Traffic signal

[jakeroot]

At the McDonough/Houbolt intersection the signals use horizontal heads on all the mast arms - I am guessing this has to do with the nearby airport.

I'd accept that explanation, but it seems silly when there appears to be trees taller than the mast arms all around the intersection...

The only intersection in BC (that I know of) with all-posted mounted signals is right next to an airport, though the takeoff/landing path is hardly at the height of mast arms. FAA/Transport Canada laws can be awfully strict sometimes (even if nearby trees appear to be bigger threats): https://goo.gl/bwCPDg (note the posts have flashing red lights on top, as required by Transport Canada).

I will say that, in that Joliet intersection, the flight path does not appear to intersect with any trees, and the mast arms are the tallest thing after the runway. Also note the short mast lighting.

[bcroadguy]

I had no idea that existed. Good find!

[MNHighwayMan]

By the way, don't wait at the sensor. Just turn in a gap or at the end. You don't need an arrow if you're the only one waiting.

Let me clarify: that wasn't something I did all the time (nor is it something I do anymore). For two and a half years I did pizza delivery, and I made hundreds if not more than a thousand left turns at that very specific signal. At 2 pm on a Sunday, that sensor trickery wasn't necessary. But on a week day, during the 4-6 pm time frame? You were, probably >75 percent of the time, waiting until the end of that light cycle to turn left if you didn't. That 90 seconds (or whatever it was) made a big difference in the time it took to make deliveries, and thus the number of deliveries you were able to make (and the amount of tips earned).

[Scott5114]

Some newer intersections in Edmonton, Alta have horizontal and vertical signals on the same mast: https://goo.gl/d1Hcsm.

The signal with the pro/per arrow is vertical, whereas the standard through head is horizontal. Edmonton has been using a variation of this for quite a long time. Traditionally, signals with the pro/per arrow were located in the median, aligned vertically (of course), and the overhead through signals were horizontal. Edmonton has recently started placing these left turn signals (protected, or protected/permissive) overhead, but has maintained the vertical alignment. That said, median-mounted signals are still installed, as far as I know.





I'm pretty sure I've seen this in Yakima, WA as well, at intersections with FYA retrofits. But I cannot remember where.

Lawton, OK has a few intersections with the reverse setup: horizontal turn signals and vertical thru signals.

[jakeroot]

I had no idea that existed. Good find!

I haven't actually been through the intersection in person. I just saw it on a dash cam clip, and saved it for later. It is very unique!

By the way, don't wait at the sensor. Just turn in a gap or at the end. You don't need an arrow if you're the only one waiting.

Let me clarify: that wasn't something I did all the time (nor is it something I do anymore). For two and a half years I did pizza delivery, and I made hundreds if not more than a thousand left turns at that very specific signal. At 2 pm on a Sunday, that sensor trickery wasn't necessary. But on a week day, during the 4-6 pm time frame? You were, probably >75 percent of the time, waiting until the end of that light cycle to turn left if you didn't. That 90 seconds (or whatever it was) made a big difference in the time it took to make deliveries, and thus the number of deliveries you were able to make (and the amount of tips earned).

Understandable. My defensive response is mostly the result of my preference for lagging left turns (which if properly programmed, may not need a green arrow phase). I consider the biggest threat to green waves to be the left turn signal, so I try my best to set them off as little as possible (even if it's not in my own best interest -- I'm very considerate behind the wheel) . Sometimes, I'll even sit in the through lane, wait for the light to turn green, and then slide over into the left turn lane just so that oncoming cars can get a move on (cameras are common here so I can't trick it by positioning myself any other way). Many left turn signals in my area have a minimum green arrow time of at least five or six seconds (long after one car has cleared the intersection), which I consider to be insultingly long (really should only be green if someone is waiting behind the stop line -- minimum maybe closer to two or three seconds would be better).

Some newer intersections in Edmonton, Alta have horizontal and vertical signals on the same mast: https://goo.gl/d1Hcsm.

The signal with the pro/per arrow is vertical, whereas the standard through head is horizontal. Edmonton has been using a variation of this for quite a long time. Traditionally, signals with the pro/per arrow were located in the median, aligned vertically (of course), and the overhead through signals were horizontal. Edmonton has recently started placing these left turn signals (protected, or protected/permissive) overhead, but has maintained the vertical alignment. That said, median-mounted signals are still installed, as far as I know.

https://i.imgur.com/A6pebSc.png

Lawton, OK has a few intersections with the reverse setup: horizontal turn signals and vertical thru signals.

Eeek. I don't mind Edmonton's design because it's more or less symmetrical (vertical mast/through, horizontal through, horizontal through, vertical left); the opposite seems to me like it might "trigger" my inner OCD.

[Scott5114]

Found a couple of pictures on my hard drive.



Note that not every intersection in Lawton is like this. The majority are all horizontal or all vertical.

[jakeroot]

Found a couple of pictures on my hard drive.
https://i.imgur.com/pLJKENp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/27eyjSP.jpg

Note that not every intersection in Lawton is like this. The majority are all horizontal or all vertical.

[jeffandnicole]

...Sometimes, I'll even sit in the through lane, wait for the light to turn green, and then slide over into the left turn lane just so that oncoming cars can get a move on (cameras are common here so I can't trick it by positioning myself any other way). Many left turn signals in my area have a minimum green arrow time of at least five or six seconds (long after one car has cleared the intersection), which I consider to be insultingly long (really should only be green if someone is waiting behind the stop line -- minimum maybe closer to two or three seconds would be better).

That would seem awfully confusing to drivers behind you.  The traffic designers do everything based on normal expectations of drivers, so don't worry if you're making opposing traffic wait.  You don't know how the next signal they encounter will affect them, so your hard work of letting them go here may just let them get stuck at the next red light anyway.

As far as for the length of the green, I'm used to the green being as long as necessary. If there's only one car, that green arrow should have turned to yellow before the car even completed the turn.  Anything else does seem excessive.

[MNHighwayMan]

Found a couple of pictures on my hard drive.
https://i.imgur.com/pLJKENp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/27eyjSP.jpg

Note that not every intersection in Lawton is like this. The majority are all horizontal or all vertical.

https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*j_tOGIkKynt11RTYZRvhhA.gif

You know, I think it'd actually look halfway decent if they used all arrows on the left-turn heads.

[jakeroot]

...Sometimes, I'll even sit in the through lane, wait for the light to turn green, and then slide over into the left turn lane just so that oncoming cars can get a move on (cameras are common here so I can't trick it by positioning myself any other way). Many left turn signals in my area have a minimum green arrow time of at least five or six seconds (long after one car has cleared the intersection), which I consider to be insultingly long (really should only be green if someone is waiting behind the stop line -- minimum maybe closer to two or three seconds would be better).

That would seem awfully confusing to drivers behind you.  The traffic designers do everything based on normal expectations of drivers, so don't worry if you're making opposing traffic wait.  You don't know how the next signal they encounter will affect them, so your hard work of letting them go here may just let them get stuck at the next red light anyway.

As far as for the length of the green, I'm used to the green being as long as necessary. If there's only one car, that green arrow should have turned to yellow before the car even completed the turn.  Anything else does seem excessive.

Well, as you might imagine, the maneuver is only possible when traffic is generally quiet, so I'm not particularly worried about what others around me are thinking. I'd prefer to see oncoming traffic get a move on first so that they have a better chance of making the next green. I don't know what signal they are eventually approaching, of course. But I do know that the longer they wait at the current signal, the less likely they are to make the next signal (should it be green).

Yes, the green arrow phases around here seem excessive. This is the main motive behind my maneuver. Sometimes I'll see them last 10+ seconds without any cars approaching. It's extremely tedious waiting for these types of lights to change, so I try to not set them off.

[Brandon]

McDonough & Joyce

I had been wondering if diagonal span wire had ever been done in Illinois . . .

At the McDonough/Houbolt intersection the signals use horizontal heads on all the mast arms - I am guessing this has to do with the nearby airport.

Yes.  The intersection is at the end of the runway.

[roadman65]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/43025114281/in/dateposted-public/
Notice that Georgia likes to do the spanwire box with the box being pulled from its strain poles from another cable instead of them strung out directly from the poles.

In Florida a friend of mine working in Orange County Public Works tells me that in Orange County, FL some intersections are done that way as that setup is more stronger in high winds from being blown apart.  Now I imagine in Georgia its not cause of high storm force winds like FL has.  I was wondering what other reason could this spanwire assembly have over normal practices?

[SignBridge]

If they want the installation to be storm resistant, why don't they use mast-arms instead?

[paulthemapguy]

At the McDonough/Houbolt intersection the signals use horizontal heads on all the mast arms - I am guessing this has to do with the nearby airport.

I'd accept that explanation, but it seems silly when there appears to be trees taller than the mast arms all around the intersection...

Can confirm, as I work for the agency that erected the signal lol.  It's because of the airport.  If you look at an aerial, you'll see that the southeast-oriented landing strip takes planes DIRECTLY OVER the intersection.  Upward protrusions close to landing strips like that need a small light at the top to signal to pilots flying in the dark that something's there.  That small colored light would be really confusing for drivers if it's right next to all the sections directing drivers on what to do.  So, just eliminate the protrusion by orienting the signal sideways.  What I like about that signal is that the indications are sequenced from left to right--something that agencies in Illinois will mess up (COUGH CHICAGO COUGH) since horizontally-oriented signal heads are uncommon and foreign to us in the state.

I know the guy who probably made the decision to go with the horizontal signal heads, and I think he made the decision to use horizontal signal heads on this mast arm as well.  https://goo.gl/maps/jmXFg6dttE82

Also, re: the McDonough & Joyce signal...that signal is the most heinous garbage piece of crap disgrace that I have ever seen in the state of Illinois.  It should be demolished and replaced with something...adequate.

[roadman65]

If they want the installation to be storm resistant, why don't they use mast-arms instead?

Mast arms are too expensive I would believe!  What is interesting is that Hillsborough County is gone back to span wires and are using one cable supports as Florida always had two cables (one on top that supported the weight of the heads while the bottom one had the power supply wrapped around it) and getting to be like NYSDOT with the different length suspending bar to keep the heads level as the one wire assembly droops.

[jakeroot]

I was watching this clip from Oman (Muscat specifically, and this intersection in particular), and noticed a U-turn signal. I have not seen these outside of the US before:

(If it doesn't jump automatically, go to 16:55).

https://youtu.be/znMpAxlGxJA?t=16m55s

[roadman65]

https://goo.gl/maps/FSNYFZwWntr
Noticing how Pennsylvania likes to just change out signal poles when needed.  Here in Collegeville there are mast arms with both types of visors.  Obviously the tunnel visors are new (they are so shiny yellow) and the cut outs are old.

Am I to assume that Pennsylvania phased out cut out visors completely now?

[jakeroot]

https://goo.gl/maps/FSNYFZwWntr
Noticing how Pennsylvania likes to just change out signal poles when needed.  Here in Collegeville there are mast arms with both types of visors.  Obviously the tunnel visors are new (they are so shiny yellow) and the cut outs are old.

Am I to assume that Pennsylvania phased out cut out visors completely now?

Two things that intrigue me more about that intersection:

1) why some signals have backplates and others don't; and
2) why the SB approach from Germantown Pike has a red orb lit up during the green arrow phase. Understandable if a left or straight movement were allowed there, but it's just that slight right. I'm trying to think of a phase where the red orb wouldn't be lit, but can't think of any.

[jeffandnicole]

https://goo.gl/maps/FSNYFZwWntr
Noticing how Pennsylvania likes to just change out signal poles when needed.  Here in Collegeville there are mast arms with both types of visors.  Obviously the tunnel visors are new (they are so shiny yellow) and the cut outs are old.

Am I to assume that Pennsylvania phased out cut out visors completely now?

Two things that intrigue me more about that intersection:

1) why some signals have backplates and others don't; and
2) why the SB approach from Germantown Pike has a red orb lit up during the green arrow phase. Understandable if a left or straight movement were allowed there, but it's just that slight right. I'm trying to think of a phase where the red orb wouldn't be lit, but can't think of any.

That red light/green arrow was a standard configuration, both in PA and in Delaware. They've done away with most of them, but a few still exist like you see here.

[MNHighwayMan]

I was watching this clip from Oman (Muscat specifically, and this intersection in particular), and noticed a U-turn signal. I have not seen these outside of the US before:

(If it doesn't jump automatically, go to 16:55).

https://youtu.be/znMpAxlGxJA?t=16m55s

Also interesting is the option lane signal head over the middle lane starting at 17:40.

[roadman65]

https://goo.gl/maps/FSNYFZwWntr
Noticing how Pennsylvania likes to just change out signal poles when needed.  Here in Collegeville there are mast arms with both types of visors.  Obviously the tunnel visors are new (they are so shiny yellow) and the cut outs are old.

Am I to assume that Pennsylvania phased out cut out visors completely now?

Two things that intrigue me more about that intersection:

1) why some signals have backplates and others don't; and
2) why the SB approach from Germantown Pike has a red orb lit up during the green arrow phase. Understandable if a left or straight movement were allowed there, but it's just that slight right. I'm trying to think of a phase where the red orb wouldn't be lit, but can't think of any.

That red light/green arrow was a standard configuration, both in PA and in Delaware. They've done away with most of them, but a few still exist like you see here.

I also see that WB Germantown Pike also when green, is silmutaneous with the left turn permissive left on EB Germantown sort of like Germantown in both directions free flows together.  The straight through for Ridge Pike is sort of like a permanent right on red and goes when WB Ridge is cleared to go onto WB Germantown.

If it were not for the side driveway a permanent green arrow could be placed over EB Germantown and just have a green solo left green arrow over the left lane when the light is red on WB Ridge.

Yes the lack of back plates on some signal heads is more odd, but common in Orlando.  After Charley knocked down many backplates in 2004 some signals are still mismatched with side by side signal heads with one with a back plate and the other without.  Then on CR 532 in Reunion, FL they have a left turn signal head without a back plate but the two straight throughs next to it are back plated.  The protected left was added later and when they removed the original doghouse and for some reason when they had to add two standard 3 section heads they replaced the two with one and the other.

So Florida is bad also and not only PA when it comes to signals.

[Brandon]

Also, re: the McDonough & Joyce signal...that signal is the most heinous garbage piece of crap disgrace that I have ever seen in the state of Illinois.  It should be demolished and replaced with something...adequate.

That thing's been that way since about 1974, when Jefferson Square opened.  It used to feature a right turn arrow for the right turn lane on McDonough.  One of those 3M lights that could also change color from green to yellow.

[jakeroot]

Seattle never ceases to confuse me.

I have no idea how long these have been in place, but SDOT has installed a 4-section FYA where the bottom arrow is bi-modal (see 0:04 below):

https://youtu.be/2znH9az2WpE

Google Maps: https://goo.gl/bPsaab

No idea if this is allowed, but I suspect it probably isn't (at least when four heads are used -- obviously normal practice for certain 3-head FYAs). Not sure what the advantage would be either, except that the top solid yellow would only be used at the end of a permissive phase, and the bottom only being used at the end of the protected phase. It's the one thing about FYAs that's always bothered me.

[riiga]

Very strange to have a yellow arrow in three different places...

[roadfro]

Seattle never ceases to confuse me.

I have no idea how long these have been in place, but SDOT has installed a 4-section FYA where the bottom arrow is bi-modal (see 0:04 below):
<snipped video>
No idea if this is allowed, but I suspect it probably isn't (at least when four heads are used -- obviously normal practice for certain 3-head FYAs). Not sure what the advantage would be either, except that the top solid yellow would only be used at the end of a permissive phase, and the bottom only being used at the end of the protected phase. It's the one thing about FYAs that's always bothered me.

Definitely not MUTCD-approved. I don't get the reasoning for that.

Jake, are you saying that using the steady yellow to end both permissive and protected lefts is what bothers you? Why?