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Proposed US 412 Upgrade

Started by US71, May 22, 2021, 02:35:11 PM

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JayhawkCO

Quote from: bwana39 on November 11, 2021, 01:51:03 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 11, 2021, 12:46:53 PM
To be completely honest I really could care less about the designation of the road as I care more about the physical aspect. The improvements that come along with making the road a better designed freeway as part of being an interstate is what excites me. But I don't mind saying it I'm going to absolutely lose my shit if the powers that be suggest is to be I 50 and I absolutely will support it to do my part to see it become a reality so I can watch everyone here go crazy lol

I so completely agree with you.  I am not a great fan of give it an Interstate number.
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BTW: I-50 was purposely skipped because  US-50 / IH-50 could hardly miss one another.  There is no plan to EVER have an IH-50. The even numbered US Highways went from smaller  numbers in the north and larger in the south.  The Interstate numbers were opposite.

Then make it I-60 and have people go even more mental.

Chris


Scott5114

Quote from: I-35 on November 11, 2021, 10:59:01 AM
So, if this I-46, I-48, etc happens, does Perry become a control city for I-35 in between Wichita and OKC? Might be in the running with Limon for most desolate control city.

Doubtful. Oklahoma is extremely stingy with its control cities. The only in-state controls right now are OKC, Tulsa, and Lawton, which were the three largest cities in the state when the Interstates were built.

Perry has a population of 4,484, more than double Limon's. The population of Noble County, OK (which Perry is the seat of) is 10,924, almost double that of Lincoln County, CO (which Limon is not the seat of), and Noble County has a third of the land area. So while Perry would be a questionable control city choice, to be sure, it's in no way desolate in the sense that Limon is.

I don't know that I-35 control cities will change at all because of this. Certainly, northbound control cities in this case wouldn't change; anyone headed to Tulsa out of Oklahoma City would have taken I-44 instead (and anyone headed to Stillwater would have taken SH-51), so I-48 would be of little relevance to them. Southbound, you might see I-35 dual signed as Tulsa/Oklahoma City between Braman and Perry, but even that would be a little out of the ordinary for ODOT.

Quote from: I-35 on November 11, 2021, 10:59:01 AM
    And what would be the WB control city?  Enid, which will not be on the interstate?  Or Perry, which is not at the intersection either, but at least closer to the terminus with I-35?

The turnpike is currently dual signed for Stillwater and Enid, and I see no reason to change that.

I think the more interesting thing will be what the eastbound control out of Tulsa will be, and whether ODOT does anything to try to mitigate people potentially getting Springdale AR confused with Springfield MO on I-44.

Quote from: bwana39 on November 11, 2021, 01:51:03 PM
BTW: I-50 was purposely skipped because  US-50 / IH-50 could hardly miss one another.  There is no plan to EVER have an IH-50. The even numbered US Highways went from smaller  numbers in the north and larger in the south.  The Interstate numbers were opposite.

The entire reason I-50 was mentioned for this route is because it is one of the few places where an I-50 would be in-grid and yet be nowhere near US-50. (US-50 doesn't meet I-35 until about 150 miles north of Perry, in Emporia, Kansas, and it doesn't meet I-49 until Kansas City, which is a whole state north of Springdale.)
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Cerlin

Quote from: I-35 on November 11, 2021, 10:59:01 AM
So, if this I-46, I-48, etc happens, does Perry become a control city for I-35 in between Wichita and OKC?   Might be in the running with Limon for most desolate control city.  And what would be the WB control city?  Enid, which will not be on the interstate?  Or Perry, which is not at the intersection either, but at least closer to the terminus with I-35?
I doubt Perry becomes a control city, just as Belton hasn't really become a control city SB out of Waco or NB from Austin on I-35, even though that's where I-14 terminates into I-35. I could be wrong but I just did that drive last weekend and didn't recall anything relating to I-14 being a control and that interstate is relatively similar to this situation.
Hypocritical Leftist who loves driving/highways and all modes of transportation.

edwaleni

West of Tulsa I would imagine the control cities to be probably Stillwater - Enid because US-412 will be cosigned with what ever I number it gets.

East of Tulsa I would expect it to be Springdale AR.

You will probably a see a mileage sign at least once with the endpoints.

The Ghostbuster

I expect the control cities listed on the signs once the US 412 corridor will follow the ones listed on the existing signs along the present-day corridor. I still think the corridor should be Interstate 46 or 48 (save the 50 and 60 designations for much longer corridors that are unlikely to ever come into fruition).

Scott5114

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 12, 2021, 02:19:24 PM
I expect the control cities listed on the signs once the US 412 corridor will follow the ones listed on the existing signs along the present-day corridor.

Stillwater/Enid, probably, but Siloam Springs should probably go.

Quote from: edwaleni on November 12, 2021, 02:04:17 PM
East of Tulsa I would expect it to be Springdale AR.

If I was in charge, I'd probably do Fayetteville or Bentonville, actually. Yes, US-412 doesn't actually go through Fayetteville/Bentonville proper, but of the three main NW AR cities, I feel like Springdale is the least well-known.

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 12, 2021, 02:19:24 PM
(save the 50 and 60 designations for much longer corridors that are unlikely to ever come into fruition).

If they are unlikely to ever come into fruition, why should the numbers be saved?
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

MikieTimT

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 11, 2021, 12:46:53 PM
To be completely honest I really could care less about the designation of the road as I care more about the physical aspect. The improvements that come along with making the road a better designed freeway as part of being an interstate is what excites me. But I don't mind saying it I'm going to absolutely lose my shit if the powers that be suggest is to be I 50 and I absolutely will support it to do my part to see it become a reality so I can watch everyone here go crazy lol

Once this was designated by the 3 senators as an Interstate, I did my part to support designating it as I-50 in submissions to both senators that serve my state.  Time will tell if my eloquence made any impact.  If it were ultimately destined to end at the current 2 endpoints, I'd say that a 3di would be more appropriate, and if I-49 north of I-40 up to Bentonville is any indicator, likely would be as well as a temp designation until real progress started happening east of Springdale/Lowell.  But the HPC designation (HPC 8) that preceded it takes it to Nashville, which isn't exactly BFE.  I-35 to I-65 is a solid chunk of middle America at 680 miles, give or take.

Mapmikey

Quote from: bwana39 on November 11, 2021, 01:51:03 PM

BTW: I-50 was purposely skipped because  US-50 / IH-50 could hardly miss one another.  There is no plan to EVER have an IH-50. 


Here's my chance to remind the world we've already officially had an I-50 in this country:

GA 520 was officially placed into the interstate system from US 17 to Jekyll Island for 1 day as I-50.  That one day was May 7, 2006.  Why there?  That's where the AASHTO US Route Numbering Committee was meeting and they were doing a vintage car ride to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Interstates...

http://web.archive.org/web/20170202154531/https://route.transportation.org/Documents/USRN_Minutes_5-5-06.pdf

edwaleni

I guess I would say it should be a 3di based in I-44. I-444 or I-644.

It will never go farther than Enid and it will never make it across Arkansas in our lifetime.

US-412 is an interesting road. It starts no where in Tennessee and ends no where in Utah. It doesn't make it to I-25, it ends at 4th Street in downtown Springer.

Another weird factoid about US-412. The exit at Springer, Utah on I-25 going north to reach US-412? Is Exit 412. But since US-412 ends in town, the exit signage doesn't include the shield.

Mapmikey

Quote from: edwaleni on November 12, 2021, 08:06:43 PM
I guess I would say it should be a 3di based in I-44. I-444 or I-644.

It will never go farther than Enid and it will never make it across Arkansas in our lifetime.

US-412 is an interesting road. It starts no where in Tennessee and ends no where in Utah. It doesn't make it to I-25, it ends at 4th Street in downtown Springer.

Another weird factoid about US-412. The exit at Springer, Utah on I-25 going north to reach US-412? Is Exit 412. But since US-412 ends in town, the exit signage doesn't include the shield.

Despite what signage is (and NM is Terrible), US 56-412 does end at I-25 exit 412.  The application for extending US 412 in 1994 repeatedly has the endpoint as I-25 and also explicitly says US 56 ends there, too.

There is no document for extending US 56 to I-25 available (only NM document is a rejected 1958 extensino to Santa Fe request).

triplemultiplex

This should absolutely be I-46.  It will forever be contained to Oklahoma and Arkansas.  It crosses I-44, so even numbers greater than 44 are valid.  There are no viable interstate corridors between I-40 and US 412.  I-42 is taken.  Therefore, it should get the lowest available even number greater than 40: 46.

For some reason, I am especially content with having a future triangle of consecutive interstates in northeast Oklahoma: 44, 45, 46.  (Yeah, at least 1/3rd of that is wishful thinking at this point, but whatever.)

I will go as far to say any answer to the question "What number does this get?" that isn't 46, is incorrect.

If you want an I-50, I'll pitch US 54 from Wichita to Tucumcari. (Part of a longer corridor I'd consider as an I-60 from Tucumcari, NM to Lexington, KY via Wichita & Springfield, but I digress.)
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

Scott5114

Quote from: triplemultiplex on November 12, 2021, 10:25:31 PM
I will go as far to say any answer to the question "What number does this get?" that isn't 46, is incorrect.

There's an equally strong argument for 48:
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 18, 2021, 12:35:26 AM
Been meaning to do this for a while, just now got around to it:


The midpoint of the line connecting Springdale and the western terminus of the proposed interstate would be about halfway between where a theoretical grid-perfect I-46 and I-48 intersect I-35. The actual western terminus of the proposed interstate would be just about at the I-48 mark. Therefore, I believe this interstate should be designated I-48.

But I-50 would be close too. :D
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Rover_0

I'm honestly OK with just about any even number between 46 and 58; I'd kinda like to see an even number in the 50s just to see that it can be done.
Fixing erroneous shields, one at a time...

sprjus4

Quote from: Rover_0 on November 13, 2021, 02:31:20 AM
I'm honestly OK with just about any even number between 46 and 58; I'd kinda like to see an even number in the 50s just to see that it can be done.
I-58 would be a reasonable number for a corridor along US-58 in Virginia between Virginia Beach (replacing I-264 entirely) and I-95/I-85, IMO.

That's assuming a freeway is ever fully realized along that route to begin with, however.

Rover_0

Quote from: sprjus4 on November 13, 2021, 03:56:07 AM
Quote from: Rover_0 on November 13, 2021, 02:31:20 AM
I'm honestly OK with just about any even number between 46 and 58; I'd kinda like to see an even number in the 50s just to see that it can be done.
I-58 would be a reasonable number for a corridor along US-58 in Virginia between Virginia Beach (replacing I-264 entirely) and I-95/I-85, IMO.

That's assuming a freeway is ever fully realized along that route to begin with, however.

Maybe you could have both? I've had the idea of extending the US-58 designation through Tennessee to replace the US-412 designation in its entirety and create a situation like I/US-41 where up-to-standard segments connecting with other Interstates are I-58 and all others are US-58.

Definitely more fit for Fictional Highways, but it's a thought if nothing else.
Fixing erroneous shields, one at a time...

skluth

Quote from: Rover_0 on November 13, 2021, 11:56:39 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on November 13, 2021, 03:56:07 AM
Quote from: Rover_0 on November 13, 2021, 02:31:20 AM
I'm honestly OK with just about any even number between 46 and 58; I'd kinda like to see an even number in the 50s just to see that it can be done.
I-58 would be a reasonable number for a corridor along US-58 in Virginia between Virginia Beach (replacing I-264 entirely) and I-95/I-85, IMO.

That's assuming a freeway is ever fully realized along that route to begin with, however.

Maybe you could have both? I've had the idea of extending the US-58 designation through Tennessee to replace the US-412 designation in its entirety and create a situation like I/US-41 where up-to-standard segments connecting with other Interstates are I-58 and all others are US-58.

Definitely more fit for Fictional Highways, but it's a thought if nothing else.

US 58 itself is only in Virginia except for a tiny segment (about a mile) at its west end connecting to US 25E. There's already support for converting US 58 to freeway from Suffolk to I-85 (South Hill). US 58 is four lanes east of Stuart with many segments already freeway or expressway, with intermittent four lane sections west of Stuart to its western terminus. I'm not sure if it would be worth building an I-58 freeway across Virginia, but an I-58 co-signed with the current US 58 from South Hill to Suffolk would be much appreciated.

edwaleni

Quote from: Mapmikey on November 12, 2021, 08:42:16 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 12, 2021, 08:06:43 PM
I guess I would say it should be a 3di based in I-44. I-444 or I-644.

It will never go farther than Enid and it will never make it across Arkansas in our lifetime.

US-412 is an interesting road. It starts no where in Tennessee and ends no where in Utah. It doesn't make it to I-25, it ends at 4th Street in downtown Springer.

Another weird factoid about US-412. The exit at Springer, Utah on I-25 going north to reach US-412? Is Exit 412. But since US-412 ends in town, the exit signage doesn't include the shield.

Despite what signage is (and NM is Terrible), US 56-412 does end at I-25 exit 412.  The application for extending US 412 in 1994 repeatedly has the endpoint as I-25 and also explicitly says US 56 ends there, too.

There is no document for extending US 56 to I-25 available (only NM document is a rejected 1958 extensino to Santa Fe request).

Agreed that the signage is horrible. Exit 412 reports for Springer, but when you exit the sign only says what direction Springer is. No reporting signs for what exactly you are driving on. While maps says it is BL25, there are no signs to say that on the ground.

The next actual recognition that US 56 or US 412 even exists is this sign that I found.



Why they simply didn't run the signage all the way back to the actual exit is a mystery.

You would think that the beginning of a federally marked highway ( 2 no less ) to points east would garner a little more signage.

But I just read the route didn't even exist until 1982.


US 89

Quote from: edwaleni on November 14, 2021, 12:05:05 AM
Why they simply didn't run the signage all the way back to the actual exit is a mystery.

This is New Mexico. Be grateful for any signs you do get.  :-D

Molandfreak

#318
With the risk of being chased off by an angry mob, allow me to explain why this is the perfect place for I-50, and why "I will go as far to say any answer to the question 'what number should this get' that isn't 50 is incorrect."

While it's true that the upgrade starts and ends in places that aren't exactly major, there is a gap that needs to be filled by the backbones of the Interstate system: the Tulsa metropolitan area crossed one million residents this census, and is the 55th-largest metro in the country. Of the 54 metro areas larger than Tulsa, there are only six metro areas that are not served by at least one x0 or x5 Interstate: Orlando, San Jose*, Milwaukee, Hartford, Grand Rapids, and Honolulu.

I would say the fact that designating this as I-50 would put Tulsa on a major Interstate instantly makes it less of a joke than I-30 or I-45. I-30 serves DFW (already served by I-20, I-35, and I-45) and Little Rock (already served by I-40), so excluding those leaves Texarkana, whose metro area is home to a measly 150K. And I-45 serves Dallas (again, already served by I-20, I-30, and I-35) and Houston (already served by I-10), so excluding those leaves the Huntsville micropolitan area, home to about 70K, and the Corsicana micropolitan area, home to about 50K.

There are probably no other routes in this area with a remote chance of being upgraded to a freeway within the next hundred years, and the only other state that seems to be interested in pursuing new Interstates where an I-50 would fit (North Carolina) passed on the chance to designate I-50 multiple times.

And the point of it crossing I-44 is moot, since that's to be expected of a diagonal route, and I-40 crosses it anyway.

*San Jose is served by I-280, I-480, and I-680, so you could reasonably argue I-80 indirectly serves the area.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PM
AASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

Bobby5280

The numbering design of highway systems should not be tilted toward gifting particular cities a certain number just to elevate the city's ego. That's what you're asking of burning the I-50 designation on such a short and minor Interstate route. Only a few miles of it will be in Arkansas. Hell, I-44 itself would be a better candidate of being re-named as "I-50." The span between OKC and St Louis is one of the most important diagonal legs in the entire Interstate system. But I-44 is called I-44 and that's the way it is.

Tulsa is a decent sized city, but it is not in a location that serves as a transportation hub of cross-country highways like Oklahoma City or the DFW metro. I think the US-75 corridor should be upgraded to Interstate standards from McAlester up to Tulsa (and maybe up to Bartlesville as well). But I think the US-69 corridor from the Red River to Big Cabin is in even more urgent need of Interstate quality upgrades due to the enormous amount of big rig truck traffic on it. If I-45 was ever extended North of the DFW metro I would label it along the US-69 corridor. One could split it into I-45E & I-45W routes, but that's another rabbit hole.

If I had any say in the outcome I'd designate the US-412 Interstate as I-46 or I-48. Heck, it wouldn't bother me if it was labeled as a duplicate I-42 either.

Scott5114

It's way too far north for a 42, which would be roughly along the US-62 corridor east of Oklahoma City (see map above).
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

MikieTimT

Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 14, 2021, 11:29:16 PM
The numbering design of highway systems should not be tilted toward gifting particular cities a certain number just to elevate the city's ego. That's what you're asking of burning the I-50 designation on such a short and minor Interstate route. Only a few miles of it will be in Arkansas. Hell, I-44 itself would be a better candidate of being re-named as "I-50." The span between OKC and St Louis is one of the most important diagonal legs in the entire Interstate system. But I-44 is called I-44 and that's the way it is.

Tulsa is a decent sized city, but it is not in a location that serves as a transportation hub of cross-country highways like Oklahoma City or the DFW metro. I think the US-75 corridor should be upgraded to Interstate standards from McAlester up to Tulsa (and maybe up to Bartlesville as well). But I think the US-69 corridor from the Red River to Big Cabin is in even more urgent need of Interstate quality upgrades due to the enormous amount of big rig truck traffic on it. If I-45 was ever extended North of the DFW metro I would label it along the US-69 corridor. One could split it into I-45E & I-45W routes, but that's another rabbit hole.

If I had any say in the outcome I'd designate the US-412 Interstate as I-46 or I-48. Heck, it wouldn't bother me if it was labeled as a duplicate I-42 either.

To me, it boils down to this.  What routing of an I-50 between I-40 and I-70 would serve more people and gather more traffic than the US-412 route in the middle part of the U.S.?  Springfield and Joplin, MO?  And where would an I-60 be routed with that same criteria?  Why in the world does it make sense to make those numbers sacrosanct if there's no reasonable alternative routing and no hope that there will ever be much in the way of other 2di's in between I-40 and I-70 in several lifetimes?  And keep in mind that Northwest Arkansas is only just now getting it's first complete 2di, and has been growing by leaps and bounds despite it's absence.  Does anyone honestly believe that the growth will now begin slowing despite the quality of life metrics and job availability showing no signs of slowing either?  Northwest Arkansas passed Springfield's population long ago despite not being on a US-x0 highway and not on a major Interstate already like Springfield, MO is.  I think there's some that assume that I-x0 interstate belong along the routes of US-x0 highways.  That has never been the case in this country as lots of I-x0 Interstates were routed along US highways that weren't close to US-x0 highways.  It's my belief that the US-4xx highways were purposefully designated as such despite the breaking of the standard methodology of designating 3di US highways as children of 2di US routes specifically to irritate/motivate into replacing the route with an Interstate route. 

JayhawkCO

Quote from: edwaleni on November 12, 2021, 08:06:43 PM
US-412 is an interesting road. It starts no where in Tennessee and ends no where in Utah. It doesn't make it to I-25, it ends at 4th Street in downtown Springer.

It definitely ends nowhere in Utah.

The Ghostbuster

US 412 should have been numbered US 162, and should not exist west of Guymon, OK (OK 3 also should not have gone west of its junction with US 81 south of Okarche, but that's a topic for another thread).

skluth

Quote from: MikieTimT on November 15, 2021, 10:40:12 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 14, 2021, 11:29:16 PM
The numbering design of highway systems should not be tilted toward gifting particular cities a certain number just to elevate the city's ego. That's what you're asking of burning the I-50 designation on such a short and minor Interstate route. Only a few miles of it will be in Arkansas. Hell, I-44 itself would be a better candidate of being re-named as "I-50." The span between OKC and St Louis is one of the most important diagonal legs in the entire Interstate system. But I-44 is called I-44 and that's the way it is.

Tulsa is a decent sized city, but it is not in a location that serves as a transportation hub of cross-country highways like Oklahoma City or the DFW metro. I think the US-75 corridor should be upgraded to Interstate standards from McAlester up to Tulsa (and maybe up to Bartlesville as well). But I think the US-69 corridor from the Red River to Big Cabin is in even more urgent need of Interstate quality upgrades due to the enormous amount of big rig truck traffic on it. If I-45 was ever extended North of the DFW metro I would label it along the US-69 corridor. One could split it into I-45E & I-45W routes, but that's another rabbit hole.

If I had any say in the outcome I'd designate the US-412 Interstate as I-46 or I-48. Heck, it wouldn't bother me if it was labeled as a duplicate I-42 either.

To me, it boils down to this.  What routing of an I-50 between I-40 and I-70 would serve more people and gather more traffic than the US-412 route in the middle part of the U.S.?  Springfield and Joplin, MO?  And where would an I-60 be routed with that same criteria?  Why in the world does it make sense to make those numbers sacrosanct if there's no reasonable alternative routing and no hope that there will ever be much in the way of other 2di's in between I-40 and I-70 in several lifetimes?  And keep in mind that Northwest Arkansas is only just now getting it's first complete 2di, and has been growing by leaps and bounds despite it's absence.  Does anyone honestly believe that the growth will now begin slowing despite the quality of life metrics and job availability showing no signs of slowing either?  Northwest Arkansas passed Springfield's population long ago despite not being on a US-x0 highway and not on a major Interstate already like Springfield, MO is.  I think there's some that assume that I-x0 interstate belong along the routes of US-x0 highways.  That has never been the case in this country as lots of I-x0 Interstates were routed along US highways that weren't close to US-x0 highways.  It's my belief that the US-4xx highways were purposefully designated as such despite the breaking of the standard methodology of designating 3di US highways as children of 2di US routes specifically to irritate/motivate into replacing the route with an Interstate route.

You're missing the point that others are arguing, which is there is no need/desire for an I-50. Period. I won't even go into your tin foil hat conspiracy about US 4XX routes have some sinister, hidden, future-interstate purpose.



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