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Interstate 81 in Syracuse

Started by The Ghostbuster, May 25, 2016, 03:37:19 PM

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ixnay

Quote from: yakra on January 12, 2022, 03:52:01 PM
Quote from: Jim on January 11, 2022, 03:41:22 PM
Quote from: yakra on January 11, 2022, 03:17:34 PM
^ 3DI <-> 3DNY <-> 3DI, all the same number?
Yes, admittedly all of the others have the 3DNY on just one end of a 3DI (I think), but this seems way better to me than BL I-81.
I can't imagine the FHWA signing off on 2 separate same-numbered 3DI spurs in a state.

Quote from: kalvado on January 11, 2022, 03:56:05 PM
I would be OK with entire southern portion being 3DNY
IAWTP. Not 100% the same thing, but PA378 anyone?

Or the southern part of BL 83 entering York, PA from the south?
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.


roadman65

What gets me is this freeway removal purge taking place all of a sudden. It's like develop the rural areas to bring more traffic and get rid of the much needed freeways needed for the region that carries the extra burden brought on by the greedy land developers.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

froggie

^ This hasn't been "all of a sudden."  This is decades in the making and is in part the result of poor decisions made when building these freeways to begin with.

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 11:57:15 AM
^ This hasn't been "all of a sudden."  This is decades in the making and is in part the result of poor decisions made when building these freeways to begin with.
Though many would disagree that I-81 through downtown Syracuse would be considered a bad decision.

froggie

^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.

kalvado

Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 11:57:15 AM
^ This hasn't been "all of a sudden."  This is decades in the making and is in part the result of poor decisions made when building these freeways to begin with.
It can go even further to the roots of Syracuse - a crossroad city brought to life by Erie canal.
With decay of rust belt in general and canal transportation in particular, is there a good reason for the city co continue the existence? Or it is time to sunset? Too many places are actually  in same situation.

I am actually pretty curious - once I-81 is gone and Syracuse continues - if not accelerates - inevitable nosedive.. What would people be saying then?

kalvado

Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 12:16:44 PM
^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.
Viaduct is not the critical part. Tight geometry - meaning things like bricks from collapsing buildings falling on a highway https://www.syracuse.com/news/2010/03/crumbling_syracuse_building_ke.html -  is the major factor preventing rebuild as-is and is the most critical part, IMHO.

Rothman

Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:21:53 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 12:16:44 PM
^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.
Viaduct is not the critical part. Tight geometry - meaning things like bricks from collapsing buildings falling on a highway https://www.syracuse.com/news/2010/03/crumbling_syracuse_building_ke.html -  is the major factor preventing rebuild as-is and is the most critical part, IMHO.
That was a one-off incident.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Rothman

Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:19:05 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 11:57:15 AM
^ This hasn't been "all of a sudden."  This is decades in the making and is in part the result of poor decisions made when building these freeways to begin with.
It can go even further to the roots of Syracuse - a crossroad city brought to life by Erie canal.
With decay of rust belt in general and canal transportation in particular, is there a good reason for the city co continue the existence? Or it is time to sunset? Too many places are actually  in same situation.

I am actually pretty curious - once I-81 is gone and Syracuse continues - if not accelerates - inevitable nosedive.. What would people be saying then?
I don't know if Syracuse is nosediving.  Healthcare industry has taken hold and is expanding.  Syracuse University and other colleges are still major employers.

What befuddles me has been the recent proliferation of luxury apartment building in downtown -- plans that extended from before the pandemic.  I can't figure out who is renting them.  You also have the Franklin Square bourgeois area.

The Crucible plant is still open...

I'd call Syracuse "treading water."
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kalvado

Quote from: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 12:28:53 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:21:53 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 12:16:44 PM
^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.
Viaduct is not the critical part. Tight geometry - meaning things like bricks from collapsing buildings falling on a highway https://www.syracuse.com/news/2010/03/crumbling_syracuse_building_ke.html -  is the major factor preventing rebuild as-is and is the most critical part, IMHO.
That was a one-off incident.
One off event which, however, shows how tight things are in there. My bet is had ROW been available, by now the viaduct would be rebuilt without much discussion.

kalvado

Quote from: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 12:31:38 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:19:05 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 11:57:15 AM
^ This hasn't been "all of a sudden."  This is decades in the making and is in part the result of poor decisions made when building these freeways to begin with.
It can go even further to the roots of Syracuse - a crossroad city brought to life by Erie canal.
With decay of rust belt in general and canal transportation in particular, is there a good reason for the city co continue the existence? Or it is time to sunset? Too many places are actually  in same situation.

I am actually pretty curious - once I-81 is gone and Syracuse continues - if not accelerates - inevitable nosedive.. What would people be saying then?
I don't know if Syracuse is nosediving.  Healthcare industry has taken hold and is expanding.  Syracuse University and other colleges are still major employers.

What befuddles me has been the recent proliferation of luxury apartment building in downtown -- plans that extended from before the pandemic.  I can't figure out who is renting them.  You also have the Franklin Square bourgeois area.

The Crucible plant is still open...

I'd call Syracuse "treading water."
Maybe I am overly pessimistic; there is definitely some things happening.  We were talking about all that upstream, no real need to reiterate. But I don't see things in Syracuse becoming better than they are.  Easily growing worse.

Rothman

Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:34:56 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 12:28:53 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:21:53 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 12:16:44 PM
^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.
Viaduct is not the critical part. Tight geometry - meaning things like bricks from collapsing buildings falling on a highway https://www.syracuse.com/news/2010/03/crumbling_syracuse_building_ke.html -  is the major factor preventing rebuild as-is and is the most critical part, IMHO.
That was a one-off incident.
One off event which, however, shows how tight things are in there. My bet is had ROW been available, by now the viaduct would be rebuilt without much discussion.
That is a huge if the size of Montana.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Rothman

Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:41:46 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 12:31:38 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:19:05 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 11:57:15 AM
^ This hasn't been "all of a sudden."  This is decades in the making and is in part the result of poor decisions made when building these freeways to begin with.
It can go even further to the roots of Syracuse - a crossroad city brought to life by Erie canal.
With decay of rust belt in general and canal transportation in particular, is there a good reason for the city co continue the existence? Or it is time to sunset? Too many places are actually  in same situation.

I am actually pretty curious - once I-81 is gone and Syracuse continues - if not accelerates - inevitable nosedive.. What would people be saying then?
I don't know if Syracuse is nosediving.  Healthcare industry has taken hold and is expanding.  Syracuse University and other colleges are still major employers.

What befuddles me has been the recent proliferation of luxury apartment building in downtown -- plans that extended from before the pandemic.  I can't figure out who is renting them.  You also have the Franklin Square bourgeois area.

The Crucible plant is still open...

I'd call Syracuse "treading water."
Maybe I am overly pessimistic; there is definitely some things happening.  We were talking about all that upstream, no real need to reiterate. But I don't see things in Syracuse becoming better than they are.  Easily growing worse.
Nah, not easily growing worse.  There is a lot of change happening downtown.  It's like the openings and closures cancel each other out, while the major vacancies remain constant.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kalvado

Quote from: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 02:28:35 PM
That is a huge if the size of Montana.
Well, you may compare that to 787 rebuilt.
Quote from: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 02:29:48 PM
Nah, not easily growing worse.  There is a lot of change happening downtown.  It's like the openings and closures cancel each other out, while the major vacancies remain constant.
And overall it's a slow rot. What Syracuse actually need is a ton of good jobs, in addition to existing bundle. Restaurants and apartments are not really cutting it.

MATraveler128

Quote from: roadman65 on January 13, 2022, 11:38:52 AM
What gets me is this freeway removal purge taking place all of a sudden. It's like develop the rural areas to bring more traffic and get rid of the much needed freeways needed for the region that carries the extra burden brought on by the greedy land developers.

There was of course the removal of the Sheridan Expressway in the Bronx. I didn't see any residents complain about that.
Decommission 128 south of Peabody!

Lowest untraveled number: 56

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 12:16:44 PM
^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.
I hate to beat a dead horse here but there was a tunnel option. Why not build a setup that allows a tunnel to be potentially constructed off into the future when/if we can ever get our costs down? I feel as if we'll have better technology/engineering methods that will make tunnel construction more feasible.

Strider

Quote from: BlueOutback7 on January 13, 2022, 02:51:14 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 13, 2022, 11:38:52 AM
What gets me is this freeway removal purge taking place all of a sudden. It's like develop the rural areas to bring more traffic and get rid of the much needed freeways needed for the region that carries the extra burden brought on by the greedy land developers.

There was of course the removal of the Sheridan Expressway in the Bronx. I didn't see any residents complain about that.

they have easy access to I-95 to the north and I-278 to the south, and the Sheridan is only like 2 or 3 miles between both ends. That is why you don't hear any residents complain about that.

kalvado

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 13, 2022, 03:26:57 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 12:16:44 PM
^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.
I hate to beat a dead horse here but there was a tunnel option. Why not build a setup that allows a tunnel to be potentially constructed off into the future when/if we can ever get our costs down? I feel as if we'll have better technology/engineering methods that will make tunnel construction more feasible.
I hate to beat a rotten horse corpse, but tunnel is not an option. Heck, US cannot afford rebuilding much more critical Amtrak NYC-NJ tunnel for what, 15 years and counting? 

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 03:50:51 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 13, 2022, 03:26:57 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 12:16:44 PM
^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.
I hate to beat a dead horse here but there was a tunnel option. Why not build a setup that allows a tunnel to be potentially constructed off into the future when/if we can ever get our costs down? I feel as if we'll have better technology/engineering methods that will make tunnel construction more feasible.
I hate to beat a rotten horse corpse, but tunnel is not an option. Heck, US cannot afford rebuilding much more critical Amtrak NYC-NJ tunnel for what, 15 years and counting?
It's not an option because of our ridiculous laws that make our infrastructure the most expensive in the world to build. So why just accept that and have the mindset that can't ever change?

kalvado

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 13, 2022, 03:52:15 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 03:50:51 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 13, 2022, 03:26:57 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 12:16:44 PM
^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.
I hate to beat a dead horse here but there was a tunnel option. Why not build a setup that allows a tunnel to be potentially constructed off into the future when/if we can ever get our costs down? I feel as if we'll have better technology/engineering methods that will make tunnel construction more feasible.
I hate to beat a rotten horse corpse, but tunnel is not an option. Heck, US cannot afford rebuilding much more critical Amtrak NYC-NJ tunnel for what, 15 years and counting?
It's not an option because of our ridiculous laws that make our infrastructure the most expensive in the world to build. So why just accept that and have the mindset that can't ever change?
It's not an option because of ridiculous geological situation in the city. But keep going, we all know education decline preceded technological decline, and we need more proof for that to be presented.

Plutonic Panda

So anyone else interested in having a debate without using ad hominem?

seicer

How would you propose to build a $4.9 billion tunnel when there are many projects backlogged in the state? Who would pay for the extremely expensive project that would serve less than 70,000 AADT? If I am not mistaken, there were also geological complications that would make a tunnel much more expensive to construct than normal. Factor in the usual bloat (political, environmental, etc.), there isn't a feasible way to reduce construction costs and there just isn't going to be the push to do so without having to radically transform how infrastructure is planned, designed, funded, and constructed in this nation.

kalvado

Quote from: seicer on January 13, 2022, 04:16:44 PM
How would you propose to build a $4.9 billion tunnel when there are many projects backlogged in the state? Who would pay for the extremely expensive project that would serve less than 70,000 AADT? If I am not mistaken, there were also geological complications that would make a tunnel much more expensive to construct than normal. Factor in the usual bloat (political, environmental, etc.), there isn't a feasible way to reduce construction costs and there just isn't going to be the push to do so without having to radically transform how infrastructure is planned, designed, funded, and constructed in this nation.
I guess the argument is that things can be done Robert Moses style on a cheap. Point here is that geology would still make going through city center pretty expensive even if all the regulations be damned

Plutonic Panda

#1148
Quote from: seicer on January 13, 2022, 04:16:44 PM
How would you propose to build a $4.9 billion tunnel when there are many projects backlogged in the state? Who would pay for the extremely expensive project that would serve less than 70,000 AADT? If I am not mistaken, there were also geological complications that would make a tunnel much more expensive to construct than normal. Factor in the usual bloat (political, environmental, etc.), there isn't a feasible way to reduce construction costs and there just isn't going to be the push to do so without having to radically transform how infrastructure is planned, designed, funded, and constructed in this nation.
Well if you read my post I suggested we hold off on building the tunnel but design the project so a tunnel with portals can be built in the future. We can then focus on building a transformative road through Syracuse that enhances alternative transportation and work on getting to bigger pressing needs that we've been neglecting for decades. While we do that we can also work to sensibly remove red tape laws or give exemptions to major/critical projects.

Perhaps down the road, we can revisit building a tunnel that other countries could build today for a billion or so while we tell ourselves we can't do it for anything less than 5 billion dollars.

So instead of knee jerk reactions and pathetic attempts at insults like the other poster seems love, if you disagree then tell me your plan? If we remove this because it goes through the city center and isn't respectful of the neighborhoods then why shouldn't every other city in America do the same thing?

D-Dey65

#1149
Quote from: Strider on January 13, 2022, 03:34:22 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on January 13, 2022, 02:51:14 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 13, 2022, 11:38:52 AM
What gets me is this freeway removal purge taking place all of a sudden. It's like develop the rural areas to bring more traffic and get rid of the much needed freeways needed for the region that carries the extra burden brought on by the greedy land developers.

There was of course the removal of the Sheridan Expressway in the Bronx. I didn't see any residents complain about that.

they have easy access to I-95 to the north and I-278 to the south, and the Sheridan is only like 2 or 3 miles between both ends. That is why you don't hear any residents complain about that.
Maybe because too many of them don't understand the need for any type of limited-access highway, and have been conditioned to associate them with urban decay and racial discrimination, even if it has nothing to do with the subjects.

At least I-81 was completed in Syracuse and the rest of the state, unlike the Sheridan which was turned into a dead end at I-95.





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