I-35 in OK from Purcel to the TX border: designed for high speed rail?

[Bobby5280]

Amtrak could add a station to the current Heartland Flyer line a mile from Winstar and have the casino run shuttles from the NB and SB trains - I'm not sure why this is never discussed.  I get that the casino makes money on bus shuttles, but the line is right there.

If they want a train station serving WinStar the Chickasaw tribe might have to put up some money for that too. I think Amtrak might be hesitant to build a station there since the one in Gainesville is just a short drive to the South. Even the casino people might not see much value in it. The Heartland Flyer runs just one train down from OKC to Fort Worth and back up to OKC per day. Casino operators might not want customers worrying about getting to a train station on time.

The Heartland Flyer is worth riding at least once. But it's an all-day thing, especially when riding to Fort Worth from OKC.

I feel like the old way of accessing WinStar, getting off at Exit 1 and seeing the casino slowly come into view as you go up the frontage road, was a lot cooler than the approach from the north you get at Exit 3.

At least the portion of I-35 in front of the casino is now improved to a 3x3 configuration.

[kphoger]

If I were Amtrak, I'd be hesitant to build a new station just to serve a business that could conceivably shut down in a few years.

[bwana39]

If I were Amtrak, I'd be hesitant to build a new station just to serve a business that could conceivably shut down in a few years.

It could almost be as little as a commuter train stop in urban areas. A State Police weigh station building would be more than enough.

In many places, you already have to use the train steps to board adn disembark.

[kphoger]

In many places, you already have to use the train steps to board adn disembark.

No longer ADA-compliant for new stations, except in certain situations, and then only if some other accommodation is made for disabled passengers.

Title 49 — Transportation
Subtitle A — Office of the Secretary of Transportation
Part 37 — Transportation Services for Individuals with Disabilities (ADA)

§ 37.42 — Service in an Integrated Setting to Passengers at Intercity, Commuter, and High-Speed Rail Station Platforms Constructed or Altered After February 1, 2012.

(b) For new or altered stations serving commuter, intercity, or high-speed rail lines or systems, in which no track passing through the station and adjacent to platforms is shared with existing freight rail operations, the performance standard of paragraph (a) of this section must be met by providing level-entry boarding to all accessible cars in each train that serves the station.

(c) For new or altered stations serving commuter, intercity, or high-speed rail lines or systems, in which track passing through the station and adjacent to platforms is shared with existing freight rail operations, the railroad operator may comply with the performance standard of paragraph (a) by use of one or more of the following means:

  (1) Level-entry boarding;

  (2) Car-borne lifts;

  (3) Bridge plates, ramps or other appropriate devices;

  (4) Mini-high platforms, with multiple mini-high platforms or multiple train stops, as needed, to permit access to all accessible cars available at that station; or

  (5) Station-based lifts;

General Counsel

49 CFR §§37.41-43; 37.9(a), (d);
49 CFR Part 37, App. A (810.5.3)

December 14, 2011

... section 37.42 requires a railroad that alters a station platform and does not provide level boarding to ensure that passengers with disabilities can board any accessible car of a train available to other passengers at that station, using means including car-borne lifts, station-based lifts, or mini-high platforms.

[Scott5114]

If I were Amtrak, I'd be hesitant to build a new station just to serve a business that could conceivably shut down in a few years.

The Chickasaw Nation has never closed a casino in the 40 years they've operated them.

[Plutonic Panda]

Didn't they study a stop at WinStar not that long ago?

[kphoger]

If I were Amtrak, I'd be hesitant to build a new station just to serve a business that could conceivably shut down in a few years.

The Chickasaw Nation has never closed a casino in the 40 years they've operated them.

That may be so, but it's a lot easier to close a business than an entire town.

[Bobby5280]

The only way any casinos are going to shut down in Oklahoma via politics. And chances are very slim on that, despite how conservative the state's "lawmakers" can be. Things have gone the opposite direction on a couple issues, medical marijuana and the changes in liquor laws (no more 3.2 near beer BS). Even if our state's politicians wanted to ban casinos they would hit a brick wall with the sovereign status of tribal jurisdictions. The federal government wouldn't let them get anywhere. On top of that, they would risk pissing off a bunch of their own constituents. A bunch of white voters sure like spending a lot of time and money in those casinos.

[bwana39]

The only way any casinos are going to shut down in Oklahoma via politics. And chances are very slim on that, despite how conservative the state's "lawmakers" can be. Things have gone the opposite direction on a couple issues, medical marijuana and the changes in liquor laws (no more 3.2 near beer BS). Even if our state's politicians wanted to ban casinos they would hit a brick wall with the sovereign status of tribal jurisdictions. The federal government wouldn't let them get anywhere. On top of that, they would risk pissing off a bunch of their own constituents. A bunch of white voters sure like spending a lot of time and money in those casinos.

If mark Cuban and his friends have their way, it wouldn't close the casinos, but it would be like Tunica County MS.

[Plutonic Panda]

As much as it would suck, Oklahoma's time leeching off of Texas's growth from casinos is limited. Oklahoma has had so many opportunities like full Vegas like commercialization of casinos and legalization of recreational weed and Psilocybin products the state could have reaped in money from Texas residents but chooses to chase after other issues that will not benefit it. The state gets what it deserves honestly. So many chances wasted.

[SoonerCowboy]

If I were Amtrak, I'd be hesitant to build a new station just to serve a business that could conceivably shut down in a few years.

The Chickasaw Nation has never closed a casino in the 40 years they've operated them.

I agree Scott I do not see the "world's largest" casino closing anytime soon.

[I-35]

The only way any casinos are going to shut down in Oklahoma via politics. And chances are very slim on that, despite how conservative the state's "lawmakers" can be. Things have gone the opposite direction on a couple issues, medical marijuana and the changes in liquor laws (no more 3.2 near beer BS). Even if our state's politicians wanted to ban casinos they would hit a brick wall with the sovereign status of tribal jurisdictions. The federal government wouldn't let them get anywhere. On top of that, they would risk pissing off a bunch of their own constituents. A bunch of white voters sure like spending a lot of time and money in those casinos.

If mark Cuban and his friends have their way, it wouldn't close the casinos, but it would be like Tunica County MS.

Obviously billionaires have a plan, but if they roll out a limited number of licensed casinos in Texas, it's conceivable that the DFW area gets one or two.  If that's the case, these casinos would have to be gargantuan to serve the captive market.  And even with that, I just don't see them staying 'nice' for very long because two casinos do not go far for a market with eight million people an average 30-minute drive away.  And I'm not sure they have major impacts on the ones in place at Winstar and Choctaw, because those are as easily reachable from the northern suburbs as a new one located in Fort Worth or near Irving, for instance.  It would mark the death knell for Shreveport/Bossier, though.

Also a good time to point out that the Chickasaws already own Lone Star Park, so that's a shoe-in for a new casino should TX legalize gambling.

[Scott5114]

Not to mention that hardcore gamblers aren't rational actors so they don't treat casinos as fungible. If a gambler perceives (whether or not it is actually true) that a Texas casino doesn't pay out as well as WinStar, they will happily drive past the new casino to go to the one they're used to going to. And if they have enough of a history at WinStar to get comps it may make more sense to keep patronizing it than to try and build up a play history from scratch at a new place.

[I-35]

Not to mention that hardcore gamblers aren't rational actors so they don't treat casinos as fungible. If a gambler perceives (whether or not it is actually true) that a Texas casino doesn't pay out as well as WinStar, they will happily drive past the new casino to go to the one they're used to going to. And if they have enough of a history at WinStar to get comps it may make more sense to keep patronizing it than to try and build up a play history from scratch at a new place.

Agreed, I hadn't considered that aspect.  A selfish part of me wants the tribal ones to remain robust because they have such an oversized economic impact on relatively lightly populated areas.  A casino in Dallas, while popular, doesn't really increase the economic base of Dallas by anything significant.  But it's a different story when they are in Love County or Durant.

[motorola870]

Noticed that I-35 in Oklahoma has a wide median, mostly 90' or more, from south of Purcell to Marietta near the Texas border.  But more interesting, all but 1 of the curves (at the sb foot of the climb over the Arbuckle 'mountains') are designed with a very gentle standard curve, about a 2 mile radius.  A radius that happens to be wide enough to support 150 mph for passenger trains.  The south ends lines up well with for a new track coming off the freeway southbound to join the BNSF line to cross into Texas.  Similarly for the north end for a new track to cut over to the BNSF south of Purcell to then follow into the OKC metro.

Is that just a coincidence?  I found some examples elsewhere in OK, but plenty of exceptions, and a quick search didn't find similarly large curves in Texas.  I can think of plenty of other reasons for wide medians and gentle curves, but a little surprised at the standardization on the particular 76 mile stretch.

The biggest issue with this is the Arbuckle mountains. They are potentially going to have do work cutting out rock or stablelizing the cut throughs just to 3 lane the interstate to combat congestion from the traffic going from Dallas to Oklahoma City. The cost for a tunnel for rail in the mountains would be cost prohibitive.

[motorola870]

Didn't they study a stop at WinStar not that long ago?

How would they do it though? The tracks are on the west side of US77 at exit 1. Would it be cost effective to cut through part of Thackerville with a spur that crosses the interstate to serve Winstar? Or just bus Casino patrons from a stop in Thackerville to the Casino via the exit 1 underpass?

[motorola870]

Perhaps it is best, considering that the new Bridges to span Red River in future includes plans to " convert an old one to a frontage road bridge " is to simply add Frontage Roads from Texas to The Red River to Oklahoma. And it would also be very useful for Ardmore, which is not that much different from Decatur. Ardmore in this case has insufficient tight clover ramps that makes it better to drive in the inside lanes in an attempt to avoid the traffic entering and exiting.

If I remember correctly, the only " Flat " areas in Oklahoma is in The Panhandle, and that was many years ago thus I am probably remembering it wrong. Much of Oklahoma has very small mountains, some of which have Beautiful Wind Turbines.

If I'm not mistaken they are going to restore the old US77 connection across the river as the southbound bridge was originally US77 before they built out I35 at the river. The service road will link up to serve Thackerville. Not really any point on having dual service roads linking to exit 1 for the Casino.

Sort of. The original I35 bridges were built in the early 60's. You are right that they used the US77 bridge for the southbound lanes but that bridge was replaced back in the 80s, then again not too long ago.

They need a 3rd bridge to act as a relief route when there is an accident at or near the existing bridges.

Looking at the service road underpass at the state line on the texas side. They redecked the bridge and widened it to allow for a shoulder. The original  bridge piers are still there just with an extension and metal underdecking supports.

[rte66man]

Noticed that I-35 in Oklahoma has a wide median, mostly 90' or more, from south of Purcell to Marietta near the Texas border.  But more interesting, all but 1 of the curves (at the sb foot of the climb over the Arbuckle 'mountains') are designed with a very gentle standard curve, about a 2 mile radius.  A radius that happens to be wide enough to support 150 mph for passenger trains.  The south ends lines up well with for a new track coming off the freeway southbound to join the BNSF line to cross into Texas.  Similarly for the north end for a new track to cut over to the BNSF south of Purcell to then follow into the OKC metro.

Is that just a coincidence?  I found some examples elsewhere in OK, but plenty of exceptions, and a quick search didn't find similarly large curves in Texas.  I can think of plenty of other reasons for wide medians and gentle curves, but a little surprised at the standardization on the particular 76 mile stretch.

The biggest issue with this is the Arbuckle mountains. They are potentially going to have do work cutting out rock or stabilizing the cut throughs just to 3 lane the interstate to combat congestion from the traffic going from Dallas to Oklahoma City. The cost for a tunnel for rail in the mountains would be cost prohibitive.

It's already 3 lanes SB because of the climbing lane. There is more than enough room to add the 3rd NB lane in the median.

[armadillo speedbump]

Hmmm, I wasn't making a prediction of HSR or assessing feasibility, just asking about the original intent of the freeway designers.  So thanks to those who actually answered that question.

To clear up several misconceptions:

Yes, HSR in the median is technically feasible, even over the Arbuckle ridge.  HSR can handle 4% grades and the crossing would likely not require more than 3%.  These are lightweight passenger trains, even heavy, heavy freight trains can handle 2% and even up to near 3%.  Tunnel not required.  It's not a matter of technical limitations, but financial ones.  Cost effectiveness for population/distance/other factors.

Yes HSR can go downtown to downtown.  The claim that CA HSR won't is false.  Both ends will use the sensible approach of tying into existing commuter rail tracks, from San Jose to San Francisco and Burbank to LA to Anaheim, with shared rail ROW on separate tracks Gilroy-San Jose.

Yes, HSR can use freeway medians when appropriate, and not only on pure straight stretches.  Brightline Orlando to Tampa will use the interstate median most of the way, designed for 150 mph.  The state just executed the next step in provisioning the median to Brightline.  Perhaps our board Expert On Everything should call and let them know that they don't know what they are doing (despite Brightline already building and now operating a higher speed rail line up to 125 mph).  Similar for Brightline West, which will be built mostly in the median of I-15.   Curvature matters, but trains do have brakes and acceleration.  Case by case.  The typical Euro approach is conventional  tracks and speeds in/out of city centers, sometimes in choke points, and highest speeds on rural sections.  Sometimes expensive urban tunneling or elevated tracks where necessary.  Sometimes those are later upgrades, often decades later.

A station for the current once per day each way OKC-Fort Worth Amtrak train to serve a nearby rural OK casino is unlikely to happen, and probably shouldn't.  Once per day, frequently late (to very late), slow, and relatively short distances.  Too much hassle and uncertainty compared to driving.  A few drunks might take it to detox on the way home, but it is unlikely to make any financial sense for the casino.  For most of DFW the Ft. Worth station is in the wrong direction and the only other alternative station is Gainesville.  If you drive to board at Gainesville you've already driven most of the way to the casino.  That might be different if it were a corridor with at least a half dozen trains a day each way and more DFW area stations.  But that's not happening any time soon, for many reasons.

For the usual political hot takes of "Oklahoma would never build HSR because they vote the wrong way"...the state authorized and paid for a high speed rail study between OKC and Tulsa.  2 decades ago. 

https://www.odot.org/recovery/hs_rail/fra-final-app/prelim/cost-study.pdf

It studied using the tollway median or using the existing rail line.  The tollway median was fastest but very expensive, the existing railroad too curvy and thus when straightened resulted in many takings of land and also being too expensive.  As a result the 2002 report was shelved by both an R governor and a D-D legislature.

More passenger rail studies under a D-governor and R-R legislature in 2009, Tulsa-OKC-Texas:

https://www.odot.org/recovery/hs_rail/final-fra.htm 

Under their current all R makeup they have continued to look at lower cost rail options like extending the Fort Worth-OKC Amtrak to Kansas (to connect east to Chicago and west to California).  That project is a dog (wee hours transfer required to trains that can often run many hours late) but it and other rail projects have bipartisan interest.  It all comes back to there are few circumstances where passenger rail has the demand, location, urban density, and/or enough transit connections to be feasible.  I'm sorry that unicorns don't exist, but they don't.  We mostly don't have European or Asian density and development patterns.  Maybe someday in some places, and a few places get close now.

And while Big Red Motors may have illegally 'subsidized' OU football, "Big Auto Dealers" didn't stop the studies.  LOL at such Roger Rabbit conspiracy nonsense.   

Same for Texas.  The R controlled legislature called for studies of various corridors over the years.  The shot down Trans-Texas Corridor was designed to include HSR set asides in the triangle.  Here's the study from 2016 for Oklahoma-DFW-Austin-SA-Laredo/Corpus/McAllen:

https://railroads.dot.gov/environment/environmental-reviews/texas-oklahoma-passenger-rail-study-corridor-south-texas-oklahoma

One of the potential fatal flaws of the Texas Central proposal for Dallas-Houston is the use of Japanese rolling stock that is not allowed to use the same tracks as conventional railroad equipment in the US.  Both a matter of crash safety standards and possibly width issues (though that is more a station platform issue).  The proposal was funded by the Japanese, possibly as a loss leader to get the foot in the door and monopolize a future Texas Triangle system.  So agreeing to a different, compatible trainset is about the last thing they'd agree to do (unless they can modify their equipment sufficiently).  Unfortunately for them that also greatly increases the cost of reaching downtown Dallas and west loop 610 in Houston.  The miles of elevated track above the existing freight tracks piles up costs, quick, probably overwhelming their wise decision to use electric utility corridors for most of the intercity portion.  I'll be shocked if it ever gets built in its current design.

Doesn't help that the geniuses on the Dallas city council, after the project had already almost folded last year from likely funding issues, decided that the line should be underground for the last bit into downtown Dallas.  The most expensive build option of all. 

[Plutonic Panda]

Jesus Christ dude you're talking out of your ass. Have you ever ridden the thruway bus from OKC to Newton? The Heartland Flyer? Do you live in Oklahoma and understand the mentality of the leaders in the state?

Because I can honestly say yes to all of the above. The Heartland Flyer always had decent ridership. It's rarely packed but always has several dozen people I've ridden it. Same with connecting to SW Chief via the thruway bus and waiting in Newton.

Regarding an OKC to Tulsa connection studies mean nothing. They're often the result of political pandering or a cute little look into what could be but that doesn't mean there's any real push to get it done anytime soon. ODOT also built the I-244 bridge with HSR tracks to be built on it in the future. That also means nothing.

I-35 in southern Oklahoma wasn't built to have HSR tracks and it isn't happening anytime soon and frankly I'd be surprised if it ever does. We'll probably be traveling through wormholes before HSR is built here.

[armadillo speedbump]

Jesus Christ dude you're talking out of your ass.

A native Texan, I've worked for 2 different Class I railroads, going back to 1998, and participated in some (minor) passenger rail research projects.  Along with non-rail projects.  So yeah, good point, what would I possibly know about railroads, the transportation funding processes, or politics?

Sorry for bursting any bubbles. 

[Plutonic Panda]

Jesus Christ dude you're talking out of your ass.

A native Texan, I've worked for 2 different Class I railroads, going back to 1998, and participated in some (minor) passenger rail research projects.  Along with non-rail projects.  So yeah, good point, what would I possibly know about railroads, the transportation funding processes, or politics?

Sorry for bursting any bubbles.

I have no clue what any of that has to do with your knowledge of Oklahoma and its relationship with high-speed rail currently. But really I'm trying to figure out what your relevant knowledge of the current situation in the state actually is. The answer appears to be not much since you're asking questions on this thread and you're making statements that just aren't very true like your assumption on the usage of its current passenger rails.

[Scott5114]

Oklahoma in 2024 is a much different place than it was in 2004. What the Legislature did when Keating or Henry were governor isn't really relevant to the politics in the modern day.

[I-35]

Didn't they study a stop at WinStar not that long ago?

How would they do it though? The tracks are on the west side of US77 at exit 1. Would it be cost effective to cut through part of Thackerville with a spur that crosses the interstate to serve Winstar? Or just bus Casino patrons from a stop in Thackerville to the Casino via the exit 1 underpass?

I assume Winstar would just run a shuttle or two over for scheduled stops, and it would be done via the county road at MM3 that is essentially the 'front' of the casino now.  Don't ever expect casino patrons to walk anywhere until they are inside the gaming area.

[Scott5114]

Didn't they study a stop at WinStar not that long ago?

How would they do it though? The tracks are on the west side of US77 at exit 1. Would it be cost effective to cut through part of Thackerville with a spur that crosses the interstate to serve Winstar? Or just bus Casino patrons from a stop in Thackerville to the Casino via the exit 1 underpass?

I assume Winstar would just run a shuttle or two over for scheduled stops, and it would be done via the county road at MM3 that is essentially the 'front' of the casino now.  Don't ever expect casino patrons to walk anywhere until they are inside the gaming area.

Even then, your mileage may vary. I had a patron that got turned around and needed help finding the exit. As I brought him there he became very angry at how long of a walk it was to the exit. The exit that he had walked that far from in the first place...