https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philly-overpass-tanker/13368736/
Truck was under the overpass from northbound exit 30 to Cottman Avenue (Tacony neighborhood). Looks like this was a relatively new overpass (GSV shows it in by 2016) but I guess you can't exactly design for high temperature fires all the time.
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 11, 2023, 08:48:58 AM
https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philly-overpass-tanker/13368736/
Truck was under the overpass from northbound exit 30 to Cottman Avenue (Tacony neighborhood). Looks like this was a relatively new overpass (GSV shows it in by 2016) but I guess you can't exactly design for high temperature fires all the time.
While high (and low) temperature are pretty bad for steel, and hard to design for (cough... world trade center), I have a different question about all this. I wonder if there was a reason for the driver to stop under the bridge? The only way to get where he ended up is by taking exit 30 from the highway. Stopping literally 100 feet earlier would leave the fire burn in the open; pulling another 100' forward would be a fire in the middle of an intersection...
Of course, it's possible that driver noted something in a rear view during the turn off-ramp, and didn't think much about anything else...
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 11, 2023, 08:48:58 AM
https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philly-overpass-tanker/13368736/
Truck was under the overpass from northbound exit 30 to Cottman Avenue (Tacony neighborhood). Looks like this was a relatively new overpass (GSV shows it in by 2016) but I guess you can't exactly design for high temperature fires all the time.
I wonder how they are gonna detour traffic around this. Gonna cause a lot of traffic issues for both local and long-distance traffic for an extended period
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:09:45 AM
and hard to design for (cough... world trade center)
Almost nothing can be designed for someone intentionally trying to destroy it. The World Trade Center in particular was designed to survive accidental hits for those intending to land at an airport in New York but encountering too much fog (i.e. fuel almost empty).
This tanker fire wasn't intentional, but it collapsed anyway.
Anybody know if this is interfering with train service? We're scheduled for the 11:20 Sunday morning Acela to DC. I'm not seeing anything about delays so far, but I don't have the best track record this year in that respect.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 11, 2023, 09:19:23 AM
Anybody know if this is interfering with train service? We're scheduled for the 11:20 Sunday morning Acela to DC. I'm not seeing anything about delays so far, but I don't have the best track record this year in that respect.
I don't think train service is affected. See no alerts for SEPTA's Trenton Line which follows the NEC at this point.
Thanks. Back in March I got stuck in New York for an extra night when the Northeast Corridor was shut down for a fire, then in May I was on a train that was delayed about 45 minutes by fire department activity in Wilmington.
Quote from: 1 on June 11, 2023, 09:16:13 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:09:45 AM
and hard to design for (cough... world trade center)
Almost nothing can be designed for someone intentionally trying to destroy it. The World Trade Center in particular was designed to survive accidental hits for those intending to land at an airport in New York but encountering too much fog (i.e. fuel almost empty).
This tanker fire wasn't intentional, but it collapsed anyway.
If you will, a very tangential argument would be that WTC steel had fire protection (which failed on impact), while road bridges steel usually doesn't have any. I suspect cost (primarily extra weight of the structure) vs benefit (one accident in decade?) would be on a wrong side...
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:35:19 AM
Quote from: 1 on June 11, 2023, 09:16:13 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:09:45 AM
and hard to design for (cough... world trade center)
Almost nothing can be designed for someone intentionally trying to destroy it. The World Trade Center in particular was designed to survive accidental hits for those intending to land at an airport in New York but encountering too much fog (i.e. fuel almost empty).
This tanker fire wasn't intentional, but it collapsed anyway.
If you will, a very tangential argument would be that WTC steel had fire protection, while road bridges steel usually doesn't. I suspect cost (primarily extra weight of the structure) vs benefit (one accident in decade?) would likely be on a wrong side...
WTC also used asbestos. I wonder if people would approve of DOTs spraying all their bridges with the stuff. :D
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 11, 2023, 09:15:47 AM
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 11, 2023, 08:48:58 AM
https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philly-overpass-tanker/13368736/
Truck was under the overpass from northbound exit 30 to Cottman Avenue (Tacony neighborhood). Looks like this was a relatively new overpass (GSV shows it in by 2016) but I guess you can't exactly design for high temperature fires all the time.
I wonder how they are gonna detour traffic around this. Gonna cause a lot of traffic issues for both local and long-distance traffic for an extended period
Roosevelt Blvd is the closest option but that has a lot of traffic lights (and cameras).
I imagine many will try 276/476/76, but that will make 76 a nightmare.
Best way might be to just cross into NJ and back using the Whitman or Franklin bridges
Quote from: Rothman on June 11, 2023, 09:37:55 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:35:19 AM
Quote from: 1 on June 11, 2023, 09:16:13 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:09:45 AM
and hard to design for (cough... world trade center)
Almost nothing can be designed for someone intentionally trying to destroy it. The World Trade Center in particular was designed to survive accidental hits for those intending to land at an airport in New York but encountering too much fog (i.e. fuel almost empty).
This tanker fire wasn't intentional, but it collapsed anyway.
If you will, a very tangential argument would be that WTC steel had fire protection, while road bridges steel usually doesn't. I suspect cost (primarily extra weight of the structure) vs benefit (one accident in decade?) would likely be on a wrong side...
WTC also used asbestos. I wonder if people would approve of DOTs spraying all their bridges with the stuff. :D
As far as I understand, today they are still spraying concrete on steel - and I would think without asbestos. Not sure if there are any other additives like mineral fiber, but asbestos is definitely not there.
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:35:19 AM
Quote from: 1 on June 11, 2023, 09:16:13 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:09:45 AM
and hard to design for (cough... world trade center)
Almost nothing can be designed for someone intentionally trying to destroy it. The World Trade Center in particular was designed to survive accidental hits for those intending to land at an airport in New York but encountering too much fog (i.e. fuel almost empty).
This tanker fire wasn't intentional, but it collapsed anyway.
If you will, a very tangential argument would be that WTC steel had fire protection (which failed on impact), while road bridges steel usually doesn't hAVE ANY. I suspect cost (primarily extra weight of the structure) vs benefit (one accident in decade?) would be on a wrong side...
The consequences can be hard. See I-85 in Atlanta.
Quote from: Big John on June 11, 2023, 09:41:01 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:35:19 AM
Quote from: 1 on June 11, 2023, 09:16:13 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:09:45 AM
and hard to design for (cough... world trade center)
Almost nothing can be designed for someone intentionally trying to destroy it. The World Trade Center in particular was designed to survive accidental hits for those intending to land at an airport in New York but encountering too much fog (i.e. fuel almost empty).
This tanker fire wasn't intentional, but it collapsed anyway.
If you will, a very tangential argument would be that WTC steel had fire protection (which failed on impact), while road bridges steel usually doesn't hAVE ANY. I suspect cost (primarily extra weight of the structure) vs benefit (one accident in decade?) would be on a wrong side...
The consequences can be hard. See I-85 in Atlanta.
Bridges are bottlenecks of the network. They are pretty expensive, so there is often no spare capacity. Any bridge failure is a problem, regardless of it's nature. Would fire protection make overall situation better, or would add a failure point (such as complicating inspections)?
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
The technology you keep trying to push is only good in an ideal world, Kernals.
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 11, 2023, 09:15:47 AM
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 11, 2023, 08:48:58 AM
https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philly-overpass-tanker/13368736/
Truck was under the overpass from northbound exit 30 to Cottman Avenue (Tacony neighborhood). Looks like this was a relatively new overpass (GSV shows it in by 2016) but I guess you can't exactly design for high temperature fires all the time.
I wonder how they are gonna detour traffic around this. Gonna cause a lot of traffic issues for both local and long-distance traffic for an extended period
13? Yeah, it'll be disastrous.
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
could the new overpass deck be built off to the side on top platforms while the existing deck is demoed, like the US 1 work in Connecticut over 95 there?
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
1. Assess damage
2. Design repair
3. Remove old structure
4. Contract vendor
5. Vendor constructs replacement structure
...
...
10. Install replacement in just 2 days.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 11, 2023, 10:24:21 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
The technology you keep trying to push is only good in an ideal world, Kernals.
https://www.penndot.pa.gov/about-us/StateTransportationInnovationCouncil/Innovations/Pages/ABC.aspx
QuoteABC simplifies and accelerates bridge construction. It allows bridges to be replaced within 48 to 72 hours and can reduce planning and bridge construction efforts, as well as project costs.
(https://i.imgur.com/b3OHGKI.jpg)
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:40:59 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 11, 2023, 10:24:21 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
The technology you keep trying to push is only good in an ideal world, Kernals.
(https://i.imgur.com/b3OHGKI.jpg)
Impact font memes in 2023. Sure, buddy.
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:40:59 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 11, 2023, 10:24:21 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
The technology you keep trying to push is only good in an ideal world, Kernals.
https://www.penndot.pa.gov/about-us/StateTransportationInnovationCouncil/Innovations/Pages/ABC.aspx
QuoteABC simplifies and accelerates bridge construction. It allows bridges to be replaced within 48 to 72 hours and can reduce planning and bridge construction efforts, as well as project costs.
(https://i.imgur.com/b3OHGKI.jpg)
That time is an on-site install time, which doesn't include any prep work. You can get a new fridge installed within an hour from the moment delivery truck rolls into the driveway. Doesn't mean you can order a fridge for same-day delivery, and date stamp on delivered one would probably be at least a year before.
Sincerely,
Captain Obvious
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 11, 2023, 10:46:30 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:40:59 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 11, 2023, 10:24:21 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
The technology you keep trying to push is only good in an ideal world, Kernals.
(https://i.imgur.com/b3OHGKI.jpg)
Impact font memes in 2023. Sure, buddy.
Can you make it even smaller?
I wonder if SEPTA is gonna add commuter train service along the Trenton Line to help commuters who will be affected by the extended closure of I-95.
PA decided that after 5 years, they didn't like I-95 being complete after all :-P
And of course, this isn't their first time...
https://billypenn.com/2018/07/13/two-decades-ago-10000-tires-caught-fire-in-port-richmond-and-melted-part-of-i-95/
This happened in 2008, although it wasn't as serious as today:
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna23684974
...This couldn't have happened on one of the sections that hasn't been rebuilt yet?
Looked at the DelDOT app and VMSs on I-95 northbound past the DE 896 and DE 1 interchanges are mentioning the closure in Pennsylvania and directing truck traffic to use I-295 to New Jersey.
I just came across this story. What a mess!
Dang this looks like the one time I-85 Collapsed in Atlanta and it was like that.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CtWdkWuAA2N/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Someone posted a video driving through the scene this morning. This seems like a complete fail on the part of the PD (whether staties or Phila Police). The fire started around 6 am and I wouldn't know who would let traffic continue to drive over the scene, whether the bridge was sagging or not.
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 11, 2023, 12:31:01 PM
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CtWdkWuAA2N/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Someone posted a video driving through the scene this morning. This seems like a complete fail on the part of the PD (whether staties or Phila Police). The fire started around 6 am and I wouldn't know who would let traffic continue to drive over the scene, whether the bridge was sagging or not.
We got used to that level of smoke over the past week anyway...
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 12:34:27 PM
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 11, 2023, 12:31:01 PM
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CtWdkWuAA2N/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Someone posted a video driving through the scene this morning. This seems like a complete fail on the part of the PD (whether staties or Phila Police). The fire started around 6 am and I wouldn't know who would let traffic continue to drive over the scene, whether the bridge was sagging or not.
We got used to that level of smoke over the past week anyway...
Not really but :-D
Do we know what time that video was shot? Looked pretty early.
We're approaching the location now. Train is crawling; they said it's because of "signal issues." Don't know whether I'll be able to see anything, but if I can I'll post whatever pictures I can manage.
Edited to add: Couldn't see enough to get pictures. Loads of emergency vehicles, and it sure looks strange to look over and see no traffic on I-95. Maybe the train issue was a signal because we sped up (but not back to full speed) before we reached the incident.
https://www.phila.gov/2023-06-11-updates-on-the-i-95-fire-and-partial-highway-collapse/ I-676, I-76, US 1, and PA 63 is being used as the detour around the closed section of I-95.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 11, 2023, 10:24:21 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
The technology you keep trying to push is only good in an ideal world, Kernals.
To be fair to Kernals12, there is a big vacant lot near the overpass where the accelerated bridge can be built. How to steer it into place is another matter, though. If the experiences of other situations apply (I-85-Atlanta, I-580 Macarthur Maze), Philly is looking at around 30 days before people are driving on the replacment.
Quote from: brad2971 on June 11, 2023, 12:52:50 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 11, 2023, 10:24:21 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
The technology you keep trying to push is only good in an ideal world, Kernals.
To be fair to Kernals12, there is a big vacant lot near the overpass where the accelerated bridge can be built. How to steer it into place is another matter, though. If the experiences of other situations apply (I-85-Atlanta, I-580 Macarthur Maze), Philly is looking at around 30 days before people are driving on the replacment.
I wonder how much sense it makes to build it on a vacant lot while actual spot would seat empty. keeping southbound traffic going may be a concern, but other than that?...
I wonder if this will lead to more thru traffic using I-295 and the NJ Turnpike to get around the collapse.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on June 11, 2023, 01:18:39 PM
I wonder if this will lead to more thru traffic using I-295 and the NJ Turnpike to get around the collapse.
As I mentioned upthread, there are VMSs along I-95 northbound in Delaware directing trucks to I-295 to New Jersey
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 01:01:34 PM
Quote from: brad2971 on June 11, 2023, 12:52:50 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 11, 2023, 10:24:21 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
The technology you keep trying to push is only good in an ideal world, Kernals.
To be fair to Kernals12, there is a big vacant lot near the overpass where the accelerated bridge can be built. How to steer it into place is another matter, though. If the experiences of other situations apply (I-85-Atlanta, I-580 Macarthur Maze), Philly is looking at around 30 days before people are driving on the replacment.
I wonder how much sense it makes to build it on a vacant lot while actual spot would seat empty. keeping southbound traffic going may be a concern, but other than that?...
Given the sagging of the other overpass, I'd guess they'll need to make significant repairs on that as well if not replace it outright also.
If I were PennDOT, I would be planning to replace the entire bridge, with a goal of having it open to traffic within two months. I-85 in Atlanta took 53 days (counting from the day the fire started?) and the I-580 connector in the MacArthur Maze took 26 days of construction.
Buttigieg has offered help, and I would be taking him at his word, since this is going to be expensive as hell. Caltrans paid an incentive of $200,000 for each day saved from the projected two-month construction period for the I-580 connector--almost $7 million just to get it open to traffic ASAP.
The missing I-95/PA Turnpike ramps between 276 to the west and 95 to the south, both from and to, might have been useful in this scenario, so 476+276 would make a useful western bypass loop
I guess the NJTP + I-95/PATP ramps do the same as the eastern bypass loop
Quote from: ilpt4u on June 11, 2023, 03:18:55 PM
The missing I-95/PA Turnpike ramps between 276 to the west and 95 to the south, both from and to, might have been useful in this scenario, so 476+276 would make a useful western bypass loop
To some extent, but Woodhaven Road serves that function too.
Over the past few decades, Caltrans also replaced two damaged freeway bridges, both in a month or so, paying HEFTY 'early completion' bonuses to the contractors.
Mike
If I didn't look at this on what took place on I-95 I would have guessed a quake took a section of freeway down like what happened in 1994 during the Northridge quake. However in this case it's a fire that melted parts of the road down though.
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/01/17/04/8588056-6597227-California_State_Route_118_in_Simi_Valley_Calif_is_seen_collapse-a-15_1547700489531.jpg)
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 11, 2023, 08:48:58 AM
https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philly-overpass-tanker/13368736/
Truck was under the overpass from northbound exit 30 to Cottman Avenue (Tacony neighborhood). Looks like this was a relatively new overpass (GSV shows it in by 2016) but I guess you can't exactly design for high temperature fires all the time.
Did anyone else initially think this was about a bridge over I-95 and not I-95 itself because the OP said overpass (terming it relative to the local road, but not specifying such in language people not from the area would get without looking at Google Maps).
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:09:45 AM
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 11, 2023, 08:48:58 AM
https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philly-overpass-tanker/13368736/
Truck was under the overpass from northbound exit 30 to Cottman Avenue (Tacony neighborhood). Looks like this was a relatively new overpass (GSV shows it in by 2016) but I guess you can't exactly design for high temperature fires all the time.
While high (and low) temperature are pretty bad for steel, and hard to design for (cough... world trade center), I have a different question about all this. I wonder if there was a reason for the driver to stop under the bridge? The only way to get where he ended up is by taking exit 30 from the highway. Stopping literally 100 feet earlier would leave the fire burn in the open; pulling another 100' forward would be a fire in the middle of an intersection...
Of course, it's possible that driver noted something in a rear view during the turn off-ramp, and didn't think much about anything else...
I believe the truck driver took the ramp too fast, hit the bridge abutment, crashed, and stopped disabled under the overpass. It wasn't a case where the truck just suddenly caught fire in mid-travel and the driver decided to abandon it under an overpass.
While many have referenced Atlanta's similar incident, Philly also had a similar collapse on 1096. I-495 in Wilmington also had a closure due to a tilting issue several years ago also. And I think I-80 in North Jersey alsohad a similar issue a number of years ago. So this area has had relative experience in dealing with extended highway closures.
https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philadelphia-i95-closed-1996-in-philly/13369393/
The best thing going for the region: numerous other highway options to get around. DelDOT is sending a poor message and should be suggesting all thru traffic use NJ's I-295 or the Turnpike; not just Truck traffic.
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 11, 2023, 11:21:20 AM
Looked at the DelDOT app and VMSs on I-95 northbound past the DE 896 and DE 1 interchanges are mentioning the closure in Pennsylvania and directing truck traffic to use I-295 to New Jersey.
Looks like Maryland is warning of the closure as far south as BWI Airport
Quote from: vdeane on June 11, 2023, 03:34:57 PMDid anyone else initially think this was about a bridge over I-95 and not I-95 itself because the OP said overpass (terming it relative to the local road, but not specifying such in language people not from the area would get without looking at Google Maps).
I didn't, because I first heard of this incident through a post on FreewayJim when doing my morning Facebook check, and the accompanying picture showed a bridge wide enough that it clearly had to be part of mainline I-95.
I've had to get used to seeing
overpass and
underpass used interchangeably since even road enthusiasts aren't necessarily aware that in engineering contexts, they have distinct meanings according to whether the cross traffic passes under or over the freeway. It's a bit like
BGS versus
large guide sign, or the old debate over whether
Super Two means a two-lane highway with shoulders or just a two-lane freeway.
Poor US 1 and I-295 and US 130...
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 11, 2023, 04:38:47 PM
Poor US 1 and I-295 and US 130...
Eh, that's honestly probably not too horribly burdened... if you are heading south on the turnpike, presumably you'd either stay on the Nj turnpike or the PA turnpike.
Quote from: famartin on June 11, 2023, 04:51:00 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 11, 2023, 04:38:47 PM
Poor US 1 and I-295 and US 130...
Eh, that's honestly probably not too horribly burdened... if you are heading south on the turnpike, presumably you'd either stay on the Nj turnpike or the PA turnpike.
Hopefully the NJTP is advertising the closure along the TP via VMS, and same for NJDOT along I-295 and other routes
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 11, 2023, 03:45:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:09:45 AM
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 11, 2023, 08:48:58 AM
https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philly-overpass-tanker/13368736/
Truck was under the overpass from northbound exit 30 to Cottman Avenue (Tacony neighborhood). Looks like this was a relatively new overpass (GSV shows it in by 2016) but I guess you can't exactly design for high temperature fires all the time.
While high (and low) temperature are pretty bad for steel, and hard to design for (cough... world trade center), I have a different question about all this. I wonder if there was a reason for the driver to stop under the bridge? The only way to get where he ended up is by taking exit 30 from the highway. Stopping literally 100 feet earlier would leave the fire burn in the open; pulling another 100' forward would be a fire in the middle of an intersection...
Of course, it's possible that driver noted something in a rear view during the turn off-ramp, and didn't think much about anything else...
I believe the truck driver took the ramp too fast, hit the bridge abutment, crashed, and stopped disabled under the overpass. It wasn't a case where the truck just suddenly caught fire in mid-travel and the driver decided to abandon it under an overpass.
Now that is the way to end trucking career!
https://www5.septa.org/bulletins/until-further-notice-septa-is-adding-extra-capacity-and-service-due-to-i-95-bridge-collapse/ SEPTA will be adding extra capacity and trains to the Trenton, West Trenton, and Fox Chase lines to help commuters affected by the closure.
The I-40 bridge in Oklahoma was 2 months and it was presumed to be extraordinarily fast. They got lucky because a vendor had a set of (prestressed concrete) beams in process for another project that was less than an inch different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-40_bridge_disaster
That is the whole thing here. Are there any steel beams that meet or exceed the requirements available to fabricate the replacements from? Once they get the steel and details cut, you can probably have them welded / drilled in a matter of weeks. A week or two to assemble them on site. Then 2-3 weeks for the concrete work. If (and that is a big IF, ) the steel to build the beam assemblies out of is readily available, you might could make this happen in 6-weeks. If the beams have to be imported or forged / extruded, you can be adding months to this project. It could be as little as 5-6 weeks, more likely 8-10 weeks or even longer if the materials are not ready.
The Hernando DeSoto Bridge repair (Memphis) took over 10 weeks in a breakneck 24-hrs process.
I would expect that both NB & SB will have to be replaced. Hopefully the damage to the adjacent spans and the bents are minimal if at all.
https://goo.gl/maps/uNprLN8HYJCDfrqW9
A GSV image of the structure. The news got it wrong. It's not Cottman Avenue proper. It's the ramp to it from I-95 NB.
Luckily steel beams can be formed pretty quickly, and being this was replaced not too long ago, as-built plans are readily available. One of their emergency contractors were probably already chosen today and this will most likely be moving quickly this week to get this project started.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 11, 2023, 06:17:34 PM
Luckily steel beams can be formed pretty quickly, and being this was replaced not too long ago, as-built plans are readily available. One of their emergency contractors were probably already chosen today and this will most likely be moving quickly this week to get this project started.
Not really. Steel delivery times are currently quite long in the area.
I suppose a premium will be made to get to the front of the line somewhere, though.
Quote from: roadman65 on June 11, 2023, 06:14:22 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/uNprLN8HYJCDfrqW9
A GSV image of the structure. The news got it wrong. It's not Cottman Avenue proper. It's the ramp to it from I-95 NB.
There's a shitload of news reports about it. Which one are you referring to? It's the Cottman Ave offramp, so any reference to Cottman Ave/PA 73/Exit 30 is close enough.
Quote from: Rothman on June 11, 2023, 06:19:17 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 11, 2023, 06:17:34 PM
Luckily steel beams can be formed pretty quickly, and being this was replaced not too long ago, as-built plans are readily available. One of their emergency contractors were probably already chosen today and this will most likely be moving quickly this week to get this project started.
Not really. Steel delivery times are currently quite long in the area.
I suppose a premium will be made to get to the front of the line somewhere, though.
Sounds a bit different from what I said. Beams can be formed quickly, correct?
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 10:49:37 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 11, 2023, 10:46:30 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:40:59 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 11, 2023, 10:24:21 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
The technology you keep trying to push is only good in an ideal world, Kernals.
(https://i.imgur.com/b3OHGKI.jpg)
Impact font memes in 2023. Sure, buddy.
Can you make it even smaller?
I can try.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 11, 2023, 06:24:30 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 11, 2023, 06:14:22 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/uNprLN8HYJCDfrqW9
A GSV image of the structure. The news got it wrong. It's not Cottman Avenue proper. It's the ramp to it from I-95 NB.
There's a shitload of news reports about it. Which one are you referring to? It's the Cottman Ave offramp, so any reference to Cottman Ave/PA 73/Exit 30 is close enough.
The one in the OP link.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 11, 2023, 10:46:30 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:40:59 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 11, 2023, 10:24:21 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
The technology you keep trying to push is only good in an ideal world, Kernals.
(https://i.imgur.com/b3OHGKI.jpg)
Impact font memes in 2023. Sure, buddy.
I'm more taken aback at kernals calling himself a clown. That's some unexpected introspectiveness.
https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philly-overpass-tanker/13368736/ Updates from 6abc, looks like the closure of I-95 will last for "several months" . Governor Shapiro plans to issue a disaster declaration tomorrow.
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 11, 2023, 08:10:39 PM
https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philly-overpass-tanker/13368736/ Updates from 6abc, looks like the closure of I-95 will last for "several months" \. Governor Shapiro plans to issue a disaster declaration tomorrow.
As did the 1996 closure.
Philly is a bastion of organized labor. As the poster of post #8 of https://www.city-data.com/forum/philadelphia/3423857-portion-interstate-95-collapses-philadelphia-after.html suggests... well, this repair might get d r a w n out.
OTOH Georgia is IIRC a RTW state. Did that help expedite the I-85 repair process?
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:40:25 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 11, 2023, 09:37:55 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:35:19 AM
Quote from: 1 on June 11, 2023, 09:16:13 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:09:45 AM
and hard to design for (cough... world trade center)
Almost nothing can be designed for someone intentionally trying to destroy it. The World Trade Center in particular was designed to survive accidental hits for those intending to land at an airport in New York but encountering too much fog (i.e. fuel almost empty).
This tanker fire wasn't intentional, but it collapsed anyway.
If you will, a very tangential argument would be that WTC steel had fire protection, while road bridges steel usually doesn't. I suspect cost (primarily extra weight of the structure) vs benefit (one accident in decade?) would likely be on a wrong side...
WTC also used asbestos. I wonder if people would approve of DOTs spraying all their bridges with the stuff. :D
As far as I understand, today they are still spraying concrete on steel - and I would think without asbestos. Not sure if there are any other additives like mineral fiber, but asbestos is definitely not there.
Asbestos abatement is called for in a number of Kentucky's bridge replacement projects.
Quote from: ixnay on June 11, 2023, 08:18:16 PM
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 11, 2023, 08:10:39 PM
https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philly-overpass-tanker/13368736/ Updates from 6abc, looks like the closure of I-95 will last for "several months" . Governor Shapiro plans to issue a disaster declaration tomorrow.
As did the 1996 closure.
Philly is a bastion of organized labor. As the poster of post #8 of https://www.city-data.com/forum/philadelphia/3423857-portion-interstate-95-collapses-philadelphia-after.html suggests... well, this repair might get d r a w n out.
OTOH Georgia is IIRC a RTW state. Did that help expedite the I-85 repair process?
I'm sure federal prevailing wage requirements will be in effect for this project, even though the truck's insurance company will ultimately be responsible for the costs.
Quote from: hbelkins on June 11, 2023, 08:24:54 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:40:25 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 11, 2023, 09:37:55 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:35:19 AM
Quote from: 1 on June 11, 2023, 09:16:13 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2023, 09:09:45 AM
and hard to design for (cough... world trade center)
Almost nothing can be designed for someone intentionally trying to destroy it. The World Trade Center in particular was designed to survive accidental hits for those intending to land at an airport in New York but encountering too much fog (i.e. fuel almost empty).
This tanker fire wasn't intentional, but it collapsed anyway.
If you will, a very tangential argument would be that WTC steel had fire protection, while road bridges steel usually doesn't. I suspect cost (primarily extra weight of the structure) vs benefit (one accident in decade?) would likely be on a wrong side...
WTC also used asbestos. I wonder if people would approve of DOTs spraying all their bridges with the stuff. :D
As far as I understand, today they are still spraying concrete on steel - and I would think without asbestos. Not sure if there are any other additives like mineral fiber, but asbestos is definitely not there.
Asbestos abatement is called for in a number of Kentucky's bridge replacement projects.
Quote from: ixnay on June 11, 2023, 08:18:16 PM
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 11, 2023, 08:10:39 PM
https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philly-overpass-tanker/13368736/ Updates from 6abc, looks like the closure of I-95 will last for "several months" . Governor Shapiro plans to issue a disaster declaration tomorrow.
As did the 1996 closure.
Philly is a bastion of organized labor. As the poster of post #8 of https://www.city-data.com/forum/philadelphia/3423857-portion-interstate-95-collapses-philadelphia-after.html suggests... well, this repair might get d r a w n out.
OTOH Georgia is IIRC a RTW state. Did that help expedite the I-85 repair process?
I'm sure federal prevailing wage requirements will be in effect for this project, even though the truck's insurance company will ultimately be responsible for the costs.
Is the abatement needed for coating of the steel or due to utility lines running along the bridge?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 11, 2023, 06:25:10 PM
Sounds a bit different from what I said. Beams can be formed quickly, correct?
Yes, but....
You have to have the ingots in an alloy that meets or exceeds the requirement. You have to tool the extruder or forge to make the correct size and configuration of beam. If you had proper ingots in the soaking oven you could PROBABLy have the beams in a week, less if you don't worry about quality checks. Our US capacity to make large beam stock domestically is literally 25% of what it was in the 1970's. Imported steel has riddled the US Steel industry. Until the 1980's you could have had the material needed custom manufactured at either Port Arthur Texas or Bethlehem PA. Most of the Beam stock made in the US today is from Nucor. It has neither the capacity nor the flexibility that the legacy US plants would have had.
I would suggest a minimum of a month if everything goes smoothly. I might suggest one "perhaps", . If the state of PA uses a standardized or generic beam stock for lots of different bridges, they may have either stock or manufacturer's reserve and the bare beams will not have to be manufactured.
Then there are details that have to be fabricated and attached to the beams. After you finally get the beams installed ,then you have to start work on the concrete. First the deck, then the barriers. Eventually you have to stripe it and get it ready.
EVEN if the correct beams are available in the USA, you are still looking at 6-8 weeks if construction starts tomorrow.
Notice that not a single person has said "oh, if we only had the green detour route signage to follow to get around the collapse". Biggest waste of signage in PA.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 11, 2023, 11:57:47 PM
Notice that not a single person has said "oh, if we only had the green detour route signage to follow to get around the collapse". Biggest waste of signage in PA.
Those color-coded detour routes are better suited to short-term incidents where a quick detour onto nearby parallel surface roads would suffice. However, a long-term detour onto such roads would strain the local road network and more planning is needed to establish detours onto roads better suited to handle the traffic volume for an extended closure. As mentioned in this thread, there are many alternate routes to I-95 for both local and long-distance traffic.
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 12, 2023, 12:05:30 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 11, 2023, 11:57:47 PM
Notice that not a single person has said "oh, if we only had the green detour route signage to follow to get around the collapse". Biggest waste of signage in PA.
Those color-coded detour routes are better suited to short-term incidents where a quick detour onto nearby parallel surface roads would suffice. However, a long-term detour onto such roads would strain the local road network and more planning is needed to establish detours onto roads better suited to handle the traffic volume for an extended closure. As mentioned in this thread, there are many alternate routes to I-95 for both local and long-distance traffic.
The point is, they've never once been mentioned. And good luck finding any situation anywhere in the state where they've been used.
Well Michigan shuts down freeways on purpose to replace bridges. If the Detroit area gets by without I-75, I'm sure Philly can handle it.
Quote from: ilpt4u on June 11, 2023, 05:07:10 PM
Quote from: famartin on June 11, 2023, 04:51:00 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 11, 2023, 04:38:47 PM
Poor US 1 and I-295 and US 130...
Eh, that's honestly probably not too horribly burdened... if you are heading south on the turnpike, presumably you'd either stay on the Nj turnpike or the PA turnpike.
Hopefully the NJTP is advertising the closure along the TP via VMS, and same for NJDOT along I-295 and other routes
NJDOT had messages on the signs on 287 in the Middlesex/Somerset area today. I'll bet they'll have them on every sign on every major roadway for a while.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 12, 2023, 01:15:58 AM
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 12, 2023, 12:05:30 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 11, 2023, 11:57:47 PM
Notice that not a single person has said "oh, if we only had the green detour route signage to follow to get around the collapse". Biggest waste of signage in PA.
Those color-coded detour routes are better suited to short-term incidents where a quick detour onto nearby parallel surface roads would suffice. However, a long-term detour onto such roads would strain the local road network and more planning is needed to establish detours onto roads better suited to handle the traffic volume for an extended closure. As mentioned in this thread, there are many alternate routes to I-95 for both local and long-distance traffic.
The point is, they've never once been mentioned. And good luck finding any situation anywhere in the state where they've been used.
The only time I saw it used was in 2015 or so when I was heading south on I-81, and it was closed for an incident south of PA 233 (Exit 37).
Quote from: roadman65 on June 12, 2023, 01:55:59 AM
Well Michigan shuts down freeways on purpose to replace bridges. If the Detroit area gets by without I-75, I'm sure Philly can handle it.
When has I-75 (or any other urban freeway in Michigan) been shut down for more than a weekend or few days?
I've seen it on GSV with someone on here pointing out it's the norm.
Looks like SEPTA has robbed Peter (on the Cynwyd Line) to pay Paul (added service on the Trenton Line).
https://www5.septa.org/bulletins/until-further-notice-septa-is-adding-extra-capacity-and-service-due-to-i-95-bridge-collapse/
The conspiracy theories about this incident are running wild.
"Why can't you see any signs of a truck in the pictures?" is one of my favorites.
Personally, if I was going to take out a major freeway, I don't think I'd pick I-95 in Philadelphia as the spot to do it.
Quote from: hbelkins on June 12, 2023, 12:47:07 PM
The conspiracy theories about this incident are running wild.
"Why can't you see any signs of a truck in the pictures?" is one of my favorites.
Personally, if I was going to take out a major freeway, I don't think I'd pick I-95 in Philadelphia as the spot to do it.
Seems I've finally manipulated my social feeds' algorithms to keep me blissfully ignorant of the political fringes' nuttiness.
Quote from: GaryV on June 12, 2023, 06:41:40 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 12, 2023, 01:55:59 AM
Well Michigan shuts down freeways on purpose to replace bridges. If the Detroit area gets by without I-75, I'm sure Philly can handle it.
When has I-75 (or any other urban freeway in Michigan) been shut down for more than a weekend or few days?
In the metro Detroit area, just off the top of my head:
- Reconstruction of I-75 between I-96 and I-94
- Reconstruction of I-75 at the Ambassador Bridge (closed for two years)
- Redecking of the I-75 Rouge River bridge and additional bridge projects south of there (southbound closed for two years)
- Reconstruction of M-10 in 2006 and 2007
- Reconstruction of I-96 between US-24 and I-275 in 2014
- Reconstruction of M-39 between McNichols Road and M-10
- Reconstruction of I-275 between M-14 and I-696 (one side closed, then the other, each for about three months)
- Reconstruction of I-696 between Dequindre Road and I-94 (westbound closed for the year)
The issue is what alternate routes exist. MDOT has shut down metro Detroit freeways when there were at least half-decent alternatives (M-5, M-102, I-275, US-24). I don't know what the Philly road network has.
Looking at Google Maps right now (3:25 EDT) -
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Philadelphia,+PA/@40.016757,-75.4023839,10z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x89c6b7d8d4b54beb:0x89f514d88c3e58c1!8m2!3d39.9525839!4d-75.1652215!16zL20vMGRjbGc!5m1!1e1?entry=ttu
Congestion is present on the Schuylkill (but when isn't it) and on the southern half and northern third of the Blue Route.
Also seeing traffic on PA 291 north of the airport towards the Schuylkill, and on US 1/US 13 in North Philadelphia.
https://6abc.com/i-95-collapsed-in-philadelphia-fire-overpass/13371656/ Update, the remains of the truck driver were found this morning and the driver was identified.
Quote from: TheStranger on June 12, 2023, 03:31:12 PM
Looking at Google Maps right now (3:25 EDT) -
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Philadelphia,+PA/@40.016757,-75.4023839,10z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x89c6b7d8d4b54beb:0x89f514d88c3e58c1!8m2!3d39.9525839!4d-75.1652215!16zL20vMGRjbGc!5m1!1e1?entry=ttu
Congestion is present on the Schuylkill (but when isn't it) and on the southern half and northern third of the Blue Route.
Also seeing traffic on PA 291 north of the airport towards the Schuylkill, and on US 1/US 13 in North Philadelphia.
There's also currently a major thunderstorm moving through the Philly area, so that's going to slow traffic down, even on the best of days.
Quote from: ixnay on June 12, 2023, 08:08:05 AM
Looks like SEPTA has robbed Peter (on the Cynwyd Line) to pay Paul (added service on the Trenton Line).
https://www5.septa.org/bulletins/until-further-notice-septa-is-adding-extra-capacity-and-service-due-to-i-95-bridge-collapse/
SEPTA only has so many resources in terms of staff and equipment, so it makes sense to reallocate staff and equipment from its least used line which can easily be substituted with buses and move them over to a line that's obviously gonna see increased ridership from the closure of I-95.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 12, 2023, 02:22:55 PMThe issue is what alternate routes exist. MDOT has shut down metro Detroit freeways when there were at least half-decent alternatives (M-5, M-102, I-275, US-24). I don't know what the Philly road network has.
There are good alternate routes for long-distance traffic--I can think of at least three (NJTP, I-295, I-81) that have full control of access. Local drivers have few and unattractive options, but then their expectations of mobility by car are going to be significantly less than in Detroit. PennDOT's recommended detour route includes segments of surface road along Roosevelt Boulevard (US 1).
Current PennDOT website on this: https://www.penndot.pa.gov/RegionalOffices/district-6/Pages/AlertDetails.aspx
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 12, 2023, 03:36:15 PM
https://6abc.com/i-95-collapsed-in-philadelphia-fire-overpass/13371656/ Update, the remains of the truck driver were found this morning and the driver was identified.
Interesting quote here from the WPVI article:
QuoteThe American Trucking Association says the disruptions caused by the collapse of I-95 are "likely to have significant impacts on the supply chain."
A spokesperson for the trade group said roughly eight to nine percent of vehicles that pass through that portion of the highway are commercial trucks.
"Those vehicles are now subject to more than 40 miles of detour, a detour that is mostly non-interstate highway with more than 60 traffic lights," the spokesperson said. "This will add significant cost in time, fuel and delays so we urge state and federal agencies to target appropriate resources to repairing and replacing this highway as quickly as possible.
Is this a reference to US 1/US 13?
In theory, some of those trying to head to the northeast suburbs could do so via NJTP/I-195/NJ 29/US 1, or I-295.
---
With regards to the overpass itself: Is there any damage to the southbound carriageway as well? Has PennDOT considered running both directions on that carriageway as a band-aid solution?
QuoteWith regards to the overpass itself: Is there any damage to the southbound carriageway as well? Has PennDOT considered running both directions on that carriageway as a band-aid solution?
Yes, southbound is considered unstable at the moment.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on June 12, 2023, 04:06:59 PM
QuoteWith regards to the overpass itself: Is there any damage to the southbound carriageway as well? Has PennDOT considered running both directions on that carriageway as a band-aid solution?
Yes, southbound is considered unstable at the moment.
The SB bridge has been declared a total loss and will be demolished this week as well, per reports via the Philly Inquirer.
Quote from: TheStranger on June 12, 2023, 04:03:44 PM
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 12, 2023, 03:36:15 PM
https://6abc.com/i-95-collapsed-in-philadelphia-fire-overpass/13371656/ Update, the remains of the truck driver were found this morning and the driver was identified.
Interesting quote here from the WPVI article:
QuoteThe American Trucking Association says the disruptions caused by the collapse of I-95 are "likely to have significant impacts on the supply chain."
A spokesperson for the trade group said roughly eight to nine percent of vehicles that pass through that portion of the highway are commercial trucks.
"Those vehicles are now subject to more than 40 miles of detour, a detour that is mostly non-interstate highway with more than 60 traffic lights," the spokesperson said. "This will add significant cost in time, fuel and delays so we urge state and federal agencies to target appropriate resources to repairing and replacing this highway as quickly as possible.
Is this a reference to US 1/US 13?
Heh. "Supply Chain Issues". We're talking a detour and traffic delay. Not a shortage of raw materials.
I have no idea what "40 miles of detour" they could be referring to, especially in conjunction with 60 traffic lights. I certainly get the 60 traffic lights; Philly has a ton of them at every block, so if a trucker was taking a parallel detour route, they would hit a lot of them, and that would potentially incur some extra fuel costs as a result (albeit offset by their slower speeds). But the detour would cost them just a few extra miles, not 40. If the detour involves US 1, yeah that's not interstate highway but that's not 40 miles either or 60 traffic lights, and they meet up with Interstates on both ends. If they're taking a 40 mile detour, then they're bypassing the area, again just adding a few miles to their net trip compared to have taken 95.
The quote appears to be intentionally vague so we don't really know what exaggeration they're trying to convey here.
Quoting Benjamin Franklin, who once stood at the base of his bridge flying a kite, saying "I'm in pursuit of life, liberty, and a congestion free ride on 95", local truckers in the area just have to figure out their new routine. Long-distance haulers need to know to use whatever route keeps them away from 95 best. Hopefully the Truckers' Association is helping them with that.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 12, 2023, 05:03:34 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on June 12, 2023, 04:03:44 PM
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 12, 2023, 03:36:15 PM
https://6abc.com/i-95-collapsed-in-philadelphia-fire-overpass/13371656/ Update, the remains of the truck driver were found this morning and the driver was identified.
Interesting quote here from the WPVI article:
QuoteThe American Trucking Association says the disruptions caused by the collapse of I-95 are "likely to have significant impacts on the supply chain."
A spokesperson for the trade group said roughly eight to nine percent of vehicles that pass through that portion of the highway are commercial trucks.
"Those vehicles are now subject to more than 40 miles of detour, a detour that is mostly non-interstate highway with more than 60 traffic lights," the spokesperson said. "This will add significant cost in time, fuel and delays so we urge state and federal agencies to target appropriate resources to repairing and replacing this highway as quickly as possible.
Is this a reference to US 1/US 13?
Heh. "Supply Chain Issues". We're talking a detour and traffic delay. Not a shortage of raw materials.
I have no idea what "40 miles of detour" they could be referring to, especially in conjunction with 60 traffic lights. I certainly get the 60 traffic lights; Philly has a ton of them at every block, so if a trucker was taking a parallel detour route, they would hit a lot of them, and that would potentially incur some extra fuel costs as a result (albeit offset by their slower speeds). But the detour would cost them just a few extra miles, not 40. If the detour involves US 1, yeah that's not interstate highway but that's not 40 miles either or 60 traffic lights, and they meet up with Interstates on both ends. If they're taking a 40 mile detour, then they're bypassing the area, again just adding a few miles to their net trip compared to have taken 95.
The quote appears to be intentionally vague so we don't really know what exaggeration they're trying to convey here.
Quoting Benjamin Franklin, who once stood at the base of his bridge flying a kite, saying "I'm in pursuit of life, liberty, and a congestion free ride on 95", local truckers in the area just have to figure out their new routine. Long-distance haulers need to know to use whatever route keeps them away from 95 best. Hopefully the Truckers' Association is helping them with that.
I wonder if trucking interests are really worried about the alternate routes that will require tolls, especially heading into PA on the bridges or around the city altogether on 295 or the NJTP.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on June 12, 2023, 07:41:09 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 12, 2023, 05:03:34 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on June 12, 2023, 04:03:44 PM
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 12, 2023, 03:36:15 PM
https://6abc.com/i-95-collapsed-in-philadelphia-fire-overpass/13371656/ Update, the remains of the truck driver were found this morning and the driver was identified.
Interesting quote here from the WPVI article:
QuoteThe American Trucking Association says the disruptions caused by the collapse of I-95 are "likely to have significant impacts on the supply chain."
A spokesperson for the trade group said roughly eight to nine percent of vehicles that pass through that portion of the highway are commercial trucks.
"Those vehicles are now subject to more than 40 miles of detour, a detour that is mostly non-interstate highway with more than 60 traffic lights," the spokesperson said. "This will add significant cost in time, fuel and delays so we urge state and federal agencies to target appropriate resources to repairing and replacing this highway as quickly as possible.
Is this a reference to US 1/US 13?
Heh. "Supply Chain Issues". We're talking a detour and traffic delay. Not a shortage of raw materials.
I have no idea what "40 miles of detour" they could be referring to, especially in conjunction with 60 traffic lights. I certainly get the 60 traffic lights; Philly has a ton of them at every block, so if a trucker was taking a parallel detour route, they would hit a lot of them, and that would potentially incur some extra fuel costs as a result (albeit offset by their slower speeds). But the detour would cost them just a few extra miles, not 40. If the detour involves US 1, yeah that's not interstate highway but that's not 40 miles either or 60 traffic lights, and they meet up with Interstates on both ends. If they're taking a 40 mile detour, then they're bypassing the area, again just adding a few miles to their net trip compared to have taken 95.
The quote appears to be intentionally vague so we don't really know what exaggeration they're trying to convey here.
Quoting Benjamin Franklin, who once stood at the base of his bridge flying a kite, saying "I'm in pursuit of life, liberty, and a congestion free ride on 95", local truckers in the area just have to figure out their new routine. Long-distance haulers need to know to use whatever route keeps them away from 95 best. Hopefully the Truckers' Association is helping them with that.
I wonder if trucking interests are really worried about the alternate routes that will require tolls, especially heading into PA on the bridges or around the city altogether on 295 or the NJTP.
With many contracts probably already signed, those tolls and extra miles/hours come mostly out of pocket for truckers.
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
No. ABC will still take a few weeks to get a temporary span up. They have to clear the site, assess the abutments, and repair those before anything can go up.
Oh, and traffic today? Worst backups were on I-76. That tells you what locals are doing. I-295 is already used by traffic not accessing Philly, so there's relatively little through traffic to detour. It's all gonna come from somewhere else, and that's the winner.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on June 12, 2023, 07:41:09 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 12, 2023, 05:03:34 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on June 12, 2023, 04:03:44 PM
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 12, 2023, 03:36:15 PM
https://6abc.com/i-95-collapsed-in-philadelphia-fire-overpass/13371656/ Update, the remains of the truck driver were found this morning and the driver was identified.
Interesting quote here from the WPVI article:
QuoteThe American Trucking Association says the disruptions caused by the collapse of I-95 are "likely to have significant impacts on the supply chain."
A spokesperson for the trade group said roughly eight to nine percent of vehicles that pass through that portion of the highway are commercial trucks.
"Those vehicles are now subject to more than 40 miles of detour, a detour that is mostly non-interstate highway with more than 60 traffic lights," the spokesperson said. "This will add significant cost in time, fuel and delays so we urge state and federal agencies to target appropriate resources to repairing and replacing this highway as quickly as possible.
Is this a reference to US 1/US 13?
Heh. "Supply Chain Issues". We're talking a detour and traffic delay. Not a shortage of raw materials.
I have no idea what "40 miles of detour" they could be referring to, especially in conjunction with 60 traffic lights. I certainly get the 60 traffic lights; Philly has a ton of them at every block, so if a trucker was taking a parallel detour route, they would hit a lot of them, and that would potentially incur some extra fuel costs as a result (albeit offset by their slower speeds). But the detour would cost them just a few extra miles, not 40. If the detour involves US 1, yeah that's not interstate highway but that's not 40 miles either or 60 traffic lights, and they meet up with Interstates on both ends. If they're taking a 40 mile detour, then they're bypassing the area, again just adding a few miles to their net trip compared to have taken 95.
The quote appears to be intentionally vague so we don't really know what exaggeration they're trying to convey here.
Quoting Benjamin Franklin, who once stood at the base of his bridge flying a kite, saying "I'm in pursuit of life, liberty, and a congestion free ride on 95", local truckers in the area just have to figure out their new routine. Long-distance haulers need to know to use whatever route keeps them away from 95 best. Hopefully the Truckers' Association is helping them with that.
I wonder if trucking interests are really worried about the alternate routes that will require tolls, especially heading into PA on the bridges or around the city altogether on 295 or the NJTP.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Turnpike were to waive the tolls for the southernmost section between the Delaware Memorial Bridge and where I-95 comes in at Exit 6.
Quote from: KCRoadFan on June 12, 2023, 09:00:48 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if the Turnpike were to waive the tolls for the southernmost section between the Delaware Memorial Bridge and where I-95 comes in at Exit 6.
If there's any guarantees in life, one of them would be that won't be happening.
First - This isn't the NJ Turnpike's problem.
Second - there's the freebee I-295 right next door.
Third - Even today, the NJ Turnpike is the main route for thru traffic from Delaware and points south to North Jersey and points North, which continues to be the shortest and fastest route for thru traffic nearly all of the time. Strictly following I-95, which has only been possibly for fewer than 5 years, is slower in speed, longer in miles, and generally more congested. For SB travel, there's barely a toll savings. For NB travel, there's a minor toll savings. And due to the mentioned disadvantages, any savings in tolls is generally eaten up by those losses.
The only way the NJTP would be toll-free from Southpoint to Exit 6 is if someone is paying for it...be it USDOT/FHWA, PennDOT/PA, etc. I don't see that happening
The Turnpike Authority isn't going to offer free rides because "free" I-95 thru Philly is broken
I do think this scenario highlights that the NJTP between I-295 and Exit 6 really should be made a formal part of the Interstate Highway System and designated as such. An I-95E or I-895 (or other available even 3di) designation/shield would get the job done. That said, the Turnpike has not shown any interest in seeking the I-shield south of Exit 6 that I'm aware of.
Cue in Randy Newman's Burn On, and sub in "Philly" for "Cleveland".
"There's a yellow sun rising/On the Delaware Expressway/Rolling into Philly by the tracks (x2)
There's an oil truck traveling/Up the Delaware Expressway/Rolling into Philly by the tracks (x2)
Philly, city of light, city of magic/Philly, city of light, you're calling me
Philly, even now I can remember/'Cause the Delaware Expressway goes smokin' through my dreams
Burn on, big highway, burn on/Burn on, big highway, burn on
Now the Lord can make you tumble/Lord can make you turn
The Lord can make you back up/But the Lord can't make you burn
Burn on, big highway, burn on/Burn on, big highway, burn on"
This is a huge blow to the nation's busiest Interstate, with most traffic now forced into NJ, on the other side of the river. Although I'm worried that it will take several months to repair, as has been mentioned many times in this thread, hopefully a quick replacement can be made, like there was on I-85 in Atlanta.
(My sincere apologies to Mr. Newman)
Quote from: ilpt4u on June 12, 2023, 09:59:48 PM
The only way the NJTP would be toll-free from Southpoint to Exit 6 is if someone is paying for it...be it USDOT/FHWA, PennDOT/PA, etc. I don't see that happening
The Turnpike Authority isn't going to offer free rides because "free" I-95 thru Philly is broken
I do thing this scenario highlights that the NJTP between I-295 and Exit 6 really should be made a formal part of the Interstate Highway System and designated as such. An I-95E or I-895 (or other available even 3di) designation/shield would get the job done. That said, the Turnpike has not shown any interest in seeking the I-shield south of Exit 6 that I'm aware of.
I don't think designating the southern part of the NJTP an Interstate will really change traffic habits. Although it would make sense to incorporate it into the Interstate Highway System.
It makes sense to incorporate, but NJ Turnpike officials and the state, have no intention of expanding the existing interstate network in New Jersey hence I-76 ending in Bellmawr or NJ 24 existing today as a state route.
Question, will this impact NJTP traffic, or long distance NY to DC?
I would think no, that I-295 would have more issues, but wanted to check.
Eerily similar thing happened on I-95 in Bridgeport CT nearly 20 years ago. A tanker caught fire and melted the steel beams just like this case. I think ConnDOT had a temporary bridge installed within a week or two until they could reconstruct the melted overpass.
Quote from: bluecountry on June 13, 2023, 07:25:37 AM
Question, will this impact NJTP traffic, or long distance NY to DC?
I would think no, that I-295 would have more issues, but wanted to check.
I mean, there may be some slightly increased traffic on the southern portion that's still only 4 lanes, which may result in slightly more congestion during peak weekends, but other than that I wouldn't imagine it would have any significant impact.
Most long-distance traffic is using the Turnpike to bypass Philadelphia already.
Anecdotally I'm hearing truck traffic is much heavier on I-476 and there are additional delays at the I-95 interchange
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 13, 2023, 09:12:13 AM
Anecdotally I'm hearing truck traffic is much heavier on I-476 and there are additional delays at the I-95 interchange
I'm assuming the increased traffic on I-476 is south of I-276?
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 13, 2023, 09:15:05 AM
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 13, 2023, 09:12:13 AM
Anecdotally I'm hearing truck traffic is much heavier on I-476 and there are additional delays at the I-95 interchange
I'm assuming the increased traffic on I-476 is south of I-276?
Traffic is generally heavy south of the Turnpike. I'd imagine the 4 lane section south of US 1 will probably suffer a lot from this closure.
You can thank the NIMBYs for that four-lane section of 476.
I just wonder about access to/from the Betsy Ross and Tacony-Palmyra bridges on the Pennsylvania side. With no I-95 to access, is that traffic using city streets?
So here's my trip report for this morning, leaving my house about 6:50am and traveling north on 295 towards Trenton:
I-295 was appreciably heavier (and other coworkers noted that as well), but notably I mostly saw Jersey tags. Also noticed when I drove over I-76 that congestion was down on that road. So the immediate conclusion...Jersey traffic just staying on the Jersey side of the river going up 295 and finding another bridge to cross, rather than taling the Walt Whitman (I-76) or Ben Franklin (I-676) Bridges into Philly then taking 95 to NE Philly and points North. No exit off of 295 was noticeable heavier with traffic, meaning traffic was scattering based on where they needed to go, taking one of the many other bridges further north. Always going to be some PA cars in the mix on 295 in NJ, but nothing out of the ordinary.
VMS signage on several signs on 295:
I-95 CLOSED IN NORTHEAST PHILADELPHIA;
FOLLOW DETOUR BETWEEN EXITS 22 AND 35
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 13, 2023, 09:15:05 AM
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 13, 2023, 09:12:13 AM
Anecdotally I'm hearing truck traffic is much heavier on I-476 and there are additional delays at the I-95 interchange
I'm assuming the increased traffic on I-476 is south of I-276?
Southbound was appreciably heavier in the spot around US 1 late this morning (normally doesn't back up at that time of day - more akin to a weekend) and again near I-95 (where a cop was on the shoulder with a disabled vehicle). Northbound wasn't nearly as bad.
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 13, 2023, 12:23:32 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 13, 2023, 09:15:05 AM
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 13, 2023, 09:12:13 AM
Anecdotally I'm hearing truck traffic is much heavier on I-476 and there are additional delays at the I-95 interchange
I'm assuming the increased traffic on I-476 is south of I-276?
Southbound was appreciably heavier in the spot around US 1 late this morning (normally doesn't back up at that time of day - more akin to a weekend) and again near I-95 (where a cop was on the shoulder with a disabled vehicle). Northbound wasn't nearly as bad.
IIRC, the Blue Route (I-476) narrows from three to two lanes southbound at US 1.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on June 13, 2023, 01:05:46 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 13, 2023, 12:23:32 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 13, 2023, 09:15:05 AM
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 13, 2023, 09:12:13 AM
Anecdotally I'm hearing truck traffic is much heavier on I-476 and there are additional delays at the I-95 interchange
I'm assuming the increased traffic on I-476 is south of I-276?
Southbound was appreciably heavier in the spot around US 1 late this morning (normally doesn't back up at that time of day - more akin to a weekend) and again near I-95 (where a cop was on the shoulder with a disabled vehicle). Northbound wasn't nearly as bad.
IIRC, the Blue Route (I-476) narrows from three to two lanes southbound at US 1.
I-476 narrows to two lanes southbound past the PA 3 exit, but there is briefly a third southbound truck lane along a stretch between the PA 3 and US 1 interchanges
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 12, 2023, 10:19:21 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on June 12, 2023, 09:59:48 PM
The only way the NJTP would be toll-free from Southpoint to Exit 6 is if someone is paying for it...be it USDOT/FHWA, PennDOT/PA, etc. I don't see that happening
The Turnpike Authority isn't going to offer free rides because "free" I-95 thru Philly is broken
I do thing this scenario highlights that the NJTP between I-295 and Exit 6 really should be made a formal part of the Interstate Highway System and designated as such. An I-95E or I-895 (or other available even 3di) designation/shield would get the job done. That said, the Turnpike has not shown any interest in seeking the I-shield south of Exit 6 that I'm aware of.
I don't think designating the southern part of the NJTP an Interstate will really change traffic habits. Although it would make sense to incorporate it into the Interstate Highway System.
Given that the most popular thru route involving taking I-295 across the DE Memorial Bridge and then NJTP, I would re-route I-95 along that route and designate the existing stretch of I-95 through Wilmington and Pennsylvania as I-895.
It isn't politically feasible since PA wouldn't want to lose I-95 but it would be consistent with everyone's driving patterns.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on June 13, 2023, 01:39:46 PM
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 12, 2023, 10:19:21 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on June 12, 2023, 09:59:48 PM
The only way the NJTP would be toll-free from Southpoint to Exit 6 is if someone is paying for it...be it USDOT/FHWA, PennDOT/PA, etc. I don't see that happening
The Turnpike Authority isn't going to offer free rides because "free" I-95 thru Philly is broken
I do thing this scenario highlights that the NJTP between I-295 and Exit 6 really should be made a formal part of the Interstate Highway System and designated as such. An I-95E or I-895 (or other available even 3di) designation/shield would get the job done. That said, the Turnpike has not shown any interest in seeking the I-shield south of Exit 6 that I'm aware of.
I don't think designating the southern part of the NJTP an Interstate will really change traffic habits. Although it would make sense to incorporate it into the Interstate Highway System.
Given that the most popular thru route involving taking I-295 across the DE Memorial Bridge and then NJTP, I would re-route I-95 along that route and designate the existing stretch of I-95 through Wilmington and Pennsylvania as I-895.
It isn't politically feasible since PA wouldn't want to lose I-95 but it would be consistent with everyone's driving patterns.
Yeah there is no way Philadelphia or Pennsylvania officials would want to lose the I-95 designation. Motorists should understand the logic of 3-digit Interstate bypasses, not to mention GPSs would take them the best way regardless of route number.
We're getting into kooky territory now.
Now, I want a cookie..
The Interstate 95 designation is not going anywhere. Any rerouting of Interstate 95 between Wilmington, DE and New York City, NY is Fictional Highways material (although I wouldn't oppose renumbering the New Jersey Turnpike between Interstate 295 and Interstate 95 at Exit 6 to either 695 or 895).
Quote from: Rothman on June 13, 2023, 01:46:14 PM
We're getting into kooky territory now.
Now, I want a cookie..
Combine the two:
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wheeloffortunehistory/images/5/57/EddByrnes.jpg)
"A-E-I-O-U, A-E-I-O-U"
(one of two reasons why Edd Byrnes is not in contention to replace Pat Sajak once he retires next year)
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 11, 2023, 10:46:30 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:40:59 AM
Impact font memes in 2023. Sure, buddy.
(https://www.bloomfieldknoble.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Buzz-300x227.png)
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 11, 2023, 04:22:35 PM
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 11, 2023, 11:21:20 AM
Looked at the DelDOT app and VMSs on I-95 northbound past the DE 896 and DE 1 interchanges are mentioning the closure in Pennsylvania and directing truck traffic to use I-295 to New Jersey.
Looks like Maryland is warning of the closure as far south as BWI Airport
Got a picture of one of the VMS's on I-95 "between the beltways" warning of the closure while out doing field work today. The photo below is a relatively new VMS just north of exit 38, but the VMS's by the rest area between exits 35 & 38 and between exits 47 & 49 were showing the same message:
(https://i.imgur.com/kfYUpAx.jpg)
The bottom line of the sign was alternating between "USE ALT ROUTES" (as shown) & "ALL LANES CLOSED".
This reminds me a lot of the tanker fire accident on I-65 @ I-20/59 back in 2002 (this interchange would have a similar accident 2 years later on a different bridge). This new bridge opened 53 days after the accident.
The bridge on I-75 @ US 301 was rebuilt in a few weeks after a tanker fire back in 2008.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 11, 2023, 02:05:29 PM
I-85 in Atlanta took 53 days (counting from the day the fire started?)
Quote from: jdb1234 on June 13, 2023, 04:37:52 PM
This reminds me a lot of the tanker fire accident on I-65 @ I-20/59 back in 2002 (this interchange would have a similar accident 2 years later on a different bridge). This new bridge opened 53 days after the accident.
Weird coincidence.
So my commute home on I-295 in NJ (from about 4:15 to 5:05pm): It was oddly fast for a while...we were traveling over 80 mph for a bit which was unusual for an afternoon rush hour. A crash near NJ 38 had 2 lanes closed before I got there, however that was cleared a bit before I got to that point. But...I was then in the ensuing 'wave' of packed traffic that didn't break up until about 6 miles later. Traffic jammed again around US 30 for about 3 miles into the I-76/NJ 42 interchange, which was less than normal. Normally, there's a 10 mile backup from NJ 73 to the I-76/NJ 42 Interchange. Overall, my total commute time was actually a little shorter than normal, but the crash did mix things up a bit.
So, overall, at least on the Jersey side, from what I saw and heard from co-workers: Heavier than Monday, which makes sense as a lot of people are working Mondays and Fridays from home still as a lasting change from the pandemic. Jersey residents working in Northeast Philly and Bucks County have adjusted their commutes to use 295 in Jersey rather than 95 in PA.
This is just a 1 day review...people will eventually settle on their "new norm" in the coming week or two until the overpasses are reopened. And to be fair...a lot can happen 5 or 10 minutes. If I was stuck in that traffic due to the crash, my review would probably sound different. If I happen to have had a PA tagged car in front of and behind me, I'd think the road was full of Philly vehicles escaping PA. But a common theme certainly was traffic was clearly heavier, jammed in a few areas it normally wouldn't be jammed in (especially in the morning) but overall still moving fairly well, mostly at highway speeds.
Quote from: kphoger on June 13, 2023, 04:45:21 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 11, 2023, 02:05:29 PM
I-85 in Atlanta took 53 days (counting from the day the fire started?)
Quote from: jdb1234 on June 13, 2023, 04:37:52 PM
This reminds me a lot of the tanker fire accident on I-65 @ I-20/59 back in 2002 (this interchange would have a similar accident 2 years later on a different bridge). This new bridge opened 53 days after the accident.
Weird coincidence.
It sets a solid expectation at least. Not to anyone outside this forum of course.
Can confirm as of yesterday morning, PA Turnpike has signs about the 95 detour EB between Harrisburg West (242) and Harrisburg East (247).
Quote from: SectorZ on June 13, 2023, 08:02:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 13, 2023, 04:45:21 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 11, 2023, 02:05:29 PM
I-85 in Atlanta took 53 days (counting from the day the fire started?)
Quote from: jdb1234 on June 13, 2023, 04:37:52 PM
This reminds me a lot of the tanker fire accident on I-65 @ I-20/59 back in 2002 (this interchange would have a similar accident 2 years later on a different bridge). This new bridge opened 53 days after the accident.
Weird coincidence.
It sets a solid expectation at least. Not to anyone outside this forum of course.
Everyone is saying it will take "months" to replace the bridge along I-95. Yet other emergency bridge replacements only took a couple months. Something doesn't seem right here in how this will take so long.
Quote from: ilpt4u on June 12, 2023, 09:59:48 PM
The only way the NJTP would be toll-free from Southpoint to Exit 6 is if someone is paying for it...be it USDOT/FHWA, PennDOT/PA, etc. I don't see that happening
The Turnpike Authority isn't going to offer free rides because "free" I-95 thru Philly is broken
I do think this scenario highlights that the NJTP between I-295 and Exit 6 really should be made a formal part of the Interstate Highway System and designated as such. An I-95E or I-895 (or other available even 3di) designation/shield would get the job done. That said, the Turnpike has not shown any interest in seeking the I-shield south of Exit 6 that I'm aware of.
The only even x95 that NJ hasn't considered using is 695. 895 was planned for Burlington-Bristol. NY's 695 is inconsequential and the next one south is Baltimore, so they
could. But again, someone else would have to pay to add all those shields.
I-695 was considered for central New Jersey as the connector between the I-95 Somerset Freeway and I-287 to/from the north.
Quote from: kphoger on June 13, 2023, 04:45:21 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on June 11, 2023, 02:05:29 PM
I-85 in Atlanta took 53 days (counting from the day the fire started?)
After seeing the time to rebuild in Atlanta quoted as 43 days in another source, I figured I should do some fact-checking. It appears 53 days is not correct.
The NTSB report says 43 days, but does not give the actual date the bridge reopened:
NTSB: Fire damage to bridge and subsequent collapse (https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/HWY17IH012.aspx)
Meanwhile, this
USA Today article came out on May 15, 2017 (a Monday) on the occasion of the new bridge's first use by morning commuters:
Atlanta's I-85 bridge reopens for first morning commute (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/05/15/atlantas-85-bridge-reopens-first-morning-commute/322159001/)
It is a little vague about when exactly the new bridge opened--it says "over the weekend," which presumably means either May 13 or May 14. The fire was on March 30, which would mean it opened 44 or 45 days after (1 day remaining in March plus 30 days in April and 13 or 14 in May).
The fire, collapse, and reconstruction had its own thread on this forum (of course!). CtrlAltDel made the first post (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19937.msg2226760#msg2226760) noting I-85 had fully reopened, with a timestamp of 18:46:44 EDT on May 14.
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 13, 2023, 08:48:23 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on June 13, 2023, 08:02:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 13, 2023, 04:45:21 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 11, 2023, 02:05:29 PM
I-85 in Atlanta took 53 days (counting from the day the fire started?)
Quote from: jdb1234 on June 13, 2023, 04:37:52 PM
This reminds me a lot of the tanker fire accident on I-65 @ I-20/59 back in 2002 (this interchange would have a similar accident 2 years later on a different bridge). This new bridge opened 53 days after the accident.
Weird coincidence.
It sets a solid expectation at least. Not to anyone outside this forum of course.
Everyone is saying it will take "months" to replace the bridge along I-95. Yet other emergency bridge replacements only took a couple months. Something doesn't seem right here in how this will take so long.
Mostly because we're looking at how long it took after the fact, and forgetting the news stories the days after the incident.
From April 1, 2017:
https://www.cnn.com/2017/03/31/us/atlanta-interstate-85-fire-collapse/index.html
QuoteA man has been arrested on suspicion of intentionally setting a huge fire that brought down part of an elevated interstate highway in Atlanta, a collapse that is expected to complicate traffic for months in one of the nation's most congested cities.
https://www.businessinsider.com/atlanta-bridge-fire-collapse-arrest-2017-3
QuoteGeorgia Transportation Commissioner Russell McMurry said 350 feet of highway will need to be replaced in both directions on I-85, which carries about 400,000 cars a day through the city and is one of the South's most important north-south routes. He said repairs will take months but declined to be more specific.
Regarding the I-65 collapse in 2002:
https://www.gadsdentimes.com/story/news/2002/01/06/explosion-fire-kills-one-closes-i-65-indefinitely/32361972007/
QuoteIt could take months to repair the overpass...
Anyone noticing the common theme here?
The moment we have a big disaster like this, officials immediately say "months to repair", then when it's completed in weeks, everyone's happy. It certainly sounds better than "It'll take weeks to repair" then people start complaining it's taking too long when it's drawn out to a few months.
Well Hello everyone Tonytone here to report in, I have been inactive for a while, but I think Im gonna get back to the forum.
Some updates.....
I live in Philly now (Past 4 years) I also move into a home in wissonoming which just happens to be down the street from the crash site.
So far traffic in the area has been impacted, I just drove by the area an hour ago and they have police stationed at almost every light starting at Tacony & Comly, all the way up to Cottman, They are either blocking the Street, or parked by the Traffic boxes to control the lights.
I was not able to check out the crash site due to the blockages, I'll try to get a look from the state road side next later this week.
I will also get the drone up in the area in the next weeks to capture some Photos, and Video from the crash site.
I will try to keep the group updated on conditions since I most likely am the closest to the site, and it will also be affecting my travels.
EDIT LINKS TO FOOTAGE
Link from Twitter @Mark Fusetti Driving over 95 SB during the fire that morning Notice the huge sag in the Bridge portion
https://twitter.com/MarkFusetti/status/1667842327077875714?s=20
FOOTAGE OF TRUCK CRASHING
VIDEO 1
https://twitter.com/MarkFusetti/status/1668406917813739520?s=20
VIDEO 2
https://twitter.com/KellyRuleTV/status/1668659201868984320?s=20
Tony V out
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 13, 2023, 08:48:23 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on June 13, 2023, 08:02:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 13, 2023, 04:45:21 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 11, 2023, 02:05:29 PM
I-85 in Atlanta took 53 days (counting from the day the fire started?)
Quote from: jdb1234 on June 13, 2023, 04:37:52 PM
This reminds me a lot of the tanker fire accident on I-65 @ I-20/59 back in 2002 (this interchange would have a similar accident 2 years later on a different bridge). This new bridge opened 53 days after the accident.
Weird coincidence.
It sets a solid expectation at least. Not to anyone outside this forum of course.
Everyone is saying it will take "months" to replace the bridge along I-95. Yet other emergency bridge replacements only took a couple months. Something doesn't seem right here in how this will take so long.
erm, "a couple of months" qualifies as "months", no?
for that matter, any time longer than a month counts as months. 53 days? that's roughly 1.75
months. it may not match standard usage, but it's technically correct - and being technically correct can keep you from getting raked over the coals (either by your boss, the media, the public, or all of the above).
Quote from: Tonytone on June 13, 2023, 11:57:08 PM
Well Hello everyone Tonytone here to report in, I have been inactive for a while, but I think Im gonna get back to the forum.
Some updates.....
I live in Philly now (Past 4 years) I also move into a home in wissonoming which just happens to be down the street from the crash site.
So far traffic in the area has been impacted, I just drove by the area an hour ago and they have police stationed at almost every light starting at Tacony & Comly, all the way up to Cottman, They are either blocking the Street, or parked by the Traffic boxes to control the lights.
I was not able to check out the crash site due to the blockages, I'll try to get a look from the state road side next later this week.
I will also get the drone up in the area in the next weeks to capture some Photos, and Video from the crash site.
I will try to keep the group updated on conditions since I most likely am the closest to the site, and it will also be affecting my travels.
EDIT LINKS TO FOOTAGE
Link from Twitter @Mark Fusetti Driving over 95 SB during the fire that morning Notice the huge sag in the Bridge portion
https://twitter.com/MarkFusetti/status/1667842327077875714?s=20
FOOTAGE OF TRUCK CRASHING
VIDEO 1
https://twitter.com/MarkFusetti/status/1668406917813739520?s=20
VIDEO 2
https://twitter.com/KellyRuleTV/status/1668659201868984320?s=20
Tony V out
"I am in control here, in the White House." -- Alexander Haig
Quote from: odditude on June 14, 2023, 06:44:36 AM
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 13, 2023, 08:48:23 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on June 13, 2023, 08:02:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 13, 2023, 04:45:21 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 11, 2023, 02:05:29 PM
I-85 in Atlanta took 53 days (counting from the day the fire started?)
Quote from: jdb1234 on June 13, 2023, 04:37:52 PM
This reminds me a lot of the tanker fire accident on I-65 @ I-20/59 back in 2002 (this interchange would have a similar accident 2 years later on a different bridge). This new bridge opened 53 days after the accident.
Weird coincidence.
It sets a solid expectation at least. Not to anyone outside this forum of course.
Everyone is saying it will take "months" to replace the bridge along I-95. Yet other emergency bridge replacements only took a couple months. Something doesn't seem right here in how this will take so long.
erm, "a couple of months" qualifies as "months", no?
for that matter, any time longer than a month counts as months. 53 days? that's roughly 1.75 months. it may not match standard usage, but it's technically correct - and being technically correct can keep you from getting raked over the coals (either by your boss, the media, the public, or all of the above).
You're a weather forecaster, aren't you?
Quote from: odditude on June 14, 2023, 06:44:36 AM
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 13, 2023, 08:48:23 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on June 13, 2023, 08:02:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 13, 2023, 04:45:21 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 11, 2023, 02:05:29 PM
I-85 in Atlanta took 53 days (counting from the day the fire started?)
Quote from: jdb1234 on June 13, 2023, 04:37:52 PM
This reminds me a lot of the tanker fire accident on I-65 @ I-20/59 back in 2002 (this interchange would have a similar accident 2 years later on a different bridge). This new bridge opened 53 days after the accident.
Weird coincidence.
It sets a solid expectation at least. Not to anyone outside this forum of course.
Everyone is saying it will take "months" to replace the bridge along I-95. Yet other emergency bridge replacements only took a couple months. Something doesn't seem right here in how this will take so long.
erm, "a couple of months" qualifies as "months", no?
for that matter, any time longer than a month counts as months. 53 days? that's roughly 1.75 months. it may not match standard usage, but it's technically correct - and being technically correct can keep you from getting raked over the coals (either by your boss, the media, the public, or all of the above).
Not to mention, on a project of national significance, using superlative wording gets federal resources unlocked in the quest to cut the typical red tape it normally takes for repairs on such structures to reduce the pain everyone will surely be feeling that has to use it.
Sounds like they are going to fill over the ramp and create a temporary roadway in the center, while the bridges are being reconstructed around it. Assume the footprint will be widened if they are going to have six lanes in the center. There will be a 24/7 live camera feed during construction.
Demolition should be done tomorrow, with backfill starting thereafter (with police escorts accompanying the dirt from its origin in Delaware County).
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 14, 2023, 11:10:31 AM
Sounds like they are going to fill over the ramp and create a temporary roadway in the center, while the bridges are being reconstructed around it. Assume the footprint will be widened if they are going to have six lanes in the center. There will be a 24/7 live camera feed during construction.
Demolition should be done tomorrow, with backfill starting thereafter (with police escorts accompanying the dirt from its origin in Delaware County).
Im interested to see that.
So after they lay the new bridge beams down, and repour the concrete and etc they will dig the dirt out, and it will be good as new?
Also reports today are saying parts of the SB wall have to be torn town as well due to fire damage.
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 14, 2023, 11:10:31 AM
Sounds like they are going to fill over the ramp and create a temporary roadway in the center, while the bridges are being reconstructed around it. Assume the footprint will be widened if they are going to have six lanes in the center. There will be a 24/7 live camera feed during construction.
Demolition should be done tomorrow, with backfill starting thereafter (with police escorts accompanying the dirt from its origin in Delaware County).
I saw someone post this somewhere as a Pie in the Sky dream idea. But it does make sense.
Getting the highway reopened this way can be done probably in the matter of days, if not a few weeks (ha, take that Atlanta).. The off-ramp can be closed for a bit of time at a much more minor inconvenience to the general public. There's some unfortunate timing for residents and businesses in that area, as the exit just before this, Exit 27 for Bridge Street, was just permanently closed in April, leaving one less option to get around the longer closure of the Cottman Ave ramp.
Since the highway here was widened to 4 lanes and 2 full shoulders in each direction, they have some unusually decent room to work with in the Philly area on 95. I think they can get three temporary lanes in, while reconstructing the overpass for three permanent lanes within the existing footprint, without much of a problem. And the narrowing of traffic from 4 lanes to 3 occurs so much in this area, the congestion shouldn't be terribly bad.
Some more details
QuoteThe reconstruction of the collapsed portion of 95 will be completed "as quickly as possible," Pennsylvania Gov. Shapiro said Wednesday.
Shapiro avoided giving a definitive timeline of the reconstruction of the collapsed portion of I-95 in Northeast Philadelphia Wednesday, repeating instead several times that the job would be completed "as quickly as possible."
"We realize this is a challenge for motorists," Shapiro said. "That's why these guys are working their tails off to get it done as quickly as possible."
Once demolition of the damaged portion of the highway is completed, Shapiro said, crews will backfill the demolished area with Pennsylvania-made recycled glass aggregate. The Pennsylvania State Police will escort trucks carrying the fill from Delaware County to Philadelphia in order to ensure the material makes it to the site "as quickly as possible."
PennDot has hired a Philadelphia firm, Buckley & Co., to rebuild the roadway. That company was similarly hired in 1996 to rebuild a section of 95 that was badly damaged in a tire fire in the city's Port Richmond section.
Once the backfill is added to the roadway, crews will pave the surface level of 95, and three center lanes in each direction will be open to motorists. The area outside those lanes will have new lanes built on it PennDot Secretary of Transportation Mike Carroll said.
"Once those are completed, we will transition the traffic to the completed new structure, excavate the material that constitutes the fill, use that in another project, and complete the reconstruction of the center part of the bridge," Carroll said.
After the center portion is completed, officials will reopen the Cottman Ave. exit ramp, and work will be completed. Authorities have said the work is expected to take months to complete.
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 14, 2023, 12:10:09 PM
Quote
The Pennsylvania State Police will escort trucks carrying the fill from Delaware County to Philadelphia in order to ensure the material makes it to the site "as quickly as possible."
*whew* This way, the dump trucks can get all the way up to 90 mph and blow through any red lights. This should shave a good 18 minutes off the total project time!
:clap:
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 14, 2023, 12:05:50 PM
Since the highway here was widened to 4 lanes and 2 full shoulders in each direction, they have some unusually decent room to work with in the Philly area on 95. I think they can get three temporary lanes in, while reconstructing the overpass for three permanent lanes within the existing footprint, without much of a problem. And the narrowing of traffic from 4 lanes to 3 occurs so much in this area, the congestion shouldn't be terribly bad.
Why would they construct the overpass for 3 permanent lanes each way when it was 4 lanes and full shoulders each way prior to the collapse?
The reconstructed bridges would have 4 lanes in each direction, plus full shoulders.
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 14, 2023, 12:22:15 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 14, 2023, 12:05:50 PM
Since the highway here was widened to 4 lanes and 2 full shoulders in each direction, they have some unusually decent room to work with in the Philly area on 95. I think they can get three temporary lanes in, while reconstructing the overpass for three permanent lanes within the existing footprint, without much of a problem. And the narrowing of traffic from 4 lanes to 3 occurs so much in this area, the congestion shouldn't be terribly bad.
Why would they construct the overpass for 3 permanent lanes each way when it was 4 lanes and full shoulders each way prior to the collapse?
The reconstructed bridges would have 4 lanes in each direction, plus full shoulders.
Im also confused on what they are saying, it sounds like a PA special with a bridge with no shoulders.
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 14, 2023, 12:22:15 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 14, 2023, 12:05:50 PM
Since the highway here was widened to 4 lanes and 2 full shoulders in each direction, they have some unusually decent room to work with in the Philly area on 95. I think they can get three temporary lanes in, while reconstructing the overpass for three permanent lanes within the existing footprint, without much of a problem. And the narrowing of traffic from 4 lanes to 3 occurs so much in this area, the congestion shouldn't be terribly bad.
Why would they construct the overpass for 3 permanent lanes each way when it was 4 lanes and full shoulders each way prior to the collapse?
The reconstructed bridges would have 4 lanes in each direction, plus full shoulders.
Yes, I see what you mean, the three "permanent" lanes aren't exactly permanent...they're just in a temporary configuration on the permanent structure.
That said...Fill in ramp area with enough dirt to allow for 3 temporary lanes.
Next to those lanes, rebuild overpass 3 lanes wide.
When that opens, they can shift traffic to the new overpass. Then they can remove the temporary roadway and dirt fill, and built the rest of the overpass. When done, it's back to its original configuration.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 14, 2023, 12:05:50 PMSince the highway here was widened to 4 lanes and 2 full shoulders in each direction, they have some unusually decent room to work with in the Philly area on 95. I think they can get three temporary lanes in, while reconstructing the overpass for three permanent lanes within the existing footprint, without much of a problem. And the narrowing of traffic from 4 lanes to 3 occurs so much in this area, the congestion shouldn't be terribly bad.
I think this repair concept works largely because I-95 indeed has shoulders wider than the minima called for in Interstate standards. Google Maps' measure tool suggests they are 12 ft wide both left and right, versus the usual 4 ft left and 10 ft right for Interstates that don't carry heavy truck volumes. As an ordinary traffic lane is 12 ft wide, these shoulders give the contractor a cross-section width equivalent to 12 lanes to work in without stepping outside the envelope of the existing roadway, with 6 lanes being worked on at a time. It won't surprise me, however, if at least two of the lanes in each direction need to be narrowed to 11 ft to accommodate temporary barriers. (I don't see them allowing head-to-head traffic separated by delineators only for a roadway that carries 160,000 VPD, and of course any drop-offs will need to be protected by parapets.)
The drawback is that staging construction in this way requires the contractor to work around traffic and thus will make the project last much longer. The calculation appears to be that capacity constraint for a period of many months causes less pain than total loss of the connection for even as little as one month.
Quote from: Tonytone on June 14, 2023, 11:20:52 AMAlso reports today are saying parts of the SB wall have to be torn down as well due to fire damage.
I was wondering about that and the likely impact on the timeline for rebuilding. 8700 gallons of 87-octane unleaded gasoline has a tremendous amount of energy, and it wasn't just the girders that were getting cooked--the bearings, abutments, retaining walls, and even the fill would have been catching some of it. I-85 in Atlanta was a bit more straightforward to fix since the fire occurred close to the middle of the bridge, and even then GDOT's contractor had to remove and replace the spans adjacent to the one that collapsed.
Interesting detail on the recycled glass material that will be used to carry I-95 temporarily. I'm guessing these pellets are quite strong if they don't need as much as they would for dirt or sand.
QuoteThe company supplying the glass aggregate, AeroAggregates of North America, has a production site just south of Philadelphia along the Delaware River. There, it mills glass bottles and jars diverted from landfills into a powder and heats it into a foam to produce small, lightweight nuggets that are gray and look like rocks – but are as light as Styrofoam, said the CEO, Archie Filshill.
Each one is about an inch or inch-and-a-half wide.
Mr. Filshill estimated that it will take about 100 box-truck loads to haul about 10,000 cubic yards of the glass nuggets required for the I-95 project. The total weight is around 2,000 tons, a fraction of the weight of regular sand or dirt, meaning that it will take many fewer trucks to bring it to the site, Mr. Filshill said.
PennDOT was the first to use his company's product after he began making it in 2017, and it is now approved for use by 23 state transportation departments around the country, Mr. Filshill said. AeroAggregates will divert material bound for other, less urgent projects to the I-95 project, he said.
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 14, 2023, 02:09:36 PM
Interesting detail on the recycled glass material that will be used to carry I-95 temporarily. I'm guessing these pellets are quite strong if they don't need as much as they would for dirt or sand.
QuoteThe company supplying the glass aggregate, AeroAggregates of North America, has a production site just south of Philadelphia along the Delaware River. There, it mills glass bottles and jars diverted from landfills into a powder and heats it into a foam to produce small, lightweight nuggets that are gray and look like rocks – but are as light as Styrofoam, said the CEO, Archie Filshill.
Each one is about an inch or inch-and-a-half wide.
Mr. Filshill estimated that it will take about 100 box-truck loads to haul about 10,000 cubic yards of the glass nuggets required for the I-95 project. The total weight is around 2,000 tons, a fraction of the weight of regular sand or dirt, meaning that it will take many fewer trucks to bring it to the site, Mr. Filshill said.
PennDOT was the first to use his company's product after he began making it in 2017, and it is now approved for use by 23 state transportation departments around the country, Mr. Filshill said. AeroAggregates will divert material bound for other, less urgent projects to the I-95 project, he said.
Now
this is real new technology @kernal13 should advertise.
I mean, at least the people of these firms will make money off this???
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 14, 2023, 02:09:36 PM
Interesting detail on the recycled glass material that will be used to carry I-95 temporarily. I'm guessing these pellets are quite strong if they don't need as much as they would for dirt or sand.
QuoteThe company supplying the glass aggregate, AeroAggregates of North America, has a production site just south of Philadelphia along the Delaware River. There, it mills glass bottles and jars diverted from landfills into a powder and heats it into a foam to produce small, lightweight nuggets that are gray and look like rocks – but are as light as Styrofoam, said the CEO, Archie Filshill.
Each one is about an inch or inch-and-a-half wide.
Mr. Filshill estimated that it will take about 100 box-truck loads to haul about 10,000 cubic yards of the glass nuggets required for the I-95 project. The total weight is around 2,000 tons, a fraction of the weight of regular sand or dirt, meaning that it will take many fewer trucks to bring it to the site, Mr. Filshill said.
PennDOT was the first to use his company's product after he began making it in 2017, and it is now approved for use by 23 state transportation departments around the country, Mr. Filshill said. AeroAggregates will divert material bound for other, less urgent projects to the I-95 project, he said.
Your quote doesn't reference anything..... It just assumes we have read a different thread and there is no link to it.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/pennsylvania-plans-fix-collapsed-section-144416273.html
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 14, 2023, 12:10:09 PM
Some more details
Quote
[...]
Once demolition of the damaged portion of the highway is completed, Shapiro said, crews will backfill the demolished area with Pennsylvania-made recycled glass aggregate. The Pennsylvania State Police will escort trucks carrying the fill from Delaware County to Philadelphia in order to ensure the material makes it to the site "as quickly as possible."
[...]
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 14, 2023, 02:09:36 PM
Interesting detail on the recycled glass material that will be used to carry I-95 temporarily. I'm guessing these pellets are quite strong if they don't need as much as they would for dirt or sand.
Quote
The company supplying the glass aggregate, AeroAggregates of North America, has a production site just south of Philadelphia along the Delaware River. There, it mills glass bottles and jars diverted from landfills into a powder and heats it into a foam to produce small, lightweight nuggets that are gray and look like rocks – but are as light as Styrofoam, said the CEO, Archie Filshill.
Each one is about an inch or inch-and-a-half wide.
Mr. Filshill estimated that it will take about 100 box-truck loads to haul about 10,000 cubic yards of the glass nuggets required for the I-95 project. The total weight is around 2,000 tons, a fraction of the weight of regular sand or dirt, meaning that it will take many fewer trucks to bring it to the site, Mr. Filshill said.
PennDOT was the first to use his company's product after he began making it in 2017, and it is now approved for use by 23 state transportation departments around the country, Mr. Filshill said. AeroAggregates will divert material bound for other, less urgent projects to the I-95 project, he said.
Quote from: bwana39 on June 14, 2023, 05:46:23 PM
Your quote doesn't reference anything..... It just assumes we have read a different thread and there is no link to it.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/pennsylvania-plans-fix-collapsed-section-144416273.html
??? I knew what he was talking about, because he had made reference to it in this very thread just two hours earlier.
Why all the fill? Wouldn't two Bailey bridges be a bit more...... reasonable? It would be only be two lanes in each direction, but you wouldn't have to demo/remove all that fill afterwards.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on June 14, 2023, 07:51:09 PM
Why all the fill? Wouldn't two Bailey bridges be a bit more...... reasonable? It would be only be two lanes in each direction, but you wouldn't have to demo/remove all that fill afterwards.
It would be interesting to see the time and cost estimates of both.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on June 14, 2023, 07:51:09 PM
Why all the fill? Wouldn't two Bailey bridges be a bit more...... reasonable? It would be only be two lanes in each direction, but you wouldn't have to demo/remove all that fill afterwards.
Since at least one of the walls was compromised by the fire, perhaps they didn't feel it could hold the weight and decided filling it in (presumably with sheet piling walls on the sides) would be safer.
Coming off the TacPal into Philly this morning, everyone is still being forced straight ahead onto Levick St. No accessing State Road, no looping around via Elbridge St. to return to NJ. Why?
Quote from: Alps on June 13, 2023, 08:50:00 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on June 12, 2023, 09:59:48 PM
The only way the NJTP would be toll-free from Southpoint to Exit 6 is if someone is paying for it...be it USDOT/FHWA, PennDOT/PA, etc. I don't see that happening
The Turnpike Authority isn't going to offer free rides because "free" I-95 thru Philly is broken
I do think this scenario highlights that the NJTP between I-295 and Exit 6 really should be made a formal part of the Interstate Highway System and designated as such. An I-95E or I-895 (or other available even 3di) designation/shield would get the job done. That said, the Turnpike has not shown any interest in seeking the I-shield south of Exit 6 that I'm aware of.
The only even x95 that NJ hasn't considered using is 695. 895 was planned for Burlington-Bristol. NY's 695 is inconsequential and the next one south is Baltimore, so they could. But again, someone else would have to pay to add all those shields.
Quote from: akotchi on June 13, 2023, 09:16:14 PM
I-695 was considered for central New Jersey as the connector between the I-95 Somerset Freeway and I-287 to/from the north.
(https://www.interstate-guide.com/wp-content/uploads/maps/i-695-manville-nj-1973.jpg)
The proposal for Interstate 695 in New Jersey appeared on a number of General Drafting maps.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 13, 2023, 09:55:47 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 13, 2023, 04:45:21 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on June 11, 2023, 02:05:29 PM
I-85 in Atlanta took 53 days (counting from the day the fire started?)
After seeing the time to rebuild in Atlanta quoted as 43 days in another source, I figured I should do some fact-checking. It appears 53 days is not correct.
The NTSB report says 43 days, but does not give the actual date the bridge reopened:
NTSB: Fire damage to bridge and subsequent collapse (https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/HWY17IH012.aspx)
Meanwhile, this USA Today article came out on May 15, 2017 (a Monday) on the occasion of the new bridge's first use by morning commuters:
Atlanta's I-85 bridge reopens for first morning commute (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/05/15/atlantas-85-bridge-reopens-first-morning-commute/322159001/)
It is a little vague about when exactly the new bridge opened--it says "over the weekend," which presumably means either May 13 or May 14. The fire was on March 30, which would mean it opened 44 or 45 days after (1 day remaining in March plus 30 days in April and 13 or 14 in May).
The fire, collapse, and reconstruction had its own thread on this forum (of course!). CtrlAltDel made the first post (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19937.msg2226760#msg2226760) noting I-85 had fully reopened, with a timestamp of 18:46:44 EDT on May 14.
Have this GDOT tweet embedded on the I-85 page on Interstate-Guide from May 13, 2017:
https://twitter.com/GADeptofTrans/status/863527307864150018
The livestream of the site is up and running if you want to watch it
https://www.penndot.pa.gov/RegionalOffices/district-6/Pages/AlertDetails.aspx
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 15, 2023, 11:49:34 AM
The livestream of the site is up and running if you want to watch it
https://www.penndot.pa.gov/RegionalOffices/district-6/Pages/AlertDetails.aspx
Thanks for posting that. From what I can see, the retaining walls suffered significant damage, and would probably not support a Bailey bridge. In order to get the 3 lanes each way of highway open quickly, I can see just burying the middle part of the walls for phase 1.
https://6abc.com/i-95-collapse-philadelphia-collapsed-philly-interstate-95/13385819/ Demolition is complete, construction of the temporary roadway beginning and could be finished and open to traffic by July.
A month to fill & pave six lanes, on an expedited schedule?
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 15, 2023, 06:51:03 PM
A month to fill & pave six lanes, on an expedited schedule?
July is two weeks away. Hoping it would be a week at most, but a July 1 deadline would be acceptable.
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 15, 2023, 07:03:56 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 15, 2023, 06:51:03 PM
A month to fill & pave six lanes, on an expedited schedule?
July is two weeks away. Hoping it would be a week at most, but a July 1 deadline would be acceptable.
They originally said they hoped to have the old bridges removed by the end of NEXT WEEK so I'm not going to believe any other schedule predictions.
Quote from: Dough4872 on June 15, 2023, 06:48:02 PM
https://6abc.com/i-95-collapse-philadelphia-collapsed-philly-interstate-95/13385819/ Demolition is complete, construction of the temporary roadway beginning and could be finished and open to traffic by July.
Well, this is very optimistic of them. It would be great if the whole thing was reopened in time for the Fourth travel day.
For a group of people that recognizes the most minor of differences in signage lettering, traffic light manufacturers and has a great memory of historic road features, there's a noticeable ignorance towards actual highway construction, especially when it comes to emergency construction.
I'm not sure how people think that every destroyed overpass is the same, and instantly compares previous timelines...but not previous actual incidents. No one here seems to have even questioned the fact that a 30+ ton tractor trailer hit a bridge wall and basically all but blew up, but yet believes that the bridge should instantly be able to withstand new construction. Or that steel beams aren't sitting around on the ready to be installed by ABC technics, further misunderstanding what ABC actually consists of and the actual timeline length of such projects.
If you were to take a shovel of dirt and put it in a hole, it would appear to fill it up pretty quick. If you were to take a shovel of dirt and put it in a hole, and pound it down so hard water couldn't leak thru it, you'll be getting a lot more shovels of dirt. That's basically what they're doing here, so traffic doesn't sink down loose dirt. So 2 weeks or so - by July - for those that forget that there's not 30 days left in June - is a formidable task, but doable if they keep those truckloads of dirt rolling in.
No doubt there will still be comparisons to other incidents, but usually those other incidents only look at when the road reopened, not when ALL the construction was completed. The punch-list items last much longer. Months on even the most ordinary of projects.
^ That is a fair and very valid point. Even once traffic re-opens when that time comes around, it will likely be many months until the new permanent overpasses are complete, despite traffic moving in the area within a couple of weeks.
From the local news, it appears the trucks started rolling in yesterday with the glass pellets.
Also, the detour required a detour this morning when a truck knocked down power lines on the road parallel to the collapse site.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 15, 2023, 11:39:17 PM
For a group of people that recognizes the most minor of differences in signage lettering, traffic light manufacturers and has a great memory of historic road features, there's a noticeable ignorance towards actual highway construction, especially when it comes to emergency construction.
I'm not sure how people think that every destroyed overpass is the same, and instantly compares previous timelines...but not previous actual incidents. No one here seems to have even questioned the fact that a 30+ ton tractor trailer hit a bridge wall and basically all but blew up, but yet believes that the bridge should instantly be able to withstand new construction. Or that steel beams aren't sitting around on the ready to be installed by ABC technics, further misunderstanding what ABC actually consists of and the actual timeline length of such projects.
If you were to take a shovel of dirt and put it in a hole, it would appear to fill it up pretty quick. If you were to take a shovel of dirt and put it in a hole, and pound it down so hard water couldn't leak thru it, you'll be getting a lot more shovels of dirt. That's basically what they're doing here, so traffic doesn't sink down loose dirt. So 2 weeks or so - by July - for those that forget that there's not 30 days left in June - is a formidable task, but doable if they keep those truckloads of dirt rolling in.
No doubt there will still be comparisons to other incidents, but usually those other incidents only look at when the road reopened, not when ALL the construction was completed. The punch-list items last much longer. Months on even the most ordinary of projects.
IOW, one size doesn't fit all when it comes to collapsed bridges and the process of replacing them. Yes, good point.
Sounds like July 1 is indeed the target
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/i-95-in-philadelphia-to-reopen-within-two-weeks-says-pa-gov-josh-shapiro/3587857/
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 17, 2023, 12:50:40 PM
Sounds like July 1 is indeed the target
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/i-95-in-philadelphia-to-reopen-within-two-weeks-says-pa-gov-josh-shapiro/3587857/
The caption of the photo in the article is not correct . . . the location is somewhere on the N.J. Turnpike, which does not go through Lawrence Twp. Can tell by the style of the structure, variable speed limit sign, and small structure ID plaque on the bridge pier in the background. I cannot read the milepost.
Quote from: akotchi on June 17, 2023, 02:27:31 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 17, 2023, 12:50:40 PM
Sounds like July 1 is indeed the target
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/i-95-in-philadelphia-to-reopen-within-two-weeks-says-pa-gov-josh-shapiro/3587857/
The caption of the photo in the article is not correct . . . the location is somewhere on the N.J. Turnpike, which does not go through Lawrence Twp. Can tell by the style of the structure, variable speed limit sign, and small structure ID plaque on the bridge pier in the background. I cannot read the milepost.
This may have changed. At this time, I'm only seeing videos of the press conference, and tweets of the incident.
After several days of seemingly slow progress, the filled-in overpass is quickly rising.
https://www.penndot.pa.gov/RegionalOffices/district-6/Pages/AlertDetails.aspx
I'm guessing they need to build up upwards of around 25 feet of fill: 16 or so feet of underpass clearance, 7 feet for what would've been the height of the bridge beams, then a foot or so of bridge driving surface, each give or take a foot or two. At present, it appears they're in the 15-20 foot range of that fill. Most of that fill occurred within the past 36 hours or so.
The contractor hired is taking advantage of the placement of that camera, which numerous signage telling everyone who's constructing that temp roadway there.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 18, 2023, 01:47:35 PM
The contractor hired is taking advantage of the placement of that camera, which numerous signage telling everyone who's constructing that temp roadway there.
That's pretty blatant, and worse is the Penn DOT /FHWA? banner that is unreadable because it's blowing in the breeze. Anybody at DOT have the b*lls to tell the contractor to take down some of their signs and put the DOT banner in a better spot?
Quote from: ne11931 on June 18, 2023, 04:33:18 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 18, 2023, 01:47:35 PM
The contractor hired is taking advantage of the placement of that camera, which numerous signage telling everyone who's constructing that temp roadway there.
That's pretty blatant, and worse is the Penn DOT /FHWA? banner that is unreadable because it's blowing in the breeze. Anybody at DOT have the b*lls to tell the contractor to take down some of their signs and put the DOT banner in a better spot?
Why?
Quote from: akotchi on June 13, 2023, 09:16:14 PM
I-695 was considered for central New Jersey as the connector between the I-95 Somerset Freeway and I-287 to/from the north.
True, it was considered in some plans, I forgot.
I missed seeing the beginning of the in-fill process, and the camera resolution isn't the greatest. Anybody know what the retaining walls are made of?
Road Guy Rob did a nice video on the collapse and repairs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ249N1aW_8
Quote from: davewiecking on June 20, 2023, 10:39:49 AM
I missed seeing the beginning of the in-fill process, and the camera resolution isn't the greatest. Anybody know what the retaining walls are made of?
It looked to me like some sort of mesh fabric. How it's attached to the fill I'm not sure. They would lay out each course as the fill was pumped in.
Quote from: vdeane on June 20, 2023, 12:41:17 PM
Road Guy Rob did a nice video on the collapse and repairs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ249N1aW_8
I'll give him kudos for all the exhibits he made to show what will be done; quite impressive. Althoigh he got 3 things wrong; 2 relatively minor, and 1 that would get him crucified.
1) He stated the SB 95 bridge was destroyed, and NB 95 was severely damaged and had to be removed. It was the opposite.
2) He seemed to blame the collapse on the rebar within the concrete. Actually, he was a bit unclear of this as he did show an image of bridge beams at one point, which was the actual structural reason for the collapse. He kinda got the general point across, that metal gave way destroying the bridge; he just did a lousy job explaining it.
3) At the very end he said he's going for a Philly Cheesesteak Sandwich. No no no no no no no. Philly people would add him to the glass/dirt mixture they're filling the hole with hearing that. In and near the city, it's just a Cheesesteak. For most outsiders, Philly Cheesesteak is acceptable. But a Philly Cheesesteak Sandwich...showing whatever slop he was eating? He'd lose any credibility if that was broadcasted widely in the Philly area.
And people wonder why other states do not use "Philadelphia" as as control city?
Quote from: catch22 on June 20, 2023, 12:53:44 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on June 20, 2023, 10:39:49 AM
I missed seeing the beginning of the in-fill process, and the camera resolution isn't the greatest. Anybody know what the retaining walls are made of?
It looked to me like some sort of mesh fabric. How it's attached to the fill I'm not sure. They would lay out each course as the fill was pumped in.
I thought it might be gabion walls, but I wasn't sure how much lateral strength that would have. Guess it depends on how the 2 sides are tied together. I guess the fact that the crushed glass is fairly lightweight helps, but it will still have 6 lanes of traffic on it.
https://6abc.com/i-95-repairs-construction-collapse-rebuild/13406575/ I-95 will be reopening to traffic this weekend.
For those who haven't noticed, the camera has been moved to the upper level, but Buckley only brought one of their signs up. Modified L-shaped Jersey barrier parts have been installed adjacent the NB lanes, and are currently being installed on the other side.
https://6abc.com/i-9-collapse-philadelphia-road-repair-construction/13412754/ Paving has begun for the temporary fix to I-95
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 20, 2023, 01:52:31 PM
3) At the very end he said he's going for a Philly Cheesesteak Sandwich. No no no no no no no. Philly people would add him to the glass/dirt mixture they're filling the hole with hearing that. In and near the city, it's just a Cheesesteak. For most outsiders, Philly Cheesesteak is acceptable. But a Philly Cheesesteak Sandwich...showing whatever slop he was eating? He'd lose any credibility if that was broadcasted widely in the Philly area.
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on June 20, 2023, 02:28:17 PM
And people wonder why other states do not use "Philadelphia" as as control city?
Because of cheesesteaks?
https://6abc.com/pocono-raceway-i-95-bridge-collapse-philadelphia-road-repair/13414418/ Interesting, Pocono Raceway is sending their jet driers to make sure line painting isn't delayed by rain
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 20, 2023, 01:52:31 PM
3) At the very end he said he's going for a Philly Cheesesteak Sandwich. No no no no no no no. Philly people would add him to the glass/dirt mixture they're filling the hole with hearing that. In and near the city, it's just a Cheesesteak. For most outsiders, Philly Cheesesteak is acceptable. But a Philly Cheesesteak Sandwich...showing whatever slop he was eating? He'd lose any credibility if that was broadcasted widely in the Philly area.
He's going to be the receiver of some some wiz wit for that faux-pas..
They are now saying the road will reopen Friday at Noon. There will be three 11-foot lanes, with the lane closures starting a mile before the bridge
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 22, 2023, 06:23:46 PMThere will be three 11-foot lanes, with the lane closures starting a mile before the bridge
Called it!
Lane lines being painted tonight on the new surface https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP8E09G6ga8
Quote from: cjw2001 on June 22, 2023, 08:52:57 PM
Lane lines being painted tonight on the new surface
And as of 11pm, lines are painted. Traffic will be rolling again...an incredible 12 days after the collapse.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 20, 2023, 01:52:31 PMHe seemed to blame the collapse on the rebar within the concrete. Actually, he was a bit unclear of this as he did show an image of bridge beams at one point, which was the actual structural reason for the collapse. He kinda got the general point across, that metal gave way destroying the bridge; he just did a lousy job explaining it.
It sounded like he thought the deck was supported by AASHTO concrete beams. It was not. This was a single-span steel plate girder bridge with a concrete deck laid over stay-in-place forms.
I wonder if he got confused by information floating around about the old bridge, which was a three-span design with concrete beams.
Google StreetView, September 2012: Original bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0239818,-75.030963,3a,75y,11.58h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slXhnuGghaElfHjN4iYvVaA!2e0!5s20120901T000000!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu)
Google StreetView, November 2017: New bridge (the one destroyed by fire) shortly after completion of the I-95 Cottman-Princeton upgrade (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0239768,-75.0309257,3a,75y,359.39h,90.98t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sRtNP7hu73E0OWUr3igTvrA!2e0!5s20171101T000000!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu)
I agree, calling it "Philly cheesesteak" is like calling it "British cricket" or an "Australian kangaroo." That said, major hats off to Penn DOT for getting the job done. A model for all future catastrophic failures.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 20, 2023, 01:52:31 PM
3) At the very end he said he's going for a Philly Cheesesteak Sandwich. No no no no no no no. Philly people would add him to the glass/dirt mixture they're filling the hole with hearing that. In and near the city, it's just a Cheesesteak. For most outsiders, Philly Cheesesteak is acceptable. But a Philly Cheesesteak Sandwich...showing whatever slop he was eating? He'd lose any credibility if that was broadcasted widely in the Philly area.
More evidence that there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that people will not complain about.
Am I the only one watching this live feed and thinking this road could have re-opened hours ago, maybe even in time for the morning commute, if the Governor didn't feel the need to hold a press conference right on the new roadway?
I do not know if it was because of this, but I drove from DC to NY yesterday, and early afternoon it was really busy, though not awful, but much busier than I would expect on a Thursday crossing the DEMB.
I am not sure if that is just summer traffic, I-95 diverting to I-295, or both.
The NJTP seemed heavier in SJ, but most of the 95 corridor from DC to NY was too.
https://twitter.com/kylepaganCB/status/1672259574634512385
https://6abc.com/i-95-bridge-collapse-live-stream-philadelphia-repair/13417623/ I-95 is officially reopened to traffic.
Quote from: sharkyfour on June 23, 2023, 10:01:56 AM
Am I the only one watching this live feed and thinking this road could have re-opened hours ago, maybe even in time for the morning commute, if the Governor didn't feel the need to hold a press conference right on the new roadway?
I was thinking that last night, after the striping was done, but it does appear there were some punch-list items being taken care of, even after "noon." (The roadway was not reopened when I looked before 12:30).
The presser was kind-of-necessary, that form of retail politics goes with projects like this -- I actually think Shapiro does a pretty good job at these (was amused when he actually said "get shit done") and much better than others (looking at you Mayor Kenney and your speed read of prepared remarks). The press questions about safety were also amusing, they were asking why the deadline was moved up just a few hours after saying Saturday or Sunday.
Quote from: Flyer78 on June 23, 2023, 02:56:25 PM
Quote from: sharkyfour on June 23, 2023, 10:01:56 AM
Am I the only one watching this live feed and thinking this road could have re-opened hours ago, maybe even in time for the morning commute, if the Governor didn't feel the need to hold a press conference right on the new roadway?
I was thinking that last night, after the striping was done, but it does appear there were some punch-list items being taken care of, even after "noon." (The roadway was not reopened when I looked before 12:30).
The presser was kind-of-necessary, that form of retail politics goes with projects like this -- I actually think Shapiro does a pretty good job at these (was amused when he actually said "get shit done") and much better than others (looking at you Mayor Kenney and your speed read of prepared remarks). The press questions about safety were also amusing, they were asking why the deadline was moved up just a few hours after saying Saturday or Sunday.
It is also important to allow the workers that made this possible to get their moment of appreciation. It is time well spent.
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
Okay, maybe it wasn't a day or two, but less than two weeks is pretty impressive.
Quote from: kernals12 on June 23, 2023, 04:01:46 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
Okay, maybe it wasn't a day or two, but less than two weeks is pretty impressive.
you do realize this is a temporary fix to enable the longer-term temporary fix to allow for the permanent replacement, right?
Quote from: odditude on June 23, 2023, 05:50:54 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 23, 2023, 04:01:46 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
Okay, maybe it wasn't a day or two, but less than two weeks is pretty impressive.
you do realize this is a temporary fix to enable the longer-term temporary fix to allow for the permanent replacement, right?
Less than two weeks is impressive.
It's a temporary fix. However, given the immense challenges involved in reconstructing not just a highway, but part of what is arguably the most important highway in the eastern US, it is indeed remarkable that it got done so quickly.
Yes, it is temporary.
My question would seemingly be if reopening the road / ramp passing under were not important, could it be left in place for the long term? IE how resilient / durable is it? How does it feel to drive across. (I realize asphalt travel lanes are on top of it.)
I would assume it is more expensive than clay / rock as a filler for a permanently filled elevated road structure.
While it is a material that is made partially from recycled material, is it truly environmentally friendly?
The last question is about demolition. How hard it it going to be to demo this stuff when the time comes?
This is more about the material than this placement per se. I doubt I am the only one who is curious.
Quote from: bwana39 on June 24, 2023, 12:17:29 PM
Yes, it is temporary.
My question would seemingly be if reopening the road / ramp passing under were not important, could it be left in place for the long term? IE how resilient / durable is it? How does it feel to drive across. (I realize asphalt travel lanes are on top of it.)
I would assume it is more expensive than clay / rock as a filler for a permanently filled elevated road structure.
While it is a material that is made partially from recycled material, is it truly environmentally friendly?
The last question is about demolition. How hard it it going to be to demo this stuff when the time comes?
This is more about the material than this placement per se. I doubt I am the only one who is curious.
At least for the demo part: Shouldn't be that hard, and it's not all that unusual of a project, even in a tight space. Mill off the asphalt. Dig out the fill. Depending where irs from, that fill can probably be recycled and used elsewhere.
AIUI, the glass pellets are classified as lightweight fill since they have only 15% of the density of regular soil. It has been reported that about 30 state DOTs have specs allowing its use in embankments, though I don't know for a fact that this is explicitly as part of permanent construction.
I have myself been wondering how the fill will be dismantled when the time comes to rebuild the center portion of the bridge. I speculate that they will bring in machinery along I-95 to rip up the wearing surface and excavate the top few feet of the fill. At some point they should be able to transition to bringing dump trucks in via Cottman Avenue to haul off the fill so that they no longer need to use construction accesses off mainline I-95, which carry the risk of motorists tailgating construction vehicles and ending up where they shouldn't.
I would then expect the excavated fill to be stored and then re-sold for use on other projects.
Another aspect I've been curious about is the fate of the retaining walls at the abutments. Can they be salvaged? If not, how will they be rebuilt?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 24, 2023, 01:00:17 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on June 24, 2023, 12:17:29 PM
Yes, it is temporary.
My question would seemingly be if reopening the road / ramp passing under were not important, could it be left in place for the long term? IE how resilient / durable is it? How does it feel to drive across. (I realize asphalt travel lanes are on top of it.)
I would assume it is more expensive than clay / rock as a filler for a permanently filled elevated road structure.
While it is a material that is made partially from recycled material, is it truly environmentally friendly?
The last question is about demolition. How hard it it going to be to demo this stuff when the time comes?
This is more about the material than this placement per se. I doubt I am the only one who is curious.
At least for the demo part: Shouldn't be that hard, and it's not all that unusual of a project, even in a tight space. Mill off the asphalt. Dig out the fill. Depending where irs from, that fill can probably be recycled and used elsewhere.
I agree with your average fill material. Is it going to be like digging through concrete or like digging through charcoal? I feel really comfortable, it is not going to be like digging up clay / sand or even loose rocks.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on June 24, 2023, 07:27:15 AM
It's a temporary fix. However, given the immense challenges involved in reconstructing not just a highway, but part of what is arguably the most important highway in the eastern US, it is indeed remarkable that it got done so quickly.
While I-95 does run from Maine to Florida, this constitutes a rather insignificant portion of it. It is really only of importance to Philadelphia. Though even the intercity busses running between Philadelphia and New York don't even use it. The vast majority of vehicles traveling southbound through the region stay on the New Jersey Turnpike at Exit 6 and go over the Delaware Memorial Bridge rejoining I-95 in Delaware. The reverse would be true for northbound travelers.
I doubt if any vehicles exiting the Turnpike at Exit 6 actually stay on I-95 non stop all of the way into Delaware.
A few literal screenshots (me pointing my cellphone at the TV which was broadcasting the Today Show Friday morning) showing closeups of what I suppose is truly a gabion wall holding back the lightweight fill. I imagine if they wanted to they could cut some of the metal and the rest of the wall would then fall onto the roadway below so they could scoop it up, but there are probably more efficient ways to do that. Aero Aggregates (or PennDOT) does intend to reuse this elsewhere. For more specifics on the material, check out www.aeroaggna.com and https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/green/lightweight-recycled-glass-pellets-will-be-used-to-fill-in-i-95-collapse-site/3586207/
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dawnet.com%2FAAroads%2F230623-EntireWall.jpg&hash=5b5d01bbb9bc4a0cb19c482776119ba3e2702dc6)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dawnet.com%2FAAroads%2F230623-Discussion.jpg&hash=be9fb5181e28ee3b8e7324dc0b5d1af158b847b6)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dawnet.com%2FAAroads%2F230623-CloseupWall.jpg&hash=ca4de86528a68c7366f5e84c5743b562726042ee)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dawnet.com%2FAAroads%2F230623-WallTiebacks.jpg&hash=b6a15ab8249c542cf95ca42d1fd6c3366985c99f)
https://www.today.com/video/i-95-collapse-temporary-roadway-set-to-open-in-philadelphia-184294981724
URL for the Today Show segment referenced above, if anyone wants to watch
What will be interesting to see is what happens in the next phase once traffic is moved onto the outside bridges when built. Supposedly it will be only two lanes and not three. That will create some major backups, but at least they can reinstate the flow on the detour route to alleviate the traffic.
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 24, 2023, 10:08:42 PM
What will be interesting to see is what happens in the next phase once traffic is moved onto the outside bridges when built. Supposedly it will be only two lanes and not three. That will create some major backups, but at least they can reinstate the flow on the detour route to alleviate the traffic.
Why would there only be 2 lanes? The new bridge will consist of the eventual right center lane, right lane and right shoulder.
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 24, 2023, 10:08:42 PM
What will be interesting to see is what happens in the next phase once traffic is moved onto the outside bridges when built. Supposedly it will be only two lanes and not three. That will create some major backups, but at least they can reinstate the flow on the detour route to alleviate the traffic.
It SHOULD be two lanes + the outside shoulder. SO the same 3-lanes in the temporary configuration. The old bridges were about 64' between the jersey barriers. Then there was around 8' between them. So lets say 136' from outside to outside. The existing temp bridge is 72' more or less. If they made the new bridges 6' wider, it should be more than enough for 3x11' lanes + Even without widening the footprint, it would be close.
Did the state hwy department say it would be two traffic lanes or "rebuild the outside two lanes"?
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on June 24, 2023, 02:23:29 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on June 24, 2023, 07:27:15 AM
It's a temporary fix. However, given the immense challenges involved in reconstructing not just a highway, but part of what is arguably the most important highway in the eastern US, it is indeed remarkable that it got done so quickly.
While I-95 does run from Maine to Florida, this constitutes a rather insignificant portion of it. It is really only of importance to Philadelphia. Though even the intercity busses running between Philadelphia and New York don't even use it. The vast majority of vehicles traveling southbound through the region stay on the New Jersey Turnpike at Exit 6 and go over the Delaware Memorial Bridge rejoining I-95 in Delaware. The reverse would be true for northbound travelers.
I doubt if any vehicles exiting the Turnpike at Exit 6 actually stay on I-95 non stop all of the way into Delaware.
Plenty of vehicles do. I commute on I-95 in Philly. I regularly see license plates of vehicles from Maine to Virginia and less frequently Southern states license plates. Majority of the Semi trucks on 95 in Philadelphia constitute long distance interstate traffic. Of course, I have hardly seen any of this traffic in last couple of weeks, credit to multi agency coordination. I expect it to pick back up now that Highway is open.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 24, 2023, 10:42:17 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 24, 2023, 10:08:42 PM
What will be interesting to see is what happens in the next phase once traffic is moved onto the outside bridges when built. Supposedly it will be only two lanes and not three. That will create some major backups, but at least they can reinstate the flow on the detour route to alleviate the traffic.
Why would there only be 2 lanes? The new bridge will consist of the eventual right center lane, right lane and right shoulder.
I have to admit, I was wondering how they would have space for three lanes on the outside portion and still have room to remove the pavement, the fill, and especially demolish that temporary retaining wall. Perhaps only being 2 lanes is to give them that space. Although that does make one wonder why the current temporary roadway is 3 lanes each way.
Quote from: Alps on June 23, 2023, 09:05:43 PM
Quote from: odditude on June 23, 2023, 05:50:54 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 23, 2023, 04:01:46 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on June 11, 2023, 10:22:50 AM
They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?
Okay, maybe it wasn't a day or two, but less than two weeks is pretty impressive.
you do realize this is a temporary fix to enable the longer-term temporary fix to allow for the permanent replacement, right?
Less than two weeks is impressive.
not discounting how impressive it is at all; i just wasn't sure kernals12 understood that this is a phased repair, since his previous comments implied he thought the entire job could be completed in a handful of days.
Has the DEMB, 295 from 95 in Wilmington, and the NJTP to exit 6 been more busy due to the 95 damage?
Quote from: vdeane on June 25, 2023, 04:34:38 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 24, 2023, 10:42:17 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 24, 2023, 10:08:42 PM
What will be interesting to see is what happens in the next phase once traffic is moved onto the outside bridges when built. Supposedly it will be only two lanes and not three. That will create some major backups, but at least they can reinstate the flow on the detour route to alleviate the traffic.
Why would there only be 2 lanes? The new bridge will consist of the eventual right center lane, right lane and right shoulder.
I have to admit, I was wondering how they would have space for three lanes on the outside portion and still have room to remove the pavement, the fill, and especially demolish that temporary retaining wall. Perhaps only being 2 lanes is to give them that space. Although that does make one wonder why the current temporary roadway is 3 lanes each way.
It LOOKS like the "Temporary retaining wall" is just a couple of layers of wire mesh. It seems like the new structure would not require ANY offset. I cannot imagine that the new permanent outside portions will not be wide enough for 3ea 11ft lanes with no shoulder. (Which by the way is LESS than 2ea 12 foot lanes and a 10' shoulder. )
Quote from: bwana39 on June 26, 2023, 02:43:56 PMIt LOOKS like the "Temporary retaining wall" is just a couple of layers of wire mesh. It seems like the new structure would not require ANY offset. I cannot imagine that the new permanent outside portions will not be wide enough for 3ea 11ft lanes with no shoulder. (Which by the way is LESS than 2ea 12 foot lanes and a 10' shoulder.)
I frankly do not believe the claim that the next phase will have just two traffic lanes in each direction. I suspect the media organization that is putting that out is misunderstanding whatever PennDOT is telling them.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 26, 2023, 02:59:53 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on June 26, 2023, 02:43:56 PMIt LOOKS like the "Temporary retaining wall" is just a couple of layers of wire mesh. It seems like the new structure would not require ANY offset. I cannot imagine that the new permanent outside portions will not be wide enough for 3ea 11ft lanes with no shoulder. (Which by the way is LESS than 2ea 12 foot lanes and a 10' shoulder.)
I frankly do not believe the claim that the next phase will have just two traffic lanes in each direction. I suspect the media organization that is putting that out is misunderstanding whatever PennDOT is telling them.
Where is this media claim anyway? I couldn't find it.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2023, 03:05:49 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 26, 2023, 02:59:53 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on June 26, 2023, 02:43:56 PMIt LOOKS like the "Temporary retaining wall" is just a couple of layers of wire mesh. It seems like the new structure would not require ANY offset. I cannot imagine that the new permanent outside portions will not be wide enough for 3ea 11ft lanes with no shoulder. (Which by the way is LESS than 2ea 12 foot lanes and a 10' shoulder.)
I frankly do not believe the claim that the next phase will have just two traffic lanes in each direction. I suspect the media organization that is putting that out is misunderstanding whatever PennDOT is telling them.
Where is this media claim anyway? I couldn't find it.
https://www.inquirer.com/news/i95-philadelphia-schedule-construction-reopen-detours-lanes-20230621.html
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 27, 2023, 11:25:07 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2023, 03:05:49 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 26, 2023, 02:59:53 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on June 26, 2023, 02:43:56 PMIt LOOKS like the "Temporary retaining wall" is just a couple of layers of wire mesh. It seems like the new structure would not require ANY offset. I cannot imagine that the new permanent outside portions will not be wide enough for 3ea 11ft lanes with no shoulder. (Which by the way is LESS than 2ea 12 foot lanes and a 10' shoulder.)
I frankly do not believe the claim that the next phase will have just two traffic lanes in each direction. I suspect the media organization that is putting that out is misunderstanding whatever PennDOT is telling them.
Where is this media claim anyway? I couldn't find it.
https://www.inquirer.com/news/i95-philadelphia-schedule-construction-reopen-detours-lanes-20230621.html
Thanks.
Could be a misprint or misunderstanding. The graphic below that statement shows 3 lanes available while the temp lanes are deconstructed.
This morning 3 trucks were rolling down 295 in NJ, each with a prefab bridge segment: 2 steel bridge beams with a concrete surface on top. Could they be heading to 95 here? The live view camera is no longer available. Several other projects in NJ going on also so early could've been for one of those.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 27, 2023, 12:12:09 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 27, 2023, 11:25:07 AMhttps://www.inquirer.com/news/i95-philadelphia-schedule-construction-reopen-detours-lanes-20230621.html
Thanks.
Could be a misprint or misunderstanding. The graphic below that statement shows 3 lanes available while the temp lanes are deconstructed.
I agree with this interpretation of the graphic. Where shoulders are shown, they are shaded, and none of the three lane widths in each direction have shading in the portion that shows the next phase.
This said, I don't know if the illustration actually came from PennDOT. It has two bylines: "Source: PennDot" [sic!] and "Steve Madden/Staff Artist."
QuoteQ. Do you want A or B?
A. Yes.
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 27, 2023, 11:25:07 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2023, 03:05:49 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 26, 2023, 02:59:53 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on June 26, 2023, 02:43:56 PMIt LOOKS like the "Temporary retaining wall" is just a couple of layers of wire mesh. It seems like the new structure would not require ANY offset. I cannot imagine that the new permanent outside portions will not be wide enough for 3ea 11ft lanes with no shoulder. (Which by the way is LESS than 2ea 12 foot lanes and a 10' shoulder.)
I frankly do not believe the claim that the next phase will have just two traffic lanes in each direction. I suspect the media organization that is putting that out is misunderstanding whatever PennDOT is telling them.
Where is this media claim anyway? I couldn't find it.
https://www.inquirer.com/news/i95-philadelphia-schedule-construction-reopen-detours-lanes-20230621.html
I mean, two lanes in each direction would still be better than zero...
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 27, 2023, 01:14:49 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 27, 2023, 11:25:07 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2023, 03:05:49 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 26, 2023, 02:59:53 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on June 26, 2023, 02:43:56 PMIt LOOKS like the "Temporary retaining wall" is just a couple of layers of wire mesh. It seems like the new structure would not require ANY offset. I cannot imagine that the new permanent outside portions will not be wide enough for 3ea 11ft lanes with no shoulder. (Which by the way is LESS than 2ea 12 foot lanes and a 10' shoulder.)
I frankly do not believe the claim that the next phase will have just two traffic lanes in each direction. I suspect the media organization that is putting that out is misunderstanding whatever PennDOT is telling them.
Where is this media claim anyway? I couldn't find it.
https://www.inquirer.com/news/i95-philadelphia-schedule-construction-reopen-detours-lanes-20230621.html
I mean, two lanes in each direction would still be better than zero...
I think we can interpret "these two lanes" as the outside two lanes and the shoulder. It would be wide enough as I have said for three 11-foot lanes and no shoulder.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 27, 2023, 01:14:49 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 27, 2023, 11:25:07 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 26, 2023, 03:05:49 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 26, 2023, 02:59:53 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on June 26, 2023, 02:43:56 PMIt LOOKS like the "Temporary retaining wall" is just a couple of layers of wire mesh. It seems like the new structure would not require ANY offset. I cannot imagine that the new permanent outside portions will not be wide enough for 3ea 11ft lanes with no shoulder. (Which by the way is LESS than 2ea 12 foot lanes and a 10' shoulder.)
I frankly do not believe the claim that the next phase will have just two traffic lanes in each direction. I suspect the media organization that is putting that out is misunderstanding whatever PennDOT is telling them.
Where is this media claim anyway? I couldn't find it.
https://www.inquirer.com/news/i95-philadelphia-schedule-construction-reopen-detours-lanes-20230621.html
I mean, two lanes in each direction would still be better than zero...
It would be a very serious chokepoint though. In the years of construction on 95 in the Philly area, they've only reduced the available lanes to three. For the volume of traffic in the area, two lanes would be a major congestion issue. They would have been better off making the temporary roadway 2 lanes each way and giving themselves enough room for a wider bridge in the first phase.
To the east side there is room to build a temporary freeway using the NB on and off ramps along with the grass area to the side. I'm surprised that wasn't considered.
Quote from: roadman65 on June 27, 2023, 08:32:54 PM
To the east side there is room to build a temporary freeway using the NB on and off ramps along with the grass area to the side. I'm surprised that wasn't considered.
Looking at it, it appears workable. They could have taken down the jersey barrier and make a temporary crossover in that area. It would have forced the closure of the ramp from Princeton & Minor Streets though, and reduced access to the reconstruction site. They probably had numerous ideas on the table and this one could have been an option, but ultimately they went with the fill method.
Updated CE Expert System entry on this. (https://www.dotdom2.state.pa.us/ceea/ceeamain03.nsf/18c042d1dacb327c85256c010051898b/85257fc4007728ec852589d70051458f?OpenDocument)
PennDOT - District 6 News: Beam Setting Scheduled Next Week on New Bridge to Replace Fire-Damaged Bridge on I-95 at Cottman Avenue (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/regionaloffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=8622)
Quote from: 74/171FAN on August 25, 2023, 05:14:52 PM
PennDOT - District 6 News: Beam Setting Scheduled Next Week on New Bridge to Replace Fire-Damaged Bridge on I-95 at Cottman Avenue (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/regionaloffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=8622)
Should that be called "lightning fast"?
The PennDOT Way Blog has posted an article has of August 14th with updates on the permanent fix. (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/PennDOTWay/Pages/Article.aspx?post=657)
Quote from: 74/171FAN on August 29, 2023, 11:46:56 AM
The PennDOT Way Blog has posted an article has of August 14th with updates on the permanent fix. (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/PennDOTWay/Pages/Article.aspx?post=657)
So they are doing a few things I was expecting:
Replacing the abutment wall which the truck crashed into.
Rebuilding the outer lanes 3 lanes wide.
I imagine they could build and open the west side's (95 SB) lanes first since that wall wasn't impacted, although the way the temporary roadway was built I can't see a time benefit of doing so since they can't really tear down the temporary roadway on one side only.
QuoteExcessive speeding contributes to work zone crashes across Pennsylvania, and motorists have been consistently traveling 10-15 MPH above the posted speed limit through this work zone. Automated Work Zone Speed Enforcement is deployed in this work zone. PennDOT reminds drivers to slow down in work zones.
This was mentioned in the article, and they use a little 'slight of hand' wording. To a quick reader, people are going too fast thru the work zone and causing crashes. But the sentence doesn't say that - it just says (Point 1) crashes occur across Pennsylvania and (Point 2) motorists are speeding thru this work zone. No reference as to how many crashes have occurred...if any. In actuality, I don't think they would be concerned if traffic was moving at 55 or 60 thru here (10-15 above the limit). I would believe traffic is moving *much* faster - 70 and 75 mph in the 45 mph work zone, and that's the real reason to try to get people to slow down...by
encouraging them to drive slower and safely giving them a ticket 3 weeks after they travelled thru here.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on August 25, 2023, 05:14:52 PM
PennDOT - District 6 News: Beam Setting Scheduled Next Week on New Bridge to Replace Fire-Damaged Bridge on I-95 at Cottman Avenue (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/regionaloffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=8622)
PennDOT - Statewide News: Shapiro Administration Marks I-95 Reconstruction Milestone as Steel Beams are Set on the Southbound Lanes (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/pages/all-news-details.aspx?newsid=1071)
(Also for PA 73) PennDOT - District 6 News: Lane Closure Planned Monday Night for I-95 Permanent Reconstruction at Cottman Avenue in Northeast Philadelphia (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/regionaloffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=8721)
PennDOT - Statewide News: 'Fixed this jawn. Join the team.' PennDOT Kicks off Recruitment Campaign Highlighting I-95 Response, Encouraging Pennsylvanians to Join the Team Getting Stuff Done across the Commonwealth (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/pages/all-news-details.aspx?newsid=1083)
(For PA 73) PennDOT - District 6 News: Paving Planned Thursday Night for I-95 Permanent Reconstruction at Cottman Avenue in Northeast Philadelphia (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/RegionalOffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=8767)
(For PA 73) PennDOT - District 6 News: I-95 Traffic Shifts Next Week Mark Completion of First Stage of Reconstruction on New Permanent Bridge at Cottman Avenue (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/RegionalOffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=8836)
PennDOT - Statewide News: Shapiro Administration Marks I-95 Milestone: First Section of New Bridge Completed Ahead of Schedule (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/pages/all-news-details.aspx?newsid=1091)
CE Expert System: I-95 over Cottman Ave(Permanent Repairs) (https://www.dotdom2.state.pa.us/ceea/ceeamain03.nsf/18c042d1dacb327c85256c010051898b/85257fc4007728ec85258a15006c8e30?OpenDocument)
PennDOT - District 6 News: Paving Planned Next Thursday Night for I-95 Permanent Reconstruction at Cottman Avenue in Northeast Philadelphia (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/regionaloffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=9077)
(For PA 73) PennDOT - District 6 News: Paving Planned Tuesday Night for I-95 Permanent Reconstruction at Cottman Avenue in Northeast Philadelphia (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/RegionalOffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=9092)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/KTvAQh6Dee5cQiYz8
They had the closures mentioned on a VMS on the PA Turnpike as far west as Carlisle. The GSV car captured it going through at the time.
(For PA 73) PennDOT - District 6 News: Paving Planned Tuesday Night for I-95 Permanent Reconstruction at Cottman Avenue in Northeast Philadelphia (https://www.penndot.pa.gov/regionaloffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=9144)