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Author Topic: Ontario's Highways  (Read 402753 times)

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #625 on: July 25, 2016, 12:30:38 PM »

I found this article from July 14th:
http://www.canadianmanufacturing.com/environment-and-safety/ontario-build-ev-charging-stations-along-major-highways-attractions-172033/

Quote
Ontario is building nearly 500 electric vehicle charging stations across the province with hopes they will encourage more residents to use electric vehicles.
The provincial government says the network of public stations will help address “range anxiety” among electric car drivers who may be concerned about the distance their vehicles can travel compared to traditional vehicles.

The full network of stations will allow electric vehicles to travel from Windsor, Ont., to Ottawa, or from Toronto to North Bay, Ont., as well as in and around major urban centres.

The stations—which will be placed at more than 250 locations including highways, workplaces and public spaces—are all expected to be in service by the end of March next year.
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cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #626 on: July 25, 2016, 03:18:27 PM »

Black Creek Drive (Highway 400 Extension)
I'm not exactly sure how the 400 looked south of the 401 prior to 1982 (when Black Creek Drive was opened) but I believe that the 400 had a forced exit at Jane Street.

Yes.

Black Creek Drive is an expressway with traffic lights, and yes it is that stupid.

Given the constraints there, it's not stupid at all.

Incidentally, the entire Black Creek Drive could be converted to freeway if they wanted to, but I wouldn't count on that happening ever.

Well, technically it could, but that would be really, really, unwise. It would be rather disruptive to the area, while at the same time funneling traffic onto an even more constrained Weston Road. That would be spending piles of money to create a bigger problem somewhere else.

I have on occasion taken Black Creek Drive NB in PM Rush while doing Uber, and those intersections on Black Creek Drive are particularly nasty in how traffic backs up on Black Creek Drive.

Given the volumes, they're pretty typical for an arterial. Not really noteworthy backups at them.

Highway 2A (Scarborough Expressway)
Highway 2A is indeed known as Kingston Road in this stretch. This was indeed supposed to be part of the cancelled Scarborough Expressway.

Highway 2A is known as Highway 2A in this stretch. Kingston Road is an arterial road that runs parallel to it.


The Toronto area has some of the worst commute times in North America, and since it is planned to continue growing, things will just get worse without massive expansions or new projects.

Luckily, the main issues with traffic congestion are in the suburban areas. DVP aside, traffic actually moves well in the 416.

The current provincial government seems to be very transit-focused to try and relieve this congestion. Some projects are underway, others are in the planning stages.
-Roadwise, there really isn't much going on within the developed area, and much of Toronto's growth is occurring within already developed areas.

That's because there is not much bang for your buck in expanding road capacity within the 416. As intensification occurs, as does the viability of transit.
Bear in mind, this current government is spending more on roadway capital than any we've had. For al of their many, many, many faults, highway investment is one area in which they've excelled.

I can only see a small handful of road projects being completed in a pipe dream. They are:
-Convert Black Creek Drive to a freeway. Extend it parallel to the rail line as a tolled/HOT only highway that cold be just 2-4 lanes wide. It would mimic a narrow Japanese expressway design.

I realize that it is admittedly a pipe dream, but the concern with that is a) that induces demand right into the already congested urban core b) 401-427-FGG is not a particularly bad route c) a roadway shoehorned in like that would be pretty crappy

-Build a freeway through the Gatineau Power corridor between the DVP and 401.

Demand-wise that would help, as I said, DVP is probably the stickiest spot in the 416. However, intensifying the DVP corridor (adding more lanes either beside or above the existing ones) would provide greater bang for your buck - and not get yet more residents up in arms.

-When it comes time to rehabilitate or replace the structures at 401/427, squeeze some room to allow a couple collector lanes to go through the interchange and reconfigure the stretch of 401 between 427 and 409 to link the systems together.

The time for that work is 2015-16, and that has not been done. That interchange is not so great for throughput EB, though the 409 does help relieve the pressure. As with the DVP, adding lanes above (probably HOT) would make a great deal sense.

-Build more auxiliary lanes between interchanges. Should help keep short distance traffic going only 1 exit down from messing with highway flow.

The issue with that is drainage - adding lanes like that will pretty well require a full rebuild of the collector lanes


One other idea that would help in some of the more outlying areas (400 and 404 especially) - ramp metering. Would really help with cutting down on the turbulence on those roads.

Another alternative is to direct the growth Toronto receives to other cities in the province. Ontario had a program in the past to help convince new immigrants to look at cities other than Toronto and small towns, but funding has been cut due to budgetary issues. Cities like Windsor, London, Kingston, Sudbury, etc outside of the Greater Golden Horseshoe are better suited to growth and some even require it to keep populations stable (cities like Chatham and Windsor are declining in population).

That would help considerably. But the economic power of the GTHA does pull very strongly, so it would be an uphill battle.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #627 on: July 25, 2016, 03:29:23 PM »

So if the Gardiner formerly extended to Leslie Street, would it have followed Kingston Road to connect with the Scarborough Expressway, or would it have followed the Lake Ontario shoreline to Highway 401? Because Lake Shore Boulevard east of the Don Valley Parkway looks like it was once a freeway, up to Woodbine Avenue.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #628 on: July 25, 2016, 04:38:51 PM »

You really shouldn't have done that cbeach, but not surprising, you in the government, Do as I say, not as I do. For starters, since you are a public servant, why don't you take transit like the so called masters want us to do, hey you've been brainwashed by them as soon as I seen the phrase "induced demand".

Funny how you want to badmouth the current administration but I'm willing to bet that you voted for that wicked witch.

So what kind of road projects have been done lately that have actually benefited the motorist, although some may have started before the 13 years of hell we have been under, let us see.

2004 - Introduction of HOV Lanes on Hwy 403 and 404 (yup that's right folks, there wasn't an HOV lane before the Liberals got in), as I am a HUGE opponent of HOV lanes, as they actually easily make traffic worse and due absolutely nothing to help truck traffic, it all fits into the green agenda that the fascist regime is obsessed with. I'll get to that later.

ALSO, there was money floating around to create an HOV only ramp from Hwy 404 SB to Hwy 401 WB....it's funny how I was laughed at by you sometime ago for suggesting that an EC Row WB to 401 EB ramp should have been built.

2007 - Extension of Hwy 410 to Mayfield, which in 2009 was further extended to Hwy 10, this project was approved in the Ernie Eves days and was delayed for many years after the Liberals got elected.....indeed the Sandalwood overpass was open to traffic a good 4 years before the 410 came to exist underneath it.

2010 - ALTERATION of long term widening plans introduces HOV lanes to the badly congested Halton Region stretch....need I say more, of course I know you will come out of the woodwork and defend this, just like you adamantly defend the downloaded highways, hey if that's a good decision, why don't you defend the privatization of Hwy 407

2014 - Highway 404 extension....in honesty an extension to nowhere and not a priority whatsoever, a few people have this nice extension to reach Georgina easier....anyone can see that the Highway 427 extension was WAY MORE IMPORTANT, I mean think about it, York Region got tired of the MTO playing games that they decided to create an extension to link to an arterial just so they could ease off the traffic movements at the Hwy 50/Hwy 7 intersection and Hwy 27/Hwy 7 intersection.

2016 - Highway 407 East and Highway 412....this was a good project, but like the original 407, it is a toll. Even worse, the MTO is basically charging the same prices that the 407 ETR charges.....of course they need to, as the public sector is growing while the private sector is shrinking in this province....more taxes have to come from somewhere, or shall I quote what Kathleen says "revenue tools" If you want me to talk about a shrinking private sector, do you want me to mention how extreme costs of doing business in this province caused Heinz to shut the century old plant in Leamington? There are countless of other examples that have closed down in Ontario in recent years.

Let's not mention the ongoing projects, any widening includes HOV lanes now, and don't get me started on the 401 widening in Mississauga, that just angers me to no end.


If you want to talk transit, if we use the cancellation of the Spadina Expressway as a starting point, how much real rapid transit has been built in the city? Yes, Mike Harris may have cancelled the Eglinton Line, but the current version of that said line is vastly inferior, it'd be like converting the DVP into a road like Black Creek Drive.

How much has the outlying region grown since the cancellation of Spadina, by at least 3 folds. This has happened mainly due to immigration and yet the feds always seem to jump away when we try to ask them for money for projects. Do you honestly think the City of Brampton back in 1974 wanted all these immigrants to dramatically change how the city functions? The feds are responsible for the massive growth so they are responsible for this transportation crisis we face.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #629 on: July 25, 2016, 08:37:34 PM »

heated discussion about provincial politics... heavily discouraged on this forum but oh well no admins patrol this board

I hate to say it (you'll probably yell at me for this too, but oh well), but Chris is probably right for most of his points.

The 404 was built to handle urban sprawl, and it's not that hard to see why. Look at the satellite over its length and it doesn't take much to identify that Newmarket and Richmond Hill will probably grow out over the next 10-20 years to make the 404 more usable. I agree it's not really needed right now, but part of making an effective transportation corridor is making the infrastructure in advance, not doing it when all the urban sprawl is already there.

About the 407, refer to my point above. Same thing. Regarding tolls, it would have been better if Ontario implemented tolls only on the connector routes (412, and the future 418).

The 427 really should have been extended earlier though, I'd have to agree with you there. I don't know the current alignment of the new road; it would be nice to know though  :)

As for Kingston Rd, confusing signing on the 401 can lead people to believe that 2A is Kingston Rd, when it really isn't.

I would be flabbergasted if any expressways were going to be built within Toronto. It's not going to happen at this stage. Everybody should accept that. The politics and the NIMBYism would never allow it.

Back on topic...

So if the Gardiner formerly extended to Leslie Street, would it have followed Kingston Road to connect with the Scarborough Expressway, or would it have followed the Lake Ontario shoreline to Highway 401? Because Lake Shore Boulevard east of the Don Valley Parkway looks like it was once a freeway, up to Woodbine Avenue.

There were several ideas proposed. Lake Shore Blvd is a wide arterial, it was never a freeway.

There is this:



It basically followed the CNR (Canadian National Railway)

cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #630 on: July 26, 2016, 10:57:40 AM »

You really shouldn't have done that cbeach, but not surprising, you in the government, Do as I say, not as I do. For starters, since you are a public servant, why don't you take transit like the so called masters want us to do, hey you've been brainwashed by them as soon as I seen the phrase "induced demand".

I take transit when it is convenient for me to do so. Which is admittedly rarely. But that's how it works.

I used the term "induced demand" as I know what I'm talking about when it comes to transportation planning. Broken down to its simplest form, it's supply and demand economics - the more a resource is available, the more people will use it. Limiting the supply of a product (in this case, road capacity) regulates its demand.

There certainly are numerous political viewpoints regarding what to do with induced demand (the anti-car brigade of course oppose it, people like me recognize it needs to be managed carefully), but as a function of traffic engineering it does happen.

Funny how you want to badmouth the current administration but I'm willing to bet that you voted for that wicked witch.

As a matter of fact, I did not vote for the Liberal candidate in my riding in the previous election. Not that it has anything to do with the topic at hand, nor is it relevant in any discussion.

So what kind of road projects have been done lately that have actually benefited the motorist, although some may have started before the 13 years of hell we have been under, let us see.

2004 - Introduction of HOV Lanes on Hwy 403 and 404 (yup that's right folks, there wasn't an HOV lane before the Liberals got in), as I am a HUGE opponent of HOV lanes, as they actually easily make traffic worse and due absolutely nothing to help truck traffic, it all fits into the green agenda that the fascist regime is obsessed with. I'll get to that later.

HOV lanes have issues (especially GPL to HOV conversion, which I strongly oppose), but the addition of new HOV lanes do result in a net increase in the highway's throughput. And while trucks can't use them they do benefit from the additional overall capacity. But that's why HOV are installed on commuter routes where the proportion of trucks is lower.
A GPL in a high truck percentage also has really crappy lane utilization.

HOV are a tool to use to manage limited resources - both financial and road capacity. It has its applicable uses, and there are places where it does not work. But commuter routes, those are by and large applicable uses.

And as far as the Liberals being responsible for HOV, well, that's the funny thing - HOV studies began in 1994. Under Bob Rae and the NDP. They continued unabated during the Harris-Eves Ontario PC years. In fact, the first contracts, like the Hwy 403 HOV and the Hwy 404 HOV and the tunnel connection to Hwy 401, were issued months before the 2003 election, while the Tories were in power. And construction has continued unabated through the McGuinty-Wynne years.

So, all three parties have supported it. The Tories and Liberals have actually built it. It is not solely a Liberal initiative at all.


ALSO, there was money floating around to create an HOV only ramp from Hwy 404 SB to Hwy 401 WB....it's funny how I was laughed at by you sometime ago for suggesting that an EC Row WB to 401 EB ramp should have been built.

No, I didn't laugh at you for that. I just said that the amount of traffic that would benefit would be minimal, as that movement is almost a U-turn. Based on signal timings at the ECR-Huron Church interchange, building that flyover would have saved maybe one minute for those few drivers at a cost of tens of millions of dollars.

The 404 HOV to 401 WB tunnel cost a fraction of that, and is used by thousands of vehicles per day. And given the congestion at that interchange, saves people a lot more time that a minute or two. Also, the funding situation for the Herb Grey Pkwy is far different than what existed for the 404 tunnel. Not a valid comparison, even taking the fact that they were about a decade apart.

And again, they were that far apart as the HOV project was done by the Tories (and that I admittedly AM laughing about).  :-D

2007 - Extension of Hwy 410 to Mayfield, which in 2009 was further extended to Hwy 10, this project was approved in the Ernie Eves days and was delayed for many years after the Liberals got elected.....indeed the Sandalwood overpass was open to traffic a good 4 years before the 410 came to exist underneath it.

Got delayed for many years? Phase 1 was completed 2004, the Phase 2 contract was issued in 2006. So delayed one year.

(edited - corrected the date)

2010 - ALTERATION of long term widening plans introduces HOV lanes to the badly congested Halton Region stretch....

No, HOV was planned for that all along. That project was initiated in 2002 - well into Ontario's work into HOV.

need I say more, of course I know you will come out of the woodwork and defend this, just like you adamantly defend the downloaded highways, hey if that's a good decision, why don't you defend the privatization of Hwy 407

I defend downloading because from a service delivery standpoint it makes sense. Taking former Highway 50 for example, in what way would it benefit residents, businesses, and other stakeholders along that highway to have the distant and high-level MTO taking care of their road? Especially since it does not serve long distance traffic? Or how does it benefit the province to waste time and money on those local issues, rather than the more local and accessible municipality? Just a drain on resources all around.

Yes, navigational issues could have been handled better. And overall funding could be improved. But it really serves both the province and the residents/businesses/etc. far, far better.


The 407 deal is utterly awful. But again, it, along with downloading and HOV lanes, are Tory initiatives.


2014 - Highway 404 extension....in honesty an extension to nowhere and not a priority whatsoever, a few people have this nice extension to reach Georgina easier....anyone can see that the Highway 427 extension was WAY MORE IMPORTANT, I mean think about it, York Region got tired of the MTO playing games that they decided to create an extension to link to an arterial just so they could ease off the traffic movements at the Hwy 50/Hwy 7 intersection and Hwy 27/Hwy 7 intersection.

Yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about. The 404 extension was definitely needed. And it's never a question of one vs another, it's never that simplistic.
And York built that so they could increase development.

2016 - Highway 407 East and Highway 412....this was a good project, but like the original 407, it is a toll. Even worse, the MTO is basically charging the same prices that the 407 ETR charges.....of course they need to, as the public sector is growing while the private sector is shrinking in this province....more taxes have to come from somewhere, or shall I quote what Kathleen says "revenue tools" If you want me to talk about a shrinking private sector, do you want me to mention how extreme costs of doing business in this province caused Heinz to shut the century old plant in Leamington? There are countless of other examples that have closed down in Ontario in recent years.

That rambling rant being what it is there, it's funny you mentioned Leamington, as you forgot the Highway 3 widening in that area done since the Liberals entered office.
Again, they have not done well on a lot of things (especially energy). But as I originally said, transportation is one area (maybe even the only area) where they've done exceptionally well.

Let's not mention the ongoing projects, any widening includes HOV lanes now, and don't get me started on the 401 widening in Mississauga, that just angers me to no end.

Widening through the interchange that causes the biggest backup on Hwy 401 west of Toronto? Yeah, that sucks.   :crazy:

And yes, any widening includes HOV. As it has been since well before the current party took power. That project was initiated in 2001. Well into the HOV era.

If you want to talk transit,

Nope.

How much has the outlying region grown since the cancellation of Spadina, by at least 3 folds. This has happened mainly due to immigration and yet the feds always seem to jump away when we try to ask them for money for projects. Do you honestly think the City of Brampton back in 1974 wanted all these immigrants to dramatically change how the city functions? The feds are responsible for the massive growth so they are responsible for this transportation crisis we face.

Immagants! I knew it was them! Even when it was the bears I knew it was them!   :)



For comparison's sake, in 2002, the last full year of Conservative's mandate, in the GTA MTO had 31 capital construction jobs. In 2015, the last complete year under the Liberals, they had 53. That's just standard delivery, not the alternative delivery models like 407, Herb Grey Pkwy, etc. And the economic picture of the province was far rosier in 2002 than 2015.

And further comparison, the last full year under NDP (1994) had 34 contracts issued in the GTA. The Liberals clearly have made highway funding a priority. They've sucked at a lot of areas, but transportation is not one.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 01:01:09 AM by cbeach40 »
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Stephane Dumas

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #631 on: July 28, 2016, 11:55:58 AM »


And further comparison, the last full year under NDP (1994) had 34 contracts issued in the GTA. The Liberals clearly have made highway funding a priority. They've sucked at a lot of areas, but transportation is not one.

However, the Ottawa Valley between Pembrooke and Arnprior still wait for a upgrade of TCH-17 into TCH-417 althought some work at finally started west of Arnprior.

There's also on and off-talks of link between A-5 and TCH-417 and more recently came the idea of a tunnel in the Sandy Hill area of Ottawa.
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=7513831&postcount=193
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/city-hall-blog-king-edward-truck-tunnel-study-coming-in-august

And some residents in Cumberland don't want Hwy-174 (former TCH-17) being upgraded. http://www.ottawacommunitynews.com/news-story/6765411-residents-file-appeal-over-174-widening-through-cumberland/
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #632 on: July 28, 2016, 01:24:16 PM »

There's also on and off-talks of link between A-5 and TCH-417 and more recently came the idea of a tunnel in the Sandy Hill area of Ottawa.
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=7513831&postcount=193
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/city-hall-blog-king-edward-truck-tunnel-study-coming-in-august

It is unusual that there isn't any freeway-freeway connection between the Ottawa and Gatineau areas. The bridges seemed to get busy when I was there in January.

That truck tunnel seems pretty cool, I'm looking forward to reading what the study says.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #633 on: July 28, 2016, 02:07:09 PM »

The area between A-5 and ON 417 has always struck me as a definite gap in Canada's freeway system.  Too bad it looks like the tunnel to fill that gap will be truck-only.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #634 on: July 28, 2016, 02:18:46 PM »

^ One of the City's Councilor's leaked some details about the tunnel in the spring.  From what was leaked, it would be a four lane tunnel and open to cars as well.  It will probably be tolled.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/05/30/king-edward-truck-tunnel-study-release-delayed-until-september
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #635 on: July 28, 2016, 04:49:37 PM »

^ One of the City's Councilor's leaked some details about the tunnel in the spring.  From what was leaked, it would be a four lane tunnel and open to cars as well.  It will probably be tolled.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/05/30/king-edward-truck-tunnel-study-release-delayed-until-september

Better tolled than not built it all. That's the best option now to get it built.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #636 on: July 28, 2016, 09:49:06 PM »

The area between A-5 and ON 417 has always struck me as a definite gap in Canada's freeway system.  Too bad it looks like the tunnel to fill that gap will be truck-only.

The gap in A-20 west of Montreal is much worse IMO.

^ One of the City's Councilor's leaked some details about the tunnel in the spring.  From what was leaked, it would be a four lane tunnel and open to cars as well.  It will probably be tolled.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/05/30/king-edward-truck-tunnel-study-release-delayed-until-september

Better tolled than not built it all. That's the best option now to get it built.

First I've heard about this. I would toll the tunnel at a moderate rate until the project is paid off. The Coquihalla in BC (it was tolled until 2011) is a good example of how to do it.

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #637 on: July 29, 2016, 05:13:03 PM »

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #638 on: July 30, 2016, 10:45:03 AM »

I've continued this conversation in the Quebec's Highways thread. It's been too long since that thread has gotten any attention :)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 10:58:33 AM by 7/8 »
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #639 on: July 30, 2016, 08:00:54 PM »

I've continued this conversation in the Quebec's Highways thread. It's been too long since that thread has gotten any attention :)
Good point. I moved the Québec specific posts over.

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #640 on: August 03, 2016, 07:23:00 PM »

I found this article from Monday:

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/08/01/motorists-can-enter-hot-lane-lottery

Quote
Motorists will have to win a lottery if they want the privilege of paying to use toll lanes on the congested QEW.

The province has unveiled plans to allow drivers who are alone their cars to pay a toll to use existing HOV lanes on the QEW — between Trafalgar Rd. to Guelph Line — effective Sept. 15. Vehicles carrying more than one person can continue to use the HOV lanes without paying a toll.

The province announced that motorists hoping to use the HOT (high-occupancy-toll) lanes will have to enter a lottery which runs until Aug. 21. HOT permits will cost $180 for a three-month period.

“For the purpose of this pilot, the only infrastructure change that drivers will notice on the highways will be signage: HOV lanes on the QEW — from Trafalgar Rd. to Guelph Line — will be renamed HOT lanes,” said Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca.

No live lanes of traffic will be removed during the four-year trial for the toll lanes.

However, only 1,000 permits will be available for each three month period.

Del Duca said the lottery is the fairest way to distribute the permits. Motorists can apply online through Service Ontario.

“By limiting the number of permits, we are shifting our focus — for only the QEW pilot — from revenue generation to introducing a new travel method to commuters,” he added.

During the pilot project, the government hopes to find companies to develop new technologies to help it create a fully-automatic network of toll lanes across southern Ontario.

The province has announced that a 15.5-kilometre stretch of dedicated HOT lanes will open in 2021 on Hwy. 427, from Hwy. 409 to north of Rutherford Rd.
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MisterSG1

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #641 on: August 03, 2016, 08:31:37 PM »

Essentially what is being sold here is a cap and trade system....or similar to the medallion system with cabs.

I hope to god this isn't the permanent way they choose to approach this. I'm fairly conservative on most issues, but when it comes to the commute, everyone should be on an even playing field, the government should provide with infrastructure, many ways to commute EFFICIENTLY. This, along with nonsense like toll highways are incredibly unfair.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #642 on: August 03, 2016, 08:38:05 PM »

Essentially what is being sold here is a cap and trade system....or similar to the medallion system with cabs.

I hope to god this isn't the permanent way they choose to approach this. I'm fairly conservative on most issues, but when it comes to the commute, everyone should be on an even playing field, the government should provide with infrastructure, many ways to commute EFFICIENTLY. This, along with nonsense like toll highways are incredibly unfair.

It also seems to defeat the whole purpose of having HOV lanes in the first place, if you can simply pay money to get out of the requirement of having passengers. I would imagine environmentalists would be strongly opposed to this. And I agree, it sounds like an idea that unfairly benefits the wealthy.
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MisterSG1

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #643 on: August 03, 2016, 09:14:48 PM »

Essentially what is being sold here is a cap and trade system....or similar to the medallion system with cabs.

I hope to god this isn't the permanent way they choose to approach this. I'm fairly conservative on most issues, but when it comes to the commute, everyone should be on an even playing field, the government should provide with infrastructure, many ways to commute EFFICIENTLY. This, along with nonsense like toll highways are incredibly unfair.

It also seems to defeat the whole purpose of having HOV lanes in the first place, if you can simply pay money to get out of the requirement of having passengers. I would imagine environmentalists would be strongly opposed to this. And I agree, it sounds like an idea that unfairly benefits the wealthy.

Great that you understand the issue I'm talking about.....if only a limited number of permits are issued, that means assuming the permits are transferable, that means that permit owners may "lease" their permits to those willing to pay for it. This is precisely the issue with the medallion system with cabs, where the actual license may cost a few thousand a year, but medallions in NYC sold for over a million back in 2011 (before the invasion of Uber which brought medallions down to the dumps).


Other cities do have HOT lanes, but I never understood the purpose of it. Even worse is that many HOT lanes use dynamic pricing, where the lane will cost more depending on overall demand. Uber does this exact same tactic and calls it "surge pricing", and has generated loads of controversy, yet no one complains when the government employs the same tactic.

As for "induced demand", I honestly understand that to be part of the overall green agenda myself. The main beliefs on induced demand seem to have come from a study based at UC Berkeley (enough said....) by Mark Hansen and Yuanlin Huang, there were a lot of assumptions with this document, they used gasoline sales instead of discrete counting to estimate how many cars used the roads. But yet, this document was treated like the holy grail as plans for HOV lanes became widespread after this. Then there is "The Price of Anarchy in Transportation Networks", in which a new group went as far as saying eliminating freeways helps alleviate traffic. While that is probably true, something tells me that although traffic would stabilize in downtown Toronto if the Gardiner was removed, there would be more avoidance of downtown which would lead to an economic hit to the city. This indeed happened during last year's Pan American games, traffic did go down when the HOV lane came, but economic activity in the city took a serious hit. Ask any mom and pop business downtown during the Pan Am games and you'll see what I mean.

Just because someone from academia says something doesn't mean it's right, want to know what a U Toronto civil engineering professor said about easing Toronto's traffic problems. Introducing a license plate rationing system where odd plates get to drive one day and even plates get to drive the other day....yes, proposed by Dr. Khandker Habib at the University of Toronto, one of the so called "best" civil engineering schools in the world.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/03/19/should_toronto_ban_cars_on_certain_days_based_on_licence_plates.html

I will not be brainwashed by such "induced demand" nonsense, and I will continue to stand my ground on what I believe in.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #644 on: August 03, 2016, 09:52:43 PM »

The purpose of dynamic pricing of HOT (or express) lanes is to ensure the lanes remain free-flow; if the price is too low, more people will use them, eventually leading to a breakdown in traffic flow as the lane hits capacity.

As for "nobody complains," Google the term "Lexus lanes."
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #645 on: August 03, 2016, 11:33:37 PM »

The purpose of dynamic pricing of HOT (or express) lanes is to ensure the lanes remain free-flow; if the price is too low, more people will use them, eventually leading to a breakdown in traffic flow as the lane hits capacity.

As for "nobody complains," Google the term "Lexus lanes."
Yes, but the idea of a lottery system completely eliminates the need for dynamic pricing, or really for even calling it an HOT. They may as well auction off 1,000 transponders labeled "two persons". It's a novel concept and I will be very interested to see how it works before passing judgment, but my initial thought is that it will work fairly well. 1,000 vehicles will not all be on the road at the same time. A single lane can process around 1,900 vehicles per hour, maybe a bit more at freeway speed. If their current counts are under 1,000 HOVs per hour, then this is the easy way to ration demand. The hard way is to build infrastructure that can sense occupancy and adjust pricing on the fly.

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #646 on: August 04, 2016, 10:30:00 AM »

Great that you understand the issue I'm talking about.....if only a limited number of permits are issued, that means assuming the permits are transferable, that means that permit owners may "lease" their permits to those willing to pay for it.

They are assigned to a vehicle, and are therefore not transferable.

Other cities do have HOT lanes, but I never understood the purpose of it. Even worse is that many HOT lanes use dynamic pricing, where the lane will cost more depending on overall demand. Uber does this exact same tactic and calls it "surge pricing", and has generated loads of controversy, yet no one complains when the government employs the same tactic.

People often complain... but they also complain about taxes. This implements a user fee and therefore reduces the drain on the tax base.

As for "induced demand", I honestly understand that to be part of the overall green agenda myself.

Nope.

The main beliefs on induced demand seem to have come from a study based at UC Berkeley (enough said....) by Mark Hansen and Yuanlin Huang, there were a lot of assumptions with this document, they used gasoline sales instead of discrete counting to estimate how many cars used the roads. But yet, this document was treated like the holy grail as plans for HOV lanes became widespread after this.

HOV lanes induce demand as well. Using that argument for HOV is completely counter to itself.

Then there is "The Price of Anarchy in Transportation Networks", in which a new group went as far as saying eliminating freeways helps alleviate traffic.

Over the course of a day, it would reduce your overall numbers. Not going to help you in your peaks.


While that is probably true, something tells me that although traffic would stabilize in downtown Toronto if the Gardiner was removed, there would be more avoidance of downtown which would lead to an economic hit to the city. This indeed happened during last year's Pan American games, traffic did go down when the HOV lane came, but economic activity in the city took a serious hit. Ask any mom and pop business downtown during the Pan Am games and you'll see what I mean.

When a situation is temporary, there is a huge hit. When it becomes long term or permanent, people accept it.

I will not be brainwashed by such "induced demand" nonsense, and I will continue to stand my ground on what I believe in.

What about trip generation? That's a principle that organizations such as the ITE have been using for decades - even before the "green agenda" strawman that's been brought up. Because that's the BASIS OF INDUCED DEMAND.


A very simplified summary:

The amount of development in an area generates X number of trips.
The amount of transportation capacity is Y trips per hour.
(note I said transportation capacity, not just road. This applies just as much to all modes, including transit, cycling, walking)

Scenario 1 - X = Y, then the network will operate at 100% capacity
Scenario 2 - X > Y, then the network operates at 100% capacity, as that is the maximum possible value

If you are under scenario 2, then people have two options:
A. Do not live/do business in the congested area
B. Accept the congestion; trips are consolidated and/or discretionary trips eliminated

If there is sufficient incentive (economic, personal preference, etc) to remain in the congested area, then they will choose option B.

Now, let's throw an infrastructure expansion (let's call it E) into this.

Scenario 3 - X = (Y + E)
Now we've already established that any capacity equal to or lesser than X will operate at 100%. Therefore all you've done is serve the demand that already existed. This is commonly referred to as "induced demand" and is a thing that really does exist. And as I said, it applies just as much to transit and other modes as it does to roads.

So, why do we bother expanding our transportation network? Well, basically there's another factor out there called growth (G). This is both new residents and new business moving into in an area. And with enough growth, eventually your transportation network will be overwhelmed.

Growth Scenario - (X+G) > Y

So, we go back to the options from above. If X+G exceeds Y by too much, then more and more people will choose the first option and avoid the area. Which is not good for economic growth. But you need to pick and choose carefully where you make those expansion investments. And that's where either ham-fisted approach (more capacity will screw everything up vs. induced demand is a myth pave over everything) will fail you. It's incredibly difficult to manage it in a congested area like the GTA. So you have things like HOT - where you expand capacity, but do so in a way that maximizes those limited resources.

Having every lane open to every vehicle and it all being free to use is a nice fantasy. In a world without constraints it could work. But we live in the real world, one with limited space, limited money, limited resources, and a growing number of people all demanding to use them. They need to be managed.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 10:32:31 AM by cbeach40 »
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #647 on: August 04, 2016, 12:40:30 PM »

More curiosities with the GTA!

It turns out that not only Highway 400 was supposed to be extended south, exit numbers reflect it. Now I know why Highway 401 is Exit 21 instead of Exit 1; it reflects the southward extension.

The street network is odd - streets shift and turn, the grid is skewed, and some streets don't even have directional suffixes. Vaughan and Markham don't seem to have this problem, though isn't their street network a continuation of Toronto's? Maybe Toronto's street network dates to the colonial era.

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #648 on: August 04, 2016, 12:49:08 PM »

Maybe Toronto's street network dates to the colonial era.

 :nod:
A lot of roads that don't follow the grid date back to the days prior to the British concession system being put in place there. They follow old colonization trails and the like.

Most of Ontario follows that system. A big exception is Kitchener-Waterloo, where the German settlers used their own freaky system.  :biggrin:
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #649 on: August 04, 2016, 12:54:05 PM »

Maybe Toronto's street network dates to the colonial era.

 :nod:
A lot of roads that don't follow the grid date back to the days prior to the British concession system being put in place there. They follow old colonization trails and the like.

Most of Ontario follows that system. A big exception is Kitchener-Waterloo, where the German settlers used their own freaky system.  :biggrin:

Yep, I mentioned this in my Cites with odd street networks thread. It was certainly a big change going from Brampton's grid system to KW :-D
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