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State Lays Out Vision for U.S. 23 Corridor Through Central Ohio

Started by rte66man, June 18, 2024, 09:14:23 AM

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rte66man

https://www.toledoblade.com/local/transportation/2024/06/17/state-lays-out-vision-us-23-corridor-through-central-ohio/stories/20240617126

QuoteDELAWARE, Ohio – State transportation officials on Monday laid out a proposal for overhauling the last stretch of U.S. 23 north of Columbus that they say will reduce the number of stoplights from 39 to seven by building new interchanges, overpasses, and restricted U-turn lanes.

But Gov. Mike DeWine stressed that this is not the state's answer to finding a faster and safer way for the Toledo area to connect with the state capital. The proposed answer to that question will come later this year.

"We're not taking anything else off the table," he said at Columbus State Community College's Delaware campus. "...The question of how long it takes to get from the Statehouse to downtown Toledo is intertwined deeply with what goes on in Route 23. ... These are things that we are comfortable doing that we know will save lives and will help anybody who drives on north 23 out of Columbus."

And it would also be extremely expensive, with the very preliminary ballpark at between $1.4 and $1.9 billion and would take years to complete. So far the state has committed just $17 million for initial design work for a segment north of the city of Delaware.

The $13.5 billion, two-year transportation budget enacted last year held $10 million for a Strategic Transportation and Development Analysis of demographic and congestion trends over the next 10, 20, and 30 years. The idea is to predict future needs to keep traffic flowing.

As part of that study, the Ohio Department of Transportation, the Toledo Metropolitan Area Council of Governments, and the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission are looking at potential corridors better connecting Columbus with both Toledo and Sandusky.

Improvements to the 23-mile stretch of heavily congested, stoplight-ridden Route 23 corridor between the I-270 Columbus Beltway in Worthington and Waldo, about 100 miles south of Toledo, could be just one step in that direction.

Public hearings on the recommendations for this stretch will be held in early August.

The Route 23 corridor carries some 30 percent more traffic than it was designed for. Southbound highway traffic from I-75 and State Rt. 15 bottlenecks further south, particularly in the heavily developed cities of Delaware and Lewis Center before reaching I-270.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra


The Ghostbuster

Does anyone think this has any chance of eventually being constructed? The corridor is very built-up between Columbus and Waldo, and I imagine the NIMBYs would be screaming "bloody murder" about any improvements, especially between Interstate 270 and the city of Delaware. I suppose they could build more underpasses like the one that exists just north of 270: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.117216,-83.0161782,3a,75y,341.06h,89.55t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sz3MNd03u3w-oGo6FDnOhUA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dz3MNd03u3w-oGo6FDnOhUA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D341.0594631891904%26pitch%3D0.448495318116386%26thumbfov%3D90!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu. I'll believe it when I see it.

carbaugh2

This proposal has legs because it is coming from Gov. DeWine's office. Here are the official press release and recommendations:

https://governor.ohio.gov/media/news-and-media/governor-dewine-odot-announce-safety-recommendations-for-us-23-corridor

https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/OHIOGOVERNOR/2024/06/14/file_attachments/2908678/US%2023%20Recommendations%20One-Pager-FINAL%20%281%29.pdf

He has had multiple press conferences with ODOT for priorities of his office, including other safety projects that have been completed or are currently underway.


TempoNick

Quote from: carbaugh2 on June 18, 2024, 05:25:24 PMThis proposal has legs because it is coming from Gov. DeWine's office. Here are the official press release and recommendations:


I just hope they don't end up doing what they did to US 19 in Pinellas county, Florida, where they installed a bunch of overpasses. I don't like how they elevated the road. Things just don't flow naturally between the traffic and the shopping centers and everything else going on. I don't like the way it looks and I think it disrupts how people get to shopping, dining and all of the other things they need to do and in their everyday life with respect to the businesses along US 19.

I think they should install a bunch of J-turns up until you get to Kroger. North of Kroger, you can start installing overpasses. Maybe you can install an overpass at Powell Road. That won't be too disruptive.

DeWine did say that this is not going to be the Toledo to Columbus fix. This is only to fix US 23 between Columbus and Waldo.

The Ghostbuster

The segment between Columbus and Waldo is the most pressing segment that needs upgrading. The portion from Waldo to Carey is already a four-lane roadway with bypasses, and I'm not sure if the portion from Carey to Toledo needs an expansion to four lanes.

JREwing78

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 19, 2024, 11:28:40 AMThe segment between Columbus and Waldo is the most pressing segment that needs upgrading. The portion from Waldo to Carey is already a four-lane roadway with bypasses, and I'm not sure if the portion from Carey to Toledo needs an expansion to four lanes.
It's unclear why ODOT hasn't petitioned to move the US-23 designation onto OH-15 and I-75, though that was clearly the intent when they built out the 4-lane expressway between Findlay and Carey. Nobody besides roadgeeks and folks blindly following route designations has a reason to follow US-23 instead of staying on the 4-lane.

If AASHTO wants to maintain a US Highway designation on the existing US-23 section, ODOT can extend US-223 south (ideally, having it follow I-475 and I-75 around the north side of Toledo to I-280, then south. Otherwise, extending OH-420 would work fine.

wriddle082

Wonder if they'll do like Independence Blvd. (US 74) in Charlotte, NC and make it a superstreet.  Build tight interchanges where feasible, prohibit all left turns (make u-turns at the interchanges), and maintain driveway access to existing businesses via a dedicated right turn lane.  Could even have an HOV or bus lane element in the median.

TempoNick

Quote from: JREwing78 on June 19, 2024, 08:25:23 PMIt's unclear why ODOT hasn't petitioned to move the US-23 designation onto OH-15 and I-75, though that was clearly the intent when they built out the 4-lane expressway between Findlay and Carey. Nobody besides roadgeeks and folks blindly following route designations has a reason to follow US-23 instead of staying on the 4-lane.

There are a several of these kinds of anomalies that need to be fixed:
-Ohio 161/37/16 East of Columbus

-US 33 needs to be removed from surface roads going through Columbus. Two options: 1) Either I-270 connecting both US 33 segments; or, 2) US 33 follows Ohio 104/71/315/270 to connect the two segments. Option 1 seems cleaner and less confusing. US 33 inside I-270 can be given a different number.

- US 23/Ohio 15

- US 23/Ohio 823

I'm sure there are more, but that's what I can think of off the top of my head.


Molandfreak

Quote from: JREwing78 on June 19, 2024, 08:25:23 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 19, 2024, 11:28:40 AMThe segment between Columbus and Waldo is the most pressing segment that needs upgrading. The portion from Waldo to Carey is already a four-lane roadway with bypasses, and I'm not sure if the portion from Carey to Toledo needs an expansion to four lanes.
It's unclear why ODOT hasn't petitioned to move the US-23 designation onto OH-15 and I-75, though that was clearly the intent when they built out the 4-lane expressway between Findlay and Carey. Nobody besides roadgeeks and folks blindly following route designations has a reason to follow US-23 instead of staying on the 4-lane.

If AASHTO wants to maintain a US Highway designation on the existing US-23 section, ODOT can extend US-223 south (ideally, having it follow I-475 and I-75 around the north side of Toledo to I-280, then south. Otherwise, extending OH-420 would work fine.
Actually, they really messed up and moved it from modern-day SR 199 to another random two-lane road... Whoever was in charge, both at AASHTO and ODOT during those years, did the public a great disservice with that plan. Was Fostoria upset at the prospect of losing US highway access? If that was the case, extending 223 down that corridor would have been a much better option.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PM
AASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

wanderer2575

Quote from: JREwing78 on June 19, 2024, 08:25:23 PMIf AASHTO wants to maintain a US Highway designation on the existing US-23 section, ODOT can extend US-223 south (ideally, having it follow I-475 and I-75 around the north side of Toledo to I-280, then south.

That extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.

TempoNick

Quote from: Molandfreak on June 23, 2024, 03:39:01 PMIt's unclear why ODOT hasn't petitioned to move the US-23 designation onto OH-15 and I-75, though that was clearly the intent when they built out the 4-lane expressway between Findlay and Carey. Nobody besides roadgeeks and folks blindly following route designations has a reason to follow US-23 instead of staying on the 4-lane.

If AASHTO wants to maintain a US Highway designation on the existing US-23 section, ODOT can extend US-223 south (ideally, having it follow I-475 and I-75 around the north side of Toledo to I-280, then south. Otherwise, extending OH-420 would work fine.

It's not so much about messing up as it is about NEVER GETTING FIXED. You would think someone at ODOT would say, "Hey, this is pretty stupid. Let's fix it." Same with US 33 through Columbus. I don't get it.

TempoNick

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:31:55 PMThat extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.

There is nothing at all illogical about it. For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway. A highway that appears to the driver as a single highway should have a uniform number rather than switching numbers for no apparent reason, not to mention that it is a four lane highway through most of the state.

US 23 to I-75, then concurrent with I-75 until I-475 W. Problem solved.

The two lane segment of US 23 can become US 223. You can even put decals over the existing signs if you want to save a few bucks.

Molandfreak

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:31:55 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on June 19, 2024, 08:25:23 PMIf AASHTO wants to maintain a US Highway designation on the existing US-23 section, ODOT can extend US-223 south (ideally, having it follow I-475 and I-75 around the north side of Toledo to I-280, then south.

That extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.
How does using 223 as a crutch make less sense than having a US highway following a long-distance expressway suddenly exit that expressway to serve some random podunk towns, then rejoin the expressway routing later?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PM
AASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

wanderer2575

Quote from: TempoNick on June 23, 2024, 05:39:48 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:31:55 PMThat extension routing makes less sense than the current routing of US-23.  You're not helping the argument to eliminate an illogical routing by proposing an even more ludicrous one.

There is nothing at all illogical about it. For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway. A highway that appears to the driver as a single highway should have a uniform number rather than switching numbers for no apparent reason, not to mention that it is a four lane highway through most of the state.

US 23 to I-75, then concurrent with I-75 until I-475 W. Problem solved.

I don't argue against that at all.  I argue that the suggested extension routing of US-224 (to keep a US route on the existing US-23 alignment) makes even less sense than the current US-23 routing.  "For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway."  I agree.  Are you going to say that I-475 <-> I-75 <-> I-280 also is, for all intents and purposes, one highway?  (Although an interesting side effect is that the I-280 and OH-420 designations could be eliminated.)

TempoNick

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:53:20 PMI don't argue against that at all.  I argue that the suggested extension routing of US-224 (to keep a US route on the existing US-23 alignment) makes even less sense than the current US-23 routing.  "For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway."  I agree.  Are you going to say that I-475 <-> I-75 <-> I-280 also is, for all intents and purposes, one highway?  (Although an interesting side effect is that the I-280 and OH-420 designations could be eliminated.)

Yeah, I have to agree with you there. Just a quick look at the map shows that OH 420 is the only one that "might" make sense. I don't know, is it some kind of a big insult against the town if the road going to it is downgraded from a US Route to a state route? Doesn't sound like that big of a deal to me. After all, US Routes are just state routes that (usually) cross more than one state.

I guess they could call it Alt 23 if they want.

wanderer2575

Quote from: TempoNick on June 25, 2024, 12:29:33 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 23, 2024, 05:53:20 PMI don't argue against that at all.  I argue that the suggested extension routing of US-224 (to keep a US route on the existing US-23 alignment) makes even less sense than the current US-23 routing.  "For all intents and purposes, Ohio 15 and US 23 are the same highway."  I agree.  Are you going to say that I-475 <-> I-75 <-> I-280 also is, for all intents and purposes, one highway?  (Although an interesting side effect is that the I-280 and OH-420 designations could be eliminated.)

Yeah, I have to agree with you there. Just a quick look at the map shows that OH 420 is the only one that "might" make sense. I don't know, is it some kind of a big insult against the town if the road going to it is downgraded from a US Route to a state route? Doesn't sound like that big of a deal to me. After all, US Routes are just state routes that (usually) cross more than one state.

Well, look at all the states and cities that have pushed over the years to get US routes upgraded to Interstate designations (and I'm not talking about physical road features; I'm talking about the red-white-blue route shield) for the sake of that magical "economic development," and I can see where a city or town might have an issue with losing even the US route designation.  Fostoria, for one, is a decent-sized town that might take exception, although other posted state routes run through it.

Then again, I don't know that there was significant pushback when long stretches of US-24 and US-30 were turned over to counties and townships, not even getting state route designations, as new expressway alignments were built.  (OH-424 being an exception, but the designation no longer exists.)

TempoNick

Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 26, 2024, 12:43:37 PMWell, look at all the states and cities that have pushed over the years to get US routes upgraded to Interstate designations (and I'm not talking about physical road features; I'm talking about the red-white-blue route shield) for the sake of that magical "economic development,"

I am all for that because I think that Red White and Blue shield sends a message to drivers, that message being that you're going to be driving on a four-lane divided highway and you're not going to be stuck in traffic lights.

GaryV

Quote from: TempoNick on June 27, 2024, 03:16:18 PMthat message being that you're going to be driving on a four-lane divided highway

And those of us who know how to read maps know that without the fancy R/W/B sign.

PColumbus73

I would be interested to hear how Ohio handles renumbering / realignments. Perhaps Ohio prefers not to have a concurrency between Interstates and non-interstates?

If that were the case, perhaps Ohio would prefer US 23 not to have a 50-mile concurrency with I-75 / 475. Also, why not leave US 23 as an alternative to I-75 by leaving it as-is? US 40 parallels I-70 most of the way through the state, I don't see the problem with US 23 doing the same.

Also, personally, I think it's better to have routes going through the city (i.e. Columbus) over getting clumped on the beltway (i.e. Indianapolis).

Molandfreak

#19
Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 28, 2024, 04:51:17 PMI would be interested to hear how Ohio handles renumbering / realignments. Perhaps Ohio prefers not to have a concurrency between Interstates and non-interstates?

If that were the case, perhaps Ohio would prefer US 23 not to have a 50-mile concurrency with I-75 / 475. Also, why not leave US 23 as an alternative to I-75 by leaving it as-is? US 40 parallels I-70 most of the way through the state, I don't see the problem with US 23 doing the same.

Also, personally, I think it's better to have routes going through the city (i.e. Columbus) over getting clumped on the beltway (i.e. Indianapolis).
In any case, the status quo is terrible because US 23 is an expressway (for the most part) throughout the rest of Ohio and a good chunk of Michigan (heck, almost all of it north of Georgia). Swapping route quality from the expressway you take a long distance to the parallel surface road, then back again makes zero sense. Even worse that AASHTO approved a move from its original surface route to another random-ass surface street. It shows that they weren't doing their jobs correctly since it is their job to ensure US highways follow the most efficient route between two points. Wyoming is forced to keep US 87 on an alignment that is permanently closed because AASHTO wants it moved to I-90 rather than WYO 193, the nearest parallel surface alignment. The same should have happened to US 23--Ohio should have been forced to either keep it on its original surface street alignment or move it to SR 15/I-75/I-475.

The status quo is not helpful to travellers between Flint/Ann Arbor and Columbus. The US highway serving the three cities should follow the best route possible, ensuring travellers don't have to keep track of staying on US 23 until SR 15, then taking SR 15 to I-75, then taking I-75 to I-475, then getting back on US 23. Why is that logical when it could all be US 23?

US 40 makes sense because it is consistent in quality as a parallel route. In no place is it the main route between major metropolitan areas, so leaving it is not unhelpful to motorists visiting who may not wish to rely on their GPS all the time. Unless Ohio does something like the Avenue of the Saints to assign one state route number to the entire Toledo-Columbus corridor, there's no comparison there.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PM
AASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

PColumbus73

Quote from: Molandfreak on June 28, 2024, 05:30:44 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 28, 2024, 04:51:17 PMI would be interested to hear how Ohio handles renumbering / realignments. Perhaps Ohio prefers not to have a concurrency between Interstates and non-interstates?

If that were the case, perhaps Ohio would prefer US 23 not to have a 50-mile concurrency with I-75 / 475. Also, why not leave US 23 as an alternative to I-75 by leaving it as-is? US 40 parallels I-70 most of the way through the state, I don't see the problem with US 23 doing the same.

Also, personally, I think it's better to have routes going through the city (i.e. Columbus) over getting clumped on the beltway (i.e. Indianapolis).
In any case, the status quo is terrible because US 23 is an expressway (for the most part) throughout the rest of Ohio and a good chunk of Michigan (heck, almost all of it north of Georgia). Swapping route quality from the expressway you take a long distance to the parallel surface road, then back again makes zero sense. Even worse that AASHTO approved a move from its original surface route to another random-ass surface street. It shows that they weren't doing their jobs correctly since it is their job to ensure US highways follow the most efficient route between two points. Wyoming is forced to keep US 87 on an alignment that is permanently closed because AASHTO wants it moved to I-90 rather than WYO 193, the nearest parallel surface alignment. The same should have happened to US 23--Ohio should have been forced to either keep it on its original surface street alignment or move it to SR 15/I-75/I-475.

The status quo is not helpful to travellers between Flint/Ann Arbor and Columbus. The US highway serving the three cities should follow the best route possible, ensuring travellers don't have to keep track of staying on US 23 until SR 15, then taking SR 15 to I-75, then taking I-75 to I-475, then getting back on US 23. Why is that logical when it could all be US 23?

US 40 makes sense because it is consistent in quality as a parallel route. In no place is it the main route between major metropolitan areas, so leaving it is not unhelpful to motorists visiting who may not wish to rely on their GPS all the time. Unless Ohio does something like the Avenue of the Saints to assign one state route number to the entire Toledo-Columbus corridor, there's no comparison there.

The two-lane portion of US 23 can still maintain a 55 MPH speed limit outside the cities. And yes, it is a four-lane highway for a healthy portion, but that doesn't dictate that the entire stretch has to be four lanes. And except for going through Fostoria, US 23 runs in a straight line between US 20 and OH 15. So even though that section is not an expressway, it's still a fairly straight and efficient route between Toledo and Columbus, drivers simply can't do 65-70 MPH (legally).

Regarding GPS users, it's my impression that they're listening more for the turn instructions. And it's not like OH 15 isn't well-signed for I-75 and Toledo, and for Columbus heading southbound. I don't really see anything that would shock regular drivers. In my neck of the woods, it doesn't shock or confuse anyone when they have to take SC 38 to connect between I-95 and US 501 to get to Myrtle Beach. In that example the four-lane 'expressway' defaults onto SC 38 to connect to I-95 the while US 501 route exits and reduces to a two-lane road. For both OH 15 and SC 38, it's not like anyone feels they're taking some random back road to get to where they are going.


Molandfreak

Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 28, 2024, 10:09:23 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on June 28, 2024, 05:30:44 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 28, 2024, 04:51:17 PMI would be interested to hear how Ohio handles renumbering / realignments. Perhaps Ohio prefers not to have a concurrency between Interstates and non-interstates?

If that were the case, perhaps Ohio would prefer US 23 not to have a 50-mile concurrency with I-75 / 475. Also, why not leave US 23 as an alternative to I-75 by leaving it as-is? US 40 parallels I-70 most of the way through the state, I don't see the problem with US 23 doing the same.

Also, personally, I think it's better to have routes going through the city (i.e. Columbus) over getting clumped on the beltway (i.e. Indianapolis).
In any case, the status quo is terrible because US 23 is an expressway (for the most part) throughout the rest of Ohio and a good chunk of Michigan (heck, almost all of it north of Georgia). Swapping route quality from the expressway you take a long distance to the parallel surface road, then back again makes zero sense. Even worse that AASHTO approved a move from its original surface route to another random-ass surface street. It shows that they weren't doing their jobs correctly since it is their job to ensure US highways follow the most efficient route between two points. Wyoming is forced to keep US 87 on an alignment that is permanently closed because AASHTO wants it moved to I-90 rather than WYO 193, the nearest parallel surface alignment. The same should have happened to US 23--Ohio should have been forced to either keep it on its original surface street alignment or move it to SR 15/I-75/I-475.

The status quo is not helpful to travellers between Flint/Ann Arbor and Columbus. The US highway serving the three cities should follow the best route possible, ensuring travellers don't have to keep track of staying on US 23 until SR 15, then taking SR 15 to I-75, then taking I-75 to I-475, then getting back on US 23. Why is that logical when it could all be US 23?

US 40 makes sense because it is consistent in quality as a parallel route. In no place is it the main route between major metropolitan areas, so leaving it is not unhelpful to motorists visiting who may not wish to rely on their GPS all the time. Unless Ohio does something like the Avenue of the Saints to assign one state route number to the entire Toledo-Columbus corridor, there's no comparison there.

The two-lane portion of US 23 can still maintain a 55 MPH speed limit outside the cities. And yes, it is a four-lane highway for a healthy portion, but that doesn't dictate that the entire stretch has to be four lanes. And except for going through Fostoria, US 23 runs in a straight line between US 20 and OH 15. So even though that section is not an expressway, it's still a fairly straight and efficient route between Toledo and Columbus, drivers simply can't do 65-70 MPH (legally).

Regarding GPS users, it's my impression that they're listening more for the turn instructions. And it's not like OH 15 isn't well-signed for I-75 and Toledo, and for Columbus heading southbound. I don't really see anything that would shock regular drivers. In my neck of the woods, it doesn't shock or confuse anyone when they have to take SC 38 to connect between I-95 and US 501 to get to Myrtle Beach. In that example the four-lane 'expressway' defaults onto SC 38 to connect to I-95 the while US 501 route exits and reduces to a two-lane road. For both OH 15 and SC 38, it's not like anyone feels they're taking some random back road to get to where they are going.


How is it helpful when there is a good chance that US 23 will return to being your "main" route later on? The higher route designation suddenly exits to some random back road, only to return to being important later. I can think of only one other US highway that does this within a 100-mile span, and it's US 218 along the Avenue of the Saints. But the main road is clearly defined along IA-27. SR-15 has an unrelated component west of Findlay and ends abruptly on the expressway, so it's significantly more to keep track of.

If the goal was to provide a decent two-lane road between Columbus and Toledo, why doesn't it serve Toledo proper until it returns to an expressway alignment along I-475?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PM
AASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

PColumbus73

Quote from: Molandfreak on June 28, 2024, 11:14:00 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 28, 2024, 10:09:23 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on June 28, 2024, 05:30:44 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 28, 2024, 04:51:17 PMI would be interested to hear how Ohio handles renumbering / realignments. Perhaps Ohio prefers not to have a concurrency between Interstates and non-interstates?

If that were the case, perhaps Ohio would prefer US 23 not to have a 50-mile concurrency with I-75 / 475. Also, why not leave US 23 as an alternative to I-75 by leaving it as-is? US 40 parallels I-70 most of the way through the state, I don't see the problem with US 23 doing the same.

Also, personally, I think it's better to have routes going through the city (i.e. Columbus) over getting clumped on the beltway (i.e. Indianapolis).
In any case, the status quo is terrible because US 23 is an expressway (for the most part) throughout the rest of Ohio and a good chunk of Michigan (heck, almost all of it north of Georgia). Swapping route quality from the expressway you take a long distance to the parallel surface road, then back again makes zero sense. Even worse that AASHTO approved a move from its original surface route to another random-ass surface street. It shows that they weren't doing their jobs correctly since it is their job to ensure US highways follow the most efficient route between two points. Wyoming is forced to keep US 87 on an alignment that is permanently closed because AASHTO wants it moved to I-90 rather than WYO 193, the nearest parallel surface alignment. The same should have happened to US 23--Ohio should have been forced to either keep it on its original surface street alignment or move it to SR 15/I-75/I-475.

The status quo is not helpful to travellers between Flint/Ann Arbor and Columbus. The US highway serving the three cities should follow the best route possible, ensuring travellers don't have to keep track of staying on US 23 until SR 15, then taking SR 15 to I-75, then taking I-75 to I-475, then getting back on US 23. Why is that logical when it could all be US 23?

US 40 makes sense because it is consistent in quality as a parallel route. In no place is it the main route between major metropolitan areas, so leaving it is not unhelpful to motorists visiting who may not wish to rely on their GPS all the time. Unless Ohio does something like the Avenue of the Saints to assign one state route number to the entire Toledo-Columbus corridor, there's no comparison there.

The two-lane portion of US 23 can still maintain a 55 MPH speed limit outside the cities. And yes, it is a four-lane highway for a healthy portion, but that doesn't dictate that the entire stretch has to be four lanes. And except for going through Fostoria, US 23 runs in a straight line between US 20 and OH 15. So even though that section is not an expressway, it's still a fairly straight and efficient route between Toledo and Columbus, drivers simply can't do 65-70 MPH (legally).

Regarding GPS users, it's my impression that they're listening more for the turn instructions. And it's not like OH 15 isn't well-signed for I-75 and Toledo, and for Columbus heading southbound. I don't really see anything that would shock regular drivers. In my neck of the woods, it doesn't shock or confuse anyone when they have to take SC 38 to connect between I-95 and US 501 to get to Myrtle Beach. In that example the four-lane 'expressway' defaults onto SC 38 to connect to I-95 the while US 501 route exits and reduces to a two-lane road. For both OH 15 and SC 38, it's not like anyone feels they're taking some random back road to get to where they are going.


How is it helpful when there is a good chance that US 23 will return to being your "main" route later on? The higher route designation suddenly exits to some random back road, only to return to being important later. I can think of only one other US highway that does this within a 100-mile span, and it's US 218 along the Avenue of the Saints. But the main road is clearly defined along IA-27. SR-15 has an unrelated component west of Findlay and ends abruptly on the expressway, so it's significantly more to keep track of.

If the goal was to provide a decent two-lane road between Columbus and Toledo, why doesn't it serve Toledo proper until it returns to an expressway alignment along I-475?

The difference between a US route and a state route is that the US route is continuous across state lines. If the Interstates were never conceived, there might be more incentive to maintain US routes on the higher order roadway, but since they do, I think that allows the US routes to serve as intermediate arterials and fill a gap between the Interstates and state routes with the ability to adjust as the capacity commands, whether it be a two-lane road, or a multi-lane freeway or expressway. Currently, North Carolina is realigning some US routes (70 and 264 come to mind) off of limited access corridors, US 70 being rerouted through Greensboro, and US 264 to parallel the new I-587. For US 70, I think the reasoning is to make it easier to navigate through the city. Either way, since I-75 exists, and US 23 parallels it for 50 miles or so, I think it allows US 23 to serve as a local arterial while I-75 handles the through traffic.

And again, I think there is navigational value for allowing US routes to be maintained or reassigned off an Interstate, either for local use or as an incident bypass. It also becomes more cumbersome the more routes that get assigned to one alignment, I think that's another reason North Carolina as realigned some of their routes to older, two-lane alignments. Also, referencing back to I-465, which omits all the US and state routes that are concurrent with it, is there a record of someone following US 36, following the signs to use I-465, getting bamboozled because US 36 suddenly disappears on the beltway? For US and state routes that are concurrent to the Interstates, they often take a backseat anyway, so assuming US 23 was realigned, even as a secret concurrency, onto I-75/475, I don't think many would notice.

Lastly, just because US 23 doesn't enter the Toledo city limits doesn't mean it's not serving Toledo. I-70 doesn't enter the Dayton city limits, so does that mean I-70 doesn't serve Dayton at all?

TempoNick

Quote from: Molandfreak on June 28, 2024, 05:30:44 PMIn any case, the status quo is terrible because US 23 is an expressway (for the most part) throughout the rest of Ohio and a good chunk of Michigan (heck, almost all of it north of Georgia). Swapping route quality from the expressway you take a long distance to the parallel surface road, then back again makes zero sense. Even worse that AASHTO approved a move from its original surface route to another random-ass surface street. It shows that they weren't doing their jobs correctly since it is their job to ensure US highways follow the most efficient route between two points. Wyoming is forced to keep US 87 on an alignment that is permanently closed because AASHTO wants it moved to I-90 rather than WYO 193, the nearest parallel surface alignment. The same should have happened to US 23--Ohio should have been forced to either keep it on its original surface street alignment or move it to SR 15/I-75/I-475.

The status quo is not helpful to travellers between Flint/Ann Arbor and Columbus. The US highway serving the three cities should follow the best route possible, ensuring travellers don't have to keep track of staying on US 23 until SR 15, then taking SR 15 to I-75, then taking I-75 to I-475, then getting back on US 23. Why is that logical when it could all be US 23?

US 40 makes sense because it is consistent in quality as a parallel route. In no place is it the main route between major metropolitan areas, so leaving it is not unhelpful to motorists visiting who may not wish to rely on their GPS all the time. Unless Ohio does something like the Avenue of the Saints to assign one state route number to the entire Toledo-Columbus corridor, there's no comparison there.

Completely agree, and as I've said, US 33 should follow the same kind of routing. By virtue of being four laned from Columbus to I-77, it is a four-lane highway to Columbus and beyond. It makes absolutely no sense to go from four lane highway to surface roads nobody cares about within I-270 and then back to Highway again. These roads needs to be signed in a way that makes sense for the way people travel today. This is not 1950 where people are taking the 3C Highway to Cincinnati and Cleveland.

Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 29, 2024, 10:02:16 AMIf that were the case, perhaps Ohio would prefer US 23 not to have a 50-mile concurrency with I-75 / 475. Also, why not leave US 23 as an alternative to I-75 by leaving it as-is? US 40 parallels I-70 most of the way through the state, I don't see the problem with US 23 doing the same.


But it's simply isn't the way people travel. Everybody knows the route people would take from Columbus to Ann Arbor. That is US 23. There is no sense in cluttering things up by throwing Ohio 15 in the mix.

US 33 makes even less sense. Livingston Avenue being US 33 just does not work the way people travel today. Perhaps less of an argument on Dublin Road and Riverside Drive, but I would still opt for giving it a different number like Ohio 933 or something like that. Or just extend Ohio 257.



JREwing78

Running US-23 down I-75 to Findlay would be about a 35 mile concurrency with I-75. OH-15 east of I-75 has no purpose as a designation with a US-23 designation, and would go away. It's obvious the OH-15 designation is a placeholder, and the ultimate intent was for US-23 to continue to Findlay, then concurrent with I-75 to I-475. That is the undisputed through route, the highest-quality route between the two locations. There's no reason it shouldn't carry the US-23 designation.

Currently, the only reason for US-23 existence on the Woodville to Carey section is historical, and maintaining that path has resulted in some convoluted routing, with a short wrong-way concurrency with I-75 in Perrysburg and a longer concurrency with US-20 that serves no apparent purpose other than continuity. 

US-23 between US-20 and Carey is by no means a priority corridor. It's your typical low-traffic narrow 2-lane country roadway connecting a handful of small towns, with the traffic counts to match. Particularly since the six-laning of I-75 between Findlay and I-475, the only logical reason to choose US-23 past Carey would be a major traffic incident on I-75.



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