Illegal Drivers Behind High Hit-And-Run Rate In LA

[J N Winkler]

However, I think it would be foolish to assume that, were illegal immigrants to have valid driver's licenses and insurance coverage, they wouldn't flee the scene of an accident.  Unless it were written into the law that police officers responding to a car accident would not ask about immigration status, then they would still have something to fear.  Even with such a law, a good number of them would still flee the scene, either because they weren't aware of it or because they don't trust officers to actually abide by it.  Many would likely weight their options (flee the scene and probably have nothing happen, wait for police and risk the chance of being deported) and choose to flee.

These are all valid concerns and I can see that some of the possible methods for resolving them can be objected to on the basis of their amounting to a de facto amnesty policy.  Even so, I would still argue that the safety and risk-pooling benefits of ensuring that illegal immigrant drivers are fully integrated into the driver and vehicle licensing systems are compelling.  First, drivers who keep their insurance up to date reduce insurance rates for the rest of us.  (Most states regulate insurance on the basis of underwriting profit.  It is the difference between premiums and loss payouts, and regulators tend to fix it as a maximum percentage of the loss payouts.)  Second, not all collisions involve the police--if the crash is property-damage-only, the involved drivers frequently don't file reports even when the aggregate damage is above the reporting minimum for the state in which the collision occurs.  Third, if illegal immigrants are allowed to hold driver's licenses and buy insurance for their cars, then that gives moral legitimacy to aggressive tactics to crack down on illegal driving, such as spot checks (similar to sobriety checkpoints) of driver's licenses and insurance documentation, since those enforcement methods cannot be seen as backdoor deportation or population transfer.  Fourth, drivers who are licensed and insured--even if they are illegal immigrants--have a stake in the system and are less likely to cover for others who, regardless of their immigration status, are driving illegally.

[mgk920]

The last I heard, the USA recognizes most foreign-issued non-commercial driving licenses, so why don't they just use their licenses from back home?



Mike

[NE2]

The last I heard, the USA recognizes most foreign-issued non-commercial driving licenses, so why don't they just use their licenses from back home?

Gangsta rap made them do it.

[SP Cook]

Assuming a person who commits a crime every second of every day is going to buy insurance is laughable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US-border-notice.jpg

[NE2]

Assuming a kook is going to listen to argument is laughable.

[J N Winkler]

The last I heard, the USA recognizes most foreign-issued non-commercial driving licenses, so why don't they just use their licenses from back home?

A few reasons:

*  They might not have one, for a variety of reasons ranging from being part of a persecuted minority to not having the skill level needed to pass the licensing examinations (the latter is actually another reason to ensure that good and bad drivers who both happen to be illegal immigrants are not in the same boat in terms of not having driver's licenses).

*  Foreign licenses are not indefinitely valid for driving abroad.  In Britain, for example, you are legally entitled to drive on your foreign license only for an unbroken visit of up to one year; you must leave the country within the course of that year to reset the clock and retain your ability to drive on the foreign license.  In most US states this concessionary period is far shorter--generally on the order of 30 to 90 days.

*  It can be complex to insure a car on a foreign driver's license.

[kphoger]

The last I heard, the USA recognizes most foreign-issued non-commercial driving licenses, so why don't they just use their licenses from back home?

A few reasons:

*  They might not have one, for a variety of reasons ranging from being part of a persecuted minority to not having the skill level needed to pass the licensing examinations (the latter is actually another reason to ensure that good and bad drivers who both happen to be illegal immigrants are not in the same boat in terms of not having driver's licenses).

*  Foreign licenses are not indefinitely valid for driving abroad.  In Britain, for example, you are legally entitled to drive on your foreign license only for an unbroken visit of up to one year; you must leave the country within the course of that year to reset the clock and retain your ability to drive on the foreign license.  In most US states this concessionary period is far shorter--generally on the order of 30 to 90 days.

*  It can be complex to insure a car on a foreign driver's license.

Also:

(1) One is generally required by law to obtain a local driver's license within a short period of moving to the state.  When I moved to Kansas from Illinois, my DL was still going to be valid for a few more years.  However, by law, I had to trade it in for a Kansas license; I was even reminded of that fact within the first few months of living here by an officer who had pulled me over for speeding.

(2) Not only are foreign licenses not indefinitely valid for driving abroad, they're also not indefinitely valid period.  They're good for about three years or so; if the person had crossed the border at any point in time other than immediately after obtaining a DL, then it will be valid for an even shorter period.  Eventually, it's going to expire.

(3) Illegal immigrants were often quite poor back in their home country.  In México, poor people generally don't have their own car, and therefore no reason to obtain a driver's license.  Those who do have their own car and a valid DL generally have at least an average standard of living and possess the ability to manage their money and lives fairly well, and are therefore less likely to emigrate–especially illegally.

(4) Then there are those who came to this country with their parents when they were children.  They obviously don't have foreign DLs.

[agentsteel53]

Assuming a person who commits a crime every second of every day is going to buy insurance is laughable.

from another thread:

Anybody that believes that traffic cops don't wear seatbelts for the same reason that traffic cops drive 30 or 40 over (hint:  because they are arrogant hypocrites) lives in a fantasy world.

so wait, are you pro- or anti- a fascist state?  I just can't tell.

[vdeane]

Assuming a person who commits a crime every second of every day is going to buy insurance is laughable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US-border-notice.jpg

As was mentioned earlier, as famous as the desert crossings are, most illegal immigrants enter here legally... they just don't leave.

[Alps]

Assuming a person who commits a crime every second of every day is going to buy insurance is laughable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US-border-notice.jpg

As was mentioned earlier, as famous as the desert crossings are, most illegal immigrants enter here legally... they just don't leave.

Either way, if they cause an accident, they should be forcibly fined and deported.

[bugo]

My modest proposal is to tattoo any illegal caught in the US and send them back home.  If they show up again send them to prison for 25 years.  That would scare a lot of them away.

[Kacie Jane]

My modest proposal...

That's one of those phrases where you know whatever follows is exactly the opposite.  Like "No offense, but..."

[J N Winkler]

It is also an indirect reference to the original modest proposal (raising Irish babies for human consumption).

[StogieGuy7]

Assuming a person who commits a crime every second of every day is going to buy insurance is laughable.

from another thread:

Anybody that believes that traffic cops don't wear seatbelts for the same reason that traffic cops drive 30 or 40 over (hint:  because they are arrogant hypocrites) lives in a fantasy world.

so wait, are you pro- or anti- a fascist state?  I just can't tell.

It isn't facism when you're merely supporting the radical concept of having your government enforce the existing laws.  And this BS of "it's racist!" has to stop.  By that measure, Australia is the most racist state on Earth because their immigration laws are so strict.  And it is laughable when the president of Mexico comes to this country and criticizes us for not bestowing every single right of a U.S. citizen to their 'undocumenteds' who illegally live here while Mexico enforces very strict immigration policies against the rest of us.  OMG, talk about hypocrisy.

OK, rant on that over.   

As a factual matter, unskilled, unlicensed non-citizen drivers should not be allowed to drive on our roadways.  I can tell you from personal experience that driver's ed in countries such as Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, etc. is substandard.  Cultural practices that are common in many of those countries (particularly the poorer, rural areas) include drinking and driving, having multiple passengers (including children) ride unrestrained in the backs of pickup trucks, not using seatbelts, and generally driving in a poorly skilled manner. 

Those who immigrate legally from those nations and who obtain a green card are absolutely entitled to take our driver's ed courses, sit for the examination, and to be licensed like the rest of us.  Those who cannot do these things are an appalling hazard who should not be permitted on our roadways. 

[kphoger]

I can tell you from personal experience that driver's ed in countries such as Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, etc. is substandard.  Cultural practices that are common in many of those countries (particularly the poorer, rural areas) include drinking and driving, having multiple passengers (including children) ride unrestrained in the backs of pickup trucks, not using seatbelts, and generally driving in a poorly skilled manner. 

That sounds a lot like where I grew up in rural northwestern Kansas.  And I got my DL there without ever having taking a road test.

Let's say a person from Bolivia got his licence by simply paying money–no testing or education at all.  He can come here as a tourist and legally drive a car with his license, as a visitor.  How is that any different than the poor Honduran illegal immigrant you describe?

[vdeane]

As a factual matter, unskilled, unlicensed non-citizen drivers should not be allowed to drive on our roadways.  I can tell you from personal experience that driver's ed in countries such as Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, etc. is substandard.  Cultural practices that are common in many of those countries (particularly the poorer, rural areas) include drinking and driving, having multiple passengers (including children) ride unrestrained in the backs of pickup trucks, not using seatbelts, and generally driving in a poorly skilled manner. 

All the more reason to allow them to get licences.  Preventing them from getting a DL does not prevent them from driving.  It just causes them to illegally drive without a DL.  Do you really think that someone who doesn't mind being here illegally is going to mind driving illegally?  I'd rather that they be held to the same standards we hold everyone else rather than be "off the hook" as long as they don't get caught.  It's not like it costs a state anything to issue a DL; all the money is made back via fees.

And the sad fact is, the immigration issue is mixed in with racism.   There are many people who are against "illegal" immigration who are also against immigration period.  In fact, people like that are the reason our immigration system is broken in the first place - why do you think we have ethnic quotas, for example?

[StogieGuy7]

As a factual matter, unskilled, unlicensed non-citizen drivers should not be allowed to drive on our roadways.  I can tell you from personal experience that driver's ed in countries such as Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, etc. is substandard.  Cultural practices that are common in many of those countries (particularly the poorer, rural areas) include drinking and driving, having multiple passengers (including children) ride unrestrained in the backs of pickup trucks, not using seatbelts, and generally driving in a poorly skilled manner. 

All the more reason to allow them to get licences.  Preventing them from getting a DL does not prevent them from driving.  It just causes them to illegally drive without a DL.  Do you really think that someone who doesn't mind being here illegally is going to mind driving illegally?  I'd rather that they be held to the same standards we hold everyone else rather than be "off the hook" as long as they don't get caught.  It's not like it costs a state anything to issue a DL; all the money is made back via fees.

And the sad fact is, the immigration issue is mixed in with racism.   There are many people who are against "illegal" immigration who are also against immigration period.  In fact, people like that are the reason our immigration system is broken in the first place - why do you think we have ethnic quotas, for example?

I disagree.  If you can't get the person to apply for a visa to be here legally, how do you expect them to take a full drivers' ed course, and then to apply for (and pass) the exam? 

We're not having these issues with Klaus from Bremen who overstayed his student visa.  Klaus had to pass some pretty rigorous training in order to obtain a license to drive a car in Germany.  And, he could pass the average DMV driving test without breaking a sweat.  No, the issue is with those who hail from countries without adequate drivers ed training.  Where enforcement is lax and bribery on the highways is ubiquitous.   

I find that those who are in the country legally (with a visa) seem to have no problem obtaining a license.  They respect the law and do what is required to drive.  OTOH, those who are raising insurance rates in LA and Tucson are those who do not respect the law.  And let's skip the damn race card.  It's very tiresome.   It's not about race, it's about fairness.  If I could sneak into Mexico, sign up for government health care, social security and free food, I'd seriously think about it.  Of course, we all know that they do not put up with such silliness. 

Lastly, please tell me of any country in the world (aside from this one) that is stupid enough to give a drivers license (or other benefits) to people who lack the permission to live within it's borders. 

[J N Winkler]

I disagree.  If you can't get the person to apply for a visa to be here legally, how do you expect them to take a full drivers' ed course, and then to apply for (and pass) the exam?

If there is no verification of immigration status as part of the licensing procedure, then it is a hell of a lot easier to get a driver's license than it is to get a visa, since less documentation is required and quotas don't apply.

We're not having these issues with Klaus from Bremen who overstayed his student visa.  Klaus had to pass some pretty rigorous training in order to obtain a license to drive a car in Germany.  And, he could pass the average DMV driving test without breaking a sweat.  No, the issue is with those who hail from countries without adequate drivers ed training.  Where enforcement is lax and bribery on the highways is ubiquitous.

It is easier to attack those problems when the drivers involved can be integrated into the system in some way.  If you refuse them licenses and insurance on the sole basis that they don't have legal status, then they become phantoms, and only become visible when there is an expensive incident whose costs have to be borne by licensed and insured motorists.  On the other hand, illegal immigrants with insurance and valid driver's licenses contribute to the risk pool and can be reached by road safety education initiatives.

If I could sneak into Mexico, sign up for government health care, social security and free food, I'd seriously think about it.  Of course, we all know that they do not put up with such silliness.

But we don't use reciprocity as a policy guideline:  we try to do what is best for American society as a whole.  Maybe the Mexicans' system works for them; maybe it doesn't; either way it makes no sense for us to adopt a policy that disadvantages us simply because it is seemingly easier for Mexicans to come here and scrounge than it is for Americans to go to Mexico and scrounge (I don't think that is actually the case, BTW). 

Lastly, please tell me of any country in the world (aside from this one) that is stupid enough to give a drivers license (or other benefits) to people who lack the permission to live within its borders.

Where driver licenses are concerned, there are plenty of them.  There is no inherent reason for driver licensing to be linked to immigration status and in many countries it isn't.   I was able to get my driver's license in the UK without having to show I was legally resident (though I could have demonstrated leave to enter, had I been asked to do so).  And most wealthy countries provide a fairly large proportion of their public services on a community basis, without any need to demonstrate immigration status.  (Wouldn't it be a bit silly if libraries had to ask for your green card or whatever before they gave you a card?  Or if you had to show your green card before you were allowed to walk on the sidewalk, take your children to the public park, . . . .)  It is typically only subsistence payments, housing benefit, etc. that require some demonstration of status as a citizen or legal immigrant.

[kphoger]

I disagree.  If you can't get the person to apply for a visa to be here legally, how do you expect them to take a full drivers' ed course, and then to apply for (and pass) the exam? 

As has been mentioned, legally moving to the US is a pipe dream to the vast majority of Mexicans (and many other nationalities)–especially the poor.  There's a world of difference between obtaining a US resident visa and obtaining a DL.  Seriously?

We're not having these issues with Klaus from Bremen who overstayed his student visa.  Klaus had to pass some pretty rigorous training in order to obtain a license to drive a car in Germany.  And, he could pass the average DMV driving test without breaking a sweat.  No, the issue is with those who hail from countries without adequate drivers ed training.  Where enforcement is lax and bribery on the highways is ubiquitous.   

Do you speak from recent personal experience on Mexican highways, or have you simply heard stories?  Whence comes your expertise regarding the Mexican driver's education program?  Bribery on Mexican roads is more common than here, but it is far less common than it was in decades past.  It's certainly not what I would call 'ubiquitous'.  Nowadays, it's hardly ever the police officer who initiates the bribe, but rather the motorist.  FWIW, I've seen just as much bribery in eastern Europe as I have in México.  And I know of at least two Germans who obtained their licenses without ever taking a road test, having gone through driver's ed in rural Kansas (where there is very little traffic) and simply trading their US license in for a German one.

If I could sneak into Mexico, sign up for government health care, social security and free food, I'd seriously think about it.  Of course, we all know that they do not put up with such silliness. 

It's quite easy to sneak into México; I've personally met illegal American immigrants there, and have even crossed the river in a rowboat for cash four times myself.  As for health coverage, who needs government assistance?  Vaccinations are free, regardless of citizenship, and costs are very low.  I know of a gentleman who fell ill while in México a couple of years ago; he had to be hospitalized for a good five days or so, including tests, medicine, and whatnot.  The total hospital bill for his stay was less than 200 USD.  I know another fellow who scraped his hand with a rusty nail while we were working there and went in for a tetanus shot.  Not only was it free, but he got to go right up to the front of the line; as far as I know, he didn't have to show his FM-T in order to receive the shot.

[Dr Frankenstein]

It is a myth that driver's licenses prove residency.  Yes, they are one piece of evidence that can be cited to show ties to a given state, but they are not exclusive in this role, nor is that their intended function.  It is not that uncommon for drivers to have multiple licenses from different jurisdictions (I have two, for example).

This is also why the standard driver's license is no longer valid for crossing a border under the WHTI (which requires a proof of citizenship) and the reason they make special "enhanced" licenses for that purpose.

[agentsteel53]

As a factual matter, unskilled, unlicensed non-citizen drivers should not be allowed to drive on our roadways.  I can tell you from personal experience that driver's ed in countries such as Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, etc. is substandard.  Cultural practices that are common in many of those countries (particularly the poorer, rural areas) include drinking and driving, having multiple passengers (including children) ride unrestrained in the backs of pickup trucks, not using seatbelts, and generally driving in a poorly skilled manner. 

Those who immigrate legally from those nations and who obtain a green card are absolutely entitled to take our driver's ed courses, sit for the examination, and to be licensed like the rest of us.  Those who cannot do these things are an appalling hazard who should not be permitted on our roadways.

driver's ed in the US is also extremely substandard.  if we're gonna start deporting Hispanic idiot drivers, why not deport Good Ol' Boy idiot drivers too?  hell of a lot more of those in the US.

[vdeane]

I disagree.  If you can't get the person to apply for a visa to be here legally, how do you expect them to take a full drivers' ed course, and then to apply for (and pass) the exam? 

We're not having these issues with Klaus from Bremen who overstayed his student visa.  Klaus had to pass some pretty rigorous training in order to obtain a license to drive a car in Germany.  And, he could pass the average DMV driving test without breaking a sweat.  No, the issue is with those who hail from countries without adequate drivers ed training.  Where enforcement is lax and bribery on the highways is ubiquitous.   

I find that those who are in the country legally (with a visa) seem to have no problem obtaining a license.  They respect the law and do what is required to drive.  OTOH, those who are raising insurance rates in LA and Tucson are those who do not respect the law.  And let's skip the damn race card.  It's very tiresome.   It's not about race, it's about fairness.  If I could sneak into Mexico, sign up for government health care, social security and free food, I'd seriously think about it.  Of course, we all know that they do not put up with such silliness. 

Lastly, please tell me of any country in the world (aside from this one) that is stupid enough to give a drivers license (or other benefits) to people who lack the permission to live within it's borders. 

Show me a DMV that requires you to have immediate family with a license or demonstrate some special skill that no other person has just to get on a 10-20 year waiting list.

Very informative infographic: http://thumbnails.visually.netdna-cdn.com/what-part-of-legal-immigration-dont-you-understand_50290c8272a8d.jpg

[agentsteel53]

Show me a DMV that requires you to have immediate family with a license or demonstrate some special skill that no other person has just to get on a 10-20 year waiting list.

Very informative infographic: http://thumbnails.visually.netdna-cdn.com/what-part-of-legal-immigration-dont-you-understand_50290c8272a8d.jpg

meanwhile, you can be as dumb as a post if you had the good sense at age 0 to decide where, inside which set of invisible lines, to locate the vagina you dropped out of.

hypocrisy much?

[StogieGuy7]

Wow, so many comments and so little time.  Overall, a number of the replies I see here are emotionally wrought while leaving logic at the doorstep.  Let's begin:

driver's ed in the US is also extremely substandard.  if we're gonna start deporting Hispanic idiot drivers, why not deport Good Ol' Boy idiot drivers too?  hell of a lot more of those in the US.

That's not the point, now is it?  The "Good Ol' Boys" are supposed to be licensed and, if not, should be punished.  Illegals are here without permission and certainly shouldn't be driving.  And accident rates in "good ol' boy" land are certainly much lower than in your average Latin American city.

Show me a DMV that requires you to have immediate family with a license or demonstrate some special skill that no other person has just to get on a 10-20 year waiting list.

Very informative infographic: http://thumbnails.visually.netdna-cdn.com/what-part-of-legal-immigration-dont-you-understand_50290c8272a8d.jpg

Absurd question that has nothing to do with the issue.  Again, people spend a lot of time, money and effort to obtain LEGAL residency in the USA.  I support those people 110%.  The rest need to do it right or be tossed out.  And they should not qualify for the privilege of obtaining a U.S. driver's license.  Next.....

Show me a DMV that requires you to have immediate family with a license or demonstrate some special skill that no other person has just to get on a 10-20 year waiting list.

Very informative infographic: http://thumbnails.visually.netdna-cdn.com/what-part-of-legal-immigration-dont-you-understand_50290c8272a8d.jpg

meanwhile, you can be as dumb as a post if you had the good sense at age 0 to decide where, inside which set of invisible lines, to locate the vagina you dropped out of.

hypocrisy much?

Wow, so this is we get when dealing with someone who knows he's wrong and can't articulate enough of an argument in defense of his position to discuss things further. 

Do me a favor and convince Canada of your point of view.  I like Canada, their climate, people, etc and would love to live there.  Please ask them to make relocating to the Cottage Country of Ontario as seamless for me as moving to Milwaukee would be.   And, I'd like all the benefits of being Canadian too.  Financial and otherwise.  Without bothering with all of their pesky immigration laws, regulations, fees, etc.   

See what those "racist" Canadians have to say about that. 

[agentsteel53]

Do me a favor and convince Canada of your point of view.  I like Canada, their climate, people, etc and would love to live there.  Please ask them to make relocating to the Cottage Country of Ontario as seamless for me as moving to Milwaukee would be.   And, I'd like all the benefits of being Canadian too.  Financial and otherwise.  Without bothering with all of their pesky immigration laws, regulations, fees, etc.   

See what those "racist" Canadians have to say about that.

you're actually proving my point here.  immigration is a bureaucratic nightmare that punishes people who didn't have the good sense to be born where they want to live.

this coming from someone who has actually gone through the process of acquiring a green card, and is fed up with being asked more discriminatory questions at internal checkpoints in 2012 USA than he ever was in late 1980s communist Hungary.

when the US border patrol stops fucking around in Needles, California, we can discuss a rational immigration policy.