Double left turns with permissive phasing

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

At I-280 and Northfield Avenue in West Orange, NJ

Not sure if this was posted yet. I am pleasantly surprised that they did not split-phase this intersection. There's also a jughandle for left turns onto Wheeler Ave, so in a lot of other states this two-phase intersection would probably have four phases. Sometimes left turning traffic coming off the ramp may not realize that they need to yield to oncoming right turns (NJ's habit of only using green balls for split-phase intersections does not help with this), but since Wheeler Street is pretty minor, drivers are usually slow and cautious and there is rarely an issue.

[jakeroot]

At I-280 and Northfield Avenue in West Orange, NJ

Not sure if this was posted yet. I am pleasantly surprised that they did not split-phase this intersection. There's also a jughandle for left turns onto Wheeler Ave, so in a lot of other states this two-phase intersection would probably have four phases. Sometimes left turning traffic coming off the ramp may not realize that they need to yield to oncoming right turns (NJ's habit of only using green balls for split-phase intersections does not help with this), but since Wheeler Street is pretty minor, drivers are usually slow and cautious and there is rarely an issue.

Not yet posted that I know of.

This reminds me a lot of the one above from Pleasanton, Calif: what I assume is a very busy street meeting what I assume is a very quiet street (as it was pointed out by mrsman). There is no reason to use split-phasing here because that added level of protection would so rarely ever be necessary, and the extra phase would occasionally throw a wrench into the intersection timing. Plus I'm sure drivers would grow tired of waiting for that approach to activate. I'm sure, in many cases, drivers would just barely miss that window of activation and would be kept waiting far longer than necessary.

I do think the intersection could use "yield on green" signs like the one in California, so that drivers are at least aware of the oncoming traffic having precedence over their left turn. Especially if all-green-orb split phased intersections are as common in NJ as you say.

[mrsman]

At I-280 and Northfield Avenue in West Orange, NJ

Not sure if this was posted yet. I am pleasantly surprised that they did not split-phase this intersection. There's also a jughandle for left turns onto Wheeler Ave, so in a lot of other states this two-phase intersection would probably have four phases. Sometimes left turning traffic coming off the ramp may not realize that they need to yield to oncoming right turns (NJ's habit of only using green balls for split-phase intersections does not help with this), but since Wheeler Street is pretty minor, drivers are usually slow and cautious and there is rarely an issue.

Not yet posted that I know of.

This reminds me a lot of the one above from Pleasanton, Calif: what I assume is a very busy street meeting what I assume is a very quiet street (as it was pointed out by mrsman). There is no reason to use split-phasing here because that added level of protection would so rarely ever be necessary, and the extra phase would occasionally throw a wrench into the intersection timing. Plus I'm sure drivers would grow tired of waiting for that approach to activate. I'm sure, in many cases, drivers would just barely miss that window of activation and would be kept waiting far longer than necessary.

I do think the intersection could use "yield on green" signs like the one in California, so that drivers are at least aware of the oncoming traffic having precedence over their left turn. Especially if all-green-orb split phased intersections are as common in NJ as you say.

This seems to be a bit of a special circumstance.  The two left turn lanes here do need to yield, but because the street is one-way there is no opposing thru traffic here - only right tunting traffic from Wheeler.  That being said, there probably aren't too many like it, because most of the time this type of configuration (heavy one-way, especially a freeway exit, opposing a light residential street) is almost always signalled as split-phase if there are multiple lefts allowed.  But given Wheeler is lightly traveled, the only thing I would add is a "left turn yield on green" as the current signalization seems adequate.

[jeffandnicole]

The only real issues right now, if I had to guess, would be (A) traffic cops making the overall setup and phasing totally redundant (unless they are there to preserve order and let the signals do the work...I don't know how NYC operates in this regard);

Basically, this.  In my experiences and observations, there are a lot of cops on duty at any one time, and unlike what some people think, they can't be all investigating crimes.  They need cops on the street available for incidents.  But when everything is running ok, the cops are placed at intersections just to monitor and assist as needed.  In the GSV link, you see the road is closed, a few cars in the dedicated left turn lane, and the cop, as you pan downstream, appears to either be trying to wave the leading vehicle to go straight or talking to him. 

The cops will also help control traffic when needed.  Take for example a common one-way to one-way left turn.  Hard to make that left turn when pedestrians are non-stop crossing the road. The cop, when the light turns yellow, will take a step (literally, a step), and wave some of that left turning traffic thru the end of the yellow and beginning of the red, just before the opposing direction gets the green and their walk signal.  It gets a few of the lagging left turners thru, and with the cop there, keeps things under control.  If you have a hotel room above the street where you can watch some of this overhead, it's fairly interesting how they do it, without it turning into a free-for-all.

A few years back, I happened to be staying near the PANYNJ Bus Terminal when a terrorist tried to set off a bomb, and was unsuccessful.   Those cops on the street were instantly able to pull out the metal crowd control barriers that NYPD have placed near each intersection, blocking pedestrians and motorists from getting close, and rerouting traffic away from the incident.  Once the incident was quickly determined to be a lone attempt, unsuccessful and the threat subsided, the officers allowed pedestrians thru, and when given the all clear, moved the barriers to allow traffic thru.  The speed at which all of this occurs is mind-boggling for such a large city, but shows why NYC chose to keep cops at many intersection.

(B) the potential for pedestrian collisions (reduced by the presence of the police in A); and (C) the potential for rear-end crashes if someone in the morning hours turns left from the middle lane, and gets hit from the rear by a car used to center lane traffic continuing south along Bowery. For B and C, I think NYC drivers are well-enough versed in avoiding these situations that neither are likely major issues.

Oh, yeah, this is so typical of NYC Driving.  And if someone were to be bumped, they at most would get out, look at it, maybe quickly get each other's info, and take off.

[jakeroot]

Found one on PEI. Now removed with the construction of a displaced left turn.

Charlottetown, PEI: Southbound St Peters Rd @ Riverside (TCH).

No idea how common these are in PEI, if at all.

Edit: another across the harbour:

Charlottetown, PEI: Northbound Stratford Rd @ the TCH.

[jakeroot]

Just posted over in the 'double doghouse' thread by Revive 755. I don't believe this has been posted yet. St Louis, MO:

NB Skinker Boulevard at Forest Park Parkway in St. Louis, MO has a double doghouse for a protected-permissive dual left.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

Saw this example in MN via a youtube livestream just now. Based on the GSV taken in daylight it looks like this uses time of day phasing. On the livestream the FYA was in permissive mode

https://maps.app.goo.gl/DVGm9Sqx1hVk5RKJ8

[Amtrakprod]

Saw this example in MN via a youtube livestream just now. Based on the GSV taken in daylight it looks like this uses time of day phasing. On the livestream the FYA was in permissive mode

https://maps.app.goo.gl/DVGm9Sqx1hVk5RKJ8

Could you link that live?


iPhone

[jakeroot]

It seems that Minnesota has wholly adopted the double left flashing yellow arrow + TOD phasing protocol. How often are double protected only signals still installed around there? Seems like FYAs are the de-facto choice. Apart from maybe a triple left turn.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

Saw this example in MN via a youtube livestream just now. Based on the GSV taken in daylight it looks like this uses time of day phasing. On the livestream the FYA was in permissive mode

https://maps.app.goo.gl/DVGm9Sqx1hVk5RKJ8

Could you link that live?


iPhone

https://youtu.be/sJyzGvwkNX4

Skip to 1:11:11 (1h 11m 11s)

[jakeroot]

Thank you for the link. Pretty nice to see one of these MN examples actually going.

[Amtrakprod]

Nice. I like that Minnesota used TOD for those signals. Minnesota had my favorite uses of flashing yellow arrow signals (besides the flashing yellow bike even though I get the point).


iPhone

[fwydriver405]

Found this one in Fort Collins CO. This one has RR tracks that bisect this intersection...

[roadfro]

Found this one in Fort Collins CO. This one has RR tracks that bisect this intersection...

Green signals for the railroad immediately in front of red signals for the intersection?! Oh, that's messy...

They should have implemented an overlap between the railroad signal and the traffic signal to cut down on the mixed signals displayed here (pun intended) Or, you know, use regular railroad crossing lights & gates.

[mrsman]

Found this one in Fort Collins CO. This one has RR tracks that bisect this intersection...

Green signals for the railroad immediately in front of red signals for the intersection?! Oh, that's messy...

They should have implemented an overlap between the railroad signal and the traffic signal to cut down on the mixed signals displayed here (pun intended) Or, you know, use regular railroad crossing lights & gates.

It's also weird that the trains themselves seem to be controlled by a regular traffic light.  This generally only occurs on streetcars or light rail, not heavy rail corridors.  Does anyone know what types of trains run on these tracks?

[US 89]

It's also weird that the trains themselves seem to be controlled by a regular traffic light.  This generally only occurs on streetcars or light rail, not heavy rail corridors.  Does anyone know what types of trains run on these tracks?

This is rare but I've seen it on some low traffic industrial freight spurs - here's an example I know of in western Salt Lake City.

[Dirt Roads]

It's also weird that the trains themselves seem to be controlled by a regular traffic light.  This generally only occurs on streetcars or light rail, not heavy rail corridors.  Does anyone know what types of trains run on these tracks?

This is rare but I've seen it on some low traffic industrial freight spurs - here's an example I know of in western Salt Lake City.

This one in SLC looks like a road atop the industrial spur [tracks].  In more intense shipping settings, imbedded tracks (in this usage, rails imbedded in industrial roadways and shipping yards) are fairly common, but this pix looks like a smaller industry that has appropriately their rail spur as an outlet to gain access to a signalized intersection.  Almost always, longer industrial spurs are privately maintained.  It ain't cheap to maintain imbedded tracks, so I hope they knew what they were getting into when they paved over the spur.

[fwydriver405]

It's also weird that the trains themselves seem to be controlled by a regular traffic light.  This generally only occurs on streetcars or light rail, not heavy rail corridors.  Does anyone know what types of trains run on these tracks?

This is rare but I've seen it on some low traffic industrial freight spurs - here's an example I know of in western Salt Lake City.

I remember watching a video of such a crossing like that in Ohio. Mason, Ohio at US 42 and Tylersville Rd.

[Dirt Roads]

It's also weird that the trains themselves seem to be controlled by a regular traffic light.  This generally only occurs on streetcars or light rail, not heavy rail corridors.  Does anyone know what types of trains run on these tracks?

This is rare but I've seen it on some low traffic industrial freight spurs - here's an example I know of in western Salt Lake City.

I remember watching a video of such a crossing like that in Ohio. Mason, Ohio at US 42 and Tylersville Rd.

This type of train operation (traffic signals at exempt crossings) is not so uncommon, but the railroad-only traffic signal added to the intersection is very rare.  For those who didn't watch carefully, the brakeman walked over to the traffic signal and keyed up the crossing preempt for the traffic signal.  Before the advent of crossing predictors (train detection circuits that predict the arrival time based on train speed), this key-up was very common at most urban grade crossings.  Exempt crossings require the train crew to flag the crossing before entering the street. 

Back to the main topic, this type of train operation (signal key-up) is most certainly used at the double left turn crossing example in western SLC as well.

[Dirt Roads]

It's also weird that the trains themselves seem to be controlled by a regular traffic light.  This generally only occurs on streetcars or light rail, not heavy rail corridors.  Does anyone know what types of trains run on these tracks?

This is rare but I've seen it on some low traffic industrial freight spurs - here's an example I know of in western Salt Lake City.

I remember watching a video of such a crossing like that in Ohio. Mason, Ohio at US 42 and Tylersville Rd.

This type of train operation (traffic signals at exempt crossings) is not so uncommon, but the railroad-only traffic signal added to the intersection is very rare.  For those who didn't watch carefully, the brakeman walked over to the traffic signal and keyed up the crossing preempt for the traffic signal.  Before the advent of crossing predictors (train detection circuits that predict the arrival time based on train speed), this key-up was very common at most urban grade crossings.  Exempt crossings require the train crew to flag the crossing before entering the street. 

Back to the main topic, this type of train operation (signal key-up) is most certainly used at the double left turn crossing example in western SLC as well.

Oh, and the EXEMPT plaque (R15‑3P or W10‑1aP) is unique to the MUTCD as it is a courtesy to hazmat trucks and school buses that are otherwise required to stop at the crossing.  Since many of these crossings are private and not maintained by the railroad, it is difficult to get these EXEMPT plaques maintained properly (note that most private crossing are contracted for maintenance to the railroad, which should keep them maintained).

[fwydriver405]

Would this intersection in New York City count as such? Direction from W Houston St has Left and Left+Thru setup. Looks like the only thing the double left has to yield to is the opposing right turn.

[mrsman]

Would this intersection in New York City count as such? Direction from W Houston St has Left and Left+Thru setup. Looks like the only thing the double left has to yield to is the opposing right turn.

Hard to say.  There is definitely the need to yield to the opposing right turn, but this is different from standard because the street with the double left is one-way.  I think that its fine to note this one, because the usual signalization for a similar setup would be split-phasing, but this clearly has EB and WB traffic at the same time.

[jakeroot]

Would this intersection in New York City count as such? Direction from W Houston St has Left and Left+Thru setup. Looks like the only thing the double left has to yield to is the opposing right turn.

Hard to say.  There is definitely the need to yield to the opposing right turn, but this is different from standard because the street with the double left is one-way.  I think that its fine to note this one, because the usual signalization for a similar setup would be split-phasing, but this clearly has EB and WB traffic at the same time.

I agree, it's not perfect in terms of being like examples from Colorado or Tucson, but it's still an example I would include in this thread. I have posted examples identical to this from both Hawaii and Seattle (basically identical).

[fwydriver405]

Saw two intersections with double permissive lefts on a recent trip to the University of Vermont for two games:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.4744303,-73.1954092,3a,35.6y,54.89h,84.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqU4mNlgDIpby3ZwN85XmVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (this one is confirmed, as I saw the opposing direction also have a concurrent green as well.)

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.4758217,-73.1926487,3a,24.8y,186.4h,85.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDMQ344T5QDAEkA_uedCzKQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[jakeroot]

Saw two intersections with double permissive lefts on a recent trip to the University of Vermont for two games:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.4744303,-73.1954092,3a,35.6y,54.89h,84.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqU4mNlgDIpby3ZwN85XmVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (this one is confirmed, as I saw the opposing direction also have a concurrent green as well.)

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.4758217,-73.1926487,3a,24.8y,186.4h,85.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDMQ344T5QDAEkA_uedCzKQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I continue to be surprised by how many exist in Vermont. Interesting that two would end up so close to each other.