Proposed US 412 Upgrade

[triplemultiplex]

Both are better than a furrow of grass that begins immediately at the left fog line.
Those old grass medians look like the kind of thing you'd see police cars flipping off of in Smokey and the Bandit.

[Scott5114]

I covered it elsewhere but after looking at some research on cable barriers by TxDOT and some others, you would be surprised how well these work.

Unlike Jersey barriers where the kinetic energy simply forces the mass back into the highway, these cable barriers distribute that energy farther down the cables and keep the crashing vehicle in place like a spider web.

The one issue I can find in reviewing the data is that the cables in many cases obstructs the driver side door and first responders have to cut it. This is dangerous as the cable is essentially distributing that energy where cutting it can cause a whiplash. (sort of like an arrestor cable on an aircraft carrier failing)

Oh, my concern here is not that cable barriers don't work. I've seen probably the same TxDOT video you have. My concern is that, because the cables deform from a straight line when catching a car, because the physical median width is so narrow here, the car might still end up partially in the oncoming lane.

That, and I don't think this particular setup exists outside of Oklahoma, so I have no idea if FHWA would approve a new Interstate designation on a road with a median like this. I know Bobby says there's a stretch of I-44 like this in southwest Oklahoma, but the I-44 designation would have already been approved for that stretch of highway (when standards are lower) and the cable barriers would have been installed afterward.

[kphoger]

I know Bobby says there's a stretch of I-44 like this in southwest Oklahoma, but the I-44 designation would have already been approved for that stretch of highway (when standards are lower) and the cable barriers would have been installed afterward.

Yeah, quite a bit of I-44 in southwestern Oklahoma was retrofitted with a cable barrier within the last decade.

But, you know, that's the same highway that has a 75mph speed limit with a hard curb on the inside, so how much should we really expect?

[edwaleni]

Both are better than a furrow of grass that begins immediately at the left fog line.
Those old grass medians look like the kind of thing you'd see police cars flipping off of in Smokey and the Bandit.

Or:

TJ Hooker
Hunter
A-Team
Hardcastle & McCormick
Riptide

and any show written by Stephen J. Cannell

[Scott5114]

I know Bobby says there's a stretch of I-44 like this in southwest Oklahoma, but the I-44 designation would have already been approved for that stretch of highway (when standards are lower) and the cable barriers would have been installed afterward.

Yeah, quite a bit of I-44 in southwestern Oklahoma was retrofitted with a cable barrier within the last decade.

But, you know, that's the same highway that has a 75mph speed limit with a hard curb on the inside, so how much should we really expect?

Heh. Based on the location of that curb, it looks like their first attempt at fixing the raised grass median was to swap it with a curb and a raised paved median. OTA is something else.

[kphoger]

Both are better than a furrow of grass that begins immediately at the left fog line.
Those old grass medians look like the kind of thing you'd see police cars flipping off of in Smokey and the Bandit.

Even better is when the grass overgrows the yellow line, or they've recently mown the grass and the clippings obscure it.  Especially when you're passing a trucker pulling double trailers at 80 mph.

[Bobby5280]

I don't know what the hell the OTA was thinking about adding that hard curb to the median on I-44 coming into Chickasha. That is a real head-scratcher. It sure makes you pay attention, or just stay in the right lane.

Yeah, quite a bit of I-44 in southwestern Oklahoma was retrofitted with a cable barrier within the last decade.

The turnpikes that carry I-44 in Oklahoma all had the narrow grassy strip to the edge of the left lane until the late 1990's. Some terrible accidents, including a multiple fatality incident near Elgin forced the OTA to take action. Around 1996-97 they began adding the concrete Jersey barrier starting North of Lawton just past the Medicine Park exit and going all the way up to the Missouri border. IIRC the process took a year or two to complete.

I-44 South of Lawton remained as is with the grassy median strip. OTA didn't start fixing that issue until around 2014. That's the stretch with that cheap looking cable barrier. To me the solid 5-lane wide roadway with such a miniscule looking barrier makes the turnpike roadway seem a little like a surface street. The thump-thump-thump of those concrete joints in the road adds to that street feel.

Oh, my concern here is not that cable barriers don't work. I've seen probably the same TxDOT video you have. My concern is that, because the cables deform from a straight line when catching a car, because the physical median width is so narrow here, the car might still end up partially in the oncoming lane.

One thing I don't like about the cable barriers is they offer no room for error. If you drift into one, even just the smallest bit your vehicle is probably going to get tangled into it big time. A concrete Jersey barrier with that slanted wall design will give a motorist a small chance of getting away without too much of a scrape. It's possible for the wheels to touch it slightly, jolting the driver back into the lane. Plenty of vehicles do make hard contact with the barrier though.

A couple or so years ago I did see one guy North of the Elgin exit drift into the Jersey barrier, launching his two left wheels up in the air. The car was running diagonally for a brief moment (just like a movie stunt) before banging down and sending out some sparks. I think the driver was drunker than Cooter Brown. It didn't look like the vehicle body touched the barrier at all. The suspension probably suffered some serious damage from the hit though.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^ that is crazy because about 7 years ago before I moved to LA I was coming back from Medicine Park camping trip and something very similar happened to a truck in front of me. The guys truck was fucked but still running. He was rollin balls so I offered to give him a ride so he wouldn't get a DUI and I drove him to Chickasha. Good times.

[Bobby5280]

I called 911 on the guy I watched hit the barrier. My girlfriend and I were driving home after a road trip to OKC; we watched a movie while there and it was late when we were getting close to home. We had been watching this drunk motorist slowly weaving lane to lane for some time; I think even before we passed through Chickasha. All I could do was hang back at a distance. I was afraid to attempt passing him. I wasn't all that surprised the guy finally had some kind of accident. Still, it was astonishing and morbidly funny to see a movie style car stunt, a car driving diagonally on its right wheels, playing out in real life.

[Plutonic Panda]

Must be a lot of impaired drivers on that road.

[Scott5114]

Must be a lot of impaired drivers on that road.

If you had nothing to look forward to but going to Chickasha you'd probably get shitfaced too.

[Plutonic Panda]

Must be a lot of impaired drivers on that road.

If you had nothing to look forward to but going to Chickasha you'd probably get shitfaced too.

If you can hold the liquor OKC isn't to far up the road 😂

[kphoger]

Must be a lot of impaired drivers on that road.

If you had nothing to look forward to but going to Chickasha you'd probably get shitfaced too.

From my experience last year, I'm assuming that the Braum's in Chickasha is the redneck capital of America.

[kphoger]

To me the solid 5-lane wide roadway with such a miniscule looking barrier makes the turnpike roadway seem a little like a surface street.

When I first saw the cable barrier going in along I-44, I thought I'd feel that way too.  But, now that it's been completed, I don't.  To me, it still feels very much like a normal freeway.

[edwaleni]

Must be a lot of impaired drivers on that road.

If you had nothing to look forward to but going to Chickasha you'd probably get shitfaced too.

From my experience last year, I'm assuming that the Braum's in Chickasha is the redneck capital of America.

Where do the local farmers go for breakfast to talk about their problems in Chickasha?

[kphoger]

Farmers and rednecks are not necessarily the same group of people, in my experience.

[Rothman]

Farmers and rednecks are not necessarily the same group of people, in my experience.

^This.

Also, every mention of Braum's in this thread makes me hungry.

[Bobby5280]

If you had nothing to look forward to but going to Chickasha you'd probably get shitfaced too.

I'm pretty sure that drunk motorist was heading back to the Lawton area after getting shit-faced in Oklahoma City. He left the Interstate at the Medicine Park exit.

Farmers and rednecks are not necessarily the same group of people, in my experience.

A bunch of those guys are all hat, no cattle.

When I first saw the cable barrier going in along I-44, I thought I'd feel that way too.  But, now that it's been completed, I don't.  To me, it still feels very much like a normal freeway.

It still looks cheap to me. OTA has done as little as they can with their segment of I-44 between Lawton and the Red River. South of the US-70 Exit for Randlett ODOT rebuilt a good stretch of I-44 passing in front of the two casinos. That's actually some decent road. I also like how I-44 looks between OKC and Tulsa where they've finished the widening to 3x3 configuration. I-44 South of Lawton looks very low rent compared to that. And we still have that gawd-awful toll plaza at Walters; the OK-5 bridge going over it looks like it's about to fall apart. Even with the turnpikes set to go to all cash-less tolling I expect OTA to leave that shitty toll plaza as is, forcing everyone to still slow down to 30mph even with no human beings present there anymore.

[kphoger]

It still looks cheap to me.

This doesn't look any worse than this to me.

[Bobby5280]

That pavement on I-8 West of Yuma looks like it's in better shape than I-44 South of Lawton. While there is no cable barrier present the median on I-8 looks wider. Still, that part of I-8 is certainly way down on the list of priorities for Caltrans.

[Scott5114]

I wouldn't call the Oklahoma turnpikes cheap, but all of them built before the 1990s do feel hilariously outdated, even in comparison to the Kansas Turnpike, which was built around the same time but has aged more gracefully. Many of the county roads passing over the Oklahoma turnpikes have one-lane bridges, which is scary as shit, especially when you don't know the area very well.

[plain]

Many of the county roads passing over the Oklahoma turnpikes have one-lane bridges, which is scary as shit, especially when you don't know the area very well.

No shit!! And I thought the old overpasses on the Pennsylvania Turnpike was narrow!


PA
https://maps.app.goo.gl/S47End5a8yHCqDgt6

OK
https://maps.app.goo.gl/X5GixyNvZ9Vujjyb9

[Scott5114]

This one is the one I've had to deal with the most. Right in the middle of town, and good luck seeing if there's oncoming traffic.

[SoonerCowboy]

Many of the county roads passing over the Oklahoma turnpikes have one-lane bridges, which is scary as shit, especially when you don't know the area very well.

No shit!! And I thought the old overpasses on the Pennsylvania Turnpike was narrow!


PA
https://maps.app.goo.gl/S47End5a8yHCqDgt6

OK
https://maps.app.goo.gl/X5GixyNvZ9Vujjyb9

Thanks for the comparison, that Oklahoma bridge is some sketchy shit. I think I would drive straight down the middle and hope no one is coming from the other way. 

[SoonerCowboy]

Must be a lot of impaired drivers on that road.

If you had nothing to look forward to but going to Chickasha you'd probably get shitfaced too.

OMG Scott, that's the best laugh I've had all day.