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GAO in 1970: I-180 in Illinois Should Not Have Been Approved

Started by Mapmikey, August 17, 2021, 09:14:05 PM

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Rick Powell

#25
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on August 18, 2021, 09:03:11 AM
Looks like a palm or two was greased back in the day.  That is rich that they were willing to realign I-55 to the area just for this steel mill. 

The I-55 realignment idea was to put Peoria on a direct Chicago-Springfield interstate. The I-180 being built to serve the LTV plant was just a part of the puzzle and a side benefit. After skimming the GAO report it is apparent that the I-180 spur that would serve the LTV plant and provide a future possible link between I-80 and Peoria was a compromise offered by FHWA after they quashed the idea of the Kerner curve I-55 relocation. I would note that the construction of I-180 also beat Nixon and Congress' enactment of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) of 1969 which would have required a more transparent establishment of purpose and need for the project.  I recall some of the old timer retirees from IDOT talking about the road being built before it was completely designed, in hurry-up fashion. The GAO report said that the hurry-up caused more problems and resulted in delays and expenditures, which is not surprising.


Rick Powell

Quote from: 3467 on August 19, 2021, 11:49:52 AM
Btw Hennipen is one of the few towns with a population increase in Illinois this census.
Among other things, Hennepin has a year-round indoor swimming pool that was partially funded with taxes on the LTV plant. I took my kids there several times each year when the weather turned cold.

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: Crash_It on August 19, 2021, 10:01:39 AM
Plus I filmed further down IL71 which will be released in a future video. Didn't film the 180 section yet but I will be sure to do so the next time I'm in that area. It is very scenic.

That's perfectly fine if you want to see I-180 as scenic. I drove it and I think it's unremarkable at best, but that's my opinion.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

kphoger

Quote from: Crash_It on August 19, 2021, 10:01:39 AM
It is very scenic.

Still can't get it through your head that [scenic] beauty is in the eye of the beholder?

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 19, 2021, 01:40:03 PM
I drove it and I think it's unremarkable at best, but that's my opinion.

Totally legit.




This is kind of like how, just within the past month or so, I've seen one member describe the lonely highways of southeastern Colorado as scenic, and another member describe them as "suck".
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

edwaleni

People tend to forget the political angle.

Everett Dirksen, former Speaker of the House and elected from the Illinois 16th District, which includes both Putnam and Hennepin Counties was from down the road in Pekin, Illinois.

He was later re-elected to serve as one of the 2 senators from Illinois and was the Senate Majority Whip when the highway spending bill came through.

It was said in his time as speaker, he wielded an incredible amount of power over Way & Means and that power carried over into his term as an Illinois Senator.

He helped get Dan Rostenkowski on the House Ways & Means committee in 1964, a role he maintained and became chair of. But when he was forced to resign in 1994, that was the end of power for Illinois in Congress.

As for Otto Kerner, even today many law firms find Kerner's conviction as unfair and politically motivated. Had he lived longer it would have been overturned.

Kerner had a pretty good relationship with Dirksen during the time their service overlapped.

The Department of Energy had awarded a huge contract to build what is now the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory (Fermilab) in the western suburbs of Chicago.

Kerner also began reforms of health care in Illinois. (I know personally about this) which led to Medicaid and hospital justification planning.

During the late 1960's, Illinois carried incredible levels of political weight in both the House & Senate and many projects of Federal pork therefore came its way. (you would be shocked just how much pork Illinois got in the 1960's until the oil shock in 1973 and later when Rostenkowski left.

The point is, Illinois had 4 large political chair legs holding up the immense amount of pork headed their way in the mid to late 60's. So I-180 was really just another favor.

Somewhere there is an IDOT report showing their new justification system for interstate highway building, and when they run I-180 through that system it fails miserably. (Only I-72 to Quincy is worse)

Today I-180 is the least traveled highway with an interstate name in the nation.


3467

Great description of the political situation at the time.Ed. The Kerner curve was the original 39. on the first map of the freeway plan in 1965. There a junction of that plus 74  and US 24 at the current 155 jct. Near but not on top of Dirksens Pekin.

sparker

Dirksen, as US Senate majority leader in '67-68 during the formulation of what would become the final batch of chargeable Interstate additions, pushed hard for the original section of I-72 through his adopted home town of Decatur (and the home of one of his principal campaign contributors, ADM).  Part of the corridor was the direct link up IL 47 and over IL 10 to Champaign/Urbana -- intended not only to potentially siphon off some I-74 traffic, but to serve as an "accessway" from Decatur to his U of I alma mater.  If you look up "clout" in the dictionary, don't be surprised if a picture of Dirksen is next to the entry!   

skluth

Quote from: 3467 on August 18, 2021, 12:23:39 PM
The report said it was for the steel mill. It was the FHWA that used a redundant road to Peoria as a fig leaf. FHWA just told IDOT  that some sort of 4 lane would suffice noting it was 4 lanes to Chillicothe at the time.
This report puts everything in order.
Except why Kerner was so obsessed with the steel mill. He did end up in jail ....so...

Illinois governors (regardless of party) always seem to end up in jail  :hmmm:

kphoger

Oh yeah, I clearly remember all the ads during Blago's campaign, touting him as the man to finally rid Illinois state politics of corruption.  We are all so hopeful...
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

ilpt4u

Quote from: kphoger on August 20, 2021, 07:23:35 PM
Oh yeah, I clearly remember all the ads during Blago's campaign, touting him as the man to finally rid Illinois state politics of corruption.  We are all so hopeful...
End IL Corruption? Not in this state...

Seriously, my threshold to get a statewide office vote is who will keep the wheel greased to keep the machine rolling strong, which hasn't been going good the last 10-15ish years or so

3467

I was going to do a post in Illinois Freeway History on the fate of each of the original segments .This was not one . The other one has been discussed by Rick Powell before Illinois. It was there but it's EIS put purpose and need to connect Indiana cities. The EPA   pointed out US 41 was being 4 laned.

Once again the road is bizarre but it's great to have this document tossed behind the scenes. We don't get that often.

Brandon

Quote from: kphoger on August 20, 2021, 07:23:35 PM
Oh yeah, I clearly remember all the ads during Blago's campaign, touting him as the man to finally rid Illinois state politics of corruption.  We are all so hopeful...

Some of use were laughing our asses off at his pronouncement as we knew who he was connected to.

Of course, corruption has a very long history in this state, going all the way back to 1818.  I could bring up governors like Duncan, Matteson (for whom Matteson, IL is named), and Small.  The last of these, Len Small, was acquitted by a jury for corruption, and then hired some of the jurors for jobs.  Hell, Chicago's original incorporation had a vote of 12-1 and it was later found out that 2 of the voters didn't live in Chicago, and then in the same year, a slate of trustees was chosen 28-1, and Chicago didn't even have 29 people at the time!

Quote from: ilpt4u on August 20, 2021, 07:52:27 PM
End IL Corruption? Not in this state...

I believe the phrase is, "That's unpossible!".
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: Brandon on August 20, 2021, 09:52:16 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 20, 2021, 07:23:35 PM
Oh yeah, I clearly remember all the ads during Blago's campaign, touting him as the man to finally rid Illinois state politics of corruption.  We are all so hopeful...

Some of use were laughing our asses off at his pronouncement as we knew who he was connected to.

Of course, corruption has a very long history in this state, going all the way back to 1818.  I could bring up governors like Duncan, Matteson (for whom Matteson, IL is named), and Small.  The last of these, Len Small, was acquitted by a jury for corruption, and then hired some of the jurors for jobs.  Hell, Chicago's original incorporation had a vote of 12-1 and it was later found out that 2 of the voters didn't live in Chicago, and then in the same year, a slate of trustees was chosen 28-1, and Chicago didn't even have 29 people at the time!

Quote from: ilpt4u on August 20, 2021, 07:52:27 PM
End IL Corruption? Not in this state...

I believe the phrase is, "That's unpossible!".

But hey, Michael Madigan is gone at least, right?
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

I-39

Yes, I-180 should have never been built. It was totally a political favor. Funny how they were so eager to build this but not build US 51 between Bloomington and Decatur to a freeway.

Flint1979

I drove it one time and my first thought was where in the hell am I? My second thought was when the hell does this useless Interstate end? I'm dead serious.

edwaleni

Quote from: skluth on August 20, 2021, 05:59:36 PM
Quote from: 3467 on August 18, 2021, 12:23:39 PM
The report said it was for the steel mill. It was the FHWA that used a redundant road to Peoria as a fig leaf. FHWA just told IDOT  that some sort of 4 lane would suffice noting it was 4 lanes to Chillicothe at the time.
This report puts everything in order.
Except why Kerner was so obsessed with the steel mill. He did end up in jail ....so...

Illinois governors (regardless of party) always seem to end up in jail  :hmmm:

Jim Edgar and James Thompson seemed to have come out ok. (Thompson was the lead prosecutor in the Otto Kerner conviction)

While Thompson was not afraid to deal with the Chicago Political Mafia, by putting together big deals that included them, Jim Edgar was much more pragmatic.

Edgar met with his rivals privately and for the most part worked out things outside of the press. Like he got the PSU's to agree to cap their raises which allowed Illinois to maintain a rational budget policy. 

US20IL64

180 should be changed to IL route # and turned to at grade highway, when it is time to replace it.

Also, I-172 and I-72 extension was to placate Western IL, who complain about being called "Forgotten-onia". Mean to "bring business", but is it?

The Ghostbuster

How "forgotten" was the region of Forgottonia? Was this portion of Illinois really forgotten, or was this just whining on the part of this 16-county region?

edwaleni

Quote from: US20IL64 on September 07, 2021, 11:05:37 PM
180 should be changed to IL route # and turned to at grade highway, when it is time to replace it.

Also, I-172 and I-72 extension was to placate Western IL, who complain about being called "Forgotten-onia". Mean to "bring business", but is it?

I don't think anyone disagrees that I-180 could be decommissioned as a federal highway, but I am sure IDOT doesn't want to be on the hook for the cost of keeping up that bridge over the Illinois River.

So for all practical purposes it acts as a reliever in the event I-80 has a major problem east of Princeton. Can bypass a large amount of traffic over to I-39.

As for western Illinois and its "forgotten" status, that can be put to rest somewhat. With I-72/US36 now providing easy access to markets both east and west of Quincy/Hannibal, their growth is really in their own hands now. NAFTA did more damage to Quincy than any interstate can undo honestly as it lost a lot of its manufacturing to Mexico.

The CEO of Titan International in Quincy makes the most political noise (and contributions) and makes sure Springfield doesn't forget them.

As for why they are "forgotten" is mostly the result of geography and history.

Geography demanded the settlement of this area be at St Louis where the Mississippi/Missouri and Illinois all converge. Later the National Road (if it had stayed a straight east-west road) would have crossed at Quincy, but diverted southwest to reach St Louis.

The other ended being farther north at Rock Island. It was easier to cross the Mississippi at Rock Island. As Chicago grew, so did the desire of railroads to cross over at Rock Island. So the Quad Cities came to be.

I-72 and I-172 don't bother me as much as I-180 does. That part of the state was losing population and economic vitality, Quincy alone lost 12% of its population after I-72 was finished, most of that due to lost industry post NAFTA.




US20IL64

Here is more info https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgottonia

"Forgottonia represented a protest against inequalities in state and federal funding of infrastructure (e.g. transportation), communications and economic development in the region after World War II."




3467

It's the Quincy newspaper owner is one of the biggest . He sold his TV stations for 900 milion recently But it puts them in with DOT foods as the two richest downstate families..
Also a lot of work has been done on 67. The section in North Warren County is going from worst to best 2 lane. Really 34 feet of pavement .Plus gravel and turf shoulder .

34 and 24 are getting 4 lane section s too.

Bruce

This newspaper report (carried by the AP) in 1970 describes the GAO findings: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/21731160/interstate-180-illinois/

I-705 in Tacoma is mentioned as being deferred in favor of funding I-180, which is funny because both are useless for different reasons.

edwaleni

I asked a retired highway engineer who is not from Illinois on the existence of I-180.

While he was aware of the circumstances of its creation, he said it will probably never get struck from the federal record because it crosses over a federal waterway.

It's very hard to get federally funded highways over federal waterways struck from the record regardless of their utility.

He recited a litany of waterways in the US that are still on the federal record and therefore subject to federal rules and designations. He then told me that many are worthless and haven't been used for navigation in ages, but the rules are there.

Something I had never thought of.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: edwaleni on September 18, 2021, 10:45:15 PM
I asked a retired highway engineer who is not from Illinois on the existence of I-180.

While he was aware of the circumstances of its creation, he said it will probably never get struck from the federal record because it crosses over a federal waterway.

It's very hard to get federally funded highways over federal waterways struck from the record regardless of their utility.

He recited a litany of waterways in the US that are still on the federal record and therefore subject to federal rules and designations. He then told me that many are worthless and haven't been used for navigation in ages, but the rules are there.

Something I had never thought of.


That's really interesting, and likely why none of the state and US highways running through Green Bay have been moved to the freeways bypassing the cities since the Fox River is a federal waterway up to the dam in De Pere.

edwaleni

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 19, 2021, 10:27:42 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on September 18, 2021, 10:45:15 PM
I asked a retired highway engineer who is not from Illinois on the existence of I-180.

While he was aware of the circumstances of its creation, he said it will probably never get struck from the federal record because it crosses over a federal waterway.

It's very hard to get federally funded highways over federal waterways struck from the record regardless of their utility.

He recited a litany of waterways in the US that are still on the federal record and therefore subject to federal rules and designations. He then told me that many are worthless and haven't been used for navigation in ages, but the rules are there.

Something I had never thought of.


That's really interesting, and likely why none of the state and US highways running through Green Bay have been moved to the freeways bypassing the cities since the Fox River is a federal waterway up to the dam in De Pere.

Do the locks even operate above Des Pere? There are drawbridges all the way to OshKosh until you reach the Tribal Heritage Bridge (I-41). And that definitely wasn't built to Federal standards for a waterway.



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