Proposed US 412 Upgrade

[swake]

The 5 mile segment of US-412 outside of West Siloam Springs could be upgraded to Interstate standards. But the trick is how to dovetail the Springdale Bypass into it. They can't just hang a hard left or right near the Cherokee Casino. The bypass connection into existing US-412 will have to be made farther into Oklahoma. Siloam Springs looks like quite a hurdle. More development is spreading on the Northern side of town. There is less of that to the South, but the downside is the terrain is more hilly and challenging. It looks like any Interstate quality connection going into Oklahoma will require a few miles of new terrain highway before it can connect back into the existing US-412 route.

My guess is that it will be all new road as extension of the Cherokee turnpike. The Cherokee is already authorized by state law to be built to the Arkansas state line. The OTA can build it at any time, they just need to know where.

[Henry]

The 5 mile segment of US-412 outside of West Siloam Springs could be upgraded to Interstate standards. But the trick is how to dovetail the Springdale Bypass into it. They can't just hang a hard left or right near the Cherokee Casino. The bypass connection into existing US-412 will have to be made farther into Oklahoma. Siloam Springs looks like quite a hurdle. More development is spreading on the Northern side of town. There is less of that to the South, but the downside is the terrain is more hilly and challenging. It looks like any Interstate quality connection going into Oklahoma will require a few miles of new terrain highway before it can connect back into the existing US-412 route.

My guess is that it will be all new road as extension of the Cherokee turnpike. The Cherokee is already authorized by state law to be built to the Arkansas state line. The OTA can build it at any time, they just need to know where.

The way I see it, they would be better off building to the north, despite the growing development. Plus the Springdale bypass is already to the north of existing US 412, so it really doesn't make any sense to make a sudden dive to the south just to avoid the development, plus it would be more expensive due to the terrain. In a nutshell, the northern route is the only one that makes sense.

[The Ghostbuster]

Since the Springdale Bypass is not planned to be extended westward (or eastward) any time soon, I hope too much development doesn't pop up in the meantime. Do they have the right-of-way for the future extensions locked up so that structures won't be built in their path only to be later torn down?

[Bobby5280]

Looking at the area from Google Earth it does not look like ArDOT, ODOT or OTA have made any efforts to secure ROW for a future Interstate.

I'd be surprised if the Springdale Bypass dovetails at all directly with what shoots across the state line.  My money's on the existing 4 lane divided highway being converted to limited access as there aren't many crossroads to deal with, and access really isn't an issue with Old Highway 68 still to the north and mainly Ozark Natl. Forest to the south.

Are you suggesting upgrading US-412 directly through West Siloam Springs and Siloam Springs?

[edwaleni]

The 5 mile segment of US-412 outside of West Siloam Springs could be upgraded to Interstate standards. But the trick is how to dovetail the Springdale Bypass into it. They can't just hang a hard left or right near the Cherokee Casino. The bypass connection into existing US-412 will have to be made farther into Oklahoma. Siloam Springs looks like quite a hurdle. More development is spreading on the Northern side of town. There is less of that to the South, but the downside is the terrain is more hilly and challenging. It looks like any Interstate quality connection going into Oklahoma will require a few miles of new terrain highway before it can connect back into the existing US-412 route.

My guess is that it will be all new road as extension of the Cherokee turnpike. The Cherokee is already authorized by state law to be built to the Arkansas state line. The OTA can build it at any time, they just need to know where.

The way I see it, they would be better off building to the north, despite the growing development. Plus the Springdale bypass is already to the north of existing US 412, so it really doesn't make any sense to make a sudden dive to the south just to avoid the development, plus it would be more expensive due to the terrain. In a nutshell, the northern route is the only one that makes sense.

Springdale Bypass is planned to go back south and realign with US-412 west of Tontitown. It's already on the books, the route went through the EIS, they are awaiting funding.

I would imagine that when it is built out that far there will be a stub put in place (around Old Route 68) to connect it to a future update to US-412 when it is placed into interstate standards to Oklahoma.

[MikieTimT]

Looking at the area from Google Earth it does not look like ArDOT, ODOT or OTA have made any efforts to secure ROW for a future Interstate.

I'd be surprised if the Springdale Bypass dovetails at all directly with what shoots across the state line.  My money's on the existing 4 lane divided highway being converted to limited access as there aren't many crossroads to deal with, and access really isn't an issue with Old Highway 68 still to the north and mainly Ozark Natl. Forest to the south.

Are you suggesting US-412 directly through West Siloam Springs and Siloam Springs?

Not at all.  All I'm saying is that there is almost assuredly not going to be any new terrain construction of US-412 between the Springdale Bypass and what becomes the Siloam Springs Bypass.  There's going to be the dip south already for the western leg of the Springdale Bypass, so they'll almost definitely convert the existing US-412 between Tontitown and Siloam Springs to limited access due to financial and ecological constraints.  If it appears that a southern bypass of Siloam Springs looks undesirable due to topology, a quick view of the terrain using Google Maps Terrain Layer between the current end of AR-612 at AR-112 and the north side of Siloam Springs will confirm it's just as bad but over longer distance.  So the desire to have an I-4X/I-50 that goes from Lowell straight across the north side of Siloam Springs and West Siloam Springs and neatly ties into the existing east end of the Cherokee Turnpike is pretty much a roadgeek fantasy.  Maybe in a world where Arkansas was a rich state and Siloam Springs was bypassed to the north over a decade ago when it made much more sense than the stupid 6-laning through the gut of town and allowing all of the development to take the most level terrain, it could have been different.

[Bobby5280]

I know the proposed Interstate upgrade between the West end of the Springdale Bypass will likely overlap the existing US-412 divided highway some distance going West toward Siloam Springs. The big question is: where will the alignment be placed as it crosses the OK/AR border?

An in-town route through Siloam Springs and West Siloam Springs is impossible. Some kind of bypass will be necessary. Going around the North side of town looks easier from an engineering stand point. The downside is it will add more length to the bypass. But a bypass around the North side of Siloam Springs doesn't have to immediately come back down to existing US-412 on the Oklahoma side of the border. In Oklahoma, existing US-412 between Dripping Springs and West Siloam Springs could be upgraded to Interstate standards, but some properties next to the road would still have to be taken (especially if frontage roads were to be added). If the US-412 Interstate upgraded route crosses the border well North of town it could just cut a new terrain path over to the existing turnpike and shave a couple or so miles off the route in the process.

[MikieTimT]

I know the proposed Interstate upgrade between the West end of the Springdale Bypass will likely overlap the existing US-412 divided highway some distance going West toward Siloam Springs. The big question is: where will the alignment be placed as it crosses the OK/AR border?

An in-town route through Siloam Springs and West Siloam Springs is impossible. Some kind of bypass will be necessary. Going around the North side of town looks easier from an engineering stand point. The downside is it will add more length to the bypass. But a bypass around the North side of Siloam Springs doesn't have to immediately come back down to existing US-412 on the Oklahoma side of the border. In Oklahoma, existing US-412 between Dripping Springs and West Siloam Springs could be upgraded to Interstate standards, but some properties next to the road would still have to be taken (especially if frontage roads were to be added). If the US-412 Interstate upgraded route crosses the border well North of town it could just cut a new terrain path over to the existing turnpike and shave a couple or so miles off the route in the process.

At this point, it'll have to be well north of town.  Like south of Lake Swepco (Lake Flint Creek on Google Maps, but no one local calls it that), but I figure likely just to the south of the dam on the south side as it bumps up to Gentry on the north side.  It could then follow the north edge of Little Flint Creek until it gets to Flint Creek and then continue along the edge of the Flint Creek valley all the way to the east end of the Cherokee Turnpike.  I don't see it going south of Siloam Springs Lake anymore with all of the development in progress without buying up some newly built and as a result quite expensive residential housing, unless they do a southern bypass altogether.  It wouldn't shock me for them to take a northern bypass a little further north to the south side of Colcord as the terrain is easier that way and then circle back to Kansas to tie in.  Probably adds about 3-4 miles, but cheaper dirtwork for a couple of cheapskate states.  I guess we'll see in the not too distant future when they finish their study.  I'm almost of the mindset that a southern bypass is getting more and more likely the longer it takes to secure ROW, but with that said, there's lots of dirt moving on the east side of Siloam Springs now down AR-16 along Kenmoore, with more likely as soon as they finish with all the open pasture around them.  That'll necessitate a sharp bend south for a southern bypass, making its routing just as ugly as the Springdale Bypass when it finishes.  All I can say is, both states better find some money for this fast, or the bypasses either direction are going to take sharper swings along longer bypasses.  Benton County is still booming.

[rte66man]

How about something approximately like this:


IMO you wouldn't want to go any further north.

p.s. I really can't draw in this app.

[Bobby5280]

What I had in mind was a little more like this:


Sorry for the small image size; I forget what the forum size limit is, so I set the width at 800px. Also I don't know why Hurricane Express has a pin drop on it. I must have clicked on something before taking the screen shot.

[Alps]

Please do not go into Fictional territory. Wait for them to announce something.

[Road Hog]

The boss has spoken. All street level through Siloam! Breezewood will be jelly AF.

[rte66man]

Please do not go into Fictional territory. Wait for them to announce something.

I went by the title of the thread "PROPOSED US412 Upgrade". Silly me.

[swake]

Fictional and predictive are two different things.

[Alps]

Fictional and predictive are two different things.

yes, and showing "this is what I'd like to see" is fictional. predictive is "this is what i believe the DOT is going to come out with" and that really doesn't ever have a basis in reality so thread to be locked shortly if we can't get back on topic thx

[swake]

I haven't posted here long and maybe I am confused, but how is discussing the possible paths of a planned upgrade to a highway some kind of violation of forum guidelines?

These posts are certainly on the topic of "proposed 412 upgrade". I can't find in the forum guidelines where "fictional" is mentioned at all. And while there is a fictional roads sub-forum this highway is not fictional, it exists. A bill in congress was passed last year to upgrade this highway to an interstate and a study for upgrade is going on now.

[The Ghostbuster]

I have started a Fictional Highways thread on the future Siloam Springs bypass: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=31840.0.

[Scott5114]

I haven't posted here long and maybe I am confused, but how is discussing the possible paths of a planned upgrade to a highway some kind of violation of forum guidelines?

These posts are certainly on the topic of "proposed 412 upgrade". I can't find in the forum guidelines where "fictional" is mentioned at all. And while there is a fictional roads sub-forum this highway is not fictional, it exists. A bill in congress was passed last year to upgrade this highway to an interstate and a study for upgrade is going on now.

In general all speculation goes to Fictional Highways and the main forums are reserved for factual information. The reason being we don't want people getting confused and seeing the speculative maps here and assuming that they represent what is really getting built. That can lead to misinformation. Additionally, there are some members who follow these threads who are interested only in what is getting built and find the speculation to be a waste of time.

We already have 30 some-odd rules in the rules list. I'm sure it's long enough there are some people that don't bother reading the whole thing. Adding rules codifying things that should be obvious, like "please post things in the correct subforum", would just make that more likely.

[In_Correct]

Map:

For what it is worth, Bobby5280's map would be the best option so far. This highway upgrade is not fictional; It seems to be a result of the letter that I typed to Senators requesting more Beautiful
Toll Roads be constructed. Perhaps I shall include that map of the bypass in my next letter. Also to make the Unofficial Proposed Map not be misunderstood as Official, it ought to be spun off in its own thread where a Poll is included about which one is best. I would gladly vote for that Map.

Rules:

The Fictional is the most confusing about aaroads. It is so confusing, that one of my discussions about Wichita Falls was moved to Fictional. I now try to include links to the sources. I remember a time when a thread was locked while the Rules were being revised. I understand it is not possible to type every rule for every possibility until they actually happen. However, not typing them be cause people do not want to read them is a bad reason. Literacy must be encouraged.

Edit:

Even if it is not on the Rules, perhaps they have their own dedicated Post, such as this one.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=1809.0

[MikieTimT]

Before Oklahoma is able to sign anything east of the western I-44 interchange, they really need to straighten out the janky westbound US-412 interchange with OK-66.  Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.

https://goo.gl/maps/SUjj4GPLqPo859Ab7

[swake]

Before Oklahoma is able to sign anything east of the western I-44 interchange, they really need to straighten out the janky westbound US-412 interchange with OK-66.  Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.

https://goo.gl/maps/SUjj4GPLqPo859Ab7

That is already an interstate, it's I-44 itself. ODOT does have some work planned for that interchange in 2024.

[stevashe]

Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.

I-90 in Montana would like to have a word with you.

[edwaleni]

Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.

I-90 in Montana would like to have a word with you.

Too funny. I have a video somewhere of me traversing that very segment in the St Regis ravine in the dead of winter with snow up to my axles following a semi-truck (he was my plow so to speak) so I can make it to Missoula.

No plows. No sand. It was brutal. No 45mph then. It was strictly 10mph if that. Anti-lock brakes were worthless. What a memory.

[Revive 755]

Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.

I-90 in Montana would like to have a word with you.

I-55 easily beats I-90:

One 20 mph section at the west end of the PSB in St. Louis.   Northbound through the same interchange is only 25 mph.

There's also the 25 mph mainline loop on I-55 in Memphis.  Southbound at that same location is only 25 mph.

[MikieTimT]

Nothing interstate grade should have to slow down to 45 to keep semis from flipping over.

I-90 in Montana would like to have a word with you.

Terrain sort of dictates that speed there on I-90.  If you look at Google Maps Street View on I-44 there, I find that the terrain between both ends of the bend is slightly less difficult to traverse than much of the topology of Illinois.