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Author Topic: Proposed US 412 Upgrade  (Read 48578 times)

US 89

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #350 on: November 17, 2021, 04:01:58 PM »

Do you think they are going to grandfather this type of road as an interstate?

They would have to replace miles of steel cable with J barriers.



There are portions of the HE Bailey turnpike, which became I-44 in 1982, that still have center cable barriers:

https://goo.gl/maps/b5n1sATF72g7Uymn7

I do not know if FHWA is more stringent on this type of thing now than they were 40 years ago, though.

MikieTimT

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #351 on: November 17, 2021, 04:42:12 PM »

Looks like this corridor is starting to pay dividends already, assuming this isn't just some ploy to grab incentives to keep this company alive long enough to be bought out by bigger fish:

Electric car company Canoo announces plans to relocate headquarters to NWA

They have announced earlier their manufacturing facility will be in Pryor, OK, so they are keeping all their facilities near the US-412 corridor.
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edwaleni

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #352 on: November 18, 2021, 08:55:27 AM »


There are portions of the HE Bailey turnpike, which became I-44 in 1982, that still have center cable barriers:

https://goo.gl/maps/b5n1sATF72g7Uymn7

I do not know if FHWA is more stringent on this type of thing now than they were 40 years ago, though.

I don't think they are allowing these types of barriers anymore. The only override would be an act of Congress of course.

Anyone who thinks a 70mph truck is going to kept out of oncoming traffic with those 40 year old, 4 bolt anchors is kidding themselves.
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MikieTimT

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #353 on: November 18, 2021, 09:15:14 AM »


There are portions of the HE Bailey turnpike, which became I-44 in 1982, that still have center cable barriers:

https://goo.gl/maps/b5n1sATF72g7Uymn7

I do not know if FHWA is more stringent on this type of thing now than they were 40 years ago, though.

I don't think they are allowing these types of barriers anymore. The only override would be an act of Congress of course.

Anyone who thinks a 70mph truck is going to kept out of oncoming traffic with those 40 year old, 4 bolt anchors is kidding themselves.

It'll take a rework of the divider for sure.  This is barely more than an "Arkansas Freeway" (5-lane), which is what we throw up whenever a 2 lane isn't sufficient anymore.
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Avalanchez71

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #354 on: November 18, 2021, 12:02:53 PM »

Do you think they are going to grandfather this type of road as an interstate?

They would have to replace miles of steel cable with J barriers.



There are portions of the HE Bailey turnpike, which became I-44 in 1982, that still have center cable barriers:

https://goo.gl/maps/b5n1sATF72g7Uymn7

I do not know if FHWA is more stringent on this type of thing now than they were 40 years ago, though.

That looks like an accident waiting to happen.
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Scott5114

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #355 on: November 18, 2021, 01:25:52 PM »


There are portions of the HE Bailey turnpike, which became I-44 in 1982, that still have center cable barriers:

https://goo.gl/maps/b5n1sATF72g7Uymn7

I do not know if FHWA is more stringent on this type of thing now than they were 40 years ago, though.

I don't think they are allowing these types of barriers anymore. The only override would be an act of Congress of course.

Anyone who thinks a 70mph truck is going to kept out of oncoming traffic with those 40 year old, 4 bolt anchors is kidding themselves.

Those barriers were built between 2013 and 2018—see street view.
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triplemultiplex

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #356 on: November 18, 2021, 04:21:15 PM »

Better than the mound o' grass that came before.
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Bobby5280

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #357 on: November 18, 2021, 08:19:24 PM »

Quote from: US 89
There are portions of the HE Bailey turnpike, which became I-44 in 1982, that still have center cable barriers

The H.E. Bailey Turnpike didn't have any barriers at all in its median strip for the longest time. It just had a grassy median strip about one lane wide. Very easy to cross for any motorist suffering a brain-fart. In the mid 1990's (early 1996 I think) a concrete Jersey barrier was added in the center median of I-44 turnpikes from the Medicine Park exit North of Lawton to the Missouri border. That was done shortly after a multiple fatality collision near the Elgin exit of I-44.

South of Lawton I-44 stayed the same for roughly another 20 years until they finally dug out the grassy median strip, paved over it and installed a cheaper cable barrier. That was done just a few years ago.

The Cimarron Turnpike had the grassy median strips and no cable barrier for even longer. There may be parts of the turnpike that still have nothing more than the strip of grass in the median. Google Earth imagery from 2019 shows that to be the case.
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Scott5114

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #358 on: November 18, 2021, 08:33:02 PM »

When I clinched the Indian Nation Turnpike (SH-375) on August 28, they were actively installing the cable barrier on parts of it. I believe other parts were still raised grass, with no work being done to change that at the time. I seem to recall there was even part of it with the raised grass median posted at 80 MPH.

I'm generally in favor of cable barriers, but with a median that narrow, especially a paved median, a Jersey barrier would be greatly appreciated.
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US 89

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #359 on: November 19, 2021, 12:34:54 PM »

I didn't realize the Bailey turnpike originally also had that ugly median hill with no left shoulder or any sort of barrier. I knew they were around on portions of the INT and Cimarron but didn't know there were more of them out there. Looking around on GSV I'm seeing it on parts of other turnpikes too like the Muskogee and Cherokee.

Aside from the urban turnpikes (Creek/Kilpatrick/Kickapoo), were all the Oklahoma turnpikes originally built with that median design?

Scott5114

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #360 on: November 19, 2021, 01:31:46 PM »

The Chickasaw wasn't. :P

And I don't think the Cherokee was either, as it was built at the same time as the Creek and Kilpatrick turnpikes.
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Bobby5280

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #361 on: November 19, 2021, 05:04:17 PM »

Quote from: Scott5114
I'm generally in favor of cable barriers, but with a median that narrow, especially a paved median, a Jersey barrier would be greatly appreciated.

OTA is installing cable barriers because they cost 50% less than the concrete Jersey barriers. Of course they spun the choice in the news by saying the cable barrier slows down a vehicle that loses control and enters the median. The theory is vehicles just "bounce" off concrete barriers and remain out of control. The cable barriers are still a cost cutting choice.

A few years ago I did see a motorist (who I think was drunk) drift into the concrete median and put his car up on its right two wheels. It looked just like one of those car stunts in the movies. Amazingly he didn't crash out when the car came back down level (it sure sent out some sparks though). I called 911 and gave dispatch the car's plate number. I'd been watching this clown while driving back from OKC after a night out. He did his car stunt a few miles North of the Elgin exit on I-44. My girlfriend and I couldn't believe the guy didn't crash, especially with the way he had been driving for dozens of miles.
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rte66man

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #362 on: November 21, 2021, 09:17:17 PM »

I didn't realize the Bailey turnpike originally also had that ugly median hill with no left shoulder or any sort of barrier. I knew they were around on portions of the INT and Cimarron but didn't know there were more of them out there. Looking around on GSV I'm seeing it on parts of other turnpikes too like the Muskogee and Cherokee.

Aside from the urban turnpikes (Creek/Kilpatrick/Kickapoo), were all the Oklahoma turnpikes originally built with that median design?

Yes. The Turner was the first in 1953 and it had the raised grassy median. When the Will Rogers opened in 1958 it also had the raised median. As noted above, the Bailey had it when it opened in 1964. That was acceptable at the time. I can remember seeing accidents on the Turner where cars had tipped over as there was no inner shoulder. If your concentration lapsed, it wasn't hard to drift into the median.
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edwaleni

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #363 on: November 21, 2021, 11:30:00 PM »

TxDOT study on cable barriers installed on I-10.


MnDOT cable median installation results.


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MikieTimT

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #364 on: November 22, 2021, 07:53:51 PM »

Cable barriers probably are better for energy absorption for the party in the midst of the accident.  But, it'd be a tough sell to convince me that with median widths like this that broken post parts flying through oncoming traffic's windshields is a reasonable tradeoff, assuming that the vehicle itself didn't still intrude into the oncoming lanes with higher angles of impact, even temporarily.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 07:55:55 PM by MikieTimT »
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bugo

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #365 on: November 23, 2021, 08:21:19 AM »

The OTA built turnpikes using 1950s standards into the 1970s. They had raised grassy medians and no left shoulders. The Cimarron Turnpike, which was opened in 1975, is built to very similar standards as the Turner, Turnpike, which was opened in 1953. The only 4 lane divided rural turnpike that wasn't built with the narrow grassy medians was the Cherokee Turnpike, which was opened in 1991.

I have noticed that the Turner Turnpike is extremely straight, with long straight stretches and very few curves. The Will Rogers Turnpike, which opened in 1957, doesn't feature the long straight stretches and has more gentle curves than the Turner Turnpike does. The post-1960 turnpikes are generally curvier than the Turner Turnpike, but there is a 7 mile long arrow straight stretch on the southern part of the Muskogee Turnpike.

This is a quote from the Oklahoma turnpike Wikipedia page:

Quote
Shortly after the Turner Turnpike was built in 1953, the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority proposed other toll roads including one to be built from Oklahoma City north to the Kansas border near Braman to tie in with the southern terminus of the Kansas Turnpike at the state line. That routing was included as part of the Federal Highway Act of 1956 which created the Interstate Highway System. As a result, the OTA could not obtain financing to build that proposed turnpike and turned the initial plans including surveys and blueprints over to the Oklahoma Department of Transportation in 1956 for the construction of I-35 as a freeway on that same alignment, which was completed in several stages between 1958 and 1962.

I question this claim, because I-35 was built with conventional medians instead of narrow raised grassy medians.. If the quote is accurate, then the ODOH significantly modified the OTA's original plans.

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MikieTimT

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #366 on: November 29, 2021, 03:24:32 PM »

Found an article about the bypassing of Siloam Springs.  Apparently, there was an AHTD study back in 2004 before they 6-laned the road through town that had some alternatives they considered.  I'd wager that the alternatives would also be considered assuming no developments impeded on them in the interim.  I can't seem to find where the study was referenced in the article below, though.

https://hl.nwaonline.com/news/2021/may/30/what-a-future-interstate-could-mean-for-siloam/
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MikieTimT

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #367 on: November 30, 2021, 10:32:54 AM »

Contacted the city administrator by email, and he was kind enough to email me the PDF of the study that was done in '04.  There were 3 different bypass routes considered, but apparently the comments by locals swayed them towards the 6-laning they did instead.

https://misc.transport.road.narkive.com/C5tPsmXj/no-us-412-siloam-springs-bypass-to-be-built

Here is a picture of the bypass options from 2004.  I didn't know how to upload the full PDF to the Gallery as I couldn't find this study anywhere online, so just saved a snip of the map.  Corridor B was the most inexpensive alternative.









« Last Edit: November 30, 2021, 10:38:27 AM by MikieTimT »
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bwana39

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #368 on: December 02, 2021, 09:48:28 PM »

I think they would have to replace the cables with Jersey Barriers or something of the sort to provide absolute separation. These opposite direction mainlanes separated by just cables just would not cut it.
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sprjus4

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #369 on: December 02, 2021, 10:35:07 PM »

I think they would have to replace the cables with Jersey Barriers or something of the sort to provide absolute separation. These opposite direction mainlanes separated by just cables just would not cut it.
It was done on an existing section of I-44 recently, south of Lawton, IIRC.
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Bobby5280

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #370 on: December 03, 2021, 01:03:29 AM »

Nearly all of I-44 South of Lawton is just cable barriers. There are some stretches featuring concrete Jersey barriers, but those are usually segments passing over creeks. I'm guessing there are certain bridge standards that must be upheld in those cases. South of the US-70 exit at Randlett I-44 spreads out with a wider median, but there is still a cable barrier running down one of the roadway edges to prevent crossover accidents. The same is true for I-44 within Lawton.
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MikieTimT

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #372 on: December 04, 2021, 01:26:54 AM »

This Bloomberg think piece might provide some push for an E-W corridor in NWA:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-11-30/austin-s-mega-growth-rubs-off-on-walmart-s-arkansas?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_content=view&cmpid%3D=socialflow-twitter-view

I hope that what has happened in Austin doesn't happen here now that the secret's starting to get out.  We are getting lots of visitors from Austin and Dallas especially in our BnB, as well as some from Oklahoma, so it's inevitable that the traffic counts are going to increase between NWA and Tulsa.  Most coming from Texas are likely bypassing the turnpikes and shunting over I-40 and I-49 from US-69, though.
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Tom958

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #373 on: December 04, 2021, 05:30:02 AM »

This is a quote from the Oklahoma turnpike Wikipedia page:

Quote
Shortly after the Turner Turnpike was built in 1953, the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority proposed other toll roads including one to be built from Oklahoma City north to the Kansas border near Braman to tie in with the southern terminus of the Kansas Turnpike at the state line. That routing was included as part of the Federal Highway Act of 1956 which created the Interstate Highway System. As a result, the OTA could not obtain financing to build that proposed turnpike and turned the initial plans including surveys and blueprints over to the Oklahoma Department of Transportation in 1956 for the construction of I-35 as a freeway on that same alignment, which was completed in several stages between 1958 and 1962.

I question this claim, because I-35 was built with conventional medians instead of narrow raised grassy medians.. If the quote is accurate, then the ODOH significantly modified the OTA's original plans.

I don't. Having a largely-completed set of plans for a narrow-median turnpike in hand would be hugely helpful in designing the eventual forty-foot-median Interstate highway.
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rte66man

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #374 on: December 04, 2021, 04:30:42 PM »

This is a quote from the Oklahoma turnpike Wikipedia page:

Quote
Shortly after the Turner Turnpike was built in 1953, the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority proposed other toll roads including one to be built from Oklahoma City north to the Kansas border near Braman to tie in with the southern terminus of the Kansas Turnpike at the state line. That routing was included as part of the Federal Highway Act of 1956 which created the Interstate Highway System. As a result, the OTA could not obtain financing to build that proposed turnpike and turned the initial plans including surveys and blueprints over to the Oklahoma Department of Transportation in 1956 for the construction of I-35 as a freeway on that same alignment, which was completed in several stages between 1958 and 1962.

I question this claim, because I-35 was built with conventional medians instead of narrow raised grassy medians.. If the quote is accurate, then the ODOH significantly modified the OTA's original plans.

I don't. Having a largely-completed set of plans for a narrow-median turnpike in hand would be hugely helpful in designing the eventual forty-foot-median Interstate highway.

Problem is that 35 wasn't built on the same proposed path of the Northern Turnpike. I'll have to dig it up but the line I saw ran further west of where 35 ended up.
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