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Author Topic: Ontario's Highways  (Read 403448 times)

lordsutch

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #725 on: August 25, 2016, 07:15:14 PM »

Highway 407 was always planned as a bypass of 401 and 427 (although the southern section of 407 was originally intended to be Highway 403, hence why the 407 "bounces" off the QEW and there's a 403 multiplex with the QEW). My recollection was that it was built as a mostly-private project partially on the basis of ideology by the Ontario government of the day and partially to deliver it sooner. It was also really one of the first P3-type infrastructure projects in North America (around the same time as the Dulles Greenway), so some of the lessons learned from that first wave really weren't known yet - in retrospect, Ontario probably would have kept more control of the project, particularly in terms of tolls.

As for Highway 402, it was built substantially earlier (mostly in the 70s) and likely had limited prospect of being a viable toll road with the 401 as a toll-free, and at the time not particularly congested, alternative for the long-distance traffic it was built to serve - if there were no Blue Water Bridge crossing, there'd be no need for a London-Sarnia freeway.
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andrepoiy

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #726 on: August 25, 2016, 07:17:08 PM »

Some more strange things I've thought about is Highway 7's downloading and why 407 was tolled.

For one, was Highway 7 congested through Markham and Vaughan and thus needed a freeway bypass?

During construction of Highway 407, was it supposed to be tolled as a P3 and thus Cintra managed the tolls?

Was the government in debt at the time and thus needed the toll money?

It's really strange that Highway 407 isn't free and is priced very high. Highway 402 had also replaced Highway 7 and that never got tolled.
Highway 7 is a limited-access highway from somewhere to Bayview, and then it has the idiotic bus lanes.
I think the 407 was constructed as a bypass of the 401.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #727 on: August 25, 2016, 07:31:30 PM »

Some more strange things I've thought about is Highway 7's downloading and why 407 was tolled.

For one, was Highway 7 congested through Markham and Vaughan and thus needed a freeway bypass?

During construction of Highway 407, was it supposed to be tolled as a P3 and thus Cintra managed the tolls?

Was the government in debt at the time and thus needed the toll money?

It's really strange that Highway 407 isn't free and is priced very high. Highway 402 had also replaced Highway 7 and that never got tolled.
Highway 7 is a limited-access highway from somewhere to Bayview, and then it has the idiotic bus lanes.
I think the 407 was constructed as a bypass of the 401.
Correct. Highway 407 was the replacement for Highway 7 and the bypass for Highway 401.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #728 on: August 26, 2016, 08:33:46 AM »

Quick points re: 407ETR

- Highway 402 was built conventionally back in the 1970s and 80s. The transfer of the parallel sections of Highways 7 and 22 was done much later, and unrelated to tolling.
- Highway 407 was originally conceived back in the 1960s as bypass of Highway 401
- MTO owned Highway 7 between Highway 410 and Markham up until 1997. It was transferred to Peel and York Regions as practically it does not serve through traffic
- The semi-limited access portion of Highway 7 from approximately from Keele to Bayview was built in conjunction with Highway 407 preparatory work, and just provides local express routing
- Highway 407 was originally built as what was then a PPP or P-3 with the province retaining ownership
- In order to balance the 1999 budget heading into an election, the government (Mike Harris' Ontario PC party) signed a leased with the 407 consortium for $3.107 Billion (1999 dollars). The lease runs for 99 years.
- The portion between the Freeman Interchange (km 0 of the 407) and Highway 403 at Oakville (exit 24) was unbuilt at the time, and was indeed intended to become Highway 403. It was included in the lease, and opened as part of Highway 407 in 2001.
- The pricing is based on the market, and the market is quite good for the company. Based on their annual results, since 2001 it has cost road users $8.5 Billion (unadjusted for inflation). This has generated a cumulative $1.45 Billion (unadjusted) in profit for the company, with nary a cent going going into provincial coffers.
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MisterSG1

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #729 on: August 26, 2016, 09:33:24 AM »

Highway 7 is a limited-access highway from somewhere to Bayview, and then it has the idiotic bus lanes.
I think the 407 was constructed as a bypass of the 401.

The Viva Rapidway...or shall we say Snailway.

Long before Rob Ford came out of the woodwork, I was an opponent of these so called LRT/BRT plans in which the transit vehicle runs in the median mainly because of the serious alterations to roadway, and the little benefit it provides (possibly could be more of a curse than a help, I'll get to that later)

I went to a Toronto City Hall meeting back in 2007, where they had the people from the RATP (the Paris equivalent of the TTC) to push the concept of LRT. At this meeting, Joe Mihevic, the councillor who championed the St Clair project had the nerve to say I didn't know what the hell I was talking about, it seems everyone says that to me, but I'm digressing.


The initial portion of the Hwy 7 Rapidway was from the 404 to about Bayview, and I'm sure you remember how Hwy 7 looked in this stretch prior to the construction of the rapidway. Most intersections used protected-permissive left turn situations, you know, the 4 signal heads with the green/yellow arrow. As well, most, if not all intersections had RIGHT TURN LANES from Highway 7.

When the Rapidway was constructed, a bike lane was added to the roadway, while the right turn lanes were ELIMINATED. What this does, it turns the right lane into an option lane which allows for straight and right movements, and you know as well as I do, you can't make a right turn at full speed. Thus we have just two actual through lanes instead of the three we had before. If pedestrians are crossing this street, which there aren't many in suburbia, that will effectively stop flow in the right lane until the pedestrian clears the intersection.

As for left turns, every single intersection now has to have fully protected left turns for two reasons. The first reason has to do with line of sight, as now with the wider intersection, it's more difficult to see traffic coming the other way safely. The second reason is the conflict we have with the transit vehicle if a permissive left turn were allowed.

In all situations where a transit Right-Of-Way is used in Ontario, that is the Highway 7 rapidway, and the streetcar situations on the Queensway, St. Clair, and Spadina, the fully protected movement happens at the beginning of the cycle, what is known as a leading left. Because of this leading left, even if the normal straight traffic faces a green, the transit signal will have to face to a red during this time. This usually lasts about 15-20 seconds, and think about 15-20 seconds being added at every light you catch, which will usually always happen. You can see that there is almost zero benefit to the transit vehicle versus the status quo which existed before in most cases. In fact, it's possible that it now takes longer to complete the route than before, as some studies on Spadina have suggested.

I have to run now, but if you want me to post more on this topic I will.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #730 on: August 26, 2016, 01:20:35 PM »

At this meeting, Joe Mihevic, the councillor who championed the St Clair project had the nerve to say I didn't know what the hell I was talking about, it seems everyone says that to me, but I'm digressing.
I think that's code for "we don't want to listen to your opinion because you're outside the operating paradigm/group-think".  At least, that's been the conclusion I've been developing based on my observation on just about every debate and controversy going on these days in all of society.
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jakeroot

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #731 on: August 26, 2016, 01:44:52 PM »

As for left turns, every single intersection now has to have fully protected left turns for two reasons. The first reason has to do with line of sight, as now with the wider intersection, it's more difficult to see traffic coming the other way safely. The second reason is the conflict we have with the transit vehicle if a permissive left turn were allowed.

If Canada used the flashing yellow arrow, you could show a red arrow when a train passes through, and use the flashing yellow arrow at all other times (this is partly the reason for the development of the FYA -- part time signals). The same effect could be achieved by using LED "no left turn" displays that would only light up when a train passes through, but I'm not sure it would be as effective.
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MisterSG1

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #732 on: August 26, 2016, 03:24:53 PM »

As for left turns, every single intersection now has to have fully protected left turns for two reasons. The first reason has to do with line of sight, as now with the wider intersection, it's more difficult to see traffic coming the other way safely. The second reason is the conflict we have with the transit vehicle if a permissive left turn were allowed.

If Canada used the flashing yellow arrow, you could show a red arrow when a train passes through, and use the flashing yellow arrow at all other times (this is partly the reason for the development of the FYA -- part time signals). The same effect could be achieved by using LED "no left turn" displays that would only light up when a train passes through, but I'm not sure it would be as effective.

The issue here is with line of sight as I pointed out, you can't safely see oncoming traffic far enough to allow for a permissive-protected left turn. So a FYA wouldn't matter in this situation.
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jakeroot

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #733 on: August 26, 2016, 06:07:44 PM »

As for left turns, every single intersection now has to have fully protected left turns for two reasons. The first reason has to do with line of sight, as now with the wider intersection, it's more difficult to see traffic coming the other way safely. The second reason is the conflict we have with the transit vehicle if a permissive left turn were allowed.

If Canada used the flashing yellow arrow, you could show a red arrow when a train passes through, and use the flashing yellow arrow at all other times (this is partly the reason for the development of the FYA -- part time signals). The same effect could be achieved by using LED "no left turn" displays that would only light up when a train passes through, but I'm not sure it would be as effective.

The issue here is with line of sight as I pointed out, you can't safely see oncoming traffic far enough to allow for a permissive-protected left turn. So a FYA wouldn't matter in this situation.

As long as you pull forward, the sight/distance is exactly the same as with a narrow median. Then again, we're not talking about big ass walls around the railway path. This stretch of light rail in Seattle (below) runs in a median. Granted, the signals are protected lefts (more due to SDOT's traffic control department not being very innovative), but the sight/distance isn't an issue here at all. I can see several hundred feet in the other direction, and this photo isn't even taken from the left turn lane.

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andrepoiy

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« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 10:52:29 PM by andrepoiy »
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jakeroot

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #735 on: August 26, 2016, 11:06:36 PM »

yes, but at most intersections on the bus lane stretch of hwy 7, there are huge bus stops that block people's views...

Busways are a stickier situation, IMO. I'd imagine that the buses run much more frequently than a light-rail line would, to the point where a protected-only turn might be preferable, so that the light didn't keep switching between protected and permissive every time a bus arrived.

Regardless, I still don't think the sight lines are that bad. Like I said before, as long as you pull forward, the view is still plenty good.
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vdeane

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #736 on: August 27, 2016, 02:02:22 PM »

Maybe in the direction shown in the link, but in the other direction, the view is blocked by the bus stop.
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MisterSG1

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #737 on: August 27, 2016, 07:24:35 PM »

Maybe in the direction shown in the link, but in the other direction, the view is blocked by the bus stop.

Hmm, doing more thought on this topic regarding "line of sight", I've noticed that it's not always consistent, regardless, this kind of phasing cannot use a FYA no matter what and I'll get to why later on when I address jakeroot.

My initial thought regarded Lake Shore Boulevard, the first three intersections east of the Humber River have SINGLE LANE fully protected lefts, here is the intersection at Lake Shore/Ellis for instance, that because such a wide median, one cannot make a left turn safely in a permissive phase so thus a fully protected left had to be implemented:

https://goo.gl/maps/JREA2VFNTs62
-And for the record, this intersection is one of the few where a LAGGING LEFT movement happens in Ontario, since this is a T intersection, a lagging left cannot cause left turning traffic to be caught in a yellow trap, so I assumed line of sight is the issue why a fully protected left is used here rather than a permissive-protected left


Similarly, in this intersection close to me in Brampton which I have discussed on another thread, although both sides have a single left turn lane, the traffic on EB Queen wishing to turn left faces a FULLY PROTECTED left turn, while the traffic on WB Queen wishing to turn left faces a PROTECTED-PERMISSIVE left turn. Similarly, I used to think that this happens because traffic coming up the hill approaching the intersection appears blind to those wishing to turn left. Perhaps this is the case, I haven't read all through OTM Book 12 in detail to know the exact specifications of when a fully protected left turn is a must.


But yet the question remains, why are turns allowed (although not in AM Rush or PM Rush) FROM University Avenue to Elm St. I mean this median looks about as wide as the one on Lake Shore, yet a left turn is allowed here, despite it being fairly dangerous in my opinion:

https://goo.gl/maps/etgBjmS7Jb52
I mean, line of sight aside, look at the turning conflict, generally if you watch this intersection, you'll find drivers "criss-crossing" each other as they wait to left turn as you can see this minivan doing. This is potentially dangerous, yet you are allowed to turn here.

https://goo.gl/maps/8MCn75k27wR2
Similarly, as we can see, turning TO University, how are you supposed to left turn properly in this situation, you can't wait before the white line here, it's impossible, people drive all the way to turning point roughly halfway through this intersection if they want to turn left on University, again drivers will inevitably crisscross which is potentially dangerous.


The question I wonder, since Ontario gloats about having the safest roads in North America, why are these whacko movements to/from University (and to a lesser extent, some left movements onto Spadina) bur yet that Lake Shore intersection I showed earlier doesn't allow for any permissive turn?

NOW REPLYING TO JAKEROOT ABOUT FYA

There is one basic reason why you can't use a FYA situation here as well, line of sight aside.

YOU WILL ESSENTIALLY CREATE A VARIATION OF THE YELLOW TRAP!!!

Imagine that we used FYAs for a second and try to imagine this scenario:

I enter Hwy 7/Valleymede wanting to turn left and the signal is a FYA. Oncoming traffic on Hwy 7 is heavy and I cannot turn left, my FYA signal changes into a solid yellow arrow as a bus is approaching this intersection, this creates a yellow trap as oncoming traffic will still have a green and I am now stuck in the middle of the intersection potentially stopped on the path of the bus lane

I have seen some intersections with transit right-of-ways have permissive-protected lefts for regular vehicles, there is one at Queen's Quay/Dan Leckie shown below:

https://goo.gl/maps/MpnwvbPMre12

In this situation, the transit vehicle gets a phase all to itself, practically every other streetcar ROW intersection in Toronto uses the fully protected left to my knowledge.

One can easily see how this is disadvantageous to transit users, as they will have to potentially wait while traffic to the right of them gets to proceed through the green. It seems inefficient to me, to have a phase where the only thing that moves is a bus/streetcar, but that's my personal opinion.
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jakeroot

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #738 on: August 28, 2016, 01:15:35 AM »

There is one basic reason why you can't use a FYA situation here as well, line of sight aside.

YOU WILL ESSENTIALLY CREATE A VARIATION OF THE YELLOW TRAP!!!...I enter Hwy 7/Valleymede wanting to turn left and the signal is a FYA. Oncoming traffic on Hwy 7 is heavy and I cannot turn left, my FYA signal changes into a solid yellow arrow as a bus is approaching this intersection, this creates a yellow trap as oncoming traffic will still have a green and I am now stuck in the middle of the intersection potentially stopped on the path of the bus lane

That's a very good point. The only fix I can think of (off-the-cuff) is to time the pass-through of the LRT/buses to the beginning of the through phase. The left turns would see a red arrow, switching to a flashing yellow arrow following the pass-through of the LRT or bus, followed by a protected green arrow if necessary.
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jakeroot

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #739 on: August 28, 2016, 01:21:00 AM »

Maybe in the direction shown in the link, but in the other direction, the view is blocked by the bus stop.

From the stop line. But if you pull forward, the view is good.

https://goo.gl/maps/etgBjmS7Jb52
I mean, line of sight aside, look at the turning conflict, generally if you watch this intersection, you'll find drivers "criss-crossing" each other as they wait to left turn as you can see this minivan doing. This is potentially dangerous, yet you are allowed to turn here.

A similar situation to that occurs at several Vancouver intersections. Some (read: very, very few) roads have wide medians, with fully permissive movements. In situations such as this, cars usually turn across each other's paths. Dangerous? I'm not so sure. It's more awkward than dangerous. Here's a video I filmed several months ago of this type of intersection (which is very similar to the intersection in your link -- please try and ignore some of the commentary; I was just rambling to fill time):

« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 01:25:10 AM by jakeroot »
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #740 on: August 28, 2016, 04:52:57 PM »

While we're talking about permissive lefts - New Jersey's policy is it can only cross two lanes of oncoming traffic. If you have to look across 3 or more lanes, including left-turn or right-turn bays, the turn has to be protected. I would imagine the same goes for rail lines. We don't have much in the way of narrow medians but in general you won't find a permissive left turn from the right side of the median - it has to be cut in.

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #741 on: August 28, 2016, 07:27:38 PM »

While we're talking about permissive lefts - New Jersey's policy is it can only cross two lanes of oncoming traffic. If you have to look across 3 or more lanes, including left-turn or right-turn bays, the turn has to be protected.

Look across or yield to? If the former, wouldn't that eliminate any permissive left where there's two through lanes and a left turn lane?
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #742 on: August 28, 2016, 10:10:36 PM »

While we're talking about permissive lefts - New Jersey's policy is it can only cross two lanes of oncoming traffic. If you have to look across 3 or more lanes, including left-turn or right-turn bays, the turn has to be protected.

Look across or yield to? If the former, wouldn't that eliminate any permissive left where there's two through lanes and a left turn lane?
Look across. If the left turn lane is opposing, you're okay. If the left turn lane is not opposing, you're not okay.

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #743 on: August 29, 2016, 04:21:02 PM »

I was wondering if anyone knew the names of the different segments of the Trans-Canada Highway in Ontario?  I have a partial list:

  • Hwy 17 (Nipagon-Sault Ste Marie) - Lake Superior Route
  • Hwy 17 (North Bay-east) - Ottawa Valley Route
  • Hwy 69/400 - Georgian Bay Route
  • Hwy 7/12 - Central Ontario Route
  • Hwy 11 (North Bay - Nigagon) - Northern Ontario Route (?)
  • Hwy 66 - ???
  • [Quebec] Hwy 15/117 - Laurentian Route (?)
  • Others?
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #744 on: August 29, 2016, 05:58:51 PM »

According to Travel Mapping: ON 66 is Kirkland Lake; ON 17/11 is Voyageur; ON 17A is Kenora; ON 11 is indeed Northern Ontario.

Travel Mapping using Kirkland Lake for QC 117/A-15 and Main for A-40/A-25/A-20/A-85/QC 185.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #745 on: August 30, 2016, 06:17:53 AM »

There is one basic reason why you can't use a FYA situation here as well, line of sight aside.

YOU WILL ESSENTIALLY CREATE A VARIATION OF THE YELLOW TRAP!!!...I enter Hwy 7/Valleymede wanting to turn left and the signal is a FYA. Oncoming traffic on Hwy 7 is heavy and I cannot turn left, my FYA signal changes into a solid yellow arrow as a bus is approaching this intersection, this creates a yellow trap as oncoming traffic will still have a green and I am now stuck in the middle of the intersection potentially stopped on the path of the bus lane

That's a very good point. The only fix I can think of (off-the-cuff) is to time the pass-through of the LRT/buses to the beginning of the through phase. The left turns would see a red arrow, switching to a flashing yellow arrow following the pass-through of the LRT or bus, followed by a protected green arrow if necessary.

And i guess that's part of the problem.  IF they are limited to only the top of the phase, buses will have to wait for the entire cycle if they even get delayed a little.  So to prioritize the mode of transit, left turners are subject to waiting the full phase and are stuck to a protected only signal.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #746 on: August 30, 2016, 07:43:08 AM »

According to Travel Mapping: ON 66 is Kirkland Lake; ON 17/11 is Voyageur; ON 17A is Kenora; ON 11 is indeed Northern Ontario.

Travel Mapping using Kirkland Lake for QC 117/A-15 and Main for A-40/A-25/A-20/A-85/QC 185.

TM, and its predecessor Clinched Highway Mapping, generally use city names to distinguish between different route segments within a province. No attempt to follow official names.
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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #747 on: August 30, 2016, 09:37:36 AM »

I was wondering if anyone knew the names of the different segments of the Trans-Canada Highway in Ontario?  I have a partial list:

  • Hwy 17 (Nipagon-Sault Ste Marie) - Lake Superior Route
  • Hwy 17 (North Bay-east) - Ottawa Valley Route
  • Hwy 69/400 - Georgian Bay Route
  • Hwy 7/12 - Central Ontario Route
  • Hwy 11 (North Bay - Nigagon) - Northern Ontario Route (?)
  • Hwy 66 - ???
  • [Quebec] Hwy 15/117 - Laurentian Route (?)
  • Others?

Best to have ON-17/417 as TCH-1!

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #748 on: August 30, 2016, 11:48:25 AM »

There is one basic reason why you can't use a FYA situation here as well, line of sight aside.

YOU WILL ESSENTIALLY CREATE A VARIATION OF THE YELLOW TRAP!!!...I enter Hwy 7/Valleymede wanting to turn left and the signal is a FYA. Oncoming traffic on Hwy 7 is heavy and I cannot turn left, my FYA signal changes into a solid yellow arrow as a bus is approaching this intersection, this creates a yellow trap as oncoming traffic will still have a green and I am now stuck in the middle of the intersection potentially stopped on the path of the bus lane

That's a very good point. The only fix I can think of (off-the-cuff) is to time the pass-through of the LRT/buses to the beginning of the through phase. The left turns would see a red arrow, switching to a flashing yellow arrow following the pass-through of the LRT or bus, followed by a protected green arrow if necessary.

And i guess that's part of the problem.  IF they are limited to only the top of the phase, buses will have to wait for the entire cycle if they even get delayed a little.  So to prioritize the mode of transit, left turners are subject to waiting the full phase and are stuck to a protected only signal.

After doing a bit of research, it turns out that the NYC subway runs at a maximum of one train every two minutes, and one of Brisbane's busways operates a maximum of one bus every 12 seconds. So, there are clearly times when the permissive phase wouldn't work. But that's the beauty of the FYA: they can operate based on time-of-day (TOD). During peak hour, the permissive left turn would be skipped to allow trains or buses to continue unimpeded. But during other times, when the headways are much longer, the permissive phase could be enabled.

The only real issue (and this is a big one) is that trains and buses run in both directions, so a even if a bus or train only arrived two minutes ago, the station in the opposite direction may have not had a bus in 15 or 20 minutes (meaning that a bus or train's arrival is imminent). While I'm not certain how the rest of the country's at-grade rail or busways work, the intersections around here that have light rail crossings are 100% timed. Consequently, the signals could be timed to enable a permissive phase.
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MisterSG1

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #749 on: August 30, 2016, 12:58:59 PM »

While we're talking about permissive lefts - New Jersey's policy is it can only cross two lanes of oncoming traffic. If you have to look across 3 or more lanes, including left-turn or right-turn bays, the turn has to be protected. I would imagine the same goes for rail lines. We don't have much in the way of narrow medians but in general you won't find a permissive left turn from the right side of the median - it has to be cut in.

Hang on, while I'll be honest and say I haven't spent much time in NJ, let me get one thing straight, are you saying that if there's for instance one opposing left turn lane and two regular lanes at an intersection that the intersection will need to be protected?

At what level of protection, protected-permissive or fully protected? This policy doesn't seem to make much sense if it is fully protected.
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