Major League sports expansion sites

[dvferyance]

I beg to differ with Montreal.  The reason they lost the Expos is they played in an absolute dump of a ballpark, and couldn't get a new ballpark built.  I've been to the Vet, and Stade Olympique made the Vet seem like Fenway or Wrigley.  I would say only The Trop is as bad, and if the Rays can't get a new  ballpark built, they will suffer the same fate.  A stadium with improved turf and a retractable roof THAT WORKS would draw fans to the ballpark.  And with Montreal being less than an hour from far upstate NY and northern VT, if you put Les Expos Nouveau in the same division as the Red Sox and Yankees, you could draw Red Sox and Yankees fans 9 or 10 times a year that would prefer to make the short drive to see their team play rather than travelling the 5-6 hours to Boston or NYC.  I watched the 2 exhibition games there a couple of years ago between the Jays and Red Sox, and that place was filled to the rafters.  There is a support site for the movement:

http://www.montrealbaseballproject.com/en/   

Then Canada should just get it's own baseball league then if Montreal really is this big baseball town that you claim it is. They no longer allow us to be a part of the CFL it should work both ways. They coulnd't get a ballpark built becasue there was no support for one anyways. So what if there is a website. Anyone can launch a website to promote anything they want. Doesn't mean there is a realistic chance of it happening. The Rays stadium isn't even 30 years old. Why do we keep replacing stadiums before they have served their useful life? I don't get it. The Georgia Dome and the RCA Dome all could have lasted at least another 5 more years.

The Rays stadium is a complete joke for a baseball stadium and was when it was brand new. Olympic Stadium wasn't 30 years old yet either when the Expos left.

Is it a joke just becasue it has a stationary roof and has turf? I do like retractable stadiums for baseball however I think they are a waste of money for football.

[Flint1979]

I beg to differ with Montreal.  The reason they lost the Expos is they played in an absolute dump of a ballpark, and couldn't get a new ballpark built.  I've been to the Vet, and Stade Olympique made the Vet seem like Fenway or Wrigley.  I would say only The Trop is as bad, and if the Rays can't get a new  ballpark built, they will suffer the same fate.  A stadium with improved turf and a retractable roof THAT WORKS would draw fans to the ballpark.  And with Montreal being less than an hour from far upstate NY and northern VT, if you put Les Expos Nouveau in the same division as the Red Sox and Yankees, you could draw Red Sox and Yankees fans 9 or 10 times a year that would prefer to make the short drive to see their team play rather than travelling the 5-6 hours to Boston or NYC.  I watched the 2 exhibition games there a couple of years ago between the Jays and Red Sox, and that place was filled to the rafters.  There is a support site for the movement:

http://www.montrealbaseballproject.com/en/   

Then Canada should just get it's own baseball league then if Montreal really is this big baseball town that you claim it is. They no longer allow us to be a part of the CFL it should work both ways. They coulnd't get a ballpark built becasue there was no support for one anyways. So what if there is a website. Anyone can launch a website to promote anything they want. Doesn't mean there is a realistic chance of it happening. The Rays stadium isn't even 30 years old. Why do we keep replacing stadiums before they have served their useful life? I don't get it. The Georgia Dome and the RCA Dome all could have lasted at least another 5 more years.

The Rays stadium is a complete joke for a baseball stadium and was when it was brand new. Olympic Stadium wasn't 30 years old yet either when the Expos left.

Is it a joke just becasue it has a stationary roof and has turf? I do like retractable stadiums for baseball however I think they are a waste of money for football.

That's most of it I don't like dome stadiums . It's basically a cookie cutter Stadium though. I'm not a fan of Rogers Centre in Toronto either. Another ballpark that is open-air and has a grass field that needs to be replaced is Oakland. Other than that I think most of the ballparks are fine.

[triplemultiplex]

I do like retractable stadiums for baseball however I think they are a waste of money for football.

Agreed.
The NFL stadiums with retractable roofs are almost never open-air for games.  Even in freakin' Arizona.
"Uh were gonna keep it closed so it's louder."
Oh okay.  Good thing you spent 80 million bucks (or whatever) on this elaborate mechanism you're not fucking using because you think you might get an extra 5 yard penalty in your favor.  Money well spent.

With baseball, a team is hosting 81 games a year.  They are going to encounter a wider variety of weather conditions over a 6 month regular season.  It provides fans with certainty that they will get to see the game they bought tickets for while at the same time give them the open air experience baseball was meant for if it's nice out.
Which isn't to say every team 'needs' a baseball stadium with a retractable roof.  It's merely a way better value for baseball teams than it is for football teams.

[SP Cook]

Agreed.
The NFL stadiums with retractable roofs are almost never open-air for games.  Even in freakin' Arizona.
"Uh were gonna keep it closed so it's louder."
Oh okay.  Good thing you spent 80 million bucks (or whatever) on this elaborate mechanism you're not fucking using because you think you might get an extra 5 yard penalty in your favor.  Money well spent.

With baseball, a team is hosting 81 games a year.  They are going to encounter a wider variety of weather conditions over a 6 month regular season.  It provides fans with certainty that they will get to see the game they bought tickets for while at the same time give them the open air experience baseball was meant for if it's nice out.
Which isn't to say every team 'needs' a baseball stadium with a retractable roof.  It's merely a way better value for baseball teams than it is for football teams.

Excellent post.  The other issue, as we have seen in St. Petersburg and elsewhere, is that baseball simply lends itself to outdoor play when possible, and many fans do not enjoy games in a permanent indoor facility when the weather is good.

[Flint1979]

Agreed.
The NFL stadiums with retractable roofs are almost never open-air for games.  Even in freakin' Arizona.
"Uh were gonna keep it closed so it's louder."
Oh okay.  Good thing you spent 80 million bucks (or whatever) on this elaborate mechanism you're not fucking using because you think you might get an extra 5 yard penalty in your favor.  Money well spent.

With baseball, a team is hosting 81 games a year.  They are going to encounter a wider variety of weather conditions over a 6 month regular season.  It provides fans with certainty that they will get to see the game they bought tickets for while at the same time give them the open air experience baseball was meant for if it's nice out.
Which isn't to say every team 'needs' a baseball stadium with a retractable roof.  It's merely a way better value for baseball teams than it is for football teams.

Excellent post.  The other issue, as we have seen in St. Petersburg and elsewhere, is that baseball simply lends itself to outdoor play when possible, and many fans do not enjoy games in a permanent indoor facility when the weather is good.

I can understand why but in the northern US a baseball stadium with a retractable roof is nice due to April games in the freezing cold. I'd rather go watch a Brewers game in Milwaukee for that reason.

[1995hoo]

Elliotte Friedman reports a group from Seattle submitted an NHL expansion application plus the $10 million application fee today. Arena renovation deal is in place too.

[Bruce]

Elliotte Friedman reports a group from Seattle submitted an NHL expansion application plus the $10 million application fee today. Arena renovation deal is in place too.

The arena renovation still has to go through a few of the Seattle processes. I highly doubt it will get done in 2020 like they claim.

[Desert Man]

Elliotte Friedman reports a group from Seattle submitted an NHL expansion application plus the $10 million application fee today. Arena renovation deal is in place too.

The arena renovation still has to go through a few of the Seattle processes. I highly doubt it will get done in 2020 like they claim.

They will get the NBA back, the Supersonics 2.0 could lift off in the new sports arena, along with the Totems NHL upgrade if this was approved by the NHL. I predict Vegas gets the 32nd NBA team, just like they have the 31st NHL team (Golden Knights) in the newly-opened T-Mobile Arena.

[Hurricane Rex]

Huge movement to bring MLB to Portland. Ok, I know this is an exxageration but with the community really wants it and there is local media attention on it.

LG-TP260

Oops I forgot one of the countless links: https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2018/04/major_league_baseball_backers.amp

[Desert Man]

NBA ALIGNMENT if the Seattle Supersonics 2.0 and the Vegas (Silver Knights?) came to existence. I predict Virginia Beach Squires 2.0 and New Jersey Swamp Dragons will be in the eastern conference, so it evens the number with the western conference: 17 each. And they are back to 2 divisions each, since my fantasy version has a few adjustments.

EASTERN
ATLANTIC: Boston, Brooklyn, Cleveland, New Jersey (new), New York, Philadelphia, Toronto, Virginia (new), Washington.
MID-AMERICA: Atlanta, Charlotte, Chicago, Detroit, Indiana, Miami, Milwaukee, Orlando.

WESTERN
PACIFIC: Golden State, LA Clippers, LA Lakers, Las Vegas (new), Phoenix, Portland, Sacramento, Seattle (new), Utah.
CENTRAL: Dallas, Denver, Houston, Memphis, Minnesota, New Orleans, Oklahoma City, San Antonio.

[abefroman329]

All that said, I'd sooner see a 2nd Chicagoland Hockey team at one of the existing Arenas -- either out in Rosemont/O'Hare area at the Allstate Arena, or in Hoffman Estates at the Sears Center. But I don't see the Blackhawks being in a big hurry to share the Market.

Allstate Arena already has a hockey team: The Chicago Wolves.

The Sears Centre was home to an ECHL team, the Chicago Express, but they folded due to poor attendance.  Unsurprising, given the arena's proximity to Rosemont.

[jp the roadgeek]

I don't think the NBA expands beyond 32 teams.  32 is a nice round number that you can either go with 8 4-team divisions or 4 8-team divisions.  Pretty much a foregone conclusion that Seattle gets one of them, and Vega$ probably gets the other, unless they decide to put a team in Newark instead. I just don't see how a team in Virginia would work, given it's proximity to both DC and Charlotte.   Here are two potential realignment scenarios:

Eastern Conference:

Atlantic: BOS, BKN, NYK, PHI                                               
East: CLE, DET, TOR, WAS
Southeast: ATL, CHA, MIA, ORL
Central: CHI, IND, MIL, MIN

Western Conference

Northwest: DEN, POR, SEA, UTA
Southwest: DAL, LV, OKC, PHX
Gulf Coast: MEM, HOU, NO, SA
Pacific: GS, LAC, LAL, SAC

If NJ replaces LV, NJ goes Atlantic, PHI goes Eastern, DET goes central, MIN goes Northwest, and Utah goes Southwest

With 4 8-team divisions

Eastern: BOS, BKN, CHA, MIA, NYK, ORL, PHI, WAS
Central: ATL, CHI, CLE, DET, IND, MEM, MIL, TOR
Midwest: DAL, DEN, HOU, MIN, NO, OKC, SA, UTA
Pacific: GS, LAC, LAL, LV, PHX, POR, SAC, SEA

If NJ replaces LV, NJ goes Eastern, CHA goes gentral, MEM goes Midwest, and UTA goes Pacific. 

[dvferyance]

NBA ALIGNMENT if the Seattle Supersonics 2.0 and the Vegas (Silver Knights?) came to existence. I predict Virginia Beach Squires 2.0 and New Jersey Swamp Dragons will be in the eastern conference, so it evens the number with the western conference: 17 each. And they are back to 2 divisions each, since my fantasy version has a few adjustments.

EASTERN
ATLANTIC: Boston, Brooklyn, Cleveland, New Jersey (new), New York, Philadelphia, Toronto, Virginia (new), Washington.
MID-AMERICA: Atlanta, Charlotte, Chicago, Detroit, Indiana, Miami, Milwaukee, Orlando.

WESTERN
PACIFIC: Golden State, LA Clippers, LA Lakers, Las Vegas (new), Phoenix, Portland, Sacramento, Seattle (new), Utah.
CENTRAL: Dallas, Denver, Houston, Memphis, Minnesota, New Orleans, Oklahoma City, San Antonio.

Vegas is not getting an NBA team since they already have an NHL team. Aside from Seattle the other city in the west likely to get a team would be KC. Why NJ in the east? There is already the Knicks and the Nets close by.

[texaskdog]

I can’t see MLB expanding beyond 32 teams. There just aren’t enough quality pitchers as it is.

It was 16 for decades and with population growth and integration there are many more players available.  It's just not as popular a sport as it used to be.

[texaskdog]

MLB to Austin!

-One of the best drawing cities in AAA (Round Rock)
-Austin is the 31st biggest MSA in the US, and grew by 23% in the last 7 years, so moving up fast
-Austin has no major league team, untapped market, unless you count professional college football
-Austin won't get an NFL team (two in Texas, if anyone got the 3rd it would be SA), NBA team (3 in Texas already), maybe an NHL but we're south so makes no sense.  MLB is the best option.

[Flint1979]

Not just any city can support both an NHL and NBA team regardless of population. Atlanta is a prime example of this. The only cities that can support both an NBA and NHL team are the biggest markets in the country. Vegas wouldn't be able to support the NBA.

[tchafe1978]

Sometimes it isn't just about population when it comes to supporting a team. Atlanta is a top 10 market but failed twice with the NHL simply because the fan base isn't there to support hockey. Detroit and Phoenix are slightly smaller markets yet are able to support all 4 sports because the fan base is established, although it's debatable how well Phoenix supports its NHL team.

[texaskdog]

Sometimes it isn't just about population when it comes to supporting a team. Atlanta is a top 10 market but failed twice with the NHL simply because the fan base isn't there to support hockey. Detroit and Phoenix are slightly smaller markets yet are able to support all 4 sports because the fan base is established, although it's debatable how well Phoenix supports its NHL team.

True, I don't agree when people make the argument about "they have 3 teams they can't support a 4th" because they are different sports. 

[Henry]

FWIW, St. Louis failed twice with the NFL (Cardinals and Rams), and is now resenting the two owners who moved their respective teams west (Bill Bidwill and Stan Kroenke). Furthermore, the baseball Cardinals remain the top draw, which the football Cardinals could never hope to achieve in their 28 years there.

[Stephane Dumas]

FWIW, St. Louis failed twice with the NFL (Cardinals and Rams), and is now resenting the two owners who moved their respective teams west (Bill Bidwill and Stan Kroenke). Furthermore, the baseball Cardinals remain the top draw, which the football Cardinals could never hope to achieve in their 28 years there.

And St. Louis was once the home of a 2nd baseball team, the St. Louis Browns who moved to Baltimore and became the Orioles in 1953. The only club who moved eastward while the A's, Dodgers and Giants moved westward and the Braves southward.

If and when the St. Louis Blues will win the Stanley Cup, I wonder which street will be use for the parade?

[abefroman329]

The only club who moved eastward while the A's, Dodgers and Giants moved westward and the Braves southward.

I don't think it was too long after that when the Seattle Pilots moved eastward to become the Milwaukee Brewers.

[Flint1979]

Sometimes it isn't just about population when it comes to supporting a team. Atlanta is a top 10 market but failed twice with the NHL simply because the fan base isn't there to support hockey. Detroit and Phoenix are slightly smaller markets yet are able to support all 4 sports because the fan base is established, although it's debatable how well Phoenix supports its NHL team.

Well the Coyotes are consistently at the bottom of attendance for the NHL. The Suns and Diamondbacks are middle of the pack teams in attendance in their leagues. Detroit though is a very established sports city, the Pistons are the newest team and they came to the area in the late 50's. The Lions weren't originally in Detroit but are established there and the Tigers and Red Wings are pretty much charter teams to their leagues.

[Flint1979]

Sometimes it isn't just about population when it comes to supporting a team. Atlanta is a top 10 market but failed twice with the NHL simply because the fan base isn't there to support hockey. Detroit and Phoenix are slightly smaller markets yet are able to support all 4 sports because the fan base is established, although it's debatable how well Phoenix supports its NHL team.

True, I don't agree when people make the argument about "they have 3 teams they can't support a 4th" because they are different sports.

Well the NBA and NHL seasons are at the same time. Most of the population isn't going to go to both sports when you have two leagues competing against each other for fan draw regardless if they are different sports or not. It's competition and some markets can't support having both the NBA and NHL in their market.

[SP Cook]

I don't think it was too long after that when the Seattle Pilots moved eastward to become the Milwaukee Brewers.

The Pilots moved in 1970, after existing for only one year.   Most of the baseball expansions were driven by self-interest (AKA greed) on the part of the owners.  The 1969 expansion (Seattle, Montreal, San Diego, and Kansas City) passed over many better markets, because the existing owners saw themselves relocating there. 

The 1969 expansion was rushed.  Kansas City was threatening political revenge or lawsuits over losing the A's following the 1967 season.  It insisted on a new team ASAP.  The original plan was to expand for 1973.   This rush caused problems.

Montreal had no adequate stadium, but planned to have one by 1973.  Then it got the 76 Olympics, which morphed the project into the architectural malpractice that is the Big Owe.  Had they waited to 1973, baseball would have either seen that Montreal was going ahead with the Olympics boondoggle and moved on to Plan B (Dallas), or not and had an adequate stadium  for day one, which would have saved the Expos. 

San Diego was woefully underfunded and as the saying goes "surrounded by uninhabitable desert to the east, the ocean to the west, Mexico to the south and the Dodgers to the north".  By 1974 it was on its way to Washington, only to be saved by Ray Kroc (McDonald's).  It remains a marginal franchise to this day.

Kansas City, always among the smallest sports markets, was forced to play four years in the A's rotting stadium. 

And Seattle.  Seattle had plans for what became the Kingdom, to be finished by 1973 (subsuquent NIMBYism and BANANAism tied it up until 1976).  Which was fine, but KC forced MLB's hand and the Pilots launched in tiny rotten Sick's Stadium (you cannot make a name like that up, apparently named for some guy named Sick).  Which held only 18K and was expanded with plywood and glue bleachers over the 1969 season, which only made things worse as it overburdened the plumbing and concessions.  The team could not draw flies and went bankrupt.  If it missed payroll, all players would be free agents in that era when the Reserve Clause still protected fans. 

In comes Bud (Light - Kennesaw Molehill) Selig.  A rich Milwaukee car dealer who was still smarting over the Braves' moving to Atlanta.  He had the cash to cover the payroll and thus made baseball an offer it could not refuse, forcing it to make a counter-intuitive move away from the (then) booming Seattle back to the Rust Belt.  Where the Brewers likewise ply away in a too small market.

[texaskdog]

FWIW, St. Louis failed twice with the NFL (Cardinals and Rams), and is now resenting the two owners who moved their respective teams west (Bill Bidwill and Stan Kroenke). Furthermore, the baseball Cardinals remain the top draw, which the football Cardinals could never hope to achieve in their 28 years there.

It's just that rare baseball town that is not much of a football town.