September 24, 2021, 09:15:11 AM »

There are seven different regions of MDOT and I think they vary by region. The Metro region seems to be ok but the Bay region seems to lack a little.
Logged

roadman65

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 12332
  • Location: Lakeland, Florida
  • Last Login: May 27, 2022, 11:20:26 PM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #82 on: December 14, 2021, 08:05:35 AM »

Why not consolidate i_275 and I-696 as one continuous route. Drop one number and make it the other.
Logged
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Flint1979

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Michigan
  • Last Login: May 27, 2022, 10:19:47 PM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #83 on: December 14, 2021, 08:15:35 AM »

Why not consolidate i_275 and I-696 as one continuous route. Drop one number and make it the other.
No way would that fly especially today. There is no reason to do such a change.
Logged

roadman65

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 12332
  • Location: Lakeland, Florida
  • Last Login: May 27, 2022, 11:20:26 PM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #84 on: December 14, 2021, 08:51:44 AM »

It would make things simpler. Plus MichDOT loves to petition AASHTO for US routes to be changed. Red, White, and Blue shields are no different than Black and White.
Logged
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

BigManFromAFRICA88

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 120
  • Just roads being dudes.

  • Age: 23
  • Location: Utah/California
  • Last Login: May 13, 2022, 03:55:10 PM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #85 on: December 14, 2021, 01:00:53 PM »

Why not consolidate i_275 and I-696 as one continuous route. Drop one number and make it the other.

Read page 1 of the thread for the answer to this question, since it was created...to answer this question :)
Logged

Ryctor2018

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 148
  • Location: Illinois
  • Last Login: May 27, 2022, 04:44:20 PM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #86 on: December 14, 2021, 01:26:08 PM »

It would make things simpler. Plus MichDOT loves to petition AASHTO for US routes to be changed. Red, White, and Blue shields are no different than Black and White.

As others have said, it's unnecessary. Plus, they are two different freeways; I-275 was truncated after much of I-696 was already constructed. The freeways serve two different alignments. I-275 was always supposed to be a bypass of Detroit. I-696 (the Reuther Fwy) is a suburban commuter. If I-275 were placed on I-696's alignment, most folks would not use it to bypass Detroit to I-75 (its parent). Motorists would continue to use US-23 or I-275->I-96->US-23. Or M-5 north of I-275 to M-59 (which would be more likely in a fictional scenario).
Logged
2DI's traveled: 5, 8, 10, 12, 15, 20, 24, 30, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 44, 45, 49, 55, 57, 59, 64, 65, 66, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 85, 87, 88, 90, 93, 94, 95, 96

Flint1979

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 6783
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Michigan
  • Last Login: May 27, 2022, 10:19:47 PM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #87 on: December 14, 2021, 01:56:13 PM »

It would make things simpler. Plus MichDOT loves to petition AASHTO for US routes to be changed. Red, White, and Blue shields are no different than Black and White.
Well for one thing they are two different freeways and for another it really doesn't do much in the way of bypassing Detroit. If you wanted to bypass Detroit and you were on I-75 in Ohio and your destination is anywhere from northern Oakland County and points north you'd take US-23 to bypass Detroit. Even if you were in Monroe and wanted to get to Flint you'd take I-75 to I-275 to I-96 to US-23 it's a rather simple route or better yet take M-50 west to US-23 north but taking M-50 you would be on a two lane highway for about 15 miles before you get to US-23 in Dundee.

Actually the red white and blue shields let you know that it's an Interstate which will (except for at least one exception) always be a freeway. With a US highway there aren't very many standards, it could be a freeway, it could be a two lane highway, it could be an undivided highway or just about anything really. I think the difference between a state route and US highway though is that a US highway runs on a more important corridor most of the time and state highways aren't quite as important. I'd argue though that US highways that have been downgraded to state highways (not really any difference) are just as important as the current US highways.

Yet for an even bigger bypass route of Detroit, if you were on I-94 in the western part of the state you could take I-69 to Port Huron and completely bypass Detroit. You'd go around the outskirts of Lansing and through Flint though but that isn't much of a problem.
Logged

jOnstar1979

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 17
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Lenox Township, Michigan
  • Last Login: May 27, 2022, 07:15:58 PM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2021, 12:01:05 AM »

I think everyone here has some good ideas for what should be of I-275. I do agree that the control city could be changed. Novi or Farmington could work, but since NB joins and runs with 96 WB I would make Lansing the control city for all of I-275.  I know many would disagree with me and I can see why. I just think it would follow some standard as a bypass to the west ending up on the Lansing direction. Best I can compare that situation to would be I-675 North with the control city of Columbus on I-75 south of Dayton.

I can also see why this would be confusing for a non-local following I-275 heading for Flint. The only other sign you have on 275 north is a smaller guide sign telling you "Flint - Follow 96 West" and then have nothing else until you reach US-23. Maybe if that sign was an overhead that included US-23 North... then I can see it being less confusing. I wouldn't be opposed to going as far as to having Flint & Lansing as a NB 275 control city.

As for the section of 275 being joined with 96 for a short 6 to 7 miles. It does not bother me too much and I would be ok with leaving it just because many of us are so used to calling that section 275 and not 275/96 when coming from the east. I think it is just something we are all used to. This makes me think of the short section of I-90 east of Cleveland where I-90 drops a little south of the SR-2 Lakeland Freeway and you see I-271 on the overheads with I-90, but 271 does not start for another 3 to 4 miles.

Someone compared the 275/96 section with 380/84 section in Scranton. I thought that was a very good comparison and I drove that section for the first time a couple of years ago. Again... if it was my call, I would also leave 380 on that section just because I could see most of the overheads (if changed) having a TO 380 Mt Pocono anyway from the short section of SB I-81 to the 380/84 split.
(By the way, the Scranton to Binghamton drive is a pretty scenic drive if you get the chance.)



Logged

JREwing78

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1323
  • Location: Janesville, WI
  • Last Login: May 26, 2022, 11:25:51 AM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2021, 07:12:33 PM »

If I was going to rearrange anything at the I-96/275/696/M-5 interchange, I would have M-5 terminate at the interchange as in years past, and sign M-275 on the section of M-5 that continues north. It at least would reinforce the 275 designation on the N-S corridor. Honestly, though, the residents of metro Detroit would prefer it just be left alone as is.
Logged

Ryctor2018

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 148
  • Location: Illinois
  • Last Login: May 27, 2022, 04:44:20 PM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #90 on: December 16, 2021, 01:45:48 PM »

If I was going to rearrange anything at the I-96/275/696/M-5 interchange, I would have M-5 terminate at the interchange as in years past, and sign M-275 on the section of M-5 that continues north. It at least would reinforce the 275 designation on the N-S corridor. Honestly, though, the residents of metro Detroit would prefer it just be left alone as is.

MDOT actually did this (on paper) but changed their minds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_275_(Michigan)

I actually think it would have been better to continue M-275 as a through route regardless of roadway design. That way even if the freeway was cancelled a surface arterial or boulevard would suffice. There are few continuous N-S routes in western Oakland Co.
Logged
2DI's traveled: 5, 8, 10, 12, 15, 20, 24, 30, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 44, 45, 49, 55, 57, 59, 64, 65, 66, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 85, 87, 88, 90, 93, 94, 95, 96

Terry Shea

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 530
  • Last Login: Today at 03:13:00 AM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #91 on: December 16, 2021, 03:16:45 PM »

It would make things simpler. Plus MichDOT loves to petition AASHTO for US routes to be changed. Red, White, and Blue shields are no different than Black and White.


Yet for an even bigger bypass route of Detroit, if you were on I-94 in the western part of the state you could take I-69 to Port Huron and completely bypass Detroit. You'd go around the outskirts of Lansing and through Flint though but that isn't much of a problem.
Except for the never ending construction!
Logged

CoolAngrybirdsrio4

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 178
  • just looking at roads and stuff

  • Age: 20
  • Location: Ann Arbor
  • Last Login: May 25, 2022, 04:15:06 PM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #92 on: December 17, 2021, 05:04:04 PM »

I'd be okay with truncating it to I-96, the multiplex has always been weird in terms of signage.

I found this odd as well. If anything, I-275 should be truncated to I-96 and everything else would be left alone.
Logged
Renewed roadgeek

Ryctor2018

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 148
  • Location: Illinois
  • Last Login: May 27, 2022, 04:44:20 PM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #93 on: December 17, 2021, 06:17:46 PM »

I'd be okay with truncating it to I-96, the multiplex has always been weird in terms of signage.

I found this odd as well. If anything, I-275 should be truncated to I-96 and everything else would be left alone.

I-275 was there first (showing my age, here)! I remember when it was built. I-96 was moved to I-275 in the late 1970's.  The route was moved from the Farmington cutoff (now M-5) to the present route that exist. I-275 was still planned to continue north from its present terminus when I-96 was moved to be concurrent with I-275. Plus, it's the thru route. The population still calls the northern section I-275, not I-96. Only us roadgeeks care about the routing.

If you reach out to Chris Bessert, he can break down the in-n-out of I-275 around metro Detroit. He has researched the history of this.
Logged
2DI's traveled: 5, 8, 10, 12, 15, 20, 24, 30, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 44, 45, 49, 55, 57, 59, 64, 65, 66, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 85, 87, 88, 90, 93, 94, 95, 96

JREwing78

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1323
  • Location: Janesville, WI
  • Last Login: May 26, 2022, 11:25:51 AM
Re: I-275: Since It Will Never Go To Pontiac...
« Reply #94 on: December 19, 2021, 11:45:44 AM »

If you reach out to Chris Bessert, he can break down the in-n-out of I-275 around metro Detroit. He has researched the history of this.

http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/I-096.html
Logged

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.