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Interstate 35 border connections

Started by Chrysler375Freeway, October 17, 2021, 11:23:08 PM

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JREwing78

So, I did some more digging, because the Pembina numbers seemed awfully low. Of course, it's because we're looking at total traffic, which naturally favors border cities.

Turns out the US DOT has a site which, among other things, returns total truck traffic by year. So I figured it was worth pulling some numbers for 2019.
https://explore.dot.gov/views/BorderCrossingData/Annual?:isGuestRedirectFromVizportal=y&:embed=y

Some takeaways:

The crossing at Pembina, ND sees, on average, 603 trucks per day. Not Detroit level (4,200 trucks per day) or Port Huron level (2,200 trucks per day), but quite a bit for a border.

Portal, ND adds another 224 trucks per day. Pretty good for a middle-of-nowhere crossing with only 2-lane roads on each side.

By comparison:

       
  • Sweetgrass (MT): 386 trucks per day
  • Sault Ste. Marie: 110 trucks per day
  • International Falls: 45 trucks per day
  • Grand Portage: 34 trucks per day
  • Al-Can Highway: 19 trucks per day
  • Baudette: 14 trucks per day
  • Warroad: 13 trucks per day
  • Roseau: 8 trucks per day

Total border crossings by trucks for 2019:


Detroit1,541,294
Buffalo Niagara Falls904,788
Port Huron808,541
Blaine369,777
Champlain Rouses Point298,365
Pembina219,927
Alexandria Bay192,589
Sumas154,508
Sweetgrass140,803
Highgate Springs98,226
Derby Line90,807
Houlton90,051
Portal81,371
Jackman73,038
Calais65,612
Eastport57,603
Kenneth G Ward Poe44,442
Ogdensburg40,558
Sault Sainte Marie39,979
Oroville28,500
Massena25,949
Dunseith24,515
Frontier23,757
Van Buren21,484
Raymond18,736
International Falls16,416
Fort Kent14,150
Trout River13,117
Grand Portage12,490
Point Roberts11,851
Norton11,313
Northgate10,718
Roosville9,768
Beecher Falls9,580
Walhalla8,873
Westhope8,362
Neche7,835
Alcan6,985
Laurier6,703
Fort Fairfield6,553
Sherwood5,806
Lancaster5,276
Baudette5,007
Warroad4,845
Metaline Falls4,733
Bridgewater4,728
Richford4,429
Fortuna4,053
Porthill3,922
Noonan3,305
Roseau2,942
Madawaska2,141
Skagway2,140
Piegan2,055
Wildhorse1,983
Limestone1,939
Antler1,856
Carbury1,817
Dalton Cache1,086
St John984
Maida849
Del Bonita708
Danville666
Vanceboro615
Turner538
Sarles472
Scobey467
Port Angeles436
Opheim314
Boundary297
Pinecreek250
Morgan200
Hansboro169
Hannah116
Ferry62
Willow Creek9
Ambrose5
Whitlash1





















































































Joe The Dragon

Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on October 17, 2021, 11:23:08 PM
Okay, many people say that I-35 isn't a true border-to-border route because it ends in Duluth on its north end and ends a mere 3000 feet (914 meters) north of the Mexican border at an intersection on its south end that isn't grade-separated. Would using a short cut-cover tunnel to connect I-35 to the bridge in Laredo make sense? I know the lack of a Mexico border connection and connecting I-35 to Mexico is a topic for the Mid-South regional board, but I-35 falls short of connecting to either border. Would extending I-35 to Canada (International Falls) along Hwys. 33 and 53 via way of towns such as Cloquet and Virginia be feasible and/or make better sense than using Hwy. 61 northward to the border, albeit requiring a new border crossing because the alignment would be east of the downtown International Falls area due to opposition that would arise from routing I-35 through the heart of town?
over just route it over I-69W

oscar

Quote from: Joe The Dragon on October 19, 2021, 12:22:52 AM
over just route it over I-69W

Which also stops short of the border. And that border crossing is a toll bridge, restricted to trucks.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

SEWIGuy

Quote from: oscar on October 18, 2021, 11:05:44 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on October 18, 2021, 10:45:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 18, 2021, 10:01:46 PM
I thought I-69W already already went to the World Trade Bridge?
69W goes there, but only trucks can go there. No cars or pedestrians.

69W stops short of the border, before the toll plaza. Also, the bridge isn't open 24/7. Last I was there, it was closed on a Sunday afternoon.


How far short is that?  It seems we are being a little over pendantic about what "border connection" means here.

SkyPesos

#29
For those that are picky on whether a route stops at the border or just short of it, what would you say about I-69/94 at Port Huron? I've always thought of it ending at the border, but the US Customs for the WB side and toll booth for the EB side are both about 0.7 miles west of the border line, and Google Maps stops marking the road as I-69/94 (or ON 402) past that point.

skluth

Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 19, 2021, 08:45:36 AM
Quote from: oscar on October 18, 2021, 11:05:44 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on October 18, 2021, 10:45:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 18, 2021, 10:01:46 PM
I thought I-69W already already went to the World Trade Bridge?
69W goes there, but only trucks can go there. No cars or pedestrians.

69W stops short of the border, before the toll plaza. Also, the bridge isn't open 24/7. Last I was there, it was closed on a Sunday afternoon.


How far short is that?  It seems we are being a little over pendantic about what "border connection" means here.

Thanks. I was wondering why a toll plaza at the border doesn't count as going to the border. From my POV, it's a classic example of an interstate going to the border. It's an entirely limited access connection from the border, designated as an interstate and connecting to I-35 with high-speed flyover ramps.

vdeane

Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 19, 2021, 08:45:36 AM
Quote from: oscar on October 18, 2021, 11:05:44 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on October 18, 2021, 10:45:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 18, 2021, 10:01:46 PM
I thought I-69W already already went to the World Trade Bridge?
69W goes there, but only trucks can go there. No cars or pedestrians.

69W stops short of the border, before the toll plaza. Also, the bridge isn't open 24/7. Last I was there, it was closed on a Sunday afternoon.


How far short is that?  It seems we are being a little over pendantic about what "border connection" means here.
About 2/3 of a mile, at the last turnoff.  Note that the interstates that end at the Canadian border actually go to the border; they don't stop at customs or toll booths.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: vdeane on October 19, 2021, 10:25:31 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 19, 2021, 08:45:36 AM
Quote from: oscar on October 18, 2021, 11:05:44 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on October 18, 2021, 10:45:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 18, 2021, 10:01:46 PM
I thought I-69W already already went to the World Trade Bridge?
69W goes there, but only trucks can go there. No cars or pedestrians.

69W stops short of the border, before the toll plaza. Also, the bridge isn't open 24/7. Last I was there, it was closed on a Sunday afternoon.


How far short is that?  It seems we are being a little over pendantic about what "border connection" means here.
About 2/3 of a mile, at the last turnoff.  Note that the interstates that end at the Canadian border actually go to the border; they don't stop at customs or toll booths.


I think 2/3 of a mile is plenty close to consider it a "border connection."

vdeane

Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 20, 2021, 08:55:28 AM
Quote from: vdeane on October 19, 2021, 10:25:31 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 19, 2021, 08:45:36 AM
Quote from: oscar on October 18, 2021, 11:05:44 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on October 18, 2021, 10:45:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 18, 2021, 10:01:46 PM
I thought I-69W already already went to the World Trade Bridge?
69W goes there, but only trucks can go there. No cars or pedestrians.

69W stops short of the border, before the toll plaza. Also, the bridge isn't open 24/7. Last I was there, it was closed on a Sunday afternoon.


How far short is that?  It seems we are being a little over pendantic about what "border connection" means here.
About 2/3 of a mile, at the last turnoff.  Note that the interstates that end at the Canadian border actually go to the border; they don't stop at customs or toll booths.


I think 2/3 of a mile is plenty close to consider it a "border connection."
Would you also consider I-35 as having a border connection?  Because its south end is even closer.  Sure, it's not a freeway connection, but there are forum users (mostly from Ontario) who would vehemently argue that toll barriers and customs plazas automatically disqualify a road from being considered a freeway.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

SkyPesos

Quote from: vdeane on October 20, 2021, 01:14:48 PM
but there are forum users (mostly from Ontario) who would vehemently argue that toll barriers and customs plazas automatically disqualify a road from being considered a freeway.
That sounds a bit extreme to me. The following 2di would have non-freeway portions if that's the case:

I-44
I-64
I-69
I-70
I-75
I-76
I-77
I-78
I-80
I-81
I-87
I-88
I-90
I-94
I-95

SEWIGuy

Quote from: vdeane on October 20, 2021, 01:14:48 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 20, 2021, 08:55:28 AM
Quote from: vdeane on October 19, 2021, 10:25:31 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 19, 2021, 08:45:36 AM
Quote from: oscar on October 18, 2021, 11:05:44 PM
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on October 18, 2021, 10:45:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 18, 2021, 10:01:46 PM
I thought I-69W already already went to the World Trade Bridge?
69W goes there, but only trucks can go there. No cars or pedestrians.

69W stops short of the border, before the toll plaza. Also, the bridge isn't open 24/7. Last I was there, it was closed on a Sunday afternoon.


How far short is that?  It seems we are being a little over pendantic about what "border connection" means here.
About 2/3 of a mile, at the last turnoff.  Note that the interstates that end at the Canadian border actually go to the border; they don't stop at customs or toll booths.


I think 2/3 of a mile is plenty close to consider it a "border connection."
Would you also consider I-35 as having a border connection?  Because its south end is even closer.  Sure, it's not a freeway connection, but there are forum users (mostly from Ontario) who would vehemently argue that toll barriers and customs plazas automatically disqualify a road from being considered a freeway.


I think they are being overly pedantic.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 20, 2021, 01:34:43 PM
I think they are being overly pedantic.

People being pedantic on AARoads? Nah......

Chris

TXtoNJ

Surprised that there's no mention of Duluth's importance as an aquatic port of entry from Canada that justifies it being on a major Interstate.

hotdogPi

Quote from: SkyPesos on October 20, 2021, 01:18:44 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 20, 2021, 01:14:48 PM
but there are forum users (mostly from Ontario) who would vehemently argue that toll barriers and customs plazas automatically disqualify a road from being considered a freeway.
That sounds a bit extreme to me. The following 2di would have non-freeway portions if that's the case:

I-44
I-64
I-69
I-70
I-75
I-76
I-77
I-78
I-80
I-81
I-87
I-88
I-90
I-94
I-95

Three of those already have non-freeway portions (Breezewood, Jersey City, and Thousand Islands).
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: TXtoNJ on October 20, 2021, 04:23:00 PM
Surprised that there's no mention of Duluth's importance as an aquatic port of entry from Canada that justifies it being on a major Interstate.

I don't think anyone was arguing whether Duluth deserved to be on I-35; the argument was why it ends there rather than going to the border.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

JREwing78

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 20, 2021, 05:22:00 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on October 20, 2021, 04:23:00 PM
Surprised that there's no mention of Duluth's importance as an aquatic port of entry from Canada that justifies it being on a major Interstate.

I don't think anyone was arguing whether Duluth deserved to be on I-35; the argument was why it ends there rather than going to the border.
Exactly. It was a discussion about why I-35 doesn't extend to the Canadian border. Besides the horrible expense of punching a Interstate-standard freeway along the North Shore, there's not enough traffic at the border crossing to warrant extending I-35 all the way to the border.

SM-G991U


Rothman

#41
Quote from: TXtoNJ on October 20, 2021, 04:23:00 PM
Surprised that there's no mention of Duluth's importance as an aquatic port of entry from Canada that justifies it being on a major Interstate.
When I lived in Superior, I was part of a local lobby group that wanted to get the Soo Locks expanded to accomodate larger ships.  Headed down to Madison for WI to pay its share.  That was about 20 years ago.  Still hasn't happened.

When PANAMAX ships and the like come into the Great Lakes, then Duluth will really matter...maybe... :D

(Welland Canal would also need widening...which will never happen)
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

TheHighwayMan3561

#42
Quote from: Rothman on October 20, 2021, 06:42:32 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on October 20, 2021, 04:23:00 PM
Surprised that there's no mention of Duluth's importance as an aquatic port of entry from Canada that justifies it being on a major Interstate.
When I lived in Superior, I was part of a local lobby group that wanted to get the Soo Locks expanded to accomodate larger ships.  Headed down to Madison for WI to pay its share.  That was about 20 years ago.  Still hasn't happened.

I get the sense that enviro attitudes from those living around the lake have generally swung too far left for this to be viable at this point. Duluth is planning accommodations for cruise ships, which has generated some grumbling in that city.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

GaryV

#43
Quote from: Rothman on October 20, 2021, 06:42:32 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on October 20, 2021, 04:23:00 PM
Surprised that there's no mention of Duluth's importance as an aquatic port of entry from Canada that justifies it being on a major Interstate.
When I lived in Superior, I was part of a local lobby group that wanted to get the Soo Locks expanded to accomodate larger ships.  Headed down to Madison for WI to pay its share.  That was about 20 years ago.  Still hasn't happened.

When PANAMAX ships and the like come into the Great Lakes, then Duluth will really matter...maybe... :D

(Welland Canal would also need widening...which will never happen)

Welland Canal and the whole St Lawrence Seaway would need bigger locks.

Soo Locks are finally beginning construction of another 1200x110 lock, so that if the Poe Lock ever goes down there wouldn't be a huge economic impact on shipping.

BTW, almost nothing coming into Duluth comes from Canada (except maybe the occasional load of limestone).  Some iron ore shipped from Duluth or other MN ports would end up in Nanticoke or Hamilton.

There has been interest in smaller container ships on the Great Lakes.  There are 2 primary objections.  First, a larger ship coming in to Halifax would need to be unloaded and then the containers put onto the smaller Great Lakes boat.  And the winter shut-down would cause havoc with shippers - they don't want to have to find alternate modes for 2-3 months of the year.

Rothman

Quote from: GaryV on October 20, 2021, 07:22:19 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 20, 2021, 06:42:32 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on October 20, 2021, 04:23:00 PM
Surprised that there's no mention of Duluth's importance as an aquatic port of entry from Canada that justifies it being on a major Interstate.
When I lived in Superior, I was part of a local lobby group that wanted to get the Soo Locks expanded to accomodate larger ships.  Headed down to Madison for WI to pay its share.  That was about 20 years ago.  Still hasn't happened.

When PANAMAX ships and the like come into the Great Lakes, then Duluth will really matter...maybe... :D

(Welland Canal would also need widening...which will never happen)

Welland Canal and the whole St Lawrence Seaway would need bigger locks.

Soo Locks are finally beginning construction of another 1200x110 lock, so that if the Poe Lock ever goes down there wouldn't be a huge economic impact on shipping.

BTW, almost nothing coming into Duluth comes from Canada (except maybe the occasional load of limestone).  Some iron ore shipped from Duluth or other MN ports would end up in Nanticoke or Hamilton.

There has been interest in smaller container ships on the Great Lakes.  There are 2 primary objections.  First, a larger ship coming in to Halifax would need to be unloaded and then the containers put onto the smaller Great Lakes boat.  And the winter shut-down would cause havoc with shippers - they don't want to have to find alternate modes for 2-3 months of the year.


When I lived there, it was said the 1,000 footers were stuck in the Great Lakes due to the lack of larger locks.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

vdeane

Quote from: 1 on October 20, 2021, 04:44:23 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 20, 2021, 01:18:44 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 20, 2021, 01:14:48 PM
but there are forum users (mostly from Ontario) who would vehemently argue that toll barriers and customs plazas automatically disqualify a road from being considered a freeway.
That sounds a bit extreme to me. The following 2di would have non-freeway portions if that's the case:

I-44
I-64
I-69
I-70
I-75
I-76
I-77
I-78
I-80
I-81
I-87
I-88
I-90
I-94
I-95

Three of those already have non-freeway portions (Breezewood, Jersey City, and Thousand Islands).
Agree about Breezewood and Jersey City, but not the Thousand Islands Bridge.  Two lane undivided freeways exist.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

triplemultiplex

Quote from: Rothman on October 20, 2021, 07:37:09 PM
When I lived there, it was said the 1,000 footers were stuck in the Great Lakes due to the lack of larger locks.

Very true.  There are dozens of vessels confined to the four lakes above Niagara Falls/Welland Canal.  Most are ore boats.

The idea of PANAMAX ships in Lake Superior seems like utter fantasy.  The big markets are all downstream from The Soo.  At best, getting them above Niagara Falls might have some merit since a container ship could go straight to Chicago without having to offload onto rail and truck on the coast.  Only Chicago is large enough to make such an effort worthwhile.  As an existing transportation hub with large brownfields areas near the shore down by Indiana that could be turned into a container port, it would be in better position to handle the job compared to anything further upstream.

Even then I have my doubts about the viability of such an endeavor simply because most of the stuff those ships would carry is coming from East Asia and the extra time to go all the way around and up into the Lakes seems like it might not be worth it to make every canal and lock between Lake Erie and Montreal big enough.  Maybe if the Midwest swells with climate refugees from the West and South, it'll be viable. :-P
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

Rothman

Quote from: triplemultiplex on October 21, 2021, 02:34:15 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 20, 2021, 07:37:09 PM
When I lived there, it was said the 1,000 footers were stuck in the Great Lakes due to the lack of larger locks.

Very true.  There are dozens of vessels confined to the four lakes above Niagara Falls/Welland Canal.  Most are ore boats.

The idea of PANAMAX ships in Lake Superior seems like utter fantasy.  The big markets are all downstream from The Soo.  At best, getting them above Niagara Falls might have some merit since a container ship could go straight to Chicago without having to offload onto rail and truck on the coast.  Only Chicago is large enough to make such an effort worthwhile.  As an existing transportation hub with large brownfields areas near the shore down by Indiana that could be turned into a container port, it would be in better position to handle the job compared to anything further upstream.

Even then I have my doubts about the viability of such an endeavor simply because most of the stuff those ships would carry is coming from East Asia and the extra time to go all the way around and up into the Lakes seems like it might not be worth it to make every canal and lock between Lake Erie and Montreal big enough.  Maybe if the Midwest swells with climate refugees from the West and South, it'll be viable. :-P
Heh.  Yep, I agree.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

skluth

^
Widening the St Lawrence Seaway locks and canals would make sense if/when the Arctic ice melts and East Asia producers ship their products via the Northwest Passage. Ships won't even be limited by PANAMAX restrictions. There's potentially a viable route to the Great Lakes via the Northwest Passage/ Baffin Bay/ Labrador Sea/ Strait of Belle Isle/ Gulf of St Lawrence. Otherwise, it's just cheaper to use the East Coast ports (NYC, Philly, Norfolk, Charleston, Savannah, Jacksonville) and use road and rail to ship products to the Midwest.

froggie

I don't see it being very feasible from East Asia even with climate change.  For starters, the Northwest Passage would only be useful for a few months out of the year (it will still ice over in the winter).  Secondly, for a theoretical ship departing Hong Kong, it's approximately 6,000nm to Seattle and 6,500nm to L.A., while via the Northwest Passage it's 8,500nm just to get to Montreal (let alone into the Great Lakes).



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