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Author Topic: Ontario's Highways  (Read 402945 times)

MisterSG1

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #475 on: December 15, 2015, 04:11:28 PM »

Yes, mr know it all, cl94, there is one basic thing you need to understand, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because Virginia is getting away with highway robbery doesn't mean we should do it either. Then again, you in Buffalo aren't plagued by any traffic issues, well any that are problematic to say the least.

Funny how you call Highway 407 an urban route.....haha are you serious. The 407 East is mostly in the middle of nowhere, and if you want a comparable toll road to Highway 407, think the Illinois Tollway where the average rate is about 6 cents per mile. Now why don't you compare that to the over the top prices that government is charging. But as I said, they need to keep the sunshine list sustainable somehow.

The 407 wiseguy was originally designed to be a bypass of the 401, it was only in Bob Rae's government when that long anticipated route became a toll road, and then Mike Harris's government infamously leased it. Perhaps you should brush up on your history of the portion of the 407 in Halton Region (Oakville/Burlington), that wasn't supposed to be the 407 or a toll road there at all. That was supposed to be Hwy 403.

To correct the wrongs, the 407 east extension shouldn't have been tolled at all, Durham essentially has a beltway once the 418 is complete, but three sides of that beltway will have ridiculous toll rates.

What is going on in Virginia to me would be akin to having a special car on a subway train in which people pay three times the regular fare, get special access to this car (no lines at all), and can transfer between lines just as easily, a few weeks ago I took the subway and had to wait for 5 trains to pass before I could make the Bloor-Yonge transfer. With how much infrastructure and space required to set up such a system, everyone would benefit if they just extended the platforms by 2 car lengths at each station. (sounds expensive but would probably be cheaper than implementing my hypothetical two tier system) If the platforms are expanded everyone benefits, not just people who can pay the high costs of expensive fares easily.

What the government needs to learn is that people want to live in suburbia, I would NEVER want to raise a family in a tiny glass box in the sky in downtown Toronto.
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cl94

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #476 on: December 15, 2015, 05:34:17 PM »

Yes, mr know it all, cl94, there is one basic thing you need to understand, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because Virginia is getting away with highway robbery doesn't mean we should do it either. Then again, you in Buffalo aren't plagued by any traffic issues, well any that are problematic to say the least.

Funny how you call Highway 407 an urban route.....haha are you serious. The 407 East is mostly in the middle of nowhere, and if you want a comparable toll road to Highway 407, think the Illinois Tollway where the average rate is about 6 cents per mile. Now why don't you compare that to the over the top prices that government is charging. But as I said, they need to keep the sunshine list sustainable somehow.

The 407 wiseguy was originally designed to be a bypass of the 401, it was only in Bob Rae's government when that long anticipated route became a toll road, and then Mike Harris's government infamously leased it. Perhaps you should brush up on your history of the portion of the 407 in Halton Region (Oakville/Burlington), that wasn't supposed to be the 407 or a toll road there at all. That was supposed to be Hwy 403.

To correct the wrongs, the 407 east extension shouldn't have been tolled at all, Durham essentially has a beltway once the 418 is complete, but three sides of that beltway will have ridiculous toll rates.

What is going on in Virginia to me would be akin to having a special car on a subway train in which people pay three times the regular fare, get special access to this car (no lines at all), and can transfer between lines just as easily, a few weeks ago I took the subway and had to wait for 5 trains to pass before I could make the Bloor-Yonge transfer. With how much infrastructure and space required to set up such a system, everyone would benefit if they just extended the platforms by 2 car lengths at each station. (sounds expensive but would probably be cheaper than implementing my hypothetical two tier system) If the platforms are expanded everyone benefits, not just people who can pay the high costs of expensive fares easily.

What the government needs to learn is that people want to live in suburbia, I would NEVER want to raise a family in a tiny glass box in the sky in downtown Toronto.

Um, excuse me. I never said that it was always intended to be a toll road. I said 1990s and I have done my research. The main section is dense suburban. What it has since become is a less-congested alternative to 401.

The Illinois Tollway has been paid off for quite some time. 407 isn't all that old. And the high rates aren't unique to Virginia, either. The Port Authority has insanely high rates for the Hudson River crossings during rush hours. Peak-hour pricing is not unique and neither are high tolls. Heck, if you want high toll rates, look at the Pennsylvania Turnpike. That's currently $45 to go across the state and it's increasing to $50 next year. Give it a few years and it'll have a higher per-mile cost than 407.


edited for language
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 11:20:40 PM by US71 »
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jakeroot

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #477 on: December 15, 2015, 06:05:50 PM »

What is going on in Virginia to me would be akin to having a special car on a subway train in which people pay three times the regular fare, get special access to this car (no lines at all), and can transfer between lines just as easily, a few weeks ago I took the subway and had to wait for 5 trains to pass before I could make the Bloor-Yonge transfer. With how much infrastructure and space required to set up such a system, everyone would benefit if they just extended the platforms by 2 car lengths at each station. (sounds expensive but would probably be cheaper than implementing my hypothetical two tier system) If the platforms are expanded everyone benefits, not just people who can pay the high costs of expensive fares easily.

Yeah, but that implies you can keep expanding the system. A lot of times, *express* tolls are implemented because there's just no more room to (reasonably) expand a freeway, and they have to start squeezing traffic out and into public transit and/or carpools. This is what Seattle is doing with their ETL: carpools (3+), vanpools, transit, etc are free. Single drivers either suffer in the GP lanes or pay a fee. AFAIC, not all will win in every scenario. The people who are hating on the tolls strongly believe that the DOT (or transport ministry) can create some system where everyone wins. Unfortunately, that scenario isn't always possible.
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AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #478 on: December 26, 2015, 09:16:07 PM »

Some new photos of the 412 approaching the 407 interchange in Durham Region:

Pre-advanced signage for both the Hwy 7 and 407 interchanges:

http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/412_dv_7-5_north_c_Dec15_lg.jpg
http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/412_dv_7-5_north_c_Dec15_24x16.jpg

Advanced signage for the Hwy 7 interchange:

http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/412_dv_8-5_north_Dec15_lg.jpg
http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/412_dv_8-5_north_Dec15_24x16.jpg

Turn-off signage for the Hwy 7 interchange with an advanced sign for the Hwy 407 interchange.  The 412 ends at the Hwy 407 interchange.

http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/412_dv_9_north_Dec15_lg.jpg
http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/412_dv_9_north_Dec15_24x16.jpg

Signage at the end of the 412:

http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/412_dv_10_north_Dec15_lg.jpg
http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/412_dv_10_north_Dec15_24x16.jpg

View of the three level interchange between the 412 and the 407:

http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/412_structure_10_nw-three-level_Dec15_lg.jpg
http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_410-427_images/412_structure_10_nw-three-level_Dec15_24x16.jpg

View looking westerly along the 407 from the 412 off-ramp:

http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_407-409_images/407E/2015/12-Dec/407_cl_112_west_WB-offramp_Dec15_lg.jpg
http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_407-409_images/407E/2015/12-Dec/407_cl_112_west_WB-offramp_Dec15_24x16.jpg

Easterly view along the 407 from the 412 off-ramp:

http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_407-409_images/407E/2015/12-Dec/407_cl_112_east_WB-offramp_Dec15_lg.jpg
http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_407-409_images/407E/2015/12-Dec/407_cl_112_east_WB-offramp_Dec15_24x16.jpg
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #479 on: January 10, 2016, 07:19:58 PM »

Bad news for the Nipigon River Bridge (and the 11/17 twinning):

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/nipigon-river-bridge-closed-transcanada-1.3397831

JREwing78

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cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #481 on: January 11, 2016, 09:41:18 AM »

The bridge at Nipigon has been reopened.
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Alps

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #482 on: January 11, 2016, 09:38:43 PM »

Stephane Dumas

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #483 on: February 02, 2016, 06:56:12 PM »

There's some new photos of Hwy-407 and Hwy-412 posted on Skyscraperpage forum at http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=7320117&postcount=4731
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dcbjms

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #485 on: February 07, 2016, 12:44:14 PM »

That 407 sign is new.  Has the white text on blue background been authorized for route markers like that?
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AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #486 on: February 07, 2016, 08:05:50 PM »

I'm not sure I understand he question.  Who would need to authorize it?
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jakeroot

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #487 on: February 07, 2016, 08:16:17 PM »

I'm not sure I understand he question.  Who would need to authorize it?

Did the ETR Commision receive permission to use white-on-blue route markers from the MTO? Granted, I live nowhere near Ontario, but I can't recall seeing that type of marker before.
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AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #488 on: February 07, 2016, 08:22:20 PM »

The route marker decision was made by the MTO.  The MTO has retained a private partner to build and operate the highway, but decisions such as signage and design were the provincial governments to make.

** edit **
The extension of the 407 won't be signed with the same route number as the ETR.  Both highways will beare the same number, but only the new extension will be signed with the above route number.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 08:53:08 PM by AsphaltPlanet »
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SignGeek101

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #489 on: February 07, 2016, 09:25:37 PM »

I'm not sure I understand he question.  Who would need to authorize it?

Did the ETR Commision receive permission to use white-on-blue route markers from the MTO? Granted, I live nowhere near Ontario, but I can't recall seeing that type of marker before.

The 407 ETR and the new 407 should be looked at as different highways, sharing the same number. They have different shields (the ETR is a circular shield on a BGS, the new one is a standard ON shield), and the new 407 is looked after by the province.

I like the new shield though. The toll tab looks clean, and the directional tab uses FHWA, something Ontario doesn't do for standard tabs.

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #490 on: February 07, 2016, 10:39:58 PM »

I'm not sure I understand he question.  Who would need to authorize it?

Did the ETR Commision receive permission to use white-on-blue route markers from the MTO? Granted, I live nowhere near Ontario, but I can't recall seeing that type of marker before.

The 407 ETR and the new 407 should be looked at as different highways, sharing the same number. They have different shields (the ETR is a circular shield on a BGS, the new one is a standard ON shield), and the new 407 is looked after by the province.

I like the new shield though. The toll tab looks clean, and the directional tab uses FHWA, something Ontario doesn't do for standard tabs.

Oh okay I see. I hadn't been following this thread closely enough to to realize the difference. Whoops. At least the numbers are the same! Did the MTO ever officially introduce the new shield, or was it decided on in private?
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dcbjms

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #491 on: February 08, 2016, 10:07:22 AM »

I'm not sure I understand he question.  Who would need to authorize it?

Did the ETR Commision receive permission to use white-on-blue route markers from the MTO? Granted, I live nowhere near Ontario, but I can't recall seeing that type of marker before.

The 407 ETR and the new 407 should be looked at as different highways, sharing the same number. They have different shields (the ETR is a circular shield on a BGS, the new one is a standard ON shield), and the new 407 is looked after by the province.

I like the new shield though. The toll tab looks clean, and the directional tab uses FHWA, something Ontario doesn't do for standard tabs.

That makes sense - and I also like the shield, too.  That's going to be a pain for atlases and maps to sign, though.
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cl94

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #492 on: February 08, 2016, 10:21:33 AM »

I'm not sure I understand he question.  Who would need to authorize it?

Did the ETR Commision receive permission to use white-on-blue route markers from the MTO? Granted, I live nowhere near Ontario, but I can't recall seeing that type of marker before.

The 407 ETR and the new 407 should be looked at as different highways, sharing the same number. They have different shields (the ETR is a circular shield on a BGS, the new one is a standard ON shield), and the new 407 is looked after by the province.

I like the new shield though. The toll tab looks clean, and the directional tab uses FHWA, something Ontario doesn't do for standard tabs.

That makes sense - and I also like the shield, too.  That's going to be a pain for atlases and maps to sign, though.

Most widely-distributed things use the standard marker, as they often do in the US
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cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #493 on: February 08, 2016, 02:46:42 PM »


Oh okay I see. I hadn't been following this thread closely enough to to realize the difference. Whoops. At least the numbers are the same! Did the MTO ever officially introduce the new shield, or was it decided on in private?

Are you meaning was there public consultation? I don't believe so, it was just done to go with the standard of blue signage for toll routes.
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jakeroot

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #494 on: February 08, 2016, 02:56:50 PM »

Oh okay I see. I hadn't been following this thread closely enough to to realize the difference. Whoops. At least the numbers are the same! Did the MTO ever officially introduce the new shield, or was it decided on in private?

Are you meaning was there public consultation? I don't believe so, it was just done to go with the standard of blue signage for toll routes.

Err, sort of. Did the MTO ever have a press release of some sort? Some sort of letter from one engineer to another discussing the change? Usually there's some evidence online of a switch. All told, though, I think the blue shield is brilliant.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #495 on: February 08, 2016, 03:39:21 PM »

Oh okay I see. I hadn't been following this thread closely enough to to realize the difference. Whoops. At least the numbers are the same! Did the MTO ever officially introduce the new shield, or was it decided on in private?

Are you meaning was there public consultation? I don't believe so, it was just done to go with the standard of blue signage for toll routes.

Err, sort of. Did the MTO ever have a press release of some sort? Some sort of letter from one engineer to another discussing the change? Usually there's some evidence online of a switch. All told, though, I think the blue shield is brilliant.

1. No press release. The determination of that was after the latest PIC
2. It obviously was discussed between the project team and MTO Head Office
3. No, there rarely if ever is that kind of evidence on a warning or guide sign. It's a standard sign with a small variation.

MTO does hundreds of Non-standard Uniform Signs like this every year. Aside from regulatory signs, where there actually are issues that would arise from them, it's a complete non-event.
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AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #496 on: March 03, 2016, 07:55:42 PM »

Somewhat of a re-announcement, but the provincial government will be implementing an electronically tolled HOT lane on the 427 from Pearson Airport northerly to Rutherford Road.  This will be the first electronically tolled HOT lane in Canada.  The HOT lane that is being implemented on the QEW/403 will debut with a permitting system.

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-moving-ahead-with-first-electronic-hot-lane-in-hwy-427-expansion-plan-1.2802240

Quote
The province is moving ahead with a plan to put Ontario’s first electronic high-occupancy toll lane on a planned extension of Highway 427.

Quote
The 15.5-kilometre stretch of dedicated HOT lanes with electronic tolling will operate in both directions on Highway 427, from south of Highway 409 to north of Rutherford Road. It is set to open in 2021.

Quote
Del Duca has said the province has plans for a network of electronic HOT lanes with pricing that is based on time of day and traffic flows.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #497 on: March 03, 2016, 11:09:17 PM »

Somewhat of a re-announcement, but the provincial government will be implementing an electronically tolled HOT lane on the 427 from Pearson Airport northerly to Rutherford Road.  This will be the first electronically tolled HOT lane in Canada.  The HOT lane that is being implemented on the QEW/403 will debut with a permitting system.

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-moving-ahead-with-first-electronic-hot-lane-in-hwy-427-expansion-plan-1.2802240

Quote
The province is moving ahead with a plan to put Ontario’s first electronic high-occupancy toll lane on a planned extension of Highway 427.

Quote
The 15.5-kilometre stretch of dedicated HOT lanes with electronic tolling will operate in both directions on Highway 427, from south of Highway 409 to north of Rutherford Road. It is set to open in 2021.

Quote
Del Duca has said the province has plans for a network of electronic HOT lanes with pricing that is based on time of day and traffic flows.
How is this going to operate? Will HOV users be required to get a tag and flip it to "free", or will they get a special toll bypass lane that is monitored by police? How else do you separate toll paying traffic from free traffic? A camera can't always pick up the number of passengers.

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #498 on: March 04, 2016, 07:52:31 AM »

To my knowledge those details haven't been publicized by the province yet.  I'm not sure that the province has even finalized those details yet.  From what I understand, when construction is completed on the southern portion of the 427 between the Airport and Steeles Avenue (south of the 407) in 2017, the new HOV lane will operate just as that, an HOV lane.  The current construction contract only includes provisions for the installation of electronic tolling components (conduits, etc), but doesn't actually include any of the tolling infrastructure itself.  These will be installed later as part of a separate contract.

Personally, I am hoping for interoperability between this facility and the 407.  I believe (Chris knows more than I on this matter), that the province still owns the rights to the 407 transponder, even though the 407 ETR delivers that service on behalf of the province, so it might not be impossible.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #499 on: March 07, 2016, 09:28:59 AM »

I have put together a page of photos of the project to build the 412 through western Durham Region.  This is the tolled highway that was formerly known as the West Durham Link, and will link Highway 401 to Highway 407 just east of Lake Ridge Road in Whitby.  The new highway is scheduled to open later this spring:



http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_407-409_images/407E/Hwy412_ConstructionImages.htm

-fixed URL.  -rmf67
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 08:46:06 PM by rickmastfan67 »
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