Part of overpass on I-95 in NE Philly collapses after tanker fire

[famartin]

Poor US 1 and I-295 and US 130...

Eh, that's honestly probably not too horribly burdened... if you are heading south on the turnpike, presumably you'd either stay on the Nj turnpike or the PA turnpike.

[ilpt4u]

Poor US 1 and I-295 and US 130...

Eh, that's honestly probably not too horribly burdened... if you are heading south on the turnpike, presumably you'd either stay on the Nj turnpike or the PA turnpike.

Hopefully the NJTP is advertising the closure along the TP via VMS, and same for NJDOT along I-295 and other routes

[kalvado]

https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philly-overpass-tanker/13368736/

Truck was under the overpass from northbound exit 30 to Cottman Avenue (Tacony neighborhood). Looks like this was a relatively new overpass (GSV shows it in by 2016) but I guess you can't exactly design for high temperature fires all the time.

While high (and low) temperature are pretty bad for steel, and hard to design for (cough... world trade center), I have a different question about all this.  I wonder if there was a reason for the driver to stop under the bridge? The only way to get where he ended up is by taking exit 30 from the highway.  Stopping literally 100 feet earlier would leave the fire burn in the open; pulling another 100' forward would be a fire in the middle of an intersection...
Of course, it's possible that driver noted something in a rear view during the turn off-ramp, and didn't think much about anything else...

I believe the truck driver took the ramp too fast, hit the bridge abutment, crashed, and stopped disabled under the overpass. It wasn't a case where the truck just suddenly caught fire in mid-travel and the driver decided to abandon it under an overpass.

Now that is the way to end trucking career!

[Dough4872]

https://www5.septa.org/bulletins/until-further-notice-septa-is-adding-extra-capacity-and-service-due-to-i-95-bridge-collapse/ SEPTA will be adding extra capacity and trains to the Trenton, West Trenton, and Fox Chase lines to help commuters affected by the closure.

[bwana39]

The I-40 bridge in Oklahoma was 2 months and it was presumed to be extraordinarily fast. They got lucky because a vendor had a set of (prestressed concrete) beams in process for another project that was less than an inch different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-40_bridge_disaster

That is the whole thing here. Are there any steel beams that meet or exceed the requirements available to fabricate the replacements from?  Once they get the steel and details cut, you can probably have them welded / drilled in a matter of weeks. A week or two to assemble them on site. Then 2-3 weeks for the concrete work. If (and that is a big IF, ) the steel to build the beam assemblies  out of is readily available, you might could make this happen in 6-weeks. If the beams have to be imported or forged / extruded, you can be adding months to this project. It could be as little as 5-6 weeks, more likely 8-10 weeks or even longer if the materials are not ready.

The Hernando DeSoto Bridge repair (Memphis) took over 10 weeks in a breakneck 24-hrs process.

I would expect that both NB & SB will have to be replaced. Hopefully the damage to the adjacent spans and the bents are minimal if at all.

[roadman65]

https://goo.gl/maps/uNprLN8HYJCDfrqW9
A GSV image of the structure. The news got it wrong. It's not Cottman Avenue proper. It's the ramp to it from I-95 NB.

[jeffandnicole]

Luckily steel beams can be formed pretty quickly, and being this was replaced not too long ago, as-built plans are readily available. One of their emergency contractors were probably already chosen today and this will most likely be moving quickly this week to get this project started.

[Rothman]

Luckily steel beams can be formed pretty quickly, and being this was replaced not too long ago, as-built plans are readily available. One of their emergency contractors were probably already chosen today and this will most likely be moving quickly this week to get this project started.

Not really.  Steel delivery times are currently quite long in the area.

I suppose a premium will be made to get to the front of the line somewhere, though.

[jeffandnicole]

https://goo.gl/maps/uNprLN8HYJCDfrqW9
A GSV image of the structure. The news got it wrong. It's not Cottman Avenue proper. It's the ramp to it from I-95 NB.

There's a shitload of news reports about it. Which one are you referring to? It's the Cottman Ave offramp, so any reference to Cottman Ave/PA 73/Exit 30 is close enough.

[jeffandnicole]

Luckily steel beams can be formed pretty quickly, and being this was replaced not too long ago, as-built plans are readily available. One of their emergency contractors were probably already chosen today and this will most likely be moving quickly this week to get this project started.

Not really.  Steel delivery times are currently quite long in the area.

I suppose a premium will be made to get to the front of the line somewhere, though.

Sounds a bit different from what I said. Beams can be formed quickly,  correct?

[LilianaUwU]

They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?

The technology you keep trying to push is only good in an ideal world, Kernals.

Impact font memes in 2023. Sure, buddy.

Can you make it even smaller?

I can try.

[roadman65]

https://goo.gl/maps/uNprLN8HYJCDfrqW9
A GSV image of the structure. The news got it wrong. It's not Cottman Avenue proper. It's the ramp to it from I-95 NB.

There's a shitload of news reports about it. Which one are you referring to? It's the Cottman Ave offramp, so any reference to Cottman Ave/PA 73/Exit 30 is close enough.

The one in the OP link.

[Max Rockatansky]

They say the bridge will be closed for weeks. But can't they use accelerated bridge construction and replace it in a day or two?

The technology you keep trying to push is only good in an ideal world, Kernals.

Impact font memes in 2023. Sure, buddy.

I'm more taken aback at kernals calling himself a clown.  That's some unexpected introspectiveness.

[Dough4872]

https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philly-overpass-tanker/13368736/ Updates from 6abc, looks like the closure of I-95 will last for "several months" . Governor Shapiro plans to issue a disaster declaration tomorrow.

[ixnay]

https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philly-overpass-tanker/13368736/ Updates from 6abc, looks like the closure of I-95 will last for "several months" \. Governor Shapiro plans to issue a disaster declaration tomorrow.

As did the 1996 closure. 

Philly is a bastion of organized labor.  As the poster of post #8 of https://www.city-data.com/forum/philadelphia/3423857-portion-interstate-95-collapses-philadelphia-after.html suggests... well, this repair might get d r a w n out.

OTOH Georgia is IIRC a RTW state.  Did that help expedite the I-85 repair process?

[hbelkins]

and hard to design for (cough... world trade center)

Almost nothing can be designed for someone intentionally trying to destroy it. The World Trade Center in particular was designed to survive accidental hits for those intending to land at an airport in New York but encountering too much fog (i.e. fuel almost empty).

This tanker fire wasn't intentional, but it collapsed anyway.

If you will, a very tangential argument would be that WTC steel had fire protection, while road bridges steel usually doesn't. I suspect cost (primarily extra weight of the structure) vs benefit (one accident in decade?) would likely be on a wrong side...

WTC also used asbestos.  I wonder if people would approve of DOTs spraying all their bridges with the stuff.

As far as I understand, today they are still spraying concrete on steel - and I would think without asbestos. Not sure if there are any other additives like mineral fiber, but  asbestos is definitely not there.

Asbestos abatement is called for in a number of Kentucky's bridge replacement projects.

https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philly-overpass-tanker/13368736/ Updates from 6abc, looks like the closure of I-95 will last for "several months" . Governor Shapiro plans to issue a disaster declaration tomorrow.

As did the 1996 closure. 

Philly is a bastion of organized labor.  As the poster of post #8 of https://www.city-data.com/forum/philadelphia/3423857-portion-interstate-95-collapses-philadelphia-after.html suggests... well, this repair might get d r a w n out.

OTOH Georgia is IIRC a RTW state.  Did that help expedite the I-85 repair process?

I'm sure federal prevailing wage requirements will be in effect for this project, even though the truck's insurance company will ultimately be responsible for the costs.

[Rothman]

and hard to design for (cough... world trade center)

Almost nothing can be designed for someone intentionally trying to destroy it. The World Trade Center in particular was designed to survive accidental hits for those intending to land at an airport in New York but encountering too much fog (i.e. fuel almost empty).

This tanker fire wasn't intentional, but it collapsed anyway.

If you will, a very tangential argument would be that WTC steel had fire protection, while road bridges steel usually doesn't. I suspect cost (primarily extra weight of the structure) vs benefit (one accident in decade?) would likely be on a wrong side...

WTC also used asbestos.  I wonder if people would approve of DOTs spraying all their bridges with the stuff.

As far as I understand, today they are still spraying concrete on steel - and I would think without asbestos. Not sure if there are any other additives like mineral fiber, but  asbestos is definitely not there.

Asbestos abatement is called for in a number of Kentucky's bridge replacement projects.

https://6abc.com/interstate-95-collapse-i-95-fire-philly-overpass-tanker/13368736/ Updates from 6abc, looks like the closure of I-95 will last for "several months" . Governor Shapiro plans to issue a disaster declaration tomorrow.

As did the 1996 closure. 

Philly is a bastion of organized labor.  As the poster of post #8 of https://www.city-data.com/forum/philadelphia/3423857-portion-interstate-95-collapses-philadelphia-after.html suggests... well, this repair might get d r a w n out.

OTOH Georgia is IIRC a RTW state.  Did that help expedite the I-85 repair process?

I'm sure federal prevailing wage requirements will be in effect for this project, even though the truck's insurance company will ultimately be responsible for the costs.

Is the abatement needed for coating of the steel or due to utility lines running along the bridge?

[bwana39]

Sounds a bit different from what I said. Beams can be formed quickly,  correct?

Yes, but....

You have to have the ingots in an alloy that meets or exceeds the requirement. You have to tool the extruder or forge to make the correct size and configuration of beam. If you had proper ingots in the soaking oven you could PROBABLy have the beams in a week, less if you don't worry about quality checks. Our US capacity to make large beam stock domestically is literally 25% of what it was in the 1970's. Imported steel has riddled the US Steel industry. Until the 1980's you could have had the material needed custom manufactured at either Port Arthur Texas or Bethlehem PA.  Most of the Beam stock made in the US today is from Nucor.  It has neither the capacity nor the flexibility that the legacy US plants would have had.


I would suggest a minimum of a month if everything goes smoothly. I might suggest one "perhaps", . If the state of PA uses a standardized or generic beam stock for lots of different bridges, they may have either stock or manufacturer's reserve and the bare beams will not have to be manufactured.


Then there are details that have to be fabricated and attached to the beams. After you finally get the beams installed ,then you have to start work on the concrete. First the deck, then the barriers. Eventually you have to stripe it and get it ready.

EVEN if the correct beams are available in the USA, you are still looking at 6-8 weeks if construction starts tomorrow.

[jeffandnicole]

Notice that not a single person has said "oh, if we only had the green detour route signage to follow to get around the collapse".  Biggest waste of signage in PA.

[Dough4872]

Notice that not a single person has said "oh, if we only had the green detour route signage to follow to get around the collapse".  Biggest waste of signage in PA.

Those color-coded detour routes are better suited to short-term incidents where a quick detour onto nearby parallel surface roads would suffice. However, a long-term detour onto such roads would strain the local road network and more planning is needed to establish detours onto roads better suited to handle the traffic volume for an extended closure. As mentioned in this thread, there are many alternate routes to I-95 for both local and long-distance traffic.

[jeffandnicole]

Notice that not a single person has said "oh, if we only had the green detour route signage to follow to get around the collapse".  Biggest waste of signage in PA.

Those color-coded detour routes are better suited to short-term incidents where a quick detour onto nearby parallel surface roads would suffice. However, a long-term detour onto such roads would strain the local road network and more planning is needed to establish detours onto roads better suited to handle the traffic volume for an extended closure. As mentioned in this thread, there are many alternate routes to I-95 for both local and long-distance traffic.

The point is, they've never once been mentioned. And good luck finding any situation anywhere in the state where they've been used.

[roadman65]

Well Michigan shuts down freeways on purpose to replace bridges. If the Detroit area gets by without I-75, I'm sure Philly can handle it.

[storm2k]

Poor US 1 and I-295 and US 130...

Eh, that's honestly probably not too horribly burdened... if you are heading south on the turnpike, presumably you'd either stay on the Nj turnpike or the PA turnpike.

Hopefully the NJTP is advertising the closure along the TP via VMS, and same for NJDOT along I-295 and other routes

NJDOT had messages on the signs on 287 in the Middlesex/Somerset area today. I'll bet they'll have them on every sign on every major roadway for a while.

[74/171FAN]

Notice that not a single person has said "oh, if we only had the green detour route signage to follow to get around the collapse".  Biggest waste of signage in PA.

Those color-coded detour routes are better suited to short-term incidents where a quick detour onto nearby parallel surface roads would suffice. However, a long-term detour onto such roads would strain the local road network and more planning is needed to establish detours onto roads better suited to handle the traffic volume for an extended closure. As mentioned in this thread, there are many alternate routes to I-95 for both local and long-distance traffic.

The point is, they've never once been mentioned. And good luck finding any situation anywhere in the state where they've been used.

The only time I saw it used was in 2015 or so when I was heading south on I-81, and it was closed for an incident south of PA 233 (Exit 37).

[GaryV]

Well Michigan shuts down freeways on purpose to replace bridges. If the Detroit area gets by without I-75, I'm sure Philly can handle it.

When has I-75 (or any other urban freeway in Michigan) been shut down for more than a weekend or few days?