Proposed US 412 Upgrade

[US71]

We used to have a bumper sticker around here:

I Travel US 71 in Arkansas
Pray for Me

[MikieTimT]

We used to have a bumper sticker around here:

I Travel US 71 in Arkansas
Pray for Me

I remember the AHTD sign at the top of the mountain going down into Mountainburg that had the running death tally over the last few years and the recommendation of "Don't You Be Next."  It's a fun drive now, but I remember a big crater on that road at the bottom of the decent going into Mountainburg caused by a VW Beetle sized boulder falling off the mountain onto the pavement and crushing it.  Good times...

[US71]

We used to have a bumper sticker around here:

I Travel US 71 in Arkansas
Pray for Me

I remember the AHTD sign at the top of the mountain going down into Mountainburg that had the running death tally over the last few years and the recommendation of "Don't You Be Next."  It's a fun drive now, but I remember a big crater on that road at the bottom of the decent going into Mountainburg caused by a VW Beetle sized boulder falling off the mountain onto the pavement and crushing it.  Good times...

Yup. One sign was just north of AR 74 at Winslow, the other was just south of AR 348 . I sort of remember the boulder incident.

[rte66man]

From the September 2022 Commission agenda:

Multiple Counties — Districts IV and VIII (CI-2378)

The Department has selected HNTB Corporation to provide preliminary engineering for US-412:
from I-35 in Noble County, Oklahoma to I-49 in Benton County, Arkansas. Services to include preliminary engineering studies.

CI-2378 HNTB Corporation

Total Not to Exceed Amount $3,151,110.00

I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of this cost is the stretch from Catoosa to just east of Chouteau as it is the last non-limited access section in Oklahoma. I can't see the part just west of Siloam Springs to be too complicated.

[Scott5114]

So does this mean they have reached a decision to actually go through with upgrades, or is that what they intend to find out with this $3 million?

[rte66man]

So does this mean they have reached a decision to actually go through with upgrades, or is that what they intend to find out with this $3 million?

I believe the latter is true.

[MikieTimT]

Some news on the Arkansas side of the border.  Looks like $100M for 2025 to finish the western leg of the Springdale Bypass (AR-612) that will be a segment of this future I-**.  This is according to the 2023-2026 draft STIP just published on ARDOT a few days ago.  Not a done deal, but likely won't undergo significant changes from draft status.

https://www.ardot.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/2023-2026_STIP_Draft_General_Electronic.pdf Pg. 42 (Slide 73)

[bugo]

The whole history of the Tulsa to Springdale road is fascinating. From being OK33 (I well remember the "I drove 33 and I survived" t-shirts) to it's current incarnation as US412 to future I-??.  I'll see if I can find some of the articles from the mid 1970s that might explain the great desire of people in NE OK to have a decent connection to NW AR.

The old highway from Chouteau to Flint was originally OK 11, then OK 33, then US 412, then Scenic US 412, and now Alternate US 412. And part of it is US 59. If I-?? does come through, they might end up changing the designation again.

[rte66man]

The whole history of the Tulsa to Springdale road is fascinating. From being OK33 (I well remember the "I drove 33 and I survived" t-shirts) to it's current incarnation as US412 to future I-??.  I'll see if I can find some of the articles from the mid 1970s that might explain the great desire of people in NE OK to have a decent connection to NW AR.

The old highway from Chouteau to Flint was originally OK 11, then OK 33, then US 412, then Scenic US 412, and now Alternate US 412. And part of it is US 59. If I-?? does come through, they might end up changing the designation again.

Bugo, I should have known you would still have the bumper sticker!

[bugo]

Bugo, I should have known you would still have the bumper sticker!

I don't actually have the bumper sticker. I found this image on the internet about 10 or 15 years ago, and I saved it. I did think about getting a T shirt like this printed, though.

[MikieTimT]

When they actually get I-XX completed between NWA and Tulsa, we ought to have a joint 2 day roadgeek meet starting at either end one morning, driving the new route one direction, exploring the roads of interest at the other end, staying overnight, then driving the old original back the other direction as much as remains afterwards, exploring the roads of interest at the other end.  Who knows when that will actually be, so hopefully there are some roads of interest at both ends at that point in time as some of the current road newness at both ends will be old hat by then, but surely others will crop up that we can only speculate about now.

[The Ghostbuster]

A roadgeek meet sounds good to me. How many decades do you think it will be before this roadgeek get-together happens?

[Scott5114]

A roadgeek meet sounds good to me. How many decades do you think it will be before this roadgeek get-together happens?

You could probably buy a house today and have it paid off by the time I-? is fully finished and signed.

[MikieTimT]

A roadgeek meet sounds good to me. How many decades do you think it will be before this roadgeek get-together happens?

You could probably buy a house today and have it paid off by the time I-? is fully finished and signed.

I don't know about that.  The hardest part about all of it is bypassing Siloam Springs as most everything other than the imminent completion of the western leg of the Springdale Bypass in 2-3 years is really just interchanges/short access roads in the areas that aren't fully controlled access.  Oklahoma isn't far off on their much larger portion, but Arkansas is doing fairly well as of late coming up with funds from the 1/2 cent tax for chunks of major projects.

[Plutonic Panda]

I think Oklahoma could get it done this decade. Question is will they wait until Arkansas starts the Siloam Springs bypass to build a new alignment in West Siloam Springs or will they build the freeway to the state line like Kansas with I-35? When Arkansas will start on their portion is anyone's guess.

[MikieTimT]

I think Oklahoma could get it done this decade. Question is will they wait until Arkansas starts the Siloam Springs bypass to build a new alignment in West Siloam Springs or will they build the freeway to the state line like Kansas with I-35? When Arkansas will start on their portion is anyone's guess.

They already have.  The Springdale Northern Bypass was designed as the new interstate's interchange with I-49.  The portion between I-49 and AR-112 is done other than exit numbering and signage.  That's really the only difficult part other than bypassing Siloam Springs.  The next leg from AR-112 to current US-412's divided highway section is getting funds in 2025 according to the 2023-2026 Draft STIP, so I'd expect movement on that section shortly thereafter.

012326   Benton & Washington  612 Hwy. 412 — Hwy. 112 (Springdale Bypass)   (S)   New Location   100,000(x$1000)   NARTS

They will do the section from AR-112 to where it's designed to bend south next so that they can do the XNA Connector road, so that'll be a priority as the airport access still sucks from I-49.  I image they will be studying whether to do new terrain development straight from that point, or take the bypass back down to US-412 as designed and tie in with the divided highway.  I'd bet on the latter due to funds as it only takes a few interchanges and very short access roads to convert existing US-412 where it's currently divided west of Tontitown all the way to the edge of Siloam Springs as Old Highway 68 serves very well for local access to bordering landowners most of the way of that 9 mile segment.  ARDOT has even recently replaced bridges on Old Highway 68 over Wildcat Creek and Osage Creek, and the pavement is still in good shape, even the climb lanes out of the creek valleys, so the most of the locals are well served with that facility for access.  The big question mark in all of it is the Siloam Springs Bypass.  Subdivision development is still pretty consistent north of US-412.  That's going to be the biggest unclear part of Arkansas' side until the study is complete.  If it takes more than a decade, development will likely dictate the bypass will either run up toward Gentry, or through the more challenging terrain to the south of Siloam Springs.  Arkansas doesn't have a history of buying up ROW more than a couple of years before construction, unless it's for the other 2 lanes of a Super-2.

[Scott5114]

I think Oklahoma could get it done this decade. Question is will they

If I cut your quote off here it sums up my opinion of this.

Oklahoma doesn't have a whole lot they need to do to make this an Interstate. The question is whether they will prioritize the upgrades, or will they be forever in year 8 of the 8-year plan?

[swake]

I think Oklahoma could get it done this decade. Question is will they

If I cut your quote off here it sums up my opinion of this.

Oklahoma doesn't have a whole lot they need to do to make this an Interstate. The question is whether they will prioritize the upgrades, or will they be forever in year 8 of the 8-year plan?

Oklahoma could sign the section from I-35 to the I-44 split tomorrow.

The six mile section from I-44 to the Verdigris River is already being upgraded to limited access. New pavement  is planned this stretch in 2026 with new interchanges at 265 W Ave (2027) and SH-412P(2028). The ROW to make this part of  highway limited access is scheduled in 2028.

Then the next six miles from the Verdigris River to OK-88 are slated for ROW purchase in 2028 with a placeholder amount of money scheduled in 2029 for an interchange at Co Rd 4170. OK-88 already has a limited access exit for the town of Inola.

All those dates were set before Biden's infrastructure bill was passed.

That just leaves about a 13 mile stretch before you get to the turnpike. And in middle of that stretch is US-69 near the town of Chouteau, which also has an existing interchange.

I could easily see Oklahoma being done in the next ten years from I-35 to the end of the turnpike by Siloam Springs. The extension from the end of the turnpike today to the state line will likely have to wait on Arkansas.

[Scott5114]

I think Oklahoma could get it done this decade. Question is will they

If I cut your quote off here it sums up my opinion of this.

Oklahoma doesn't have a whole lot they need to do to make this an Interstate. The question is whether they will prioritize the upgrades, or will they be forever in year 8 of the 8-year plan?

Oklahoma could sign the section from I-35 to the I-44 split tomorrow.

Not true–there is an at-grade intersection between the end of the Cimarron Turnpike and I-244 that will be awkward and expensive to either close or grade-separate. Work also needs to be done on the Cimarron Turnpike itself to meet Interstate standards. The median around the Morrison interchange is still the original 1960s launch-you-into-space style, and while a good chunk of the rest of it has been upgraded to cable barrier, I'm not sure if that meets modern Interstate standard or not.

Also, take the dates on the ODOT 8-year plan with a shaker of salt. It's pretty common for things to that appear on, say, year 5 of the 8-year plan to get pushed back a year when a new 8-year plan is published, leaving them forever 5 years away until someone gets sick of looking at them and finds the money to get them done. (Which isn't easy. We're not Texas, and our taxes have been slashed so close to the bone that it's kind of a miracle when Oklahoma actually has money to do anything.)

[sprjus4]

and while a good chunk of the rest of it has been upgraded to cable barrier, I'm not sure if that meets modern Interstate standard or not.

Considering it was done on I-44 south of Lawton, I would imagine it suffices.

[Scott5114]

and while a good chunk of the rest of it has been upgraded to cable barrier, I'm not sure if that meets modern Interstate standard or not.

Considering it was done on I-44 south of Lawton, I would imagine it suffices.

It sufficed in 1982. Will it suffice today? That's the question I have. We know a lot more about highway safety than we did in 1982, and Interstate standards have gotten stricter since then.

[kphoger]

Portions of I-44 had a cable barrier installed just a few years ago, but that was only as a replacement for the old LYIS-style median.  "Better than terrible" does not equal "meets modern Interstate standard".

[J N Winkler]

Not true–there is an at-grade intersection between the end of the Cimarron Turnpike and I-244 that will be awkward and expensive to either close or grade-separate.

Where is this?  I was under the impression it was 100% grade-separated and in Google Maps I'm not seeing any flat intersections, though there are plenty of hook ramps between Sand Springs and the eastern end of the turnpike.

[sprjus4]

Portions of I-44 had a cable barrier installed just a few years ago, but that was only as a replacement for the old LYIS-style median.  "Better than terrible" does not equal "meets modern Interstate standard".

That is true, but I wouldn't imagine they would restrict interstate designation for cable barrier. But I agree, concrete barrier is much more preferably from a safety standpoint.

[okroads]

Not true–there is an at-grade intersection between the end of the Cimarron Turnpike and I-244 that will be awkward and expensive to either close or grade-separate.

Where is this?  I was under the impression it was 100% grade-separated and in Google Maps I'm not seeing any flat intersections, though there are plenty of hook ramps between Sand Springs and the eastern end of the turnpike.

At Diamond Head Drive just northwest of OK 151: https://goo.gl/maps/sqLik77GpoY8Hke18