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Author Topic: Ontario's Highways  (Read 403629 times)

MisterSG1

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #575 on: July 19, 2016, 02:06:20 AM »

Looks like the former highways in the GTA were replaced by freeways. 2 was replaced by 401, 7 by 407, 11 by 400, 27 by 427 and 400, and 50 by nothing? Not sure what Highway 50 would have in terms of importance.

Not everything was simply replaced by freeways, these highways existed for their own purpose. If I recall Highway 50 was first designed to take you from what is now Nashville Road (which was a provincial highway) up to Bolton. This highway was then extended to meet Hwy 27 in Etobicoke and Highway 89 close to Alliston.

If you want to play this game, which freeway replaced Hwy 5, or how about Hwy 48? I don't see anything remotely close that replaces Hwy 25. Similarly Highway 24 is downloaded north of the 401, which freeway replaced that one?
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #576 on: July 20, 2016, 12:58:22 PM »

Not sure if this has been discussed here yet, but do you guys think having the 412, 418 and 35/115 is a bit overkill? How many ways do people need to get between the 401 and the 407? I would think the 412 and 35/115 would suffice.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #577 on: July 20, 2016, 01:10:12 PM »

Looks like the former highways in the GTA were replaced by freeways. 2 was replaced by 401, 7 by 407, 11 by 400, 27 by 427 and 400, and 50 by nothing? Not sure what Highway 50 would have in terms of importance.

Not everything was simply replaced by freeways, these highways existed for their own purpose. If I recall Highway 50 was first designed to take you from what is now Nashville Road (which was a provincial highway) up to Bolton. This highway was then extended to meet Hwy 27 in Etobicoke and Highway 89 close to Alliston.

If you want to play this game, which freeway replaced Hwy 5, or how about Hwy 48? I don't see anything remotely close that replaces Hwy 25. Similarly Highway 24 is downloaded north of the 401, which freeway replaced that one?
Was it the 1998 downloading that killed these highways that served an independent purpose from the freeways? Or were they just for local traffic and thus were downloaded?

I can get only two highways that were replaced by freeways. Highway 5 by Highway 403, and Highway 48 by Highway 404, up until Sutton. So it seems that they all served an independent purpose and were unfortunately killed due to the government being in debt.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #578 on: July 20, 2016, 05:33:31 PM »

Not sure if this has been discussed here yet, but do you guys think having the 412, 418 and 35/115 is a bit overkill? How many ways do people need to get between the 401 and the 407? I would think the 412 and 35/115 would suffice.

I agree 2 connectors are a little redundant, but it provides redundancy. One thing that Toronto area highways lack is redundancy.

Plus, since 35/115 goes a little northeast/southwest, you're actually backtracking longitudinally to get to the 401 or 407 with this route. This highway also isn't 100km/h and doesn't have the same design standards as 412 / 418.

So overall, I'm a fan of 2 new freeway connections. Only one is really needed, but I'll take 2!
-I just wish these connector freeways weren't tolled as well.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #579 on: July 20, 2016, 06:29:03 PM »

Not sure if this has been discussed here yet, but do you guys think having the 412, 418 and 35/115 is a bit overkill? How many ways do people need to get between the 401 and the 407? I would think the 412 and 35/115 would suffice.

I agree 2 connectors are a little redundant, but it provides redundancy. One thing that Toronto area highways lack is redundancy.

Plus, since 35/115 goes a little northeast/southwest, you're actually backtracking longitudinally to get to the 401 or 407 with this route. This highway also isn't 100km/h and doesn't have the same design standards as 412 / 418.

So overall, I'm a fan of 2 new freeway connections. Only one is really needed, but I'll take 2!
-I just wish these connector freeways weren't tolled as well.

That's true, so I guess without the 418, everyone would likely use the 412 instead of 35/115. I still wonder if the money spent on the 418 could be better used elsewhere, but it doesn't matter now anyways.

I just noticed on Google Maps, 35/115 is shown in orange as a freeway. I'm pretty sure this used to be shown in yellow as a regular highway. I guess Google has changed their standards for when to use orange? I think this is a good call; even though it's not a full freeway, it's still clearly better than an undivided highway.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 07:15:49 PM by 7/8 »
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MisterSG1

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #580 on: July 20, 2016, 07:14:04 PM »

Not sure if this has been discussed here yet, but do you guys think having the 412, 418 and 35/115 is a bit overkill? How many ways do people need to get between the 401 and the 407? I would think the 412 and 35/115 would suffice.

I agree 2 connectors are a little redundant, but it provides redundancy. One thing that Toronto area highways lack is redundancy.

Plus, since 35/115 goes a little northeast/southwest, you're actually backtracking longitudinally to get to the 401 or 407 with this route. This highway also isn't 100km/h and doesn't have the same design standards as 412 / 418.

So overall, I'm a fan of 2 new freeway connections. Only one is really needed, but I'll take 2!
-I just wish these connector freeways weren't tolled as well.

That's true, so I guess without the 418, everyone would likely use the 412 instead of 35/115. I still wonder if the money spent on the 418 could be better used elsewhere, but it doesn't matter now anyways.

I just noticed on Google Maps, 35/115 is shown in orange as a freeway. I' pretty sure this used to be shown in yellow as a regular highway. I guess Google has changed their standards for when to use orange? I think this is a good call; even though it's not a full freeway, it's still clearly better than an undivided highway.

Even if it's not a freeway, the road is free flowing, no traffic lights or stop signs. Like Hwy 11, this kind of road I believe is called a RIRO (Right-in right-out) Expressway. This kind of road is sometimes called a "Jersey Freeway".

NJ 17 is a similar road to 35/115 in Greater New York, albeit it is set in a heavy suburban area, I was on it once when the megabus I once took to NYC used NJ 17 from the Thruway to reach the Lincoln Tunnel. As for the megabus....never again! I don't care how cheap it is.


Perhaps Orange on google maps indicates some form of controlled access, (indeed a RIRO is not controlled access) as NS 104 between Antigonish and New Glasgow, which is a super 2 is shown as an orange route.

NL 75, if you guys ever have to chance to drive it, is an extremely poorly designed Super 2 that's not even fully controlled access, what's worse is that this road opened in the early 20-aughts. NL 75 should definitely not be orange on the map.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #581 on: July 20, 2016, 07:27:44 PM »

Not sure if this has been discussed here yet, but do you guys think having the 412, 418 and 35/115 is a bit overkill? How many ways do people need to get between the 401 and the 407? I would think the 412 and 35/115 would suffice.

I agree 2 connectors are a little redundant, but it provides redundancy. One thing that Toronto area highways lack is redundancy.

Plus, since 35/115 goes a little northeast/southwest, you're actually backtracking longitudinally to get to the 401 or 407 with this route. This highway also isn't 100km/h and doesn't have the same design standards as 412 / 418.

So overall, I'm a fan of 2 new freeway connections. Only one is really needed, but I'll take 2!
-I just wish these connector freeways weren't tolled as well.

That's true, so I guess without the 418, everyone would likely use the 412 instead of 35/115. I still wonder if the money spent on the 418 could be better used elsewhere, but it doesn't matter now anyways.

I just noticed on Google Maps, 35/115 is shown in orange as a freeway. I' pretty sure this used to be shown in yellow as a regular highway. I guess Google has changed their standards for when to use orange? I think this is a good call; even though it's not a full freeway, it's still clearly better than an undivided highway.

Even if it's not a freeway, the road is free flowing, no traffic lights or stop signs. Like Hwy 11, this kind of road I believe is called a RIRO (Right-in right-out) Expressway. This kind of road is sometimes called a "Jersey Freeway".

It's weird though that the RIRO sections of Hwy 11 between Barrie and Gravenhurst are in yellow instead of orange. I can't think of any practical difference between Hwy 11's RIRO sections and 35/115.

NJ 17 is a similar road to 35/115 in Greater New York, albeit it is set in a heavy suburban area, I was on it once when the megabus I once took to NYC used NJ 17 from the Thruway to reach the Lincoln Tunnel. As for the megabus....never again! I don't care how cheap it is.

I took NJ 38 between NJ 73 and US 30 in April and judging from GSV, it looks very similar to NJ 17. But NJ 38 is shown in yellow, while NJ 17 is orange! I'm starting to doubt there's any consistency with this...

I thought NJ 38 was a cool type of road you wouldn't see in Ontario. The speed limit was a good 50 mph (80 km/h), but you still have convenient accesses to businesses. It seemed to work okay. I also thought the cloverleafs on these "suburban arterials" were pretty cool  :)

Perhaps Orange on google maps indicates some form of controlled access, (indeed a RIRO is not controlled access) as NS 104 between Antigonish and New Glasgow, which is a super 2 is shown as an orange route.

NL 75, if you guys ever have to chance to drive it, is an extremely poorly designed Super 2 that's not even fully controlled access, what's worse is that this road opened in the early 20-aughts. NL 75 should definitely not be orange on the map.

I'm surprised NL 75 is orange, since there are at-grade intersections. How can that be orange, but not the RIRO sections of Hwy 11? :confused:
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #582 on: July 20, 2016, 07:29:31 PM »

I do have a question for those in Ontario or familiar with the highways. First of all, as someone from Indiana I can too attest to some of the madness with "downloading" highways as we have that going for us as well, it's just called decommissioning or something like that. So anyway, I was told by my father one time when he used to visit Canada that a friend there told him that the reason the 400-series highways begin with the number 4 was because they were 4-lane highways (at the time anyway.) Is there any truth to this or was 4 just a randomly selected number to begin the new freeway designations?
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MisterSG1

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #583 on: July 20, 2016, 07:49:51 PM »

I do have a question for those in Ontario or familiar with the highways. First of all, as someone from Indiana I can too attest to some of the madness with "downloading" highways as we have that going for us as well, it's just called decommissioning or something like that. So anyway, I was told by my father one time when he used to visit Canada that a friend there told him that the reason the 400-series highways begin with the number 4 was because they were 4-lane highways (at the time anyway.) Is there any truth to this or was 4 just a randomly selected number to begin the new freeway designations?

Firstly, only Ontario has 400 series highways. :D

The term "downloading" was a term I believe that was coined by the media which referred to passing the buck on maintenance on one issue to a lower level of government. I believe in the early 90s, the federal government did a fair amount of downloading of stuff they used to take care of to the provinces, this was done for much of the same reason why the Harris government in Ontario did downloading to the municipalities, to try to create a surplus. Similarly, the opposite, if the Gardiner were to become the part of the QEW (which will never happen) would be called "uploading".

I've heard that story about the 400 series highways as well, but I'm not sure if there's any truth to it.

I could be wrong about this, but the reason why the freeway segments of say 115, or 11 don't have 400 series numbers is because they are isolated from the rest of the network. Perhaps if 35/115 was a freeway for it's whole length then it may have a 400 series number as it wouldn't be isolated from the 401.

Hwy 417 until the late 90s was isolated from the 401, I understand that, but considering how it continues on as another freeway in Quebec was probably why it got a 400 series number and not simply signed as 17.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #584 on: July 20, 2016, 08:24:12 PM »

I just noticed on Google Maps, 35/115 is shown in orange as a freeway. I'm pretty sure this used to be shown in yellow as a regular highway. I guess Google has changed their standards for when to use orange? I think this is a good call; even though it's not a full freeway, it's still clearly better than an undivided highway.

Google marks roads in orange if they're expressway or freeway, meaning there can be some at-grade intersections. Most crossings on 35/115 are RIRO (like ON 11) and Google counts that as expressway. Here in Winnipeg, the road community chuckled when the western part of the Perimeter (MB 101) was marked orange not too long ago, and that has "RIRO" crossings (quotations because they are basically at-grades with the median blocked off and a one-way sign posted) and exit numbers.

I do have a question for those in Ontario or familiar with the highways. First of all, as someone from Indiana I can too attest to some of the madness with "downloading" highways as we have that going for us as well, it's just called decommissioning or something like that. So anyway, I was told by my father one time when he used to visit Canada that a friend there told him that the reason the 400-series highways begin with the number 4 was because they were 4-lane highways (at the time anyway.) Is there any truth to this or was 4 just a randomly selected number to begin the new freeway designations?

That could be a plausible explanation. There's this:  https://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=b74tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xpgFAAAAIBAJ&dq=mcqueston+highway&pg=3117,2124256&hl=en

Either way, Ontario, Quebec, and Nova Scotia all have their freeway systems (the 400 series, Autoroutes, and 100 series respectively).

Was it the 1998 downloading that killed these highways that served an independent purpose from the freeways? Or were they just for local traffic and thus were downloaded?

I can get only two highways that were replaced by freeways. Highway 5 by Highway 403, and Highway 48 by Highway 404, up until Sutton. So it seems that they all served an independent purpose and were unfortunately killed due to the government being in debt.

I believe most of the downloading (I'm not a fan of that term as well) was due to roads being more for local jurisdictions. I'm honestly not really aware of the history of it (and I was too young to remember it myself) so I can't really confirm for any other cases.

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #585 on: July 20, 2016, 08:45:20 PM »

I do have a question for those in Ontario or familiar with the highways. First of all, as someone from Indiana I can too attest to some of the madness with "downloading" highways as we have that going for us as well, it's just called decommissioning or something like that. So anyway, I was told by my father one time when he used to visit Canada that a friend there told him that the reason the 400-series highways begin with the number 4 was because they were 4-lane highways (at the time anyway.) Is there any truth to this or was 4 just a randomly selected number to begin the new freeway designations?

Firstly, only Ontario has 400 series highways. :D

British Columbia had its own between 1964 and 1973.
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MisterSG1

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #586 on: July 20, 2016, 08:50:24 PM »

I do have a question for those in Ontario or familiar with the highways. First of all, as someone from Indiana I can too attest to some of the madness with "downloading" highways as we have that going for us as well, it's just called decommissioning or something like that. So anyway, I was told by my father one time when he used to visit Canada that a friend there told him that the reason the 400-series highways begin with the number 4 was because they were 4-lane highways (at the time anyway.) Is there any truth to this or was 4 just a randomly selected number to begin the new freeway designations?

That could be a plausible explanation. There's this:  https://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=b74tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xpgFAAAAIBAJ&dq=mcqueston+highway&pg=3117,2124256&hl=en

Either way, Ontario, Quebec, and Nova Scotia all have their freeway systems (the 400 series, Autoroutes, and 100 series respectively).

To semi-quote the great late Jack Albertson who played the Grandpa Joe in Willy Wonka & The Chocolate Factory:

If Highway 105 is a freeway, then I'm a vermicious knid


The 100 series roads are definitely not all freeways, hell not even controlled access super 2s.
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cl94

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #587 on: July 20, 2016, 09:34:42 PM »

I do have a question for those in Ontario or familiar with the highways. First of all, as someone from Indiana I can too attest to some of the madness with "downloading" highways as we have that going for us as well, it's just called decommissioning or something like that. So anyway, I was told by my father one time when he used to visit Canada that a friend there told him that the reason the 400-series highways begin with the number 4 was because they were 4-lane highways (at the time anyway.) Is there any truth to this or was 4 just a randomly selected number to begin the new freeway designations?

That could be a plausible explanation. There's this:  https://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=b74tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xpgFAAAAIBAJ&dq=mcqueston+highway&pg=3117,2124256&hl=en

Either way, Ontario, Quebec, and Nova Scotia all have their freeway systems (the 400 series, Autoroutes, and 100 series respectively).

To semi-quote the great late Jack Albertson who played the Grandpa Joe in Willy Wonka & The Chocolate Factory:

If Highway 105 is a freeway, then I'm a vermicious knid


The 100 series roads are definitely not all freeways, hell not even controlled access super 2s.

Definitely agree. The 400 series was likely chosen because that number was well above the highest-numbered standard route (ironically, Highway 105 at the time 400 was designated).
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #588 on: July 20, 2016, 09:36:25 PM »

NJ 17 is a similar road to 35/115 in Greater New York, albeit it is set in a heavy suburban area, I was on it once when the megabus I once took to NYC used NJ 17 from the Thruway to reach the Lincoln Tunnel. As for the megabus....never again! I don't care how cheap it is.

I took NJ 38 between NJ 73 and US 30 in April and judging from GSV, it looks very similar to NJ 17. But NJ 38 is shown in yellow, while NJ 17 is orange! I'm starting to doubt there's any consistency with this...

I thought NJ 38 was a cool type of road you wouldn't see in Ontario. The speed limit was a good 50 mph (80 km/h), but you still have convenient accesses to businesses. It seemed to work okay. I also thought the cloverleafs on these "suburban arterials" were pretty cool  :)

Perhaps Orange on google maps indicates some form of controlled access, (indeed a RIRO is not controlled access) as NS 104 between Antigonish and New Glasgow, which is a super 2 is shown as an orange route.

NL 75, if you guys ever have to chance to drive it, is an extremely poorly designed Super 2 that's not even fully controlled access, what's worse is that this road opened in the early 20-aughts. NL 75 should definitely not be orange on the map.

I'm surprised NL 75 is orange, since there are at-grade intersections. How can that be orange, but not the RIRO sections of Hwy 11? :confused:

Orange should be reserved for freeways, but they make errors. NJ 17 has businesses and driveways, but no traffic lights. Maybe that's why it's orange.

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #589 on: July 20, 2016, 09:50:07 PM »

NJ 17 is a similar road to 35/115 in Greater New York, albeit it is set in a heavy suburban area, I was on it once when the megabus I once took to NYC used NJ 17 from the Thruway to reach the Lincoln Tunnel. As for the megabus....never again! I don't care how cheap it is.

I took NJ 38 between NJ 73 and US 30 in April and judging from GSV, it looks very similar to NJ 17. But NJ 38 is shown in yellow, while NJ 17 is orange! I'm starting to doubt there's any consistency with this...

I thought NJ 38 was a cool type of road you wouldn't see in Ontario. The speed limit was a good 50 mph (80 km/h), but you still have convenient accesses to businesses. It seemed to work okay. I also thought the cloverleafs on these "suburban arterials" were pretty cool  :)

Perhaps Orange on google maps indicates some form of controlled access, (indeed a RIRO is not controlled access) as NS 104 between Antigonish and New Glasgow, which is a super 2 is shown as an orange route.

NL 75, if you guys ever have to chance to drive it, is an extremely poorly designed Super 2 that's not even fully controlled access, what's worse is that this road opened in the early 20-aughts. NL 75 should definitely not be orange on the map.

I'm surprised NL 75 is orange, since there are at-grade intersections. How can that be orange, but not the RIRO sections of Hwy 11? :confused:

Orange should be reserved for freeways, but they make errors. NJ 17 has businesses and driveways, but no traffic lights. Maybe that's why it's orange.

The Taconic is orange north of the Sprain as well and that still has a bunch of cross streets in northern Dutchess and Columbia.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #590 on: July 21, 2016, 08:08:27 AM »

When 500,000 people live in the municipality of Clarington, I think Hwy 418 will make more sense.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 08:23:51 AM by AsphaltPlanet »
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #591 on: July 21, 2016, 10:19:12 AM »

When 500,000 people live in the municipality of Clarington, I think Hwy 418 will make more sense.

I agree. With the rate at which the GTA is growing, that won't take very long and everything will be appreciated.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #592 on: July 21, 2016, 01:16:58 PM »

When 500,000 people live in the municipality of Clarington, I think Hwy 418 will make more sense.

I agree. With the rate at which the GTA is growing, that won't take very long and everything will be appreciated.

Which makes me wonder, did MTO had made some provisions for possible northern extensions of Hwy-412 and Hwy-418 north of Hwy-407"&
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #593 on: July 21, 2016, 03:17:04 PM »

When 500,000 people live in the municipality of Clarington, I think Hwy 418 will make more sense.

Half a million in Clarington? Really, are you suggesting that Clarington has a population similar to Brampton?

Unless you meant to say half a million people live in Durham Region.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #594 on: July 21, 2016, 03:29:02 PM »

I tend not to be a particularly literal person, but yes, Clarington has a large supply of develop-able land, of which a lot of it will be more affordable than in a lot of other areas within the GTA, so I expect the population to increase by hundreds of thousands of people in the next 30-50 years.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #595 on: July 21, 2016, 04:21:20 PM »

I tend not to be a particularly literal person, but yes, Clarington has a large supply of develop-able land, of which a lot of it will be more affordable than in a lot of other areas within the GTA, so I expect the population to increase by hundreds of thousands of people in the next 30-50 years.

It's around 85,000 already, having increased by nearly 9% between 2006 and 2011. It's only going to get higher and it's mostly farmland still. I think 500,000 or higher is very realistic.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #596 on: July 21, 2016, 04:45:11 PM »

Sorry to drift off-topic here, but I found an interesting photo dating from when Canada's Wonderland opened. The map is bare-bones, but I tried.

From blogto.com


Link to the story (if you want to read it)
http://www.blogto.com/sports_play/2015/05/the_birth_of_canadas_wonderland_in_the_1980s/
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AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #597 on: July 21, 2016, 06:01:03 PM »

Which makes me wonder, did MTO had made some provisions for possible northern extensions of Hwy-412 and Hwy-418 north of Hwy-407"&

Neither highway has been designed with a northern extension in mind.  That said, if there was one day a desire to extend either highway northerly, there really isn't anything built that precludes that from happening either.
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AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #598 on: July 21, 2016, 08:31:20 PM »

I've uploaded some photos of the 407 extension that I have taken over the past few weeks since the highway opened:





























The entire set of images can be found on my website here:
http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_407-409_images/Hwy407_p5_images.htm
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noelbotevera

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #599 on: July 21, 2016, 09:14:10 PM »

About the distance signs, doesn't the GTA have a lot of visitors from the US? How come the distance signs aren't in miles? Also, the distances translate weirdly. 3.1 km is nearly two miles, but it's actually 1.92 miles. Shouldn't it be 3.2 or 3.3 km?
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