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Author Topic: Ontario's Highways  (Read 402945 times)

AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #325 on: April 22, 2015, 03:46:36 PM »

Sure, it seems out of place given knowledge of the highway history, but that old chestnut about the 90s restructuring being so very disruptive is not backed up empirically.

I would say that fact is, at best, debatable.
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cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #326 on: April 22, 2015, 05:29:36 PM »

Sure, it seems out of place given knowledge of the highway history, but that old chestnut about the 90s restructuring being so very disruptive is not backed up empirically.

I would say that fact is, at best, debatable.

Okay, let’s go through it then.  :-P

Apparently the numbers were off in my first post. The actual segments:


75 segments had the numbering retained as is:

Numbering maintained:
2 Tilbury to Hamilton
2 Hamilton-Toronto (no numbering applied, but was unassumed and known by names to begin with)
2 Toronto to Ganaoque
2 Gananoque to Lancaster
2A
3 Port Colborne
3 Fort Erie
4 north of Clinton
4 south of Talbotville
5 west of Peters Cors.
5 east of Clappisons Cors.
6 south of Port Dover
7 Brampton to Markham
8 Kitchener-Cambridge
8 Hamilton
12 Durham
14
15 south of 401
19 south of Tillsonburg
20
22
24 south of Simcoe
24A
25 south of Acton
25 north of Grand Valley
27 south of Barrie
27 north of Midhurst
28 south of Peterborough
29
31
32
33
34
36
38
41
42
43
45
46
48 northern segment
49
50
52
55
56
59 south of Courtland
62 Maynooth to Barrys Bay
73
74
76
78
79
80
81
83
84
86 west of Elmira
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
95
96
99
117
118
121 south of Haliburton
136
169 south leg
169 north leg
420

39 segments in which the route was renumbered to provide greater route continuity:

QEW – Gardiner transition at more logical point, a major interchange
3 – Leamington to Wheatley – incorporated into local road network
6 – Alvanley to Hepworth incorporated into county network
7 west of Thedford – renumbered to provide clearer navigation – CR-22 E-W, CR-79 N-S
7 – rerouted to better bypass Peterborough
7A – renumbered to provide proper through route for Hwy 7
15 – Carleton Place to Arnprior - Complete numerical consistency within section isolated from other, reversion to earlier number
16 – 416 to central Ottawa – consistent number for isolated segment
16 – renumbered to Hwy 416 with freeway upgrades
17 – now 174 in Ottawa
18 – fully incorporated into municipal network
19 – Ingersoll to St. Marys – isolated route number is continuous
19 – Stratford to Tralee – incorporated into county network
21 – south of 401 – incorporated into county network, transition at major junction (Hwy 401)
23 – highway rerouted, old segment incorporated into sequential CR system
24 – Paris to Brantford – rerouted onto more appropriate through route
24 – Shelburne to Collingwood – consistent number for isolated segment
25 – isolated segment between Acton and Ospringe has consistent number
25 – portion between Brisbane and Waldemar incorporated into RR-24 through route
28 – Peterborough to Lakefield – bypassed segment given new consistent number
35A – incorporated into county network
40 – south of 401 – incorporated into county network, transition at major junction (Hwy 401)
44 – extension of RR-49
51 – incorporated into longer CR-15
54 – N-S portion incorporated into through route of CR-18, E-W portion to Cayuga has consistent number
62 – Complete numerical consistency within section isolated from other
65 – rerouted onto more direct route
69 – renumbered to Hwy 400 with freeway upgrade
70 – renumbered to provide proper through route for Hwy 6
86 – renumbered to provide greater continuity with regional network, reversion to earlier number of Hwy 85
115 – highway rerouted, bypassed segment reverted to municipal names, Hwy 115 ends at more logical point (freeway end)
121 – Fenlon Falls to Minden, Now CR-21, so number is somewhat retained, isolated from unrelated section
121 – Haliburton to Hwy 28, incorporated into Hwy 118 through route
131 – incorporated into CR-27, a more direct routing
133 – incorporated into longer CR-4
134 - renumbered to provide proper through route for Hwy 28
148 – numerical consistency with county road


14 segments with numerical discontinuity:

2 – Windsor to Tilbury - numerical discontinuity at Essex-CK line
3 – Leamington bypass – incorporated into local road network, through movement turns from E-W to N-S
3 – Leamington to Talbotville - numerical discontinuity at Essex-CK line
7 – numerical discontinuity at Halton-Peel line
9 – Western segment connects into CR-109, proposal to renumber to Hwy 109 was rejected by local governments
11 – numerical discontinuity at York-Simcoe line
17 – numerical discontinuity at Ottawa-P&R line
47 – numerical discontinuity at York-Durham line
53 – numerical discontinuity at Oxford-Brant line
58 – Welland segment goes into RR-54
67 – south of Hwy 11 is named road
24 – numerical discontinuity at Waterloo-Wellington line
24 – numerical discontinuity at Wellington-Peel line
59 – numerical discontinuity at Oxford-Perth line


That being said, 4 of those 14 are where the highway goes from “xx” to “1xx” which isn’t rocket surgery to figure out. Additionally, there is very little through traffic at Tilbury (Hwy 2) and on Wheatley (Hwy 3). The balance of that, is yes, a little shaky. But not unmanageable.

And yes, this does omit B-routes, which are deliberately avoided due to concerns with 911 dispatch, and secondary highways that were transferred because I didn’t feel like going into those (though by and large they retained their numbers too).


Again, the vast majority of segments that were transferred either retained their numbers, or had their numbers changed to provide greater consistency. Sure, it’s harder to follow the old route of a road like Highway 25 without changing numbers, but the reason it was changed was that there wasn’t demand to do that.
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AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #327 on: April 22, 2015, 05:35:12 PM »

The loss of route hierarchy, additional duplication of important routes in a county...  I get your point I just don't agree with your assessment.
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SignGeek101

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #328 on: April 22, 2015, 11:24:34 PM »

I wouldn't say this sign is redundant.  In this case, Regional Road 7 is named Highway 7.  In this example, it is signed as it should be.

What if I changed it to {401} Highway 401?  Or {55} Interstate 55?  It very much is redundant to have a shield stating the route number and then repeating it with the text right afterward.

Perhaps you aren't familiar with Ontario's route classification system.  The \7/ refers to regional (or county) road.  In this case, York Regional Road 7 is also named Highway 7.  A regional road shield, often dubbed a flowerpot by roadgeeks (\_/) is not synonymous with a road being a highway.  If it was named and signed as "\7/ York Road 7" than it could be considered redundant.

I wasn't familiar with that. Thanks for explaining. Still, it would be nice for 7 to have a real name "XX Road" or something, other than "Highway 7".

cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #329 on: April 23, 2015, 09:52:15 AM »

The loss of route hierarchy, additional duplication of important routes in a county...  I get your point I just don't agree with your assessment.


I'll agree to disagree with you on the hierarchy point, though in terms of the duplication of routes, I think the issue has less to do with signage/guidance and more to do with service delivery. it would really benefit the province if the Ministry were to get back into the assumption and transfer of highways, but at this point it's not a financial reality. There are a few routes MTO has that really ought to be local, and there are a lot of major through routes that ought to be taken over - or taken back - by the province. But at this point, things are pretty frozen unfortunately.
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haljackey

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #330 on: April 23, 2015, 12:35:14 PM »

A series of sign replacements have been undertaken during the winter this year in the GTA.  Here are some before and after photos of the work:


Cool pics, thanks for sharing them!
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Haeleus

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #331 on: May 01, 2015, 02:14:51 PM »

I've always wondered since I've lived all my life in Ontario, but what is the historical reason provincial highways are portrayed differently on guide signs (number in a crown) vs. re-assurance shields on the side of the road (number in crest with a crown on top of it)? Off the top of my head I can't think of a single other example of this being done in any jurisdiction.
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jakeroot

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #332 on: May 01, 2015, 02:30:14 PM »

I've always wondered since I've lived all my life in Ontario, but what is the historical reason provincial highways are portrayed differently on guide signs (number in a crown) vs. re-assurance shields on the side of the road (number in crest with a crown on top of it)? Off the top of my head I can't think of a single other example of this being done in any jurisdiction.

British Columbia uses slighty simplified shields on guide signs. But certainly Ontario is the most extreme example.
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SignGeek101

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #333 on: May 01, 2015, 02:51:05 PM »

I've always wondered since I've lived all my life in Ontario, but what is the historical reason provincial highways are portrayed differently on guide signs (number in a crown) vs. re-assurance shields on the side of the road (number in crest with a crown on top of it)? Off the top of my head I can't think of a single other example of this being done in any jurisdiction.

British Columbia uses slighty simplified shields on guide signs. But certainly Ontario is the most extreme example.

There is a thread on the differences between BGS shields and stand alone shields and trailblazers.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14484.0

I know Ontario has been doing that for awhile now, probably since the 50's. I guess the standalone shield is too complicated to see on a BGS.

AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #334 on: May 04, 2015, 08:59:47 AM »

I took some new photos of the eastern extension of Hwy 407 through Durham Region east of Toronto:









The entire gallery of photos (including larger versions of the above) can be found here:
http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_407-409_images/407E/Hwy407_ConstructionImages.htm
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SignGeek101

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #335 on: May 04, 2015, 10:51:38 AM »

I took some new photos of the eastern extension of Hwy 407 through Durham Region east of Toronto:









The entire gallery of photos (including larger versions of the above) can be found here:
http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_407-409_images/407E/Hwy407_ConstructionImages.htm

Sweet. Hopefully they have it open in time. Will the new 407 be tolled?

cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #336 on: May 04, 2015, 11:08:52 AM »

I guess the standalone shield is too complicated to see on a BGS.

Exactly. The simplified version is for junctions as it is a cleaner look and more easily seen in those more cluttered situations. The more detailed shield is just for assurance markers.

And not just for freeway-sized signs either.





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AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #337 on: May 04, 2015, 11:15:10 AM »

I took some new photos of the eastern extension of Hwy 407 through Durham Region east of Toronto:









The entire gallery of photos (including larger versions of the above) can be found here:
http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_407-409_images/407E/Hwy407_ConstructionImages.htm

Sweet. Hopefully they have it open in time. Will the new 407 be tolled?

The extension of the 407 as well as both the 412 and 418 will be tolled.
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aboges26

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #338 on: May 04, 2015, 08:35:45 PM »

I took some new photos of the eastern extension of Hwy 407 through Durham Region east of Toronto:









The entire gallery of photos (including larger versions of the above) can be found here:
http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_407-409_images/407E/Hwy407_ConstructionImages.htm

Sweet. Hopefully they have it open in time. Will the new 407 be tolled?

The extension of the 407 as well as both the 412 and 418 will be tolled.

And it will be tolled by the MTO, not a private entity?  Correct?
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AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #339 on: May 04, 2015, 09:05:55 PM »

And it will be tolled by the MTO, not a private entity?  Correct?

That's right.  The 407 East has been tendered as a design-build-operate-maintain project.  So it will be maintained by the private sector, but tolls will be set by the province of Ontario.
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SignGeek101

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #340 on: May 05, 2015, 09:40:37 PM »

And it will be tolled by the MTO, not a private entity?  Correct?

That's right.  The 407 East has been tendered as a design-build-operate-maintain project.  So it will be maintained by the private sector, but tolls will be set by the province of Ontario.

I guess that is the first toll freeway in Ontario then that is not completely private. I wonder how Ontario will sign this.

cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #341 on: May 06, 2015, 09:31:07 AM »

And it will be tolled by the MTO, not a private entity?  Correct?

That's right.  The 407 East has been tendered as a design-build-operate-maintain project.  So it will be maintained by the private sector, but tolls will be set by the province of Ontario.

I guess that is the first toll freeway in Ontario then that is not completely private. I wonder how Ontario will sign this.

The ETR section was under a relatively similar sort of arrangement before the current service model was adopted in 1999.

In terms of signage, there was a myriad of different options we looked a while back, though I left that project before I'd seen what the final design was.
Just speculating, but perhaps the mock-up in the background here offers clues?

http://www.mykawartha.com/news-story/5543671-province-announces-plans-for-second-phase-of-highway-407-extension/
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SignGeek101

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #342 on: May 06, 2015, 08:09:28 PM »

And it will be tolled by the MTO, not a private entity?  Correct?

That's right.  The 407 East has been tendered as a design-build-operate-maintain project.  So it will be maintained by the private sector, but tolls will be set by the province of Ontario.

I guess that is the first toll freeway in Ontario then that is not completely private. I wonder how Ontario will sign this.

The ETR section was under a relatively similar sort of arrangement before the current service model was adopted in 1999.

In terms of signage, there was a myriad of different options we looked a while back, though I left that project before I'd seen what the final design was.
Just speculating, but perhaps the mock-up in the background here offers clues?

http://www.mykawartha.com/news-story/5543671-province-announces-plans-for-second-phase-of-highway-407-extension/

Wow. That's interesting. I was thinking it would look more of this, but I guess that looks good too:



A full tech drawing:

AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #343 on: May 07, 2015, 07:54:59 AM »

That wouldn't be a bad solution.  It seems more likely that toll tabs are going to be used, similar to those used in the US.  I was kind of hoping they would retain the pill bottom shape shield that was used for the 407 ETR (but drop the ETR), but that doesn't seem like it will be the case.

Of course, I don't actually know anything, so we shall see.
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cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #344 on: May 07, 2015, 12:59:07 PM »

That wouldn't be a bad solution.  It seems more likely that toll tabs are going to be used, similar to those used in the US.  I was kind of hoping they would retain the pill bottom shape shield that was used for the 407 ETR (but drop the ETR), but that doesn't seem like it will be the case.

Of course, I don't actually know anything, so we shall see.

They seem big on stressing the public ownership, so I can see the logic in staying in line with the standard marker there.
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cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #345 on: May 14, 2015, 12:24:10 PM »

New bridge linking Windsor and Detroit to be named the "Gordie Howe International Bridge"

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/news/live-stream-prime-minister-stephen-harper-makes-announcement-at-valiant-in-windsor
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SignGeek101

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #346 on: May 15, 2015, 01:50:14 AM »

New bridge linking Windsor and Detroit to be named the "Gordie Howe International Bridge"

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/news/live-stream-prime-minister-stephen-harper-makes-announcement-at-valiant-in-windsor

Well, I'm glad they're moving forward with this project.

They still need to acquire land on the US side and connect that with I-75. Also, the rest of the 401 hasn't been built past the Ojibway Pkwy. By 2020 though, at least the roads will be built.

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #347 on: May 18, 2015, 05:00:32 PM »

Victoria Day Fireworks seen from Hamilton's parkways

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SignGeek101

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #348 on: May 18, 2015, 06:02:24 PM »

Victoria Day Fireworks seen from Hamilton's parkways


I used to live just off Upper Paradise near that metal fencing in the median, 3:23 in your video but difficult to see. There is an underpass there I crossed frequently in my childhood.

Thanks for uploading.

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #349 on: May 29, 2015, 10:07:58 PM »

The temporary HOV lane markings that are being added for the PanAm games have been added to the 401 through Scarborough and Durham Region:



The HOV lanes will be in effect from June 29, and require three occupants for travel.
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