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Increased speed limits on Oklahoma interstates

Started by dchristy, April 20, 2019, 10:30:35 PM

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jakeroot

Quote from: kphoger on May 06, 2019, 09:02:41 PM
Certainly not!  No, they came over as exchange students around age 17 with no driving experience at all.  They took driver's education in a town of 1300 people in the middle of western Kansas, took a written exam at the state office, and got a drivers license.  They then went back to Germany or Croatia or wherever they were from and promptly exchanged it for a national driver's license in their home country.

Assuming that driver education in Europe wasn't hilariously easy at the time, I would hope they took additional training once back home! No disrespect to Kansas, but I doubt it's even remotely similar to driving in urban Europe. Sounds almost like it was a loophole!


J N Winkler

I think the license exchange relationship between Germany and a handful of US states is connected to US service personnel being stationed in Germany.  The last time I looked at the list of states involved, it seemed to consist mostly of ones that have large Army posts--Kansas has Fort Riley.

Nothing similar is available for Britain, which does not even have exchange relationships with much of the Commonwealth (none of the Canadian provinces, for example), though it does with New Zealand and at least some of the Australian states.

The disadvantage of obtaining a license in a new jurisdiction by exchanging the old one is that the old one is sent back to the issuing jurisdiction for voiding.  This may not be a problem for a German exchange student who doesn't plan to come back to Kansas to live, but people who intend to maintain ties to a former home often choose to follow the new-driver process in the new one and then maintain licenses in multiple jurisdictions.  It is not uncommon, for example, for Britons to move to California and then need multiple tries to pass the driving test there.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

rte66man

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 06, 2019, 11:57:59 PM
I think the license exchange relationship between Germany and a handful of US states is connected to US service personnel being stationed in Germany.  The last time I looked at the list of states involved, it seemed to consist mostly of ones that have large Army posts--Kansas has Fort Riley.

Nothing similar is available for Britain, which does not even have exchange relationships with much of the Commonwealth (none of the Canadian provinces, for example), though it does with New Zealand and at least some of the Australian states.

The disadvantage of obtaining a license in a new jurisdiction by exchanging the old one is that the old one is sent back to the issuing jurisdiction for voiding.  This may not be a problem for a German exchange student who doesn't plan to come back to Kansas to live, but people who intend to maintain ties to a former home often choose to follow the new-driver process in the new one and then maintain licenses in multiple jurisdictions.  It is not uncommon, for example, for Britons to move to California and then need multiple tries to pass the driving test there.

I grew up in England and learned to drive there. I still have my British "driving license" as it is good until I turn 70 (although I wouldn't dream of presenting it to a cop). The test was very difficult. It was pass/fail. Miss one thing and you had to try again six months later.  I took 3 months of lessons before I took the test.  When I cam back to the States to go  to college, I passed the OK test with zero problems. It was a cakewalk.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

J N Winkler

Quote from: rte66man on May 07, 2019, 01:56:16 PMI grew up in England and learned to drive there. I still have my British "driving license" as it is good until I turn 70 (although I wouldn't dream of presenting it to a cop). The test was very difficult. It was pass/fail. Miss one thing and you had to try again six months later.  I took 3 months of lessons before I took the test.  When I cam back to the States to go  to college, I passed the OK test with zero problems. It was a cakewalk.

I have a GB driver's license (green paper) that is valid through the day before my seventieth birthday.  At the time I obtained it, photocards were not yet compulsory, and the licensing process had just a written ("theory") test and a driving test.  I took the driving test with a full Kansas driver's license and six years' worth of behind-the-wheel experience, and failed.  Faults on the test were graded as dangerous, major, or minor, and as part of the New Labour government's road traffic reduction initiatives, the pass cutoffs for major and minor errors were rejiggered three weeks before I took my test so that it was much more difficult to pass.  I racked up enough major and minor faults that I would have passed under the old criteria but failed under the new ones.

Testing procedures have been updated since and I believe they now include a video-based hazard perception test.

The examiner who failed me suggested that I take lessons.  The implied message was this:  lessons not to learn how to drive, but rather to learn how to take the driving test as it is administered by the Driving Standards Agency in Great Britain.  This is actually the main reason I tend to push back against suggestions that driving tests be made much more rigorous.  When a test becomes more persnickety, with multiplication of the specific things examiners look for (e.g., in South Africa examiners check that you look at the inside rearview mirror at least once every 20 seconds), an ecosystem develops that is built around compliance (training drivers to do what the examiners expect them to do) rather than around safety.  This training is expensive, which serves as a drag on drivers becoming licensed (often a desired outcome from the standpoint of reducing car traffic), and is not portable, with the result that experienced and competent British drivers can go to California and fail the driving test there because they are not jumping through the hoops that the California examiners expect.  This focus on compliance, besides disadvantaging lower-income learner drivers, can actually get in the way of skills development by making it more difficult for novice drivers to practice in real-world settings.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

vdeane

When I say I want a more comprehensive driver's test, I'm not talking about things like "checked the mirror every 20 seconds" or even NY's infamous "have them pull off from the curb and then make an immediate right, and fault them if they fail just drive straight rather than pull left away from the curb first".  It's about things like "can they safely handle an arterial", "can they merge onto a freeway without causing congestion", etc.  Stuff that would actually make someone a better driver.  I'd even find a way to include winter driving/rain/etc. if possible (if simulators get good enough, it should be possible to cover all of this in one form or another - if not, maybe a system where you're not allowed to drive in circumstances you're not tested for, such as how Europe bans people from driving stick if they take the test in an automatic).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

J N Winkler

Quote from: vdeane on May 08, 2019, 12:38:00 PMWhen I say I want a more comprehensive driver's test, I'm not talking about things like "checked the mirror every 20 seconds" or even NY's infamous "have them pull off from the curb and then make an immediate right, and fault them if they fail just drive straight rather than pull left away from the curb first".  It's about things like "can they safely handle an arterial", "can they merge onto a freeway without causing congestion", etc.  Stuff that would actually make someone a better driver.

I would say that licensing procedures have been moving in this general direction with the inclusion of hazard perception testing.  Other than this, I don't think licensing authorities in general see their primary mission as ensuring that other drivers are socialized to drive in a fashion that is less annoying to you or me.  Safety is really the bottom line and also the performance measure that is most accessible to them, through data on reported crashes.

Moreover, I think a lot of annoyance is implicitly because there are other vehicles on the road.  In some countries, the licensing authorities are happy to try to solve this problem much as Pontius Pilate might, by making it far harder for new drivers to obtain a license than it was for us to obtain ours, economic nondiscrimination and intergenerational fairness be damned.  Be careful what you ask for . . .

Quote from: vdeane on May 08, 2019, 12:38:00 PMI'd even find a way to include winter driving/rain/etc. if possible (if simulators get good enough, it should be possible to cover all of this in one form or another - if not, maybe a system where you're not allowed to drive in circumstances you're not tested for, such as how Europe bans people from driving stick if they take the test in an automatic).

Good simulators are expensive, so barring any transformative changes in the technology, I am pessimistic about the possibilities of teaching new drivers about unusual driving conditions (I would include mountain driving as well) through simulation that is genuinely responsive to user input, let alone that reproduces the sensations and forces that a driver actually feels while driving.  (My driver education class relied heavily on simulators that were likely installed soon after the school was built in 1958 and relied heavily on filmstrips featuring automobiles from the mid- to late 1950's.  There was no element of feedback through any of the controls.)

I don't actually support automatics-only restrictions for people who test on an automatic.  They make self-study in a manual legally impossible, and this is an important way for people in the US to learn manuals after they train on automatics.  At some point, no matter how many boxes you require learner drivers to check or how many options for restricting licenses you make legally possible, you have to give drivers in general the autonomy to develop their skills further on their own and to choose voluntarily to refrain from types of driving for which they have no capacity.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

kphoger

Quote from: vdeane on May 08, 2019, 12:38:00 PM
I'd even find a way to include winter driving/rain/etc. if possible

I know a lady who grew up in central Iowa whose driver's ed instructor had them spin donuts in the snow, in order that they might know how to correct their steering during loss of traction.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

vdeane

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 08, 2019, 01:47:22 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 08, 2019, 12:38:00 PMWhen I say I want a more comprehensive driver's test, I'm not talking about things like "checked the mirror every 20 seconds" or even NY's infamous "have them pull off from the curb and then make an immediate right, and fault them if they fail just drive straight rather than pull left away from the curb first".  It's about things like "can they safely handle an arterial", "can they merge onto a freeway without causing congestion", etc.  Stuff that would actually make someone a better driver.

I would say that licensing procedures have been moving in this general direction with the inclusion of hazard perception testing.  Other than this, I don't think licensing authorities in general see their primary mission as ensuring that other drivers are socialized to drive in a fashion that is less annoying to you or me.  Safety is really the bottom line and also the performance measure that is most accessible to them, through data on reported crashes.

Moreover, I think a lot of annoyance is implicitly because there are other vehicles on the road.  In some countries, the licensing authorities are happy to try to solve this problem much as Pontius Pilate might, by making it far harder for new drivers to obtain a license than it was for us to obtain ours, economic nondiscrimination and intergenerational fairness be damned.  Be careful what you ask for . . .

Quote from: vdeane on May 08, 2019, 12:38:00 PMI'd even find a way to include winter driving/rain/etc. if possible (if simulators get good enough, it should be possible to cover all of this in one form or another - if not, maybe a system where you're not allowed to drive in circumstances you're not tested for, such as how Europe bans people from driving stick if they take the test in an automatic).

Good simulators are expensive, so barring any transformative changes in the technology, I am pessimistic about the possibilities of teaching new drivers about unusual driving conditions (I would include mountain driving as well) through simulation that is genuinely responsive to user input, let alone that reproduces the sensations and forces that a driver actually feels while driving.  (My driver education class relied heavily on simulators that were likely installed soon after the school was built in 1958 and relied heavily on filmstrips featuring automobiles from the mid- to late 1950's.  There was no element of feedback through any of the controls.)

I don't actually support automatics-only restrictions for people who test on an automatic.  They make self-study in a manual legally impossible, and this is an important way for people in the US to learn manuals after they train on automatics.  At some point, no matter how many boxes you require learner drivers to check or how many options for restricting licenses you make legally possible, you have to give drivers in general the autonomy to develop their skills further on their own and to choose voluntarily to refrain from types of driving for which they have no capacity.
I would think that driving in a way that does not cause traffic backups would be an essential skill with our overloaded urban freeways.  Proper merging is the difference between smooth sailing and stop and go.

As for the restrictions, I was using that as an example of what I'd do for driving in things like slow (with the opportunity to test that specific part later; before then, it would be the same restrictions in those circumstances as if you had a learner's permit).  That specific restriction works there because manuals are still so common that most people test that on one to avoid the restriction, whereas here it would have the effect of killing them off since most people wouldn't take the extra effort.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

kphoger

Quote from: vdeane on May 08, 2019, 12:38:00 PM
I'd even find a way to include winter driving/rain/etc. if possible (if simulators get good enough, it should be possible to cover all of this in one form or another - if not, maybe a system where you're not allowed to drive in circumstances you're not tested for, such as how Europe bans people from driving stick if they take the test in an automatic).

Back to my experience...  My school's driver's ed course was offered after classes had already let out in May–kind of difficult to include winter driving.  The town I grew up in only receives an average 21 inches of rain per year–kind of difficult to plan for driving in the rain.  The nearest town with more than 20k population was more than 130 miles away–kind of difficult to include real city traffic. 
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

okroads

Today, ODOT approved increasing speed limits from 70 to 75 on the following sections of interstate:
- I-35 from the Texas state line to Purcell
- I-35 from the Oklahoma/Logan county line to Kansas
- I-40 from the Texas state line to Yukon (except for a short section in Elk City and from Clinton-Weatherford)
- I-40 from Shawnee to Sallisaw (US 59)

rte66man

Quote from: okroads on August 03, 2020, 02:26:47 PM
Today, ODOT approved increasing speed limits from 70 to 75 on the following sections of interstate:
- I-35 from the Texas state line to Purcell
- I-35 from the Oklahoma/Logan county line to Kansas
- I-40 from the Texas state line to Yukon (except for a short section in Elk City and from Clinton-Weatherford)
- I-40 from Shawnee to Sallisaw (US 59)

One of the news stations warned people " not to drive faster until the signs are changed". As if!!
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

Scott5114

How long does it take to print a bunch of 5s on white reflective sheeting?
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

hotdogPi

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 03, 2020, 07:40:32 PM
How long does it take to print a bunch of 5s on white reflective sheeting?

If Oklahoma prints 5s, it's called counterfeiting.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

robbones

Honestly, it should be extended to the Arkansas State line on I 40. Everyone does 80 to 85 on that stretch as it is. I have a feeling that Roland and Muldrow didn't want it raised due to loss of revenue from tickets.

SM-S506DL


rte66man

Quote from: robbones on August 03, 2020, 07:53:50 PM
Honestly, it should be extended to the Arkansas State line on I 40. Everyone does 80 to 85 on that stretch as it is. I have a feeling that Roland and Muldrow didn't want it raised due to loss of revenue from tickets.

+1 regarding Muldrow. They've historically been one of the towns that gets a majority of their revenue from tickets.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

wxfree

#65
The speed limit on I-44 is now 75 from the Red River to the turnpike.  This means that the speed limit is 75 from the edge of Wichita Falls to the edge of Lawton, minus the toll zone.

They added wide shields at the toll booth.  Driving up to the coin machine is like a proficiency test, it's really narrow.  I didn't use the other two lanes, but since they're used by trucks I'd assume they aren't as narrow.
I'd like to buy a vowel, Alex.  What is E?

bugo

It's 80 on the Muskogee Turnpike north/west of Muskogee. The section south of Muskogee, which has much less traffic, is still 75. The western section has a concrete barrier while the southern section has a recently added cable barrier. That might have something to do with it.

rte66man

There seems to be ZERO logic in how some of these sections are handled.  No 80 mph anywhere on the Bailey yet 80 on the Muskogee??
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

sprjus4

Seems to be little actual difference in driving speeds between a 75 mph and 80 mph speed limit. It's just a matter of whether it's 7-8 mph over or 2-3 mph over the speed limit. People will do it regardless. Even in 70 mph zones, people will drive 82-83 mph, and in the Northeast, even with 65 mph zones.

Bobby5280

#69
Quote from: wxfreeThey added wide shields at the toll booth.  Driving up to the coin machine is like a proficiency test, it's really narrow.  I didn't use the other two lanes, but since they're used by trucks I'd assume they aren't as narrow.

The Walters toll plaza on I-44 is a dilapidated piece of garbage. You have to slow down to next to nothing going through the toll gate even if you have a PikePass. The bridge that carries OK-5/US-277/US-281 over the toll booth is in fairly bad shape and so is the road on both sides of it.

They need to replace that ancient toll booth with a design just like the latest toll plaza remodel OTA did in Coweta on the Muskogee Turnpike at the OK-51 exit. That exit and toll plaza has actually been re-built TWICE since the 1990's. The original pre-1995 design was just like the existing Walters I-44 toll plaza. They built the first PikePass friendly version in 1995, which was not a good design because it featured single PikePass lanes flanking around the toll booth, causing those PikePass lanes to have weaving conflicts with traffic using exit ramps to get on/off OK-51. So they ended up re-doing the plaza again in 2017. The current design is much better. That's what they need to build at the Walters exit on I-44.

Oklahoma Turnpike Authority had at one time a plan to replace the Walters Toll Plaza (in 2020 no less). Now the project is apparently not on the radar scope at all. It took OTA for-freaking-ever just to get the cable barrier installed on the I-44 median between Lawton and the South end of the turnpike at US-70. They put up the concrete median barriers on I-44 North of Lawton to the Missouri border over 20 damned years earlier. Jerks.

I personally don't care if OTA installs any 80mph speed limit signs on the H.E. Bailey Turnpike. That particular turnpike needs quite a bit of attention in other areas. I don't tend to drive any faster than 75mph. The gas mileage in my pickup starts going to hell near the 80mph level.

Scott5114

Someone can pass the Oklahoma driver test and then on the same day use their license to drive down TX-130, so the OK drivers test should theoretically cover aptitude for driving at 85 anyway. They generally don't bother, though. I took my driving tests in both Norman and Chickasha; despite a nearby Interstate in both cases, the test was limited to low-speed residential streets. Not all driver license testing facilities have easy access to a limited-access facility, however. How do you test for freeway aptitude in Beaver?

It's not a terrible argument that drivers should retest any time there are changes in the MUTCD or driving laws. FYAs and HAWKs hadn't been invented yet when I took my test, and APLs were limited to a few one-off signs in other states. But that's an entirely different argument to make, and doesn't resolve the above issue regarding accessibility of testing of freeway-related skills.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 16, 2020, 02:15:55 PM
Someone can pass the Oklahoma driver test and then on the same day use their license to drive down TX-130, so the OK drivers test should theoretically cover aptitude for driving at 85 anyway.

Someone can get an Oklahoma license and then drive into Mexico the next day too.

A German exchange student can get an Oklahoma license and then swap it for a German one upon returning home.

Someone can get a Hawaii license (max speed limit 60 mph) and then rent a car in Nevada (max speed limit 80 mph).

Where would it stop?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Scott5114

Wouldn't an Oklahoma resident driving in the Austin area be more likely to occur than the other scenarios listed, though? Oklahoma doesn't use No Passing Zone pennants, but they're in the book (and thus theoretically can be a test question) in case you see one in New Mexico or Kansas.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Bobby5280

The coach that taught our drivers ed classes at Quantico High School had us driving on all kinds of roads, including I-95. And he did so pretty quickly -like second or third time behind the wheel. We didn't have any 70-75mph speed limits back then however. Heck, the HOV lanes ended in Springfield, VA back then. Now they go clear down past Quantico and end in Stafford.

kphoger

I had a license when speed limits all over the country bumped up from 55/65.  I don't think everyone should have been re-tested.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.



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