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Do you think dual permissive turns should be allowed?

Yes
- 56 (51.9%)
No
- 34 (31.5%)
Cat
- 18 (16.7%)

Total Members Voted: 108


Author Topic: Double left turns with permissive phasing  (Read 111137 times)

JMAN_WiS&S

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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #600 on: April 18, 2022, 10:22:45 PM »

JMAN_WiS&S recently brought up Eau Claire, Wisconsin in another thread, and it reminded me to take a look around that place again.

I noticed that eastbound Clairemont to the northbound Hastings Way onramp has a double permissive left turn using flashing yellow arrows:

https://goo.gl/maps/n7DnBT2NXR9VsN1A9

In true Eau Claire fashion, there's plenty of signals! Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find any GSV of the left turn signals operating in permissive mode. If there are any locals that know of this intersections and could comment on how it operates, I'd love to know if it actually runs in permissive mode (perhaps at night).

I am said local! These dual FYAs along with the ones at Clairemont/Stein, begin their p/p phasing around 7:30-8pm during the weekday, and Clairemont/University around 7pm. On the weekend University is p/p 24hrs. The dual protected FYAs at Hastings & Brackett run recently switched to running protected only during the day, it switches to p/p around 7pm.

There are actually plans to swap the final WisDOT intersections that have 3 section LT heads in our area over to 4 section FYA heads in the next year or two, aside from the SPUI. STH 178/Seymour Cray Sr in Chippewa Falls now has a NB to WB dual left with p/p FYAs, running the same phasing as the clairemont ones do. River Prairie Dr & US53NB ramp in Altoona, STH 124 & CTH OO in Lake Hallie, and both of the STH 178 & STH 29 Ramp intersections in Chippewa Falls are set to be eventually converted to this head style. Not entirely sure if any of those will drop one of the left turn lanes to compensate. For a while Eau Claire had the highest concentration of protected only left turn signals in the entire state and now we have eliminated most of them 15 years later.

If you ever want to know more about anything Eau Claire feel free to shoot me a PM, I could go on for hours and hours, and can probably get you videos of just about anything too!
« Last Edit: April 27, 2022, 11:12:57 PM by JMAN_WiS&S »
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Hobart

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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #602 on: May 17, 2022, 08:12:31 PM »

It hasn't been a month yet since the last post, and I found another example in Salina, Kansas!

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7980492,-97.6128301,3a,75y,43.84h,88.65t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1spKlT61K6Vt9K3lOmsuW0fg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DpKlT61K6Vt9K3lOmsuW0fg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D14.805189%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Well found.

I wish they would have modified the oncoming left turn to positive-offset alignment (against oncoming traffic instead of against through traffic), as that would have improved visibility for left-turning traffic. But maybe it works okay. I know Tucson swears by some kind of clearance zone between the through lanes and the left turn lanes.
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Hobart

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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #603 on: June 07, 2022, 09:44:04 PM »

Stolen from an intersection that's next to an intersection on the oversized reflector board thread.

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.2157385,-96.8608948,3a,15.4y,165.95h,90.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8gjedreKTCdHjqQC9RvEkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

This freshly installed example in Frisco, Texas, has double FYA's, in Texas' double red arrow configuration. I imagine it's not going to be around for much longer as traffic demands increase.

EDIT: Shortly after I posted, I found that a few nearby intersections have examples as well!
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.2142146,-96.8454693,3a,75y,183.66h,109.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6IGz1oACbVpwu8KEs4V1DA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.209032,-96.8197297,3a,15y,271.47h,91.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNC0Y4EGcP1PhBceuKjeypA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.2040566,-96.8026837,3a,44.8y,262.88h,92.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3Yfk8joPa93Cz3fsAe7Ifg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.2339097,-96.8193084,3a,15y,269.45h,92.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sV2n9L0WfxAR2QidjeUYirg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.2627725,-96.819274,3a,75y,293.54h,90.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgAm1faxlCTbQspTx0eSdbg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I think all of these exist because construction of the roads in the area isn't complete yet; many of these intersections have additional empty space for lanes, or barricades indicating the road will be widened later. Dallas Parkway is also just feeder roads right now. It's interesting that the state would install protected-permissive signals on a temporary basis for this reason.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 09:51:50 PM by Hobart »
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kphoger

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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #604 on: June 08, 2022, 09:54:39 AM »

Stolen from an intersection that's next to an intersection on the oversized reflector board thread.

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.2157385,-96.8608948,3a,15.4y,165.95h,90.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8gjedreKTCdHjqQC9RvEkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

This freshly installed example in Frisco, Texas, has double FYA's, in Texas' double red arrow configuration. I imagine it's not going to be around for much longer as traffic demands increase.

EDIT: Shortly after I posted, I found that a few nearby intersections have examples as well!
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.2142146,-96.8454693,3a,75y,183.66h,109.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6IGz1oACbVpwu8KEs4V1DA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.209032,-96.8197297,3a,15y,271.47h,91.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNC0Y4EGcP1PhBceuKjeypA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.2040566,-96.8026837,3a,44.8y,262.88h,92.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3Yfk8joPa93Cz3fsAe7Ifg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.2339097,-96.8193084,3a,15y,269.45h,92.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sV2n9L0WfxAR2QidjeUYirg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.2627725,-96.819274,3a,75y,293.54h,90.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgAm1faxlCTbQspTx0eSdbg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I think all of these exist because construction of the roads in the area isn't complete yet; many of these intersections have additional empty space for lanes, or barricades indicating the road will be widened later. Dallas Parkway is also just feeder roads right now. It's interesting that the state would install protected-permissive signals on a temporary basis for this reason.

Also interesting that they don't have white FYA signs next to the signal heads.
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roadfro

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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #605 on: June 08, 2022, 11:35:14 AM »

Also interesting that they don't have white FYA signs next to the signal heads.

Technically, a sign is not required (despite so many jurisdictions using one). Since MUTCD didn't require or even recommend a sign, that probably explains why there's so many different FYA sign designs out there...
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #606 on: June 08, 2022, 12:03:53 PM »


Also interesting that they don't have white FYA signs next to the signal heads.

Technically, a sign is not required (despite so many jurisdictions using one). Since MUTCD didn't require or even recommend a sign, that probably explains why there's so many different FYA sign designs out there...

It's just that it seems like I've always seen one in Texas wherever there's an FYA.
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fwydriver405

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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #607 on: June 12, 2022, 11:41:06 AM »

Saw two intersections with double permissive lefts on a recent trip to the University of Vermont for two games:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.4744303,-73.1954092,3a,35.6y,54.89h,84.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqU4mNlgDIpby3ZwN85XmVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (this one is confirmed, as I saw the opposing direction also have a concurrent green as well.)

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.4758217,-73.1926487,3a,24.8y,186.4h,85.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDMQ344T5QDAEkA_uedCzKQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I continue to be surprised by how many exist in Vermont. Interesting that two would end up so close to each other.

Speaking of Vermont... I wonder if this double left in St Albans VT is still running permissive/protected at all since 2015, since the newer GSV's show this signal to run in protected only mode.

2015 GSV (permissve/protected), Oct 2018 GSV (protected only?)

Update on the Vermont double permissive lefts. Managed to visit all three locations on 11 June on a day trip to Burlington. Here is what I found:

US Route 2 at University Heights in Burlington in UVM is still running a double permissive left on the Univ. Heights approach. Seems to run a lagging left setup (yellow trap risk) since the first side street phases were green balls in both direction, but since side street volumes were low, the arrow never came on.

Beaumont Ave and Carrigan Drive, also in Burlington in UVM does NOT run a double permissive left setup, it ran split (with a green left arrow on one of the heads) when I drove thru there.

US Route 7 at Vermont Route 207 in Saint Albans VT did NOT have the permissive phase active when I went there, even under what I assume was under free operations (although it seemed like it was running pretimed and not free... broken detector?)
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Re: Double left turns with permissive phasing
« Reply #608 on: June 20, 2022, 09:50:12 PM »

Saw a bunch of these in Minnesota (Maple Grove), though the FYA is sometimes inactive.  What is also odd is there is only one left turn signal overhead (the second one is in the far left corner).

https://goo.gl/maps/oW78ms5eFzeo3CZF6

https://goo.gl/maps/LpKsdeZRKLJFLpV56
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