Proposed US 412 Upgrade

[Avalanchez71]

The more I think of it I believe US 412 was born out of AR 12.  I think that is where they came up with the number and TN just said okay whatever sounds good to me.

[Scott5114]

You're missing the point that others are arguing, which is there is no need/desire for an I-50. Period.

What does this mean? What would establish a need or desire for a particular interstate number?

[Molandfreak]

You're missing the point that others are arguing, which is there is no need/desire for an I-50. Period. I won't even go into your tin foil hat conspiracy about US 4XX routes have some sinister, hidden, future-interstate purpose.

Are you the director of AASHTO? Who died and made your thoughts on the matter the final say?

[skluth]

You're missing the point that others are arguing, which is there is no need/desire for an I-50. Period. I won't even go into your tin foil hat conspiracy about US 4XX routes have some sinister, hidden, future-interstate purpose.

Are you the director of AASHTO? Who died and made your thoughts on the matter the final say?

My thoughts are based on this statement from the previous poster which you deleted: It's my belief that the US-4xx highways were purposefully designated as such despite the breaking of the standard methodology of designating 3di US highways as children of 2di US routes specifically to irritate/motivate into replacing the route with an Interstate route. From my POV, that's tin foil hat territory. As far as I-50, nobody has made a case to justify calling it I-50. I'm not director of AASHTO. Neither is anyone else here. What's your point?

[Molandfreak]

You're missing the point that others are arguing, which is there is no need/desire for an I-50. Period. I won't even go into your tin foil hat conspiracy about US 4XX routes have some sinister, hidden, future-interstate purpose.

Are you the director of AASHTO? Who died and made your thoughts on the matter the final say?

My thoughts are based on this statement from the previous poster which you deleted: It's my belief that the US-4xx highways were purposefully designated as such despite the breaking of the standard methodology of designating 3di US highways as children of 2di US routes specifically to irritate/motivate into replacing the route with an Interstate route. From my POV, that's tin foil hat territory. As far as I-50, nobody has made a case to justify calling it I-50. I'm not director of AASHTO. Neither is anyone else here. What's your point?

I won't make a judgment on the 4xx thing. That's not what this is directed at. The point is that you're acting like a total jackass who doesn't know the difference between an opinion and a fact. You disagree that this road should be I-50. That's totally fine, and Bobby5280 agrees with you. But neither of you are Supreme Court justices ruling that there can never, ever be an I-50.

I should add that I made a case for it to be I-50 beyond the fact that it's simply a number available in the area. This is an opinion you happen to disagree with. You don't get to say "no one has made a case for it"  when I literally have.

[Scott5114]

As far as I-50, nobody has made a case to justify calling it I-50.

Nobody has really made a case to justify not calling it I-50 either. Other than the fact it might be needed for some other, more important highway...somewhere...someday...maybe.

Enid—Springdale is an interstate corridor that's here, right now, needing a number. Any even number between 46 and 62 inclusive is wide open. If ODOT decides they want I-50, then they should get I-50. No other state has tried to claim it for a more important Interstate for the past 65 years, so that should probably indicate that there isn't one coming that we need to save the number for.

As stated above, if I got to pick the number, I'd pick 48. (Although now that I think about it, it intersects with OK-48, so that might make that particular number less likely.)

[Plutonic Panda]

Maybe I am misunderstanding this but the beef from those opposed to signing this as I-50 stems from a hypothetical(extremely unlikely) complete renumbering of the coast to coast interstates? Otherwise I am failing to see why this should not be called anything other than I-50...

[Scott5114]

Maybe I am misunderstanding this but the beef from those opposed to signing this as I-50 stems from a hypothetical(extremely unlikely) complete renumbering of the coast to coast interstates? Otherwise I am failing to see why this should not be called anything other than I-50...

Not even that; the objection comes from the fact that interstates divisible by 10 are supposed to be the major east-west routes. They don't necessarily have to be coast-to-coast; 20, 30, 40, and 70 aren't and never have been planned to be (although 40 and 70 both get most of the way there, ending at I-15 instead of I-5).

The original numbering system skipped 50 and 60 because they were trying to avoid roads with those numbers potentially conflicting with US-50 and US-60, so the route that "should" have gotten I-50 is I-70. (Of course, if it had gotten that number, I-50 and US-50 would be practically right on top of each other). This means we have two major interstate numbers that have never been assigned, and which there have never been plans to assign.

The objection, then, comes from Enid—Springdale being not as lengthy or important as the other Interstate routes divisible by 10 and therefore doesn't deserve the number. To which I say, show us the route that needs the number 50 more than this one does, and show me where the plans to build that are.

[Plutonic Panda]

The objection, then, comes from Enid—Springdale being not as lengthy or important as the other Interstate routes divisible by 10 and therefore doesn't deserve the number. To which I say, show us the route that needs the number 50 more than this one does, and show me where the plans to build that are.

That's mirrors my thoughts as well. Really for I-50 to work it needs to be part of a national initiative much like I-14. One day, and I can't stretch that term enough, one day down the road a potential I-50 could be taken as far west as I-25 in Raton. Think bigger than just this small stretch. That is doable but as much as I'd like to see it anything further would likely be a political nightmare but I still have my ideas.

Same thing going further east in the future.

[MikieTimT]

The objection, then, comes from Enid—Springdale being not as lengthy or important as the other Interstate routes divisible by 10 and therefore doesn't deserve the number. To which I say, show us the route that needs the number 50 more than this one does, and show me where the plans to build that are.

That's mirrors my thoughts as well. Really for I-50 to work it needs to be part of a national initiative much like I-14. One day, and I can't stretch that term enough, one day down the road a potential I-50 could be taken as far west as I-25 in Raton. Think bigger than just this small stretch. That is doable but as much as I'd like to see it anything further would likely be a political nightmare but I still have my ideas.

Same thing going further east in the future.

As US-412 is ISTEA HPC route #8, there are plans to eventually take it to the Nashville vicinity to I-65.  Not to say any of us will live to see it, but the corridor was enacted in legislation, which is why I don't understand why anyone states that a case hasn't been made for it.  People with much more power than any of us have done exactly that.  The funding hasn't come through as there are clearly higher priorities at this time, but that can and eventually will change.  I'd rather see it go further west to Raton myself as I'd use that portion to go to Colorado Springs on trips.  However, I'd use an eastern one much more regularly to go to Jonesboro for work or even Branson on vacations, even if it didn't make it all the way to Nashville in my lifetime.  I don't necessarily care what it's called in the short or even long term.  I just have a hard time understanding where a more deserving routing for an I-50 is as a wholesale renumbering of the grid is sure not very likely.

[MikieTimT]

Why they simply didn't run the signage all the way back to the actual exit is a mystery.

This is New Mexico. Be grateful for any signs you do get. 

My brother and I drove US-412 from I-49 to its terminus in Springer, NM about 3 months ago.  Signage is certainly sparse.  What was even more sparse was road markings as they had sealed the road for over 20 miles and didn't have so much as reflective tape marking the centerline, much less anything delineating the shoulders.  Not that it mattered as we didn't see 5 cars outside of Clayton or Springer.

[MikieTimT]

The more I think of it I believe US 412 was born out of AR 12.  I think that is where they came up with the number and TN just said okay whatever sounds good to me.

I don't believe that's the case.  There's only 56 miles of AR-12 over 2 counties and the two roads never get within 10 miles of each other.  US-62 did take over the chunk of AR-12 from south of Eureka Springs to Salem way back in 1930, but that's a little too historical a route number to base the US-412 designation on.  Like everyone else here, I'd like to know the real logic behind the numbering as it certainly is non-standard, so all we really can do is hypothesize.

[Plutonic Panda]

I just have a hard time understanding where a more deserving routing for an I-50 is as a wholesale renumbering of the grid is sure not very likely.

Yep.

[splashflash]

I think the US-75 corridor should be upgraded to Interstate standards from McAlester up to Tulsa (and maybe up to Bartlesville as well). But I think the US-69 corridor from the Red River to Big Cabin is in even more urgent need of Interstate quality upgrades due to the enormous amount of big rig truck traffic on it.

Muskogee, Wagoner, and Prior are all resisting US 69 upgrading.  Could swinging a new route south of Muskogee along OK 165, of interstate quality, northeast to Tahlequah and Siloam Springs on US412 be the way forward.  Arkansas is already exploring a north-south connector from the new I-49 south of Bentonville. 

The Tulsa leg could take care of traffic to there, Bentonville and perhaps Topeka, Kansas.  Muskogee would get a bypass, already existing, the route would cross the Arkansas River and perhaps follow US 62 or a Greenfield path northeasr.  Upon intersecting US 412 there would be a short jaunt near Siloam Springs.  This leg would make use of the new I-50, oops I-46, to just across into Arkansas and AK could take care of the rest.  Thought?

[Scott5114]

This leg would make use of the new I-50, oops I-46, to just across into Arkansas and AK could take care of the rest.  Thought?

Alaska's not doing THAT well, are they?

[Bobby5280]

Muskogee, Wagoner, and Prior are all resisting US 69 upgrading.  Could swinging a new route south of Muskogee along OK 165, of interstate quality, northeast to Tahlequah and Siloam Springs on US412 be the way forward.

That concept won't have any effect on traffic along US-69. Heavy trucks in particular will stick with US-69 to Big Cabin. It's a straight shot, even if there are at-grade intersections and even a few traffic signals along the way. I think US-69 from the Red River to Big Cabin needs to be brought up to Interstate standards as much for safety reasons as anything else.

Certain interests in several towns along the US-69 corridor are trying their best to prevent it from becoming a fully limited access, be it a freeway or another turnpike. I'm hoping for a freeway. IMHO, time is steadily eating away at the clout of the anti-freeway interests in that part of the state. The situation is very clear if you look at Oklahoma's updated redistricting maps. The OKC and Tulsa metros are the only areas in the state gaining population and state house districts. The rural areas are shedding population like crazy. Down here, state district 62 used to take up the Western half of Comanche County. The new district 62 swallowed half of Kiowa County, all of Cotton County and a little more of Comanche County.

If current population growth and migration trends continue (and I see zero signs why they wouldn't) little speed trap towns like Stringtown will be little more than ghost towns in the years ahead. The populations in those towns are aging. Not enough young people are staying in those towns to sustain the population. That's because there isn't enough job opportunities or social opportunities either. The bigger cities have that.

Muskogee is really the only town along the US-69 corridor that can effectively block freeway development in that small city over the long term. The way ODOT and other pro-freeway interests can get around that is by slowly upgrading US-69 everywhere else they can, piece by piece, between the Red River and Big Cabin. If enough of the corridor is upgraded to Interstate standards I think interests in Muskogee would change their minds. The project in Calera will add new freeway to the corridor. The stretch through McAlester could be upgraded fairly easily since there are already frontage roads in place.

[Scott5114]

Certain interests in several towns along the US-69 corridor are trying their best to prevent it from becoming a fully limited access, be it a freeway or another turnpike. I'm hoping for a freeway. IMHO, time is steadily eating away at the clout of the anti-freeway interests in that part of the state. The situation is very clear if you look at Oklahoma's updated redistricting maps. The OKC and Tulsa metros are the only areas in the state gaining population and state house districts. The rural areas are shedding population like crazy. Down here, state district 62 used to take up the Western half of Comanche County. The new district 62 swallowed half of Kiowa County, all of Cotton County and a little more of Comanche County.

Eh...I don't feel very bullish about Oklahoma's increasing urban population actually making much of a difference in how the state government operates. Case in point, see the congressional district map. They sliced Oklahoma City like a pie to keep it from having its own district. It's harder to do that with statehouse districts but if they can glom a huge rural area onto a small fragment of urban area to keep it from being fairly represented they will.

[bugo]

The claim that US 412 was numbered in reference to AR 12 is ridiculously false. The original US 412 ended in Walnut Ridge, which is on the other side of the state from AR 12. The US 4xx claim made above is even more ridiculous.

[Plutonic Panda]

Certain interests in several towns along the US-69 corridor are trying their best to prevent it from becoming a fully limited access, be it a freeway or another turnpike. I'm hoping for a freeway. IMHO, time is steadily eating away at the clout of the anti-freeway interests in that part of the state. The situation is very clear if you look at Oklahoma's updated redistricting maps. The OKC and Tulsa metros are the only areas in the state gaining population and state house districts. The rural areas are shedding population like crazy. Down here, state district 62 used to take up the Western half of Comanche County. The new district 62 swallowed half of Kiowa County, all of Cotton County and a little more of Comanche County.

Eh...I don't feel very bullish about Oklahoma's increasing urban population actually making much of a difference in how the state government operates. Case in point, see the congressional district map. They sliced Oklahoma City like a pie to keep it from having its own district. It's harder to do that with statehouse districts but if they can glom a huge rural area onto a small fragment of urban area to keep it from being fairly represented they will.

At least for the next decade. I'm going to hold my breath here because I have some choice words that would likely violate forum politics rules but hopefully at the least we can see a citizens lead initiative that puts in place rules for a more fair map drawing next time around.

[BroadwayExt]

Long time listener, first time poster here. I have a couple of questions about this new interstate designation that y'all might be able to answer

1-Will the Stillwater Spur be designated as an interstate as well?

2-Does this mean that 412 will be moved to US-64 West of Tulsa and old OK-33 East of Tulsa? The whole "US-412 Scenic" thing wouldn't make as much sense anymore

Thanks!   

[-- US 175 --]

Long time listener, first time poster here.

Welcome, BroadwayExt!

[Scott5114]

Long time listener, first time poster here. I have a couple of questions about this new interstate designation that y'all might be able to answer

Welcome to the forums! We seem to be picking up a lot of Oklahomans recently (which is awesome).

1-Will the Stillwater Spur be designated as an interstate as well?

My answer would be "maybe, but don't bet on it". It certainly could be upgraded to an Interstate when the rest of the US-412 upgrade happens (contingent, of course, on any work that may need to be done to bring it up to Interstate standards). But OTA doesn't seem to be too interested in pursuing Interstate designations for their own sake. They could have easily gotten one for the H.E. Bailey Spur, but they chose to extend SH-4 over it instead. Pursuing an Interstate designation is, of course, less likely if there is any work that has to be done to get that designation.

For what it's worth, the spur did receive a state highway number recently–SH-312.

2-Does this mean that 412 will be moved to US-64 West of Tulsa and old OK-33 East of Tulsa? The whole "US-412 Scenic" thing wouldn't make as much sense anymore

This is almost certainly not going to happen. The reason is that AASHTO has had a policy since 1926 that US routes must follow the best available route between two points. (This was mostly more relevant back in the days when the road system was a mishmash of mud and gravel roads, and the road-building apparatus was young enough that there was concern about local interests manipulating US routes to serve themselves at the expense of long-distance travelers.) That policy means if a US route is upgraded to freeway, the US route is then committed to stay on the freeway. Moving it to a surface road would be moving it to a road that is not the best available route between two points, and therefore the application to move US-412 would be declined.

There are places where the US route parallels the Interstate, like US-77 through much of Oklahoma, but in this case, the Interstate was built separately and the US route was never moved to the Interstate. States have to initiate the route-designation change process, and if they have no interest in doing so, it never gets done. (This was done by design, at least south of OKC; small towns like Wayne and Paoli wanted the setup they currently have and I believe got it written into state law.)

There is one additional wrinkle here, which is that tolled US routes are not allowed except when there is a free alternate US route nearby. That's the real reason Scenic/Alternate 412 exists. (For the Cimarron, US-64 serves the role of the free alternate.)

[Bobby5280]

It's an interesting question if the Cimarron Turnpike Spur to Stillwater would get an Interstate designation. If the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur off I-44 is any precedent then I would guess not. The Cimarron Spur is a pretty short turnpike and has only one partial exit between its parent Turnpike and its terminus at US-177.

Eh...I don't feel very bullish about Oklahoma's increasing urban population actually making much of a difference in how the state government operates. Case in point, see the congressional district map. They sliced Oklahoma City like a pie to keep it from having its own district.

The cracking and packing techniques of gerrymandering are indeed on full display with US congressional districts. But I think the issues with little speed trap towns along US-69 are more of a state and local thing. A certain political party can try to do all it can to preserve the clout of itty bitty rural towns. However the population shift way from rural areas to urban/suburban is relentless.

The OKC and Tulsa metros are gaining state house districts. Everywhere rural is losing districts; seeing their district combined with one or more others. The updated state house district 61 takes up the entire OK Panhandle, plus Harper & Ellis County and a chunk of Woodward County. That's more geographical area than some small states. One state house rep gets to cover all of that. It's a visual testament to the population in those rural districts steadily dying off or migrating elsewhere. The same number of people in all those counties can be found in a tiny sliver of a district, such as district 71 in Tulsa.

Regardless of political party affiliation the interests of motorists in places like Tulsa are going to outweigh the interests in Stringtown. Anyone driving from Tulsa to Dallas would prefer an open road devoid of speed zones and traffic signals. Truckers taking US-69 from the Red River to meet I-44 in Big Cabin desire the same thing. Speed traps are universally despised. Time is not on the side of places like Stringtown.

[LM117]

AASHTO has had a policy since 1926 that US routes must follow the best available route between two points. (This was mostly more relevant back in the days when the road system was a mishmash of mud and gravel roads, and the road-building apparatus was young enough that there was concern about local interests manipulating US routes to serve themselves at the expense of long-distance travelers.) That policy means if a US route is upgraded to freeway, the US route is then committed to stay on the freeway. Moving it to a surface road would be moving it to a road that is not the best available route between two points, and therefore the application to move US-412 would be declined.

AASHTO doesn't seem to care about that policy as much these days, if the recent re-routings in NC are any indication.

[edwaleni]

Do you think they are going to grandfather this type of road as an interstate?

They would have to replace miles of steel cable with J barriers.