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Author Topic: Ontario's Highways  (Read 403658 times)

SignGeek101

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #375 on: June 16, 2015, 11:06:59 AM »

I remember when they did that construction since I used to live in Ottawa.  It was a nightmare to drive when there was a hockey game at the nearby stadium.

The MTO wants to widen the 417 to Renfrew first. Hopefully that will be done in the next few years.

cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #376 on: June 16, 2015, 01:50:12 PM »

Port this over from the Hwy 17 tangent in the 401 thread...

Have there been any bypass-type concepts for the Soo?  Would there be any interchanges on a bypass of the Soo or would it be at-grade completely?

To the first question, conceptually yes, but nothing firm. It was a few years ago, but at that point the next phase was to connect the existing 4 lane divided Garden River Bypass into Second Line (the existing E-W alignment along the north side of the city), but that's been put on the back burner for the next decade or so.

In terms of intersection treatments and/or grade separations, that's a decision that it's way to premature to address at this point.
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maplestar

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #377 on: June 16, 2015, 06:20:42 PM »

Looking nice all 'round, even Scotiabank Place (don't ever ask me to call it Canadian Tire Centre - all I remember hearing it called back when I went to uni was either Scotiabank Place or the Corel Centre).  The 417 needed that widening, in any case - now if it could just be expanded past Arnprior.

Really? I can see some justification for wanting to still call it The Palladium, but why insist on one of two former sponsored names over the current sponsored name?

Edited to add: I grew up in Arnprior and lived in the area until about 7 or 8 years ago, hence my interest.
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SignGeek101

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #378 on: June 16, 2015, 06:44:18 PM »

Looking nice all 'round, even Scotiabank Place (don't ever ask me to call it Canadian Tire Centre - all I remember hearing it called back when I went to uni was either Scotiabank Place or the Corel Centre).  The 417 needed that widening, in any case - now if it could just be expanded past Arnprior.

Really? I can see some justification for wanting to still call it The Palladium, but why insist on one of two former sponsored names over the current sponsored name?

The newer name (Canadian Tire Centre) was not well liked for people who lived there. I remember when they changed it, and I didn't really appreciate it then either. There's nothing wrong with it, it's just I guess the older names just "sound better".

dcbjms

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #379 on: June 17, 2015, 07:17:18 PM »

Looking nice all 'round, even Scotiabank Place (don't ever ask me to call it Canadian Tire Centre - all I remember hearing it called back when I went to uni was either Scotiabank Place or the Corel Centre).  The 417 needed that widening, in any case - now if it could just be expanded past Arnprior.

Really? I can see some justification for wanting to still call it The Palladium, but why insist on one of two former sponsored names over the current sponsored name?

Edited to add: I grew up in Arnprior and lived in the area until about 7 or 8 years ago, hence my interest.

Throughout my time at uni it was Scotiabank Place; earlier tourist literature and some people who took longer than usual to catch on used Corel Centre, so I heard and used both.  It's why I avoid calling the local big arena in RI the Dunkin' Donuts Center (or The Dunk -  :paranoid: - for short) and use the Civic Center instead - only in that case I grew up calling it the Civic Center and nothing is going to make me change that.
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cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #380 on: June 18, 2015, 09:47:08 AM »

The last site in the redevelopment of the Highway 400 and Highway 401 service centres has opened.

http://www.simcoe.com/news-story/5677801-hwy-400-commuters-welcome-new-innisfil-onroute/

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aboges26

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #381 on: June 18, 2015, 07:48:25 PM »

Port this over from the Hwy 17 tangent in the 401 thread...

Have there been any bypass-type concepts for the Soo?  Would there be any interchanges on a bypass of the Soo or would it be at-grade completely?

To the first question, conceptually yes, but nothing firm. It was a few years ago, but at that point the next phase was to connect the existing 4 lane divided Garden River Bypass into Second Line (the existing E-W alignment along the north side of the city), but that's been put on the back burner for the next decade or so.

In terms of intersection treatments and/or grade separations, that's a decision that it's way to premature to address at this point.

Thank you for importing this over!  I had conveniently forgotten what the main topic of the other thread was in order to pick your brain...

I was surprised that the Garden River Bypass never ended up at Second Line, it seemed destined after how much Carmen's Way helped get from the International Bridge to Hwy 17 north.  Was it put on the back burner for financial reasons or did the businesses along Trunk Rd not want to be bypassed?  Also, what are the chances that Second Line would instead get extended east to Trunk?  Specifically extending Second Line due east then having it curve southeasterly to meet Trunk Rd near Fournier Rd so Hwy 17 can instead form a "T" with its current curve to Trunk and curve off northwesterly to meet 17 north before or after Fifth Line?

Lastly, why was the northern end of the Garden River Bypass even proposed?  To me, the sweeping arc back to Trunk is a waste and it would have made more sense to have shifted its materials and labor on a more direct alignment that would have reduced MTO's future maintenance responsibility by shifting more kilometers of Hwy 17 back to local jurisdictions while also shaving off Hwy 17's total distance.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 07:50:32 PM by aboges26 »
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cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #382 on: June 19, 2015, 10:38:22 AM »


Thank you for importing this over!  I had conveniently forgotten what the main topic of the other thread was in order to pick your brain...

I was surprised that the Garden River Bypass never ended up at Second Line, it seemed destined after how much Carmen's Way helped get from the International Bridge to Hwy 17 north.  Was it put on the back burner for financial reasons or did the businesses along Trunk Rd not want to be bypassed? 

To route it further to the west than it is now would require crossing an additional First Nations territory. Which is always possible, it just requires more negotiation and political sensitivity than a regular expropriation. They opted not to do that back when the Garden River Bypass was built, and will resume negotiations once MTO gets a better sense of when the project will actually move forward.

Also, what are the chances that Second Line would instead get extended east to Trunk?  Specifically extending Second Line due east then having it curve southeasterly to meet Trunk Rd near Fournier Rd so Hwy 17 can instead form a "T" with its current curve to Trunk and curve off northwesterly to meet 17 north before or after Fifth Line?

Lastly, why was the northern end of the Garden River Bypass even proposed?  To me, the sweeping arc back to Trunk is a waste and it would have made more sense to have shifted its materials and labor on a more direct alignment that would have reduced MTO's future maintenance responsibility by shifting more kilometers of Hwy 17 back to local jurisdictions while also shaving off Hwy 17's total distance.

The ultimate alignment would have to balance between providing access to Sault Ste. Marie and the international bridge, as well as providing a through routing. So that access would not be well-served by a route that sweeps too far out away from the city.

While I do not know the precise alignment that has been envisioned, from a practical perspective the ideal staging would be thus:
  • Construct the next phase of the bypass between the Second Line/Black Road intersection and the existing Garden River Bypass. This will provide more direct access to the bulk of the city of SSM, as well as a clear route to the international bridge. The N-S portion of the existing alignment would then become the main access to the highway from much of the southern part of the city, particularly the triangle between Trunk Rd and the river.
  • Construct the N-S portion of the bypass, beginning just to the east of the Second Line/Black Road intersection, running northerly to the north end of town. The small section between the new N-S bypass and that intersection would then become the main connector to rest of SSM as well as the route to the bridge. The N-S alignment is the less critical of the two stages, so it would make sense to stage like this.

So ultimately, the small connectors that would not tie into the Hwy 17 mainline when all is said and done will still provide strategic access. I would imagine that the N-S connector that would be taken out of the existing Garden River Bypass alignment would be a candidate for transfer to the municipality, though even if MTO were stuck with it for a while they would only have a few km of road. The E-W connector would be worth keeping given its access to the international bridge, so it would be necessary otherwise.

I would not expect to see the N-S bypass constructed anytime soon. While there are a number of small towns with services along its route, there really isn't a centre of note until you reach Thunder Bay, over 700 km away. Most traffic does make a stop in the Soo before continuing northwesterly along the Lake Superior shore (and the inverse, first stop after a long run of nearly nothing). But in terms of the route, they do want to plan for an protect the corridor, but that so that they can build it more easily decades down the road.
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AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #383 on: June 20, 2015, 09:35:04 AM »

A couple of new photos of various construction projects on the 401 in the GTA:

Construction is still ongoing at the Mavis Road overpass.  It doesn't seem like a lot of work has been done this construction season to be honest:


A couple of views of the 401 through the future Hwy 412 interchange.  Paving work is ongoing for the future eastbound lanes of the 401:




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SignGeek101

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #384 on: June 20, 2015, 09:27:40 PM »

A couple of new photos of various construction projects on the 401 in the GTA:

It doesn't seem like a lot of work has been done this construction season to be honest:

[snipped]

Beginning of the construction season I guess. Or do they work over the winter? Either way, the Second Line West bridge (I presume where you took this pic) is still there, not demolished yet.

A couple of views of the 401 through the future Hwy 412 interchange.  Paving work is ongoing for the future eastbound lanes of the 401:

[pics]

Wait, the MTO is moving the eastbound lanes as well? I'm confused. Last year, they moved the westbound lanes further north to its present position, but now they want to move the eastbound lanes north as well? Or are they making collectors? Maybe they need some space to put the on-ramps to the 412 together.

AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #385 on: June 27, 2015, 02:52:47 PM »

A couple of photos of Highway 427 in northern Etobicoke.  The MTO is currently constructing HOV lanes along this portion of freeway:





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aridawn

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #386 on: July 13, 2015, 10:46:38 AM »

A couple of photos of Highway 427 in northern Etobicoke.  The MTO is currently constructing HOV lanes along this portion of freeway:







I don't get why this is a priority when it is only going to end at 401, and not add two GP lanes instead.  The hwy clearly need to be extended to at least Angus if not Barrie as was laid out in early 2000's.
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SignGeek101

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #387 on: July 13, 2015, 12:21:36 PM »

A couple of photos of Highway 427 in northern Etobicoke.  The MTO is currently constructing HOV lanes along this portion of freeway:







I don't get why this is a priority when it is only going to end at 401, and not add two GP lanes instead.  The hwy clearly need to be extended to at least Angus if not Barrie as was laid out in early 2000's.

I didn't look, but perhaps AADT's for that area are high enough that the MTO decided to widen the highway here first, rather than extend the freeway north. There's not much up there right now, so I guess they decided to wait. Just a guess on my part.

AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #388 on: July 18, 2015, 09:02:54 PM »

^ The 427 is a busy road all the way to Hwy 7.  HOV or not, it very much makes sense to widen the 427 before the freeway is extended further to the north.  Otherwise, traffic coming from the north along the future extension will simply be able to get to the traffic jam south of finch faster than they could without the freeway extension.
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SignGeek101

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #390 on: July 18, 2015, 11:04:28 PM »

Some additional sign replacement photos:


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_401_images/401_dv_347-5_east_C_Sep13_24x16.jpg


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_401_images/401_dv_347-5_east_C_Jul15_24x16.jpg

Well, at least the exit number is now posted at Renforth Drive. I like the single pole gantry design. Glad Ontario likes it too.

AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #391 on: July 19, 2015, 08:41:10 AM »

I don't mind the single post gantry either, but I think the 407 uses a better design than the MTO does.  I quite like the signs that were installed at this location.  I appreciate the fact that the sign designer took the time to match the sign heights of all of the signs at both the Renforth exit and the diverge to the 427 ramp.  Though, I think the 427 signs probably should have been switched to blue in colour.  (Once a ramp splits from the collector lanes, either blue or green is used, it's not always consistent.)
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SignGeek101

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #392 on: July 19, 2015, 11:59:31 AM »

After checking your website and Streetview, there doesn't appear to many of those classic gantries left for the entire length of the 401 in Toronto. The MTO has aggressively replaced them it looks like, probably for safety or aesthetics.

AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #393 on: July 19, 2015, 12:59:23 PM »

There are only about 5 or 6 of the old style gantries along the 401 across the length of the province.  There are still a few on both the 407 and the 410.  The ones on the 410 will be replaced in the next few years as part of a highway widening project.  The old gantries along the 407 probably still have some shelf life though, at least on the sections of the tollway that aren't going to be widened for the next few years.

During inspections, many of the old gantries (called 'Type 1' or 'Aluminum Tapered Leg' gantries) showed some fatigue cracking in some of the welds of the truss which were revealed to be problematic.  As I understand it, this was one of the principal reasons for their replacement.  The report on their replacement also mentioned that some of the weld qualities weren't always that great either.  The other problem with this design (which is shared with the 'Type 2' / 'Aluminum Rectangular Leg' gantries) is that the gantries are rigid, which over time can lead to fatigue cracking caused by regular expansion and contraction of the aluminum during temperature changes.

I've been told though, that while the Type 3 gantries alleviate the problems associated with both the Type 1 and 2 gantries, designing the bracketing assembly that affixes the sign panel to the truss is a lot more difficult on the type 3 gantries than it was on the older designs.
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haljackey

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #394 on: July 20, 2015, 11:18:15 PM »

Pan-Am games HOV Lanes in Toronto area

Pretty cool, should they become permanent? (maybe 2+ after the games?)


Via http://www.blogto.com/sports_play/2015/07/watch_the_hov_time-lapse_video_someone_just_created/
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cl94

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #395 on: July 21, 2015, 12:59:12 PM »

^ NO. I was on the DVP and Gardiner pretty early in the morning on a Sunday a couple weekends ago. LOS D-E in the general-purpose lanes while the HOV lanes saw only a few cars. Maybe they're more beneficial during the week, but they're useless on weekends just by the nature of travel.
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jakeroot

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #396 on: July 21, 2015, 01:04:06 PM »

^ NO. I was on the DVP and Gardiner pretty early in the morning on a Sunday a couple weekends ago. LOS D-E in the general-purpose lanes while the HOV lanes saw only a few cars. Maybe they're more beneficial during the week...

I think having a single stretch of HOV works poorly, but a large system works very well. I can't imagine getting around Seattle without HOV.

...but, they're useless on weekends just by the nature of travel.

I always thought the weekend was when the family all went out together, in groups larger than 1?
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SignGeek101

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #397 on: July 21, 2015, 01:21:09 PM »

Pan-Am games HOV Lanes in Toronto area

Pretty cool, should they become permanent? (maybe 2+ after the games?)

(video)

Via http://www.blogto.com/sports_play/2015/07/watch_the_hov_time-lapse_video_someone_just_created/

Yes... if you know what I mean  :spin:  :evilgrin:


I think having a single stretch of HOV works poorly, but a large system works very well. I can't imagine getting around Seattle without HOV.

...but, they're useless on weekends just by the nature of travel.

I always thought the weekend was when the family all went out together, in groups larger than 1?

That's what I thought too.

cl94

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #398 on: July 21, 2015, 02:54:07 PM »

I meant that they're set up for long-distance travel. If you're only on for a few exits, as many people going shopping and such are, there's no reason to get over to the HOV lane because you're getting off as soon as you get over. And with them being 3+ instead of the usual 2+, you need a full car to qualify (unless, of course, you use a dummy).
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cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #399 on: July 21, 2015, 04:15:50 PM »

Pan-Am games HOV Lanes in Toronto area

Pretty cool, should they become permanent? (maybe 2+ after the games?)


No.

As I said earlier in this thread...


1. The purpose of the temporary HOV is to provide access for games officials and participants, VIPs, etc as well as the 3+ HOV. It's a case where the needs of the games were determined to be of greater importance than the need to move traffic.

It's just hard to believe that a highway this wide can't dedicate one lane to carpoolers and transit without the need to widen the highway even further.

2. Well, believe it, because that road is incredibly busy. Just looking at the hourly volumes for the location in that picture, if one lane were converted the road would likely be overloaded for all but the hours of 9:00 pm to 6:00 am every weeknight. Weekends would get more time in the morning, but busier later into the evening. Further west it gets even worse.

There are many effective ways to manage traffic demand, but converting existing GPL to HOV is like trying to lose weight by hacking off a limb.


Now we are seeing better performance than one would expect with the lane conversion, but that has more to do with people changing their habits for a special event than a practical solution. Yes, there is certainly a reduction in induced demand, but by converting to 2+ HOV (let alone 3+) essentially you're cutting capacity by 80% of a full lane on roads that are already overloaded. It's not sustainable, practical, or useful.

The HOV lanes are there to clear a path for the games. Not to provide any benefit to the people trying to live their everyday lives.
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