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Regional Boards => Northeast => Topic started by: The Ghostbuster on May 25, 2016, 03:37:19 PM

Title: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 25, 2016, 03:37:19 PM
Has anyone got any updates on the proposed reconstruction of Interstate 81 in Syracuse? It seems like the project has gone dormant, as I haven't found out anything that isn't already a few years old.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on May 25, 2016, 03:59:30 PM
There was a public forum earlier this month advising they'll still assessing the options. Commissioner Matt Driscoll said this will be the largest project in the history of NYSDOT. I am dubious of that claim.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on June 08, 2016, 12:06:35 PM
Yep.  Still being studied out and the tunnel proponents aren't helping things any.

(personal opinion expressed)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: goldfishcrackers4 on June 14, 2016, 10:44:34 AM
I am concerned about this project because of some of the language that has been used by the state and local governments when discussing it.  The "boulevard" and "community grid" have a level of touchy-feelyness that I don't feel would exist if the department were leaning toward replacing the viaduct. Just my opinion, but it seems like an awful lot of effort is going into discussion and visualizations for potential hipster gentrification of where 81 currently stands.

Also of concern to me is the creation of I-781 in the North Country. I don't know enough about it, but it seems like it is leaving potential for a 581 and 681 in Syracuse if the viaduct is eliminated.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: goldfishcrackers4 on June 14, 2016, 10:48:27 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 08, 2016, 12:06:35 PM
Yep.  Still being studied out and the tunnel proponents aren't helping things any.

(personal opinion expressed)

An awful lot of effort is going into entertaining a small group of people.  The tunnel is one piece. Another is the proposals of those interested in the boulevard in rerouting 81 slightly to the west. Destroy far more and a far greater cost so college students don't have to walk under a bridge. Some day I'll share how I really feel.  :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on June 14, 2016, 11:24:09 AM
I was under the impression that options rerouting 81 to the west (like using West St or something similar) had been ruled out a long time ago.  The ongoing study documentation certainly pointed to that awhile back.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on June 14, 2016, 03:31:26 PM
Quote from: jtsteach on June 14, 2016, 10:44:34 AM
I am concerned about this project because of some of the language that has been used by the state and local governments when discussing it.  The "boulevard" and "community grid" have a level of touchy-feelyness that I don't feel would exist if the department were leaning toward replacing the viaduct. Just my opinion, but it seems like an awful lot of effort is going into discussion and visualizations for potential hipster gentrification of where 81 currently stands.

Also of concern to me is the creation of I-781 in the North Country. I don't know enough about it, but it seems like it is leaving potential for a 581 and 681 in Syracuse if the viaduct is eliminated.

I firmly believe that I-781 was chosen for the North Country because it's in NYSDOT Region 7, much like NY 840 connects Route 8 to CR 40 or NY 747 leads to an airport. I-781 was originally to be numbered NY 781.

NYSDOT can be creative with numbers once in a great while. :)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on June 14, 2016, 05:05:11 PM
Quote from: upstatenyroads on June 14, 2016, 03:31:26 PM
Quote from: jtsteach on June 14, 2016, 10:44:34 AM
I am concerned about this project because of some of the language that has been used by the state and local governments when discussing it.  The "boulevard" and "community grid" have a level of touchy-feelyness that I don't feel would exist if the department were leaning toward replacing the viaduct. Just my opinion, but it seems like an awful lot of effort is going into discussion and visualizations for potential hipster gentrification of where 81 currently stands.

Also of concern to me is the creation of I-781 in the North Country. I don't know enough about it, but it seems like it is leaving potential for a 581 and 681 in Syracuse if the viaduct is eliminated.

I firmly believe that I-781 was chosen for the North Country because it's in NYSDOT Region 7, much like NY 840 connects Route 8 to CR 40 or NY 747 leads to an airport. I-781 was originally to be numbered NY 781.

NYSDOT can be creative with numbers once in a great while. :)

It is also worth noting that, while not in current use, NY 181 and NY 381 are former designations. 181 was in Jefferson County not far from current I-781, while 381 was in Rensselaer County.

Most of the designations between 500-899 are either SR extensions of Interstates or a number containing the route(s) it bypasses, provides an alternate for, or connects. These combinations are:

-NY 531 (freeway bypass of NY 31)
-NY 598 (connects NY 5 and NY 298)
-NY 631 (alternate of NY 31)
-NY 695 (connects I-690 and NY 5)
-NY 812 (spur of NY 12)
-NY 840 (connects NY 8 with Oneida CR 40)

Two additional ones that are proposed are NY 546 (connects NY 5 and NY 146) and NY 646 (connects NY 146 and NY 156).

Of the others, you have NY 747 (obvious reference to the airport), NY 635, NY 825 (no idea where those come from) and NY/I-781 (possibly due to location). It's also very possible that I-781 was chosen to avoid confusion with I-181 in Tennessee and I-381/581 in Virginia.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on June 14, 2016, 05:25:00 PM
Although I have never been to Syracuse, here's what I think should be done. Either upgrade the existing viaduct to modern design standards, or build the tunnel. The boulevard proposal should be done away with (too much congestion).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on June 14, 2016, 05:37:34 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 14, 2016, 05:25:00 PM
Although I have never been to Syracuse, here's what I think should be done. Either upgrade the existing viaduct to modern design standards, or build the tunnel. The boulevard proposal should be done away with (too much congestion).
Problem in that there is a big enough "urbanist" movement which doesn't want highway, in any shape or form, in tunnel, overhead, and in no other configuration, within the city. They are vocal enough to be heard, and they don't care about commute screw-up.
If boulevard option prevails, would be quite interesting to see what happens with the city -  commuters switching to buses, or business follow the road. Probably both to some extent...
There is actually similar situation 100 miles east in Albany, where 787 elevated portion is similar design and similar age to I-81 in Syracuse. So Syracuse can become a precedent for Albany...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on June 14, 2016, 05:46:27 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 14, 2016, 05:37:34 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 14, 2016, 05:25:00 PM
Although I have never been to Syracuse, here's what I think should be done. Either upgrade the existing viaduct to modern design standards, or build the tunnel. The boulevard proposal should be done away with (too much congestion).
Problem in that there is a big enough "urbanist" movement which doesn't want highway, in any shape or form, in tunnel, overhead, and in no other configuration, within the city. They are vocal enough to be heard, and they don't care about commute screw-up.
If boulevard option prevails, would be quite interesting to see what happens with the city -  commuters switching to buses, or business follow the road. Probably both to some extent...
There is actually similar situation 100 miles east in Albany, where 787 elevated portion is similar design and similar age to I-81 in Syracuse. So Syracuse can become a precedent for Albany...

Except that the barrier in Albany is also the very active rail line which runs in the median of I-787. Additionally, I-787 is nearing the end of a major rehab. Everything south of and including the I-90 interchange has been redone over the past few years. The bridges were redecked and everything else was resurfaced. Get rid of I-787 and the elevated rail line is still there.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on June 14, 2016, 05:57:44 PM
Quote from: cl94 on June 14, 2016, 05:46:27 PM
Except that the barrier in Albany is also the very active rail line which runs in the median of I-787. Additionally, I-787 is nearing the end of a major rehab. Everything south of and including the I-90 interchange has been redone over the past few years. The bridges were redecked and everything else was resurfaced. Get rid of I-787 and the elevated rail line is still there.
I had an impression that rail line is not elevated  except for Broadway bridge (that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a "barrier", though). It ends 
Interchange, as far as I understood, got piers replaced as well... making it effectively a brand new structure (correct me if I am wrong?...)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on June 14, 2016, 06:07:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 14, 2016, 05:57:44 PM
Quote from: cl94 on June 14, 2016, 05:46:27 PM
Except that the barrier in Albany is also the very active rail line which runs in the median of I-787. Additionally, I-787 is nearing the end of a major rehab. Everything south of and including the I-90 interchange has been redone over the past few years. The bridges were redecked and everything else was resurfaced. Get rid of I-787 and the elevated rail line is still there.
I had an impression that rail line is not elevated  except for Broadway bridge (that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a "barrier", though). It ends 
Interchange, as far as I understood, got piers replaced as well... making it effectively a brand new structure (correct me if I am wrong?...)

The entire thing is on an embankment from Rensselaer St to Division St. Within the circle stack, I-787 is below track level but at ground level, giving the impression of a sunken highway. North of there, a pedestrian bridge crosses everything. The barrier existed long before I-787 was built, so removing it won't do much.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on June 14, 2016, 06:20:39 PM
Quote from: cl94 on June 14, 2016, 06:07:19 PM
The entire thing is on an embankment from Rensselaer St to Division St. Within the circle stack, I-787 is below track level but at ground level, giving the impression of a sunken highway. North of there, a pedestrian bridge crosses everything. The barrier existed long before I-787 was built, so removing it won't do much.
If you ask me, removing all those commonly hated things -  787 along with rail line, plaza, and whatever else they want to remove, won't do much good to city of A. anyway. And beware of what you ask for - you may get it...
But that is a bit off-topic in  I-81 discussion.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on June 14, 2016, 07:08:39 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 14, 2016, 05:37:34 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 14, 2016, 05:25:00 PM
Although I have never been to Syracuse, here's what I think should be done. Either upgrade the existing viaduct to modern design standards, or build the tunnel. The boulevard proposal should be done away with (too much congestion).
Problem in that there is a big enough "urbanist" movement which doesn't want highway, in any shape or form, in tunnel, overhead, and in no other configuration, within the city. They are vocal enough to be heard, and they don't care about commute screw-up.
If boulevard option prevails, would be quite interesting to see what happens with the city -  commuters switching to buses, or business follow the road. Probably both to some extent...
There is actually similar situation 100 miles east in Albany, where 787 elevated portion is similar design and similar age to I-81 in Syracuse. So Syracuse can become a precedent for Albany...

I sent an email to Region 3 asking what their intentions are as far as exit numbering and milepost location if they decide to relocate I-81 to other routes and go with the boulevard option. I strongly pointed out that leaving everything as is will create even more confusion for motorists and that they should budget in the costs for a complete renumbering of the interchanges along I-81 in its entirety in New York State. I have not yet received a response.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on June 14, 2016, 08:04:04 PM
Main Office will probably make the call.  At the very least, Region 7 will also be affected, and I don't think the regions have the authority to change an existing road from sequential to mile-based numbers anyways.  I think I heard from someone that, were it up to the Regions, Upstate NY (minus the Thruway) would have switched to mile-based exit numbers years if not decades ago.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on June 15, 2016, 01:38:14 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 14, 2016, 08:04:04 PM
Main Office will probably make the call.  At the very least, Region 7 will also be affected, and I don't think the regions have the authority to change an existing road from sequential to mile-based numbers anyways.  I think I heard from someone that, were it up to the Regions, Upstate NY (minus the Thruway) would have switched to mile-based exit numbers years if not decades ago.

I've heard similar things from some of the upstate regions over the years, it's concerns about the five boroughs holding back all of the exit numbering throughout the state.  For the life of me I'll never understand why they can't separate the exit numbering scheme for New York City from the rest of the state.

There was a memo back with the adoption of the 2009 MUTCD in New York which stated that regions were not to act autonomously when it came to interchange numbering.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on June 15, 2016, 02:16:53 PM
Quote from: upstatenyroads on June 15, 2016, 01:38:14 PM
There was a memo back with the adoption of the 2009 MUTCD in New York which stated that regions were not to act autonomously when it came to interchange numbering.
Would be very cool if half of I-88 got mileage-based numbers and other half kept sequential scheme...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on June 15, 2016, 06:54:46 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 15, 2016, 02:16:53 PM
Quote from: upstatenyroads on June 15, 2016, 01:38:14 PM
There was a memo back with the adoption of the 2009 MUTCD in New York which stated that regions were not to act autonomously when it came to interchange numbering.
Would be very cool if half of I-88 got mileage-based numbers and other half kept sequential scheme...

Almost all of it is in R9. 2 exits are in Schenectady County. R1 was one of the first to start going distance-based.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on June 15, 2016, 07:18:42 PM
I suspect it's a case of "we've always done it this way" (which is becoming more and more prevalent in NYSDOT as time goes on).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on June 15, 2016, 10:03:49 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 15, 2016, 02:16:53 PM
Quote from: upstatenyroads on June 15, 2016, 01:38:14 PM
There was a memo back with the adoption of the 2009 MUTCD in New York which stated that regions were not to act autonomously when it came to interchange numbering.
Would be very cool if half of I-88 got mileage-based numbers and other half kept sequential scheme...

NYSDOT held off numbering the interchanges on I-88 for a very long while because they didn't make final decision to stay sequential until later in the game. The NYSMUTCD in the 1970s talked about distance based numbers for all new freeways but it was ramped back to sequential later on. That's why many of the logo service signs say "NEXT RIGHT" instead of the interchange number. Before the latest round of sign replacements, the exit numbers were added after the signs were installed. The signs had blank exit tabs for a long time.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: mariethefoxy on June 15, 2016, 11:05:07 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 14, 2016, 08:04:04 PM
Main Office will probably make the call.  At the very least, Region 7 will also be affected, and I don't think the regions have the authority to change an existing road from sequential to mile-based numbers anyways.  I think I heard from someone that, were it up to the Regions, Upstate NY (minus the Thruway) would have switched to mile-based exit numbers years if not decades ago.

What about Long Island? seems like down here is going to be the last part of the state to switch to mileage exits. We still dont have proper mile markers like the rest of the state.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on June 15, 2016, 11:09:20 PM
Quote from: mariethefoxy on June 15, 2016, 11:05:07 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 14, 2016, 08:04:04 PM
Main Office will probably make the call.  At the very least, Region 7 will also be affected, and I don't think the regions have the authority to change an existing road from sequential to mile-based numbers anyways.  I think I heard from someone that, were it up to the Regions, Upstate NY (minus the Thruway) would have switched to mile-based exit numbers years if not decades ago.

What about Long Island? seems like down here is going to be the last part of the state to switch to mileage exits. We still dont have proper mile markers like the rest of the state.

Long Island is included. Regions 8, 10 and 11 are holding everything back. 1-7 and 9 would have changed long ago if it wasn't for those three.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on June 16, 2016, 12:08:15 PM
Quote from: cl94 on June 15, 2016, 11:09:20 PM
Quote from: mariethefoxy on June 15, 2016, 11:05:07 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 14, 2016, 08:04:04 PM
Main Office will probably make the call.  At the very least, Region 7 will also be affected, and I don't think the regions have the authority to change an existing road from sequential to mile-based numbers anyways.  I think I heard from someone that, were it up to the Regions, Upstate NY (minus the Thruway) would have switched to mile-based exit numbers years if not decades ago.

What about Long Island? seems like down here is going to be the last part of the state to switch to mileage exits. We still dont have proper mile markers like the rest of the state.

Long Island is included. Regions 8, 10 and 11 are holding everything back. 1-7 and 9 would have changed long ago if it wasn't for those three.

I really don't know if this is true or not.  Discussions here I've been involved in -- granted, in years past -- encountered nearly monolithic opposition to mileage-based exit numbers.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on June 16, 2016, 12:55:47 PM
Would those discussions have been with managers or with the actual sign designers?  In my experience, managers are opposed to just about anything that is new/different or involves spending money.  The mentality is just to maintain the system and our processes as they were 30 years ago when the vast majority of current employees were hired.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on June 16, 2016, 01:09:30 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 16, 2016, 12:55:47 PM
Would those discussions have been with managers or with the actual sign designers?  In my experience, managers are opposed to just about anything that is new/different or involves spending money.  The mentality is just to maintain the system and our processes as they were 30 years ago when the vast majority of current employees were hired.

MO Office Directors.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 16, 2016, 01:25:04 PM
Given Cuomo's recent comments, I think it's safe to say that a rebuilt viaduct isn't happening for I-81.
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2016/08/cuomo_i-81_in_syracuse_a_classic_planning_blunder_1.html
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on August 16, 2016, 05:22:15 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 16, 2016, 01:25:04 PM
Given Cuomo's recent comments, I think it's safe to say that a rebuilt viaduct isn't happening for I-81.
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2016/08/cuomo_i-81_in_syracuse_a_classic_planning_blunder_1.html

While I don't think ripping down the viaduct is going to be the saving grace that politicians claim it's going to be, on the bright side, all new mile-based interchange numbers for I-81 if it gets rerouted over I-481 and I-690!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on August 16, 2016, 06:10:31 PM
I think they have procrastinated long enough. Choose an option and build it already!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on August 16, 2016, 07:31:41 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 16, 2016, 01:25:04 PM
Given Cuomo's recent comments, I think it's safe to say that a rebuilt viaduct isn't happening for I-81.
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2016/08/cuomo_i-81_in_syracuse_a_classic_planning_blunder_1.html (http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2016/08/cuomo_i-81_in_syracuse_a_classic_planning_blunder_1.html)
I discount heavily ideas proffered without solutions or assessments.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Buffaboy on August 17, 2016, 02:04:58 AM
Although it was partly built over the old Chenango Canal, one could say the Arterial in Utica is a blunder too.

But they're rebuilding it.

Also, I find it amazing that we talk more about tearing down roads/highways/bridges in NY than rebuilding/repairing/building new ones.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 17, 2016, 06:48:32 AM
Quote from: Buffaboy on August 17, 2016, 02:04:58 AM
Although it was partly built over the old Chenango Canal, one could say the Arterial in Utica is a blunder too.

But they're rebuilding it.

Also, I find it amazing that we talk more about tearing down roads/highways/bridges in NY than rebuilding/repairing/building new ones.
81 has no simple repair or rebuilt option. 690 is a slalom as well, I enjoyed that in a dark rainy weather yesterday.
And one thing is correct: it is great to discuss all the options, but something has to be done eventually.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on August 17, 2016, 08:28:53 AM
Quote from: Buffaboy on August 17, 2016, 02:04:58 AM
Although it was partly built over the old Chenango Canal, one could say the Arterial in Utica is a blunder too.

But they're rebuilding it.

Also, I find it amazing that we talk more about tearing down roads/highways/bridges in NY than rebuilding/repairing/building new ones.

Well, at least they're rebuilding half of it.  While the Arterial project was originally suppose to remove all five traffic signals, the project was scaled back at the last minute to leave the signals at Noyes and Oswego. Discussions with NYSDOT indicate that they have no plans to remove the other two lights at this time.

Whatever they decide to do with I-81 through Syracuse (personally I'm a fan of rebuilding the viaduct), I just hope they do it all the way.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on August 17, 2016, 03:51:46 PM
Quote from: upstatenyroads on August 17, 2016, 08:28:53 AM
Quote from: Buffaboy on August 17, 2016, 02:04:58 AM
Although it was partly built over the old Chenango Canal, one could say the Arterial in Utica is a blunder too.

But they're rebuilding it.

Also, I find it amazing that we talk more about tearing down roads/highways/bridges in NY than rebuilding/repairing/building new ones.

Well, at least they're rebuilding half of it.  While the Arterial project was originally suppose to remove all five traffic signals, the project was scaled back at the last minute to leave the signals at Noyes and Oswego. Discussions with NYSDOT indicate that they have no plans to remove the other two lights at this time.

Whatever they decide to do with I-81 through Syracuse (personally I'm a fan of rebuilding the viaduct), I just hope they do it all the way.

If it gets fully rebuilt, they'd need to widen it. Northbound has a bad weave and SB I-81 narrows to a single lane.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on August 17, 2016, 04:01:40 PM
Have you not read or glanced through the studies, cl94?  Widening to add shoulders, bring to more modern standards, and eliminate the southbound lane drop is already part of that alternative.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on August 18, 2016, 03:31:45 PM
If I had to choose an option, I'd have them rebuild the existing viaduct. A tunnel is too expensive, and a boulevard is pure insanity. In addition, I would do everything I could to make the viaduct less of a barrier, and make non-car improvements as well.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 19, 2016, 02:16:48 PM
I half-wonder if they'll tear down the viaduct only to start a new project to rebuild a through north-south freeway a few years later.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 19, 2016, 02:40:38 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 19, 2016, 02:16:48 PM
I half-wonder if they'll tear down the viaduct only to start a new project to rebuild a through north-south freeway a few years later.
How much is a "few years" for a big project in NY? I would expect 10 minimum, 25 realistic...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 19, 2016, 03:17:22 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 19, 2016, 02:40:38 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 19, 2016, 02:16:48 PM
I half-wonder if they'll tear down the viaduct only to start a new project to rebuild a through north-south freeway a few years later.
How much is a "few years" for a big project in NY? I would expect 10 minimum, 25 realistic...

Depends on the project and who wants it done.

(personal opinion expressed)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on August 19, 2016, 07:37:19 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 19, 2016, 03:17:22 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 19, 2016, 02:40:38 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 19, 2016, 02:16:48 PM
I half-wonder if they'll tear down the viaduct only to start a new project to rebuild a through north-south freeway a few years later.
How much is a "few years" for a big project in NY? I would expect 10 minimum, 25 realistic...

Depends on the project and who wants it done.

(personal opinion expressed)

NYSDOT commissioner Matt Driscoll has described the project as the biggest in NYSDOT history so who knows what they have planned.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 20, 2016, 12:34:21 AM
Quote from: upstatenyroads on August 19, 2016, 07:37:19 PM
NYSDOT commissioner Matt Driscoll has described the project as the biggest in NYSDOT history so who knows what they have planned.
Who is in charge of Tapan Zee - DOT or Thruway?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 20, 2016, 04:10:52 PM
The Tappan Zee is Thruway.  No parts of I-287 are maintained by NYSDOT.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 30, 2016, 12:31:43 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 20, 2016, 04:10:52 PM
The Tappan Zee is Thruway.  No parts of I-287 are maintained by NYSDOT.

I'd call Tappan Zee being done by committee.  NYSDOT has definitely pumped in some funding towards its construction.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on August 30, 2016, 06:05:47 PM
If they ever truly decide what they are going to do about this Interstate, somebody let us know. I'm not holding my breath for an answer anytime soon, though.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on August 30, 2016, 06:10:31 PM
We'll find out when Cuomo gets enough political donations. That's what likely caused the mess in Buffalo  :pan:
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on October 06, 2016, 08:31:32 PM
From Syracuse.com: First look at detailed maps of 2 proposals left for I-81 in downtown Syracuse
(http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2016/10/first_look_at_detailed_maps_for_2_proposals_for_i-81_in_downtown_syracuse.html)
The detailed maps and documents from NYSDOT are on this page (https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/getinvolved) in the yellow Open House section.  There's a lot to look at!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Buffaboy on October 07, 2016, 12:22:22 AM
If they had put I-81 through Utica back in the 50s, this could have been avoided!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: amroad17 on October 07, 2016, 05:23:21 AM
I am rather torn about this.  I do see the advantages in both proposals.

The whole section in Syracuse from near the Oakwood Cemetary/Dr. Martin Luther King Drive to just south of Destiny USA (I still say Carousel Center) does need upgrading and modernizing.  In the Viaduct Proposal, I-81 would have to be totally rebuilt from scratch at least from Oakwood Cemetary to I-690 with the section north of I-690 upgraded.  Doing this, we will see what increases in traffic patterns will occur along I-481 and I-690 east of downtown.  In this proposal, I-481 would not be upgraded.  Will it be able to handle the increased traffic when the project actually commences acting as the de facto route for I-81?

The finished product looks good in this proposal, but, other than the $1.4 billion, what other costs would there be?  Obviously, some historic buildings, businesses, and residences will have to be bought and razed for this to come to fruition.  Is this worth it?

On the other hand,  if this is the proposal chosen, the traffic through the downtown area will improve immensely on I-81.  There will be no extremely sharp turns, increased space on the viaduct, and a better interchange with I-690 (with all movements available).

In the Community Grid Proposal, I-81 would be routed around the city with improvements to the freeway.  The viaduct area would become a boulevard (Almond Street/Blvd.) with better access from SU to downtown.  The section from I-481 north of the city to I-690 would be renumbered (swap anyone?) and improved from Hiawatha Blvd. to I-690.  It looks pleasing to the eye in the drawings, but will it look like this?  Will this help a person coming to Syracuse from the south get to the downtown area without going "out of the way"?  Also, what will become of the stub of I-81 from I-481 north toward downtown?  Will this be abandoned/torn up, or will it be used to get to Almond and downtown?

A "pro" in this proposal is that through traffic would not even have to go into Syracuse.  Taking I-481 around the city is only four miles longer than taking I-81 through the city (15 miles vs. 11 miles).  Upgrading both the south and the north I-81/I-481 interchanges would have to be done to allow I-81 to be the "through" route instead of having a TOTSO effect.

The city streets, IMHO, in this proposal should become one-way streets instead of two-way.  I find this works well in many downtown areas.  Yes, one may have to go around a block to get to where they are going, but I consider it a minor inconvenience as I find traffic runs better as one-way grids than as two-way grids.

I have not really made a decision in my mind about this.  I realize I have no say in the matter nor will this adversely affect me as I live near 600 miles away from Syracuse.  However, Syracuse is my hometown and whatever happens there still interests me.  I just have a few opinions and a few questions about this subject.  My avatar and my personal text says it all about how interested I am on what proposal decision is made concerning I-81 in Syracuse.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on October 07, 2016, 07:54:19 AM
Quote from: Buffaboy on October 07, 2016, 12:22:22 AM
If they had put I-81 through Utica back in the 50s, this could have been avoided!

You wouldn't believe the number of older folks in Utica that I've talked to over the years that still bring up that I-81 wasn't built through Utica. Some blame most of Utica's woes on the fact that I-81 didn't come through Utica.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: AMLNet49 on October 07, 2016, 01:05:48 PM
Quote from: upstatenyroads on October 07, 2016, 07:54:19 AM
Quote from: Buffaboy on October 07, 2016, 12:22:22 AM
If they had put I-81 through Utica back in the 50s, this could have been avoided!

You wouldn't believe the number of older folks in Utica that I've talked to over the years that still bring up that I-81 wasn't built through Utica. Some blame most of Utica's woes on the fact that I-81 didn't come through Utica.

Doesn't help that the interstate they did get is one of the most shoehorned and worst signed 3DIs in existence.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on October 07, 2016, 05:36:25 PM
Quote from: upstatenyroads on October 07, 2016, 07:54:19 AM
Quote from: Buffaboy on October 07, 2016, 12:22:22 AM
If they had put I-81 through Utica back in the 50s, this could have been avoided!

You wouldn't believe the number of older folks in Utica that I've talked to over the years that still bring up that I-81 wasn't built through Utica. Some blame most of Utica's woes on the fact that I-81 didn't come through Utica.
IIRC, several years ago there was a proposal for an "Appalachian Thruway" that would have been an effective continuation of the PA I-99 concept; extending from Horseheads (along I-86) via Ithaca, Cortland, Utica, and Lowville (essentially a large reverse - "C") and merging with I-81 near Watertown.  Whether that was a latter-day attempt to compensate for the actual 1957 Syracuse I-81 alignment or just a '90's attempt to breathe life into the Utica commercial scene is a matter for speculation; I haven't hear a peep about any attempts to revive this plan for years. 

I agree both currently considered Syracuse I-81 options have their valid points; but whether the localized benefits (which include non-tangible perceptive values) to a surface-street replacement outweigh the combined loss of income derived from the users of the main north-south I-81 in-town arterial -- plus the cost of tearing down the existing facility, modifying the two current 81/481 interchanges, and expanding present I-481 to accommodate increased through traffic -- is difficult to calculate in concrete terms.  Often, to me, such actions seem like an exercise in form over function.  It looks like the decision regarding those relative benefits is now -- starkly -- in NYDOT's hands.  Whether Syracuse sets a precedent that is portable remains to be seen. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on October 07, 2016, 09:29:50 PM
On the bright side, I do believe that interchange numbering is in the plans for all of I-81, regardless of which plan NYSDOT decides to go with.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on October 07, 2016, 09:43:55 PM
Quote from: upstatenyroads on October 07, 2016, 07:54:19 AM
Quote from: Buffaboy on October 07, 2016, 12:22:22 AM
If they had put I-81 through Utica back in the 50s, this could have been avoided!

You wouldn't believe the number of older folks in Utica that I've talked to over the years that still bring up that I-81 wasn't built through Utica. Some blame most of Utica's woes on the fact that I-81 didn't come through Utica.
What would Syracuse have gotten out of the deal?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on October 07, 2016, 09:49:05 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 07, 2016, 09:43:55 PM
Quote from: upstatenyroads on October 07, 2016, 07:54:19 AM
Quote from: Buffaboy on October 07, 2016, 12:22:22 AM
If they had put I-81 through Utica back in the 50s, this could have been avoided!

You wouldn't believe the number of older folks in Utica that I've talked to over the years that still bring up that I-81 wasn't built through Utica. Some blame most of Utica's woes on the fact that I-81 didn't come through Utica.
What would Syracuse have gotten out of the deal?

Probably another x81. Heck, the NY 12 corridor north of Utica should be an Interstate even with I-81 on its current routing. Certainly gets enough traffic. A decent amount of it is already 4 lanes divided.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on October 08, 2016, 09:33:35 AM
Quote from: cl94 on October 07, 2016, 09:49:05 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 07, 2016, 09:43:55 PM
Quote from: upstatenyroads on October 07, 2016, 07:54:19 AM
Quote from: Buffaboy on October 07, 2016, 12:22:22 AM
If they had put I-81 through Utica back in the 50s, this could have been avoided!

You wouldn't believe the number of older folks in Utica that I've talked to over the years that still bring up that I-81 wasn't built through Utica. Some blame most of Utica's woes on the fact that I-81 didn't come through Utica.
What would Syracuse have gotten out of the deal?

Probably another x81. Heck, the NY 12 corridor north of Utica should be an Interstate even with I-81 on its current routing. Certainly gets enough traffic. A decent amount of it is already 4 lanes divided.

At the very least it should be posted at 65 MPH but that would kill the revenue generation.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Buffaboy on October 10, 2016, 03:15:02 PM
Quote from: upstatenyroads on October 07, 2016, 07:54:19 AM
Quote from: Buffaboy on October 07, 2016, 12:22:22 AM
If they had put I-81 through Utica back in the 50s, this could have been avoided!

You wouldn't believe the number of older folks in Utica that I've talked to over the years that still bring up that I-81 wasn't built through Utica. Some blame most of Utica's woes on the fact that I-81 didn't come through Utica.

Well that's interesting...hahahaha
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 10, 2016, 04:25:17 PM
I would choose the viaduct option. The boulevard option would likely be a traffic nightmare.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on November 16, 2016, 10:31:42 PM
From Syracuse.com: How would the I-81 replacement impact the eastern suburbs? (http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2016/11/how_would_the_i-81_replacement_affect_the_eastern_suburbs.html)

If NYSDOT picks the boulevard option, they will add an additional lane each way on I-481 between I-690 and the Thruway.  I wonder how much that will cost since they'd have to widen the bridges over the DeWitt Yard.

As an aside, I think it's kind of funny that the high school students mentioned in the article can't wrap their heads around this.  When I was in high school I could have, but then again, they probably haven't been roadgeeks all their life.

EDIT: After reading the comments, I found the PDF of the display board (https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/2016-11-11%20I-481%20Overview_r6lowres_0.pdf) mentioned in the article on the DOT website.  I find it interesting that there isn't a third southbound lane between the Thruway and Kirkville Road.  If you look closely, the plans only show two lanes northbound between I-690 and Kirkville Road.  Also, there are no additional lanes between the ramps for Kirkville Road.  Is that just another goof, or will there only be two lanes through the Kirkville Road interchange?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on November 17, 2016, 01:01:47 PM
Interesting.  Earlier reports from NYSDOT made it sound like I-481 would be widened both directions all the way from I-690 to I-90, and this shows a much more limited widening.  Not really sure what the reasoning behind it is.  IMO at the very least they should widen both directions between NY 5/NY 92 and NY 298, though I'd really like to see I-481 widened all the way to I-81, regardless of what happens to the viaduct.  Traffic is heavy enough that if you try to drive the speed limit, you'll always be frustrated by someone going slower in front of you, no matter which lane you're in.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 09, 2016, 04:51:31 PM
I just read the AARoads link to the story about people wanting to keep Interstate 81 on its present route: http://waer.org/post/majority-support-keeping-i-81s-current-route-new-poll-shows

What do the rest of you think about this story?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: PHLBOS on December 09, 2016, 05:43:01 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 09, 2016, 04:51:31 PM
I just read the AARoads link to the story about people wanting to keep Interstate 81 on its present route: http://waer.org/post/majority-support-keeping-i-81s-current-route-new-poll-shows

What do the rest of you think about this story?
It's a welcome change to hear from people actually supporting a highway.  Sounds like the so-called silent majority might be finally breaking their silence.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: amroad17 on December 09, 2016, 11:00:51 PM
If I-81 can be modernized and brought to "Interstate standards" in its current footpath, then go for it NYSDOT!!!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on December 10, 2016, 12:07:18 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on December 09, 2016, 11:00:51 PM
If I-81 can be modernized and brought to "Interstate standards" in its current footpath, then go for it NYSDOT!!!  :thumbsup:

Not going to happen.  Not sure where the needle sits in terms of either boulevarding it or just repairing the viaduct, but I don't think you're going to see the gazillions spent to bring it up to full Interstate standards.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on December 12, 2016, 08:32:38 PM
NewsChannel 9: Local lawmakers want tunnel option to be fully considered for I-81 (http://www.localsyr.com/news/local-lawmakers-want-tunnel-option-to-be-fully-considered-for-i-81/618409203)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on December 12, 2016, 10:17:39 PM
Unless those lawmakers are also suggesting a way to pay for a tunnel, they need to kill their rhetoric...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Buffaboy on December 12, 2016, 11:53:34 PM
I bet my student loans that doesn't happen.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on December 13, 2016, 08:47:06 AM
Nevermind that there were other reasons a tunnel wasn't forwarded...same as why the depressed roadway/"trench" didn't make it:  the ramp connections between 81 South and 690 would have severed several key east-west streets, including Erie Blvd and possibly Genessee St.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on December 13, 2016, 10:36:40 AM
The tunnel ain't happening.  NYSDOT may pay some lip service to it just to appease those that want it, but it just will never happen due to the ridiculous cost.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on December 13, 2016, 11:14:13 AM
I do think it's interesting that, generally speaking, the local pols want the thing to stay put in some fashion. The tunnel certainly won't happen. It won't. But it gives me hope that they'll do the viaduct option.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on December 13, 2016, 01:40:04 PM
Plus I remember reading that the tunnel had issues with the water table.  The DestiNY proposal was basically "don't have any connections with I-690", which obviously isn't going to happen.

Meanwhile, there's plenty of community opposition to building the missing movements between I-690 west and I-81 north, as well as the widening north of I-690.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: amroad17 on December 13, 2016, 06:51:29 PM
This has become an absolute mess.  Obviously, very few leaders thought "what do we need to do in 50 years when the viaduct needs to be replaced?"  Also, this is the product of wanting to build Interstate highways through downtown areas that was so prevalent in the 1960's.  Now the residents of Syracuse are going to pay for a solution that has been dragging on for at least five years.

With the terrain around Syracuse (mostly south), NYSDOT more than likely chose a path of least resistance.  I-81 couldn't be built around the city (Onondaga Lake, subdivisions, and hills to the west and hills just south of I-481 southeast) so it had to go through the city.  Unfortunately, with hindsight being 20/20, what was chosen was probably one of the worst choices to build a freeway.  This is one where once the decision was made, there wouldn't be an alternate place to build a new freeway if one was needed.  Right now, it is two choices, use I-481 around the city or have a more modern version of what there is now.

I thought of a "cap-and-cover" in which I-81 would be in a trench and the streets above it, however, the water tables would prevent this.  Syracuse was built amongst swampland and with nearby Onondaga Lake, there would be too much of an issue.  Switching I-81 to ground-level with local streets on overpasses would be waaaay too costly.

Asthetically, the Community Grid option would appease those who did not like the way I-81 "divided the city."  Functionally, would this work?  Would people living south of the city want to take I-81, I-481, and I-690 to their jobs downtown or north of downtown?  Would they be willing to use the "boulevard" to get to their jobs?  I know I wouldn't want to do this every day.

This has become a real serious issue for those in the Syracuse area.  A decision needs to be made as soon as possible.  Choose something NYSDOT!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 13, 2016, 07:21:39 PM
I hope Syracuse doesn't wait until the viaduct collapses before doing anything about Interstate 81 in the city.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on December 14, 2016, 07:46:52 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on December 13, 2016, 06:51:29 PM
This has become an absolute mess.  Obviously, very few leaders thought "what do we need to do in 50 years when the viaduct needs to be replaced?"  Also, this is the product of wanting to build Interstate highways through downtown areas that was so prevalent in the 1960's.  Now the residents of Syracuse are going to pay for a solution that has been dragging on for at least five years.

With the terrain around Syracuse (mostly south), NYSDOT more than likely chose a path of least resistance.  I-81 couldn't be built around the city (Onondaga Lake, subdivisions, and hills to the west and hills just south of I-481 southeast) so it had to go through the city.  Unfortunately, with hindsight being 20/20, what was chosen was probably one of the worst choices to build a freeway.  This is one where once the decision was made, there wouldn't be an alternate place to build a new freeway if one was needed.  Right now, it is two choices, use I-481 around the city or have a more modern version of what there is now.

I thought of a "cap-and-cover" in which I-81 would be in a trench and the streets above it, however, the water tables would prevent this.  Syracuse was built amongst swampland and with nearby Onondaga Lake, there would be too much of an issue.  Switching I-81 to ground-level with local streets on overpasses would be waaaay too costly.

Asthetically, the Community Grid option would appease those who did not like the way I-81 "divided the city."  Functionally, would this work?  Would people living south of the city want to take I-81, I-481, and I-690 to their jobs downtown or north of downtown?  Would they be willing to use the "boulevard" to get to their jobs?  I know I wouldn't want to do this every day.

This has become a real serious issue for those in the Syracuse area.  A decision needs to be made as soon as possible.  Choose something NYSDOT!

Pfft.  It's not NYSDOT's fault for not choosing an alternative.  It's the freakin' public hearing process and the galvanized factions that have supported the infeasible and ridiculous options that are dragging the thing out.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on December 14, 2016, 09:27:53 AM
Quote from: Rothman on December 14, 2016, 07:46:52 AM
Pfft.  It's not NYSDOT's fault for not choosing an alternative.  It's the freakin' public hearing process and the galvanized factions that have supported the infeasible and ridiculous options that are dragging the thing out.

This really looks to me as a choice between couple of bad alternatives, with each of them being clearly worse than all other options.
I, for one, wouldn't want to be the person to sign off one of them for construction...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on December 14, 2016, 09:36:28 AM
Quotewith each of them being clearly worse than all other options.

Why do you say this?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: PHLBOS on December 14, 2016, 09:39:33 AM
Quote from: froggie on December 13, 2016, 08:47:06 AM
Nevermind that there were other reasons a tunnel wasn't forwarded...same as why the depressed roadway/"trench" didn't make it:  the ramp connections between 81 South and 690 would have severed several key east-west streets, including Erie Blvd and possibly Genessee St.
Another often-overlooked disadvantage with the tunnel option (in general and not just the I-81 option in the Syracuse area) is that such, for safety reasons, imposes a hazmat vehicle restriction; which becomes an issue for local, O&D (origin/destination) transport.  To those drivers; replacing the viaduct (which they presently can use) with a tunnel is, in essence, taking away a viable option for them.  They would be forced off at the last exit ramp prior to the tunnel and would have to use more local, surface roads.

Samples of tunnel hazmat prohibition signs:

Along PA Turnpike:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Prohibitionboard.jpg/640px-Prohibitionboard.jpg)

Along I-95 in Baltimore, prior to the Fort McHenry Tunnel:
(https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/maryland095/i-095_nb_exit_051_03.jpg)

If this tunnel option were for a brand new highway (as opposed to a replacement), that's one thing; but since it's replacing an existing viaduct, that drawback needs to be discussed/addressed (if such hasn't already been done so).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on December 14, 2016, 10:11:55 AM
Quote from: PHLBOS on December 14, 2016, 09:39:33 AM
Another often-overlooked disadvantage with the tunnel option (in general and not just the I-81 option in the Syracuse area) is that such, for safety reasons, imposes a hazmat vehicle restriction; which becomes an issue for local, O&D (origin/destination) transport.  To those drivers; replacing the viaduct (which they presently can use) with a tunnel is, in essence, taking a way a viable option for them.  They would be forced off at the last exit ramp prior to the tunnel and would have to use more local, surface roads.

There are a few 3-digit interstate roads in the area going around the stretch in question, so the problem would not be as severe as it may sound.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on December 14, 2016, 10:21:16 AM
Quote from: froggie on December 14, 2016, 09:36:28 AM
Quotewith each of them being clearly worse than all other options.

Why do you say this?
Because there is no good option, all options on the table have show-stopper grade problems attached to them. It is either too costly, too disrupting to the city, too damaging to traffic flow, and maybe all of the above.
If I had to vote for one of the options, I would just stay at home.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: PHLBOS on December 14, 2016, 01:40:44 PM
Quote from: kalvado on December 14, 2016, 10:11:55 AM
Quote from: PHLBOS on December 14, 2016, 09:39:33 AM
Another often-overlooked disadvantage with the tunnel option (in general and not just the I-81 option in the Syracuse area) is that such, for safety reasons, imposes a hazmat vehicle restriction; which becomes an issue for local, O&D (origin/destination) transport.  To those drivers; replacing the viaduct (which they presently can use) with a tunnel is, in essence, taking a way a viable option for them.  They would be forced off at the last exit ramp prior to the tunnel and would have to use more local, surface roads.

There are a few 3-digit interstate roads in the area going around the stretch in question, so the problem would not be as severe as it may sound.
I will clarify; if a hazmat vehicle's origin or destination is, for example, near/at Syracuse University or Upstate Medical University; I-481 or 690 won't help if the vehicle is coming/going from the south (via I-81).  Such vehicles would have to use either US 11, another parallel street or whatever boulevard would be placed over a tunnel.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on December 14, 2016, 04:24:13 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on December 14, 2016, 01:40:44 PM
Quote from: kalvado on December 14, 2016, 10:11:55 AM
Quote from: PHLBOS on December 14, 2016, 09:39:33 AM
Another often-overlooked disadvantage with the tunnel option (in general and not just the I-81 option in the Syracuse area) is that such, for safety reasons, imposes a hazmat vehicle restriction; which becomes an issue for local, O&D (origin/destination) transport.  To those drivers; replacing the viaduct (which they presently can use) with a tunnel is, in essence, taking a way a viable option for them.  They would be forced off at the last exit ramp prior to the tunnel and would have to use more local, surface roads.

There are a few 3-digit interstate roads in the area going around the stretch in question, so the problem would not be as severe as it may sound.
I will clarify; if a hazmat vehicle's origin or destination is, for example, near/at Syracuse University or Upstate Medical University; I-481 or 690 won't help if the vehicle is coming/going from the south (via I-81).  Such vehicles would have to use either US 11, another parallel street or whatever boulevard would be placed over a tunnel.
Or loop around and come from the north.  Which may be not the nicest thing to do, but for me extra 10 minutes on interstate is a reasonable price to pay to avoid 5 minutes trip on side streets.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: amroad17 on December 15, 2016, 12:02:00 AM
Quote from: Rothman on December 14, 2016, 07:46:52 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on December 13, 2016, 06:51:29 PM
This has become an absolute mess.  Obviously, very few leaders thought "what do we need to do in 50 years when the viaduct needs to be replaced?"  Also, this is the product of wanting to build Interstate highways through downtown areas that was so prevalent in the 1960's.  Now the residents of Syracuse are going to pay for a solution that has been dragging on for at least five years.

With the terrain around Syracuse (mostly south), NYSDOT more than likely chose a path of least resistance.  I-81 couldn't be built around the city (Onondaga Lake, subdivisions, and hills to the west and hills just south of I-481 southeast) so it had to go through the city.  Unfortunately, with hindsight being 20/20, what was chosen was probably one of the worst choices to build a freeway.  This is one where once the decision was made, there wouldn't be an alternate place to build a new freeway if one was needed.  Right now, it is two choices, use I-481 around the city or have a more modern version of what there is now.

I thought of a "cap-and-cover" in which I-81 would be in a trench and the streets above it, however, the water tables would prevent this.  Syracuse was built amongst swampland and with nearby Onondaga Lake, there would be too much of an issue.  Switching I-81 to ground-level with local streets on overpasses would be waaaay too costly.

Asthetically, the Community Grid option would appease those who did not like the way I-81 "divided the city."  Functionally, would this work?  Would people living south of the city want to take I-81, I-481, and I-690 to their jobs downtown or north of downtown?  Would they be willing to use the "boulevard" to get to their jobs?  I know I wouldn't want to do this every day.

This has become a real serious issue for those in the Syracuse area.  A decision needs to be made as soon as possible.  Choose something NYSDOT!

Pfft.  It's not NYSDOT's fault for not choosing an alternative.  It's the freakin' public hearing process and the galvanized factions that have supported the infeasible and ridiculous options that are dragging the thing out.
All right, SOMEBODY make a decision and get on with it or we at AAROADS.com can make the decision for them!

Wouldn't that be nice?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on December 15, 2016, 07:32:18 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on December 15, 2016, 12:02:00 AM
All right, SOMEBODY make a decision and get on with it or we at AAROADS.com can make the decision for them!

Wouldn't that be nice?
Would be interesting if we can come to any conclusion over here. Is there a way to setup a poll within comments, or do something similar?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on December 15, 2016, 06:20:32 PM
Syracuse.com: DOT officials say tunnel feasibility study coming for I-81 in Syracuse
(http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2016/12/i-81_options.html)
Senator John DeFrancisco called a meeting with NYSDOT officials, and a study from NYSDOT "will be coming soon".
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on December 15, 2016, 08:20:09 PM
Nice to see that there's a city where people are actually opposed to getting rid of the thing entirely. It's not like most of these removal things actually work. Yeah, let's make it so no through traffic actually drives through Syracuse and patronizes the businesses.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on December 15, 2016, 08:21:15 PM
How many times is NYSDOT going to be forced to study this because some people won't take "it's not feasible or affordable" for an answer?  Makes me wonder if the viaduct will collapse while the tunnel is studied again and again.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on December 16, 2016, 09:04:01 AM
It should be noted that Senator John DeFrancisco represents a district that surrounds Syracuse (some serious gerrymandering there, BTW), but doesn't actually include south of I-690 where the viaduct is.

This has basically turned into a city vs. suburbs argument.  As a general rule, the city (and its residents) want the viaduct gone, but the suburbs don't.

Quote from: cl94It's not like most of these removal things actually work.

And your rationale behind this statement is...?

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on December 16, 2016, 09:09:45 AM
Quote from: Michael on December 15, 2016, 06:20:32 PM
Syracuse.com: DOT officials say tunnel feasibility study coming for I-81 in Syracuse
(http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2016/12/i-81_options.html)
Senator John DeFrancisco called a meeting with NYSDOT officials, and a study from NYSDOT "will be coming soon".

Talk about p***ing money down the drain.  What a freakin' waste.

(personal opinion expressed)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: mvak36 on December 16, 2016, 09:42:27 AM
I have no dog in this fight, but the sense I get from that article is that they're going to be routing 81 around the city. That tunnel is more than doubling the cost of the other 2 proposals, so I don't think it will get selected based on the state of transportation funding around the country.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on December 16, 2016, 10:16:46 AM
Quote from: mvak36 on December 16, 2016, 09:42:27 AM
I have no dog in this fight, but the sense I get from that article is that they're going to be routing 81 around the city. That tunnel is more than doubling the cost of the other 2 proposals, so I don't think it will get selected based on the state of transportation funding around the country.
If it only was that simple.
Through traffic is a relatively small portion of it, and I bet it can be rerouted on existing bypass with moderate disruption if all other traffic patterns are not changed. After all, there is not too much going on north of Syracuse. I-81 has 15-17k traffic counts over there, and I have hard time saying how many of those vehicles actually continue I-81 south, as opposed to going to/from Syracuse and I-90 Thruway. Military base Fort Drum is probably the biggest destination up there.
But interstate through city center inevitably becomes major commuter road - and it is those commuters who need a real replacement road, as well as traffic coming from the south to the city and back.   So bypass is pretty useless for them. And traffic from the south is traffic from NYC and Philadelphia, which is probably somewhat important for the city.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on December 16, 2016, 01:55:19 PM
I-81 through traffic isn't the issue. Not only is it minimal, I-481 doesn't add much time. The bigger one is traffic between the south and west. How would they get through? Most of them would take surface roads.

Quote from: froggie on December 16, 2016, 09:04:01 AM
And your rationale behind this statement is...?

I worked for the Buffalo MPO during the NY 198 crap. I performed the counts in that area myself both before and after the speed limit was lowered and changes were made.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: goldfishcrackers4 on December 16, 2016, 02:01:00 PM
If I'm not mistaken, this whole "boulevard" plan came about from some people at Syracuse University.  The former president of SU is the one who championed this and she is no longer there. The people who seem to think this "community grid" (so named because it sounds nice) is smart are urbanist hipsters who lack a basic understanding of what will happen without the viaduct. If you drove through the Utica area last week when the 5/8/12/840 interchange was closed due to the fuel spill, you got a small taste of what Syracuse will look like if 81 moves.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on December 16, 2016, 02:03:56 PM
Nobody drives through Utica.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on December 16, 2016, 03:35:20 PM
Quote from: cl94I-81 through traffic isn't the issue. Not only is it minimal, I-481 doesn't add much time. The bigger one is traffic between the south and west. How would they get through? Most of them would take surface roads.

Given experience elsewhere, there are a number of things that would happen.  Some, yes, would take surface roads.  Some would take 481 to 690 to avoid traffic signals.  Some would take the boulevard.  Some trips simply would go away.  I realize this last part seems unbelievable, but yes it does happen.

QuoteI worked for the Buffalo MPO during the NY 198 crap. I performed the counts in that area myself both before and after the speed limit was lowered and changes were made.

One could make a pretty strong argument that NY 198 was the exception to the rule, especially considering how it was handled.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: compdude787 on December 16, 2016, 04:12:47 PM
Quote from: goldfishcrackers4 on December 16, 2016, 02:01:00 PM
If I'm not mistaken, this whole "boulevard" plan came about from some people at Syracuse University.  The former president of SU is the one who championed this and she is no longer there. The people who seem to think this "community grid" (so named because it sounds nice) is smart are urbanist hipsters who lack a basic understanding of what will happen without the viaduct. If you drove through the Utica area last week when the 5/8/12/840 interchange was closed due to the fuel spill, you got a small taste of what Syracuse will look like if 81 moves.

Totally agree with this. I will never, ever, ever support getting rid of the freeway and replacing it with some stupid surface street. It's a shame that the water table makes it such that a tunnel wouldn't be possible.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on December 16, 2016, 04:14:01 PM
Quote from: cl94 on December 16, 2016, 01:55:19 PM
I-81 through traffic isn't the issue. Not only is it minimal, I-481 doesn't add much time. The bigger one is traffic between the south and west. How would they get through? Most of them would take surface roads.
If I remember correctly, signs on Thruway direct through traffic to either I-390 - I-86 or some roads near finger lakes. Until you originate in Weedsport (BTW, I never understood if that is a place of mowing competition or a barge port for marijuana shipments) there are options other than negotiating city center.
Local traffic from points west - the state fairgrounds and places like Crucible may suffer, though..
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on December 16, 2016, 04:25:44 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 16, 2016, 03:35:20 PM
Given experience elsewhere, there are a number of things that would happen.  Some, yes, would take surface roads.  Some would take 481 to 690 to avoid traffic signals.  Some would take the boulevard.  Some trips simply would go away.  I realize this last part seems unbelievable, but yes it does happen.
690 is 88k traffic on 3 lanes, 481 is 65k on 2 lanes. I doubt they would handle significant portion of diverted traffic.
I know 481 is up for some expansion, but I suspect traffic collapse would go first
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on December 16, 2016, 05:27:17 PM
The Thruway actually directs all traffic to Binghamton from the west to use 690 to 81. Trucks generally take 63-390-17, but most car drivers are stupid.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on December 16, 2016, 05:45:38 PM
Quote from: cl94 on December 16, 2016, 05:27:17 PM
The Thruway actually directs all traffic to Binghamton from the west to use 690 to 81. Trucks generally take 63-390-17, but most car drivers are stupid.

And there are signs for the reverse on I-81 NB down by Cortland, telling motorists to use 81 to 690 to the Thruway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Buffaboy on December 19, 2016, 12:22:52 AM
Quote from: PHLBOS on December 14, 2016, 09:39:33 AM
Quote from: froggie on December 13, 2016, 08:47:06 AM
Nevermind that there were other reasons a tunnel wasn't forwarded...same as why the depressed roadway/"trench" didn't make it:  the ramp connections between 81 South and 690 would have severed several key east-west streets, including Erie Blvd and possibly Genessee St.
Another often-overlooked disadvantage with the tunnel option (in general and not just the I-81 option in the Syracuse area) is that such, for safety reasons, imposes a hazmat vehicle restriction; which becomes an issue for local, O&D (origin/destination) transport.  To those drivers; replacing the viaduct (which they presently can use) with a tunnel is, in essence, taking a way a viable option for them.  They would be forced off at the last exit ramp prior to the tunnel and would have to use more local, surface roads.

Samples of tunnel hazmat prohibition signs:

Along PA Turnpike:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Prohibitionboard.jpg/640px-Prohibitionboard.jpg)

Along I-95 in Baltimore, prior to the Fort McHenry Tunnel:
(https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/maryland095/i-095_nb_exit_051_03.jpg)

If this tunnel option were for a brand new highway (as opposed to a replacement), that's one thing; but since it's replacing an existing viaduct, that drawback needs to be discussed/addressed (if such hasn't already been done so).

This is more of a problem that a lot of people may think. FedEx and UPS load hazmats on their trailers all the time.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Buffaboy on December 19, 2016, 12:26:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on December 16, 2016, 09:09:45 AM
Quote from: Michael on December 15, 2016, 06:20:32 PM
Syracuse.com: DOT officials say tunnel feasibility study coming for I-81 in Syracuse
(http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2016/12/i-81_options.html)
Senator John DeFrancisco called a meeting with NYSDOT officials, and a study from NYSDOT "will be coming soon".

Talk about p***ing money down the drain.  What a freakin' waste.

(personal opinion expressed)

Now that the "New NY Bridge (stupid name, what happens when the GI bridges need to be replaced) is wrapping up, this could be Cuomo's next pet project.

I bet tunnling the Skyway and part of NY-198 would cost less than this.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 19, 2016, 01:46:37 PM
They should rebuild the existing viaduct to modern design standards, and possibly add an additional lane in each direction. Enough said!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on December 19, 2016, 02:07:04 PM
^ Have you even read this thread?  Have you not noticed or seen the right-of-way issues that widening the viaduct (especially to add lanes) would entail?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on December 19, 2016, 02:11:38 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 19, 2016, 01:46:37 PM
They should rebuild the existing viaduct to modern design standards, and possibly add an additional lane in each direction. Enough said!

:ded:
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on December 19, 2016, 03:12:51 PM
Let's just go ahead and tear down the remainder of Syracuse's building stock just so we can add more freeway capacity that isn't needed!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on December 19, 2016, 07:00:17 PM
Syracuse.com: 3 tunnel options for replacing Syracuse's I-81 and why NYS rejected them (http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2016/12/what_were_the_3_tunnel_options_the_dot_rejected_for_replacing_syracuses_i-81.html)

This article goes into detail about how the tunnel options wouldn't work according to NYSDOT.  I wonder if using a TBM or tunnel jack for the shallow tunnel would address the issues with ground stability and road/railroad construction impacts.

I also got a kick out of one of the commenters calling the Community Grid option the Community Gridlock option.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 20, 2016, 04:56:39 PM
I've never been to Syracuse, so my recommendation was out of ignorance. It appears rebuilding the viaduct to modern design standards would have too many right-of-way impacts. Even so, I would think a tunnel would be too expensive, and a boulevard would be too congested.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on January 11, 2017, 01:36:15 PM
I've put together an I-81 boulevard concept that draws heavily from the Community Grid option but adds a few other elements to it.  Because of the fictional nature of some of those elements, I posted it in Fictional Highways (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19512).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 11, 2017, 03:14:43 PM
Tunnel's going to be studied again by some third party.  *sigh*
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on January 11, 2017, 04:34:35 PM
I saw that on Syracuse.com about an hour before your post, but didn't have time to post the link.  Governor Cuomo directed NYSDOT to do it this time.  I have a feeling that in the end, it will be a boulevard.  I wouldn't be surprised if this study is just for show.

Syracuse.com: After 4 years of study, Cuomo orders new study on I-81 project (http://www.syracuse.com/state/index.ssf/2017/01/syracuse_cuomo_state_of_the_state_i-81_cny.html)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on January 11, 2017, 04:51:36 PM
Quote from: Michael on January 11, 2017, 04:34:35 PM
I saw that on Syracuse.com about an hour before your post, but didn't have time to post the link.  Governor Cuomo directed NYSDOT to do it this time.  I have a feeling that in the end, it will be a boulevard.  I wouldn't be surprised if this study is just for show.

Syracuse.com: After 4 years of study, Cuomo orders new study on I-81 project (http://www.syracuse.com/state/index.ssf/2017/01/syracuse_cuomo_state_of_the_state_i-81_cny.html)

Anyone want to lay odds on when the existing structure will unfortunately fall down in a fit of chaos?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 11, 2017, 04:58:31 PM
Haven't they studied this enough? Pick an alternative, design it, fund it, and build it! At this rate, the viaduct will collapse before they're through arguing about how to replace it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 11, 2017, 05:30:14 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 11, 2017, 04:58:31 PM
Haven't they studied this enough? Pick an alternative, design it, fund it, and build it! At this rate, the viaduct will collapse before they're through arguing about how to replace it.
My bet that every time an alternative is finally chosen, one of affluent Cuomo's friends give him a call and asks for a second look. And there are way to many friends...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on January 11, 2017, 05:35:17 PM
If the community grid is chosen, I wonder how much (if anything) would be saved as opposed to going with a replacement viaduct or tunnel in the first place.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on January 11, 2017, 05:39:58 PM
Quote from: Michael on January 11, 2017, 05:35:17 PM
If the community grid is chosen, I wonder how much (if anything) would be saved as opposed to going with a replacement viaduct or tunnel in the first place.

There seems to be a ton of political opposition to full removal. I'm really curious about how this will turn out.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 11, 2017, 05:54:54 PM
Judging by the article, I'm guessing the viaduct is off the table.  Maybe this will be Cuomo's next 10 billion dollar project?  But what happens if the consultant just comes to the same conclusion as Region 3 did?  How many times are we going to spend money on studying this again and again because some residents and businesses can't be bothered to look at the existing reasons for removing the tunnel from consideration?

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Revive 755 on January 11, 2017, 06:10:38 PM
I would think not have the viaduct as an alternative in the study would open said study up to a major lawsuit for not considering (if only briefly) a viable alternative.  Or is New York planning not to use any federal funds for the replacement?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on January 11, 2017, 06:19:20 PM
QuoteThere seems to be a ton of political opposition to full removal.

Mostly outside of Syracuse.  And the state rep who's hell bent on having a tunnel alternative doesn't represent the area the Viaduct's located in (he represents north & west of downtown).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: DJStephens on January 12, 2017, 12:09:51 PM
This appears to be the first time a movement to remove a section of a major highway is being considered.  A true inter-state route, not a stub such as Detroits I-375 or New Havens route 34.   May wind up very badly, if the vocal minority wins out, and the route through Syracuse is decommissioned.   
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on January 12, 2017, 01:16:54 PM
Quote from: DJStephens on January 12, 2017, 12:09:51 PM
This appears to be the first time a movement to remove a section of a major highway is being considered.  A true inter-state route, not a stub such as Detroits I-375 or New Havens route 34.   May wind up very badly, if the vocal minority wins out, and the route through Syracuse is decommissioned.

AFAIK, it is. The governor ordered a diet of NY 198, but that only served local traffic.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on January 12, 2017, 01:19:53 PM
The underutilized bypass would serve as Interstate 81, so it's not as if the route in the area is evaporating entirely. Through Syracuse that eliminated and destroyed hundreds of historic residences and commercial buildings without their will and agreement, by politicians that later regretted their decision? (There was a great book at Cornell's library that I'll have to find again on this topic.)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on January 12, 2017, 01:57:42 PM
Quote from: Sherman Cahal on January 12, 2017, 01:19:53 PM
The underutilized bypass would serve as Interstate 81, so it's not as if the route in the area is evaporating entirely. Through Syracuse that eliminated and destroyed hundreds of historic residences and commercial buildings without their will and agreement, by politicians that later regretted their decision? (There was a great book at Cornell's library that I'll have to find again on this topic.)

A slightly-underutilized bypass would go nearly to capacity with little room for growth.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on January 12, 2017, 02:22:04 PM
What is the cost breakdown of adding a lane to the bypass versus demolition-and-reconstruction of the viaduct or tunnel? Surely adding one lane where there is a wide median and support for an addition lane will be cheaper.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on January 12, 2017, 02:31:09 PM
Quote from: Sherman Cahal on January 12, 2017, 02:22:04 PM
What is the cost breakdown of adding a lane to the bypass versus demolition-and-reconstruction of the viaduct or tunnel? Surely adding one lane where there is a wide median and support for an addition lane will be cheaper.

Problem isn't necessarily the one lane. It's the bridges (one of which is quite long) and two interchanges need to be completely redesigned. Cost will probably end up being even because of that. Bridges as they are are ~30 feet wide and, when widened, need full shoulders to meet standards.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on January 12, 2017, 03:06:58 PM
QuoteCost will probably end up being even because of that. Bridges as they are are ~30 feet wide and, when widened, need full shoulders to meet standards.

I think you're overstating the costs of improving I-481, especially considering that widening the long bridge you're referring to was already factored into the Community Grid cost estimate.  I also think you're overstating the amount of traffic that would flood I-481.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 12, 2017, 03:40:14 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 12, 2017, 03:06:58 PM
QuoteCost will probably end up being even because of that. Bridges as they are are ~30 feet wide and, when widened, need full shoulders to meet standards.

I think you're overstating the costs of improving I-481, especially considering that widening the long bridge you're referring to was already factored into the Community Grid cost estimate.  I also think you're overstating the amount of traffic that would flood I-481.
I had an impression community grid plan did not include widening 481 throughout...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on January 12, 2017, 03:48:32 PM
From what I've come across, I-481 would see improvements to its southern and northern access points where I-81 would join, and the mainline would be widened. It's not really shifting that much more traffic onto the bypass as that traffic is already through traffic for I-81. Most of the I-81 traffic is for local access.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on January 12, 2017, 05:56:42 PM
Quote from: kalvadoI had an impression community grid plan did not include widening 481 throughout...

It didn't.  But widening the long bridges over the railyard north of I-690...the long bridges cl94 alluded to...IS part of that plan.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 12, 2017, 08:23:51 PM
IMO the widening selected for the community grid plan is weird.  I can't figure out a rhyme or reason why the stretches widened were selected.  When NYSDOT said widening from I-690 to I-90, I assumed the entire way in both directions.  Instead, it's much more limited, and not on both directions at the same time.  IMO the entire route should be widened throughout.

(personal opinion emphasized)

Quote from: Sherman Cahal on January 12, 2017, 01:19:53 PM
The underutilized bypass would serve as Interstate 81, so it's not as if the route in the area is evaporating entirely. Through Syracuse that eliminated and destroyed hundreds of historic residences and commercial buildings without their will and agreement, by politicians that later regretted their decision? (There was a great book at Cornell's library that I'll have to find again on this topic.)
Underutilized?  Every single time I have been on that road, there was enough traffic that one could not drive the speed limit.  It's frustrating.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on January 12, 2017, 08:40:57 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 12, 2017, 08:23:51 PM
Quote from: Sherman Cahal on January 12, 2017, 01:19:53 PM
The underutilized bypass would serve as Interstate 81, so it's not as if the route in the area is evaporating entirely. Through Syracuse that eliminated and destroyed hundreds of historic residences and commercial buildings without their will and agreement, by politicians that later regretted their decision? (There was a great book at Cornell's library that I'll have to find again on this topic.)
Underutilized?  Every single time I have been on that road, there was enough traffic that one could not drive the speed limit.  It's frustrating.

I was thinking the same thing. I have never been able to drive 65 on that road. Never. AADTs aren't a good metric to ascertain peak volumes, but since I don't have PHVs, NY 5 to I-90 ranges from 47K to 65K. I-81 south of downtown has an AADT of 82K. Enough of that is through traffic, much of it being between the south and west.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on January 13, 2017, 08:31:24 AM
Never? Outside of rush hour, the LOS is acceptable. I've driven 65 to 80 MPH on I-481 outside of rush hour. Sustained for the entire distance? No. It's a candidate for widening but you can't expect to drive 65 MPH for the entire duration around a major city.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: amroad17 on January 13, 2017, 05:29:05 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 11, 2017, 01:36:15 PM
I've put together an I-81 boulevard concept that draws heavily from the Community Grid option but adds a few other elements to it.  Because of the fictional nature of some of those elements, I posted it in Fictional Highways (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19512).
I do like your concepts for this.  I could see a good portion of these come to fruition, except the NY 815 concept.  I, personally, would have loved to see that happen--but it would have had to have been built in the early 1980's before much of the development around now was completed.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 13, 2017, 06:01:24 PM
I hope this gets resolved soon. It truly is taking forever.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 13, 2017, 09:12:07 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 13, 2017, 06:01:24 PM
I hope this gets resolved soon. It truly is taking forever.

Because yet another round of studies are being made on it, it's going to be a while before even the alternative is chosen.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on January 13, 2017, 09:56:26 PM
Quote from: cl94 on January 12, 2017, 08:40:57 PM
I was thinking the same thing. I have never been able to drive 65 on that road. Never. AADTs aren't a good metric to ascertain peak volumes, but since I don't have PHVs, NY 5 to I-90 ranges from 47K to 65K. I-81 south of downtown has an AADT of 82K. Enough of that is through traffic, much of it being between the south and west.

I had to Google PHV, and I'm assuming you mean peak hour volumes?

Did you get the AADT values from the Traffic Data Viewer?  In the TDV, you can click the line to get a popup, and select the volume report link.  For some reason, the AADT label between NY 5/92 and I-690 is for both directions, but the volume report is only for the northbound (mislabeled in the report as eastbound) direction.  In that direction, the current report (from 2010) shows a peak of 3,454 between 8 and 9 AM.  The speed report lists a peak of 2,866 northbound between 8 and 9 AM, and 3,153 southbound between 6 and 7 PM.  The speed report numbers are from 2006.  I've seen plenty of old data in the TDV, and it would be nice if they updated the PDFs.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 14, 2017, 12:59:30 AM
The TDV has data as recent as the year of update; any counts taken after that (currently only the ones taken in 2016) wouldn't be there.  Not every station gets counted every year; ideally, most get counted every three years, but they sometimes get missed (which happens often with interstates due to high volume/traffic speeds); some local bridges and railroad crossings are every five years, and ramps are every six years.  Note that this is for the VOLUME data; class/speed historically hasn't had such a rotation, although these days we are striving to get those types of counts more often.

The NB-only report is interesting.  Makes me wonder if there was an issue with the hourly breakdown for the SB report or something.

Quote from: Sherman Cahal on January 13, 2017, 08:31:24 AM
Never? Outside of rush hour, the LOS is acceptable. I've driven 65 to 80 MPH on I-481 outside of rush hour. Sustained for the entire distance? No. It's a candidate for widening but you can't expect to drive 65 MPH for the entire duration around a major city.
I don't think most of my trips are in rush hour, and I still can't hit 65, especially between NY 5/NY 92 and I-90 (which is the sections that I have cause to see most times; nearly every trip on the rest of I-481 has been specifically to clinch parts of it, though I have had issues on the southern end as well; no issue with the northern end, but then, I've only been on that part of it once).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Buffaboy on January 15, 2017, 01:18:10 AM
Why don't they route it along the train tracks to the west and up to the T interchange at I-690, and then continue northward?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on January 15, 2017, 07:46:50 AM
They looked at that, but A) those tracks are still active, and B) not enough rail ROW to shoehorn a freeway in there without requiring significant land takings adjacent to the railroad.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TML on February 19, 2017, 11:53:37 PM
As a former Syracuse resident (having lived there from 1994-1999), I went through this stretch of 81 countless times, and even now, most map websites and GPS devices will direct me over 81 in downtown Syracuse when traveling between points south (e.g. NYC, Binghamton, etc.) and points west (e.g. Rochester, Buffalo, Toronto, etc.). So this is definitely a very well utilized freeway.

After careful consideration of this issue, I support keeping 81 on its present course and I do not support rerouting 81 onto 481. I believe that rerouting 81 onto 481 will unduly favor the city of Syracuse at the expense of outlying areas: while the city itself may seem improved, outlying areas will see increased traffic (especially commercial traffic) resulting in more noise and/or pollution. The eastern/northern suburbs will have increased traffic as a direct result of 481 being changed to 81, while the southern/western suburbs will have increased traffic as a result of the increased overall distance of 81, which would lead many to exit 81 south of Syracuse and travel onto suburban (non-freeway) roads in those areas.

That said, however, it seems to me like there is no single solution which will make everyone involved happy. The simplest solution, which is rehabilitation of the existing viaduct, will keep everything (the routing of 81, existing buildings, etc.) as-is, but will not fix features of the highway which do not conform to modern standards. The two "finalist" options presented by the DOT will each leave winners and losers: the new viaduct option will probably leave those in the city (especially those associated with the affected buildings) unhappy, while the community grid & reroute option will probably leave those in outlying areas unhappy. The tunnel and depressed highway options, which some say satisfies both people who want the viaduct gone for good as well as those who want 81 to remain on its present course, are not favored by the DOT due to their relatively high costs compared to other options, as well as potential logistical challenges with the terrain below.

I have noticed that even lawmakers (local, state, and federal) have gotten involved in this issue. I suspect that if TPTB chooses either of the "finalist" options mentioned above, protests will follow. I note that protests have already occurred in Denver as a result of the 70 viaduct replacement project there, and given the sentiment here in the Syracuse area, I have every reason to believe that there will be similar protests - perhaps even stronger than those in Denver - here once TPTB announces a decision. I think the final outcome will probably depend on which side lobbies harder.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on February 23, 2017, 01:16:39 AM
Quote from: TML on February 19, 2017, 11:53:37 PM

I have noticed that even lawmakers (local, state, and federal) have gotten involved in this issue. I suspect that if TPTB chooses either of the "finalist" options mentioned above, protests will follow. I note that protests have already occurred in Denver as a result of the 70 viaduct replacement project there, and given the sentiment here in the Syracuse area, I have every reason to believe that there will be similar protests - perhaps even stronger than those in Denver - here once TPTB announces a decision. I think the final outcome will probably depend on which side lobbies harder.

Politics -- and its byproduct, political will -- has proven to be the proverbial "double-edged sword"; used to both place facilities that have less than consensus approval as well as remove them to satisfy the desires of a particular constituency.  For better or worse, that's the norm within the realm of transportation policy these days. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on October 21, 2017, 08:27:51 PM
I saw a Reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/Syracuse/comments/75jat9/i81_calling_all_urban_planners_architects) a few days ago that had a link to a site called Without 81 (http://without81.com), which compares driving directions in Syracuse with and without I-81.  Something must be wrong with the code since most of the routes I tried still used I-81 even on the "without I-81" directions.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on October 22, 2017, 08:19:05 PM
Quote from: Michael on October 21, 2017, 08:27:51 PM
I saw a Reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/Syracuse/comments/75jat9/i81_calling_all_urban_planners_architects) a few days ago that had a link to a site called Without 81 (http://without81.com), which compares driving directions in Syracuse with and without I-81.  Something must be wrong with the code since most of the routes I tried still used I-81 even on the "without I-81" directions.
Or they're making a point. :-D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on October 24, 2017, 08:47:30 AM
QuoteAnd let's face it, most of the thru traffic using the viaduct is going between south and west.

My experience is that this isn't the case.  This is backed up by what NYSDOT found when they did a through traffic check near the beginning of the I-81 studies.  First thing they found is that there's less than 6,000 through vehicles a day.  Second thing they found is there's more traffic continuing north on 81 than there is going from the south to either direction on the Thruway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on October 24, 2017, 10:05:06 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 24, 2017, 08:47:30 AM
QuoteAnd let's face it, most of the thru traffic using the viaduct is going between south and west.

My experience is that this isn't the case.  This is backed up by what NYSDOT found when they did a through traffic check near the beginning of the I-81 studies.  First thing they found is that there's less than 6,000 through vehicles a day.  Second thing they found is there's more traffic continuing north on 81 than there is going from the south to either direction on the Thruway.

Precisely. Traffic from the south generally gets off around what was Carousel Center or further south. A lot of the traffic between Binghamton and Buffalo uses I-86/390, NY 63, and US 20 to avoid the toll.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on October 24, 2017, 01:22:52 PM
Traffic going between Watertown and Binghamton is already directed to I-481.  Traffic between the south and east already takes I-481 or I-88 depending on origin/destination.  It's only traffic between the south/west that HAS to take I-81 (and yes, it is faster to do so over I-86 and I-390).  I-481 is a bit of a detour, plus it already has enough traffic that you can't drive the speed limit, and the official widening plans are IMO less that what is needed NOW, much less what will be needed when you get rid of I-81.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on October 24, 2017, 08:26:08 PM
Quote from: webny99I assume "through traffic" excludes those headed to I-690, which is problematic, since I-690 serves those traveling between south and west. Obviously, anyone originating south of Syracuse isn't going to get on the thruway at the I-81/thruway interchange. Eastbound uses I-481, westbound uses the viaduct (but then I-690).

You tell me... (http://www.thei81challenge.org/cm/ResourceFiles/resources/Interstate%20Through%20Traffic.pdf)

Bottom line:  there's not a whole lot of through traffic.  And over half of what is there is strictly I-81 through traffic which could easily be diverted to I-481 (especially with the proposed direct route connections) should the Boulevard option be chosen.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on October 25, 2017, 09:50:33 AM
They could.  And they would if the viaduct were ever shut down for any reason (which occasionally does happen).

I would agree that the mitigation they currently have planned for the Boulevard option is insufficient (especially the I-481 segments that vdeane mentioned).  But I'm also not convinced that the Boulevard is a bad option and that additional mitigation could not be included.   In fact, what I had in mind (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19512) would effectively cover things and likely still cost less than the viaduct replacement option.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Henry on October 25, 2017, 10:26:46 AM
They should look to The Embarcadero to see how a boulevard can effectively replace a freeway if it is done right. Sure, CA 480 would've been a quick way to get from one bridge to the other, but as completed, it would also have destroyed too much of San Francisco to recover.

BTW, are there still plans to remove I-83 in Baltimore?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on October 25, 2017, 08:52:58 PM
The big difference between I-81 and I-480 is that I-480 was never completed.  What was removed was essentially a spur that quickly petered out onto surface streets anyways.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on October 26, 2017, 10:31:36 AM
Depends what you define as "significant".  From Exit 39 to 81 at Nedrow, it's 8 miles longer taking 690 to 481, and 10 miles longer staying on the Thruway to 481.  For long-distance travelers, that's not really a high percentage of overall trip length.

But you're also talking about only around 2,000 vpd who are through travelers in those directions.  Small potatoes.

BTW, for "variety", there's a route from Exit 41, via NY 318, US 20, NY 34, and NY 90 that's 20 miles shorter and only a few minutes longer than going through Syracuse.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on October 26, 2017, 11:14:54 AM
Quote from: Henry on October 25, 2017, 10:26:46 AM
They should look to The Embarcadero to see how a boulevard can effectively replace a freeway if it is done right. Sure, CA 480 would've been a quick way to get from one bridge to the other, but as completed, it would also have destroyed too much of San Francisco to recover.

BTW, are there still plans to remove I-83 in Baltimore?
The Embarcadero is clogged with slow traffic at all hours with all of its non-sequentially timed lights. Your point? I'm tired of removing freeways just because they're urban or elevated. There is enough traffic to warrant a freeway, even if most of it isn't through, and that is still the most efficient way to distribute downtown traffic. Instead of talking about how good Syracuse will be without a freeway, we should be discussing how best to rebuild it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 26, 2017, 12:07:41 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 26, 2017, 11:14:54 AM
Quote from: Henry on October 25, 2017, 10:26:46 AM
They should look to The Embarcadero to see how a boulevard can effectively replace a freeway if it is done right. Sure, CA 480 would've been a quick way to get from one bridge to the other, but as completed, it would also have destroyed too much of San Francisco to recover.

BTW, are there still plans to remove I-83 in Baltimore?
The Embarcadero is clogged with slow traffic at all hours with all of its non-sequentially timed lights. Your point? I'm tired of removing freeways just because they're urban or elevated. There is enough traffic to warrant a freeway, even if most of it isn't through, and that is still the most efficient way to distribute downtown traffic. Instead of talking about how good Syracuse will be without a freeway, we should be discussing how best to rebuild it.
Well, there are enough people who believe highway in downtown is a worst thing ever - and democracy means their voice is also heard.. We can disagreee with them, but they do have some point.
A more interesting way of putting it - and there is a grain of truth in that  - that old cities are not getting what they expect to get from cooperation with suburbs; and that they would do bette without looking at interests of suburbs (= commuters using those freeways). I don't really believe in that - but see above...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 26, 2017, 10:13:42 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 26, 2017, 11:14:54 AM
The Embarcadero is clogged with slow traffic at all hours with all of its non-sequentially timed lights. Your point? I'm tired of removing freeways just because they're urban or elevated. There is enough traffic to warrant a freeway, even if most of it isn't through, and that is still the most efficient way to distribute downtown traffic. Instead of talking about how good Syracuse will be without a freeway, we should be discussing how best to rebuild it.

Rebuild it just like many other older freeway bridges have been rebuilt.  The substructure looks adequate, so the superstructure (beams and roadway deck) can either be replaced or redecked.  If there is room then widen the substructure so that it can support a wider roadway deck with full shoulders.  If there is room then realign roadways and ramps as needed.  If there is not room for widening and/or realignment of the viaduct then don't do that, just replace the substructure or the roadway deck.

This is not complicated; some of the locals are making it complicated.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on October 26, 2017, 11:38:50 PM
Quote from: BeltwayThe substructure looks adequate

I can tell you from experience that it's not.

And the FHWA won't sign off on "just replace the substructure" without substantial improvements to the geometry.  So it really is a lot more complicated than you're making it out to be, and not just because of "the locals"...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 26, 2017, 11:55:53 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 26, 2017, 11:38:50 PM
Quote from: BeltwayThe substructure looks adequate
I can tell you from experience that it's not.
And the FHWA won't sign off on "just replace the substructure" without substantial improvements to the geometry.  So it really is a lot more complicated than you're making it out to be, and not just because of "the locals"...

Then replace or rehab the substructure.  The bridge was built in an Interstate highway project.  The FHWA is not going to force them to widen it and/or realign it if there would be infeasible right-of-way impacts.

The realignment/expansion of the highway would obviously have huge right-of-way impacts --
http://cdn.thinglink.me/api/image/660135028889485313/640/10/scaletowidth


The I-95 James River Bridge in Richmond was rebuilt 1999-2002, was originally opened in 1958.  Major rehab to the substructure, replacement of most of the superstructure and all of the roadway deck.  The FHWA did not force them to widen it to provide full shoulders, which would have been rather expensive.  So there are precedents for rebuilding Interstate highway bridges even when the DOT keeps certain features from the original design that are obsolete today.  (I would like to see full shoulders there, but it would have greatly increased the costs).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: PHLBOS on October 27, 2017, 08:45:55 AM
Quote from: kalvado on October 26, 2017, 12:07:41 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 26, 2017, 11:14:54 AM
Quote from: Henry on October 25, 2017, 10:26:46 AM
They should look to The Embarcadero to see how a boulevard can effectively replace a freeway if it is done right. Sure, CA 480 would've been a quick way to get from one bridge to the other, but as completed, it would also have destroyed too much of San Francisco to recover.

BTW, are there still plans to remove I-83 in Baltimore?
The Embarcadero is clogged with slow traffic at all hours with all of its non-sequentially timed lights. Your point? I'm tired of removing freeways just because they're urban or elevated. There is enough traffic to warrant a freeway, even if most of it isn't through, and that is still the most efficient way to distribute downtown traffic. Instead of talking about how good Syracuse will be without a freeway, we should be discussing how best to rebuild it.
Well, there are enough people who believe highway in downtown is a worst thing ever - and democracy means their voice is also heard.. We can disagreee with them, but they do have some point.
A more interesting way of putting it - and there is a grain of truth in that  - that old cities are not getting what they expect to get from cooperation with suburbs; and that they would do bette without looking at interests of suburbs (= commuters using those freeways). I don't really believe in that - but see above...

FWIW, here's the Wiki account (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Route_480) with an excerpt (below) regarding the Embarcadero (bold emphasis added):
Quote from: WikipediaIn the 1980s, opposition to the Embarcadero Freeway resurfaced in proposals to tear it down. On November 5, 1985, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors voted to tear down the Embarcadero Freeway.   The proposal was put to the voters in 1987 and soundly defeated, opposed in particular by influential Chinatown community organizer Rose Pak, who feared that Chinatown would suffer catastrophic consequences if it would lose this fast crosstown connection.  The October 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake significantly damaged the structure, causing it to be closed to traffic. Caltrans planned to retrofit and retain the double-decker freeway. Various groups in and outside the City supported the Caltrans plan, but there was a significant opinion within the City in favor of removing the freeway structure. Then-Mayor Art Agnos proposed demolishing the freeway in favor of a boulevard with an underpass at the Ferry Building to allow for a large plaza.

Opposition to demolishing the freeway mounted again, with over 20,000 signatures gathered to again create a ballot measure.   Prior to the earthquake, the Embarcadero Freeway carried approximately 70,000 vehicles daily in the vicinity of the Ferry Building. Another 40,000 vehicles per day used associated ramps at Main and Beale streets. The strongest opposition came from Chinatown and other neighborhoods north of downtown.  Merchants in Chinatown had suffered a dramatic decline in business in the months immediately following the earthquake and feared that if the freeway was not reopened they would not recover.

Agnos continued to negotiate with federal and state officials to win enough funding to make the demolition practical, and the opposition relented. Agnos argued that the city would squander "the opportunity of a lifetime" if it allowed the freeway to remain.  After months of debate, the Board of Supervisors narrowly voted in favor of demolition by a 6—5 margin.  Demolition began on February 27, 1991. That year, Agnos was defeated for re-election as Chinatown switched its support away from him.

Upshoot to the above IMHO:

1.  Had the 1989 earthquake not happened, the Freeway might be still standing & in use.

2.  Support for the keeping the freeway came from locals (i.e. voters) as well as commuters (i.e. outsiders).

3.  The Mayor who supported the freeway removal was shortly voted out of office.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 27, 2017, 09:07:47 AM
Quote from: PHLBOS on October 27, 2017, 08:45:55 AM
Quote from: kalvado on October 26, 2017, 12:07:41 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 26, 2017, 11:14:54 AM
Quote from: Henry on October 25, 2017, 10:26:46 AM
They should look to The Embarcadero to see how a boulevard can effectively replace a freeway if it is done right. Sure, CA 480 would've been a quick way to get from one bridge to the other, but as completed, it would also have destroyed too much of San Francisco to recover.

BTW, are there still plans to remove I-83 in Baltimore?
The Embarcadero is clogged with slow traffic at all hours with all of its non-sequentially timed lights. Your point? I'm tired of removing freeways just because they're urban or elevated. There is enough traffic to warrant a freeway, even if most of it isn't through, and that is still the most efficient way to distribute downtown traffic. Instead of talking about how good Syracuse will be without a freeway, we should be discussing how best to rebuild it.
Well, there are enough people who believe highway in downtown is a worst thing ever - and democracy means their voice is also heard.. We can disagreee with them, but they do have some point.
A more interesting way of putting it - and there is a grain of truth in that  - that old cities are not getting what they expect to get from cooperation with suburbs; and that they would do bette without looking at interests of suburbs (= commuters using those freeways). I don't really believe in that - but see above...

FWIW, here's the Wiki account (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Route_480) with an excerpt (below) regarding the Embarcadero (bold emphasis added):
Quote from: WikipediaIn the 1980s, opposition to the Embarcadero Freeway resurfaced in proposals to tear it down. On November 5, 1985, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors voted to tear down the Embarcadero Freeway.   The proposal was put to the voters in 1987 and soundly defeated, opposed in particular by influential Chinatown community organizer Rose Pak, who feared that Chinatown would suffer catastrophic consequences if it would lose this fast crosstown connection.  The October 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake significantly damaged the structure, causing it to be closed to traffic. Caltrans planned to retrofit and retain the double-decker freeway. Various groups in and outside the City supported the Caltrans plan, but there was a significant opinion within the City in favor of removing the freeway structure. Then-Mayor Art Agnos proposed demolishing the freeway in favor of a boulevard with an underpass at the Ferry Building to allow for a large plaza.

Opposition to demolishing the freeway mounted again, with over 20,000 signatures gathered to again create a ballot measure.   Prior to the earthquake, the Embarcadero Freeway carried approximately 70,000 vehicles daily in the vicinity of the Ferry Building. Another 40,000 vehicles per day used associated ramps at Main and Beale streets. The strongest opposition came from Chinatown and other neighborhoods north of downtown.  Merchants in Chinatown had suffered a dramatic decline in business in the months immediately following the earthquake and feared that if the freeway was not reopened they would not recover.

Agnos continued to negotiate with federal and state officials to win enough funding to make the demolition practical, and the opposition relented. Agnos argued that the city would squander "the opportunity of a lifetime" if it allowed the freeway to remain.  After months of debate, the Board of Supervisors narrowly voted in favor of demolition by a 6—5 margin.  Demolition began on February 27, 1991. That year, Agnos was defeated for re-election as Chinatown switched its support away from him.

Upshoot to the above IMHO:

1.  Had the 1989 earthquake not happened, the Freeway might be still standing & in use.

2.  Support for the keeping the freeway came from locals (i.e. voters) as well as commuters (i.e. outsiders).

3.  The Mayor who supported the freeway removal was shortly voted out of office.

Each situation is somewhat unique... I-81 (and - somewhat similar - I-787 next door) are a bit different, as there is more or less clear division of local vs commuter. And while 787 removal is just a pipe dream (riverfront? How about learning how to deal with your shit first, Albany? literally), 81 is a possibly winning case. If there is much to win for Syracuse anyway...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 27, 2017, 09:13:21 AM
I really doubt removing I-81 is a win.  I just imagine a crowded boulevard and angry long-distance drivers.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 27, 2017, 09:19:19 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 27, 2017, 09:13:21 AM
I really doubt removing I-81 is a win.  I just imagine a crowded boulevard and angry long-distance drivers.
A win as in win of inner city residents' current opinion. Long term.... My impression is that there are only some bad solutions on the table. Some are even worse than others, but no good one. Combined with upstate not having a prime time in general....
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on October 27, 2017, 10:01:48 AM
Quote from: Rothmanand angry long-distance drivers.

One of them in this thread.  Though they are clearly in the minority here.  And it's not like there aren't alternatives for that long-distance travel, despite the claims that it's "too long of a detour".

Of course, if NYSDOT can't figure out how to fund whatever they choose, deterioration may give us the "boulevard" answer anyway...without the planned mitigation.  This is also where the boulevard option has a leg on the viaduct replacement:  it's cheaper.  And despite what Beltway posted above, I have to expect that FHWA has been in on the planning for this...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 27, 2017, 10:10:34 AM
Although funding is a significant issue, I believe it isn't as problematic as it could be.  Unlike other states, NYSDOT has stayed well under its advance construction threshold and therefore I bet it will use that room to help fund I-81.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 27, 2017, 10:15:17 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 27, 2017, 10:10:34 AM
Although funding is a significant issue, I believe it isn't as problematic as it could be.  Unlike other states, NYSDOT has stayed well under its advance construction threshold and therefore I bet it will use that room to help fund I-81.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Depending on what is considered "problematic". Tunnel will be an ideal solution - and wouldn't cost much more than the Big Dig...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 27, 2017, 10:19:55 AM
Tunnel will not be happening.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 27, 2017, 10:23:16 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 27, 2017, 10:19:55 AM
Tunnel will not be happening.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Of course. Until they find some gold in the ground to be mined during construction....
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 10:55:21 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 27, 2017, 10:01:48 AM
Of course, if NYSDOT can't figure out how to fund whatever they choose, deterioration may give us the "boulevard" answer anyway...without the planned mitigation.  This is also where the boulevard option has a leg on the viaduct replacement:  it's cheaper.  And despite what Beltway posted above, I have to expect that FHWA has been in on the planning for this...

The last 10 to 15 years we have entered a new era in the Interstate highway system, namely where numbers of major Interstate bridges are reaching 40 to 50 years old or more, and  are simply wearing out and need major reconstruction or replacement.  Saying that "it's cheaper" to let them deteriorate and eventually close is no solution, this is something that state and federal funding needs to address and solve.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 27, 2017, 11:06:45 AM
Quote from: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 10:55:21 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 27, 2017, 10:01:48 AM
Of course, if NYSDOT can't figure out how to fund whatever they choose, deterioration may give us the "boulevard" answer anyway...without the planned mitigation.  This is also where the boulevard option has a leg on the viaduct replacement:  it's cheaper.  And despite what Beltway posted above, I have to expect that FHWA has been in on the planning for this...

The last 10 to 15 years we have entered a new era in the Interstate highway system, namely where numbers of major Interstate bridges are reaching 40 to 50 years old or more, and  are simply wearing out and need major reconstruction or replacement.  Saying that "it's cheaper" to let them deteriorate and eventually close is no solution, this is something that state and federal funding needs to address and solve.

NYSDOT recently invested quite a bit of money into rehabilitation of I-787, which is of similar era and design as I-81
Problem of I-81 is that there is no (relatively)cheap and (comparatively)simple option of fixing existing structure. There has to be a significantly different replacement, and given high traffic road in dense city - anything you can think of is a pain. Discussion is primarily focused on the question if cutting off a leg is better than cutting off a hand. Or maybe let the patient die to avoid making a choice? 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 27, 2017, 11:42:25 AM
For what it is worth, the I-787 rehab was a drop in the bucket compared to I-81's situation.  I-81 adds a whole bunch of zeroes. :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 27, 2017, 12:17:47 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 27, 2017, 11:42:25 AM
For what it is worth, the I-787 rehab was a drop in the bucket compared to I-81's situation.  I-81 adds a whole bunch of zeroes. :D
Quote from: kalvado on October 27, 2017, 11:06:45 AM
Problem of I-81 is that there is no (relatively)cheap and (comparatively)simple option of fixing existing structure.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 02:14:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 27, 2017, 11:42:25 AM
For what it is worth, the I-787 rehab was a drop in the bucket compared to I-81's situation.  I-81 adds a whole bunch of zeroes. :D

The New Tappan Zee Bridge added a couple more zeros to that.  It still had to be built, and is being built.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: PHLBOS on October 27, 2017, 02:52:02 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 02:14:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 27, 2017, 11:42:25 AM
For what it is worth, the I-787 rehab was a drop in the bucket compared to I-81's situation.  I-81 adds a whole bunch of zeroes. :D

The New Tappan Zee Bridge added a couple more zeros to that.  It still had to be built, and is being built.
To add: one of the new spans is already (temporarily serving both directions) in use & the old bridge is now closed for removal/demolition.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 02:53:24 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on October 27, 2017, 02:52:02 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 02:14:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 27, 2017, 11:42:25 AM
For what it is worth, the I-787 rehab was a drop in the bucket compared to I-81's situation.  I-81 adds a whole bunch of zeroes. :D
The New Tappan Zee Bridge added a couple more zeros to that.  It still had to be built, and is being built.
To add: one of the new spans is already (temporarily serving both directions) in use & the old bridge is now closed for removal/demolition.

Indeed, I was aware of the project stage.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on October 27, 2017, 03:45:28 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 02:14:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 27, 2017, 11:42:25 AM
For what it is worth, the I-787 rehab was a drop in the bucket compared to I-81's situation.  I-81 adds a whole bunch of zeroes. :D

The New Tappan Zee Bridge added a couple more zeros to that.  It still had to be built, and is being built.
Can't toll I-81.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on October 27, 2017, 04:53:55 PM
I travel it on a very routine basis and it would not inconvenience me. FWIW.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on October 27, 2017, 08:20:43 PM
It's pretty common to see garbage trucks going from NYC to the Seneca Meadows landfill in Seneca Falls cut the corner of Syracuse by going through Auburn.  They travel along US 20 when it splits from NY 5.  There's a ban for trucks over 10 feet wide on NY 41 and NY 41A, so I'm not sure how they get between US 20 and I-81.

At one point, there was talk of banning all trucks on NY 41 and NY 41A, but I couldn't find anything online about it.  I did come across a list of truck restrictions in the Finger Lakes (https://www.dot.ny.gov/nypermits/large-truck-restrictions) on the NYSDOT website.  I don't know if garbage trucks are restricted under a Special Hauling or Divisible Load permit.

On a side note, in 2015, Seneca Meadows proposed building a rail spur (http://www.fltimes.com/news/nyc-trash-train-is-it-on-the-way/article_2feeaa6e-7409-11e5-ab98-d32cb5a9bc43.html), which would have cut down a lot of the truck traffic between the south and west.  Seneca Meadows withdrew the proposal last year (http://www.fltimes.com/news/seneca-meadows-cites-local-opposition-in-dropping-proposed-trash-by/article_da509e0e-1e90-11e6-aeb9-5bb6df3c9f3c.html) after local opposition.  I thought of building a rail spur years ago since the landfill is so close to the railroad, and I was surprised it took as long as it did for it to be proposed.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 08:26:15 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 27, 2017, 03:45:28 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 02:14:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 27, 2017, 11:42:25 AM
For what it is worth, the I-787 rehab was a drop in the bucket compared to I-81's situation.  I-81 adds a whole bunch of zeroes. :D
The New Tappan Zee Bridge added a couple more zeros to that.  It still had to be built, and is being built.
Can't toll I-81.

Indeed, but it shouldn't need to be tolled.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on October 27, 2017, 08:32:00 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 08:26:15 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 27, 2017, 03:45:28 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 02:14:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 27, 2017, 11:42:25 AM
For what it is worth, the I-787 rehab was a drop in the bucket compared to I-81's situation.  I-81 adds a whole bunch of zeroes. :D
The New Tappan Zee Bridge added a couple more zeros to that.  It still had to be built, and is being built.
Can't toll I-81.

Indeed, but it shouldn't need to be tolled.
But you're comparing apples and oranges. Tap is more money, but supported by toll revenue.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 08:34:21 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 27, 2017, 08:32:00 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 08:26:15 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 27, 2017, 03:45:28 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 02:14:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 27, 2017, 11:42:25 AM
For what it is worth, the I-787 rehab was a drop in the bucket compared to I-81's situation.  I-81 adds a whole bunch of zeroes. :D
The New Tappan Zee Bridge added a couple more zeros to that.  It still had to be built, and is being built.
Can't toll I-81.
Indeed, but it shouldn't need to be tolled.
But you're comparing apples and oranges. Tap is more money, but supported by toll revenue.

Interstate projects are supported by up to 90% federal funding. 
Turnpikes normally don't get any federal funding.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: jemacedo9 on October 27, 2017, 09:48:13 PM
I travel the I-81/I-690 corridor sometimes from PA to Rochester NY...if I-481 were to remain free-flowing if I-81 were removed, I don't think removing I-81 would annoy me all that much.  An extra 10 minutes on a 5 hr trip isn't brutal.

The question is...would I-481, and I-690, remain free flowing, if not widened?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on October 27, 2017, 10:13:31 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 08:34:21 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 27, 2017, 08:32:00 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 08:26:15 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 27, 2017, 03:45:28 PM
Can't toll I-81.
Indeed, but it shouldn't need to be tolled.
But you're comparing apples and oranges. Tap is more money, but supported by toll revenue.

Interstate projects are supported by up to 90% federal funding. 
Turnpikes normally don't get any federal funding.
Federal monies go all over the country. Toll monies go straight to the road they're collected from. No matter what you try to say, it's apples and oranges in terms of how these projects are funded. Toll agencies look at their total revenue and decide how to allocate it. State agencies need to work with a more limited budget and apply for more. You know all of this.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: bugo on October 27, 2017, 10:17:06 PM
Mileage based exit numbers are far superior to sequential exit numbers.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: bugo on October 27, 2017, 10:22:08 PM
"Trips would just go away"? I question the theory that somebody would say "I want to go to (grocery store/club/Walmart/dispensary/church) but they tore the freeway down so I'll just stay home."
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on October 27, 2017, 10:38:35 PM
For the benefit of everyone, assume we have a supermarket, a Target, and a liquor store in a strip mall. If it takes you 10 minutes to drive there and gas costs $2/gallon, most people wouldn't think twice about making separate trips to each store. But suppose the travel time increases to 30 minutes each way or gas goes up to $5/gallon. You'll start hitting 2-3 of those stores during each trip and traveling to the area less often. Same idea is at play here. People will generally be combining trips as it will now be more inconvenient to travel to the other side of the metro area. If people work on one side and live on the other, they'll start visiting the stores on their way home from work to save a trip.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 11:43:29 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 27, 2017, 10:13:31 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 08:34:21 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 27, 2017, 08:32:00 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 27, 2017, 08:26:15 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 27, 2017, 03:45:28 PM
Can't toll I-81.
Indeed, but it shouldn't need to be tolled.
But you're comparing apples and oranges. Tap [TZ Bridge] is more money, but supported by toll revenue.
Interstate projects are supported by up to 90% federal funding. 
Turnpikes normally don't get any federal funding.
Federal monies go all over the country. Toll monies go straight to the road they're collected from. No matter what you try to say, it's apples and oranges in terms of how these projects are funded. Toll agencies look at their total revenue and decide how to allocate it. State agencies need to work with a more limited budget and apply for more. You know all of this.

Not quite.  There is a varied funding package --

The New York State Thruway Authority projects the 3.1-mile replacement bridge will cost $3.98 billion.  The state has already budgeted $3.65 billion of that cost.  More than half of the cost will be covered through borrowing.  The Thruway Authority has taken out an $850 million bond with payments through 2056.  The federal Department of Transportation loaned the state $1.6 billion.  Payments on the loan begin in 2023 and will last 30 years.  The state has spent $750 million on the project and has committed to spend $450 million more through 2018.

http://www.politifact.com/new-york/article/2017/aug/21/whos-paying-4-billion-tappan-zee-bridge-replacemen/
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 28, 2017, 07:33:03 AM
Quote from: PHLBOS on October 27, 2017, 08:45:55 AM
[[ ... Embarcadero Freeway cites snipped ... ]]
Upshoot to the above IMHO:
1.  Had the 1989 earthquake not happened, the Freeway might be still standing & in use.
2.  Support for the keeping the freeway came from locals (i.e. voters) as well as commuters (i.e. outsiders).
3.  The Mayor who supported the freeway removal was shortly voted out of office.

Very interesting.  I didn't realize that there was strong citizen support for keeping the freeway in service, existing both before and after the earthquake. 

Basically there was a local coup by the mayor and bare majority of the city council, a bogus and corrupt process used to remove the freeway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 28, 2017, 08:16:15 AM
Quote from: cl94 on October 27, 2017, 10:38:35 PM
For the benefit of everyone, assume we have a supermarket, a Target, and a liquor store in a strip mall. If it takes you 10 minutes to drive there and gas costs $2/gallon, most people wouldn't think twice about making separate trips to each store. But suppose the travel time increases to 30 minutes each way or gas goes up to $5/gallon. You'll start hitting 2-3 of those stores during each trip and traveling to the area less often. Same idea is at play here. People will generally be combining trips as it will now be more inconvenient to travel to the other side of the metro area. If people work on one side and live on the other, they'll start visiting the stores on their way home from work to save a trip.
It is pretty well known that demand for gas is not really elastic. Of course, combining trips is an option - but if I need 2 eggs for the dish I am making and realizing I am short of ingredients; or if I need a 4" section of plastic pipe to complete that sewer project - guess what?..
Even better, I have to go to work 5 days a week. Combining those trips with Lowes stop or grocery shopping is normal for me, but number of weekly trips is not really negotiable...
Tail of this graphs show 2008 recession, $5 gas.. and effect is in single digit %%..
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-gkMBwZppcDo%2FTzppPsZQdSI%2FAAAAAAAAE9I%2FySSI49bKhQc%2Fs1600%2Fzb-total-us-vehicle-miles-driven-in-previous-year-jan-1986-nov-2011.png&hash=9bd3100bc38daa19f0d5e25c418aeaac8f181674)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on October 28, 2017, 09:26:57 AM
And how do you guys think the loans are going to be paid back?  Tolls.  There's currently talk of the toll rising to $10 in 2020.  It's also worth noting that some of the money contributed by the state came from a one-time windfall from a bank settlement, and NY may be looking at a budget shortfall next year.

Also worth noting that you can't just spend money on interstates and get reimbursed at 90%.  Federal funds are given as block grants and have to be obligated, and that requires approval from a MPO in an urban area, and there are many other interests, including municipalities, competing for limited federal funds, and the MPO's priorities and the state's don't always line up, either.  Just because a road is an interstate is NOT a guarantee of how much federal funding (if any) will be available.  And the state's share can be an issue too; there are more needs in the state than there are funds to fix them.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 28, 2017, 12:03:07 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 28, 2017, 09:26:57 AM
And how do you guys think the loans are going to be paid back?  Tolls.  There's currently talk of the toll rising to $10 in 2020.  It's also worth noting that some of the money contributed by the state came from a one-time windfall from a bank settlement, and NY may be looking at a budget shortfall next year.

Agreed, $2.45 billion of bonds and loans is a lot of debt that needs to be serviced.  There is a whole funding package using innovative financing techniques to fund the TZ Bridge project.

Quote from: vdeane on October 28, 2017, 09:26:57 AM
Also worth noting that you can't just spend money on interstates and get reimbursed at 90%.  Federal funds are given as block grants and have to be obligated, and that requires approval from a MPO in an urban area, and there are many other interests, including municipalities, competing for limited federal funds, and the MPO's priorities and the state's don't always line up, either.  Just because a road is an interstate is NOT a guarantee of how much federal funding (if any) will be available.  And the state's share can be an issue too; there are more needs in the state than there are funds to fix them.

That's true, each state has annual allocation amounts from FHWA and it of course is a finite resource.

Nevertheless, maintenance, which includes maintenance replacements, is a fundamental and priority need on highway systems, that needs to be fully funded before spending money on new highways and expansion projects.  The state can't let MPOs be the sole arbiter of how to maintain Interstate highways.

I have been visiting friends in the Buffalo areas a couple times a year since 2008.  I noticed that the whole Interstate system there had major rehabs some time not very long before that time.  Long elevated sections had nice new roadway decks and parapets, with some ramp improvements.  I observed the total reconstruction project on the NY-5 freeway just south of the skyway bridge.

There is no reason why Syracuse should not receive similar treatments.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on October 28, 2017, 12:17:41 PM
It still goes back to how to pay for them.  Some of those Buffalo improvements you mention, specifically along I-90 and I-190, are Thruway-supported (as 90 and 190 through Buffalo were NYSTA-supported routes at the time).  And redecking a bridge, even a long viaduct, costs considerably less than completely replacing it under traffic as you well know.

So how do you pay for the Syracuse improvements?  FHWA funding is very finite, as you already mentioned...and Congress has been very loathe to increase the gas tax which is the #1 source of that money.  Nevermind that NYSDOT has needs that stretch far beyond Syracuse which is also a factor for potential state funding.  PPP?  Would likely require tolls, and all the regulatory hurdles that such would entail.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 28, 2017, 12:29:04 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 28, 2017, 12:17:41 PM
It still goes back to how to pay for them.  Some of those Buffalo improvements you mention, specifically along I-90 and I-190, are Thruway-supported (as 90 and 190 through Buffalo were NYSTA-supported routes at the time).  And redecking a bridge, even a long viaduct, costs considerably less than completely replacing it under traffic as you well know.

They were Thruway-supported routes in the early 2000s timespan?

I didn't look at them closely enough to see what had been done to the substructure; there may have been major rehabs to parts of them (as with I-95 JRB and Lombardy Bridge for example).

As for the Syracuse bridge, I have not seen definitive DOT evaluations that the substructure is not repairable.

Quote from: froggie on October 28, 2017, 12:17:41 PM
So how do you pay for the Syracuse improvements?  FHWA funding is very finite, as you already mentioned...and Congress has been very loathe to increase the gas tax which is the #1 source of that money.  Nevermind that NYSDOT has needs that stretch far beyond Syracuse which is also a factor for potential state funding.  PPP?  Would likely require tolls, and all the regulatory hurdles that such would entail.

It's not my job to figure it out.  NYSDOT has had the last 10 to 20 years to plan for how to fund and execute this project.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on October 28, 2017, 12:40:02 PM
QuoteThey were Thruway-supported routes in the early 2000s timespan?

Yep...and still are per NYSTA.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 28, 2017, 01:09:30 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 28, 2017, 12:40:02 PM
QuoteThey were Thruway-supported routes in the early 2000s timespan?
Yep...and still are per NYSTA.

Maybe we need more examples of such major Interstate bridge rebuild or replace projects performed on toll-free Interstate highways, where age and wear alone were sufficient warrants to replace or rebuild the bridge.

I-95 JRB and Lombardy Bridge already cited.  Originally built on a turnpike 1955-1958, but the rebuild projects (1999-2002 and 2012-14) took place on a toll-free Interstate highway.

I-91 bridge in Vermont, a $60 million project underway now.

I-81 New River bridges, Pulaski County, VA, opened 1965 and the $100 million replacement projects are now getting underway.  Modern picturesque bridges when built but are simply wearing out and need to be replaced.

I-71 bridges in Ohio -- The Jeremiah Morrow Bridge is the name for a pair of concrete box girder bridges built between 2010 and 2016 which carry Interstate 71 over the Little Miami River gorge between Fort Ancient and Oregonia, Ohio.  The bridges are 239 feet (73 m) above the river, making them the highest bridges in Ohio, and are 2,252 ft (686 m) long, 55 ft (17 m) wide, with 440 ft (130 m) main spans.  Cost $88 million.  [Wikipedia]

I-90 bridges in Cleveland, OH -- The George V. Voinovich Bridges are two bridges in Cleveland, Ohio, U.S., that carry Interstate 90 over the Cuyahoga River. They are named for George Voinovich, former mayor of Cleveland, Governor of Ohio, and United States Senator.  Innerbelt Fwy, Cleveland, OH.  Total length: 3,918′, Height 136 feet (41 m), Construction cost $293 million, Opened: November 9, 2013.  [Wikipedia]

Those are a few that I can think of at the moment.  All very expensive projects. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on October 28, 2017, 02:02:14 PM
I-90 and I-190 in Buffalo are NYSTA. No federal funding outside of very major projects. I-190 is NYSTA south of Exit 22. ALL of I-90 in NY is NYSTA save the free section through Albany. Region 5 maintains a relatively small amount of the regional expressway network.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on October 28, 2017, 09:36:08 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 28, 2017, 12:29:04 PM
It's not my job to figure it out.  NYSDOT has had the last 10 to 20 years to plan for how to fund and execute this project.
In other words, you have no answer, and you're just speculating that it's possible. It's really not. There are enough other demands on funding that they don't necessarily have the resources for something like this. They're planning it now, but a cheap boulevard will win over an expensive viaduct in this era without a Federal windfall... or tolls.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 28, 2017, 10:24:22 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 28, 2017, 09:36:08 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 28, 2017, 12:29:04 PM
It's not my job to figure it out.  NYSDOT has had the last 10 to 20 years to plan for how to fund and execute this project.
In other words, you have no answer, and you're just speculating that it's possible. It's really not. There are enough other demands on funding that they don't necessarily have the resources for something like this. They're planning it now, but a cheap boulevard will win over an expensive viaduct in this era without a Federal windfall... or tolls.

Why is it my responsibility to figure out how an agency should fund and execute a major maintenance replacement highway project?  We are not talking about building a new highway, we are talking about maintaining an Interstate highway that has been in place for over 50 years.  The bridge isn't even quite a mile long, DOT people should not be wringing their hands and having anxiety attacks over how to design and fund this project.

I have already posted details about the I-95 James River Bridge rebuild project here.  Thank goodness that the highway agencies didn't just say, "Hey, this is too hard, we can't figure out what to do, I don't know where we are going to find the money, we got I-295 now, that means that we can just close the I-95 JRB and route I-95 over I-295!"
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 29, 2017, 08:10:11 AM
Quote from: Beltway on October 28, 2017, 10:24:22 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 28, 2017, 09:36:08 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 28, 2017, 12:29:04 PM
It's not my job to figure it out.  NYSDOT has had the last 10 to 20 years to plan for how to fund and execute this project.
In other words, you have no answer, and you're just speculating that it's possible. It's really not. There are enough other demands on funding that they don't necessarily have the resources for something like this. They're planning it now, but a cheap boulevard will win over an expensive viaduct in this era without a Federal windfall... or tolls.

Why is it my responsibility to figure out how an agency should fund and execute a major maintenance replacement highway project?  We are not talking about building a new highway, we are talking about maintaining an Interstate highway that has been in place for over 50 years.  The bridge isn't even quite a mile long, DOT people should not be wringing their hands and having anxiety attacks over how to design and fund this project.

I have already posted details about the I-95 James River Bridge rebuild project here.  Thank goodness that the highway agencies didn't just say, "Hey, this is too hard, we can't figure out what to do, I don't know where we are going to find the money, we got I-295 now, that means that we can just close the I-95 JRB and route I-95 over I-295!"

Problem is that what they should do - or even better what they must do  - does not always align with what they can do.
As it stands right now, people who know situation better than you (and better than me, if that matters) keep telling that capabilities of NYDOT and expected funding - as well as public pressure from the city residents -  don't really line up with shoulds musts the way you see it.
Sometimes "no" is the only answer you can get.... 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 08:39:15 AM
Quote from: kalvado on October 29, 2017, 08:10:11 AM
Problem is that what they should do - or even better what they must do  - does not always align with what they can do.
As it stands right now, people who know situation better than you (and better than me, if that matters) keep telling that capabilities of NYDOT and expected funding - as well as public pressure from the city residents -  don't really line up with shoulds musts the way you see it.
Sometimes "no" is the only answer you can get.... 

Rebuilding 0.9 mile of 50+ year old elevated Interstate highway should be well within the capabilities of a DOT.

Illinois DOT has been rebuilding the old Chicago expressways one at a time for over 30 years.  They were built as Interstate highways back in the 1950s and 1960s.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 29, 2017, 08:54:35 AM
Quote from: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 08:39:15 AM
Quote from: kalvado on October 29, 2017, 08:10:11 AM
Problem is that what they should do - or even better what they must do  - does not always align with what they can do.
As it stands right now, people who know situation better than you (and better than me, if that matters) keep telling that capabilities of NYDOT and expected funding - as well as public pressure from the city residents -  don't really line up with shoulds musts the way you see it.
Sometimes "no" is the only answer you can get.... 

Rebuilding 0.9 mile of 50+ year old elevated Interstate highway should be well within the capabilities of a DOT.

Illinois DOT has been rebuilding the old Chicago expressways one at a time for over 30 years.  They were built as Interstate highways back in the 1950s and 1960s.

When you said that MPOs can't be the sole arbiters of federal funding, that told me you are not totally educated on the financing of transportation projects and the STIP development process.  So, let us dig ino this post of yours...

The comparison between IDOT's and NYSDOT's experiences is pretty silly as you laid it out.  Yes, IDOT can replace expressways in Chicagoland...just like NYSDOT and NYCDOT have done in NYC over the same time period!  Comparing work feasible to be done in the 1st and 3rd largest urban areas in the country and saying that work should be just as feasible in rotting Syracuse is ridiculous.  State DOTs allocate their funds regionally, and of course huge cities like NYC and Chicago will receive the bulk of those funds.  NYC gets half or even more than half of the funding for NY in each fiscal year.  That leaves only so much for the rest of the state, which typically does not have a nearly $2 billion project to fund (projected I-81 cost).  Heck, even NYC would be crying for help for something that large.

Within the capability of DOT?  Absolutely...but only when extraordinary funding is secured by the powers that be.  If there is no political will for a tunnel or other gigantic "solution," then that option is simply politically and fiscally infeasible.

(personal opinion expressed).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on October 29, 2017, 12:07:51 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 08:39:15 AM
Quote from: kalvado on October 29, 2017, 08:10:11 AM
Problem is that what they should do - or even better what they must do  - does not always align with what they can do.
As it stands right now, people who know situation better than you (and better than me, if that matters) keep telling that capabilities of NYDOT and expected funding - as well as public pressure from the city residents -  don't really line up with shoulds musts the way you see it.
Sometimes "no" is the only answer you can get.... 

Rebuilding 0.9 mile of 50+ year old elevated Interstate highway should be well within the capabilities of a DOT.

Illinois DOT has been rebuilding the old Chicago expressways one at a time for over 30 years.  They were built as Interstate highways back in the 1950s and 1960s.
For someone who says that you don't need to know how they can do something, you seem so damn certain that they can. Stop trolling.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 02:26:20 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 29, 2017, 12:07:51 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 08:39:15 AM
Quote from: kalvado on October 29, 2017, 08:10:11 AM
Problem is that what they should do - or even better what they must do  - does not always align with what they can do.
As it stands right now, people who know situation better than you (and better than me, if that matters) keep telling that capabilities of NYDOT and expected funding - as well as public pressure from the city residents -  don't really line up with shoulds musts the way you see it.
Sometimes "no" is the only answer you can get.... 
Rebuilding 0.9 mile of 50+ year old elevated Interstate highway should be well within the capabilities of a DOT.
Illinois DOT has been rebuilding the old Chicago expressways one at a time for over 30 years.  They were built as Interstate highways back in the 1950s and 1960s.
For someone who says that you don't need to know how they can do something, you seem so damn certain that they can. Stop trolling.

So there is always another "reason" why my comparisons aren't "relevant", for some reason or another.

I'm hearing a bunch of excuses.  If they want to say that for urban planning issues and local goals they want to deconstruct a freeway segment, then I can respect that.  If they want to try to cloak that decision in asserting that they can't find the money to fix this particular problem, then I have a problem with that notion.

"nearly $2 billion project to fund (projected I-81 cost)" -- where is the official estimate that it would cost that to rebuild or replace that viaduct on its current alignment.  Sounds exaggerated by an order of magnitude.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 29, 2017, 02:36:51 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 02:26:20 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 29, 2017, 12:07:51 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 08:39:15 AM
Quote from: kalvado on October 29, 2017, 08:10:11 AM
Problem is that what they should do - or even better what they must do  - does not always align with what they can do.
As it stands right now, people who know situation better than you (and better than me, if that matters) keep telling that capabilities of NYDOT and expected funding - as well as public pressure from the city residents -  don't really line up with shoulds musts the way you see it.
Sometimes "no" is the only answer you can get.... 
Rebuilding 0.9 mile of 50+ year old elevated Interstate highway should be well within the capabilities of a DOT.
Illinois DOT has been rebuilding the old Chicago expressways one at a time for over 30 years.  They were built as Interstate highways back in the 1950s and 1960s.
For someone who says that you don't need to know how they can do something, you seem so damn certain that they can. Stop trolling.

So there is always another "reason" why my comparisons aren't "relevant", for some reason or another.

I'm hearing a bunch of excuses.  If they want to say that for urban planning issues and local goals they want to deconstruct a freeway segment, then I can respect that.  If they want to try to cloak that decision in asserting that they can't find the money to fix this particular problem, then I have a problem with that notion.

"nearly $2 billion project to fund (projected I-81 cost)" -- where is the official estimate that it would cost that to rebuild or replace that viaduct on its current alignment.

I'm afraid you missed it - and information is somewhere way upstream by now:
https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/2016_OpenHouse_DRAFT_oct5_Rev.pdf
There are cost estimates, reasoning why certain things are not considered etc.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 02:43:45 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 29, 2017, 02:36:51 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 02:26:20 PM
"nearly $2 billion project to fund (projected I-81 cost)" -- where is the official estimate that it would cost that to rebuild or replace that viaduct on its current alignment.
I'm afraid you missed it - and information is somewhere way upstream by now:
https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/2016_OpenHouse_DRAFT_oct5_Rev.pdf
There are cost estimates, reasoning why certain things are not considered etc.

Those are major freeway realignment alternatives, with large scale urban right-of-way acquisitions, where such costs are quite conceivable.

If I lived there, I would most likely oppose such a project, for both cost issues and environmental impact issues.

Again -- rebuild or replace that 0.9 mile viaduct on its current alignment.  No new right-of-way acquisition.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 29, 2017, 02:57:48 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 02:43:45 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 29, 2017, 02:36:51 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 02:26:20 PM
"nearly $2 billion project to fund (projected I-81 cost)" -- where is the official estimate that it would cost that to rebuild or replace that viaduct on its current alignment.
I'm afraid you missed it - and information is somewhere way upstream by now:
https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/2016_OpenHouse_DRAFT_oct5_Rev.pdf
There are cost estimates, reasoning why certain things are not considered etc.

Those are major freeway realignment alternatives, with large scale urban right-of-way acquisitions, where such costs are quite conceivable.

If I lived there, I would most likely oppose such a project, for both cost issues and environmental impact issues.

Again -- rebuild or replace that 0.9 mile viaduct on its current alignment.  No new right-of-way acquisition.
Existing road is not up to standards with sharp curves and 45 MPH speed limit. I believe there was something else...  As far as I understand, FHWA will not allow NYSDOT to grandfather in  that type of road for new project. That makes federal funding unavailable for the project, and rebuild as-is option becomes more expensive than most alternatives.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 03:05:32 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 29, 2017, 02:57:48 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 02:43:45 PM
Those are major freeway realignment alternatives, with large scale urban right-of-way acquisitions, where such costs are quite conceivable.
If I lived there, I would most likely oppose such a project, for both cost issues and environmental impact issues.
Again -- rebuild or replace that 0.9 mile viaduct on its current alignment.  No new right-of-way acquisition.
Existing road is not up to standards with sharp curves and 45 MPH speed limit. I believe there was something else...  As far as I understand, FHWA will not allow NYSDOT to grandfather in  that type of road for new project. That makes federal funding unavailable for the project, and rebuild as-is option becomes more expensive than most alternatives.

That would be a first, for FHWA to refuse to help fund a bridge rebuild project on a toll-free Interstate highway built after the 1956 FAHA, when the alternative is to either close the bridge, or to realign the highway and incur massive urban right-of-way impacts.


Edit:  I just got promoted from Expressway to Turnpike!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 29, 2017, 03:06:44 PM
adding a bit more
https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/I-81Corridor-Study.pdf
Quote
highways in the primary study area have a relatively high rate of accidents when compared to statewide averages.
....
The northbound viaduct section of I-81 has an accident rate more than three times the statewide average.
I-81 through the I-690 interchange has sections where the accident rates reach five times the statewide average
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 03:14:48 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 29, 2017, 03:06:44 PM
adding a bit more
https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/I-81Corridor-Study.pdf
Quote
highways in the primary study area have a relatively high rate of accidents when compared to statewide averages.
....
The northbound viaduct section of I-81 has an accident rate more than three times the statewide average.
I-81 through the I-690 interchange has sections where the accident rates reach five times the statewide average

What sort of remedial treatments have been proposed to address the accident problems?

(Aside from closing the highway or realigning the highway and incurring massive urban right-of-way impacts).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on October 29, 2017, 03:17:31 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 28, 2017, 12:03:07 PM
The state can't let MPOs be the sole arbiter of how to maintain Interstate highways.
Considering that the MPO process is mandated by federal law for metro areas with more than 50,000 people, I don't see how the state could affect that.  Especially since there isn't an individual pot of money just for interstate any more; it's now one eligible expenditure part of a larger program, for which many local projects are eligible.

Quote from: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 03:05:32 PM
That would be a first, for FHWA to refuse to help fund a bridge rebuild project on a toll-free Interstate highway built after the 1956 FAHA, when the alternative is to either close the bridge, or to realign the highway and incur massive urban right-of-way impacts.
The issue is that, as a replacement, it counts as "new infrastructure".  Never mind that there is a bridge there now.  And new infrastructure is required to meet current standards.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 29, 2017, 04:38:50 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 03:14:48 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 29, 2017, 03:06:44 PM
adding a bit more
https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/I-81Corridor-Study.pdf
Quote
highways in the primary study area have a relatively high rate of accidents when compared to statewide averages.
....
The northbound viaduct section of I-81 has an accident rate more than three times the statewide average.
I-81 through the I-690 interchange has sections where the accident rates reach five times the statewide average

What sort of remedial treatments have been proposed to address the accident problems?

(Aside from closing the highway or realigning the highway and incurring massive urban right-of-way impacts).
Feel free to review documents linked above. DOT considered about 8 options total.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 08:31:36 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 29, 2017, 03:17:31 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 28, 2017, 12:03:07 PM
The state can't let MPOs be the sole arbiter of how to maintain Interstate highways.
Considering that the MPO process is mandated by federal law for metro areas with more than 50,000 people, I don't see how the state could affect that.  Especially since there isn't an individual pot of money just for interstate any more; it's now one eligible expenditure part of a larger program, for which many local projects are eligible.

If an Interstate highway needs critical maintenance then an MPO should not be allowed to stand in the way of that.  Of course their concurrence should be obtained, but I would hope that they would take a reasonable approach.  Mainline Interstate highways impact motorists and commercial operators far beyond the area of their MPO region.

FWIW, in an extreme case a state could disband an irresponsible MPO and then reconstitute it.  I don't know if this has yet happened, but there are limits on their power.

Quote from: vdeane on October 29, 2017, 03:17:31 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 03:05:32 PM
That would be a first, for FHWA to refuse to help fund a bridge rebuild project on a toll-free Interstate highway built after the 1956 FAHA, when the alternative is to either close the bridge, or to realign the highway and incur massive urban right-of-way impacts.
The issue is that, as a replacement, it counts as "new infrastructure".  Never mind that there is a bridge there now.  And new infrastructure is required to meet current standards.

Not in my 43 years of working for state DOTs did I ever hear that a maintenance replacement project counts with FHWA as "new infrastructure".  There are also design exceptions provided on some projects, and FHWA does provide them.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 08:36:29 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 29, 2017, 04:38:50 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 03:14:48 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 29, 2017, 03:06:44 PM
adding a bit more
https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/I-81Corridor-Study.pdf
Quote
highways in the primary study area have a relatively high rate of accidents when compared to statewide averages.
....
The northbound viaduct section of I-81 has an accident rate more than three times the statewide average.
I-81 through the I-690 interchange has sections where the accident rates reach five times the statewide average
What sort of remedial treatments have been proposed to address the accident problems?
(Aside from closing the highway or realigning the highway and incurring massive urban right-of-way impacts).
Feel free to review documents linked above. DOT considered about 8 options total.

I don't see any option for safety improvements to the existing I-81 alignment.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 29, 2017, 09:04:00 PM
Your ideas of what should happen conflict with reality and how the federal aid process actually works in urban areas.  It doesn't matter what you think the role of the MPOs should be.  They have their actual role and you seem to not even understand that NYSDOT holds a seat in the MPO and how that seat works (differs greatly by MPO in NY).

Your ideas are therefore moot in regards to how the I-81 viaduct will actually progress and be addressed.  This thread is for what is actually happening.  You should post your own thread in some other place about how you think things should function, but never will.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on October 29, 2017, 09:47:23 PM
Quote from: BeltwayI don't see any option for safety improvements to the existing I-81 alignment.

What do you think the Viaduct replacement option is?  It's been determined that it has to go....I know from personal experience that the substructure and piers are in poor shape and rehab isn't an option.  Adding shoulders is an obvious safety improvement but would expand the width of the viaduct.  Taking out the nasty weaves between Harrison and 690 is an obvious safety improvement but can't be done without additional right-of-way.  Likewise with the 45 MPH curves and the lane drop along southbound 81 (SB 81 has only a single through lane).

Please point out which safety improvements you think could/should happen that won't break the bank or require additional width.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 10:10:47 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 29, 2017, 09:04:00 PM
Your ideas of what should happen conflict with reality and how the federal aid process actually works in urban areas.  It doesn't matter what you think the role of the MPOs should be.  They have their actual role and you seem to not even understand that NYSDOT holds a seat in the MPO and how that seat works (differs greatly by MPO in NY).
Your ideas are therefore moot in regards to how the I-81 viaduct will actually progress and be addressed.  This thread is for what is actually happening.  You should post your own thread in some other place about how you think things should function, but never will.

I have friends in the Buffalo area that I have been visiting several times a year since 2008.  Some have been trying to persuade me to move there post-retirement.

The overall handling of this project and its implications on how the state handles things, is yet another reason why I don't want to live there.

The possible removal of a segment of mainline Interstate highway, has national implications as well, and that is the reason why I care about it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on October 29, 2017, 10:17:26 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 29, 2017, 09:47:23 PM
Quote from: BeltwayI don't see any option for safety improvements to the existing I-81 alignment.

What do you think the Viaduct replacement option is?  It's been determined that it has to go....I know from personal experience that the substructure and piers are in poor shape and rehab isn't an option.  Adding shoulders is an obvious safety improvement but would expand the width of the viaduct.  Taking out the nasty weaves between Harrison and 690 is an obvious safety improvement but can't be done without additional right-of-way.  Likewise with the 45 MPH curves and the lane drop along southbound 81 (SB 81 has only a single through lane).

Please point out which safety improvements you think could/should happen that won't break the bank or require additional width.

This wins the thread.

I-81 in Syracuse is probably the most substandard section of expressway Upstate. Inspection reports have shown that the structure is in miserable shape and it is behind salvage. And then you have the SB death merge where the two heaviest movements (I-81 mainline and 690 EB - 81 SB) get reduced from 3 lanes to 1. Something needs to be done and nothing can be done in the same spot without additional width and/or removing local access.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 29, 2017, 10:27:05 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 10:10:47 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 29, 2017, 09:04:00 PM
Your ideas of what should happen conflict with reality and how the federal aid process actually works in urban areas.  It doesn't matter what you think the role of the MPOs should be.  They have their actual role and you seem to not even understand that NYSDOT holds a seat in the MPO and how that seat works (differs greatly by MPO in NY).
Your ideas are therefore moot in regards to how the I-81 viaduct will actually progress and be addressed.  This thread is for what is actually happening.  You should post your own thread in some other place about how you think things should function, but never will.

I have friends in the Buffalo area that I have been visiting several times a year since 2008.  Some have been trying to persuade me to move there post-retirement.

The overall handling of this project and its implications on how the state handles things, is yet another reason why I don't want to live there.

The possible removal of a segment of mainline Interstate highway, has national implications as well, and that is the reason why I care about it.

You're not comprehending what I'm saying, or are just being deliberately non-responsive.  You're just filling this thread with what you think should happen, when there is what is already going to happen and how it is
Quote from: cl94 on October 29, 2017, 10:17:26 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 29, 2017, 09:47:23 PM
Quote from: BeltwayI don't see any option for safety improvements to the existing I-81 alignment.

What do you think the Viaduct replacement option is?  It's been determined that it has to go....I know from personal experience that the substructure and piers are in poor shape and rehab isn't an option.  Adding shoulders is an obvious safety improvement but would expand the width of the viaduct.  Taking out the nasty weaves between Harrison and 690 is an obvious safety improvement but can't be done without additional right-of-way.  Likewise with the 45 MPH curves and the lane drop along southbound 81 (SB 81 has only a single through lane).

Please point out which safety improvements you think could/should happen that won't break the bank or require additional width.

This wins the thread.

I-81 in Syracuse is probably the most substandard section of expressway Upstate. Inspection reports have shown that the structure is in miserable shape and it is behind salvage. And then you have the SB death merge where the two heaviest movements (I-81 mainline and 690 EB - 81 SB) get reduced from 3 lanes to 1. Something needs to be done and nothing can be done in the same spot without additional width and/or removing local access.

All the recent discussion has centered on correcting Beltway's warped views of the scope of the project, the funding of it and the management of it.  I don't think we're getting through to him.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 11:05:42 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 29, 2017, 10:27:05 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 10:10:47 PM
The possible removal of a segment of mainline Interstate highway, has national implications as well, and that is the reason why I care about it.
You're not comprehending what I'm saying, or are just being deliberately non-responsive.  You're just filling this thread with what you think should happen, when there is what is already going to happen and how it is

I just now read thru the whole thread, and there is a lot of discussion back and forth about various options, the boulevard, the viaduct replacement or realignment, or a tunnel.  I don't see any definite conclusion about how to proceed.  I don't see any posted official announcements about what option has been selected or is even preferred at this time.  You can fill me in if you don't think I read it correctly.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 30, 2017, 03:49:40 AM
Quote from: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 11:05:42 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 29, 2017, 10:27:05 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 29, 2017, 10:10:47 PM
The possible removal of a segment of mainline Interstate highway, has national implications as well, and that is the reason why I care about it.
You're not comprehending what I'm saying, or are just being deliberately non-responsive.  You're just filling this thread with what you think should happen, when there is what is already going to happen and how it is

I just now read thru the whole thread, and there is a lot of discussion back and forth about various options, the boulevard, the viaduct replacement or realignment, or a tunnel.  I don't see any definite conclusion about how to proceed.  I don't see any posted official announcements about what option has been selected or is even preferred at this time.  You can fill me in if you don't think I read it correctly.
And that is the key question.
My bet it will end up with governor flipping the coin. Heads - a new study will be ordered. Tails - an additional review of old studies will be held. Landing on a rim means community grid.  Floating away in thin air - viaduct. Alliens stealing coin in flight - tunnel.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 30, 2017, 07:42:40 AM
That's fine that the thread discussed all the options that were being considered.  However, as was just pointed out, the only options still on the table are the community grid alternative or replacing the viaduct for the costs mentioned in the NYSDOT .pdf.  All other ideas are no longer officially considered.

My personal bet:  The thing will be replaced.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 30, 2017, 08:26:36 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 30, 2017, 07:42:40 AM
That's fine that the thread discussed all the options that were being considered.  However, as was just pointed out, the only options still on the table are the community grid alternative or replacing the viaduct for the costs mentioned in the NYSDOT .pdf.  All other ideas are no longer officially considered.

My personal bet:  The thing will be replaced.
With Cuomo II committing to numerous transportation projects - Tappan Zee, La Guardia, Penn station, NYC bus terminal - the big question is if anything would happen before old viaduct collapses, or all funds are already spent...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 30, 2017, 11:20:14 AM


Quote from: kalvado on October 30, 2017, 08:26:36 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 30, 2017, 07:42:40 AM
That's fine that the thread discussed all the options that were being considered.  However, as was just pointed out, the only options still on the table are the community grid alternative or replacing the viaduct for the costs mentioned in the NYSDOT .pdf.  All other ideas are no longer officially considered.

My personal bet:  The thing will be replaced.
With Cuomo II committing to numerous transportation projects - Tappan Zee, La Guardia, Penn station, NYC bus terminal - the big question is if anything would happen before old viaduct collapses, or all funds are already spent...

I don't think that is the big question.  The big question is what are the consequences of the funding mechanisms chosen for the projects.  They will all get done, but what is NY doing to the amount of its state debt and flexibility to use federal funds, when it may be pushing closer to its AC limit or limiting the remaining state funds after debt service that could be used to first instance federal funding.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 30, 2017, 11:29:59 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 30, 2017, 11:20:14 AM


Quote from: kalvado on October 30, 2017, 08:26:36 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 30, 2017, 07:42:40 AM
That's fine that the thread discussed all the options that were being considered.  However, as was just pointed out, the only options still on the table are the community grid alternative or replacing the viaduct for the costs mentioned in the NYSDOT .pdf.  All other ideas are no longer officially considered.

My personal bet:  The thing will be replaced.
With Cuomo II committing to numerous transportation projects - Tappan Zee, La Guardia, Penn station, NYC bus terminal - the big question is if anything would happen before old viaduct collapses, or all funds are already spent...

I don't think that is the big question.  The big question is what are the consequences of the funding mechanisms chosen for the projects.  They will all get done, but what is NY doing to the amount of its state debt and flexibility to use federal funds, when it may be pushing closer to its AC limit or limiting the remaining state funds after debt service that could be used to first instance federal funding.

(personal opinion emphasized)
AC limit -?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 30, 2017, 11:35:26 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 30, 2017, 07:42:40 AM
That's fine that the thread discussed all the options that were being considered.  However, as was just pointed out, the only options still on the table are the community grid alternative or replacing the viaduct for the costs mentioned in the NYSDOT .pdf.  All other ideas are no longer officially considered.
My personal bet:  The thing will be replaced.

Depends on which official body.  Per that document, the Draft Environmental Impact Statement has not yet been completed.  That means that FHWA has not yet approved the document that has a set of alternatives under consideration, which means that the FHWA has not yet agreed.  The NEPA process on this project still has a long ways to go.  Normally a set of public hearings follow the approval of a DEIS.  Then a Final EIS which contains the selected alternative is prepared by the project team, and a Record of Decision, and these need to be approved by the FHWA.  Only after the NEPA process is complete can the project be built.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on October 30, 2017, 11:54:26 AM
Quote from: Beltway on October 30, 2017, 11:35:26 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 30, 2017, 07:42:40 AM
That's fine that the thread discussed all the options that were being considered.  However, as was just pointed out, the only options still on the table are the community grid alternative or replacing the viaduct for the costs mentioned in the NYSDOT .pdf.  All other ideas are no longer officially considered.
My personal bet:  The thing will be replaced.

Depends on which official body.  Per that document, the Draft Environmental Impact Statement has not yet been completed.  That means that FHWA has not yet approved the document that has a set of alternatives under consideration, which means that the FHWA has not yet agreed.  The NEPA process on this project still has a long ways to go.  Normally a set of public hearings follow the approval of a DEIS.  Then a Final EIS which contains the selected alternative is prepared by the project team, and a Record of Decision, and these need to be approved by the FHWA.  Only after the NEPA process is complete can the project be built.

You don't understand. NYSDOT and the MPO have already given the thumbs-down to all but replace and community grid due to cost. Tunnel will be insanely expensive, especially with the region's geography. FHWA doesn't have a huge say in the alternative process outside of the MPO. I know that because I worked at an MPO during undergrad. A couple of the other people in this thread are at the NYSDOT head office. We're down to 2 alternatives and that is final.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 30, 2017, 12:00:01 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 30, 2017, 11:54:26 AM
Quote from: Beltway on October 30, 2017, 11:35:26 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 30, 2017, 07:42:40 AM
That's fine that the thread discussed all the options that were being considered.  However, as was just pointed out, the only options still on the table are the community grid alternative or replacing the viaduct for the costs mentioned in the NYSDOT .pdf.  All other ideas are no longer officially considered.
My personal bet:  The thing will be replaced.
Depends on which official body.  Per that document, the Draft Environmental Impact Statement has not yet been completed.  That means that FHWA has not yet approved the document that has a set of alternatives under consideration, which means that the FHWA has not yet agreed.  The NEPA process on this project still has a long ways to go.  Normally a set of public hearings follow the approval of a DEIS.  Then a Final EIS which contains the selected alternative is prepared by the project team, and a Record of Decision, and these need to be approved by the FHWA.  Only after the NEPA process is complete can the project be built.
You don't understand. NYSDOT and the MPO have already given the thumbs-down to all but replace and community grid due to cost. Tunnel will be insanely expensive, especially with the region's geography. FHWA doesn't have a huge say in the alternative process outside of the MPO. I know that because I worked at an MPO during undergrad. A couple of the other people in this thread are at the NYSDOT head office. We're down to 2 alternatives and that is final.

You don't understand.  The FHWA could refuse to approve the DEIS. The FHWA could refuse to provide federal funding for anything on this project.  Not saying that they will or that they should, but it is possible if they don't agree with the process.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 30, 2017, 12:19:20 PM


Quote from: Beltway on October 30, 2017, 12:00:01 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 30, 2017, 11:54:26 AM
Quote from: Beltway on October 30, 2017, 11:35:26 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 30, 2017, 07:42:40 AM
That's fine that the thread discussed all the options that were being considered.  However, as was just pointed out, the only options still on the table are the community grid alternative or replacing the viaduct for the costs mentioned in the NYSDOT .pdf.  All other ideas are no longer officially considered.
My personal bet:  The thing will be replaced.
Depends on which official body.  Per that document, the Draft Environmental Impact Statement has not yet been completed.  That means that FHWA has not yet approved the document that has a set of alternatives under consideration, which means that the FHWA has not yet agreed.  The NEPA process on this project still has a long ways to go.  Normally a set of public hearings follow the approval of a DEIS.  Then a Final EIS which contains the selected alternative is prepared by the project team, and a Record of Decision, and these need to be approved by the FHWA.  Only after the NEPA process is complete can the project be built.
You don't understand. NYSDOT and the MPO have already given the thumbs-down to all but replace and community grid due to cost. Tunnel will be insanely expensive, especially with the region's geography. FHWA doesn't have a huge say in the alternative process outside of the MPO. I know that because I worked at an MPO during undergrad. A couple of the other people in this thread are at the NYSDOT head office. We're down to 2 alternatives and that is final.

You don't understand.  The FHWA could refuse to approve the DEIS. The FHWA could refuse to provide federal funding for anything on this project.  Not saying that they will or that they should, but it is possible if they don't agree with the process.

No, you really don't understand, despite your constant claim to the contrary.  Whatever options will go to FHWA, they will be the grid or the viaduct.  Even if FHWA rejects the DEIS or any other design document (highly unlikely for a wholesale rejection), NYSDOT and SMTC will come back with a revised document for the option they want in the end.

The process will just be tweaked as required and run through.  There is no question of federal funding eligibility in this situation, so FHWA cannot deny funding on that regard.  This thing just won't go in as a viaduct replacement and come out a tunnel or some other totally different project, as you imply.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 30, 2017, 12:26:11 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 30, 2017, 12:19:20 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 30, 2017, 12:00:01 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 30, 2017, 11:54:26 AM
You don't understand. NYSDOT and the MPO have already given the thumbs-down to all but replace and community grid due to cost. Tunnel will be insanely expensive, especially with the region's geography. FHWA doesn't have a huge say in the alternative process outside of the MPO. I know that because I worked at an MPO during undergrad. A couple of the other people in this thread are at the NYSDOT head office. We're down to 2 alternatives and that is final.
You don't understand.  The FHWA could refuse to approve the DEIS. The FHWA could refuse to provide federal funding for anything on this project.  Not saying that they will or that they should, but it is possible if they don't agree with the process.
No, you really don't understand, despite your constant claim to the contrary.  Whatever options will go to FHWA, they will be the grid or the viaduct.  Even if FHWA rejects the DEIS or any other design document (highly unlikely for a wholesale rejection), NYSDOT and SMTC will come back with a revised document for the option they want in the end.
The process will just be tweaked as required and run through.  There is no question of federal funding eligibility in this situation, so FHWA cannot deny funding on that regard.  This thing just won't go in as a viaduct replacement and come out a tunnel or some other totally different project, as you imply.

I imply nothing of the sort.  My point is that FHWA and USDOT has ways to affect the outcome of a federally-aided project.  What I object to is your attempts to shut down or limit discussion about the project.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 30, 2017, 12:45:33 PM


Quote from: Beltway on October 30, 2017, 12:26:11 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 30, 2017, 12:19:20 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 30, 2017, 12:00:01 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 30, 2017, 11:54:26 AM
You don't understand. NYSDOT and the MPO have already given the thumbs-down to all but replace and community grid due to cost. Tunnel will be insanely expensive, especially with the region's geography. FHWA doesn't have a huge say in the alternative process outside of the MPO. I know that because I worked at an MPO during undergrad. A couple of the other people in this thread are at the NYSDOT head office. We're down to 2 alternatives and that is final.
You don't understand.  The FHWA could refuse to approve the DEIS. The FHWA could refuse to provide federal funding for anything on this project.  Not saying that they will or that they should, but it is possible if they don't agree with the process.
No, you really don't understand, despite your constant claim to the contrary.  Whatever options will go to FHWA, they will be the grid or the viaduct.  Even if FHWA rejects the DEIS or any other design document (highly unlikely for a wholesale rejection), NYSDOT and SMTC will come back with a revised document for the option they want in the end.
The process will just be tweaked as required and run through.  There is no question of federal funding eligibility in this situation, so FHWA cannot deny funding on that regard.  This thing just won't go in as a viaduct replacement and come out a tunnel or some other totally different project, as you imply.

I imply nothing of the sort.  My point is that FHWA and USDOT has ways to affect the outcome of a federally-aided project.  What I object to is your attempts to shut down or limit discussion about the project.

I only wish to limit the discussion by limiting inappropriate speculation, especially when it is based upon a misunderstanding of how transportation projects are funded.

Your response to my post -- in which I confirmed the fact that the only options still viable are the grid and replacement -- made the dubious argument that FHWA could reject everything until an alternative that they prefer comes their way.  That is just a warped and inaccurate view of FHWA's role.  They ensure NEPA and design processes are compliant with regulation and that projects are eligible for funding, but they don't get into picking the actual alternative and vetoing the state in that regard.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 30, 2017, 12:47:22 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 30, 2017, 11:29:59 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 30, 2017, 11:20:14 AM


Quote from: kalvado on October 30, 2017, 08:26:36 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 30, 2017, 07:42:40 AM
That's fine that the thread discussed all the options that were being considered.  However, as was just pointed out, the only options still on the table are the community grid alternative or replacing the viaduct for the costs mentioned in the NYSDOT .pdf.  All other ideas are no longer officially considered.

My personal bet:  The thing will be replaced.
With Cuomo II committing to numerous transportation projects - Tappan Zee, La Guardia, Penn station, NYC bus terminal - the big question is if anything would happen before old viaduct collapses, or all funds are already spent...

I don't think that is the big question.  The big question is what are the consequences of the funding mechanisms chosen for the projects.  They will all get done, but what is NY doing to the amount of its state debt and flexibility to use federal funds, when it may be pushing closer to its AC limit or limiting the remaining state funds after debt service that could be used to first instance federal funding.

(personal opinion emphasized)
AC limit -?

Advance construction.  Come to think of it, the annual obligation limitation would be an issue as well that would need to be worked out with FHWA.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on October 30, 2017, 12:48:35 PM
Any discussion about alternatives that aren't replacement or community grid belongs over in fictional highways, as they aren't happening. End of story.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 30, 2017, 01:10:10 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 30, 2017, 12:48:35 PM
Any discussion about alternatives that aren't replacement or community grid belongs over in fictional highways, as they aren't happening. End of story.
And what are those alternatives? Tunnel and allowing things to fall apart - or anything else?
Second one is definitely not a fictional probability, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on October 30, 2017, 01:29:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 30, 2017, 01:10:10 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 30, 2017, 12:48:35 PM
Any discussion about alternatives that aren't replacement or community grid belongs over in fictional highways, as they aren't happening. End of story.
And what are those alternatives? Tunnel and allowing things to fall apart - or anything else?
Second one is definitely not a fictional probability, unfortunately.

"No build" is implied as a possible alternative.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on October 30, 2017, 07:33:34 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 30, 2017, 01:29:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 30, 2017, 01:10:10 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 30, 2017, 12:48:35 PM
Any discussion about alternatives that aren't replacement or community grid belongs over in fictional highways, as they aren't happening. End of story.
And what are those alternatives? Tunnel and allowing things to fall apart - or anything else?
Second one is definitely not a fictional probability, unfortunately.

"No build" is implied as a possible alternative.
No build would entail maintenance of the existing structure to provide it with additional design life. Depending on how bad the substructure is, that could end up being close in cost to a new viaduct just to try to support various pieces of the existing one while reconstructing others.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on October 30, 2017, 07:41:50 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 30, 2017, 07:33:34 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 30, 2017, 01:29:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 30, 2017, 01:10:10 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 30, 2017, 12:48:35 PM
Any discussion about alternatives that aren't replacement or community grid belongs over in fictional highways, as they aren't happening. End of story.
And what are those alternatives? Tunnel and allowing things to fall apart - or anything else?
Second one is definitely not a fictional probability, unfortunately.

"No build" is implied as a possible alternative.
No build would entail maintenance of the existing structure to provide it with additional design life. Depending on how bad the substructure is, that could end up being close in cost to a new viaduct just to try to support various pieces of the existing one while reconstructing others.

Of course, but it still needs to be included as an alternative until the end even if it is infeasible.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 31, 2017, 08:20:32 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2017, 12:37:50 AM
Quote from: cl94 on October 30, 2017, 07:41:50 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 30, 2017, 07:33:34 PM
No build would entail maintenance of the existing structure to provide it with additional design life. Depending on how bad the substructure is, that could end up being close in cost to a new viaduct just to try to support various pieces of the existing one while reconstructing others.
Of course, but it still needs to be included as an alternative until the end even if it is infeasible.

I believe they are required to weigh all the other options against a no build option. It's not really an "option" so much as a "base" from which to recommend another option (IMO).

I also find it somewhat surprising that funding is such a big issue, but I dare not bring it up, lest we start going in circles here  :spin:

Without going into funding mechanisms and who "must" or "should" do something:
1. cost of the project ($1.5-2B) is very comparable with the cost of Tappan Zee ($4B) - with later being, from my perspective, much more important project. Tappan Zee funding is still a problem, as far as I understand
2. Traffic count on the section of I-81 is 82k/day. Assuming 50 year lifespan, that is $1.36 per drive - assuming no maintenance cost. If every commuter drives 10 miles per trip, total gas tax they pay (a bit less than 1 cent per mile federal, about 1.5 cent per mile local) will cover about quarter of the cost - assuming other roads need no maintenance.
You may twist that math in different ways, but cost is still very non-negligible. You can say that costs like that are shared across wider areas, federal funding is nationwide and so on - but many areas have (or will have over next 50 years I use for project lifetime) some large projects requiring lots of money, so effectively local projects still paid by local money. And road is not the only thing paid by taxes..
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 31, 2017, 08:24:26 AM
I would hope funding for the Tappan Zee is no longer a problem since they're already building the thing. :D

Not fully aware of the Thruway's requirements, which I would think to be idiosyncratic, but at least NYSDOT has to have all construction funding lined up before letting a project (based upon their own estimates based upon PS&E, at least).   Awards can be within a certain threshold (i.e., if they come in higher than expected); becomes nigh impossible to award something beyond that threshold (nigh impossible, not impossible).

Hm.  Now I am wondering if the Comptroller has less authority over the Thruway's practices...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on October 31, 2017, 08:56:02 AM
Quote from: webny99I believe they are required to weigh all the other options against a no build option. It's not really an "option" so much as a "base" from which to recommend another option (IMO).

This is correct.  "No build" is an environmental assessment requirement, though it is always an option in any project including this one.  That said, given the condition of the viaduct it would be foolish to do so, and as Alps noted the "cost" of "no build" could (and probably would) easily become a significant figure as NYSDOT would have to significantly shore up the viaduct supports....they've already had to over the past 10-15 years.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on October 31, 2017, 09:03:13 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 31, 2017, 08:24:26 AM
Hm.  Now I am wondering if the Comptroller has less authority over the Thruway's practices...

I'm pretty sure the Comptroller has less authority. Now I'm curious. I'll have to try and ask my source on the board next time I see him.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 31, 2017, 10:14:45 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 30, 2017, 07:33:34 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 30, 2017, 01:29:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 30, 2017, 01:10:10 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 30, 2017, 12:48:35 PM
Any discussion about alternatives that aren't replacement or community grid belongs over in fictional highways, as they aren't happening. End of story.
And what are those alternatives? Tunnel and allowing things to fall apart - or anything else?
Second one is definitely not a fictional probability, unfortunately.
"No build" is implied as a possible alternative.
No build would entail maintenance of the existing structure to provide it with additional design life. Depending on how bad the substructure is, that could end up being close in cost to a new viaduct just to try to support various pieces of the existing one while reconstructing others.

In this case the No Build Alternative would logically contain a script/schedule of what would happen to the viaduct if that was selected, or occurred by default if for some reason the NEPA process did not proceed to the next stage.  This schedule could estimate when various weight restrictions would occur and the respective weight, and when large trucks would have to be excluded, and when it would have to be closed to all traffic, and what measures might be undertaken to extend the design life of the structure. 

"During the draft EIS stage all reasonable alternatives, or the reasonable range of alternatives, should be considered and discussed at a comparable level of detail to avoid any indication of a bias towards a particular alternative(s)."

"Although the "no-build alternative" (which might include short-term minor activities) might not seem reasonable, it must always be included in the analysis.  In some cases, the no-build alternative may be a reasonable alternative, especially when the impacts are great and the need is relatively minor, but generally it serves as a baseline against which the other alternatives can be compared."

https://www.environment.fhwa.dot.gov/projdev/tdmalts.asp
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: amroad17 on November 10, 2017, 10:18:16 PM
Maybe NYSDOT wants the viaduct to collapse. Then they can go to the federal government saying "Our viaduct has collapsed, we need emergency money to have it replaced!"
Who knows?  This project has been stalled for so long that by the time a decision is made, a decision may have already been made for them.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on November 10, 2017, 11:31:58 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on November 10, 2017, 10:18:16 PM
Maybe NYSDOT wants the viaduct to collapse. Then they can go to the federal government saying "Our viaduct has collapsed, we need emergency money to have it replaced!"
Who knows?  This project has been stalled for so long that by the time a decision is made, a decision may have already been made for them.

Undoubtedly the viaduct is receiving regular structural inspections, so nothing should catch them by surprise.  They would impose weight restrictions if the viaduct could not handle normal loads, and at some point might ban all large trucks.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on December 05, 2017, 06:21:25 PM
I thought the tunnel was dead, but I guess not:
Syracuse.com: A detailed look at 4 different ways to build a $4 billion I-81 tunnel in Syracuse (http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2017/12/i-81_tunnel_study_slideshow.html)

Also, I find it interesting that this (http://www.syracuse.com/opinion/index.ssf/2017/09/interstate_81_once_was_a_sign_of_progress_so_can_its_replacement_commentary.html) article from a former Syracuse DPW commissioner states that when I-81 was first built, the landscaped area under it actually actually won an award.

Another option for I-81 I never thought of until a week or two ago is a business route.  I've looked at Business I-40 in Winston-Salem, NC before, and it looks horribly substandard compared to modern interstates.  I wonder if the viaduct could be replaced without improvements and be redesignated as Business I-81.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on December 05, 2017, 07:42:43 PM
Doubtful...that'd still likely run 10 digits.  While it wouldn't need to be up to Interstate standards, it would still need to be brought up to more modern standards.  And all the bypass requirements of the "Community Grid" alternative (i.e. rerouting mainline I-81 to I-481) would still need to be built for I-81 through traffic.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 06, 2017, 06:06:12 PM
Or maybe we could do what is most likely to happen IMHO, wait for the Interstate 81 viaduct to collapse like New York City's West Side Highway did in 1973, and then do something about it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on December 06, 2017, 09:30:05 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 06, 2017, 06:06:12 PM
Or maybe we could do what is most likely to happen IMHO, wait for the Interstate 81 viaduct to collapse like New York City's West Side Highway did in 1973, and then do something about it.

The first step would be to impose weight restrictions, which could periodically increase to where large trucks are prohibited.  That would increase the lifespan of the bridges.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on December 07, 2017, 08:28:54 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 06, 2017, 06:06:12 PM
Or maybe we could do what is most likely to happen IMHO, wait for the Interstate 81 viaduct to collapse like New York City's West Side Highway did in 1973, and then do something about it.
Yes, that is not an unlikely scenario. But what's next? I suspect after a few months businesses would adapt (aka move to other states), through traffic would choose other routes, and debate would continue for another decade, now with less sense of urgency.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: DJStephens on December 10, 2017, 04:30:58 PM
Quote from: Michael on December 05, 2017, 06:21:25 PM
I thought the tunnel was dead, but I guess not:
Syracuse.com: A detailed look at 4 different ways to build a $4 billion I-81 tunnel in Syracuse (http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2017/12/i-81_tunnel_study_slideshow.html)

Also, I find it interesting that this (http://www.syracuse.com/opinion/index.ssf/2017/09/interstate_81_once_was_a_sign_of_progress_so_can_its_replacement_commentary.html) article from a former Syracuse DPW commissioner states that when I-81 was first built, the landscaped area under it actually actually won an award.

Another option for I-81 I never thought of until a week or two ago is a business route.  I've looked at Business I-40 in Winston-Salem, NC before, and it looks horribly substandard compared to modern interstates.  I wonder if the viaduct could be replaced without improvements and be redesignated as Business I-81.

The syracuse.com link shows the four "tunnel" options, along with the advantages and disadvantages of each.  It appears that certain groups are so desirous of the mile long "community spine" that these proposals have emerged.   All the tunnels seem to be deep bored and only offer two lanes in each direction.  Isn't that a bit narrow, considering the expense?  Six lanes really ought to be a minimum, in an urban setting.  What about cut and cover?  Wouldn't that be far cheaper, even considering ROW acquisition that would need to be done?   Of course, ROW acquisition for an urban arterial these days is pretty much a non-starter, so hence the deep bored tunnel proposals.   
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on December 10, 2017, 06:00:08 PM
Given that the only access to the portals is at the terminals, 4 lanes would be adequate for what is considered "through center Syracuse" traffic.  Traffic to/from I-690 or going downtown would use the at-grade corridor.

Cut and cover may be cheaper, but would require severing (or severely curtailing) several critical east-west arterial streets on the east side of downtown in order to provide I-690 access and would have the same right-of-way issues as replacing the viaduct does.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Duke87 on December 10, 2017, 06:09:48 PM
Quote from: DJStephens on December 10, 2017, 04:30:58 PM
All the tunnels seem to be deep bored and only offer two lanes in each direction.  Isn't that a bit narrow, considering the expense?  Six lanes really ought to be a minimum, in an urban setting.

The existing viaduct is only two lanes each way. And that's all that the existing amount of through traffic really requires.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on December 10, 2017, 07:18:20 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 10, 2017, 06:00:08 PM
Traffic to/from I-690 or going downtown would use the at-grade corridor.
Only one of the four options has no interchange with I-690.  Orange and Green both have some form of interchange around the existing one (albeit incomplete, at least with Green, and possibly Orange too), and Blue uses the West Street interchange.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 15, 2017, 01:28:50 AM
Ten years to build!? That seems longer than it should take but what do I know. They get started on it soon!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Buffaboy on December 15, 2017, 04:50:47 AM
What? Why would they spend $4 BILLION building a tunnel in a city with a population comparable to Savannah, Georgia?

That money could be put to better use.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on December 15, 2017, 10:31:58 AM
^ Tell that to state Sen. John DeFrancisco, who is adamant that tunnel options remain on the table.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on December 15, 2017, 11:09:58 AM
Quote from: froggie on December 15, 2017, 10:31:58 AM
^ Tell that to state Sen. John DeFrancisco, who is adamant that tunnel options remain on the table.
And I do see his point. Other than being somewhat pricey, tunnel option is the best one. Bang for the buck is quite low for all of the options, though, so tunnel doesn't quite stand out on that aspect as well.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 15, 2017, 03:16:49 PM
I doubt even an Interstate 81 tunnel will ever be built. In fact, I'd be very surprised if any more road tunnels are built in the United States, after the SR-99 Alaskan Way Viaduct Tunnel is completed, although I believe that mentality should change.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on December 15, 2017, 05:42:50 PM
Quote from: kalvado on December 15, 2017, 11:09:58 AM
Quote from: froggie on December 15, 2017, 10:31:58 AM
^ Tell that to state Sen. John DeFrancisco, who is adamant that tunnel options remain on the table.
And I do see his point. Other than being somewhat pricey, tunnel option is the best one. Bang for the buck is quite low for all of the options, though, so tunnel doesn't quite stand out on that aspect as well.
Ideally every urban freeway would be in a tunnel, except for the cost.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Hurricane Rex on December 16, 2017, 03:25:23 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 15, 2017, 03:16:49 PM
I doubt even an Interstate 81 tunnel will ever be built. In fact, I'd be very surprised if any more road tunnels are built in the United States, after the SR-99 Alaskan Way Viaduct Tunnel is completed, although I believe that mentality should change.

Does freeways going under newly constructed parks over it count? I'm talking 500-1000 feet long.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on December 16, 2017, 04:11:46 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on December 16, 2017, 03:25:23 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 15, 2017, 03:16:49 PM
I doubt even an Interstate 81 tunnel will ever be built. In fact, I'd be very surprised if any more road tunnels are built in the United States, after the SR-99 Alaskan Way Viaduct Tunnel is completed, although I believe that mentality should change.

Does freeways going under newly constructed parks over it count? I'm talking 500-1000 feet long.
not if they build the park over it. he's talking bored tunnels
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Buffaboy on December 16, 2017, 04:39:43 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 15, 2017, 03:16:49 PM
I doubt even an Interstate 81 tunnel will ever be built. In fact, I'd be very surprised if any more road tunnels are built in the United States, after the SR-99 Alaskan Way Viaduct Tunnel is completed, although I believe that mentality should change.

I think Elon Musk's Boring Company will make this easier (and cheaper).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on December 16, 2017, 05:31:58 PM
Quote from: Buffaboy on December 16, 2017, 04:39:43 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 15, 2017, 03:16:49 PM
I doubt even an Interstate 81 tunnel will ever be built. In fact, I'd be very surprised if any more road tunnels are built in the United States, after the SR-99 Alaskan Way Viaduct Tunnel is completed, although I believe that mentality should change.

I think Elon Musk's Boring Company will make this easier (and cheaper).
once their antimatter borer is operational...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on December 16, 2017, 09:11:05 PM
Quote from: BuffaboyI think Elon Musk's Boring Company will make this easier (and cheaper).

Don't hold your breath...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 16, 2017, 11:00:51 PM
Has Musk released any details as to what makes his boring machines better? What is different about them? Will he use different techniques or just completely design a new type of boring machine that works better than current ones?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on December 17, 2017, 12:18:07 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 16, 2017, 11:00:51 PM
Has Musk released any details as to what makes his boring machines better? What is different about them? Will he use different techniques or just completely design a new type of boring machine that works better than current ones?
They'll be electric!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on December 17, 2017, 12:52:21 PM
Quote from: Alps on December 17, 2017, 12:18:07 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 16, 2017, 11:00:51 PM
Has Musk released any details as to what makes his boring machines better? What is different about them? Will he use different techniques or just completely design a new type of boring machine that works better than current ones?
They'll be electric!
Like this electric AC unit on gasoline powered car?
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c3/c2/f3/c3c2f3371febc50cbbd6f8ec78718a38--gas-generator-window-air-conditioner.jpg)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on December 17, 2017, 05:11:58 PM
Quote from: kalvado on December 17, 2017, 12:52:21 PM
Quote from: Alps on December 17, 2017, 12:18:07 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 16, 2017, 11:00:51 PM
Has Musk released any details as to what makes his boring machines better? What is different about them? Will he use different techniques or just completely design a new type of boring machine that works better than current ones?
They'll be electric!
Like this electric AC unit on gasoline powered car?
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c3/c2/f3/c3c2f3371febc50cbbd6f8ec78718a38--gas-generator-window-air-conditioner.jpg)

No -- just a shitload of lithium-ion batteries in well-vented containers.  I'm pretty certain one of Musk & Co.'s principal tasks in the next few years will be to find a safe place to put those suckers in a vehicle that, at the same time, looks like it's worth the $$ that'll be charged for it (at least according to one of my audio clients who works for Tesla). 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on December 17, 2017, 05:40:33 PM
Quote from: sparker on December 17, 2017, 05:11:58 PM
Quote from: kalvado on December 17, 2017, 12:52:21 PM
Quote from: Alps on December 17, 2017, 12:18:07 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 16, 2017, 11:00:51 PM
Has Musk released any details as to what makes his boring machines better? What is different about them? Will he use different techniques or just completely design a new type of boring machine that works better than current ones?
They'll be electric!
Like this electric AC unit on gasoline powered car?
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c3/c2/f3/c3c2f3371febc50cbbd6f8ec78718a38--gas-generator-window-air-conditioner.jpg)

No -- just a shitload of lithium-ion batteries in well-vented containers.  I'm pretty certain one of Musk & Co.'s principal tasks in the next few years will be to find a safe place to put those suckers in a vehicle that, at the same time, looks like it's worth the $$ that'll be charged for it (at least according to one of my audio clients who works for Tesla).
Yes, tunnel borer really has to look sexy and worth the price tag.
Imagine you're boring those tunnels with $1B worth machine - but looking at machine you cannot say it worth more than mere $900M. Of course, no state DOT can afford that!
Thinking about it, another really sexy piece of American - and state of NY - industrial superiority is this baby:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fminutes.machine.market%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F02%2FI-Lift-Ny-Floating-Crane-678x381.jpg&hash=8ffd5ec88449e8e7e34736c4f03674a8867e761d)
This "I Lift NY" crane truly justifies it price tag. Previously known as "left coast lifter" this beauty was built in chi... ok, never mind.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: PHLBOS on May 18, 2018, 05:11:32 PM
*Thread bump*

I saw this commentary today on FB opposing the removal of I-81 in the Syracuse area & thought I'd share it here.

DeWitt supervisor: Keep I-81 through downtown Syracuse (Commentary) (http://www.syracuse.com/opinion/index.ssf/2018/05/dewitt_supervisor_keep_i-81_through_downtown_syracuse_commentary.html)

Quote from: Opening Paragraph from Syracuse.com commentaryRegarding DeWitt Town Councilor Kerin Rigney's commentary "The suburban case for the community grid" (Jan. 29, 2018), my view -- and that of majority of the DeWitt Town Board -- is that we oppose any plan that eliminates the north-south connection of Interstate 81 through the city of Syracuse. It is our considered opinion that converting Interstate 481 into I-81 will be detrimental to DeWitt neighborhoods, and our community as a whole, due to significantly increased air and noise pollution, as well as increased traffic on I-481 and also on our secondary town roads.

Nested in the article is the August 22, 2016
DeWitt Town Board Resolution
Motion by Councilor Young, seconded by Councilor Frank.
MEMORIALIZING THE INTENT OF THE TOWN BOARD OF THE TOWN OF DeWITT, COUNTY OF
ONONDAGA, REGARDING THE NEED TO MAINTAIN THE EXISTING ALIGNMENT OF INTERSTATE
81 THROUGH SYRACUSE


IMHO, it's a welcome change to hear from those (outside of the engineering and/or roadgeek community) who support keeping I-81 in Syracuse.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on May 21, 2018, 11:35:01 AM
^ DeWitt is along I-481, so one could argue that they're slightly biased on the issue and that it's no surprise they're opposed to anything that would add traffic to I-481.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: PHLBOS on May 21, 2018, 01:30:50 PM
^^Conversely, one could say that those advocating I-81's removal are also biased too.  The bottom line here is that any highway project, be it construction or removal (in this case), has a much wider impact than just the immediate corridor location.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Duke87 on May 23, 2018, 12:06:28 AM
This does generally jive with the understanding I've gotten from talking to coworkers from the area though. Folks downtown tend to want I-81 removed. Folks in the suburbs... mostly do not.

Naturally, the proponents of removal are the people who experience most of the viaduct's negative impacts while finding it minimally beneficial, and the opponents of removal are the people who experience the viaduct's benefits without particularly seeing any negative impacts.

So, self-interest all around, as you'd expect.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 24, 2018, 03:24:30 PM
How many years before this is resolved? 5? 10? 50? When the sun becomes a red giant? This is dragging on way too long.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 24, 2018, 04:19:01 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 24, 2018, 03:24:30 PM
How many years before this is resolved? 5? 10? 50? When the sun becomes a red giant? This is dragging on way too long.
No, much sooner. 18 months after the old structure collapses.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on May 24, 2018, 08:31:22 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 24, 2018, 03:24:30 PM
How many years before this is resolved? 5? 10? 50? When the sun becomes a red giant? This is dragging on way too long.
Probably the heat death of the universe.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 24, 2018, 09:02:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 24, 2018, 08:31:22 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 24, 2018, 03:24:30 PM
How many years before this is resolved? 5? 10? 50? When the sun becomes a red giant? This is dragging on way too long.
Probably the heat death of the universe.

Well after the red giant phase ... when the Sun becomes a white dwarf.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on February 06, 2019, 04:39:47 PM
I just saw an article (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/02/architect-resurrects-i-81-central-park-proposal-adds-sailboat-bridge.html) on Syracuse.com, and it has a good picture of what I've imagined for a viaduct replacement:
(https://i.syracuse.com/resizer/JwRnucOFT6Ry9pY4dFyN5IQq2Dg=/960x0/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-advancelocal/public/ZXZ46EQ6M5DSFOVQLW7KOOICMI.JPG)

Something interesting about the picture is the curved ramps right next to the tower.  I've been having trouble imagining how the end of a cable-stayed bridge would tie into the I-81/I-690 interchange, and this is an interesting solution.  I've imagined just a single level bridge, and I don't know how hard it would be to adapt the design to a single deck.

There's also a picture of the Zakim Bridge in Boston at the beginning of the article, which is what I've thought of all along as a bridge that could be used as a base design for a bridge in Syracuse.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Bobby5280 on February 08, 2019, 05:19:26 PM
A cable-stay bridge as a replacement for an ordinary elevated 4-lane freeway just a mile long? That seems like costly overkill.

Elevated urban freeways are not popular. I think part of the problem is the design of the bridges. Elevated urban freeways are often very clunky, ugly and industrial looking. If project engineers were able to use state of the art bridge building techniques they might be able to design something that isn't an eye sore. A cast-segmental method could be used to create a more elegant, modern looking freeway with longer and more fluid-looking spans. There would be far fewer bridge pylons yielding a more open look to it. Incorporate artful touches to the bridge structures. Add landscaping and other green touches where possible. The aging I-81/I-690 interchange could be re-built using the same methods.

None of this would be cheap. But it would be a hell of a lot less expensive than building deep bore tunnels. It might even be cheaper than building a below grade cut and cover freeway with a deck park on top.

I think it would be bad idea to sever I-81 in downtown Syracuse. The downtown area has certain things going for it, but if they make it harder for people out in suburbs like Liverpool or Cicero to visit downtown those people will just stay out in the suburbs.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on February 08, 2019, 05:45:40 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 08, 2019, 05:19:26 PM
A cable-stay bridge as a replacement for an ordinary elevated 4-lane freeway just a mile long? That seems like costly overkill.

Elevated urban freeways are not popular. I think part of the problem is the design of the bridges. Elevated urban freeways are often very clunky, ugly and industrial looking. If project engineers were able to use state of the art bridge building techniques they might be able to design something that isn't an eye sore. A cast-segmental method could be used to create a more elegant, modern looking freeway with longer and more fluid-looking spans. There would be far fewer bridge pylons yielding a more open look to it. Incorporate artful touches to the bridge structures. Add landscaping and other green touches where possible. The aging I-81/I-690 interchange could be re-built using the same methods.

None of this would be cheap. But it would be a hell of a lot less expensive than building deep bore tunnels. It might even be cheaper than building a below grade cut and cover freeway with a deck park on top.

I think it would be bad idea to sever I-81 in downtown Syracuse. The downtown area has certain things going for it, but if they make it harder for people out in suburbs like Liverpool or Cicero to visit downtown those people will just stay out in the suburbs.

Great. But few things to consider.
1. NY has no money for this. In fact, there was a huge problem putting together $4B for Tappan Zee replacement - a bridge on toll road with a lot of traffic, with much more visibility. There should be some federal funding for a free 2DI, though, but not for something extravagant. 
This is a much lower profile than Tappan Zee, but cost is close.
2.  Right of way, and groups hell bent on protecting existing slums. Existing road has no ROW even to rebuild as-is to new standards.
3. Downtown folks are sure that the road is the only thing standing between them and wealth. You know, separating communities, encouraging  everything bad and discouraging everything good. SO nothing remotely similar to above ground highway will be acceptable.

It is a hot potato nobody wants to own. Can will be kicked for a few more miles down the road, and then some. Old structure will be there until it collapses. Hopefully during 10784th community meeting on replacement, and hopefully directly on the crowd attending that meeting. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: NoGoodNamesAvailable on February 08, 2019, 07:02:31 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 08, 2019, 05:45:40 PM
Great. But few things to consider.

. . .

2.  Right of way, and groups hell bent on protecting existing slums. Existing road has no ROW even to rebuild as-is to new standards.

3. Downtown folks are sure that the road is the only thing standing between them and wealth. You know, separating communities, encouraging  everything bad and discouraging everything good. SO nothing remotely similar to above ground highway will be acceptable.

It is a hot potato nobody wants to own. Can will be kicked for a few more miles down the road, and then some. Old structure will be there until it collapses. Hopefully during 10784th community meeting on replacement, and hopefully directly on the crowd attending that meeting.

Check out downtown Syracuse around the I-81 corridor in 1956, then in 1976 (https://www.historicaerials.com/viewer), and tell me with a straight face that the highway had nothing to do with the creation of the "slums" you're talking about. Or have a chat with some of the thousands of people in upstate NY whose neighborhoods benefited from "slum clearance" and highway building back in the mid-20th century and see how much they appreciated it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on February 08, 2019, 08:08:55 PM
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on February 08, 2019, 07:02:31 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 08, 2019, 05:45:40 PM
Great. But few things to consider.

. . .

2.  Right of way, and groups hell bent on protecting existing slums. Existing road has no ROW even to rebuild as-is to new standards.

3. Downtown folks are sure that the road is the only thing standing between them and wealth. You know, separating communities, encouraging  everything bad and discouraging everything good. SO nothing remotely similar to above ground highway will be acceptable.

It is a hot potato nobody wants to own. Can will be kicked for a few more miles down the road, and then some. Old structure will be there until it collapses. Hopefully during 10784th community meeting on replacement, and hopefully directly on the crowd attending that meeting.

Check out downtown Syracuse around the I-81 corridor in 1956, then in 1976 (https://www.historicaerials.com/viewer), and tell me with a straight face that the highway had nothing to do with the creation of the "slums" you're talking about. Or have a chat with some of the thousands of people in upstate NY whose neighborhoods benefited from "slum clearance" and highway building back in the mid-20th century and see how much they appreciated it.
I am not sure what I am supposed to see.. Would the city be better off without a highway? Maybe yes-  or maybe not. But it is not relevant to what is going on in 2019. Whatever city's problems are, removing highway is not going to solve them. Creating new problems by whatever new approach is choosen? Good question.
We have a certain situation at hand, and there is a need for a single major decision. I am not sure saving old buildings is a good objective for such projects - it may be cheaper to build anew. But - whatever comes out of this, 50 years from now,  same questions we are asking today are going to be asked again: why was it done in such a way? Which problems those decision created? WHo is to blame?
Unfortunately my crystal ball is out of comission, so I have no answers. But I do see faults in ongoing process, no crystal ball required.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on February 08, 2019, 08:32:33 PM
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on February 08, 2019, 07:02:31 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 08, 2019, 05:45:40 PM
Great. But few things to consider.

. . .

2.  Right of way, and groups hell bent on protecting existing slums. Existing road has no ROW even to rebuild as-is to new standards.

3. Downtown folks are sure that the road is the only thing standing between them and wealth. You know, separating communities, encouraging  everything bad and discouraging everything good. SO nothing remotely similar to above ground highway will be acceptable.

It is a hot potato nobody wants to own. Can will be kicked for a few more miles down the road, and then some. Old structure will be there until it collapses. Hopefully during 10784th community meeting on replacement, and hopefully directly on the crowd attending that meeting.

Check out downtown Syracuse around the I-81 corridor in 1956, then in 1976 (https://www.historicaerials.com/viewer), and tell me with a straight face that the highway had nothing to do with the creation of the "slums" you're talking about. Or have a chat with some of the thousands of people in upstate NY whose neighborhoods benefited from "slum clearance" and highway building back in the mid-20th century and see how much they appreciated it.
Racist dog whistles abound.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on February 09, 2019, 08:52:59 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 08, 2019, 08:32:33 PM
Racist dog whistles abound.
It is easy to pull rasist card - especially when there is no substance behind that. My pet peeve is "historic preservation" - when there is money for bronze plaque, but no money for upkeep, and no takers for all the limitations imposed.
Lets take a close look at what is to be the pain here.
Exhibit 1:
(https://image.syracuse.com/home/syr-media/width960/img/post-standard/photo/2016/05/31/nysyr-20141121-155456-smithjpg-8a59a18dc0268faf.jpg)
160+ years eyesore. Definitely worth saving, right? This seems to be the #1 in lists of affected places. Owner is a white man, BTW.
There are a few more. Like really gorgeous building used for sex offenders housing (OK, I guess nobody else wants to live facing active interstate) - and I wonder what the building condition is.
Running through the city may or may not be a good idea, but there is a lot of flawed reasoning on all sides. Like calling race card when no race is in the game.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on February 10, 2019, 01:29:02 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2019, 08:52:59 PM
Running through the city may or may not be a good idea, but there is a lot of flawed reasoning on all sides. Like calling race card when no race is in the game.


The words "slum clearance" imply "get 'those people' away from 'my people'". I will always react to that.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on February 10, 2019, 07:27:21 AM
Quote from: Alps on February 10, 2019, 01:29:02 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2019, 08:52:59 PM
Running through the city may or may not be a good idea, but there is a lot of flawed reasoning on all sides. Like calling race card when no race is in the game.


The words "slum clearance" imply "get 'those people' away from 'my people'". I will always react to that.
Well, looks like its a good idea to expand the answer even further.
I think that whatever comes out of this project will be a strong statement about the future of the region, and possibly define that future. A very big statement for 2 miles of a highway, huh?
Basically, Syracuse area is not doing well to say the least. Rust belt, enough said. There are some interesting companies - Crucible, Inficon (just looked up - they now list Switzerland as their headquarters locations.. yikes...), but manufacturing companies are not a powerhouse it used to be.
City population is shrinking, the metropolitan statistical area is shrinking (fastest shrink among top 100 MSAs), the state is shrinking.
Two prominent leaders on opposite ends of political spectrum tell people to leave the area (although in a slightly different narrative: Trump says "my people should leave for greener pastures", gov. Cuomo II says "your people should leave somewhere")
So that is a grim context of the project which costs about $5k per MSA resident.
My impression is that all the crap about "reconnecting the city" and "preserving the history" doesn't even touch the key problem: area needs jobs, badly. Some vision of future - other than "last person to leave please turn lights off". And there is no understanding of where to go.
There is a significant healthcare sector in the city, is it enough? I don't know. Large centers - Boston, NYC, Toronto - are far away. Canal and lake shipping, which were a big booster, are not there. No big company in their right mind would go to Syracuse. Local agriculture can do only that much. Finger lakes tourism (including wine trails) is only that big, as well as Cornell outreach. Salt mining and NYC landfill don't sound as a solution.
Cutting transportation capacity to whatever is in the center, IMHO, seals city decay as a done fact for today and into the future. Cutting the road through the city center doesn't do anything to help while spending shitloads of money. So I am totally glad my opinion doesn't count here as all choices are depressing. If there is any hope highway would help, 30-40 properties in the city center may be a tiny price to pay... and that is a big "if"
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Duke87 on February 11, 2019, 12:20:36 AM
Quote from: Alps on February 10, 2019, 01:29:02 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2019, 08:52:59 PM
Running through the city may or may not be a good idea, but there is a lot of flawed reasoning on all sides. Like calling race card when no race is in the game.


The words "slum clearance" imply "get 'those people' away from 'my people'". I will always react to that.

I could be reading this wrong but the reference to "slum clearance" by NoGoodNamesAvailable seemed to be sarcastic, i.e. berating that line of thinking.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on April 01, 2019, 01:03:16 PM
Today I found out what will be done to replace I-81 in Syracuse.  As you know, the state has been deciding between a rebuilt viaduct, a tunnel, or a "community grid".  After consulting with some physicists, it has been decided to do BOTH a rebuilt viaduct and the community grid!  The corridor will be held in a state of quantum superposition, allowing for both alternatives to exist simultaneously.  It will be known as the Erwin Rudolf Josef Alexander Schrödinger Corridor.

I believe this will become the first time quantum mechanics has been applied to road design in the United States.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 01, 2019, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 01, 2019, 01:03:16 PM
Today I found out what will be done to replace I-81 in Syracuse.  As you know, the state has been deciding between a rebuilt viaduct, a tunnel, or a "community grid".  After consulting with some physicists, it has been decided to do BOTH a rebuilt viaduct and the community grid!  The corridor will be held in a state of quantum superposition, allowing for both alternatives to exist simultaneously.  It will be known as the Erwin Rudolf Josef Alexander Schrödinger Corridor.

I believe this will become the first time quantum mechanics has been applied to road design in the United States.
THat is pretty much what was in the plan for couple of years -  superposition of both options (e.g. no real one ) with equal probability for a observer (from distant future) to observe one.
However, since MUTCD has no proper way to designate such quantum objects, no vehicles will be allowed on I-81 until  said observer is located .
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on April 01, 2019, 05:53:44 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 01, 2019, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 01, 2019, 01:03:16 PM
Today I found out what will be done to replace I-81 in Syracuse.  As you know, the state has been deciding between a rebuilt viaduct, a tunnel, or a "community grid".  After consulting with some physicists, it has been decided to do BOTH a rebuilt viaduct and the community grid!  The corridor will be held in a state of quantum superposition, allowing for both alternatives to exist simultaneously.  It will be known as the Erwin Rudolf Josef Alexander Schrödinger Corridor.

I believe this will become the first time quantum mechanics has been applied to road design in the United States.
THat is pretty much what was in the plan for couple of years -  superposition of both options (e.g. no real one ) with equal probability for a observer (from distant future) to observe one.
However, since MUTCD has no proper way to designate such quantum objects, no vehicles will be allowed on I-81 until  said observer is located .

Gee whiz -- I wonder what today is?  4/1?  I'm stumped!  :spin:
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: qguy on April 02, 2019, 06:04:32 AM
Quote from: kalvado on April 01, 2019, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 01, 2019, 01:03:16 PM
Today I found out what will be done to replace I-81 in Syracuse.  As you know, the state has been deciding between a rebuilt viaduct, a tunnel, or a "community grid".  After consulting with some physicists, it has been decided to do BOTH a rebuilt viaduct and the community grid!  The corridor will be held in a state of quantum superposition, allowing for both alternatives to exist simultaneously.  It will be known as the Erwin Rudolf Josef Alexander Schrödinger Corridor.

I believe this will become the first time quantum mechanics has been applied to road design in the United States.
THat is pretty much what was in the plan for couple of years -  superposition of both options (e.g. no real one ) with equal probability for a observer (from distant future) to observe one.
However, since MUTCD has no proper way to designate such quantum objects, no vehicles will be allowed on I-81 until  said observer is located .

Having your cat and eating it too.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Verlanka on April 02, 2019, 08:16:17 AM
Quote from: kalvado on April 01, 2019, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 01, 2019, 01:03:16 PM
Today I found out what will be done to replace I-81 in Syracuse.  As you know, the state has been deciding between a rebuilt viaduct, a tunnel, or a "community grid".  After consulting with some physicists, it has been decided to do BOTH a rebuilt viaduct and the community grid!  The corridor will be held in a state of quantum superposition, allowing for both alternatives to exist simultaneously.  It will be known as the Erwin Rudolf Josef Alexander Schrödinger Corridor.

I believe this will become the first time quantum mechanics has been applied to road design in the United States.
THat is pretty much what was in the plan for couple of years -  superposition of both options (e.g. no real one ) with equal probability for a observer (from distant future) to observe one.
However, since MUTCD has no proper way to designate such quantum objects, no vehicles will be allowed on I-81 until  said observer is located .

Pretty sure that's just an April Fool's joke.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 02, 2019, 10:23:56 AM
Quote from: Verlanka on April 02, 2019, 08:16:17 AM
Quote from: kalvado on April 01, 2019, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 01, 2019, 01:03:16 PM
Today I found out what will be done to replace I-81 in Syracuse.  As you know, the state has been deciding between a rebuilt viaduct, a tunnel, or a "community grid".  After consulting with some physicists, it has been decided to do BOTH a rebuilt viaduct and the community grid!  The corridor will be held in a state of quantum superposition, allowing for both alternatives to exist simultaneously.  It will be known as the Erwin Rudolf Josef Alexander Schrödinger Corridor.

I believe this will become the first time quantum mechanics has been applied to road design in the United States.
THat is pretty much what was in the plan for couple of years -  superposition of both options (e.g. no real one ) with equal probability for a observer (from distant future) to observe one.
However, since MUTCD has no proper way to designate such quantum objects, no vehicles will be allowed on I-81 until  said observer is located .

Pretty sure that's just an April Fool's joke.
Too bad that there is a grain of truth in it: there is no clear future for the project, and my bet is on the old one collapsing before new construction starts.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on April 02, 2019, 12:43:50 PM
Quote from: Verlanka on April 02, 2019, 08:16:17 AM
Quote from: kalvado on April 01, 2019, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 01, 2019, 01:03:16 PM
Today I found out what will be done to replace I-81 in Syracuse.  As you know, the state has been deciding between a rebuilt viaduct, a tunnel, or a "community grid".  After consulting with some physicists, it has been decided to do BOTH a rebuilt viaduct and the community grid!  The corridor will be held in a state of quantum superposition, allowing for both alternatives to exist simultaneously.  It will be known as the Erwin Rudolf Josef Alexander Schrödinger Corridor.

I believe this will become the first time quantum mechanics has been applied to road design in the United States.
THat is pretty much what was in the plan for couple of years -  superposition of both options (e.g. no real one ) with equal probability for a observer (from distant future) to observe one.
However, since MUTCD has no proper way to designate such quantum objects, no vehicles will be allowed on I-81 until  said observer is located .

Pretty sure that's just an April Fool's joke.
Yeah, as far as I know, nobody has actually figured out how to put such a large object into a state of superposition, much less how to let people walk/drive through it without collapsing the wave function.

Had I decided to do a more elaborate version (which would have included writing a fake news article or press release), there would have been mention of it complicating NY's annual data submittal to FHWA due to the inability to take measurements.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on April 02, 2019, 03:14:12 PM
A rebuilt viaduct and a community grid? That might work. How long until such is constructed? 10 years? 20? 30? Sometime in the 22nd century? By then, it will probably have crumbled to dust.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on April 02, 2019, 09:38:38 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 02, 2019, 03:14:12 PM
A rebuilt viaduct and a community grid? That might work. How long until such is constructed? 10 years? 20? 30? Sometime in the 22nd century? By then, it will probably have crumbled to dust.
The joke was based on the fact that it is impossible for the two to co-exist in reality.  Note that "community grid" is a euphemism for "boulevard".

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: qguy on April 03, 2019, 06:03:47 AM
Quote from: Verlanka on April 02, 2019, 08:16:17 AM
Quote from: kalvado on April 01, 2019, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 01, 2019, 01:03:16 PM
Today I found out what will be done to replace I-81 in Syracuse.  As you know, the state has been deciding between a rebuilt viaduct, a tunnel, or a "community grid".  After consulting with some physicists, it has been decided to do BOTH a rebuilt viaduct and the community grid!  The corridor will be held in a state of quantum superposition, allowing for both alternatives to exist simultaneously.  It will be known as the Erwin Rudolf Josef Alexander Schrödinger Corridor.

I believe this will become the first time quantum mechanics has been applied to road design in the United States.
THat is pretty much what was in the plan for couple of years -  superposition of both options (e.g. no real one ) with equal probability for a observer (from distant future) to observe one.
However, since MUTCD has no proper way to designate such quantum objects, no vehicles will be allowed on I-81 until  said observer is located .

Pretty sure that's just an April Fool's joke.

Thanks for spelling that out. Otherwise none of us would've known.  ;-)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Mergingtraffic on April 22, 2019, 06:44:44 PM
"Community Grid" option chosen as preferred alternative. The bike/ped movements are gathering in strength.  I-81 going away in downtown and expect to see other cities use Syracuse as an example of "hey if they can do it so can we."

https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/library

Read the reader comments on any story on Syracuse.com and most people are against it.
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/04/i-81-replacement-community-grid-would-displace-parking-lots-three-businesses-but-no-homes.html
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kevinb1994 on April 22, 2019, 06:45:10 PM
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/04/exclusive-new-york-selects-community-grid-alternative-for-i-81.html?outputType=amp

Here's a news-worthy update from the Syracuse.com website. Obviously the comments are all over the place on this, to no one's surprise.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on April 22, 2019, 06:49:29 PM
Mergingtraffic, you beat me!  I was proofreading my post.

NewsChannel9: NYS DOT report favors 'Community Grid' for I-81 replacement (https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-news/nys-dot-to-release-report-today-favoring-community-grid-for-i-81-replacement/1945013731)

I had a feeling this would be the preferred alternative.  I've mentioned before that I think it's stupid to send traffic over to I-481.  The streets in downtown can get pretty busy at times, so I think that even with improvements, it will end up being congested.

As for the historic buildings, I wonder if it's possible to move them to this area (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.049784,-76.1366983,343m/data=!3m1!1e3) since it's pretty close and there's nothing there.  Once the old bridge is taken down, it would be relatively easy to move them a few blocks.

On a side note, I wonder how many people realize that this project involves most of I-81 through Syracuse, and parts of I-690 and West Street.  People keep focusing on the viaduct, but on I-81, the project starts at the southern city line, and ends just before the bridge by Destiny USA.  The northern city line is at the end of that bridge, so with the exception of the bridge, it's literally the entire length of I-81 in Syracuse.  On I-690, the project will be between West Street and the eastern end of the I-81 interchange.  Technically, the recent Beach/Teall viaduct project was considered part of the I-81 project.  On West Street, the project involves the interchange with Genesee St/NY 5.  This is basically the original downtown construction from the late 1950s all over again.  That's a whole lot more than a single viaduct!

EDIT: I wonder what would happen if the viaduct was closed for a week as an experiment.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 22, 2019, 07:46:23 PM
OK, wake me up when last legal process ends  - or when another review is ordered
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 22, 2019, 07:47:10 PM
A lot of blabber, but I tend to think common sense will win out and a new viaduct will be built -- not right away, but eventually.

This is a major 2di used by a lot of long distance traffic and with significant regional importance. There is just no way to justify tearing it down to please a few communities at the expense of the millions of others that pass through. And it is not acceptable to compare this to any other highway removal project in history.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on April 22, 2019, 08:30:10 PM
By the time shovels hit the ground, the Syracuse metro will be 10% smaller than it is right now, which is quite a bit smaller than it was at the 2010 census. Combine this with the lack of jobs downtown and the long court fight we're looking at and a removal may result in minimal traffic increases once the thing actually closes (IF it closes).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on April 22, 2019, 08:32:41 PM
Quote from: Michael on April 22, 2019, 06:49:29 PM
EDIT: I wonder what would happen if the viaduct was closed for a week as an experiment.
Keep in mind the future includes a surface grid. Closing the viaduct without that would be much more chaotic and jammed.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Duke87 on April 22, 2019, 08:33:31 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 22, 2019, 07:47:10 PM
A lot of blabber, but I tend to think common sense will win out and a new viaduct will be built -- not right away, but eventually.

This is a major 2di used by a lot of long distance traffic and with significant regional importance. There is just no way to justify tearing it down to please a few communities at the expense of the millions of others that pass through. And it is not acceptable to compare this to any other highway removal project in history.

It's not a question of pleasing a few communities. This is what the powers that be at the state level want because it fits their grand visions of urban renewal. Note how Buffalo, Rochester, Albany, and NYC all have at least one freeway or expressway downgrade or removal project completed or in progress - it was inevitable that Syracuse was going to join the club.

Realize as well that with the way government works in New York, this decision was made behind closed doors years ago. They've just waited until now when there isn't an upcoming election and the idea has had a chance to gain some traction to publicly acknowledge it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: KEVIN_224 on April 22, 2019, 08:43:26 PM
New York City is the downgrade of I-895/Sheridan Expressway in the Bronx. Which project are you referring to for Albany?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on April 22, 2019, 08:56:26 PM
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on April 22, 2019, 06:44:44 PM
"Community Grid" option chosen as preferred alternative. The bike/ped movements are gathering in strength.  I-81 going away in downtown and expect to see other cities use Syracuse as an example of "hey if they can do it so can we."

This makes me feel like puking. 

I better keep the trash can handy...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on April 22, 2019, 09:22:09 PM
As expected, though (personally) not my preferred alternative.  Syracuse already didn't have a great freeway system, and this will only make that worse.  The western suburbs will have no good all-freeway route to get to the south.  If only the western bypass had been built.

Quote from: webny99 on April 22, 2019, 07:47:10 PM
A lot of blabber, but I tend to think common sense will win out and a new viaduct will be built -- not right away, but eventually.

This is a major 2di used by a lot of long distance traffic and with significant regional importance. There is just no way to justify tearing it down to please a few communities at the expense of the millions of others that pass through. And it is not acceptable to compare this to any other highway removal project in history.
Cuomo's been pretty anti-freeway as of late.  Have you seen how he's been with the Scajaquada and the Buffalo Skyway?  It's also the cheapest alternative, and it's not like NYSDOT is rolling in cash right now.  I wouldn't be surprised if the constant tunnel re-evaluations were just to push the decision to a more politically convenient time.

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on April 22, 2019, 08:43:26 PM
New York City is the downgrade of I-895/Sheridan Expressway in the Bronx. Which project are you referring to for Albany?
Probably the Albany Skyway (removing the US 9 north ramp at I-787 and turning it into a park similar to NYC's high line), though there is desire among some advocates for a complete removal of I-787.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on April 22, 2019, 09:31:08 PM
I really hope this is reconsidered.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 22, 2019, 09:48:16 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 22, 2019, 09:22:09 PM
As expected, though (personally) not my preferred alternative. 
Which one you prefer? I see only very bad and even worse options

Quote from: vdeane on April 22, 2019, 09:22:09 PM
Probably the Albany Skyway (removing the US 9 north ramp at I-787 and turning it into a park similar to NYC's high line), though there is desire among some advocates for a complete removal of I-787.
Maybe NY787 in Cohoes? It is in full swing...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Revive 755 on April 22, 2019, 10:45:27 PM
It looks like the boulevard replacing the viaduct would lack dedicated left turn lanes at a lot of intersections and instead used shared thru-left turn lanes - good way to get rear end crashes and increase congestion.  Where there are left turn lanes, they appear to have a very negative offset - good way to get the left turning vehicle hit by an opposing through vehicle.  Yet this is called "safe and efficient"?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on April 22, 2019, 10:52:36 PM
Today's announcement was one of the stupidest things I've read about in New York in years. Glad I moved out. Now, if I could just figure out how to change my username here on this board doohickey.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on April 22, 2019, 10:52:58 PM
On the bright side, Interstate 81 is going to get all new mileage based exits!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Anthony_JK on April 23, 2019, 03:07:29 AM
John Norquist gets his dream of an Interstate removal finally. And Syracuse will be much the worst for it.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 23, 2019, 08:24:30 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on April 22, 2019, 08:33:31 PM
It's not a question of pleasing a few communities. This is what the powers that be at the state level want because it fits their grand visions of urban renewal. Note how Buffalo, Rochester, Albany, and NYC all have at least one freeway or expressway downgrade or removal project completed or in progress - it was inevitable that Syracuse was going to join the club.

My whole point is that I-81 is not even remotely comparable to the Inner Loop or anything else that has been torn down. You can't say with a straight face that anyone in Syracuse or Buffalo - or even the Rochester suburbs! - actually cared about the removal of the Inner Loop. I-81, on the other hand, serves a significant statewide purpose and carries a lot of long distance traffic, and people from Rochester, Binghamton, Watertown, actually do care about the inconvenience and increased travel times they would face if the viaduct was torn down.

In short, when a project affects the general motoring public, including a high number people from outside the area, the number of interested parties multiplies, and my guess is that in this case none of those additional parties are in favor of removal. So to ignore the interests of the rest of the state as if the project only affects a few neighborhoods, i.e. treating it like the Inner Loop project, is incredibly foolish and short sighted, and I hope that will be reflected in the feedback received by the state.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on April 23, 2019, 09:09:07 AM
To be fair...given that there's only in the neighborhood of 6,000 through vehicles coming from the south, and only 2,000 going between the south and the west, the concerns about "through traffic" and "west suburbs to south suburbs" on this form are a little overblown.

That said, I do think there are some changes that need to be made to the "community grid" alternative to make it more feasible.  Revive mentioned the lack of left turn lanes on the envisioned Arnold St and I agree.  I also agree with val on some sort of southwestern bypass arterial although I don't think it necessarily needs to be controlled-access.  And there should be a consistent 6 lanes from 690 to the Thruway along 481 instead of the proposed auxiliary lanes that don't go through the Kirkville Rd interchange.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 23, 2019, 10:46:09 AM
Quote from: froggie on April 23, 2019, 09:09:07 AM
To be fair...given that there's only in the neighborhood of 6,000 through vehicles coming from the south, and only 2,000 going between the south and the west, the concerns about "through traffic" and "west suburbs to south suburbs" on this form are a little overblown.
I still wonder where these numbers came from. I can see 20k traffic south of Elmira, well south of Syracuse to filter out Ithaca/Cornell to Syracuse (I guess mostly mall and airport, north of proposed change); and 15k south of Watertown, going down to 6k at the border.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on April 23, 2019, 12:49:41 PM
I've read through the thread and seen a mixed response to this regard, but like the I-375 removal in Detroit, again I'll ask:

Is this really going to be that consequential a change, or just roadgeeks upset about Interstates being removed and/or feeling like the evil urbanists are winning?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: hotdogPi on April 23, 2019, 01:00:25 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 23, 2019, 12:49:41 PM
I've read through the thread and seen a mixed response to this regard, but like the I-375 removal in Detroit, again I'll ask:

Is this really going to be that consequential a change, or just roadgeeks upset about Interstates being removed and/or feeling like the evil urbanists are winning?

I know that roadgeeks often complain about minor things like numbering issues. However, this is the actual removal of a through route.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 23, 2019, 01:04:58 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 23, 2019, 12:49:41 PM
I've read through the thread and seen a mixed response to this regard, but like the I-375 removal in Detroit, again I'll ask:

Is this really going to be that consequential a change, or just roadgeeks upset about Interstates being removed and/or feeling like the evil urbanists are winning?
As far as I understand, this is indeed a very significant change. This is a highway with 100k/day traffic feeding city center from southern suburbs. Dissipating that traffic will be difficult, bypass road which is proposed to be used as new 81 is already very buzy
With that, there is really no good option here which avoids pissing off large group of people.
Not very modest of me, but look at my reply #280 on page 12 of this thread. I think I am realistically pessimistic.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on April 23, 2019, 01:12:48 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 23, 2019, 12:49:41 PM
Is this really going to be that consequential a change, or just roadgeeks upset about Interstates being removed and/or feeling like the evil urbanists are winning?

I don't think it's going to be as crazy as roadgeeks think if a couple of minor changes are made to the proposal. Specifically, a continuous 6 lanes along current I-481 from the south end to the Thruway and removal of tolls along the Thruway within the Syracuse metro to encourage traffic between the south and west to avoid 690. Neither of these would be particularly hard to accomplish, especially with the impending AET conversion. Like it or not, Syracuse is hemorrhaging population like a natural disaster happened. In fact, the only medium-large city that has lost population faster since the 2000 census is New Orleans (for obvious reasons). Frankly, it does not NEED a freeway system designed for almost a million people as was originally proposed for the region.

Regardless, we're looking at several years before shovels even hit the ground and it's very possible that state leadership will change before that point. This is only a draft EIS and there are going to be years of court battles over this. The rich people in the suburbs and the rich developer who owns the mall formerly known as Carousel Center are vehemently opposed to removal/rerouting. The trucking lobby won't like this, either. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if it's another 10+ years before I-81 is formally rerouted, IF it ever happens. If I were a betting man, I'd put money on the viaduct falling down before they have a chance to complete the reroute/reconstruction.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 23, 2019, 01:17:17 PM
Quote from: cl94 on April 23, 2019, 01:12:48 PMIf I were a betting man, I'd put money on the viaduct falling down before they have a chance to complete the reroute/reconstruction.
Too bad I cannot take your bet as I also think so.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on April 23, 2019, 01:59:07 PM
Quote from: cl94 on April 23, 2019, 01:12:48 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 23, 2019, 12:49:41 PM
Is this really going to be that consequential a change, or just roadgeeks upset about Interstates being removed and/or feeling like the evil urbanists are winning?

I don't think it's going to be as crazy as roadgeeks think if a couple of minor changes are made to the proposal. Specifically, a continuous 6 lanes along current I-481 from the south end to the Thruway and removal of tolls along the Thruway within the Syracuse metro to encourage traffic between the south and west to avoid 690. Neither of these would be particularly hard to accomplish, especially with the impending AET conversion. Like it or not, Syracuse is hemorrhaging population like a natural disaster happened. In fact, the only medium-large city that has lost population faster since the 2000 census is New Orleans (for obvious reasons). Frankly, it does not NEED a freeway system designed for almost a million people as was originally proposed for the region.
That would help a LOT, though unfortunately the only proposal I've seen is for limited aux lanes around exit 5.  Possibly also widen the Thruway in the area too.

Honestly, if the western bypass had been built, I wouldn't care as much.  I am, however, used to being able to get around, and out, of a metro area on an efficient all-freeway route.  Syracuse isn't very good with that as it is - Liverpool requires taking the Thruway for at least some trips, the areas to the north aren't really freeway accessible, and with I-81 gone, Camillus, Fairmount, and Baldwinsville will be unable to head to Binghamton and points south without either taking a surface boulevard or going way out of their way to current I-481.

There's also the precedent.  As far as I know, this would be the first instance of a through freeway being removed in the country.  Everything else has been a spur.  It will only embolden the activists further, and I don't seem them stopping until every city is like Winnipeg (which has no freeways of any kind).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on April 23, 2019, 02:56:39 PM
And Winnipeg makes do just fine with a great metro system, freeways and expressways that serve the metro quite well, and a central city that's far more impressive than what most US cities can dream about.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: oscar on April 23, 2019, 03:11:20 PM
Quote from: seicer on April 23, 2019, 02:56:39 PM
And Winnipeg makes do just fine with a great metro system, freeways and expressways that serve the metro quite well, and a central city that's far more impressive than what most US cities can dream about.

Plus a thoroughly painful west-east route (TCH 1) into and through the central city, though there is a good freeway bypass to the south of the city (TCH 100) and an expressway bypass to the north (MB 101) for through travelers. (Which would not include people from elsewhere in the province, or outside the province, who need to do in-person business with government offices in downtown Winnipeg.) Under the proposal as it now stands, Syracuse would have just one bypass to replace the removed segment of I-81.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 23, 2019, 03:16:47 PM
Quote from: froggie on April 23, 2019, 09:09:07 AM
To be fair...given that there's only in the neighborhood of 6,000 through vehicles coming from the south, and only 2,000 going between the south and the west, the concerns about "through traffic" and "west suburbs to south suburbs" on this form are a little overblown.

Maybe, but through and long distance traffic on other major freeway removals to date has been, for the most part, zero. So 6,000 per day is a big deal in that context. That's almost 2.2 million vehicles per year, and I'd guess at least 220,000 individual vehicles, i.e. people on non-recurring trips as opposed to the same cars every day.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 23, 2019, 03:35:56 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 23, 2019, 01:59:07 PM
I am, however, used to being able to get around, and out, of a metro area on an efficient all-freeway route.

Thanks to growing up in Rochester, no doubt.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: vdeane on April 23, 2019, 01:59:07 PM
There's also the precedent.  As far as I know, this would be the first instance of a through freeway being removed in the country.  Everything else has been a spur.  It will only embolden the activists further, and I don't seem them stopping until every city is like Winnipeg (which has no freeways of any kind).

Parts of the TCH 100 / Perimeter Hwy are now full freeway, but said segments are far removed from the city center, which is a nightmare. And yeah, if every city was like Winnipeg, the world would be a terrible place, for a multitude of reasons which I won't go into at this time.   ;-)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 23, 2019, 03:49:08 PM
Quote from: seicer on April 23, 2019, 02:56:39 PM
And Winnipeg makes do just fine with a great metro system, freeways and expressways that serve the metro quite well, and a central city that's far more impressive than what most US cities can dream about.

Please tell me this is sarcasm. Of any large city I've been to, Winnipeg is among the worst to navigate, especially at rush hour. Every single through route is crowded, laden with stoplights and massive inefficient intersections, and basically just a slow-motion nauseating nightmare (to put it bluntly!!  :-D)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on April 23, 2019, 04:37:59 PM
Does anyone think the people of Syracuse might unite to prevent the Community Grid from being constructed? Or, as I suspect, city residents will deliver a collective "meh" to this project, and the Community Grid will be constructed as proposed? I know this wasn't a final decision, but it seems set in stone to me.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 23, 2019, 07:40:50 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 23, 2019, 04:37:59 PM
Does anyone think the people of Syracuse might unite to prevent the Community Grid from being constructed? Or, as I suspect, city residents will deliver a collective "meh" to this project, and the Community Grid will be constructed as proposed? I know this wasn't a final decision, but it seems set in stone to me.
Guess what? like many older areas, Syracuse had a period of suburb flee, so city itself is on a poor side of spectrum, while wealth is in the suburbia.
And the highway is used a lot to drive between suburban home and city job. So the city doesn't benefit from highway that much (or at least people think so).
Accordingly, there is a lot of "it's our city, we got to decide! Move in or get lost!" - "but it is everyone's (read: mostly out of the city) money, we have something to say!"
Which, of course, doesn't make the situation any easier to resolve.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on April 23, 2019, 09:02:53 PM
Found an article that includes actual details about what will be built: https://expo.syracuse.com/news/g66l-2019/04/8c50a10c522772/how-would-community-grid-work-check-out-maps-from-interstate-81-report.html

Looks like the upgrades to I-481 got SLIGHTLY more extensive, with aux lanes in both directions between I-690 and exit 5.  Still no widened lanes through exit 5 or SB between 6 and 5, unfortunately (I'd also add in aux lanes between 6 and 7, both directions).

Very disappointed to see that the full interchange between I-690 and the remainder of I-81 was removed.  The lack of access between Camillus/Fairmount and the north is a major flaw in Syracuse's freeway system, which is now not being fixed.

(personal opinion)

Quote from: webny99 on April 23, 2019, 03:35:56 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 23, 2019, 01:59:07 PM
I am, however, used to being able to get around, and out, of a metro area on an efficient all-freeway route.

Thanks to growing up in Rochester, no doubt.  :thumbsup:
And in an inner suburb just a mile from I-590, too.  The most major cancelled corridor is one I never need to use (but would be a glaring flaw for anyone trying to get between Greece and Webster).  Where I live in the Capital District is also well situated for using freeways to get around, although we do have more freeway inaccessible areas than Rochester.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Duke87 on April 23, 2019, 09:38:46 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 22, 2019, 09:48:16 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 22, 2019, 09:22:09 PM
Probably the Albany Skyway (removing the US 9 north ramp at I-787 and turning it into a park similar to NYC's high line), though there is desire among some advocates for a complete removal of I-787.
Maybe NY787 in Cohoes? It is in full swing...

I was referring to 787 in Cohoes, though the "Skyway" is also a valid example.

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 23, 2019, 04:37:59 PM
Does anyone think the people of Syracuse might unite to prevent the Community Grid from being constructed? Or, as I suspect, city residents will deliver a collective "meh" to this project, and the Community Grid will be constructed as proposed?

Not even a collective "meh". A majority of residents of the city proper support the "Community Grid" alternative. The opposition within the area generally comes from the suburbs.

Naturally, the people who use the viaduct want it to stay, while the people who live near it but don't derive much personal benefit from its presence want it gone.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cu2010 on April 23, 2019, 09:43:10 PM
Of note is that the current I-81 will be redesignated as BL 81. Would be the first green Interstate shield in NY.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on April 23, 2019, 10:26:30 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on April 23, 2019, 09:38:46 PM
Naturally, the people who use the viaduct want it to stay, while the people who live near it but don't derive much personal benefit from its presence want it gone.

Syracuse seems to be contemplating suicide, or sooee-cide, or stupid-kari.  Planning for a massive decline in population and employment.

Just the costs for demolition, building tie-ins to the existing highway truncations, and direct connections between I-81 and I-481, will be a substantial percentage of the costs for replacing the superstructure on the 0.9 mile bridge.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on April 23, 2019, 10:38:12 PM
I saw an interesting comment on NewsChannel 9's Facebook post (https://www.facebook.com/NewsChannel9/posts/10157129819435351?comment_id=10157129858250351&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D) of their "before and after rendering" article:

Quote
Anyone been to Big Flats lately? It was a "community grid." Then I86 was elevated though. Why was that a good idea?????

I hadn't thought of comparing the two before!

I still think that it's silly to think of the bridge as a barrier that will magically dramatically improve the quality of life for Syracuse if it's removed.  I'm willing to consider that it may have some affect, but some comments I've read are from people that seem to think a huge miracle will happen if the bridge is removed.  As I've thought for years, and I think I mentioned before in this thread: Why can't a new bridge look something like the Zakim Bridge in Boston?  A cable-stayed design would only need two towers for the length of the current viaduct, the towers could straddle Almond Street, the deck could be a bit higher, and the bridge towers could be lit up in different colors for different events, seasons, etc.

Another "community grid" I hadn't thought of until today is the one-way couplet of NY 13/34/96 in Ithaca.  It can get pretty busy, but I can't recall ever being stuck in traffic there for too long.  Each side of the couplet has three lanes, and the TDV shows an AADT of 40,275 (the total of both directions) for the busiest section.  The difference is that I-81 has over twice that amount of cars.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 24, 2019, 08:53:25 AM
Quote from: vdeane on April 23, 2019, 09:02:53 PM
The most major cancelled corridor is one I never need to use (but would be a glaring flaw for anyone trying to get between Greece and Webster).

I do have to travel between Greece and Webster every so often. 104 through Greece isn't great, but it is bearable; the lights are usually timed reasonably well, and at least the first 2/3 of the trip (or last, depending on your direction) is freeway.

I find Webster to Fairport much more annoying, because it's very slow moving and there's not even any four-lane through roads, much less a divided highway or a freeway. In fact, anything at all involving NY 250 tends to be frustrating, and the entire Pittsford - Fairport - East Rochester area is very clumsy to navigate. For Webster to Victor, I wouldn't even consider backroads; just hit the Bay Bridge > NY 590 > I-490 and deal with the extra mileage knowing how much time and exasperation will be saved.


Of course, I agree with the larger point that Rochester has it easy compared to many cities, Syracuse already being one of those, and all the more so if the viaduct really does go.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 24, 2019, 08:59:59 AM
Come to think of it, the New York State Fair alone may be justification for rebuilding the viaduct. Fair traffic is bad enough as it is; I can't even imagine what it would be like with no viaduct, even with an optimal community grid.

Not to mention how much less accessible Destiny USA and SYR would become from points south; that's two entities I would imagine are very much against removal.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 24, 2019, 09:13:30 AM
Quote from: webny99 on April 24, 2019, 08:59:59 AM
Come to think of it, the New York State Fair alone may be justification for rebuilding the viaduct. Fair traffic is bad enough as it is; I can't even imagine what it would be like with no viaduct, even with an optimal community grid.

Not to mention how much less accessible Destiny USA and SYR would become from points south; that's two entities I would imagine are very much against removal.
State fair will be only moderately affected by viaduct removal. It only affects southern approach; and adds maybe 3 miles detour. Not critical for once a year long haul trip. Some ould reroute to Thruway. Spending billions on infrastructure for once a year event is also less than wise.
As for Destiny USA - yes, they will be affected, they are complaining, and yes, Onondaga county will be missing a lot of sales tax, Syracuse will loose lower level some jobs. I don't have too much sympathy here, Tompkins county for one should be winning as NYC now collects sales tax from online sales anyway.  Young people moving out of upstate also reduce traffic through the community grid.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on April 24, 2019, 09:20:14 AM
Why can't Syracuse do what Birmingham is doing --

ALDOT says I-59/20 construction is ahead of schedule and we've got the photos to prove it (photo gallery)
https://bhamnow.com/2019/04/05/aldot-i-59-20-construction/
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 24, 2019, 10:52:01 AM
Quote from: Beltway on April 24, 2019, 09:20:14 AM
Why can't Syracuse do what Birmingham is doing --

ALDOT says I-59/20 construction is ahead of schedule and we've got the photos to prove it (photo gallery)
https://bhamnow.com/2019/04/05/aldot-i-59-20-construction/
Because the issue at hand is not a construction itself, it is about what exactly has to be built. That discussion is going on for at least a decade, and there no consensus about how to proceed, not even a hint of opinion convergence.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 24, 2019, 12:44:35 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 24, 2019, 09:13:30 AM
Quote from: webny99 on April 24, 2019, 08:59:59 AM
Come to think of it, the New York State Fair alone may be justification for rebuilding the viaduct. Fair traffic is bad enough as it is; I can't even imagine what it would be like with no viaduct, even with an optimal community grid.
State fair will be only moderately affected by viaduct removal. It only affects southern approach; and adds maybe 3 miles detour. Not critical for once a year long haul trip. Some ould reroute to Thruway. Spending billions on infrastructure for once a year event is also less than wise.

To be clear, I don't think the fair is the biggest reason to rebuild the viaduct, or even close to it, but it is certainly a major point in favor. I know if I was coming in to the fair from the south, I would plan on using the much shorter route via the community grid as opposed to using I-481. It doesn't take a very high percentage of fair traffic to make that decision to cause some pretty significant traffic issues.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 24, 2019, 12:47:50 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 24, 2019, 12:44:35 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 24, 2019, 09:13:30 AM
Quote from: webny99 on April 24, 2019, 08:59:59 AM
Come to think of it, the New York State Fair alone may be justification for rebuilding the viaduct. Fair traffic is bad enough as it is; I can't even imagine what it would be like with no viaduct, even with an optimal community grid.
State fair will be only moderately affected by viaduct removal. It only affects southern approach; and adds maybe 3 miles detour. Not critical for once a year long haul trip. Some ould reroute to Thruway. Spending billions on infrastructure for once a year event is also less than wise.

To be clear, I don't think the fair is the biggest reason to rebuild the viaduct, or even close to it, but it is certainly a major point in favor. I know if I was coming in to the fair from the south, I would plan on using the much shorter route via the community grid as opposed to using I-481. It doesn't take a very high percentage of fair traffic to make that decision to cause some pretty significant traffic issues.
And as they told you in other threads: you do not design for traffic which exists few days a year. 95% is a reasonable target; that means that 2 weeks a year a road can easily be inadequate for the volume - but you don't want to overbuild just for those events.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 24, 2019, 12:58:22 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 24, 2019, 12:47:50 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 24, 2019, 12:44:35 PM
To be clear, I don't think the fair is the biggest reason to rebuild the viaduct, or even close to it, but it is certainly a major point in favor. I know if I was coming in to the fair from the south, I would plan on using the much shorter route via the community grid as opposed to using I-481. It doesn't take a very high percentage of fair traffic to make that decision to cause some pretty significant traffic issues.
And as they told you in other threads: you do not design for traffic which exists few days a year. 95% is a reasonable target; that means that 2 weeks a year a road can easily be inadequate for the volume - but you don't want to overbuild just for those events.

I never said the project should be designed a certain way just for the fair. It shouldn't be, of course; it should be designed to best fill the needs of normal traffic passing through the area. But nevertheless the fair is a point in favor of rebuilding the viaduct instead of creating a community grid, and that's obvious to me, so I would think it should be obvious to the state, as well.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on April 24, 2019, 12:59:52 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 24, 2019, 09:13:30 AM
Quote from: webny99 on April 24, 2019, 08:59:59 AM
Come to think of it, the New York State Fair alone may be justification for rebuilding the viaduct. Fair traffic is bad enough as it is; I can't even imagine what it would be like with no viaduct, even with an optimal community grid.

Not to mention how much less accessible Destiny USA and SYR would become from points south; that's two entities I would imagine are very much against removal.
State fair will be only moderately affected by viaduct removal. It only affects southern approach; and adds maybe 3 miles detour. Not critical for once a year long haul trip. Some ould reroute to Thruway. Spending billions on infrastructure for once a year event is also less than wise.
As for Destiny USA - yes, they will be affected, they are complaining, and yes, Onondaga county will be missing a lot of sales tax, Syracuse will loose lower level some jobs. I don't have too much sympathy here, Tompkins county for one should be winning as NYC now collects sales tax from online sales anyway.  Young people moving out of upstate also reduce traffic through the community grid.
It's three miles on I-81 from exit 16A to I-690.  Taking I-481 and I-690 for that trip is 11 miles.  As such, there won't be any good all-freeway route from Binghamton to the Fair any more.

Why someone would take the Thruway to get to the Fair from any direction but east or west, I don't know.  It's a bit of a diversion.  This may be a side effect of growing up in Rochester, but I view the Thruway as being for long-distance traffic, not local traffic.

Of course, this point isn't just regarding the fair, but from anywhere south of Syracuse to/from the west.

Quote from: webny99 on April 24, 2019, 12:44:35 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 24, 2019, 09:13:30 AM
Quote from: webny99 on April 24, 2019, 08:59:59 AM
Come to think of it, the New York State Fair alone may be justification for rebuilding the viaduct. Fair traffic is bad enough as it is; I can't even imagine what it would be like with no viaduct, even with an optimal community grid.
State fair will be only moderately affected by viaduct removal. It only affects southern approach; and adds maybe 3 miles detour. Not critical for once a year long haul trip. Some ould reroute to Thruway. Spending billions on infrastructure for once a year event is also less than wise.

To be clear, I don't think the fair is the biggest reason to rebuild the viaduct, or even close to it, but it is certainly a major point in favor. I know if I was coming in to the fair from the south, I would plan on using the much shorter route via the community grid as opposed to using I-481. It doesn't take a very high percentage of fair traffic to make that decision to cause some pretty significant traffic issues.
I for one am very glad I don't have to make that choice - privilege of living east of Syracuse, I guess.  On the one hand, I prefer to keep my routing "within the system" unless I'm clinching things (I tend to think of the interstate system on a separate and systemic level, but this happens for non-interstates too - I don't like swapping in and out of the state route system either, preferring to follow a local-county-state/US-interstate/freeway-state/US-county-local travel pattern).  On the other, making a significant diversion that triples the mileage between two points because some urbanists have become very influential doesn't sit well with me either.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on April 24, 2019, 01:31:11 PM
Quote from: vdeaneThis may be a side effect of growing up in Rochester, but I view the Thruway as being for long-distance traffic, not local traffic.

Keep in mind that the Thruway has 6 interchanges between I-690 and I-481 inclusive.  That's about one every 2-2.5 miles and far more frequent than what you have in the Rochester area.  There also isn't a whole lot of Rochester suburbia/exurbia south of the Thruway, but Syracuse has a lot of such north of the Thruway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 24, 2019, 02:15:01 PM
Quote from: froggie on April 24, 2019, 01:31:11 PM
Quote from: vdeaneThis may be a side effect of growing up in Rochester, but I view the Thruway as being for long-distance traffic, not local traffic.
Keep in mind that the Thruway has 6 interchanges between I-690 and I-481 inclusive.  That's about one every 2-2.5 miles and far more frequent than what you have in the Rochester area.  There also isn't a whole lot of Rochester suburbia/exurbia south of the Thruway, but Syracuse has a lot of such north of the Thruway.

I think it's a given that the Thruway has more local traffic (though still not a lot per se) near Syracuse than Rochester.
However, the point therein is that someone going from Binghamton to the state fair isn't going to use the Thruway, regardless of what happens with the I-81 viaduct.




A much broader question is what the overall impact of viaduct removal would be on traffic volumes on the Thruway. As someone who travels to the East Coast via Syracuse with some frequency, I see three basic options for if/when the viaduct is removed (not including I-390 > I-86, which avoids the Syracuse region altogether):

(1) Take the same route as current, using the new surface street where necessary. Shortest mileage and probably not a terrible option, especially at night, but nevertheless an annoying incongruity on a long-distance trip.
(2) Take I-690 to its current eastern terminus at I-481. Adds 8 miles and about as many minutes as compared to taking the existing viaduct. Probably the worst option, because you're basically taking three sides of a square instead of one, and you almost certainly lose more time than you would by slogging through the new grid.
(3) Take the Thruway all the way to I-481. Avoids downtown, avoids I-690, and doesn't feel quite as circular - or at least forms a larger circle - as compared to (2). Current time/distance from Thruway Exit 39 to the southern terminus of I-481 via the viaduct is 15 min/14 mi. Via the Thruway > I-481, time/distance is 24 min/25 mi. Also adds about 10 minutes, but with better opportunities for making up time and on (in general) less congested roadways.

Adding a Thruway exit at NY 173 would provide a fourth option; roughly this (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.0028121,-76.1326081/2250-2342+NY-173,+Warners,+NY+13164/@43.045508,-76.315652,12z/data=!4m10!4m9!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x89d9fb719eee8dd1:0x48265f84bcf33d50!2m2!1d-76.3474846!2d43.093078!3e0!5i1!5m1!1e1). I am not sure how much potential this corridor has to be a major south/west connector or how intense it would be to widen it to four lanes throughout.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on April 24, 2019, 08:10:52 PM
It's too bad it's no longer possible to build the western bypass as originally envisioned, since it require taking a small bite out of a Wegmans to build the EB on ramp.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: amroad17 on April 25, 2019, 01:08:09 AM
And moving a power substation.

Before the Camillus bypass was finished, we would, after visiting relatives in the Camillus area (Memphis, Elbridge, Jordan), have our route from there to the Hampton Roads area of Virginia involve taking NY 5 East (West Genesee Street) to NY 173 East to US 11 South to I-81 South at Exit 16.  Sure, we were driving on undivided four lane and two lane roads, however, we never had to deal with the downtown Syracuse traffic.  Now that NY 695 and the Camillus bypass is finished, one could leave the fairgrounds, head south on NY 695 to NY 5 East, make a right onto West Genesee, then a left onto NY 173 East to get to I-81 South to avoid whatever may be attempted in Syracuse.

This section of I-81 in Syracuse is most likely the worst section to have to decide something like this.  Many commuters rely on this section to go just about anywhere north and west of the Syracuse area from the south side of the city.  I believe that the section of I-81 north of I-690, if it had a viaduct, would not be as much of a problem as it is currently.  There would be ways to "go around" it.  There really isn't a good way to "go around" the Community Grid option or any reconstruction of the viaduct if that happens.

I would like to believe what ALDOT is building in Birmingham would work in Syracuse.  Unfortunately, I don 't believe it would,  The existing footprint is too small.  Besides, many citizens, especially those that live in and around the I-81 corridor in downtown Syracuse, would love to see the viaduct be torn down and not have another one built in its place.

This is one case where it is a fight between the city and the suburbs.  If I still lived in the area, I guess I would have more of a say in what is decided.  As it is, I can only voice my opinions from 600 miles away.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Flyer78 on April 25, 2019, 10:42:48 AM
Quote from: webny99 on April 24, 2019, 02:15:01 PM
Adding a Thruway exit at NY 173 would provide a fourth option; roughly this (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.0028121,-76.1326081/2250-2342+NY-173,+Warners,+NY+13164/@43.045508,-76.315652,12z/data=!4m10!4m9!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x89d9fb719eee8dd1:0x48265f84bcf33d50!2m2!1d-76.3474846!2d43.093078!3e0!5i1!5m1!1e1). I am not sure how much potential this corridor has to be a major south/west connector or how intense it would be to widen it to four lanes throughout.

As someone who grew up with a Warners address, widening 173 would be an issue. Through the hamlet of Warners, properties are close to the road; and would have to cross the main east-west corridor on a widened bridge in "downtown Warners (aka The Bridge)" - This is an active corridor, with trains often every five minutes of both passenger and freight variety. The next several miles of 173 are signed for 35 MPH but that is laughable by most standards. Past Reed Webster Park in Amboy heading towards Fairmount, the speed drops to 30 MPH, and again housing stock aligns close-in to the right-of-way. Proceeding through the Westover tracts, a realigned 173 heads towards Fairmount Corners (the realignment was necessary to build the NY5 bypass) and crosses old 5, again, in constrained corners. As 173 heads towards Onondaga Hill/"The Valley" it again is fairly constrained along its route.

Tl;dr: Widening would cause a high amount of property acquisition. I'm not sure it would be required for widening in all areas, however - commercial locations along NY173 are limited to the Fairmount areas until hitting the valley section.

From Camillus and points west , there are (winding) ways to meet I-81 further south at Tully. It is easily 30 minutes longer to take that route with slower-speed country roads

How is the rest of the old routing look for the Western bypass? Other than a major substation and Wegmans employee parking I think the area has filled-in, can't imagine reviving the plan (funding aside) would be well received...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on April 25, 2019, 11:58:59 AM
QuoteHow is the rest of the old routing look for the Western bypass?

- There are houses along Granger Rd (about 1,000ft south of the Wegmans) where the bypass corridor would have crossed it.
- There are blocks of suburban residential development about 3/4mi south of the Wegmans.
- There's at least one house along Fay Rd (about 1.5mi south of Wegmans) that would be impacted.

Beyond that location, what's "in the way" is questionable because there was never a fully defined corridor over to 81.  It never got past the planning stage.  On the early '70s Syracuse metro transportation plan that I found, there were 3 different options for bringing the Southwest bypass to 81.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on April 25, 2019, 07:49:13 PM
Quote from: upstatenyroads on April 22, 2019, 10:52:36 PM
Today's announcement was one of the stupidest things I've read about in New York in years. Glad I moved out. Now, if I could just figure out how to change my username here on this board doohickey.
I think you need to PM an admin about that.  Alps changed mine a few years ago.

Meant to reply earlier, but I guess it slipped through the cracks.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on April 25, 2019, 08:42:35 PM
I just had yet another thought for I-81: Are business route standards as high as regular Interstate standards?  I remember seeing a post somewhere on the forum about how substandard a business interstate was, and if I remember right, it was I-85 Business in Greensboro, NC.  That used to be regular I-85, then I-85 was realigned on a bypass.  Could the I-81 viaduct be rebuilt in the same footprint and be designated I-81 Business, while still realigning I-81 onto I-481?  Not having to acquire property would reduce the cost of a viaduct, possibly to a similar cost to building a community grid.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on April 25, 2019, 08:47:10 PM
Quote from: Michael on April 25, 2019, 08:42:35 PM
I just had yet another thought for I-81: Are business route standards as high as regular Interstate standards?
A business route can be a surface road. There's really not much standards in that regard for them. I-95 Business is a surface street through Fayetteville, NC.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: oscar on April 25, 2019, 09:03:05 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 25, 2019, 08:47:10 PM
Quote from: Michael on April 25, 2019, 08:42:35 PM
I just had yet another thought for I-81: Are business route standards as high as regular Interstate standards?
A business route can be a surface road. There's really not much standards in that regard for them. I-95 Business is a surface street through Fayetteville, NC.

Even two-lane surface streets, of lesser quality than the Fayetteville BR (largely four-lane divided), are Interstate business routes. Business routes often are parts of former U.S. routes bypassed by an Interstate, which especially out west will often be surface streets.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on April 26, 2019, 12:57:13 PM
I'd go so far as to say that surface streets are the norm for business routes.  They're everywhere out west.  Here's a typical example (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9721958,-117.7364997,3a,24.9y,44.38h,91.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFpwT_PybUcBRsBUrF0lcxg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: NoGoodNamesAvailable on April 26, 2019, 04:36:50 PM
Quote from: Michael on April 25, 2019, 08:42:35 PM
I just had yet another thought for I-81: Are business route standards as high as regular Interstate standards?  I remember seeing a post somewhere on the forum about how substandard a business interstate was, and if I remember right, it was I-85 Business in Greensboro, NC.  That used to be regular I-85, then I-85 was realigned on a bypass.  Could the I-81 viaduct be rebuilt in the same footprint and be designated I-81 Business, while still realigning I-81 onto I-481?  Not having to acquire property would reduce the cost of a viaduct, possibly to a similar cost to building a community grid.

A new viaduct with a business interstate designation would have to meet design criteria for either freeways (NYSDOT uses the same criteria for interstates and non-interstate freeways) or NHS urban arterials, which are still strict enough that significant realignment and land takings would be necessary.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on April 26, 2019, 05:04:34 PM
No one can see the future, but my crystal ball prediction (and gut feeling) is NYDOT is going to go forward with the Community Grid, and tear down the viaduct. And when the locals complain about the traffic problems the boulevard will inevitably cause, the DOT will blame everyone but themselves for it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 26, 2019, 05:49:19 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 26, 2019, 05:04:34 PM
No one can see the future, but my crystal ball prediction (and gut feeling) is NYDOT is going to go forward with the Community Grid, and tear down the viaduct. And when the locals complain about the traffic problems the boulevard will inevitably cause, the DOT will blame everyone but themselves for it.
They don't really have much choice.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on April 26, 2019, 08:23:12 PM
^^^^^^^^^^
Syracuse is an archetypal "rust belt" city, with business declining and those folks with opportunities elsewhere leaving in droves (and SUV's and trucks and whatever else they can commandeer!).  The earlier posted speculation that the I-81 viaduct teardown and "boulevardization" was a done deal several electoral cycles ago is probably correct; with upstate NY politics the way they are, there's probably no one entity in the state legislature who could or would "roadblock" this project.  My guess is that, besides the state fair, the one institution that will remain intact in Syracuse regardless of population loss is the university of the same name -- ostensibly containing an urban planning and/or public affairs department; I could count on the fingers of one hand those particular entities not being dominated by the latest trends in urbanism (how it morphed from methodology to ideology would be an interesting side-study!).  It's also highly probable that the one source of local information maintaining a high level of consistency would be those same academically-based folks; maintaining a moderated stream of information to NYDOT emphasizing their POV (including students afraid to walk through underpasses) in all likelihood turned the tide.  Without a consistent barrage -- or, again, even a stream -- of contrarian information, likely due to a dearth of local industry with a "dog in the race" -- the side making the most noise prevailed. 

Possibly another backhanded rationalization for the I-81 teardown/relocation would be that a city effectively on its last socioeconomic legs under the existing set of circumstances might serve as a "test bench" for elevating urbanist theory into actual practice.  After all, who's going to be left to complain?  Surely not NYDOT, which will, after spending some bucks on revamping 481 to handle more through traffic than it's getting now, have one less crumbling structure to maintain.  And surely not the other Syracuse U. students, most of whom will be getting the hell out of Dodge after graduation, so area issues won't be a primary concern to them.  About the only likely complainants would be the folks commuting into town from the north or south who'd find the boulevard slog less than pleasurable -- particularly in a city or region that can ill afford massive expenses to implement much in the way of new transit.   And without an effective political voice that carries east to Albany, the decision to manipulate Syracuse traffic patterns to determine if indeed the theories currently in vogue hold water will likely stand barring some unforeseen cohesive opposition. 

Prior thread speculation puts the timeframe for all this at about a decade; if anyone with official knowledge (you know who you are!) has different info, please chime in!     
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 26, 2019, 09:15:55 PM
Who the heck is "NYDOT"? :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on April 26, 2019, 10:22:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 26, 2019, 09:15:55 PM
Who the heck is "NYDOT"? :D
NYSDOT... But nice catch  :-D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on April 27, 2019, 01:37:57 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 26, 2019, 10:22:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 26, 2019, 09:15:55 PM
Who the heck is "NYDOT"? :D
NYSDOT... But nice catch  :-D

Aaaaarrrrrghhh........typical New York modus operandi; making things more complicated than they need to be!!!!! :rolleyes:  Glad all we have out here is good old apathetic Caltrans!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: steviep24 on April 27, 2019, 09:24:43 AM
Quote from: sparker on April 27, 2019, 01:37:57 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 26, 2019, 10:22:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 26, 2019, 09:15:55 PM
Who the heck is "NYDOT"? :D
NYSDOT... But nice catch  :-D

Aaaaarrrrrghhh........typical New York modus operandi; making things more complicated than they need to be!!!!! :rolleyes:  Glad all we have out here is good old apathetic Caltrans!
There's also NYCDOT. Need a way to tell them apart.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on April 27, 2019, 11:35:06 AM
Quote from: steviep24 on April 27, 2019, 09:24:43 AM
Quote from: sparker on April 27, 2019, 01:37:57 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 26, 2019, 10:22:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 26, 2019, 09:15:55 PM
Who the heck is "NYDOT"? :D
NYSDOT... But nice catch  :-D
Aaaaarrrrrghhh........typical New York modus operandi; making things more complicated than they need to be!!!!! :rolleyes:  Glad all we have out here is good old apathetic Caltrans!
There's also NYCDOT. Need a way to tell them apart.

That is what happens when the state and its largest city have the same name.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kevinb1994 on April 27, 2019, 01:37:43 PM
Quote from: Beltway on April 27, 2019, 11:35:06 AM
Quote from: steviep24 on April 27, 2019, 09:24:43 AM
Quote from: sparker on April 27, 2019, 01:37:57 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 26, 2019, 10:22:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 26, 2019, 09:15:55 PM
Who the heck is "NYDOT"? :D
NYSDOT... But nice catch  :-D
Aaaaarrrrrghhh........typical New York modus operandi; making things more complicated than they need to be!!!!! :rolleyes:  Glad all we have out here is good old apathetic Caltrans!
There's also NYCDOT. Need a way to tell them apart.

That is what happens when the state and its largest city have the same name.

Of course, not the only example in America.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Mergingtraffic on April 27, 2019, 01:49:32 PM
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/04/i-81-690-were-supposed-to-finally-connect-on-syracuses-north-side-what-happened.html


So they took out the I-81/I-690 ramp connection to please a few regardless of safety. They contradict themselves
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: hbelkins on April 27, 2019, 01:57:55 PM
Is the viaduct really "crumbling?" Are there not less-involved repairs that can be done to extend its useful life? Concrete flaking off the piers or potholes on the bridge deck are a normal fact of life.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 27, 2019, 03:56:39 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 27, 2019, 01:57:55 PM
Is the viaduct really "crumbling?" Are there not less-involved repairs that can be done to extend its useful life? Concrete flaking off the piers or potholes on the bridge deck are a normal fact of life.
my understanding is that yes, these are structures approaching the end of life.
Next door, in Albany, NYSDOT did quite a bit of work on I-787 and I-90 bridge (I believe it was basically rebuilt in place).  Those are similar elevated structures, but those are built so that there is much less controversy with modern standards. That mean 1:1 replacement is possible from funding point of view. Syracuse's problem that structure is quite a bit substandard.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 27, 2019, 05:42:31 PM
Pfft.  The costs in Syracuse make the I-787 and even the Patroon Island Bridge work look like a pittance.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on April 27, 2019, 07:02:08 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 27, 2019, 01:57:55 PM
Is the viaduct really "crumbling?" Are there not less-involved repairs that can be done to extend its useful life? Concrete flaking off the piers or potholes on the bridge deck are a normal fact of life.

The viaduct was already on "life support" when Meaghan lived in Syracuse 15 years ago.  Age, winter, and traffic certainly have not helped in those years.  It's to the point where it would cost NYSDOT more in the long run to do "less involved repairs" (which at this point would happen with considerable frequency) than it would cost to remove or replace it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on April 27, 2019, 10:31:32 PM
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on April 27, 2019, 01:49:32 PM
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/04/i-81-690-were-supposed-to-finally-connect-on-syracuses-north-side-what-happened.html


So they took out the I-81/I-690 ramp connection to please a few regardless of safety. They contradict themselves
Part of me wonders if that has anything to do with designating a business loop rather than making the freeway portion a new I-481 and the rest a state highway like was originally planned.  I know FHWA hates partial interchanges these days - especially for interstate/interstate junctions.

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Duke87 on April 28, 2019, 03:30:54 PM
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on April 27, 2019, 01:49:32 PM
So they took out the I-81/I-690 ramp connection to please a few regardless of safety. They contradict themselves

Well, and to cut costs. Given the current state of NYSDOT's finances, it won't take much local complaint to convince them to spend less money on something.

This is also a contributing factor to the "community grid" alternative itself - the state has to tear down the existing viaduct regardless, and the proposed improvements to 481, while unrobust and leading to a reduction in overall capacity and network quality, cost less than building a new viaduct would.

They won't of course come out and say "sorry, we can't afford to build a new viaduct, we're broke", they'll only present it as "revitalizing the community" and all sorts of other buzzphrases, but that is part of what is going on here.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on April 28, 2019, 03:37:06 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on April 28, 2019, 03:30:54 PM
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on April 27, 2019, 01:49:32 PM
So they took out the I-81/I-690 ramp connection to please a few regardless of safety. They contradict themselves
Well, and to cut costs. Given the current state of NYSDOT's finances, it won't take much local complaint to convince them to spend less money on something.
This is also a contributing factor to the "community grid" alternative itself - the state has to tear down the existing viaduct regardless, and the proposed improvements to 481, while unrobust and leading to a reduction in overall capacity and network quality, cost less than building a new viaduct would.

Good grief, it is only a 0.9-mile-long bridge.  You would think it was 30 miles long the way some of officialdom is wringing their hands over this.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 28, 2019, 04:49:18 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on April 28, 2019, 03:30:54 PM
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on April 27, 2019, 01:49:32 PM
So they took out the I-81/I-690 ramp connection to please a few regardless of safety. They contradict themselves

Well, and to cut costs. Given the current state of NYSDOT's finances, it won't take much local complaint to convince them to spend less money on something.
Cost of ramps is quoted $90M out of $2B project, less than 5%. Not negligible, but it may raise questions from FHWA, as mentioned. That is for the project which is mostly federal money.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on April 28, 2019, 05:40:09 PM
This whole thing is going to be a mistake if actually put forth and constructed (or more like destruction).

The current "bypass" is going to see massive traffic issues as it's already overloaded, and traffic who already relies on the existing I-81 that's not long-distance is going to be forced to surface streets.

Keep it going NYSDOT!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 28, 2019, 06:20:35 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 28, 2019, 05:40:09 PM
This whole thing is going to be a mistake if actually put forth and constructed (or more like destruction).

The current "bypass" is going to see massive traffic issues as it's already overloaded, and traffic who already relies on the existing I-81 that's not long-distance is going to be forced to surface streets.

Keep it going NYSDOT!
There is no really good option here. At this point I feel the worse it grows, the better: there will be an example to show as a failure to counter urbanism approach.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on April 28, 2019, 08:06:47 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2019, 06:20:35 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 28, 2019, 05:40:09 PM
This whole thing is going to be a mistake if actually put forth and constructed (or more like destruction).

The current "bypass" is going to see massive traffic issues as it's already overloaded, and traffic who already relies on the existing I-81 that's not long-distance is going to be forced to surface streets.

Keep it going NYSDOT!
There is no really good option here. At this point I feel the worse it grows, the better: there will be an example to show as a failure to counter urbanism approach.
I don't see that happening.  Any congestion will be touted as a "feature" rather than a bug, and if development or revitalization fails to happen, it will probably be explained away as Syracuse being on decline rather than any flaw in the urbanist approach.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on April 28, 2019, 08:08:11 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2019, 06:20:35 PM
There is no really good option here. At this point I feel the worse it grows, the better: there will be an example to show as a failure to counter urbanism approach.
Or worse... it'll be the first of many...

I'm just glad it's nowhere around where I'm at... for now anyways...

Next, they'll want to demolish I-95 through Downtown Richmond, construct a community grid, and route I-95 on I-295 (ironically, that was the original plan when I-295 was built in the 80s). I-95 divides our neighborhoods, tear it down! (even though most of it isn't elevated)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 28, 2019, 08:26:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 28, 2019, 08:06:47 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2019, 06:20:35 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 28, 2019, 05:40:09 PM
This whole thing is going to be a mistake if actually put forth and constructed (or more like destruction).

The current "bypass" is going to see massive traffic issues as it's already overloaded, and traffic who already relies on the existing I-81 that's not long-distance is going to be forced to surface streets.

Keep it going NYSDOT!
There is no really good option here. At this point I feel the worse it grows, the better: there will be an example to show as a failure to counter urbanism approach.
I don't see that happening.  Any congestion will be touted as a "feature" rather than a bug, and if development or revitalization fails to happen, it will probably be explained away as Syracuse being on decline rather than any flaw in the urbanist approach.
It would still be a pretty strong argument that city population, and probably are population, would go down. Of course, anything can be denied - including 2+2=4 - but there will be a good example of "and no, it didn't help"
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on April 28, 2019, 08:50:16 PM
^^^^^^^^
If indeed the Syracuse population continues to decrease, urbanists may be inclined to preside (or attempt to do so) over a city "transfiguration" into a format built around the university and geared toward the regional service sector, since manufacturing has essentially left the area.  If so, there's a distinct possibililty that attention may be turned toward I-690 as the singular feature of the "old way of doing things" remaining in the city core; placing that facility on the chopping block (wholly or partially) might be on the agenda within a decade or two. 

An ancillary question:  Have the independent suburbs surrounding Syracuse (e.g. Fairmount, Liverpool, Bayberry et. al.) also featured correponding population losses -- or have they actually served as relocation destinations from the central city?  That in itself would serve either as further incentive to continue down the selected path of urban revamping or, alternately, indicate that the regional population, rather than abandoning the region in a wholesale fashion, has simply rearranged itself around the periphery as with so many other urban areas. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 28, 2019, 09:14:48 PM
Quote from: sparker on April 28, 2019, 08:50:16 PM
^^^^^^^^
If indeed the Syracuse population continues to decrease, urbanists may be inclined to preside (or attempt to do so) over a city "transfiguration" into a format built around the university and geared toward the regional service sector, since manufacturing has essentially left the area.  If so, there's a distinct possibililty that attention may be turned toward I-690 as the singular feature of the "old way of doing things" remaining in the city core; placing that facility on the chopping block (wholly or partially) might be on the agenda within a decade or two. 

An ancillary question:  Have the independent suburbs surrounding Syracuse (e.g. Fairmount, Liverpool, Bayberry et. al.) also featured correponding population losses -- or have they actually served as relocation destinations from the central city?  That in itself would serve either as further incentive to continue down the selected path of urban revamping or, alternately, indicate that the regional population, rather than abandoning the region in a wholesale fashion, has simply rearranged itself around the periphery as with so many other urban areas.
Census estimates: city of Syracuse NY: 146k(2010)->144k(2017), -2k; Syracuse MSA 662.5k(2010) ->651k(2017), -11.5k
Traditional disclaimer: every urbanist knows these estimates are too low
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on April 28, 2019, 09:19:40 PM
Quote from: sparker on April 28, 2019, 08:50:16 PM
An ancillary question:  Have the independent suburbs surrounding Syracuse (e.g. Fairmount, Liverpool, Bayberry et. al.) also featured correponding population losses -- or have they actually served as relocation destinations from the central city?  That in itself would serve either as further incentive to continue down the selected path of urban revamping or, alternately, indicate that the regional population, rather than abandoning the region in a wholesale fashion, has simply rearranged itself around the periphery as with so many other urban areas.

The metro as a whole has had massive population losses. The city itself has been losing population for 60 years, but the largest losses by percentage are in the suburbs. Baby Boomers are retiring and moving south/dying out and younger people are not staying in the region to replace them. There are some projections that the region will lose 1/4 of its population within the next 20 years.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 28, 2019, 09:46:18 PM
Quote from: cl94 on April 28, 2019, 09:19:40 PM
Quote from: sparker on April 28, 2019, 08:50:16 PM
An ancillary question:  Have the independent suburbs surrounding Syracuse (e.g. Fairmount, Liverpool, Bayberry et. al.) also featured correponding population losses -- or have they actually served as relocation destinations from the central city?
The metro as a whole has had massive population losses. The city itself has been losing population for 60 years, but the largest losses by percentage are in the suburbs. Baby Boomers are retiring and moving south/dying out and younger people are not staying in the region to replace them. There are some projections that the region will lose 1/4 of its population within the next 20 years.

Massive? I really have a tough time believing that the Syracuse region is losing population at any significant rate, much less the rate of Detroit in the 1970s. I know at least some of the suburbs are still growing, albeit slowly. I hope to get time tomorrow to compile some actual data for both the city and the metro area.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 28, 2019, 09:47:07 PM
Meh.  Syracuse is a hurting city.  It's been losing people over the decades.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 28, 2019, 10:07:56 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 28, 2019, 09:46:18 PM
Quote from: cl94 on April 28, 2019, 09:19:40 PM
Quote from: sparker on April 28, 2019, 08:50:16 PM
An ancillary question:  Have the independent suburbs surrounding Syracuse (e.g. Fairmount, Liverpool, Bayberry et. al.) also featured correponding population losses -- or have they actually served as relocation destinations from the central city?
The metro as a whole has had massive population losses. The city itself has been losing population for 60 years, but the largest losses by percentage are in the suburbs. Baby Boomers are retiring and moving south/dying out and younger people are not staying in the region to replace them. There are some projections that the region will lose 1/4 of its population within the next 20 years.

Massive? I really have a tough time believing that the Syracuse region is losing population at any significant rate, much less the rate of Detroit in the 1970s. I know at least some of the suburbs are still growing, albeit slowly. I hope to get time tomorrow to compile some actual data for both the city and the metro area.
To make your life a bit easier:
https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/popest.html
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on April 29, 2019, 10:03:24 AM
Down but not out: https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/04/unemployment-hits-18-year-low-in-syracuse-area.html

Syracuse is like many rust belt cities (Cleveland, Rochester, Toledo, Detroit, etc.) and hasn't been immune to the rapid changes in the manufacturing sector. The university and hospital system are the biggest drivers for the economy today - and that's nothing to sneeze at. High paying, gainful employment.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 29, 2019, 10:40:03 AM
Heh.  They'll take any positive spin they can get.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: RobbieL2415 on April 29, 2019, 11:13:59 AM
If I-490 is all below-grade through Rochester, why wasn't I-81 designed in the same manner
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 29, 2019, 11:18:21 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 29, 2019, 11:13:59 AM
If I-490 is all below-grade through Rochester, why wasn't I-81 designed in the same manner
not sure, but tunnel is specifically said to be difficult due to ground water being close to surface. Since most of upstate cities are in river valleys, and Syracuse being specifically on a lakeshore, I wouldn't be surprised if that complicates any construction below the ground level
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: RobbieL2415 on April 29, 2019, 11:27:00 AM
Quote from: kalvado on April 29, 2019, 11:18:21 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 29, 2019, 11:13:59 AM
If I-490 is all below-grade through Rochester, why wasn't I-81 designed in the same manner
not sure, but tunnel is specifically said to be difficult due to ground water being close to surface. Since most of upstate cities are in river valleys, and Syracuse being specifically on a lakeshore, I wouldn't be surprised if that complicates any construction below the ground level
Rochester's water table isn't too good either.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 29, 2019, 11:47:38 AM
Quote from: seicer on April 29, 2019, 10:03:24 AM
Syracuse is like many rust belt cities (Cleveland, Rochester, Toledo, Detroit, etc.) and hasn't been immune to the rapid changes in the manufacturing sector.

I don't believe Syracuse and Rochester are Rust Belt cities; neither had the manufacturing base of places such as Buffalo, Pittsburgh, or Cleveland. I started a thread for this discussion: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=24907.0
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 29, 2019, 11:53:01 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 29, 2019, 11:13:59 AM
If I-490 is all below-grade through Rochester, why wasn't I-81 designed in the same manner

I-190 is above grade for many miles through Buffalo, but I haven't heard urbanists there crying for removal. Probably because it is not yet in enough of a state of disrepair for the state to be discussing replacement options.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 29, 2019, 12:13:50 PM


Quote from: webny99 on April 29, 2019, 11:47:38 AM
Quote from: seicer on April 29, 2019, 10:03:24 AM
Syracuse is like many rust belt cities (Cleveland, Rochester, Toledo, Detroit, etc.) and hasn't been immune to the rapid changes in the manufacturing sector.

I don't believe Syracuse and Rochester are Rust Belt cities; neither had the manufacturing base of places such as Buffalo, Pittsburgh, or Cleveland. I started a thread for this discussion: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=24907.0

Pfft.  Your beliefs are quite unique.  Rochester had Kodak go kaput and Syracuse has just had a slow bleed over the decades.  Both economically hurting cities are in the Rust Belt with Buffalo.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on April 29, 2019, 12:25:56 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 29, 2019, 11:47:38 AM
Quote from: seicer on April 29, 2019, 10:03:24 AM
Syracuse is like many rust belt cities (Cleveland, Rochester, Toledo, Detroit, etc.) and hasn't been immune to the rapid changes in the manufacturing sector.

I don't believe Syracuse and Rochester are Rust Belt cities; neither had the manufacturing base of places such as Buffalo, Pittsburgh, or Cleveland. I started a thread for this discussion: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=24907.0

Albany is essentially the start of the "rust belt" that extends westward into the Midwest, ending at Chicago. It's more helpful to look at a map of manufacturing job losses from the mid-1950s to today, which essentially pins the "rust belt" between Albany and Gary, Indiana, including Detroit and Eastern Michigan, southwest Pennsylvania, northeast Kentucky/southern Ohio/western West Virginia, and southwest Ohio.
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2017/10/study_rust_belt_cities_like_syracuse_need_state_help_to_avoid_insolvency.html
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 29, 2019, 12:38:56 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 29, 2019, 11:27:00 AM
Quote from: kalvado on April 29, 2019, 11:18:21 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 29, 2019, 11:13:59 AM
If I-490 is all below-grade through Rochester, why wasn't I-81 designed in the same manner
not sure, but tunnel is specifically said to be difficult due to ground water being close to surface. Since most of upstate cities are in river valleys, and Syracuse being specifically on a lakeshore, I wouldn't be surprised if that complicates any construction below the ground level
Rochester's water table isn't too good either.
Looking at topo maps, Rochester should be way better:
http://nyfalls.com/maps/ny-maps-topo-100000/#Rochester
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 29, 2019, 12:41:28 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 29, 2019, 12:38:56 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 29, 2019, 11:27:00 AM
Quote from: kalvado on April 29, 2019, 11:18:21 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 29, 2019, 11:13:59 AM
If I-490 is all below-grade through Rochester, why wasn't I-81 designed in the same manner
not sure, but tunnel is specifically said to be difficult due to ground water being close to surface. Since most of upstate cities are in river valleys, and Syracuse being specifically on a lakeshore, I wouldn't be surprised if that complicates any construction below the ground level
Rochester's water table isn't too good either.
Looking at topo maps, Rochester should be way better:
http://nyfalls.com/maps/ny-maps-topo-100000/#Rochester


How do you figure that?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 29, 2019, 12:50:46 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 29, 2019, 12:41:28 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 29, 2019, 12:38:56 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 29, 2019, 11:27:00 AM
Quote from: kalvado on April 29, 2019, 11:18:21 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 29, 2019, 11:13:59 AM
If I-490 is all below-grade through Rochester, why wasn't I-81 designed in the same manner
not sure, but tunnel is specifically said to be difficult due to ground water being close to surface. Since most of upstate cities are in river valleys, and Syracuse being specifically on a lakeshore, I wouldn't be surprised if that complicates any construction below the ground level
Rochester's water table isn't too good either.
Looking at topo maps, Rochester should be way better:
http://nyfalls.com/maps/ny-maps-topo-100000/#Rochester


How do you figure that?
Lake surface in Rochester is marked 74.8 - I assume average number, since lake fluctuate; and 100 contour goes pretty much parallel to the lake shore. I am not really familiar with Rochester, but as a single point: 390/490  seems to be above 150 mark

Syracuse has Onondago lake at 111  mark according to the map, and 150 contour seems to the east of I-81, hard to say with city grid overlayed.

Those are in meters, as far as I can tell.
Water table should be at least not below the lake level..
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on April 29, 2019, 01:11:13 PM
Quote from: sparker on April 28, 2019, 08:50:16 PM
^^^^^^^^
If indeed the Syracuse population continues to decrease, urbanists may be inclined to preside (or attempt to do so) over a city "transfiguration" into a format built around the university and geared toward the regional service sector, since manufacturing has essentially left the area.  If so, there's a distinct possibililty that attention may be turned toward I-690 as the singular feature of the "old way of doing things" remaining in the city core; placing that facility on the chopping block (wholly or partially) might be on the agenda within a decade or two.
I wouldn't be surprised.  I've already read at least one article where someone mentioned wanting to do that.  At least I-690 will be in much better shape.  Still, the current redecking project might not save the Buffalo Skyway, so we can't count anything out.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on April 29, 2019, 02:23:25 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 28, 2019, 08:08:11 PM
Next, they'll want to demolish I-95 through Downtown Richmond, construct a community grid, and route I-95 on I-295 (ironically, that was the original plan when I-295 was built in the 80s). I-95 divides our neighborhoods, tear it down! (even though most of it isn't elevated)

That was the interim plan, when justifying the I-295 extension to south of Petersburg in the late 1970s, an I-95 Bypass.  The Richmond bypass was I-295 in the late 1950s and every segment opened as I-295.  There was never any plan to move the I-64 designation out of the downtown, and the Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike south of the downtown would have been renumbered in the late 1970s plan.

The I-95 James River Bridge was reconstructed 1999-2002 and all the I-95 RPT bridges north of there were reconstructed 2010-14.  It is no more going away than is I-264 in Portsmouth, Norfolk and VA Beach.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 29, 2019, 04:12:16 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 29, 2019, 12:13:50 PM
Pfft.  Your beliefs are quite unique.  Rochester had Kodak go kaput and Syracuse has just had a slow bleed over the decades.  Both economically hurting cities are in the Rust Belt with Buffalo.

For the most part, I know Rust Belt when I see it - such as on I-190 in Buffalo - and Rochester certainly isn't.

I wouldn't say Rochester is exactly hurting, either. It's a lot more white collar than Buffalo, was basically unaffected - relative to the rest of the US -  by the 2008 recession, and the way the whole region adapted to the loss of Kodak was nothing short of amazing.

Syracuse has its fair share of issues, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it Rust Belt either.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: hotdogPi on April 29, 2019, 04:13:57 PM
A city doesn't have to be part of the Rust Belt to see decline in the last two decades – just look at Iowa.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on April 29, 2019, 05:10:40 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 29, 2019, 04:12:16 PM
For the most part, I know Rust Belt when I see it - such as on I-190 in Buffalo - and Rochester certainly isn't.
I wouldn't say Rochester is exactly hurting, either. It's a lot more white collar than Buffalo, was basically unaffected - relative to the rest of the US -  by the 2008 recession, and the way the whole region adapted to the loss of Kodak was nothing short of amazing.
Syracuse has its fair share of issues, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it Rust Belt either.

Common definitions would put all those metro areas in the rust belt, in terms of percentage of job loss since the 1950s --
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_Belt
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 29, 2019, 06:24:44 PM
Quote from: Beltway on April 29, 2019, 05:10:40 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 29, 2019, 04:12:16 PM
For the most part, I know Rust Belt when I see it - such as on I-190 in Buffalo - and Rochester certainly isn't.
I wouldn't say Rochester is exactly hurting, either. It's a lot more white collar than Buffalo, was basically unaffected - relative to the rest of the US -  by the 2008 recession, and the way the whole region adapted to the loss of Kodak was nothing short of amazing.
Syracuse has its fair share of issues, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it Rust Belt either.

Common definitions would put all those metro areas in the rust belt, in terms of percentage of job loss since the 1950s --
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_Belt
Like I said, his opinion is unique.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on April 29, 2019, 08:34:36 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 29, 2019, 04:12:16 PM
was basically unaffected - relative to the rest of the US -  by the 2008 recession
Also basically unaffected by the 2000s housing boom.  The economy is flatter than the rest of the country, which is great for stability, but in our growth-oriented society, the lack of the boom phases is viewed like kryptonite.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on April 30, 2019, 12:50:40 AM
Even though Eastman/Kodak is in precipitous decline, Rochester, thanks to R.I.T., has a burgeoning electronics industry -- particularly in regards to analog circuits.  Several high-end audio companies (Convergent Technologies, Power Modules/Belles, Marchand) have greater Rochester as their base of operations; Ashly, a maker of pro sound reinforcement equipment, is also located in the area (all of the companies' founders/designers came out of R.I.T., which is renowned for their analog engineering program).  And several component manufacturers are located in the region as well; while it's not Silicon Valley or even Seattle by any means, it does have a high concentration of high-tech manufacturing and distribution.  It's likely Rochester will hang on even though nearby metro areas (Syracuse, of course, Buffalo, Utica/Rome) find themselves constantly shedding employment opportunities and subsequently population.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: GenExpwy on April 30, 2019, 02:40:40 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 29, 2019, 11:13:59 AM
If I-490 is all below-grade through Rochester, why wasn't I-81 designed in the same manner

I-490 (east from downtown) uses a ditch that had already existed. It was built as the original route of the Erie Canal. After the canal was re-routed from downtown in 1918, it was used for the Rochester Subway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochester_Subway). After the Subway went out of business in 1956, I-490 took over the grade-separated path.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 30, 2019, 07:46:54 AM
Quote from: sparker on April 30, 2019, 12:50:40 AM
Even though Eastman/Kodak is in precipitous decline, Rochester, thanks to R.I.T., has a burgeoning electronics industry -- particularly in regards to analog circuits.  Several high-end audio companies (Convergent Technologies, Power Modules/Belles, Marchand) have greater Rochester as their base of operations; Ashly, a maker of pro sound reinforcement equipment, is also located in the area (all of the companies' founders/designers came out of R.I.T., which is renowned for their analog engineering program).  And several component manufacturers are located in the region as well; while it's not Silicon Valley or even Seattle by any means, it does have a high concentration of high-tech manufacturing and distribution.  It's likely Rochester will hang on even though nearby metro areas (Syracuse, of course, Buffalo, Utica/Rome) find themselves constantly shedding employment opportunities and subsequently population.
Can we all agree that Utica is as rusty as the Rust Belt gets? :D

Although Rochester has some glimmers of hope, the fact of the matter is the upstate cities as a whole have pitiful growth, if any.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 30, 2019, 08:12:03 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 30, 2019, 07:46:54 AM
Quote from: sparker on April 30, 2019, 12:50:40 AM
Even though Eastman/Kodak is in precipitous decline, Rochester, thanks to R.I.T., has a burgeoning electronics industry -- particularly in regards to analog circuits.  Several high-end audio companies (Convergent Technologies, Power Modules/Belles, Marchand) have greater Rochester as their base of operations; Ashly, a maker of pro sound reinforcement equipment, is also located in the area (all of the companies' founders/designers came out of R.I.T., which is renowned for their analog engineering program).  And several component manufacturers are located in the region as well; while it's not Silicon Valley or even Seattle by any means, it does have a high concentration of high-tech manufacturing and distribution.  It's likely Rochester will hang on even though nearby metro areas (Syracuse, of course, Buffalo, Utica/Rome) find themselves constantly shedding employment opportunities and subsequently population.
Can we all agree that Utica is as rusty as the Rust Belt gets? :D

Although Rochester has some glimmers of hope, the fact of the matter is the upstate cities as a whole have pitiful growth, if any.
big and heavy chart showing some trends among states:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/US_state_historical_population_FRED_SMIL.svg
population wise, last census estimate NYS is now in red - despite NYC attracting domestic and international migration. only a few upstate counties - notably Saratoga-  show population growth, the rest of upstate is depopulating.
this is not about growth for the sake of growth, this is about people actively moving out.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 30, 2019, 08:36:07 AM
Quote from: Beltway on April 29, 2019, 05:10:40 PM
Common definitions would put all those metro areas in the rust belt, in terms of percentage of job loss since the 1950s --
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_Belt
All about context: Losing half of 5,000 mfg jobs doesn't make a city part of the Rust Belt, while losing half of 200,000 mfg jobs probably does.


Quote from: Rothman on April 30, 2019, 07:46:54 AM
Can we all agree that Utica is as rusty as the Rust Belt gets? :D
Certainly, we can agree that it has all -- or at least most -- of the characteristics of a Rust Belt city, as does Binghamton. As far as location, however, it is east (and arguably north) of most definitions of the Rust Belt.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 30, 2019, 08:43:49 AM
Quote from: kalvado on April 30, 2019, 08:12:03 AM
big and heavy chart showing some trends among states:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/US_state_historical_population_FRED_SMIL.svg
population wise, last census estimate NYS is now in red - despite NYC attracting domestic and international migration. only a few upstate counties - notably Saratoga-  show population growth, the rest of upstate is depopulating.
this is not about growth for the sake of growth, this is about people actively moving out.

It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses. If I recall correctly, about 10 of 50 or so Upstate counties are growing; Tompkins (Ithaca), and Ontario (Rochester suburbs, Canandaigua) being the most notable ones besides Saratoga.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on April 30, 2019, 12:52:52 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 30, 2019, 08:43:49 AM
It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses. If I recall correctly, about 10 of 50 or so Upstate counties are growing; Tompkins (Ithaca), and Ontario (Rochester suburbs, Canandaigua) being the most notable ones besides Saratoga.

Buffalo city has lost 1/2 of its population since 1950.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on April 30, 2019, 04:43:24 PM
Quote from: Beltway on April 30, 2019, 12:52:52 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 30, 2019, 08:43:49 AM
It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses. If I recall correctly, about 10 of 50 or so Upstate counties are growing; Tompkins (Ithaca), and Ontario (Rochester suburbs, Canandaigua) being the most notable ones besides Saratoga.

Buffalo city has lost 1/2 of its population since 1950.

Within NY state, Buffalo is the leading "poster child" for urban population decrease over the last 7 decades; but the same phenomenon has, of course, affected Pittsburgh (down about 58%), Cleveland (losing about 63%), and other major Northeast and Great Lakes cities.  Baltimore would be in that group as well, but the presence of its port facilities as an employment center has managed to trim its losses to under 50% of its peak of over 900K back in 1950.  Besides the basic loss of manufacturing jobs, much of what remains has been subject to considerable automation -- particularly within the automotive industry, as well as such things as CNC machining and fabrication, which obviates the need for large numbers of workers setting up jigs and operating lathes and routers.   Despite any efforts to rebalance overseas trade and curtail offshore subcontracting, most of these jobs are simply not coming back; they're just not there any more. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 30, 2019, 06:49:58 PM
Quote from: Beltway on April 30, 2019, 12:52:52 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 30, 2019, 08:43:49 AM
It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses.
Buffalo city has lost 1/2 of its population since 1950.

I should have been more clear that I was referring to recent trends (2000 - present), not long-term ones.
Looking at the entire metro area instead of just the city limits also puts it in the proper perspective. Erie County has more residents now than it did in 1950. It actually peaked in 1970 before declining, bottoming out around 2010, and rebounding slightly between 2010 and present.

So, yeah, all that basically just confirms what I already said  :-D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on April 30, 2019, 07:05:27 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 30, 2019, 06:49:58 PM
Quote from: Beltway on April 30, 2019, 12:52:52 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 30, 2019, 08:43:49 AM
It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses.
Buffalo city has lost 1/2 of its population since 1950.

I should have been more clear that I was referring to recent trends (2000 - present), not long-term ones.
Looking at the entire metro area instead of just the city limits also puts it in the proper perspective. Erie County has more residents now than it did in 1950. It actually peaked in 1970 before declining, bottoming out around 2010, and rebounding slightly between 2010 and present.

So, yeah, all that basically just confirms what I already said  :-D
Buffalo MSA, according to census estimates, shows some variation with a slight downward trend, and a loss of about 0.5% of population in 2010-2018 period. That is on top of -3.5% in 2000-2010 period and -1.6% in 1990-2000 period.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on May 01, 2019, 02:25:03 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 30, 2019, 07:05:27 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 30, 2019, 06:49:58 PM
Quote from: Beltway on April 30, 2019, 12:52:52 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 30, 2019, 08:43:49 AM
It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses.
Buffalo city has lost 1/2 of its population since 1950.
I should have been more clear that I was referring to recent trends (2000 - present), not long-term ones.
Looking at the entire metro area instead of just the city limits also puts it in the proper perspective. Erie County has more residents now than it did in 1950. It actually peaked in 1970 before declining, bottoming out around 2010, and rebounding slightly between 2010 and present.
So, yeah, all that basically just confirms what I already said  :-D
Buffalo MSA, according to census estimates, shows some variation with a slight downward trend, and a loss of about 0.5% of population in 2010-2018 period. That is on top of -3.5% in 2000-2010 period and -1.6% in 1990-2000 period.

FWIW, here is my source: http://worldpopulationreview.com/us-counties/ny/erie-county-population/
The metro as a whole includes Niagara County, which probably skews the figures in a negative direction. The city of Niagara Falls is as bad off or even worse off than the city of Buffalo (IMO).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: RobbieL2415 on May 02, 2019, 12:08:37 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 01, 2019, 02:25:03 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 30, 2019, 07:05:27 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 30, 2019, 06:49:58 PM
Quote from: Beltway on April 30, 2019, 12:52:52 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 30, 2019, 08:43:49 AM
It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses.
Buffalo city has lost 1/2 of its population since 1950.
I should have been more clear that I was referring to recent trends (2000 - present), not long-term ones.
Looking at the entire metro area instead of just the city limits also puts it in the proper perspective. Erie County has more residents now than it did in 1950. It actually peaked in 1970 before declining, bottoming out around 2010, and rebounding slightly between 2010 and present.
So, yeah, all that basically just confirms what I already said  :-D
Buffalo MSA, according to census estimates, shows some variation with a slight downward trend, and a loss of about 0.5% of population in 2010-2018 period. That is on top of -3.5% in 2000-2010 period and -1.6% in 1990-2000 period.

FWIW, here is my source: http://worldpopulationreview.com/us-counties/ny/erie-county-population/
The metro as a whole includes Niagara County, which probably skews the figures in a negative direction. The city of Niagara Falls is as bad off or even worse off than the city of Buffalo (IMO).
I second this.  Niagara Falls has a serious blight and drug problems.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kevinb1994 on May 02, 2019, 12:32:17 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 02, 2019, 12:08:37 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 01, 2019, 02:25:03 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 30, 2019, 07:05:27 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 30, 2019, 06:49:58 PM
Quote from: Beltway on April 30, 2019, 12:52:52 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 30, 2019, 08:43:49 AM
It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses.
Buffalo city has lost 1/2 of its population since 1950.
I should have been more clear that I was referring to recent trends (2000 - present), not long-term ones.
Looking at the entire metro area instead of just the city limits also puts it in the proper perspective. Erie County has more residents now than it did in 1950. It actually peaked in 1970 before declining, bottoming out around 2010, and rebounding slightly between 2010 and present.
So, yeah, all that basically just confirms what I already said  :-D
Buffalo MSA, according to census estimates, shows some variation with a slight downward trend, and a loss of about 0.5% of population in 2010-2018 period. That is on top of -3.5% in 2000-2010 period and -1.6% in 1990-2000 period.

FWIW, here is my source: http://worldpopulationreview.com/us-counties/ny/erie-county-population/
The metro as a whole includes Niagara County, which probably skews the figures in a negative direction. The city of Niagara Falls is as bad off or even worse off than the city of Buffalo (IMO).
I second this.  Niagara Falls has a serious blight and drug problems.

Not to mention a serious hospitality problem. I once stayed at the Howard Johnson (HoJo) for one night only with family and the place was run-down and had a bunch of flying insects in the elevator. Gross. Never again. Thankfully we ended up crossing the border into the Canadian side of Niagara Falls where we stayed at the Hilton Fallsview location and got moved into another room there for some reason that I do not recall (as I was young at the time).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 02, 2019, 06:02:25 AM
Quote from: kevinb1994 on May 02, 2019, 12:32:17 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 02, 2019, 12:08:37 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 01, 2019, 02:25:03 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 30, 2019, 07:05:27 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 30, 2019, 06:49:58 PM
Quote from: Beltway on April 30, 2019, 12:52:52 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 30, 2019, 08:43:49 AM
It is actually rural areas that have been losing people at the fastest rate, while urban areas as a whole tend to remain stagnant or post small losses.
Buffalo city has lost 1/2 of its population since 1950.
I should have been more clear that I was referring to recent trends (2000 - present), not long-term ones.
Looking at the entire metro area instead of just the city limits also puts it in the proper perspective. Erie County has more residents now than it did in 1950. It actually peaked in 1970 before declining, bottoming out around 2010, and rebounding slightly between 2010 and present.
So, yeah, all that basically just confirms what I already said  :-D
Buffalo MSA, according to census estimates, shows some variation with a slight downward trend, and a loss of about 0.5% of population in 2010-2018 period. That is on top of -3.5% in 2000-2010 period and -1.6% in 1990-2000 period.

FWIW, here is my source: http://worldpopulationreview.com/us-counties/ny/erie-county-population/
The metro as a whole includes Niagara County, which probably skews the figures in a negative direction. The city of Niagara Falls is as bad off or even worse off than the city of Buffalo (IMO).
I second this.  Niagara Falls has a serious blight and drug problems.

Not to mention a serious hospitality problem. I once stayed at the Howard Johnson (HoJo) for one night only with family and the place was run-down and had a bunch of flying insects in the elevator. Gross. Never again. Thankfully we ended up crossing the border into the Canadian side of Niagara Falls where we stayed at the Hilton Fallsview location and got moved into another room there for some reason that I do not recall (as I was young at the time).
There will be a whole new world of resurrection and community revival once Robert Moses parkway is gone! [ /sarcasm]
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on May 02, 2019, 07:16:10 AM
No, but it does remove a higher speed expressway (Moses never intended it to be a slow-speed parkway) that once ran through the -heart- of Niagara Falls State Park and through the heart of several other reservations. The parks, and all that they represent are much better off without Moses expressways.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 02, 2019, 07:43:40 AM
Quote from: seicer on May 02, 2019, 07:16:10 AM
No, but it does remove a higher speed expressway (Moses never intended it to be a slow-speed parkway) that once ran through the -heart- of Niagara Falls State Park and through the heart of several other reservations. The parks, and all that they represent are much better off without Moses expressways.
Niagara Falls park will win big time if there is something resembling basic service. Reshaping park so that it serves 5000 locals better is a great idea, but don't cry out loud if it reduces revenue from millions of tourists while community looses jobs and people move out.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Jim on May 02, 2019, 07:57:02 AM
Sorry to continue this off-thread-topic diversion, but I have always been amazed that Niagara Falls has managed to be such a failure when it has the giant advantage of being home to a world-class tourist attraction.  I know the better views of the falls are on the other side and that's where the tourists want to be, but there's enough on the NY side worth seeing and doing that the city/region/state should have been able to leverage that into at least making the city a decent place.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on May 02, 2019, 08:37:58 AM
Quote from: Jim on May 02, 2019, 07:57:02 AM
I know the better views of the falls are on the other side and that's where the tourists want to be, but there's enough on the NY side worth seeing and doing that the city/region/state should have been able to leverage that into at least making the city a decent place.

In some ways - views aside - the NY side is almost better than the Ontario side; the four highlights being Goat Island, Maid of the Mist, Cave of the Winds, and the Observation Tower. While the State Park is nice and has seen substantial investment, it isn't enough on its own to prevent the city at large from going the same direction as the rest of the Rust Belt in the last half of the 20th century. The city is also awkwardly positioned to benefit from the flow of tourists; the two best routes to Niagara Falls USA are the Rainbow Bridge and the former RMSP (now Niagara Scenic Parkway). Neither of those routes pass through the most depressed areas of the city, so neither the state nor local residents have any tourism-related incentive to improve said areas. (IMO)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 02, 2019, 08:40:22 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 02, 2019, 08:37:58 AM
Quote from: Jim on May 02, 2019, 07:57:02 AM
I know the better views of the falls are on the other side and that's where the tourists want to be, but there's enough on the NY side worth seeing and doing that the city/region/state should have been able to leverage that into at least making the city a decent place.

In some ways - views aside - the NY side is almost better than the Ontario side; the four highlights being Goat Island, Maid of the Mist, Cave of the Winds, and the Observation Tower. While the State Park is nice and has seen substantial investment, it isn't enough on its own to prevent the city at large from going the same direction as the rest of the Rust Belt in the last half of the 20th century. The city is also awkwardly positioned to benefit from the flow of tourists; the two best routes to Niagara Falls USA are the Rainbow Bridge and the former RMSP (now Niagara Scenic Parkway). Neither of those routes pass through the most depressed areas of the city, so neither the state nor local residents have any tourism-related incentive to improve said areas. (IMO)
You realize that maid of the mist flies a maple leaf flag?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 02, 2019, 08:49:12 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 02, 2019, 08:40:22 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 02, 2019, 08:37:58 AM
Quote from: Jim on May 02, 2019, 07:57:02 AM
I know the better views of the falls are on the other side and that's where the tourists want to be, but there's enough on the NY side worth seeing and doing that the city/region/state should have been able to leverage that into at least making the city a decent place.

In some ways - views aside - the NY side is almost better than the Ontario side; the four highlights being Goat Island, Maid of the Mist, Cave of the Winds, and the Observation Tower. While the State Park is nice and has seen substantial investment, it isn't enough on its own to prevent the city at large from going the same direction as the rest of the Rust Belt in the last half of the 20th century. The city is also awkwardly positioned to benefit from the flow of tourists; the two best routes to Niagara Falls USA are the Rainbow Bridge and the former RMSP (now Niagara Scenic Parkway). Neither of those routes pass through the most depressed areas of the city, so neither the state nor local residents have any tourism-related incentive to improve said areas. (IMO)
You realize that maid of the mist flies a maple leaf flag?

Hm.  Makes me wonder if they have more boardings from the American or Canadian side.  Still, I don't see why their maple leaf flag matters in the context that was mentioned?

I'm probably missing a joke here somewhere. :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on May 02, 2019, 09:12:56 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 02, 2019, 07:43:40 AM
Quote from: seicer on May 02, 2019, 07:16:10 AM
No, but it does remove a higher speed expressway (Moses never intended it to be a slow-speed parkway) that once ran through the -heart- of Niagara Falls State Park and through the heart of several other reservations. The parks, and all that they represent are much better off without Moses expressways.
Niagara Falls park will win big time if there is something resembling basic service. Reshaping park so that it serves 5000 locals better is a great idea, but don't cry out loud if it reduces revenue from millions of tourists while community looses jobs and people move out.

Except your down-and-out posts are not backed by facts (http://lohud.nydatabases.com/database/new-york-state-park-attendance) (2017 versus 2016). It had basically flat attendance but comparing it year-to-year is comparing apples-to-oranges as there are many variables that can lead to attendance changes; it must be looked at over a lengthy time period. Fact is, 9.4 million visited Niagara Falls State Park (excluding the countless other parks in the area). And the state has been expending $70 million on upgrades to the park itself, part of a $1 billion park system upgrade.

I bet you complained when they removed that awful parking lot in the front of Watkins Glen State Park last year when they overhauled the entrance.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on May 02, 2019, 09:19:25 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 02, 2019, 08:40:22 AM
You realize that maid of the mist flies a maple leaf flag?

I do; it operates on both sides of the border, but that doesn't prevent it from being a highlight of the US side.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 02, 2019, 09:22:58 AM
Quote from: Rothman on May 02, 2019, 08:49:12 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 02, 2019, 08:40:22 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 02, 2019, 08:37:58 AM
In some ways - views aside - the NY side is almost better than the Ontario side; the four highlights being Goat Island, Maid of the Mist, Cave of the Winds, and the Observation Tower. [..]
You realize that maid of the mist flies a maple leaf flag?

Hm.  Makes me wonder if they have more boardings from the American or Canadian side.  Still, I don't see why their maple leaf flag matters in the context that was mentioned?

I'm probably missing a joke here somewhere. :D
I just was pointing out that out of 4 highlights which supposinly make
Quote
NY side is almost better than the Ontario side
At least one is not only available on the other side, but is actually provided by the other side.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 02, 2019, 09:34:17 AM
Heh.  I still wonder if more people board it from the American side.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 02, 2019, 10:30:47 AM
Quote from: Rothman on May 02, 2019, 09:34:17 AM
Heh.  I still wonder if more people board it from the American side.
I just learned that Maid of the mist no longer runs from Ontario, only NY . Images I see are still with maple leaf flag, though.
Anyway, I see ridership of 2.2 million for Hornblower on Canada side and 1.7 million for MotM on US side. US ridership is quoted to be on the rise due to increased border security and lower fee NY parks charge (8% vs 22.5% in Canada)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 02, 2019, 10:36:59 AM
So, MotM is all NY. :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on May 02, 2019, 01:49:54 PM
^ If they're flying a Canadian flag, means they're registered in Canada.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 02, 2019, 01:56:16 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 02, 2019, 01:49:54 PM
^ If they're flying a Canadian flag, means they're registered in Canada.

And operating in NY.  Can't even catch the boat in Canada. :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on May 02, 2019, 01:57:49 PM
In the maritime world, where a boat/ship is flagged from and where it operates are often two very different locations.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 02, 2019, 02:53:02 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 02, 2019, 01:57:49 PM
In the maritime world, where a boat/ship is flagged from and where it operates are often two very different locations.
Actually it is even more interesting as US to US port trip is a cabotage, and non-US flagged ships are explicitly banned from that. Ever wonder why a week long Caribbean cruise is cheaper than 3-day Mississippi one?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 02, 2019, 09:28:14 PM
Quote from: Jim on May 02, 2019, 07:57:02 AM
Sorry to continue this off-thread-topic diversion, but I have always been amazed that Niagara Falls has managed to be such a failure when it has the giant advantage of being home to a world-class tourist attraction.  I know the better views of the falls are on the other side and that's where the tourists want to be, but there's enough on the NY side worth seeing and doing that the city/region/state should have been able to leverage that into at least making the city a decent place.

True indeed.  For someone like me who does not have a passport and who does not live in a border state, the American Falls is where I would go and only there.  Can't go to Canada without a passport.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 02, 2019, 11:30:05 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 02, 2019, 09:28:14 PM
Quote from: Jim on May 02, 2019, 07:57:02 AM
Sorry to continue this off-thread-topic diversion, but I have always been amazed that Niagara Falls has managed to be such a failure when it has the giant advantage of being home to a world-class tourist attraction.  I know the better views of the falls are on the other side and that's where the tourists want to be, but there's enough on the NY side worth seeing and doing that the city/region/state should have been able to leverage that into at least making the city a decent place.

True indeed.  For someone like me who does not have a passport and who does not live in a border state, the American Falls is where I would go and only there.  Can't go to Canada without a passport.
Agreed. I remember visiting Niagara Falls in the early 2000s before a passport was required to cross the border. Simply proper ID and that was it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 02, 2019, 11:53:53 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 02, 2019, 11:30:05 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 02, 2019, 09:28:14 PM
For someone like me who does not have a passport and who does not live in a border state, the American Falls is where I would go and only there.  Can't go to Canada without a passport.
Agreed. I remember visiting Niagara Falls in the early 2000s before a passport was required to cross the border. Simply proper ID and that was it.

My first trip to the Buffalo area was in 2008.  Needed a passport at that point.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 03, 2019, 12:26:12 AM
Quote from: Beltway on May 02, 2019, 11:53:53 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 02, 2019, 11:30:05 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 02, 2019, 09:28:14 PM
For someone like me who does not have a passport and who does not live in a border state, the American Falls is where I would go and only there.  Can't go to Canada without a passport.
Agreed. I remember visiting Niagara Falls in the early 2000s before a passport was required to cross the border. Simply proper ID and that was it.

My first trip to the Buffalo area was in 2008.  Needed a passport at that point.
The requirement for needing a passport came in 2009. In 2008, you needed either a passport or some proof of citizenship.

https://www.foxnews.com/story/passports-mandatory-at-mexico-canada-borders
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 03, 2019, 01:21:36 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 03, 2019, 12:26:12 AM
Quote from: Beltway on May 02, 2019, 11:53:53 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 02, 2019, 11:30:05 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 02, 2019, 09:28:14 PM
For someone like me who does not have a passport and who does not live in a border state, the American Falls is where I would go and only there.  Can't go to Canada without a passport.
Agreed. I remember visiting Niagara Falls in the early 2000s before a passport was required to cross the border. Simply proper ID and that was it.
My first trip to the Buffalo area was in 2008.  Needed a passport at that point.
The requirement for needing a passport came in 2009. In 2008, you needed either a passport or some proof of citizenship.

It was probably 2009 before I made my first trip to the falls.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: amroad17 on May 03, 2019, 02:25:32 AM
First time I went to Niagara Falls was in 1969 (at age 7) and again in 1971.  My family visited both sides then.  The next time was in 2017 along with my wife, who enjoyed her first ever visit to the Falls.  We went to the American side only.

I did notice that both Buffalo and Niagara Falls seem a bit "run down" while driving back to Seneca Falls, where we were staying two years ago.  The area around the Falls wasn't bad as it had that "tourist attraction" feel.  However, the farther east we drove on NY 384, the "run down" was very noticeable.  We took the LaSalle Expy east, driving by Love Canal, then continued on NY 384/NY 265.  The further east/southeast we went, the appearance of the area did get better.

Anyway, let's turn our attention 160 miles east of Niagara Falls and opine as to what is going on with that viaduct.  :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on May 03, 2019, 07:41:55 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on May 03, 2019, 02:25:32 AM
First time I went to Niagara Falls was in 1969 (at age 7) and again in 1971.  My family visited both sides then.  The next time was in 2017 along with my wife, who enjoyed her first ever visit to the Falls.  We went to the American side only.

I did notice that both Buffalo and Niagara Falls seem a bit "run down" while driving back to Seneca Falls, where we were staying two years ago.  The area around the Falls wasn't bad as it had that "tourist attraction" feel.  However, the farther east we drove on NY 384, the "run down" was very noticeable.  We took the LaSalle Expy east, driving by Love Canal, then continued on NY 384/NY 265.  The further east/southeast we went, the appearance of the area did get better.

Anyway, let's turn our attention 160 miles east of Niagara Falls and opine as to what is going on with that viaduct.  :D

But first let me get in my two cents about the Falls.  My HS class (30 strong including me, plus two teacher-chaperons) went there on our senior trip in the spring of 1979.  Our (private) school was in the Philly area and we went up the PA Tpk. NE Ext. and I-81 to the Thruway, then west.  Which meant we traversed the Syracuse viaduct!

ixnay
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Jim on May 03, 2019, 07:56:41 AM
Maybe Syracuse should convert part of I-81 into a waterfall to bring in the tourists.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 03, 2019, 08:19:08 AM
Quote from: Jim on May 03, 2019, 07:56:41 AM
Maybe Syracuse should convert part of I-81 into a waterfall to bring in the tourists.
There is a Taughannock Falls not far from Syracuse, at 215 feet it is said to be the tallest waterfall east of Rockies.
Maybe they can relocate that to downtown?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Verlanka on May 03, 2019, 08:58:18 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 03, 2019, 08:19:08 AM
Quote from: Jim on May 03, 2019, 07:56:41 AM
Maybe Syracuse should convert part of I-81 into a waterfall to bring in the tourists.
There is a Taughannock Falls not far from Syracuse, at 215 feet it is said to be the tallest waterfall east of Rockies.
Maybe they can relocate that to downtown?
Yeah right. :-D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on May 03, 2019, 10:49:45 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 03, 2019, 08:19:08 AM
Quote from: Jim on May 03, 2019, 07:56:41 AM
Maybe Syracuse should convert part of I-81 into a waterfall to bring in the tourists.
There is a Taughannock Falls not far from Syracuse, at 215 feet it is said to be the tallest waterfall east of Rockies.
Maybe they can relocate that to downtown?
They would sooner make it an at-grade river.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 03, 2019, 12:32:26 PM
Quote from: Alps on May 03, 2019, 10:49:45 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 03, 2019, 08:19:08 AM
Quote from: Jim on May 03, 2019, 07:56:41 AM
Maybe Syracuse should convert part of I-81 into a waterfall to bring in the tourists.
There is a Taughannock Falls not far from Syracuse, at 215 feet it is said to be the tallest waterfall east of Rockies.
Maybe they can relocate that to downtown?
They would sooner make it an at-grade river.
And will split the flow into community creeks. Once construction of Venice is complete, Syracuse will become tourist destination, eclipsing Niagara.
Sounds like a plan! 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: amroad17 on May 04, 2019, 04:26:36 AM
Quote from: Alps on May 03, 2019, 10:49:45 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 03, 2019, 08:19:08 AM
Quote from: Jim on May 03, 2019, 07:56:41 AM
Maybe Syracuse should convert part of I-81 into a waterfall to bring in the tourists.
There is a Taughannock Falls not far from Syracuse, at 215 feet it is said to be the tallest waterfall east of Rockies.
Maybe they can relocate that to downtown?
They would sooner make it an at-grade river.
There could be a river through downtown Syracuse if they dug deep enough.  The water table is not far below the streets there.  Probably one reason the tunnel option wasn't viable.

Speaking of Taughannock Falls, my wife and I visited there on our honeymoon in 1987.  I took one photo of her in which she was sitting, looking back at me with the falls in the background.  We visited again in 2015 and 2017, recreating the photo both times.  Nice little hike (3/4 of a mile each way) to get to the falls and back.  Yes, Taughannock Falls is 33 feet higher than Niagara Falls and is the tallest east of the Rockies.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on May 04, 2019, 03:28:25 PM
This past week, The Simpsons' song about Upstate NY was all over the news.  When I watched the video of it, I thought that the railing on the bridge that Homer was driving on looked an awful lot like the railing on the viaduct and other bridges in downtown Syracuse.

Compare this picture to the actual viaduct (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0465013,-76.1426197,3a,30.2y,266.19h,71.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s63WhgJrsf8a7abbJ9S5IGg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656):
(https://13wham.com/resources/media/1ed1e102-575a-4f7b-9326-0a29a2839e4a-medium16x9_Simpsons_bridge.jpg)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 04, 2019, 03:41:16 PM
Quote from: Michael on May 04, 2019, 03:28:25 PM
This past week, The Simpsons' song about Upstate NY was all over the news.  When I watched the video of it, I thought that the railing on the bridge that Homer was driving on looked an awful lot like the railing on the viaduct and other bridges in downtown Syracuse.

Compare this picture to the actual viaduct (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0465013,-76.1426197,3a,30.2y,266.19h,71.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s63WhgJrsf8a7abbJ9S5IGg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656):
(https://13wham.com/resources/media/1ed1e102-575a-4f7b-9326-0a29a2839e4a-medium16x9_Simpsons_bridge.jpg)
Can be about 787 in Albany as well:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6564639,-73.7431145,3a,75y,288.34h,73.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSWEVvVFSF1Kp5SOQwCovMw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

And unlike viaduct, 787 did make an actual somewhat successful attempt to fall apart.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: DJStephens on May 13, 2019, 08:26:54 AM
Quote from: Michael on May 04, 2019, 03:28:25 PM
This past week, The Simpsons' song about Upstate NY was all over the news.  When I watched the video of it, I thought that the railing on the bridge that Homer was driving on looked an awful lot like the railing on the viaduct and other bridges in downtown Syracuse.

Compare this picture to the actual viaduct (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0465013,-76.1426197,3a,30.2y,266.19h,71.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s63WhgJrsf8a7abbJ9S5IGg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656):
(https://13wham.com/resources/media/1ed1e102-575a-4f7b-9326-0a29a2839e4a-medium16x9_Simpsons_bridge.jpg)

    Very likely non of the reinforcing steel (rebar) in that original viaduct structure was epoxy coated.  Perhaps in a later redeck, but originally, no.  Seems crazy today, but that was the way it was - late fifties and through sixties, while there was a big push to get the roads built.   
   The original founders of the roads also did not foresee the vast increase in traffic, and heavy trucking, in many areas that would significantly shorten the lives of many bridges. 
   Did see something on the "streetsblog" site recently - dated April 26th - that a decision had been made to dismantle the viaduct and route through traffic around the city on the west bypass or 481. Any confirmation on that, or is it just wishful thinking by those in the streetsblog site?     
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 13, 2019, 08:44:23 AM
Quote from: DJStephens on May 13, 2019, 08:26:54 AM
Quote from: Michael on May 04, 2019, 03:28:25 PM
This past week, The Simpsons' song about Upstate NY was all over the news.  When I watched the video of it, I thought that the railing on the bridge that Homer was driving on looked an awful lot like the railing on the viaduct and other bridges in downtown Syracuse.

Compare this picture to the actual viaduct (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0465013,-76.1426197,3a,30.2y,266.19h,71.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s63WhgJrsf8a7abbJ9S5IGg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656):
(https://13wham.com/resources/media/1ed1e102-575a-4f7b-9326-0a29a2839e4a-medium16x9_Simpsons_bridge.jpg)

    Very likely non of the reinforcing steel (rebar) in that original viaduct structure was epoxy coated.  Perhaps in a later redeck, but originally, no.  Seems crazy today, but that was the way it was - late fifties and through sixties, while there was a big push to get the roads built.   
   The original founders of the roads also did not foresee the vast increase in traffic, and heavy trucking, in many areas that would significantly shorten the lives of many bridges. 
   Did see something on the "streetsblog" site recently - dated April 26th - that a decision had been made to dismantle the viaduct and route through traffic around the city on the west bypass or 481. Any confirmation on that, or is it just wishful thinking by those in the streetsblog site?   
Question is when the work will start. There are many people negatively affected by the change, expect a lot of lawsuits and complains before anything moves. Looks like viaduct has no chance of rebuild, though.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 10:05:09 AM
Quote from: DJStephens on May 13, 2019, 08:26:54 AM
    Very likely non of the reinforcing steel (rebar) in that original viaduct structure was epoxy coated.  Perhaps in a later redeck, but originally, no.  Seems crazy today, but that was the way it was - late fifties and through sixties, while there was a big push to get the roads built.   
   The original founders of the roads also did not foresee the vast increase in traffic, and heavy trucking, in many areas that would significantly shorten the lives of many bridges. 

Still, the agencies and the highway engineers then were focused on getting the Interstate highway system completed, and didn't really think much beyond a 20-year design life.  The original completion date was 1969, and of course that keep slipping backward.

This bridge has lasted what, over 50 years now?  Pretty good service.  Only 0.9 mile long -- time to replace it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: 2021122 on May 13, 2019, 12:05:15 PM
It appears that the community grid has been selected.

https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/04/i-81-timeline-community-grid-will-take-5-years-of-construction-ny-says.html

The current I-81 will take the place of I-481, bypassing the city. I-81 BL will go through the city. The only remnant of I-481 remaining will be NY-481, at the future junction of I-81, NY 481, and BL 81. They could upgrade the highway as interstate 481 instead. I-690 appears to cross the area, and other maps show it will have a speed limit of 55 instead of the current 45.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TonyTrafficLight on May 13, 2019, 12:29:41 PM
Here's another link to more news about Rt 81 that you dont have to log in to view.

https://www.localsyr.com/news/future-of-81/the-week-that-was-for-the-future-of-81-newschannel-9-s-day-by-day-coverage/1957132924
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 01:30:02 PM
NYSDOT must be imbibing on a particular powerful brand of Kool-Aid, that is laced with pot.

"The DEIS, which estimates the grid would cost between $1.9 billion and $2.2 billion"

Spending that much money for ... what? 

What is the cost estimate for simply replacing the 0.9 mile bridge ... maybe $300 million or so?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 13, 2019, 01:36:39 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 01:30:02 PM
NYSDOT must be imbibing on a particular powerful brand of Kool-Aid, that is laced with pot.

"The DEIS, which estimates the grid would cost between $1.9 billion and $2.2 billion"

Spending that much money for ... what? 

What is the cost estimate for simply replacing the 0.9 mile bridge ... maybe $300 million or so?
Is anyone talking about "simply replacing"?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 02:17:33 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 13, 2019, 01:36:39 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 01:30:02 PM
What is the cost estimate for simply replacing the 0.9 mile bridge ... maybe $300 million or so?
Is anyone talking about "simply replacing"?

It should be one of the alternatives evaluated in a comprehensive DEIS.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 13, 2019, 02:31:12 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 02:17:33 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 13, 2019, 01:36:39 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 01:30:02 PM
What is the cost estimate for simply replacing the 0.9 mile bridge ... maybe $300 million or so?
Is anyone talking about "simply replacing"?

It should be one of the alternatives evaluated in a comprehensive DEIS.
But it is not. It's not an opinion, it is a medical fact. The closest analyzed option is "do nothing", and it is not a viable one.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 13, 2019, 04:24:37 PM
What do the locals say about the preferred alternative? Are they happy with it? Or do they strongly oppose it?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 13, 2019, 05:36:00 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 13, 2019, 04:24:37 PM
What do the locals say about the preferred alternative? Are they happy with it? Or do they strongly oppose it?
mentioned more than once upthread. There is a strong division between inner city, where elevated highway has little use and gets little love; and suburbs, where that highway is a part of daily commute. Part of the reason it takes so long that there is no way to keep everyone - or at least most people - happy.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TonyTrafficLight on May 13, 2019, 05:38:03 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 01:30:02 PM
NYSDOT must be imbibing on a particular powerful brand of Kool-Aid, that is laced with pot.

"The DEIS, which estimates the grid would cost between $1.9 billion and $2.2 billion"

Spending that much money for ... what? 

What is the cost estimate for simply replacing the 0.9 mile bridge ... maybe $300 million or so?

I think replacing the viaducts was around $1.4 billion. Not sure if this has been shared here

http://www.savei81.org/
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 07:18:44 PM
Quote from: TonyTrafficLight on May 13, 2019, 05:38:03 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 01:30:02 PM
What is the cost estimate for simply replacing the 0.9 mile bridge ... maybe $300 million or so?
I think replacing the viaducts was around $1.4 billion. Not sure if this has been shared here

It's not gonna cost $1.4 billion to replace an 0.9-mile 6-lane bridge.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 13, 2019, 09:12:49 PM
We'll let the engineers that priced it out know your opinion on the matter. :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 09:19:43 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 13, 2019, 09:12:49 PM
We'll let the engineers that priced it out know your opinion on the matter. :D

I would like to see the detailed construction cost estimate.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 13, 2019, 09:48:33 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 09:19:43 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 13, 2019, 09:12:49 PM
We'll let the engineers that priced it out know your opinion on the matter. :D

I would like to see the detailed construction cost estimate.
Prices have gone up significantly over the past 10 years. A lot of the estimates you've shared on the forums may be applicable 10 or 20 years ago, but things are different now.

Still wondering how this community grid is going to cost billions though.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on May 13, 2019, 09:53:02 PM
Because it involves much more than just tearing down the viaduct and building a few streets in its place:

- *Redoing both I-81/481 interchanges.
- *Improvements to I-481 between I-690 and the Thruway.
- Redoing the 690/West St interchange.
- *New interchange on 690 in the vicinity of Lodi St.
- Rebuilding and widening I-81 to 8 lanes from 690 north to NY 370.

The three starred items are unique to the Community Grid option.  The other two (West St and 81 north of 690) were common to both alternatives.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on May 13, 2019, 10:02:25 PM
Heck, the costs have gone up quite a bit during this process.  I remember when it was 1.8 billion for the viaduct and 1.3 billion for the community grid.  Now it's 1.9+ billion for the community grid and even more for the viaduct.  I think I remember one where the viaduct was around 1.4 billion - I think the boulevard would have cost a few hundred million in that one.

As for why it costs so much, not only does it demolish the viaduct/replace it with a boulevard and realign the I-481 interchanges, it widens a piece of I-481 (including these long bridges (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0672879,-76.0525794,3a,75y,356.48h,71.34t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1swn1HZhReocJS58cJ-qwqXQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dwn1HZhReocJS58cJ-qwqXQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D82.817406%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100)), does significant work on the freeway north of I-690 to Onondaga Lake Parkway (though I'm pretty sure a widening of the full section is unique to the viaduct), and does a total rebuild of I-690 in the area.

As for a new viaduct, replace in kind isn't an option, because it doesn't meet modern interstate/NHS standards.  That would also include significant work on I-690, including a revamp of the interchange between the two and a widening north of there.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 10:16:40 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 13, 2019, 10:02:25 PM
As for a new viaduct, replace in kind isn't an option, because it doesn't meet modern interstate/NHS standards.  That would also include significant work on I-690, including a revamp of the interchange between the two and a widening north of there.

But they don't -have- to do anything more than replace the 0.9 mile bridge.  It certainly won't meet Interstate standards if they close the bridge.  As for $1.3 billion for that, rather than $300 million or so, again I need to see a detailed estimate before I believe it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 13, 2019, 10:19:34 PM
Not sure your last post makes sense.  They have to bring the facility up to standard or tear it down and build the grid.  Not sure why it matters that tearing it down won't meet interstate standards.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: hotdogPi on May 13, 2019, 10:26:36 PM
Build it as an exact copy and call it Bypass 81 (which wouldn't need to be up to standards, like business routes). Mainline 81 moves to 481.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: RoadMaster09 on May 13, 2019, 10:31:39 PM
I'm a little skeptical that I-481 will need an enormous upgrade. Local traffic would still use the current I-81 route regardless of its standards since they would need to use it to get downtown. I-81 towards Watertown and towards Binghamton aren't particularly busy apart from local commuter traffic (AADT drops below 20,000 long before Watertown, and drops to about 20,000 at Cortland) so the through traffic isn't enormous.

Widening to 6 lanes (would likely be needed soon anyway - AADT about 40,000 on I-481 now) is probably the most that will be necessary and the median is plenty wide enough for the most part. Only a couple areas would require major work - the long rail overpasses would probably need the most work.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on May 13, 2019, 10:38:19 PM
Even if interstate standards are no longer in the picture, there's still NHS route standards and New York state standards for that type of facility.

Quote from: Rothman on May 13, 2019, 10:19:34 PM
Not sure your last post makes sense.  They have to bring the facility up to standard or tear it down and build the grid.  Not sure why it matters that tearing it down won't meet interstate standards.
I think what Belway's proposing is a project that would address only the viaduct, ie no improvements to the I-690 interchange or the freeway north of there.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 13, 2019, 11:10:52 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 10:16:40 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 13, 2019, 10:02:25 PM
As for a new viaduct, replace in kind isn't an option, because it doesn't meet modern interstate/NHS standards.  That would also include significant work on I-690, including a revamp of the interchange between the two and a widening north of there.
It certainly won't meet Interstate standards if they close the bridge.
It wouldn't need to meet interstate standards. I-81 would be re-routed on I-481.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 13, 2019, 11:15:07 PM
@Beltway

Detailed cost estimate information - https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/Appendix%20A-5_Alternative%20Cost%20Estimate%20Tables_04-19-2019.pdf

April 19, 2019

Viaduct is $2.2 billion. The actual 0.9 mile bridge replacement itself is only $539 million, but there's a lot more than just than. Take a look yourself.

Entire DEIS - https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository

Detailed engineering drawings of either the community grid or viaduct - https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/872291C81E7D0134E0530A6C894A0134
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on May 13, 2019, 11:34:18 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 13, 2019, 11:15:07 PM
@Beltway

Detailed cost estimate information - https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/Appendix%20A-5_Alternative%20Cost%20Estimate%20Tables_04-19-2019.pdf

April 19, 2019

Viaduct is $2.2 billion. The actual 0.9 mile bridge replacement itself is only $539 million, but there's a lot more than just than. Take a look yourself.

Entire DEIS - https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository

Detailed engineering drawings of either the community grid or viaduct - https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/872291C81E7D0134E0530A6C894A0134
I don't know why you continue to indulge our resident semi-troll.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 11:36:24 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 13, 2019, 11:15:07 PM
@Beltway
Detailed cost estimate information - https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/Appendix%20A-5_Alternative%20Cost%20Estimate%20Tables_04-19-2019.pdf
April 19, 2019
Viaduct is $2.2 billion. The actual 0.9 mile bridge replacement itself is only $539 million, but there's a lot more than just than. Take a look yourself.

It says that Elevated Structures is $539 million, which is a lot more than just the 0.9-mile I-81 bridge which is the critical infrastructure that they are talking about removing.

What is the cost of replacing that bridge?  Alt. 1 - same width.  Alt. 2 - same number of lanes (6) will full right shoulders.  Alt.3 - if they don't want to build a wider bridge then build it with 4 lanes and full right shoulders.

While Alt. 3 would have capacity issues a 4-lane Interstate highway would be immensely better than losing that segment altogether, and it would meet current urban Interstate highway standards.

Alt. 3 would be very similar to the $240 million I-895 Canton Yards Viaduct replacement under construction in Baltimore which is also 0.9 miles and with 4 lanes and full right shoulders, plus in a northern unionized city where the construction costs should be fairly similar.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 13, 2019, 11:38:47 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 11:36:24 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 13, 2019, 11:15:07 PM
@Beltway
Detailed cost estimate information - https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/Appendix%20A-5_Alternative%20Cost%20Estimate%20Tables_04-19-2019.pdf
April 19, 2019
Viaduct is $2.2 billion. The actual 0.9 mile bridge replacement itself is only $539 million, but there's a lot more than just than. Take a look yourself.

It says that Elevated Structures is $539 million, which is a lot more than just the 0.9-mile I-81 bridge which is the critical infrastructure that they are talking about removing.

What is the cost of replacing that bridge?  Alt. 1 - same width.  Alt. 2 - same number of lanes (6) will full right shoulders.  Alt.3 - if they don't want to build a wider bridge then build it with 4 lanes and full right shoulders.

While Alt. 3 would have capacity issues a 4-lane Interstate highway would be immensely better than losing that segment altogether.

Alt. 3 would be very similar to the $240 million I-895 Canton Yards Viaduct replacement under construction in Baltimore which is also 0.9 miles and with 4 lanes and full right shoulders, plus in a northern unionized city where the construction costs should be fairly similar.
Look, you asked for detailed estimates, there's what I found.

I don't really know what else to say. Maybe contact the engineers?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on May 14, 2019, 12:03:43 AM
Kozel: Fact is, things cost what they cost. Stop asking us.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on May 14, 2019, 03:27:19 AM
Well, now that it seems the I-81/Syracuse teardown/"boulevardization" is a done deal, the promoters of this sort of thing have moved on to a new target: I-275 north of the I-4 interchange in Tampa.  The details were cited in last Friday's AASHTO DTU -- but the newspaper article used as reference has since been locked -- you'll have to fish out that DTU to get the synopsis.  Whether this one will fly absent a clearly aging and problematic structure is yet to be determined -- but these folks are pretty relentless, particularly when it comes to their "top dozen" list of urban freeways they would like to see removed -- and both Syracuse and this one were on that list.   

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 14, 2019, 07:55:39 AM
Quote from: Alps on May 14, 2019, 12:03:43 AM
Kozel: Fact is, things cost what they cost. Stop asking us.
I don't think he's asking.  He's just stating his opinion and insisting he's right, despite not having been directly involved with the project -- like the people who developed the estimates were.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: hotdogPi on May 14, 2019, 08:04:44 AM
I actually agree with Beltway. Since NYSDOT doesn't have enough money for all the improvements, fixing just the viaduct and nothing else works well, and it is even cheaper than the community grid plan that was accepted. I-81 will be able to stay where it is, and no capacity is lost compared to what it is now.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on May 14, 2019, 08:10:30 AM
Based on his recent post, Scott seems to think that costs in Upstate New York are comparable to those in Maryland.  That's simply not true.  Labor costs are considerably higher in New York, and that's reflected in the project estimate.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 14, 2019, 08:14:36 AM
Quote from: 1 on May 14, 2019, 08:04:44 AM
I actually agree with Beltway. Since NYSDOT doesn't have enough money for all the improvements, fixing just the viaduct and nothing else works well, and it is even cheaper than the community grid plan that was accepted. I-81 will be able to stay where it is, and no capacity is lost compared to what it is now.
Fixing as-is is out of the question. Fixing to standards require a lot of extra footprint, eminent domain on city center property and quickly consumes a lot of money and goodwill.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 14, 2019, 08:27:21 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 14, 2019, 08:14:36 AM
Quote from: 1 on May 14, 2019, 08:04:44 AM
I actually agree with Beltway. Since NYSDOT doesn't have enough money for all the improvements, fixing just the viaduct and nothing else works well, and it is even cheaper than the community grid plan that was accepted. I-81 will be able to stay where it is, and no capacity is lost compared to what it is now.
Fixing as-is is out of the question. Fixing to standards require a lot of extra footprint, eminent domain on city center property and quickly consumes a lot of money and goodwill.
^This.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: hbelkins on May 14, 2019, 12:57:12 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 14, 2019, 08:10:30 AM
Based on his recent post, Scott seems to think that costs in Upstate New York are comparable to those in Maryland.  That's simply not true.  Labor costs are considerably higher in New York, and that's reflected in the project estimate.

And THIS is one of the places where I think transportation agencies can get a handle on costs. I know that when federal funds are involved, federal prevailing wage laws apply, but maybe, just maybe, one of these days we can get those repealed. Most of the contractors who build highway projects went into business strictly to get government contracts to build roads. It's basically all they do. It's their sole source of revenue. If the government says, "we're paying X amount of dollars for this project, and not a dime more," the contractors will either reduce their bids or they will go without work.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 14, 2019, 02:03:51 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 14, 2019, 12:57:12 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 14, 2019, 08:10:30 AM
Based on his recent post, Scott seems to think that costs in Upstate New York are comparable to those in Maryland.  That's simply not true.  Labor costs are considerably higher in New York, and that's reflected in the project estimate.

And THIS is one of the places where I think transportation agencies can get a handle on costs. I know that when federal funds are involved, federal prevailing wage laws apply, but maybe, just maybe, one of these days we can get those repealed. Most of the contractors who build highway projects went into business strictly to get government contracts to build roads. It's basically all they do. It's their sole source of revenue. If the government says, "we're paying X amount of dollars for this project, and not a dime more," the contractors will either reduce their bids or they will go without work.
Which can be the case. But I still wonder how much non-labor items, such as machinery depreciation and raw materials - e.g. steel an concrete, actually contribute towards the grand total.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 14, 2019, 04:19:12 PM
If I understand HB's intriguing proposal correctly, I am not sure that paying some pittance for labor is the best route when we want bridges built to spec.  That said, I really am not that familiar with the prevailing wage legislation.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: hbelkins on May 14, 2019, 04:43:54 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 14, 2019, 04:19:12 PM
If I understand HB's intriguing proposal correctly, I am not sure that paying some pittance for labor is the best route when we want bridges built to spec.  That said, I really am not that familiar with the prevailing wage legislation.

It's easy to tell a proposal in Kentucky when it's federally funded vs. state only. The federally funded proposal will have pages of labor requirements and wage listings. The state proposal will basically have one page stating the minimum wage.

As for building bridges to spec, this is why the transportation agencies employ inspectors.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 14, 2019, 05:03:16 PM
Kentucky pays everyone on a 100% state-funded job minimum wage?  No wonder the state is known for poverty.

Also makes me wonder about KY's split between federal and 100% funded state jobs and if their split is affected by that policy.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 14, 2019, 06:34:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 14, 2019, 07:55:39 AM
Quote from: Alps on May 14, 2019, 12:03:43 AM
Kozel: Fact is, things cost what they cost. Stop asking us.
I don't think he's asking.  He's just stating his opinion and insisting he's right, despite not having been directly involved with the project -- like the people who developed the estimates were.

I asked a couple questions, rendered some opinions, and put 3 alternatives out for perusal.

Not really questioning any engineers, I realize that the people who actually published the report were most likely not engineers per se.

I am aghast at this project, and the fact that the national "remove urban freeways" advocates will glom on to this and demand the removal of other urban freeways in the country.

So yeah this does affect me personally and many other people around the country.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 14, 2019, 06:36:55 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 14, 2019, 08:10:30 AM
Based on his recent post, Scott seems to think that costs in Upstate New York are comparable to those in Maryland.  That's simply not true.  Labor costs are considerably higher in New York, and that's reflected in the project estimate.

Baltimore is a much bigger city than Syracuse, and it is quite plausible that Baltimore would be more expensive.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 14, 2019, 06:43:00 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 14, 2019, 06:34:37 PM
Not really questioning any engineers, I realize that the people who actually published the report were most likely not engineers per se.
People who published the report were not engineers, of course. The people who came up with the engineering cost estimates on the other hand in the background were on the other hand.

Quote from: Beltway on May 14, 2019, 06:34:37 PM
I am aghast at this project, and the fact that the national "remove urban freeways" advocates will glom on to this and demand the removal of other urban freeways in the country.
Agreed. I will say some interstates, like urban spur routes that don't have much use, or elevated freeways that get little traffic, I'm fine with removing. But long-distance thru routes like these, I'm completely against. Same with important urban spur routes.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 14, 2019, 06:46:19 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 14, 2019, 06:34:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 14, 2019, 07:55:39 AM
Quote from: Alps on May 14, 2019, 12:03:43 AM
Kozel: Fact is, things cost what they cost. Stop asking us.
I don't think he's asking.  He's just stating his opinion and insisting he's right, despite not having been directly involved with the project -- like the people who developed the estimates were.

I asked a couple questions, rendered some opinions, and put 3 alternatives out for perusal.

Not really questioning any engineers, I realize that the people who actually published the report were most likely not engineers per se.

I am aghast at this project, and the fact that the national "remove urban freeways" advocates will glom on to this and demand the removal of other urban freeways in the country.

So yeah this does affect me personally and many other people around the country.
The situation with I-81 Syracuse was discussed quite a bit in 20 pages of this thread.
There is no simple solution, and you're certainly not inventing one by your posts. I suggest you read what was posted before - yep, all 20 pages - before coming up with your valuable opionion. BTW, did you drive the highway in question? I did a few times, and I certainly don't think I can invent something really new here.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 14, 2019, 06:51:24 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 14, 2019, 06:43:00 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 14, 2019, 06:34:37 PM
Not really questioning any engineers, I realize that the people who actually published the report were most likely not engineers per se.
People who published the report were not engineers, of course. The people who came up with the engineering cost estimates on the other hand in the background were on the other hand.

The people who published the report were not necessarily using the work of engineers on their document ...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 14, 2019, 07:00:12 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 14, 2019, 06:51:24 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 14, 2019, 06:43:00 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 14, 2019, 06:34:37 PM
Not really questioning any engineers, I realize that the people who actually published the report were most likely not engineers per se.
People who published the report were not engineers, of course. The people who came up with the engineering cost estimates on the other hand in the background were on the other hand.

The people who published the report were not necessarily using the work of engineers on their document ...
And 9/11 was an inside job, right?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 14, 2019, 07:02:18 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 14, 2019, 07:00:12 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 14, 2019, 06:51:24 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 14, 2019, 06:43:00 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 14, 2019, 06:34:37 PM
Not really questioning any engineers, I realize that the people who actually published the report were most likely not engineers per se.
People who published the report were not engineers, of course. The people who came up with the engineering cost estimates on the other hand in the background were on the other hand.
The people who published the report were not necessarily using the work of engineers on their document ...
And 9/11 was an inside job, right?

No, wrong conspiracy, you need to look at the real conspiracies.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on May 14, 2019, 08:59:17 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 11:36:24 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 13, 2019, 11:15:07 PM
@Beltway
Detailed cost estimate information - https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/Appendix%20A-5_Alternative%20Cost%20Estimate%20Tables_04-19-2019.pdf
April 19, 2019
Viaduct is $2.2 billion. The actual 0.9 mile bridge replacement itself is only $539 million, but there's a lot more than just than. Take a look yourself.

It says that Elevated Structures is $539 million, which is a lot more than just the 0.9-mile I-81 bridge which is the critical infrastructure that they are talking about removing.

What is the cost of replacing that bridge?  Alt. 1 - same width.  Alt. 2 - same number of lanes (6) will full right shoulders.  Alt.3 - if they don't want to build a wider bridge then build it with 4 lanes and full right shoulders.

While Alt. 3 would have capacity issues a 4-lane Interstate highway would be immensely better than losing that segment altogether, and it would meet current urban Interstate highway standards.

Alt. 3 would be very similar to the $240 million I-895 Canton Yards Viaduct replacement under construction in Baltimore which is also 0.9 miles and with 4 lanes and full right shoulders, plus in a northern unionized city where the construction costs should be fairly similar.

It doesn't have 6 lanes over the majority of it - it's 6 to exit 18, 4 within exit 18 (where the majority of the viaduct is), and then you're in the I-690 interchange.  I-81 south even goes down to one lane just past the ramp from I-690 east.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on May 14, 2019, 09:18:00 PM
"The Davis-Bacon and Related Acts (DBRA) require payment of prevailing wages to laborers and mechanics employed on federal and federally-assisted construction projects." - That sounds good. I would want to see that.
"The Contract Work Hours and Safety Standards Act (CWHSSA) requires contractors and subcontractors on federal contracts to pay laborers and mechanics at least one and one-half times their basic rate of pay for all hours worked over 40 in a workweek. This Act also prohibits unsanitary, hazardous, or dangerous working conditions in the construction industry on federal and federally financed and assisted projects." - That all sounds pretty good. The 1.5x pay is fairly typical in most states with strong unions and not at all unreasonable.
"The Copeland "Anti-Kickback" Act prohibits a contractor or subcontractor from inducing an employee to give up any part of his/her compensation to which he/she is entitled under his/her contract of employment." - Interesting. In theory an employee should be able to voluntarily give up pay, but in practice this could lead to coercion - "if you won't do it, we'll hire someone who will." So I guess it's necessary.

All in all, Federal prevailing wage laws seem pretty damn reasonable and I see no reason to repeal them. They're protecting workers in anti-labor states with weak unions.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: hotdogPi on May 14, 2019, 09:49:42 PM
Quote from: Alps on May 14, 2019, 09:18:00 PM
The 1.5x pay is fairly typical in most states with strong unions and not at all unreasonable.

From what I can tell, the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 requires this nationwide, not just in "most states with strong unions".
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: hbelkins on May 15, 2019, 01:15:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 14, 2019, 05:03:16 PM
Kentucky pays everyone on a 100% state-funded job minimum wage?  No wonder the state is known for poverty.

Also makes me wonder about KY's split between federal and 100% funded state jobs and if their split is affected by that policy.

Kentucky does not pay them. The contractor pays them. The documentation pretty much just lists the minimum wage requirements; I'm sure the guys driving the dozers or excavators make more than minimum wage.

Quote from: Alps on May 14, 2019, 09:18:00 PM
"The Davis-Bacon and Related Acts (DBRA) require payment of prevailing wages to laborers and mechanics employed on federal and federally-assisted construction projects." - That sounds good. I would want to see that.

But what, exactly, establishes a prevailing wage? I have no idea whether the highway contractors here are unionized or not. My argument is that there are really only two places where project costs can be controlled, labor costs and corporate profits. Material costs are pretty much going to remain the same no matter which contractor gets the job. Even with labor costs set by law, it's sometimes amazing how much difference there can be in project bids.

Quote"The Contract Work Hours and Safety Standards Act (CWHSSA) requires contractors and subcontractors on federal contracts to pay laborers and mechanics at least one and one-half times their basic rate of pay for all hours worked over 40 in a workweek. This Act also prohibits unsanitary, hazardous, or dangerous working conditions in the construction industry on federal and federally financed and assisted projects." - That all sounds pretty good. The 1.5x pay is fairly typical in most states with strong unions and not at all unreasonable.

Time-and-a-half is standard for everyone, not just federal contractors, here.

QuoteAll in all, Federal prevailing wage laws seem pretty damn reasonable and I see no reason to repeal them. They're protecting workers in anti-labor states with weak unions.

Except they drive up the cost to taxpayers.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: hotdogPi on May 15, 2019, 01:24:17 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 15, 2019, 01:15:24 PM
QuoteAll in all, Federal prevailing wage laws seem pretty damn reasonable and I see no reason to repeal them. They're protecting workers in anti-labor states with weak unions.

Except they drive up the cost to taxpayers.

Not by that much. For example, in an area where the minimum wage is the minimum $7.25 per hour, a whatchamacallit would cost $725. In Massachusetts (where it is $12 per hour), it would cost $900, in addition to living in a state with better healthcare and education.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 15, 2019, 03:22:52 PM
I don't think anyone will be successful in overruling NYSDOT in this. I expect that, eventually, the "Community Grid" will replace the Interstate 81 viaduct in Syracuse.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 15, 2019, 04:26:53 PM
Quote from: 1 on May 15, 2019, 01:24:17 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 15, 2019, 01:15:24 PM
QuoteAll in all, Federal prevailing wage laws seem pretty damn reasonable and I see no reason to repeal them. They're protecting workers in anti-labor states with weak unions.

Except they drive up the cost to taxpayers.

Not by that much. For example, in an area where the minimum wage is the minimum $7.25 per hour, a whatchamacallit would cost $725. In Massachusetts (where it is $12 per hour), it would cost $900, in addition to living in a state with better healthcare and education.
Well, to put things in perspective:

Eventually, the two unions worked out a deal in which the dockbuilders, who earn $92.47 an hour in wages and benefits, would be assigned the work.

https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/tappan-zee-bridge/2015/10/23/tappan-zee-builder-wins-again-union-wage-dispute/74454228/
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 15, 2019, 04:28:05 PM


Quote from: hbelkins on May 15, 2019, 01:15:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 14, 2019, 05:03:16 PM
Kentucky pays everyone on a 100% state-funded job minimum wage?  No wonder the state is known for poverty.

Also makes me wonder about KY's split between federal and 100% funded state jobs and if their split is affected by that policy.

Kentucky does not pay them. The contractor pays them.

And where does the contractor get their money from?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: signalman on May 15, 2019, 04:53:56 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 15, 2019, 01:15:24 PM
Except they drive up the cost to taxpayers.
These workers are taxpayers too, ya know.  They too have living expenses and deserve to be paid well for the work that they do.  Bottom line is that people want nice things, but no one wants to pay for them.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on May 15, 2019, 07:20:17 PM
Quote from: signalmanBottom line is that people want nice things, but no one wants to pay for them.

This.  A thousand times this.  And this is in no small part why we're in this infrastructure mess.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Duke87 on May 15, 2019, 07:30:26 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 15, 2019, 01:15:24 PM
But what, exactly, establishes a prevailing wage?

It's based on surveys of workers in individual trades and what they're getting paid - the "prevailing" wage is defined as what the majority of workers in the given trade make per hour in the given area. If no single rate is the majority, then the prevailing wage is defined as the average wage for the given trade in the given area.

What this effectively does is, if the majority of workers in the given trade in the given area are unionized, you are required to pay your workers at the standard union pay rate on this job even if the workers you've hired are non-union and would otherwise be paid less.

If unions are not prevalent in the given area, then all it really does is say you can't pay your workers below average, and the impact it has on labor costs will be fairly minimal.

QuoteMy argument is that there are really only two places where project costs can be controlled, labor costs and corporate profits. Material costs are pretty much going to remain the same no matter which contractor gets the job. Even with labor costs set by law, it's sometimes amazing how much difference there can be in project bids.

There's another variable here that is important not to neglect - labor costs are not set by law, hourly labor rates are. You can still reduce costs if you are able to successfully complete the job using fewer man-hours of labor. I can tell you that in New York there is a lot of unrealized opportunity to do this because of arcane union work rules (set by collective bargaining agreement, not by law) that end up requiring more workers to be present on a jobsite than are actually necessary.

Quote from: kalvado on May 15, 2019, 04:26:53 PM
Well, to put things in perspective:

Eventually, the two unions worked out a deal in which the dockbuilders, who earn $92.47 an hour in wages and benefits, would be assigned the work.

https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/tappan-zee-bridge/2015/10/23/tappan-zee-builder-wins-again-union-wage-dispute/74454228/

Emphasis on "wages and benefits" - that figure includes the cost of things like health and dental insurance, disability insurance, vacation time, paid family leave, as well as the cost of any pension or retirement plan the workers have.

What they're actually getting paid in wages alone is probably half of that figure, so say $46.23 per hour. Which works out to about $96k a year with no overtime. This may sound like a lot but with what the cost of living is in downstate NY, it really isn't.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 15, 2019, 11:26:08 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 14, 2019, 08:59:17 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 13, 2019, 11:36:24 PM
Alt. 3 would be very similar to the $240 million I-895 Canton Viaduct replacement under construction in Baltimore which is also 0.9 miles and with 4 lanes and full right shoulders, plus in a northern unionized city where the construction costs should be fairly similar.
It doesn't have 6 lanes over the majority of it - it's 6 to exit 18, 4 within exit 18 (where the majority of the viaduct is), and then you're in the I-690 interchange.  I-81 south even goes down to one lane just past the ramp from I-690 east.

True, I see that the northern end of about 0.3 mile has 2 lanes each way with minimal shoulders.

The I-895 Canton Viaduct replacement will have 2 lanes each way and full right shoulders.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: RobbieL2415 on May 16, 2019, 03:58:18 PM
At the rate everything is going the solution will be "tear the Viaduct down and do nothing else. Route I-81 around Syracuse". The city will be stuck with a giant strip of land devoid of anything because no one is willing to compromise.  That is what NIMBY'S deserve.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 16, 2019, 05:01:10 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 16, 2019, 03:58:18 PM
At the rate everything is going the solution will be "tear the Viaduct down and do nothing else. Route I-81 around Syracuse". The city will be stuck with a giant strip of land devoid of anything because no one is willing to compromise.  That is what NIMBY'S deserve.
Don't think so. When - or if - NYSDOT starts the job, things will go reasonably. It is about getting the project going before viaduct collapses.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 16, 2019, 07:24:54 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 16, 2019, 03:58:18 PM
At the rate everything is going the solution will be "tear the Viaduct down and do nothing else. Route I-81 around Syracuse". The city will be stuck with a giant strip of land devoid of anything because no one is willing to compromise.  That is what NIMBY'S deserve.

So $1.9 billion for the project that will tear a major chunk out of the freeway system, and $2.2 billion for the project that would provide the replacement of the freeway bridges and the improvement of the I-81/I-690 interchange area?   So seppuku costs 14% less than the full modernization... it's cheaper to commit seppuku.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 16, 2019, 08:41:54 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 16, 2019, 07:24:54 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 16, 2019, 03:58:18 PM
At the rate everything is going the solution will be "tear the Viaduct down and do nothing else. Route I-81 around Syracuse". The city will be stuck with a giant strip of land devoid of anything because no one is willing to compromise.  That is what NIMBY'S deserve.

So $1.9 billion for the project that will tear a major chunk out of the freeway system, and $2.2 billion for the project that would provide the replacement of the freeway bridges and the improvement of the I-81/I-690 interchange area?   So seppuku costs 14% less than the full modernization... it's cheaper to commit seppuku.
NYSDOT is cowering to the NIMBY and not seeing sense.

Foolish of them.

Biggest waste of taxpayer money, or any money for that sense.

If a community grid was 90% cheaper, I could see it. But $1.9 billion is a lot of money for.... nothing. $2.2 billion would keep a high-capacity, high-speed urban freeway in place, replace it and make it safer, wider, and more reliable, and provide traffic improvements with a major interchange reconstruction.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on May 16, 2019, 09:14:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 16, 2019, 08:41:54 PM
NYSDOT is cowering to the NIMBY and not seeing sense.
Foolish of them.
Biggest waste of taxpayer money, or any money for that sense.
If a community grid was 90% cheaper, I could see it. But $1.9 billion is a lot of money for.... nothing. $2.2 billion would keep a high-capacity, high-speed urban freeway in place, replace it and make it safer, wider, and more reliable, and provide traffic improvements with a major interchange reconstruction.

Like they say a billion dollars is not what it used to be, due to years and years of cost inflation, but it is still a big chunk of change.

$1.9 billion was 50% of the cost of the new Tappan Zee Bridge, and that certainly was a needed replacement that was much wider.

Where are the "Taxpayers for Common Sense" when you need them?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Mccojm on May 22, 2019, 02:14:38 PM
Quote from: mariethefoxy on June 15, 2016, 11:05:07 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 14, 2016, 08:04:04 PM
Main Office will probably make the call.  At the very least, Region 7 will also be affected, and I don't think the regions have the authority to change an existing road from sequential to mile-based numbers anyways.  I think I heard from someone that, were it up to the Regions, Upstate NY (minus the Thruway) would have switched to mile-based exit numbers years if not decades ago.

What about Long Island? seems like down here is going to be the last part of the state to switch to mileage exits. We still dont have proper mile markers like the rest of the state.

I always wondered why we don't and if we ever will have proper mile post signs on our highways on Long Island. Reference markers don't mean anything to general public and the system in itself used by DOT is shady when many are missing, damaged, overgrown by brush. If we had proper mike posts it would be so much easier for all and for us who need to reference a point on roads whether for construction reports or maintenance work or project planning.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on July 30, 2019, 02:45:05 PM
A great piece about the I-81 project in Syracuse - the highway that was supposed to save the city, can tearing it down fix the sins of the past? (It's by Jalopnik, an auto-centered site.)

The Highway Was Supposed to Save This City. Can Tearing It Down Fix the Sins of the Past? (https://jalopnik.com/the-highway-was-supposed-to-save-this-city-can-tearing-1836529628)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on July 30, 2019, 03:09:23 PM
You're right, that is a great piece. I don't necessarily agree with everything in it, particularly the inference that all opponents of the grid are inherently racist, but it is a really good overview of the fundamentals at play with this project, whatever happens.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Duke87 on August 02, 2019, 05:38:30 PM
Quote"The removal of the highway has the potential to essentially repeat the same outcomes that the construction of the highways had,"  Crowther said. The viaduct has acted as a border that prevented the more gradual flow of economic opportunity seeping outwards from the university, downtown, and hospitals in recent years. Once that barrier is removed, residents expect it to cause a shockwave of higher property taxes and rising rents, which current residents are unlikely to be able to afford.

And this is someone from the Congress for New Urbanism talking!

This is one of the exact points I keep making about these types of projects - yes, the placement of the viaduct when it was first built had some absolutely racist motives, it was deliberately routed to destroy the local black neighborhood. But this is not a reversible process; tearing the viaduct down will not restore the neighborhood to as it was 60 years ago before it was built, if anything it will only be followed by a wave of gentrification that will once more result in low-income black families being displaced from their homes.

If anything, a viaduct teardown repeats the sins of the past as far as racial justice goes.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: bemybear on August 20, 2019, 12:50:29 PM
I'm new to Rochester NY but previously lived in Scranton PA, Memphis and Nashville TN, suburban Chicago, San Francisco CA and various places in Oregon.  So I'm not in Syracuse a ton but I've both visited as a tourist and driven through at least 10 times.

I normally have a knee jerk reaction to tearing down limited access structures and replacing them with a surface street but in this case I don't think I-81 through Syracuse is such a loss.

First, several of the existing sections of I-81 in Syracuse are lousy with zero useful shoulder and no easy way to upgrade since they are elevated and surrounded by stuff.  The I-81 north to I-690 west split is nerve wracking and not well suited for large vehicles, people not familiar with the area etc and ends in a left merge.

Secondly, Syracuse isn't a hot bed of traffic in general and has a lovely modern I-481 that will serve very well for people who are trying to get AROUND Syrcause not go to/through it.  I looked at the maps just now and wish I'd known that there was an I-481 to I-690 junction.  When driving on I-81 all the signs for the Thruway West direct you to stay on I-81 which I can see is shorter but I wonder if the time difference would even be measured in minutes compared with the better flowing I-481.

Lastly, Syracuse is a dumpster fire of awful and when we stayed at the very nice Hotel Skyler near the University and walked to and from downtown multiple times, it seemed undeniable that I-81 and the surface street (or series of off-ramps?) that are under the I-81 bridge near Harrison street are really horrendous impediments to making what should be a contiguous block of similarly conveniently located land seem like 2 islands (university area and downtown).  Anti highway people often say highways are scars that destroy neighborhoods and in THIS case I think it is very clearly an issue.

While not as separated as I-90 is from Rochester, I think having the mainline interstate not go through downtown Syracuse will be a win for both locals (who currently have a big gash through downtown) and long distance drivers who are currently traversing a sub standard narrow piece of freeway intermingled with a lot of locals who do lots of typical city driving shenanigans to cope with what must seem like annoying slow people passing through.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 20, 2019, 08:43:49 PM
I just did some Google directions from LaFayette (I-81 exit 15) to Weedsport (I-90 exit 40) to compare times.  I-81/I-690/I-90 and I-81/I-90 are both 39 minutes, while I-81/I-481/I-90 and I-81/I-481/I-690/I-90 are 46 (the last one is also the only one to require more than one shaping point).  Of course, in addition to time, there's also the principle of replacing what used to be 3 miles with 12 miles, and the fact that there will no longer be a good all-freeway route for trips from the western suburbs to/from points south or points south to/from the Fair or the northern Finger Lakes (I'm also the person who selects apartments based on how many trips in the metro area can be made with the freeway system (excluding the Thruway, which in my mind is mainly for long-distance travel, going to Canandaigua Lake, or Schenectady) as a backbone).

I'm not sure I'd really call I-481 "better flowing".  While it avoids the I-81/I-690 junction, it's mostly a 4-lane interstate with (IMO) a borderline need of a widening (and not so borderline between I-690 and I-90).  Traffic mostly flows below the speed limit on the times I've used it.  It's also less interesting than I-81, though I'm the type of person who prefers to drive through cities rather than around them if it doesn't take me out of my way and traffic isn't too congested.

I've never understood what's so "dividing" about I-81.  What's under it is a surface street... why is it more difficult to cross than any other surface street?  It's a viaduct you can walk under just fine, not a wall.  I find waiting at all the traffic lights at every single intersection (and getting asked for money from homeless people nearly every single time I've been in downtown Syracuse) to be a greater annoyance.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: bemybear on August 21, 2019, 01:12:00 PM
vdeane....

I'm sure everybody has different levels of comfort and tolerance but I would honestly consider walking down Harrison under I-81 (the bridge made a lot of loud clunking noises and seemed very dark) as quite an off putting experience.  Plus more than one of the times we were walking through there people were honking at each other over some conflict about lanes under the bridge.  Given that the bridge itself isn't in great shape and some work seems inevitable, I think opting to eliminate it isn't crazy sounding at all.  Hopefully the street replacement is intelligently designed. A few miles of well done surface road don't have to be a huge back step in terms of transportation for those vehicles that need or choose to use it.  I think of even very homely US-11 from the I-81 split near Avoca to downtown Scranton.  Not an amazingly fast road but hardly a traffic snarled disaster and that road is basically just whatever evolved over the years, not obviously planed or optimized in any way.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 21, 2019, 01:48:26 PM
Is it odd to actually like the sound of cars driving over expansion joints?

I would think lighting (similar to what was done in Schenctady (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8137734,-73.9432983,3a,75y,100.56h,81.1t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sm566iKTCRNbjDW53yEKI6Q!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dm566iKTCRNbjDW53yEKI6Q%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D123.80041%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656)) would be a possible solution if darkness is an issue.  And I'm sure a narrow four-lane surface street (like what is proposed for an I-81 tear-down) would be no less honk-prone than what's currently there.

Here's all the alternatives that were evaluated: https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/alternatives

I'm also not a fan of removing even the part that would stay a freeway from the interstate system and replacing it with a business loop.  I'm not even a fan of interstate business routes, period, for that matter.

More information (including detailed maps): https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/03%20Alternatives_04-19-2019.pdf

Note that the "community grid" won't have direct connections to/from I-690, so even if you don't mind the traffic lights that will be on the existing route, you'll still have to take I-481 or leave the state system.

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 21, 2019, 02:11:56 PM
Quote from: bemybear on August 21, 2019, 01:12:00 PM
vdeane....

I'm sure everybody has different levels of comfort and tolerance but I would honestly consider walking down Harrison under I-81 (the bridge made a lot of loud clunking noises and seemed very dark) as quite an off putting experience.  Plus more than one of the times we were walking through there people were honking at each other over some conflict about lanes under the bridge.  Given that the bridge itself isn't in great shape and some work seems inevitable, I think opting to eliminate it isn't crazy sounding at all.  Hopefully the street replacement is intelligently designed. A few miles of well done surface road don't have to be a huge back step in terms of transportation for those vehicles that need or choose to use it.  I think of even very homely US-11 from the I-81 split near Avoca to downtown Scranton.  Not an amazingly fast road but hardly a traffic snarled disaster and that road is basically just whatever evolved over the years, not obviously planed or optimized in any way.
Is there enough ROW to do street replacement [which] is intelligently designed in the downtown?
For example, US11 in the area of proposed I-81 removal is a 2-lane street with - just looking at a random spot -  an overpass where squeezing third lane will be difficult. That is to replace 6-lane highway?
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0394563,-76.1475086,3a,87.3y,201.09h,94.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swHkiKCweGjlF6wn7kzd9wg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
And this is about NYSDOT, you know...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on September 11, 2019, 08:29:01 PM
I found something interesting on Reddit last night.  A commenter on a thread (https://old.reddit.com/r/Syracuse/comments/d1ie0x/the_highway_was_supposed_to_save_this_city_can/ezo6iec/) linking to Jalopnik's I-81 article on r/Syracuse (the same article linked upthread) claimed that Save 81 is backed by Pyramid.  When someone asked for proof, a third person linked to the WHOIS data (https://www.whois.com/whois/savei81.org) for savei81.org, and sure enough, it's registered to Pyramid Companies.

EDIT: I just saw a Syracuse.com article (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/09/destiny-usa-developer-listed-as-owner-of-save-81s-website-mistake-or-a-big-reveal.html) about the domain registration.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on September 12, 2019, 07:21:47 AM
Shocker. Pyramid is just an unreputable company (https://www.syracuse.com/business/2019/04/destiny-usa-bonds-downgraded-could-be-headed-to-junk-status.html), asking for generous tax breaks and credits and causing several malls in Syracuse to die. And several of their former malls were left to languish and die.

The new I-81 route, no matter where it ends up, needs to be designed to serve the residents of Syracuse, not business interests. The decision (?) was made to route I-81 along the bypass which ultimately benefits central Syracuse residents and rights the wrongs of the past, but ultimately hurts Pyramid, which I have little sympathy for. Judging from comments on prior articles about Pyramid, I think a lot of locals agree.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on September 12, 2019, 08:47:30 AM
Quote from: seicer on September 12, 2019, 07:21:47 AM
Shocker. Pyramid is just an unreputable company (https://www.syracuse.com/business/2019/04/destiny-usa-bonds-downgraded-could-be-headed-to-junk-status.html), asking for generous tax breaks and credits and causing several malls in Syracuse to die. And several of their former malls were left to languish and die.

The new I-81 route, no matter where it ends up, needs to be designed to serve the residents of Syracuse, not business interests. The decision (?) was made to route I-81 along the bypass which ultimately benefits central Syracuse residents and rights the wrongs of the past, but ultimately hurts Pyramid, which I have little sympathy for. Judging from comments on prior articles about Pyramid, I think a lot of locals agree.
Glass can be half-full or half empty. You may dislike the mall, but it is a part of the regional economy, and as such has to be considered as integral part of the situation. Would the city be better off if the mall starts downsizing?
One thing to keep in mind - Upstate NY is planning for the decline. Syracuse lost 15% of the population over the past 25 years, and I don't see a way for things to go better. Mall - which is actually very big for the area - attracts a lot of money, including shoppers from out of area, and likely Canada. Loss of mall revenue - including taxes and jobs - is not something that is going to help the city.
Of course, Canada or Rochester traffic to the mall is not affected by reroute; but southern suburbs and Cornell (out of state money!) are. Well, Amazon is there to pick up the slack, after all.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Henry on September 12, 2019, 10:06:15 AM
The upside to this is that what is now I-481 is already available for a potential I-81 reroute, and that there wouldn't be much difference in its overall length (11.18 miles in its current form, and 15.08 as proposed). I'm just hoping we don't get another Greensboro situation, where residents were complaining about I-40 when it was rerouted, and that ultimately forced it to return to its former route.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 12, 2019, 02:10:03 PM
If Interstate 481 becomes 81, I assume NY 481 would retain its existing designation since there is already a NY 81 between Rensselaerville and Coxsackie.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on September 12, 2019, 03:59:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 12, 2019, 08:47:30 AM
Of course, Canada or Rochester traffic to the mall is not affected by reroute; but southern suburbs and Cornell (out of state money!) are. Well, Amazon is there to pick up the slack, after all.

Amazon has a major Syracuse presence?  Where?

ixnay
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on September 12, 2019, 04:59:31 PM
Quote from: ixnay on September 12, 2019, 03:59:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 12, 2019, 08:47:30 AM
Of course, Canada or Rochester traffic to the mall is not affected by reroute; but southern suburbs and Cornell (out of state money!) are. Well, Amazon is there to pick up the slack, after all.

Amazon has a major Syracuse presence?  Where?

ixnay
http://amazon.com
Check it out, if you didn't yet - they sell anything you may ever need!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on September 12, 2019, 05:38:05 PM
Quote from: Henry on September 12, 2019, 10:06:15 AM
I'm just hoping we don't get another Greensboro situation, where residents were complaining about I-40 when it was rerouted, and that ultimately forced it to return to its former route.
When they tear I-81 down and see how crappy a community grid is, they'll call for the state to undo the $2 billion project and build a new viaduct!

Or better yet, in 15-20 years they'll begin an EIS for a new elevated freeway through Syracuse to relieve newly created traffic issues.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on September 12, 2019, 05:57:49 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 12, 2019, 05:38:05 PM
Quote from: Henry on September 12, 2019, 10:06:15 AM
I'm just hoping we don't get another Greensboro situation, where residents were complaining about I-40 when it was rerouted, and that ultimately forced it to return to its former route.
When they tear I-81 down and see how crappy a community grid is, they'll call for the state to undo the $2 billion project and build a new viaduct!

Or better yet, in 15-20 years they'll begin an EIS for a new elevated freeway through Syracuse to relieve newly created traffic issues.
Or...tunnel... :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on September 12, 2019, 07:23:33 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 12, 2019, 04:59:31 PM
Quote from: ixnay on September 12, 2019, 03:59:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 12, 2019, 08:47:30 AM
Of course, Canada or Rochester traffic to the mall is not affected by reroute; but southern suburbs and Cornell (out of state money!) are. Well, Amazon is there to pick up the slack, after all.

Amazon has a major Syracuse presence?  Where?

ixnay
http://amazon.com
Check it out, if you didn't yet - they sell anything you may ever need!

I've bought a couple of books from there a few years ago.  That's about the extent of my dealings with Amazon.  I prefer QVC.  (I like Amazon's logo, though.)

My question was whether Syracuse had a Middletown, DE-like Amazon facility that most don't know about.  I see where you're coming from, now, kalvado.

ixnay
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on September 12, 2019, 08:18:35 PM
Quote from: ixnay on September 12, 2019, 07:23:33 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 12, 2019, 04:59:31 PM
Quote from: ixnay on September 12, 2019, 03:59:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 12, 2019, 08:47:30 AM
Of course, Canada or Rochester traffic to the mall is not affected by reroute; but southern suburbs and Cornell (out of state money!) are. Well, Amazon is there to pick up the slack, after all.

Amazon has a major Syracuse presence?  Where?

ixnay
http://amazon.com
Check it out, if you didn't yet - they sell anything you may ever need!

I've bought a couple of books from there a few years ago.  That's about the extent of my dealings with Amazon.  I prefer QVC.  (I like Amazon's logo, though.)

My question was whether Syracuse had a Middletown, DE-like Amazon facility that most don't know about.  I see where you're coming from, now, kalvado.

ixnay
Amazon distribution facility being built near Albany NY is said to be the first one in upstate.
But my message is indeed that retail is listed as endangered species these days, and if I-81 can become the last straw for the mall is anyone's guess.
Mall's management opinion is not the only one to be heard, but they are a legitimate stakeholder from my perspective.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on September 12, 2019, 09:07:09 PM
Quote from: Henry on September 12, 2019, 10:06:15 AM
The upside to this is that what is now I-481 is already available for a potential I-81 reroute, and that there wouldn't be much difference in its overall length (11.18 miles in its current form, and 15.08 as proposed). I'm just hoping we don't get another Greensboro situation, where residents were complaining about I-40 when it was rerouted, and that ultimately forced it to return to its former route.
That works for north-south traffic going through Syracuse - I-481 is only 3 minutes longer (though IMO it's less interesting and the traffic is not fun).  However, things are much worse for traffic traveling between the west and south (Binghamton/Cortland/PA to the State Fair, Syracuse western suburbs, northern Finger Lakes, much of Lake Ontario, Rochester via the fastest route, etc.) that currently takes I-81 and I-690 to the Thruway.  Here's a comparison of trips from south of exit 16A to west of exit 39:

Existing route (I-81/I-690/I-90): 14.3 miles/15 minutes
I-481/I-690/I-90: 22.5 miles/22 minutes
I-481/I-90: 24.6 miles/23 minutes

It's a much bigger difference.  I'd have a much more favorable opinion of the community grid if the western bypass had been built (which I'd number I-681).

(personal opinion)

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 12, 2019, 02:10:03 PM
If Interstate 481 becomes 81, I assume NY 481 would retain its existing designation since there is already a NY 81 between Rensselaerville and Coxsackie.
Why would NY 481 change even if NY 81 didn't exist?  It's not like I-81 north of there to Canada is being renumbered.  The state route extensions of interstates are just that: extensions, not spurs.  The only one that's technically a spur is NY 787... and the part of I-787 heading towards Troy was once planned to become part of I-88 and is only signed southbound.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on September 13, 2019, 12:13:25 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 12, 2019, 09:07:09 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 12, 2019, 02:10:03 PM
If Interstate 481 becomes 81, I assume NY 481 would retain its existing designation since there is already a NY 81 between Rensselaerville and Coxsackie.
Why would NY 481 change even if NY 81 didn't exist?  It's not like I-81 north of there to Canada is being renumbered.  The state route extensions of interstates are just that: extensions, not spurs.  The only one that's technically a spur is NY 787... and the part of I-787 heading towards Troy was once planned to become part of I-88 and is only signed southbound.
Isn't NY 690 technically a spur off I-690?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TonyTrafficLight on September 13, 2019, 09:34:43 AM
Quote from: ixnay on September 12, 2019, 07:23:33 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 12, 2019, 04:59:31 PM
Quote from: ixnay on September 12, 2019, 03:59:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 12, 2019, 08:47:30 AM
Of course, Canada or Rochester traffic to the mall is not affected by reroute; but southern suburbs and Cornell (out of state money!) are. Well, Amazon is there to pick up the slack, after all.

Amazon has a major Syracuse presence?  Where?

ixnay
http://amazon.com
Check it out, if you didn't yet - they sell anything you may ever need!

I've bought a couple of books from there a few years ago.  That's about the extent of my dealings with Amazon.  I prefer QVC.  (I like Amazon's logo, though.)

My question was whether Syracuse had a Middletown, DE-like Amazon facility that most don't know about.  I see where you're coming from, now, kalvado.

ixnay

Rumor has it, this warehouse that may be built in Liverpool, NY will be for Amazon. At almost 4 million square feet, probably is.

https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-news/who-wants-to-build-a-huge-warehouse-in-clay/

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on September 13, 2019, 01:04:24 PM
Quote from: Alps on September 13, 2019, 12:13:25 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 12, 2019, 09:07:09 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 12, 2019, 02:10:03 PM
If Interstate 481 becomes 81, I assume NY 481 would retain its existing designation since there is already a NY 81 between Rensselaerville and Coxsackie.
Why would NY 481 change even if NY 81 didn't exist?  It's not like I-81 north of there to Canada is being renumbered.  The state route extensions of interstates are just that: extensions, not spurs.  The only one that's technically a spur is NY 787... and the part of I-787 heading towards Troy was once planned to become part of I-88 and is only signed southbound.
Isn't NY 690 technically a spur off I-690?
Really technically (same for NY 890), but there's even less signage (none) than for I-787 in both cases.  You can't even see this in the Functional Class Viewer because all the other Thruway/interstate interchanges are classed as interstates too because of the ramps.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 13, 2019, 07:11:41 PM
In response to the comment that the viaduct will go back up when the "community grid" proves to be insufficient, I think that is wishful thinking. Like anywhere else in the world, once a freeway is torn down, it is gone forever! Syracuse will be stuck with the community grid permanently.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on September 13, 2019, 10:04:46 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 13, 2019, 07:11:41 PM
In response to the comment that the viaduct will go back up when the "community grid" proves to be insufficient, I think that is wishful thinking. Like anywhere else in the world, once a freeway is torn down, it is gone forever! Syracuse will be stuck with the community grid permanently.
It's more of a joke in reference to how I-40 in Greensboro, North Carolina was routed onto the new freeway bypass but then routed back on the old alignment a few years later. At least in that case though, they never tore down the original freeway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: tolbs17 on September 13, 2019, 10:11:43 PM
I hate it when freeways get torn down... Freeways relief traffic congestion!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: SGwithADD on September 13, 2019, 11:18:04 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 12, 2019, 09:07:09 PM
Quote from: Henry on September 12, 2019, 10:06:15 AM
The upside to this is that what is now I-481 is already available for a potential I-81 reroute, and that there wouldn't be much difference in its overall length (11.18 miles in its current form, and 15.08 as proposed). I'm just hoping we don't get another Greensboro situation, where residents were complaining about I-40 when it was rerouted, and that ultimately forced it to return to its former route.
That works for north-south traffic going through Syracuse - I-481 is only 3 minutes longer (though IMO it's less interesting and the traffic is not fun).  However, things are much worse for traffic traveling between the west and south (Binghamton/Cortland/PA to the State Fair, Syracuse western suburbs, northern Finger Lakes, much of Lake Ontario, Rochester via the fastest route, etc.) that currently takes I-81 and I-690 to the Thruway.  Here's a comparison of trips from south of exit 16A to west of exit 39:

Existing route (I-81/I-690/I-90): 14.3 miles/15 minutes
I-481/I-690/I-90: 22.5 miles/22 minutes
I-481/I-90: 24.6 miles/23 minutes

It's a much bigger difference.  I'd have a much more favorable opinion of the community grid if the western bypass had been built (which I'd number I-681).

(personal opinion)

Similarly, it's another 9.0 miles/8 minutes to go from 16A to the SYR airport using I-481 instead of I-81.  This has become more important recently for folks in the Binghamton area, as ever since American and United pulled out of BGM, many people drive up to SYR for flights on those airlines (and for overall cheaper fares).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on September 14, 2019, 12:01:59 PM
Quote from: mrhappy1261 on September 13, 2019, 10:11:43 PM
I hate it when freeways get torn down... Freeways relief traffic congestion!

They also have a history of creating traffic congestion.  Consider that dichotomy.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on September 14, 2019, 01:19:00 PM
Quote from: froggie on September 14, 2019, 12:01:59 PM
Quote from: mrhappy1261 on September 13, 2019, 10:11:43 PM
I hate it when freeways get torn down... Freeways relief traffic congestion!

They also have a history of creating traffic congestion.  Consider that dichotomy.
I suppose you are playing devils advocate but saying freeways create congestion is a non-statement, IMO. I mean the obvious is out there and ones definition of success would likely be something that is popular or used a lot. A victim of its own success certainly applies here. So the urbanists would love to just give up so people are either forced to take transit or suffer nightmare congestion. Where freeways aren't widened traffic still increases and never have I seen a no build alt. factored in whenever an induced demand argument is made when people whine about freeways being jammed that were just widened.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on September 14, 2019, 05:34:14 PM
Quote from: froggie on September 14, 2019, 12:01:59 PM
Quote from: mrhappy1261 on September 13, 2019, 10:11:43 PM
I hate it when freeways get torn down... Freeways relief traffic congestion!

They also have a history of creating traffic congestion.  Consider that dichotomy.
Traffic on I-481 would be significantly worse if I-81 was demolished.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: tolbs17 on September 14, 2019, 06:56:27 PM
It's also like saying that you want I-275 demolished and I-4 traffic would be way worse in Florida. It does make room for more development, but it's better to demolish buildings that are too close to the main highway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on September 16, 2019, 12:08:47 PM
Quote from: froggie on September 14, 2019, 12:01:59 PM
Quote from: mrhappy1261 on September 13, 2019, 10:11:43 PM
I hate it when freeways get torn down... Freeways relief traffic congestion!
They also have a history of creating traffic congestion.  Consider that dichotomy.

Making it easier to travel, releasing suppressed demand, and causing volumes to rise, isn't the same thing as creating "congestion".
Overall congestion always or almost always improves with freeway construction. I can't even come up with any counter-examples.

Quote from: sprjus4 on September 14, 2019, 05:34:14 PM
Traffic on I-481 would be significantly worse if I-81 was demolished.

And the Thruway. And in downtown Syracuse.
The overall movement of people and goods within and through Syracuse will get worse in pretty much every possible way.
I can't think of one single part of the Syracuse area where the residents won't see drastically increased travel times and longer commutes. Origin and destination are almost irrelevant; it will occur across the board.
Further, making almost every major destination (including Destiny, SU, the airport, and the State Fair) less accessible will add to this effect and stifle the already struggling economy.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on September 16, 2019, 04:57:56 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 16, 2019, 12:08:47 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 14, 2019, 05:34:14 PM
Traffic on I-481 would be significantly worse if I-81 was demolished.
And the Thruway. And in downtown Syracuse.
The overall movement of people and goods within and through Syracuse will get worse in pretty much every possible way.
I can't think of one single part of the Syracuse area where the residents won't see drastically increased travel times and longer commutes. Origin and destination are almost irrelevant; it will occur across the board.
Further, making almost every major destination (including Destiny, SU, the airport, and the State Fair) less accessible will add to this effect and stifle the already struggling economy.

$1.9 billon to dismantle it, and $2.2 billion to replace it and rebuild the interchange.

What a waste.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on September 16, 2019, 06:17:51 PM
Quote from: Beltway on September 16, 2019, 04:57:56 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 16, 2019, 12:08:47 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 14, 2019, 05:34:14 PM
Traffic on I-481 would be significantly worse if I-81 was demolished.
And the Thruway. And in downtown Syracuse.
The overall movement of people and goods within and through Syracuse will get worse in pretty much every possible way.
I can't think of one single part of the Syracuse area where the residents won't see drastically increased travel times and longer commutes. Origin and destination are almost irrelevant; it will occur across the board.
Further, making almost every major destination (including Destiny, SU, the airport, and the State Fair) less accessible will add to this effect and stifle the already struggling economy.

$1.9 billon to dismantle it, and $2.2 billion to replace it and rebuild the interchange.

What a waste.

We talked about it a lot - rebuild as-is would be relatively easy; but this is a 4-lane highway which needs 6 lanes - and may need an upgrade to 8, with no ROW and even no proper shoulders, curves requiring 45 MPH limit... And not  easy to navigate if you're not local...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on September 17, 2019, 09:20:06 AM
Quote from: webny99Making it easier to travel, releasing suppressed demand, and causing volumes to rise, isn't the same thing as creating "congestion".

Look up induced demand.  Despite some naysayers on this forum, it is a well-documented outcome.  New roadway construction doesn't just shift traffic over from other facilities, it entices (induces) new trips to be taken...and this is where your congestion often comes into play.  Perhaps not right away but it won't take long especially if there's already latent (i.e. unmet) demand in a given region.

There have also been cases where new freeway facilities got overwhelmed simply from the volume of traffic that was shifted over from other locations.  You can argue semantics all you want about whether that's "congestion" but the bottom line is that the congestion wasn't reduced overall and you're simply robbing Peter to pay Paul.

And this is to say nothing about the environmental, societal, and financial costs of freeway construction in heavily built up or environmentally sensitive (thinking wetlands specifically here) areas.  I'm not necessarily saying a given project shouldn't be done, but the costs of such need to be fully weighed against the benefits.  Far too often, freeway promoters ignored the full costs of construction....this is in no small part what led rise to the freeway revolts of the '60s and '70s, because the highwaymen thought they could simply bulldoze over the opposition (pun intended).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: hotdogPi on September 17, 2019, 09:32:01 AM
Quote from: froggie on September 17, 2019, 09:20:06 AM
Quote from: webny99Making it easier to travel, releasing suppressed demand, and causing volumes to rise, isn't the same thing as creating "congestion".

Look up induced demand.  Despite some naysayers on this forum, it is a well-documented outcome.  New roadway construction doesn't just shift traffic over from other facilities, it entices (induces) new trips to be taken...and this is where your congestion often comes into play.  Perhaps not right away but it won't take long especially if there's already latent (i.e. unmet) demand in a given region.

There have also been cases where new freeway facilities got overwhelmed simply from the volume of traffic that was shifted over from other locations.  You can argue semantics all you want about whether that's "congestion" but the bottom line is that the congestion wasn't reduced overall and you're simply robbing Peter to pay Paul.

And this is to say nothing about the environmental, societal, and financial costs of freeway construction in heavily built up or environmentally sensitive (thinking wetlands specifically here) areas.  I'm not necessarily saying a given project shouldn't be done, but the costs of such need to be fully weighed against the benefits.  Far too often, freeway promoters ignored the full costs of construction....this is in no small part what led rise to the freeway revolts of the '60s and '70s, because the highwaymen thought they could simply bulldoze over the opposition (pun intended).

Upstate New York isn't growing much.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on September 17, 2019, 09:44:54 AM
Quote from: froggie on September 17, 2019, 09:20:06 AM
Quote from: webny99Making it easier to travel, releasing suppressed demand, and causing volumes to rise, isn't the same thing as creating "congestion".

Look up induced demand.  Despite some naysayers on this forum, it is a well-documented outcome.  New roadway construction doesn't just shift traffic over from other facilities, it entices (induces) new trips to be taken...and this is where your congestion often comes into play.  Perhaps not right away but it won't take long especially if there's already latent (i.e. unmet) demand in a given region.

There have also been cases where new freeway facilities got overwhelmed simply from the volume of traffic that was shifted over from other locations.  You can argue semantics all you want about whether that's "congestion" but the bottom line is that the congestion wasn't reduced overall and you're simply robbing Peter to pay Paul.

And this is to say nothing about the environmental, societal, and financial costs of freeway construction in heavily built up or environmentally sensitive (thinking wetlands specifically here) areas.  I'm not necessarily saying a given project shouldn't be done, but the costs of such need to be fully weighed against the benefits.  Far too often, freeway promoters ignored the full costs of construction....this is in no small part what led rise to the freeway revolts of the '60s and '70s, because the highwaymen thought they could simply bulldoze over the opposition (pun intended).
What you're describing is suppressed demand. WHich does exists, of course, and which may show up after the new construction. Mobility - including the ability to change jobs on short notice - is an important factor of the modern social system. Suppressing demand may have its positive aspects, but doesn't really fit in a grand scheme of things.
To bring things to a bit of extreme:
Yet again, what you're coming to, is that the best society with minimal travel needs is a dorm above production floor, kids schooled in a basement room, where leaving factory campus without a proper permit is strictly prohibited. Once you allow people to travel off-campus, strange things may happen.


Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on September 17, 2019, 11:30:36 AM
Quote from: froggie on September 17, 2019, 09:20:06 AM
Quote from: webny99Making it easier to travel, releasing suppressed demand, and causing volumes to rise, isn't the same thing as creating "congestion".

Look up induced demand.  Despite some naysayers on this forum, it is a well-documented outcome.  New roadway construction doesn't just shift traffic over from other facilities, it entices (induces) new trips to be taken...and this is where your congestion often comes into play.  Perhaps not right away but it won't take long especially if there's already latent (i.e. unmet) demand in a given region.

There have also been cases where new freeway facilities got overwhelmed simply from the volume of traffic that was shifted over from other locations.  You can argue semantics all you want about whether that's "congestion" but the bottom line is that the congestion wasn't reduced overall and you're simply robbing Peter to pay Paul.

And this is to say nothing about the environmental, societal, and financial costs of freeway construction in heavily built up or environmentally sensitive (thinking wetlands specifically here) areas.  I'm not necessarily saying a given project shouldn't be done, but the costs of such need to be fully weighed against the benefits.  Far too often, freeway promoters ignored the full costs of construction....this is in no small part what led rise to the freeway revolts of the '60s and '70s, because the highwaymen thought they could simply bulldoze over the opposition (pun intended).

I actually don't disagree with any of that, at least not strongly enough to spend a lot of time on, as you say, semantics.

But there is really two separate conversations to be had: one about truly new freeway construction, often in rural or semi-rural areas, and one about an existing urban structure that has been around for decades and needs replacing.
Case in point, it is much easier to argue that the viaduct should be replaced, than it is to argue that the western bypass of Syracuse should be dug up from the grave and constructed. The latter would be a massive systemwide shakeup, with two very obvious sides to the coin, while the former should be an obvious go-ahead; how could it even be questioned as a critical high-priority project for Syracuse and Upstate NY as a whole?

Quote from: 1 on September 17, 2019, 09:32:01 AM
Upstate New York isn't growing much.

Also true, and if it was growing, this wouldn't even be a conversation we were having.
Imagine similar discussion in Charlotte, NC, or Portland, OR, for example; ridiculous to even think about.
I-81 in Syracuse is a freeway removal guinea pig precisely because the area isn't on the upswing, so the blowback (and added congestion) won't be as extreme or pronounced as it would be in a similar-sized city anywhere else.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on September 17, 2019, 07:20:24 PM
Quote from: froggie on September 17, 2019, 09:20:06 AM
Far too often, freeway promoters ignored the full costs of construction....
To be fair, the community grid concept that is proposed is $1.9 billion to construct, whereas replacing the viaduct with a new viaduct and reconstructing a major junction would be $2.2 billion - only a $300 million difference.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on September 17, 2019, 09:01:52 PM
This discussion has me thinking. Has NYSDOT ever identified, and later changed, their preferred alternative after public blowback (or for any other reason)?

Obviously, this is one of the bigger projects being undertaken, so a shakeup of any sort would be noteworthy. I'm just reading through this thread and a few other sources and trying to assess the chance that they're forced to revisit the rebuild option. Maybe a 20% chance that the rebuild comes back to the table in a legitimate, meaningful way?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on September 17, 2019, 09:07:38 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 17, 2019, 07:20:24 PM
Quote from: froggie on September 17, 2019, 09:20:06 AM
Far too often, freeway promoters ignored the full costs of construction....
To be fair, the community grid concept that is proposed is $1.9 billion to construct, whereas replacing the viaduct with a new viaduct and reconstructing a major junction would be $2.2 billion - only a $300 million difference.
The community grid concept isn't just simple as dismantling the viaduct.  Transitions would have to be built at either end to transition the freeway stub down to the surface streets, the surface streets would need upgrading, and each I-81/I-481 interchange would need a major upgrade to provide an I-81 thru movement.

That said, the cost-benefit ratio is horribly against the community grid as compared to the freeway project, as your figures above substantiate.  90% of the cost for a huge loss of regional capacity and connectivity.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on September 18, 2019, 12:58:40 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 17, 2019, 09:01:52 PM
This discussion has me thinking. Has NYSDOT ever identified, and later changed, their preferred alternative after public blowback (or for any other reason)?

Obviously, this is one of the bigger projects being undertaken, so a shakeup of any sort would be noteworthy. I'm just reading through this thread and a few other sources and trying to assess the chance that they're forced to revisit the rebuild option. Maybe a 20% chance that the rebuild comes back to the table in a legitimate, meaningful way?
It happened on a bridge project on the Northway.  The project was to replace the overpasses for Crescent and East High and to close/demolish the one for Nelson; after significant opposition, the plan to close/demolish Nelson was dropped and the project proceeded with just the replacements for Crescent and East High.

That said, I would assume the I-81 preferred alternative has a lower chance of being changed for a multitude of reasons - chief among them being that whether one supports the grid or the viaduct is very much a matter of ideology (New Urbanism vs. highways).

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 18, 2019, 01:55:12 PM
So the "community grid" is what will ultimately be constructed? That's depressing. I hope Syracuse doesn't live to regret it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 22, 2019, 12:10:25 AM
Here's how to do it --

New photos of I-59/20 Bridge Construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/g66l-2019/06/b9a7e8569c9394/new-photos-of-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html

(https://www.al.com/resizer/V5Cv52W0kI8j5NI3UFND6DwZAZ8=/700x0/smart/advancelocal-adapter-image-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/expo.advance.net/img/6fb04d7504/width2048/230_i5920bridgeconstruction612190083.jpeg)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 22, 2019, 01:58:24 PM
This would be the way to do it, if the preferred alternative was to rebuild the Interstate 81 viaduct. Since the preferred alternative is the "community grid", perhaps this story would be more appropriate (not every aspect, just the freeway-to-boulevard conversion part):

The End Of The Central Freeway In Hayes Valley (in San Francisco)
https://hoodline.com/2015/08/the-end-of-the-central-freeway-in-hayes-valley
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2019, 03:04:18 PM
The ideal solution would be to get our infrastructure costs under control and build the tunnel with moderate access to downtown and the community grid. This gives the best of both worlds. So many other countries can do this in their cities and the US can't.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: PHLBOS on October 22, 2019, 03:42:05 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2019, 03:04:18 PMSo many other countries can do this in their cities and the US can''t.
It's probably a reasonable assumption that those other countries you speak of don't have the permitting hoops that like-projects in the US have to go through.  Such alone can add years if not decades to a project before ground is even broken.  Not to mention that those other countries are probably much more forceful when it comes to eminent domain.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on October 22, 2019, 03:56:02 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 22, 2019, 12:10:25 AM
Here's how to do it --

New photos of I-59/20 Bridge Construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/g66l-2019/06/b9a7e8569c9394/new-photos-of-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html

(https://www.al.com/resizer/V5Cv52W0kI8j5NI3UFND6DwZAZ8=/700x0/smart/advancelocal-adapter-image-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/expo.advance.net/img/6fb04d7504/width2048/230_i5920bridgeconstruction612190083.jpeg)
The beauty is not only are they replacing the viaduct in Downtown, I-59 thru traffic also has I-459 as a bypass. Very comparable to I-295 around Richmond. Nice mostly 6-8 lane rural freeway that is pretty much a direct shot.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 22, 2019, 04:07:53 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2019, 03:04:18 PM
The ideal solution would be to get our infrastructure costs under control and build the tunnel with moderate access to downtown and the community grid. This gives the best of both worlds. So many other countries can do this in their cities and the US can't.
Great solution - but not in Syracuse soil, as far as I understand.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on October 22, 2019, 04:34:50 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on October 22, 2019, 03:42:05 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2019, 03:04:18 PMSo many other countries can do this in their cities and the US can''t.
It's probably a reasonable assumption that those other countries you speak of don't have the permitting hoops that like-projects in the US have to go through.  Such alone can add years if not decades to a project before ground is even broken.  Not to mention that those other countries are probably much more forceful when it comes to eminent domain.

Have you not see the volume of design changes that a typical U.S. project will undertake during the course of construction (let alone a large project)?  That's arguably a bigger reason for the massive cost overruns we see in the U.S. than the documentation/permitting issues you mention.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2019, 04:48:56 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on October 22, 2019, 03:42:05 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2019, 03:04:18 PMSo many other countries can do this in their cities and the US can''t.
It's probably a reasonable assumption that those other countries you speak of don't have the permitting hoops that like-projects in the US have to go through.  Such alone can add years if not decades to a project before ground is even broken.  Not to mention that those other countries are probably much more forceful when it comes to eminent domain.
Right and I understand what you and Froggie are saying. I am not suggesting we go to the extremes that China has regarding ED nor am I suggesting a complete disregard for the environment like we used to have in the early 20th century.

I do think we got too carried away with the public input(more specifically with the ridiculousness of locally preferred alternatives), environmental reviews, and not to mention seemingly partisan affect that is becoming more evident on infrastructure building(Dems being more partial to mass transit and repubs freeways). Certain projects that are of high priority and needed now should get some exemptions and passes to be constructed that would allow for reasonable time frames. 10+ years is arguably not that and 20+ is insanity. Projects like the Golden Gate Bridge were built in 4 years. I doubt she went through 10 years of planning.

Again I know costs for infrastructure in developed countries are always going to be higher with some more so and I'm fine with that but a community grids surface street costing almost 2 billion dollars is mind boggling. I don't even want to know what the estimated for the tunnel were.

There has got to be compromises made somewhere. If we're just going to accept the status quo of projects like a new Bay Area bridge and tube not happening for 20+ years when it was needed in the last decade, then there isn't much hope.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2019, 04:49:39 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 22, 2019, 04:07:53 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2019, 03:04:18 PM
The ideal solution would be to get our infrastructure costs under control and build the tunnel with moderate access to downtown and the community grid. This gives the best of both worlds. So many other countries can do this in their cities and the US can't.
Great solution - but not in Syracuse soil, as far as I understand.
They did study this, no? I have heard something about the soil there before. It is unstable?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on October 22, 2019, 05:39:39 PM
Eh, the soil in that area doesn't look horrible. Low water table, well-drained. It's not like the stuff north and east of Buffalo that is poorly-drained with a high water table. There's a reason most buildings at SUNY Buffalo have no basement and are built on piles.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 22, 2019, 07:59:06 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 22, 2019, 05:39:39 PM
Eh, the soil in that area doesn't look horrible. Low water table, well-drained. It's not like the stuff north and east of Buffalo that is poorly-drained with a high water table. There's a reason most buildings at SUNY Buffalo have no basement and are built on piles.
If  my memory serves me right, water table is linked to the lake, and fairly close to the surface. I am fairly sure I had a link to the elevations map somewhere in this thread.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 22, 2019, 08:42:34 PM
The cheapest option was chosen. That's basically it.

Something tells me Syracuse's pull on Albany doesn't quite match Birmingham's pull on Montgomery. :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on October 22, 2019, 09:16:08 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2019, 08:42:34 PM
The cheapest option was chosen. That's basically it.

Something tells me Syracuse's pull on Albany doesn't quite match Birmingham's pull on Montgomery. :D
Barely any cheap, only a couple hundred million out of an already multi-billion dollar project. Not to mention, the benefits are far greater on regional traffic flow with the viaduct replacement whereas the "cheaper"  one will only choke the beltway further, and eventually call for a widening of its own which could easily ultimately exceed the cost of just replacing the viaduct.

Not to mention local traffic freeway movements are eliminated and will require surface street driving to navigate as opposed to existing freeway.

It's a RE/T project and they won this one it seems. New York's DOT is a joke for going along with it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 22, 2019, 09:21:11 PM
A couple hundred million is not small change, even in NY for cash-strapped NYSDOT (compared to the systems' needs).  The cost of the project also includes some improvements to I-481, so it isn't like those billions are just spent on tearing the viaduct down and building a boulevard.

Oh, and stop trying to make "RE/T" happen.  It's not going to happen.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on October 22, 2019, 09:34:38 PM
It seems to me that at the end of the day, cost is just another bullet point in favor of the grid; significant, but hardly central to the overall decision.

Seriously, if this was any other state, a grid option would have been laughed out of the park, and the entire conversation would be about replacement, not removal. Cost would never even have come up as a talking point. And why should it? This a major thru interstate that provides vital statewide, regional, and local connectivity!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 22, 2019, 09:36:45 PM
All I can say to that is that you're wrong. :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on October 22, 2019, 09:39:13 PM
Wrong about what; the first bit?

I think it's obvious as to what would have happened in other states vs. what's happening here. I-59 is just one example. No doubt there will be many more examples in years to come.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on October 22, 2019, 09:43:05 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 22, 2019, 07:59:06 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 22, 2019, 05:39:39 PM
Eh, the soil in that area doesn't look horrible. Low water table, well-drained. It's not like the stuff north and east of Buffalo that is poorly-drained with a high water table. There's a reason most buildings at SUNY Buffalo have no basement and are built on piles.
If  my memory serves me right, water table is linked to the lake, and fairly close to the surface. I am fairly sure I had a link to the elevations map somewhere in this thread.

The soil map for that area (https://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx) is maxed out for the water table ("more than 80 inches"). The lowest point of the viaduct is a good 25 feet above the lake surface elevation.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 22, 2019, 09:51:41 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 22, 2019, 09:39:13 PM
Wrong about what; the first bit?

I think it's obvious as to what would have happened in other states vs. what's happening here. I-59 is just one example. No doubt there will be many more examples in years to come.
See my earlier post.  Syracuse has no pull.  No pull means the State won't send more money than it wants to.  Therefore, cost becomes the primary variable in the State's decision.

Birmingham is the biggest city in Alabama.  Of course they're getting the big bucks.  If I-81 went through New York City, it'd be a very different story.

(And before you point out the Sheridan, the City had a much stronger stance on it than any alternative for the viaduct had in Syracuse)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 22, 2019, 09:53:45 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on October 22, 2019, 09:16:08 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2019, 08:42:34 PM
The cheapest option was chosen. That's basically it.
Something tells me Syracuse's pull on Albany doesn't quite match Birmingham's pull on Montgomery. :D
Barely any cheap, only a couple hundred million out of an already multi-billion dollar project. Not to mention, the benefits are far greater on regional traffic flow with the viaduct replacement whereas the "cheaper"  one will only choke the beltway further, and eventually call for a widening of its own which could easily ultimately exceed the cost of just replacing the viaduct.
Not to mention local traffic freeway movements are eliminated and will require surface street driving to navigate as opposed to existing freeway.
It's a RE/T project and they won this one it seems. New York's DOT is a joke for going along with it.
The "community grid" costs 91% of what the viaduct replacement project would cost.

Results in a huge reduction in capacity and severing of vital access links as opposed to a moderate increase in capacity and safety.

The anti-highway activist/obstructionist (AHA/O) groups are undoubtedly pleased.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 22, 2019, 09:56:16 PM
AHA/O may actually catch on.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on October 22, 2019, 11:47:49 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2019, 09:56:16 PM
AHA/O may actually catch on.
No more than RE/T will. Can we stick with NIMBY and BANANA plz?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2019, 02:33:47 AM
Pardon my ignorance but what is RE/T and AHA/O
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Verlanka on October 23, 2019, 04:58:09 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2019, 02:33:47 AM
Pardon my ignorance but what is RE/T and AHA/O
AHA/O = Anti-Highway Activist/Obstructionist. Not sure about RE/T, though.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on October 23, 2019, 07:12:10 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2019, 02:33:47 AM
Pardon my ignorance but what is RE/T
Radical environmentalist/transit groups.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2019, 02:33:47 AM
and AHA/O
Go up a few posts.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2019, 07:25:41 AM
thanks for the info!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on October 23, 2019, 10:49:55 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2019, 09:51:41 PM
See my earlier post.  Syracuse has no pull.  No pull means the State won't send more money than it wants to.  Therefore, cost becomes the primary variable in the State's decision.

Right, I get that. But is the state actually completely unwilling to send a penny more than necessary to Syracuse? Maybe, but I'm not convinced. Funds are being poured in to a number of other Upstate projects, but it's clear here that the state wants - and will make sure they get - the grid. So I keep coming back to the grid being very much pre-ordained as a pet project, and cost being a major talking point/crutch in favor of an otherwise hard-to-defend alternative.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 23, 2019, 01:16:08 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 22, 2019, 09:43:05 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 22, 2019, 07:59:06 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 22, 2019, 05:39:39 PM
Eh, the soil in that area doesn't look horrible. Low water table, well-drained. It's not like the stuff north and east of Buffalo that is poorly-drained with a high water table. There's a reason most buildings at SUNY Buffalo have no basement and are built on piles.
If  my memory serves me right, water table is linked to the lake, and fairly close to the surface. I am fairly sure I had a link to the elevations map somewhere in this thread.

The soil map for that area (https://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx) is maxed out for the water table ("more than 80 inches"). The lowest point of the viaduct is a good 25 feet above the lake surface elevation.

Challenge accepted! Took a bit of looking for documents.
Here is an appendix D of an independent feasibility study for the tunnel: https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/Appendix%20B-3_Independent%20Tunnel%20Feasibility%20Study_04-19-2019%20Appendix%20C-D.pdf
(D is further down the document)
Study itself is an appendix to a bigger document: https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/library

There are a few interesting things in the document. As for our discussion
QuoteBoth the depressed roadway alternatives and the underground roadway alternatives generally will be constructed below the groundwater table. The groundwater is presumed to be saline.
Stressed soil and flammable/toxic  gas release from shale soil are two other issues for construction.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on October 23, 2019, 01:20:48 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2019, 08:42:34 PM
The cheapest option was chosen. That's basically it.

Something tells me Syracuse's pull on Albany doesn't quite match Birmingham's pull on Montgomery. :D

Eh, I can see there being more to it.  Cuomo has been pretty on board with freeway removal projects (see: the Scajaquada, Buffalo Skyway, and the Sheridan; I think the Inner Loop was a city project, but if not, add it to the list too).  And like the Sheridan, the city strongly wants to remove I-81; the choice only becomes more controversial once the suburbs and thru traffic are taken into account.

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 23, 2019, 01:22:58 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 23, 2019, 10:49:55 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2019, 09:51:41 PM
See my earlier post.  Syracuse has no pull.  No pull means the State won't send more money than it wants to.  Therefore, cost becomes the primary variable in the State's decision.

Right, I get that. But is the state actually completely unwilling to send a penny more than necessary to Syracuse? Maybe, but I'm not convinced. Funds are being poured in to a number of other Upstate projects, but it's clear here that the state wants - and will make sure they get - the grid. So I keep coming back to the grid being very much pre-ordained as a pet project, and cost being a major talking point/crutch in favor of an otherwise hard-to-defend alternative.

If you think about it... Syracuse area population is 662k, we're talking about.. lets round the number - $3.3B for construction, that is $5k per area resident.
Assuming a current federal gas tax rate of ~0.7 cents/mile and typical mileage, say, 13k.year - or $100 per vehicle a year; this project is consuming 50 years worth of federal gas tax paid by the area, or 20-25 years if NYS taxes are included, before any maintenance or other road needs are considered
You may twist the number in many ways - but the message is simple: construction money are not going to come from taxes generated by the road use in the area, which is a significant issue for the road with majority of traffic being commuters. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 23, 2019, 01:23:55 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 23, 2019, 01:20:48 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2019, 08:42:34 PM
The cheapest option was chosen. That's basically it.

Something tells me Syracuse's pull on Albany doesn't quite match Birmingham's pull on Montgomery. :D

Eh, I can see there being more to it.  Cuomo has been pretty on board with freeway removal projects (see: the Scajaquada, Buffalo Skyway, and the Sheridan; I think the Inner Loop was a city project, but if not, add it to the list too).  And like the Sheridan, the city strongly wants to remove I-81; the choice only becomes more controversial once the suburbs and thru traffic are taken into account.

(personal opinion)
On the other hand, 787 got a major rehab under current administration...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on October 23, 2019, 01:55:59 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 23, 2019, 01:23:55 PM
On the other hand, 787 got a major rehab under current administration...
The Buffalo Skyway just had a major rehab too (I think it just finished, but may still be under construction).  Doesn't mean that Cuomo isn't pushing removal in the relatively near term.

Regarding I-787, I think the debate on removing it is more recent than many of the other corridors.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on October 23, 2019, 02:48:09 PM
787 will also be a far harder sell than the others for a variety of reasons. Even as it is, the Skyway and 81 are going to have quite a few lawsuits and some strong opposition from the suburbs. 787 has higher traffic counts than anything else they've proposed removing.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on October 23, 2019, 07:28:52 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 23, 2019, 01:55:59 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 23, 2019, 01:23:55 PM
On the other hand, 787 got a major rehab under current administration...
The Buffalo Skyway just had a major rehab too (I think it just finished, but may still be under construction).  Doesn't mean that Cuomo isn't pushing removal in the relatively near term.

Regarding I-787, I think the debate on removing it is more recent than many of the other corridors.

The Skyway was a bridge deck rehab, if I am not mistaken. It adds approximately 15-20 years to the life expectancy of the bridge, which gives plenty of time for those decisions to be made on its future.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on October 24, 2019, 09:41:09 PM
Wow, this thread has blown up since I last looked at it!  Here's a few thoughts on some of the recent posts that stood out to me:

Quote from: Beltway on October 22, 2019, 09:53:45 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on October 22, 2019, 09:16:08 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2019, 08:42:34 PM
The cheapest option was chosen. That's basically it.
Something tells me Syracuse's pull on Albany doesn't quite match Birmingham's pull on Montgomery. :D
Barely any cheap, only a couple hundred million out of an already multi-billion dollar project. Not to mention, the benefits are far greater on regional traffic flow with the viaduct replacement whereas the "cheaper"  one will only choke the beltway further, and eventually call for a widening of its own which could easily ultimately exceed the cost of just replacing the viaduct.
Not to mention local traffic freeway movements are eliminated and will require surface street driving to navigate as opposed to existing freeway.
It's a RE/T project and they won this one it seems. New York's DOT is a joke for going along with it.
The "community grid" costs 91% of what the viaduct replacement project would cost.

Results in a huge reduction in capacity and severing of vital access links as opposed to a moderate increase in capacity and safety.

The anti-highway activist/obstructionist (AHA/O) groups are undoubtedly pleased.

I agree that one of the biggest reasons that the grid is being pushed is cost.  It has always seemed silly to me since it isn't much cheaper than a replacement, but seeing the 91% really makes it stand out more to me!

Quote from: webny99 on October 23, 2019, 10:49:55 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2019, 09:51:41 PM
See my earlier post.  Syracuse has no pull.  No pull means the State won't send more money than it wants to.  Therefore, cost becomes the primary variable in the State's decision.

Right, I get that. But is the state actually completely unwilling to send a penny more than necessary to Syracuse? Maybe, but I'm not convinced. Funds are being poured in to a number of other Upstate projects, but it's clear here that the state wants - and will make sure they get - the grid. So I keep coming back to the grid being very much pre-ordained as a pet project, and cost being a major talking point/crutch in favor of an otherwise hard-to-defend alternative.

I agree that it seems like this is a pet project for the state and/or NYSDOT.




A couple days ago, I saw an article on Syracuse.com about the grid needing more land than originally stated:
Exclusive: I-81 project would take land from unsuspecting homeowners; "Ëœthat's my backyard' (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/10/exclusive-i-81-project-would-take-land-from-unsuspecting-homeowners-thats-my-backyard.html)

I wonder how this will affect the opinions of people who support the grid because of the smaller impact since the impact isn't as small after all.




Yesterday, I saw a post from NewsChannel 9 on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/NewsChannel9/posts/10157607684785351) that mentioned an article from the Washington Post:
In Syracuse, a road and reparations (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/10/20/how-crumbling-bridge-syracuse-is-sparking-conversation-about-reparations/?arc404=true)

The article is long, so I just skimmed through it.  The gist I got is that the viaduct is racist, and it needs to be removed to repair the damage done when it was first built.  I've read that argument before, and I'm open to the idea that it may have been racist at the time it was built, but I have a hard time believing that it's racist now and removing it will magically make everything better.  To me, it's a more specific version of the "it divides people" argument, which I've mentioned before that I think is silly.




A thought I've had before about building impacts, but never mentioned in the thread is what about moving buildings?  I've seen some pretty big buildings moved, and there's open land south of I-690 just to the east of it's interchange with I-81.  Once the bridges come down, there shouldn't be too many overhead obstacles in the way.

Lastly, I wonder if people complaining about the cost of either option realize that this project involves more than just the viaduct.  They may not realize that it's going to involve all of I-81 in Syracuse, I-690 through downtown, and if the grid is chosen, the two I-481 interchanges and some of I-481 itself.  That's a lot more than just a viaduct!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Henry on November 18, 2019, 12:13:02 PM
I went ahead and drew up an exit list for the upcoming reroute, which shows both the sequential and potential mileage-based exit numbering schemes:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49085046353_ad48cbf333_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hMtGbD)I-81 NY Reroute Part 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2hMtGbD) by Henry Watson (https://www.flickr.com/photos/155587311@N07/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49085770637_f160b8cce3_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hMxpui)I-81 NY Reroute Part 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2hMxpui) by Henry Watson (https://www.flickr.com/photos/155587311@N07/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49085046343_331de2e488_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hMtGbt)I-81 NY Reroute Part 3 (https://flic.kr/p/2hMtGbt) by Henry Watson (https://www.flickr.com/photos/155587311@N07/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on November 18, 2019, 01:09:35 PM
A few notes:
-NY appears to have the "round down" method as policy.
-The "old exit" numbers appear to be equally fictional as the "new exit" numbers.
-182B/182A isn't MUTCD compliant - should be reversed.
-NY is moving away from the "don't number freeway junctions" policy.  Actually, the Wikipedia exit list is a little outdated on this - what's listed as exit 4 is now 4A and the NY 17 junction is now 4B.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Henry on November 19, 2019, 09:44:32 AM
Everything south of the I-481 junction in south Syracuse would remain the same, but north of the I-481/NY 481 junction in Cicero, the exit numbers would go down by five while the mileage would go up by 3.9 (187.52 compared to the current 183.62). And the former would be assuming that NY does not adopt a mileage-based numbering scheme statewide, though given that I-84 was already converted, it would only be a matter of time before the other Interstates got the same treatment.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on November 19, 2019, 12:50:42 PM
They're not really "old" numbers then, are they?  In any case, I doubt the whole road would be renumbered if I-81 were to remain sequential since there are fewer interchanges on the new route than the old, and I think someone posted a report that it would go mile-based if rerouted anyways.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on November 21, 2019, 07:56:32 PM
Quote from: vdeane on November 19, 2019, 12:50:42 PM
They're not really "old" numbers then, are they?  In any case, I doubt the whole road would be renumbered if I-81 were to remain sequential since there are fewer interchanges on the new route than the old, and I think someone posted a report that it would go mile-based if rerouted anyways.

Yes, according the conversations I had with R3 two years ago, since I-81 would be relocated, they would have to renumber all the interchanges in the new alignment and because of that change it's been decided that's when they'll go to milepost numbers for the entire route. R3 has already been coordinating with the other two regions. This would happen even if they went to the non-grid alternative, as the number of interchanges would still change.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on November 21, 2019, 10:42:31 PM
Quote from: machias on November 21, 2019, 07:56:32 PM
Quote from: vdeane on November 19, 2019, 12:50:42 PM
They're not really "old" numbers then, are they?  In any case, I doubt the whole road would be renumbered if I-81 were to remain sequential since there are fewer interchanges on the new route than the old, and I think someone posted a report that it would go mile-based if rerouted anyways.

Yes, according the conversations I had with R3 two years ago, since I-81 would be relocated, they would have to renumber all the interchanges in the new alignment and because of that change it's been decided that's when they'll go to milepost numbers for the entire route. R3 has already been coordinating with the other two regions. This would happen even if they went to the non-grid alternative, as the number of interchanges would still change.

And now that I think about it, NY 481 would have to get all new exit numbers as well if NYSDOT with the grid plan in Downtown Syracuse and they would then go to distance based as well.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on November 22, 2019, 01:23:05 AM
Since the existing freeway portion of present I-81 north of I-690 will remain intact, are there any rumblings regarding reassigning the I-481 number to that segment -- since it will undoubtedly remain on the FHWA logbooks as chargeable mileage?   It would seem quite logical to do that as a continuation (albeit less direct) of NY 481. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on November 22, 2019, 08:01:20 AM
Quote from: sparker on November 22, 2019, 01:23:05 AM
Since the existing freeway portion of present I-81 north of I-690 will remain intact, are there any rumblings regarding reassigning the I-481 number to that segment -- since it will undoubtedly remain on the FHWA logbooks as chargeable mileage?   It would seem quite logical to do that as a continuation (albeit less direct) of NY 481.
No.  It will become BL I-81, per most recent presentations.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadsguy on November 22, 2019, 09:47:46 AM
Not to mention actually swapping the 81 and 481 numbers would confuse drivers more than the project will as-is. DelDOT realized the same when they briefly moved I-95 onto I-495, with the route through Wilmington becoming I-895, not 495. The later cancelled proposal similarly would have seen Business I-95 on the downtown route, not 495.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on November 22, 2019, 01:36:32 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 22, 2019, 08:01:20 AM
Quote from: sparker on November 22, 2019, 01:23:05 AM
Since the existing freeway portion of present I-81 north of I-690 will remain intact, are there any rumblings regarding reassigning the I-481 number to that segment -- since it will undoubtedly remain on the FHWA logbooks as chargeable mileage?   It would seem quite logical to do that as a continuation (albeit less direct) of NY 481.
No.  It will become BL I-81, per most recent presentations.
Unfortunately.  As far as I'm concerned, business interstate aren't REAL interstates, and I'd prefer to see them go away - the last thing we need is to add another.  Plus they're functionally deleting even the freeway portions of the current route from the interstate system with the current plan.  I wonder if it has anything to do with the removal of the ramps connecting the north and west.  FHWA doesn't like partial interchanges, but they might find it more palatable if it isn't the terminus of an interstate.

Navigating the Syracuse area with the interstate system serving as the backbone (with lesser routes used only for "last mile" connections - minus the Thruway of course, because you have to enter the ticket system through double trumpet interchanges) was never something the metro was great at in the first place, but once the I-81 viaduct is removed and I-81 rerouted it will be effectively impossible.

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sturmde on November 22, 2019, 02:30:01 PM
I know the current plan is to sign a BL-81.  I know that those are now becoming frowned upon as confusing to the average driver of the least common denominator.  As we are seeing with North Carolina, ditching Green 40 in W-S for US 421 and Green 85 for US 29... was there any consideration to signing these with spur routes, as the southern section still is to interstate standards and could serve as an I-181 to the point it becomes a surface boulevard which could be BUS SPUR 181?  (Maybe Tennessee has some spare I-181 signs they'd send to NY for cheap. ;) )
.
The northern component since it would remain intact (I presume) from I-690 to the current I-81/I-481/NY 481 interchange... wouldn't that make sense as I-281?
.
I'd think a 181 stub and a 281 connector would be a lot more "in the spirit of the rules" and maintain all but the surface boulevard as part of the system.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on November 22, 2019, 09:51:13 PM
I-681 would make more sense than I-281 for the existing route - NY 281 not only exists, but it's less than 20 miles away.

Not sure if the remaining freeway at the south end would be significant enough to have an I-181 number.  A NYS reference route designation would seem more likely.  The freeway/expressway/parkway removals in Rochester and Buffalo didn't result in any new touring routes or even reference routes - the state route was simply truncated and the surface road given to the municipality.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on November 22, 2019, 10:55:44 PM
Quote from: Michael on October 24, 2019, 09:41:09 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 22, 2019, 09:53:45 PM
The "community grid" costs 91% of what the viaduct replacement project would cost.
Results in a huge reduction in capacity and severing of vital access links as opposed to a moderate increase in capacity and safety.
I agree that one of the biggest reasons that the grid is being pushed is cost.  It has always seemed silly to me since it isn't much cheaper than a replacement, but seeing the 91% really makes it stand out more to me!
Sad.  Very sad.

Has there been any actual final official decision on what alternative will be selected?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on November 23, 2019, 12:36:26 AM
As far as I know, NYSDOT is going around giving public presentations that the grid is the chosen alternative.  It certainly looks like the decision as been made.

One "pro" that NYSDOT puts forward is the fact that ROW takings are going to be far less with the grid than with replacing the viaduct.  Another is that new ramps off of I-690 will be built that supposedly will help traffic get to Syracuse University (I am not so certain).  I believe they'll be at Crouse and maybe University.

Time will tell.

(personal opinion expressed)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on November 23, 2019, 12:42:05 PM
With the reconfigurations of I-690 as part of this project, I'm wondering if I-690/NY 690 will also get its interchanges renumbered according to the mileposts that were installed a few years ago. It'd be I-690's third set of interchange numbers.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on November 23, 2019, 09:35:38 PM
It would be nice (in fact, this would be a good opportunity for Region 3 to convert everything to mile-based, as there isn't a single freeway with exit numbers in the entire region save for the Thruway that is unaffected by this), but I-690 can just as easily adjust its exit changes by staying sequential.  The new interchange at Crouse and Irving is a replacement for existing exit 13, and with the changes to exit 11, exit 12 is freed up for BL I-81.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on December 14, 2019, 09:52:57 PM
On the day after Thanksgiving, I drove I-481 from the northern terminus to NY 5/92.  I had never driven between the northern terminus and NY 298 before, and the last time I had been on that section of I-481 was in 2012.  As I was driving, I thought that it seemed narrow between the northern terminus and NY 298.  The large 90 degree curve between Northern Blvd and NY 298 wasn't as sharp as I was expecting as first, but it got sharper than I would have liked in the second half.  I think I slowed down to 55 or 60 in that part of the curve.

While I was driving through the I-690 interchange, I took a quick look to the side to look at one of the ghost ramps.  When I looked straight ahead again, I was closer to the right white line than I liked, and was surprised at how sharp the curve was within the interchange.  I've taken the ramp to I-690 at the interchange before too, and I don't like how sudden the ramp comes up and the departure angle of the ramp.  While I was on the bridge over the rail yard, I had to slow down a bit because a few cars ahead of me were slowing down, and it looked like one or two cars in the front of the pack were slowing down for the I-690 ramp.  If I-481 was to become I-81, I'd be concerned with the issues I saw during my drive.

On a side note, I'd never seen the congestion mentioned in the thread on I-481 until fairly recently.  The past few times I've been on I-481, traffic has slowed down to 55 a bit after merging southbound from I-690 until the NY 5/92 ramps.  A couple months ago, traffic even slowed down to 45 in the right lane a bit before the first ramp because of weaving in the cloverleaf.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 14, 2019, 10:46:55 PM
Quote from: RothmanOne "pro" that NYSDOT puts forward is the fact that ROW takings are going to be far less with the grid than with replacing the viaduct.  Another is that new ramps off of I-690 will be built that supposedly will help traffic get to Syracuse University (I am not so certain).  I believe they'll be at Crouse and maybe University.

Time will tell.

I think they're going to be sorry once they demolish the segment of I-81 between I-481 & I-690. One factor is the giant Destiny USA mall just north of the complex I-81/I-690 junction. Destiny USA is currently the 4th largest shopping mall in the United States. It's a major draw of traffic across the region. Can we expect shoppers heading up I-81 toward Syracuse to take the loop around the East side and I-690 back West again? I think a whole lot of that traffic will just keep going North and create a whole lotta gridlock in the downtown area. It should be lots and lots of fun for all the college people who were expecting a "walkable" downtown experience. The end result might really really suck.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on December 14, 2019, 11:14:12 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 14, 2019, 10:46:55 PM
Quote from: RothmanOne "pro" that NYSDOT puts forward is the fact that ROW takings are going to be far less with the grid than with replacing the viaduct.  Another is that new ramps off of I-690 will be built that supposedly will help traffic get to Syracuse University (I am not so certain).  I believe they'll be at Crouse and maybe University.

Time will tell.

I think they're going to be sorry once they demolish the segment of I-81 between I-481 & I-690. One factor is the giant Destiny USA mall just north of the complex I-81/I-690 junction. Destiny USA is currently the 4th largest shopping mall in the United States. It's a major draw of traffic across the region. Can we expect shoppers heading up I-81 toward Syracuse to take the loop around the East side and I-690 back West again? I think a whole lot of that traffic will just keep going North and create a whole lotta gridlock in the downtown area. It should be lots and lots of fun for all the college people who were expecting a "walkable" downtown experience. The end result might really really suck.
And there is not a whole lot of traffic coming from the south. Cortland, Binghamton, Elmira are not really places with lots of free cash. Ithaca and Cornell can be a player, but still only that big.... Ottawa canbe bigger than all of those, but it is in the other direction
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on December 15, 2019, 12:09:53 AM
Something Bobby's probably not aware of but to keep in mind:  the Onondaga nation sits just south of the city, including much of the land along I-81 between 481 and Lafayette.  This has limited residential growth to the south as kalvado pointed out.  Sure, Carousel Center (the original name for "Destiny USA" and to which I will always call the place, Robert Congel and his grandiose ideas be damned) is a regional draw....but most of that draw is from an east-west direction.  Removing 81 south of 690 will have very little impact on that draw.

From what I recall (when my wife lived there in the mid-2000s), most of the growth in the area was to the northwest of Syracuse, the town of Clay in particular.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on December 15, 2019, 11:00:12 AM
Insofar as I know, I-81 is not being demolished the total length between I-481 and I-690.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on December 15, 2019, 07:15:45 PM
How will access to Syracuse Univ. be affected by the viaduct removal?  Per Google Sat, the viaduct begins three blocks west of the Carrier Dome.

ixnay
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on December 15, 2019, 08:54:23 PM
The party line is that it won't be or some argue that it will be better.  Again, time will tell.

That said, SMTC and Syracuse PD (I believe) will be conducting a study of Carrier Dome access as the I-81 project unfolds.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Bobby5280 on December 15, 2019, 09:12:12 PM
I lived in Liverpool (NW Syracuse suburb) in the 1980-81 time frame (spent a year at Liverpool Middle School). The Carrier Dome was brand new back then; I think it's the last of those kinds of domed stadiums now. The traffic on I-81 was pretty busy back then. I worry about one of two possible scenarios with an I-81 removal. One: street level traffic could get really bad due to freeway traffic getting dumped down to grade level with a series of stop lights. Two: a whole lot of traffic could simply avoid the downtown area, sticking to the outer areas or just North of I-690 for shopping, entertainment, etc. There are spots near downtown and the University that are a bit rough. Who wants to be stuck at stop lights in the middle of that?

I guess if the I-81 downtown tear-down backfires and causes some stagnation of the downtown they could just double down on the strategy and pitch removing I-690 next!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on December 16, 2019, 01:41:44 PM
Back in the day there was a push to build the Carrier Dome out at the Fairgrounds because there was too much gridlock downtown and getting to and from the Dome would be a nightmare. And it is a nightmare. This discussion was in the mid 70s and traffic counts were probably lower than they are today!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: bemybear on January 06, 2020, 11:30:43 AM
So far, the history of sections of Urban freeways that have been removed has had a consistent pattern...

Fear and hand wringing for years leading up to it...

Something between a non-reaction and a total shock at how little it mattered after it's done.

See:
Central Freeway in San Francisco CA
Embarcadero Freeway in San Francisco CA
Harbor Freeway in Portland OR
Inner Loop in Rochester NY

Granted, San Francisco and Portland have substantial traffic and delays but it's not an easy argument to say that these missing roads are the cause of it or that any of them had any measurable impact on traffic whatsoever.

See also the recently created 14th street busway in NYC.

Just like decisions TO build things, I think the best path to 'unbuild' I-81 is to get it over with and focus on moving forward.  People underestimate how adaptable people are at finding ways to get around.  This is part of what makes induced demand so baffling.  How does that lovely new freeway come to be packed with people when it seemed to connect from nowhere to nowhere when it opened?  Why can't the opposite be true?  What will happen to those former I-81 AADT counts?   Some will go onto I-481, some will stay on surface streets, some use the new boulevard or whatever they are calling it and though it is hard to imagine or explain, I think history shows that some of those former trips just won't happen at all.... There is at least some precedent that suggests that the sun will still rise and people will still somehow conquer might Syracuse after I-81 as it is now known in the city ceases to exist!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 06, 2020, 11:41:47 AM
Quote from: bemybear on January 06, 2020, 11:30:43 AM
Central Freeway in San Francisco CA
Embarcadero Freeway in San Francisco CA
Harbor Freeway in Portland OR
Inner Loop in Rochester PA
They were stubs that were replaced and/or supplemented by other nearby freeways.

The freeway removal activists always like to trot these out when they suggest removing a vital urban Interstate highway that carries a high volume of traffic.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: bemybear on January 06, 2020, 12:16:22 PM
Beltway:
I lived in SF when the Central Freeway was truncated and believe me, if you listened to the radio or TV news you were basically told that traffic Armageddon was coming.  And from the AADT is seemed like a very 'vital' freeway.   And Armageddon most certainly didn't come.

Do you have suggestions for situations when a multi-year planned transition of a road from limited access to boulevard was a mobility disaster?  While not common, I'm sure there have been some substantial stretches of roadway that have either had a lane removed or gone from limited access to surface street etc.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 06, 2020, 01:18:00 PM
Quote from: bemybear on January 06, 2020, 12:16:22 PM
Beltway:
I lived in SF when the Central Freeway was truncated and believe me, if you listened to the radio or TV news you were basically told that traffic Armageddon was coming.  And from the AADT is seemed like a very 'vital' freeway.   And Armageddon most certainly didn't come.
It was a 1.0 mile stub, i.e. one end connected to surface streets.

Like the Embarcadero, it was a stub and it was heavily damaged in the 1989 earthquake.

Quote from: bemybear on January 06, 2020, 12:16:22 PM
Do you have suggestions for situations when a multi-year planned transition of a road from limited access to boulevard was a mobility disaster?  While not common, I'm sure there have been some substantial stretches of roadway that have either had a lane removed or gone from limited access to surface street etc.
No, because there have been no examples of removing an urban freeway that was a complete route thru the area.

Say like I-95 thru Philadelphia, as in what I mean by "a complete route thru the area."
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 06, 2020, 01:59:20 PM
It's worth noting that, this being a through route, how it affects the whole system is something that should really be considered.  The removal would work fine for traffic going to downtown and for north-south through traffic, but what about other traffic?  I did a drive time comparison for traffic between I-81 south of exit 16A (southern I-481 junction) and the Thruway west of exit 39 (I-690), using the existing route (I-81->I-690), and two alternates (I-481->I-690 and I-481->I-90), and if I remember right, the alternates doubled the length of time the trip would take.  This would affect anyone heading from Rochester or Buffalo to places like Cortland, as well as anyone headed to/from Binghamton or PA to the State Fair or the Finger Lakes (and the western suburbs of Syracuse).

Even if you're not as much of a stickler for staying on the freeway/interstate system as I am, it's worth noting that there's no interchange between BL I-81 and I-690 other than the two ramps preserving the existing movements to the freeway to the north of downtown, so you'd have to find some other way though the city.

Maybe I've been spoiled by spending most of my life in the Rochester area and the Capital District, both of which have fairly comprehensive local freeway systems (assuming Assemblywoman Patricia Fahy doesn't get her way on the removal of I-787), but the fact that Syracuse doesn't (due to missing connections on the northwest side as well as the missing movements in the I-81/I-690 interchange) is an annoyance for me, and one reason why I'd be less likely to consider living in the area.  The removal of I-81 doesn't help matters - without it, you go from being unable to make some trips by staying on the freeway to being unable to make most trips by staying on the freeway (only the eastern suburbs and downtown would be unaffected).

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on January 06, 2020, 02:16:27 PM
Uh, yeah, removing the Inner Loop is not even remotely comparable to removing part of I-81. The Inner Loop was a ghost highway pretty much 24/7. It didn't serve an important local OR regional/statewide purpose.

With I-81, on the other hand, imagine killing an inner section of I-490, except worse, because Syracuse has MUCH more through traffic than Rochester, and (as noted by vdeane) the Syracuse freeway system is already sub-par compared to Buffalo, Rochester, and Albany. We should be trying to make their medium-range connectivity for commuters and travelers better, not worse.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 07, 2020, 05:11:09 AM
Quote from: bemybear on January 06, 2020, 11:30:43 AM
So far, the history of sections of Urban freeways that have been removed has had a consistent pattern...
If it's such a consistent pattern, how many mainline 2di long-distance interstates have been removed and not replaced?

All of your examples are spur, local highways.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: bemybear on January 07, 2020, 08:02:48 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 07, 2020, 05:11:09 AM
Quote from: bemybear on January 06, 2020, 11:30:43 AM
So far, the history of sections of Urban freeways that have been removed has had a consistent pattern...
If it's such a consistent pattern, how many mainline 2di long-distance interstates have been removed and not replaced?

All of your examples are spur, local highways.

I feel really conflicted with this issue.  I'm really NOT somebody who would like to remove or downgrade a bunch of roads in some reverse Robert Moses way.   But I am of the belief that the impacts of this will be minimal.

Oddly, almost none of us who are so interested in this seem to actually work or live in Syracuse, a city I usually avoid because it has little redeeming virtue in my eyes, regardless of the roads.  but what if we look at this from the perspective of various stakeholders and road users:

Through travelers (non road geeks mostly): The I-81 designation will be moved to what is now I-481.  Truckers, people passing through (or more likely, around) Syracuse will follow signs for I-81 and be on I-481.  It's a better road with easier expansion options, it doesn't have a nasty right exit left merge for people headed to the Thruway/Fairgrounds.  It doesn't have a 40 or 45 MPH speed limit or whatever that slow part of I-81 has.  It has shoulders.  It isn't a rusting narrow overpass.  It might add a few miles but the average speed should be slightly higher.  It's probably a net loss to those users of a few minutes.  I-481 will be busier and probably need expansion sooner but this project already includes some expansion of it.

Locals/the local Illuminati who are pushing this plan: They were using the freeway for the shortest trips, many of them probably for less than 5 miles. They will quickly try and either accept or reject the boulevard as an alternative and they already know how to get around without I-81 anyway. The travel time penalty will be modest for them.  They are also supposedly the ones who want I-81 removed.

Those two groups really aren't coming out that badly.  The hardest hit will probably be those who commute into Syracuse from relatively far away areas that I-481 is exactly in the wrong place for.  Those users will make repeated trips to the same destination and will repeatedly suffer whatever the time and/or safety penalty is.  But the hand wringing about this loss seems to assume that I-81 is being obliterated and replaced with a sidewalk.  I don't think that is the case.  It's being replaced with a road (yes with lights, yes not a 55 MPH road) that will be wide, have reasonable curves, hopefully timed lights etc.  It isn't as though average speeds will go from 50 MPH to 10 MPH.  It's probably more like from 50 MPH to 25 MPH.  And, very importantly, the VAST majority of people who are going to something that is somewhere on the current I-81 section in Syracuse will NOT BE DRIVING THE ENTIRE LENGTH of the reduced road (otherwise they'd just use the bypass).  So maybe on average those commuting/student/shopping/whatever users will have 5 miles of their journey that used to be I-81 now be on a slower road.  5 miles at 25 MPH = 12 minutes.  5 miles at 50 MPH = 6.  Those users on average might loose about 6 minutes.  And it is this effect that HAS been simulated by removing or downgrading these other urban roadways.  If you cherry pick and count only the part of the journey that was on the removed road you might be able to say it doubled their travel time but unless your house is on an existing I-81 on-ramp and whatever you were going to was at the end of an off-ramp, the truth is that slowing down part of a journey for a relatively modest part of the total population just isn't going to be a disaster.

It would be interesting to have a visualization of what I-81 traffic in Syracuse would look like if it was just people who actually had a destination that was on the part of the roadway in question.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on January 07, 2020, 08:21:52 AM
The rerouted I-81 will appear on a map similar to I-83's dodge of York, PA, only at a radius from downtown that's a few miles longer (York is quite smaller than Syracuse).

Are there plans to reconfigure the (current) I-81/I-481/NY 481 interchange?  Per Google Sat that's currently a cloverleaf.  Rerouting I-81 IMO will require flyovers eventually.

ixnay
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on January 07, 2020, 01:29:27 PM
QuoteAre there plans to reconfigure the (current) I-81/I-481/NY 481 interchange?  Per Google Sat that's currently a cloverleaf.  Rerouting I-81 IMO will require flyovers eventually.

Not flyovers per se, but yes the alternative that moves 81 onto 481 builds direct connectors at the northern 81/481 interchange.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 07, 2020, 01:31:09 PM
Yes, both I-481 interchanges would be reconfigured.  I had to do some digging to find an article with images of them: https://expo.syracuse.com/news/g66l-2019/04/8c50a10c522772/how-would-community-grid-work-check-out-maps-from-interstate-81-report.html

While doing said digging, I also found my analysis of traffic moving between the south and west:

Quote
I just did some Google directions from LaFayette (I-81 exit 15) to Weedsport (I-90 exit 40) to compare times.  I-81/I-690/I-90 and I-81/I-90 are both 39 minutes, while I-81/I-481/I-90 and I-81/I-481/I-690/I-90 are 46 (the last one is also the only one to require more than one shaping point).  Of course, in addition to time, there's also the principle of replacing what used to be 3 miles with 12 miles, and the fact that there will no longer be a good all-freeway route for trips from the western suburbs to/from points south or points south to/from the Fair or the northern Finger Lakes (I'm also the person who selects apartments based on how many trips in the metro area can be made with the freeway system (excluding the Thruway, which in my mind is mainly for long-distance travel, going to Canandaigua Lake, or Schenectady) as a backbone).

I don't disagree that north-south through traffic would be minimally impacted.  That's why I didn't even bother to do an analysis of it at the time.  It's only two minutes and three miles longer over a 12 mile corridor.  What I don't get is why everyone is ignoring the movements between the south and west that will be hosed by this proposal.

Honestly, I'd have a lot fewer objections to removing I-81 if the southwest bypass had been built.  That would solve those concerns.  Unfortunately, it's no longer possible to build.

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on January 07, 2020, 01:34:12 PM
Quote from: vdeaneWhat I don't get is why everyone is ignoring the movements between the south and west that will be hosed by this proposal.

Because the studies found even fewer folks making those movements than are making the through north-south movement.

While I agree that some sort of southwest bypass would be useful as an alternative, there aren't enough south-west movements to make the cost justifiable.  You and Josh are notable (and vocal) exceptions to the lack of people making movements in those directions.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 07, 2020, 01:43:08 PM
When did they study that?  Between all the PA plates I see when driving the Thruway west of Syracuse in the summer and the very noticeable change in traffic at exit 39, I'm guessing they didn't study it when everyone is heading out on vacation.

That's probably why Josh and I are the "notable exceptions" - we're the ones who drive I-90 between Albany and Rochester/Buffalo several times a year.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on January 07, 2020, 01:47:14 PM
It was part of the project/corridor studies.  Surprised you didn't pick up on that before.

The "noticeable change in traffic at Exit 39" can easily be explained by that being the primary entry into Syracuse from the west.

The Thruway is also close enough to the PA border to where it doesn't surprise me that there are a number of PA plates on it.  Not much different than the multitude of Mass plates I see all over here in northern Vermont.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on January 07, 2020, 01:54:20 PM
South-West is the signed truck route from west of Syracuse to Cortland and south, to the point where there are signs on the Thruway west of NY 14 telling trucks to use I-690 and I-81. That pair of ramps has not had a public class count, so I can't check how many trucks make that movement, but there's a pretty steady parade of trucks exiting the Thruway at 690 most times I'm through there.

For 81 NB - 481NB, the last class count (2008) showed 40% trucks. If the N-W class count is even remotely close, that's a lot of trucks you're moving.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 07, 2020, 02:30:55 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 07, 2020, 01:47:14 PM
It was part of the project/corridor studies.  Surprised you didn't pick up on that before.
I'm not Region 3 and it's not like I've read every single word of the EIS.  I skimmed through a few sections and the analysis appears to focus on the areas already widely reported (north-south through traffic and traffic to/from downtown), freight from the south to/from the airport, and consumers from the south to/from DestiNY USA.  Naturally, the analysis did not include my "all freeway/no Thruway" preferences (a result of my combination of obsession with the chargeable interstate system and logical additions and Aspergian inflexibility; I'm only getting more set in my ways as I get older).  I'm probably spoiled by living in the Capital District - ignoring Breezewood junctions and incomplete roads like I-86, aside from Vermont, I'm hard-pressed to think of anywhere in the US or Canada that would require me to go significantly out of my way to access via the interstate system (or equivalent) that isn't wholly disconnected from the system entirely (Providence is my best guess right now, but even that hinges on how "significantly out of my way" I-495 would be over MA/RI 146; the north shore of Lake Ontario (including Kingston) is also arguable, but one could also think of ON 137 as a giant Breezewood).  Losing that is one thing I wouldn't like about moving back to Rochester, and this doesn't help.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on January 07, 2020, 06:07:03 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 07, 2020, 01:34:12 PM
Quote from: vdeaneWhat I don't get is why everyone is ignoring the movements between the south and west that will be hosed by this proposal.
Because the studies found even fewer folks making those movements than are making the through north-south movement.

But if you have half the volume, and quadruple the impact, doesn't that mean it still deserves twice as much attention?

It's not like there's just a handful of people making that south-west connection.. it's in the thousands, and is important on both smaller (think Rochester-Cortland) and larger (think Buffalo-NYC) levels in terms of connectivity.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 08, 2020, 10:54:26 PM
Lots of photos --

Latest photos from the I-59/20 bridge construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/j66j-2020/01/da241df2b77982/latest-photos-from-the-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html?fbclid=IwAR1Ae5a0ax9nOrVQk8VI6z0EbY0NX6ZC55jY6Y0KJKJMOuDvAiFAEtBZNsg
. . . . . .

Syracuse needs to check this out!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 08, 2020, 11:11:36 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 08, 2020, 10:54:26 PM
Lots of photos --

Latest photos from the I-59/20 bridge construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/j66j-2020/01/da241df2b77982/latest-photos-from-the-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html?fbclid=IwAR1Ae5a0ax9nOrVQk8VI6z0EbY0NX6ZC55jY6Y0KJKJMOuDvAiFAEtBZNsg
. . . . . .

Syracuse needs to check this out!
Nah.  The viaduct is coming down.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 08, 2020, 11:23:50 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 08, 2020, 11:11:36 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 08, 2020, 10:54:26 PM
Lots of photos --
Latest photos from the I-59/20 bridge construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/j66j-2020/01/da241df2b77982/latest-photos-from-the-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html?fbclid=IwAR1Ae5a0ax9nOrVQk8VI6z0EbY0NX6ZC55jY6Y0KJKJMOuDvAiFAEtBZNsg
. . . . . .
Syracuse needs to check this out!
Nah.  The viaduct is coming down.

So they choose defeat instead of victory, failure instead of success?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 08, 2020, 11:34:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 08, 2020, 11:11:36 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 08, 2020, 10:54:26 PM
Lots of photos --

Latest photos from the I-59/20 bridge construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/j66j-2020/01/da241df2b77982/latest-photos-from-the-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html?fbclid=IwAR1Ae5a0ax9nOrVQk8VI6z0EbY0NX6ZC55jY6Y0KJKJMOuDvAiFAEtBZNsg
. . . . . .

Syracuse needs to check this out!
Nah.  The viaduct is coming down.
Incredibly foolish and shortsighted.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 09, 2020, 05:40:01 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 08, 2020, 10:54:26 PM
Lots of photos --

Latest photos from the I-59/20 bridge construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/j66j-2020/01/da241df2b77982/latest-photos-from-the-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html?fbclid=IwAR1Ae5a0ax9nOrVQk8VI6z0EbY0NX6ZC55jY6Y0KJKJMOuDvAiFAEtBZNsg
. . . . . .

Syracuse needs to check this out!
Good to see that project coming nicely along. Syracuse will feel the pain of their decision after they already pulled the trigger, I-481 will become a bottleneck, and once you have to pour expense into expanding that road, you're now spending more money on this RE/T project than an actual network improvement.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 09, 2020, 06:36:29 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 09, 2020, 05:40:01 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 08, 2020, 10:54:26 PM
Lots of photos --

Latest photos from the I-59/20 bridge construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/j66j-2020/01/da241df2b77982/latest-photos-from-the-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html?fbclid=IwAR1Ae5a0ax9nOrVQk8VI6z0EbY0NX6ZC55jY6Y0KJKJMOuDvAiFAEtBZNsg
. . . . . .

Syracuse needs to check this out!
Good to see that project coming nicely along. Syracuse will feel the pain of their decision after they already pulled the trigger, I-481 will become a bottleneck, and once you have to pour expense into expanding that road, you're now spending more money on this RE/T project than an actual network improvement.
Improvements to I-481 are included in the I-81 project.

Concerns like vdeane's are more valid.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 09, 2020, 12:57:26 PM
It's worth noting that there are already signs directing I-81 north-south through traffic to take I-481, though I'm guessing not everyone actually does.  Thinking about how traffic flows in Syracuse, it might just be a Syracuse thing to drive 60-65 even on the suburban freeways posted at 65 (I didn't notice anyone other than myself slowing down the last time I was on I-81 where it dropped to 55 at exit 23).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 09, 2020, 03:35:28 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 09, 2020, 06:36:29 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 09, 2020, 05:40:01 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 08, 2020, 10:54:26 PM
Lots of photos --

Latest photos from the I-59/20 bridge construction in Birmingham
https://www.al.com/news/j66j-2020/01/da241df2b77982/latest-photos-from-the-i5920-bridge-construction-in-birmingham.html?fbclid=IwAR1Ae5a0ax9nOrVQk8VI6z0EbY0NX6ZC55jY6Y0KJKJMOuDvAiFAEtBZNsg
. . . . . .

Syracuse needs to check this out!
Good to see that project coming nicely along. Syracuse will feel the pain of their decision after they already pulled the trigger, I-481 will become a bottleneck, and once you have to pour expense into expanding that road, you're now spending more money on this RE/T project than an actual network improvement.
Improvements to I-481 are included in the I-81 project.

Concerns like vdeane's are more valid.

(personal opinion emphasized)
I-481 is being widened to 6-lanes?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 09, 2020, 08:16:30 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 09, 2020, 03:35:28 PM
I-481 is being widened to 6-lanes?
Both directions between exits 4 and 5 and NB between exits 5 and 6.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 16, 2020, 06:02:31 PM
Alabama and Birmingham show us how to do it.



The Alabama Department of Transportation is preparing to open the new Interstate 59/20 bridges across the Magic City -- a $700 million project that is finishing early -- by Jan. 21.

The project, funded by ALDOT, the Federal Highway Administration and the Birmingham Metropolitan Planning Organization, started in 2015.

Traffic was diverted to Interstate 459 and surface roads all around one year ago.

"We are very excited that we are getting to a point where we can put traffic back on 59/20 through downtown Birmingham,"  said ALDOT East Central Regional Engineer DeJarvis Leonard.

(https://www.al.com/resizer/sL4Yv1fiykIfJEKL7ScecN2IzRg=/700x0/smart/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-advancelocal.s3.amazonaws.com/public/2GQ5N4ZAIZGNRMZ3GEJEMFMCSM.jpg)

Article and photos here --
https://www.al.com/news/2020/01/alabama-your-700-million-i-5920-bridge-through-birmingham-is-ready.html
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 16, 2020, 06:12:54 PM
They can build that wide freeway for 700 million yet NYSDOT estimates billions to rebuild a 4 lane highway?

I still think they should build the tunnel. At this point if they don't even to consider rebuilding the viaduct it is hard to throw support behind a tunnel. It sucks it has to be this way. I have a small glimmer of hope they change course and rebuild the highway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 16, 2020, 07:24:15 PM
A major improvement over the previous 6-lane bridge with minimal shoulders on either side, plus left exits / entrances to local streets. No tolls or HO/T lanes included in the project either, another nice plus. This, along with the fact that I-59 and I-20 traffic additionally have I-459 as an outer bypass of the city.

It's a shame New York is going forth with the current project.

Next time I head southwest, I'll be sure to route through Birmingham to see the new roadway, presumably within the next 6 months. I've actually been through there my last few trips, though have utilized I-459 every time since a) the interstate was closed through Downtown and b) it avoids the city entirely.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 16, 2020, 07:35:06 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 16, 2020, 06:12:54 PM
I still think they should build the tunnel. At this point if they don't even to consider rebuilding the viaduct it is hard to throw support behind a tunnel. It sucks it has to be this way. I have a small glimmer of hope they change course and rebuild the highway.
Tunnel = expensive = tolls.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 16, 2020, 09:22:11 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 16, 2020, 07:35:06 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 16, 2020, 06:12:54 PM
I still think they should build the tunnel. At this point if they don't even to consider rebuilding the viaduct it is hard to throw support behind a tunnel. It sucks it has to be this way. I have a small glimmer of hope they change course and rebuild the highway.
Tunnel = expensive = tolls.
Right.  Just replace the viaduct with a modern viaduct.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 16, 2020, 09:23:49 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 16, 2020, 09:22:11 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 16, 2020, 07:35:06 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 16, 2020, 06:12:54 PM
I still think they should build the tunnel. At this point if they don't even to consider rebuilding the viaduct it is hard to throw support behind a tunnel. It sucks it has to be this way. I have a small glimmer of hope they change course and rebuild the highway.
Tunnel = expensive = tolls.
Right.  Just replace the viaduct with a modern viaduct.
Yes. Alabama did it right.

In the case of New York, $2 billion will be spent regardless of which option chosen, so if they were smart, they'd put it towards the most beneficial option in the long term.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 16, 2020, 09:54:12 PM
I wonder if there were any ROW takings in the Alabama project.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 17, 2020, 01:27:35 AM
Quote from: Rothman on January 16, 2020, 09:54:12 PM
I wonder if there were any ROW takings in the Alabama project.
Does the viaduct rebuild option require taking new ROW?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: amroad17 on January 17, 2020, 08:16:21 AM
Observation about the Birmingham project: Could ALDOT have built the bridge closer to the parking garage there on the left?  :-P

If something similar to this could be done in Syracuse, I would be all for it.  However, I believe there is a more limited right-of-way around the viaduct, plus there is the I-81/I-690 interchange to contend with.  This is what happens when Interstate highways were "jammed" (or "rammed") through a downtown area in the 1960's.  NYSDOT snaked I-81 north of I-690 around buildings and basically bulldozed a "slum" neighborhood south of I-690 to build the viaduct--not even thinking about what will need to happen when the viaduct's useful life would end.  No foresight whatsoever.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 09:30:01 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 17, 2020, 01:27:35 AM
Quote from: Rothman on January 16, 2020, 09:54:12 PM
I wonder if there were any ROW takings in the Alabama project.
Does the viaduct rebuild option require taking new ROW?
Yes, and demolition of a couple of buildings - some old and historic -  as well.
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2016/10/here_are_the_four_buildings_doomed_under_any_i-81_plan_and_20_more_doo.html
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 17, 2020, 01:00:35 PM
Heck, even the community grid and tunnel options require ROW.  There is literally no option here that doesn't.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 01:27:54 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 17, 2020, 01:00:35 PM
Heck, even the community grid and tunnel options require ROW.  There is literally no option here that doesn't.
Why, letting old structure rot out and collapse doesn't require anything. And we know that has a fat chance to actually happen...  Is there any funding allocated for I-81 yet? May be interesting with latest budget news
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 17, 2020, 01:48:31 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 01:27:54 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 17, 2020, 01:00:35 PM
Heck, even the community grid and tunnel options require ROW.  There is literally no option here that doesn't.
Why, letting old structure rot out and collapse doesn't require anything. And we know that has a fat chance to actually happen...  Is there any funding allocated for I-81 yet? May be interesting with latest budget news
If that actually happened there'd probably at least be a temporary easement involved to get the demolition done.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 17, 2020, 02:00:08 PM
The ROW takings with the viaduct replacement were of a much greater number and cost than with the community grid.  It was one of the factors in the decision to go with the grid, insofar as I am aware.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 17, 2020, 03:48:58 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 17, 2020, 02:00:08 PM
The ROW takings with the viaduct replacement were of a much greater number and cost than with the community grid.  It was one of the factors in the decision to go with the grid, insofar as I am aware.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Cost vs. benefit.

The viaduct option may have greater impacts and cost, though will have far greater benefits in the long term than a community grid would. The Alabama project involved higher cost and impacts than rehabilitating the existing viaduct, though they chose that option due to the greater benefits in the long term.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 04:18:55 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 17, 2020, 03:48:58 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 17, 2020, 02:00:08 PM
The ROW takings with the viaduct replacement were of a much greater number and cost than with the community grid.  It was one of the factors in the decision to go with the grid, insofar as I am aware.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Cost vs. benefit.

The viaduct option may have greater impacts and cost, though will have far greater benefits in the long term than a community grid would. The Alabama project involved higher cost and impacts than rehabilitating the existing viaduct, though they chose that option due to the greater benefits in the long term.
NY state has a negative population growth rate, more so for upstate; and seems to be  planning for future negative population growth as well.
Given project cost, abandoning city of Syracuse is likely a preferred option cost-wise.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 17, 2020, 04:44:51 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 04:18:55 PM
NY state has a negative population growth rate, more so for upstate; and seems to be  planning for future negative population growth as well.
Given project cost, abandoning city of Syracuse is likely a preferred option cost-wise.

Repeated acts of urban hari-kari like with this I-81 matter, are the reason for the negative population growth rate, not the other way around; it is not like a negative population growth rate is causing the acts of hara-kiri.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 17, 2020, 04:49:05 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 04:18:55 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 17, 2020, 03:48:58 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 17, 2020, 02:00:08 PM
The ROW takings with the viaduct replacement were of a much greater number and cost than with the community grid.  It was one of the factors in the decision to go with the grid, insofar as I am aware.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Cost vs. benefit.

The viaduct option may have greater impacts and cost, though will have far greater benefits in the long term than a community grid would. The Alabama project involved higher cost and impacts than rehabilitating the existing viaduct, though they chose that option due to the greater benefits in the long term.
NY state has a negative population growth rate, more so for upstate; and seems to be  planning for future negative population growth as well.
Given project cost, abandoning city of Syracuse is likely a preferred option cost-wise.
So give up and all but ensure with a lack of infrastructure the state will continue to shrink? Going from a freeway to a boulevard is downgrade in every sense.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 17, 2020, 04:56:02 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 04:18:55 PM
Given project cost, abandoning city of Syracuse is likely a preferred option cost-wise.
$1.9 billion for a community grid. Seems like a lot of money poured into the city to appease locals and RE/T groups, and choke I-481 which will eventually require a 6-lane widening that could easily cost more than the $300 million difference. Not to mention that I-81 North to I-690 West movement will have to travel local roads or go even further out of the way.

Compare that to $2.2 billion for a viaduct replacement which would have far greater benefits in the long-term for both local and long-distance traffic, something that type of money is better used for.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 05:12:51 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 17, 2020, 04:56:02 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 04:18:55 PM
Given project cost, abandoning city of Syracuse is likely a preferred option cost-wise.
$1.9 billion for a community grid. Seems like a lot of money poured into the city to appease locals and RE/T groups, and choke I-481 which will eventually require a 6-lane widening that could easily cost more than the $300 million difference. Not to mention that I-81 North to I-690 West movement will have to travel local roads or go even further out of the way.

Compare that to $2.2 billion for a viaduct replacement which would have far greater benefits in the long-term for both local and long-distance traffic, something that type of money is better used for.
Mr. Moses, this is 2020, not 1960. Demolishing city for better traffic - especially if there is no traffic to begin with - is hard to sell, for better or worse.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 17, 2020, 05:21:50 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 05:12:51 PM
especially if there is no traffic to begin with
:-D :-D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 05:25:50 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 17, 2020, 04:44:51 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 04:18:55 PM
NY state has a negative population growth rate, more so for upstate; and seems to be  planning for future negative population growth as well.
Given project cost, abandoning city of Syracuse is likely a preferred option cost-wise.

Repeated acts of urban hari-kari like with this I-81 matter, are the reason for the negative population growth rate, not the other way around; it is not like a negative population growth rate is causing the acts of hara-kiri.
We can talk quite a bit about it; but probably uncontrolled spending and overtaxation is a bigger problem. Spending big time on fancy projects is going to make problem worse, not better.
And I am sort of agreeing with you, see this post: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=18020.msg2393056#msg2393056
I just don't think this highway really matters that much - shape of bandaid sticker doesn't matter, bullet went all the way through.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 17, 2020, 05:41:39 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 05:25:50 PM
I just don't think this highway really matters that much - shape of bandaid sticker doesn't matter, bullet went all the way through.
After it, it's just a local 1960 era freeway that is well underutilized and is merely a spur off of a major interstate highway and will not have much impact on traffic removing it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 17, 2020, 05:58:11 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 05:12:51 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 17, 2020, 04:56:02 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 04:18:55 PM
Given project cost, abandoning city of Syracuse is likely a preferred option cost-wise.
$1.9 billion for a community grid. Seems like a lot of money poured into the city to appease locals and RE/T groups, and choke I-481 which will eventually require a 6-lane widening that could easily cost more than the $300 million difference. Not to mention that I-81 North to I-690 West movement will have to travel local roads or go even further out of the way.

Compare that to $2.2 billion for a viaduct replacement which would have far greater benefits in the long-term for both local and long-distance traffic, something that type of money is better used for.
Mr. Moses, this is 2020, not 1960. Demolishing city for better traffic - especially if there is no traffic to begin with - is hard to sell, for better or worse.
Yet nearly every city in the world is still investing in freeways. With your logic of freeway building being a relic of the 60s than trains are even worse being a relic of the 1800s.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 06:17:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 17, 2020, 05:58:11 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 05:12:51 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 17, 2020, 04:56:02 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 04:18:55 PM
Given project cost, abandoning city of Syracuse is likely a preferred option cost-wise.
$1.9 billion for a community grid. Seems like a lot of money poured into the city to appease locals and RE/T groups, and choke I-481 which will eventually require a 6-lane widening that could easily cost more than the $300 million difference. Not to mention that I-81 North to I-690 West movement will have to travel local roads or go even further out of the way.

Compare that to $2.2 billion for a viaduct replacement which would have far greater benefits in the long-term for both local and long-distance traffic, something that type of money is better used for.
Mr. Moses, this is 2020, not 1960. Demolishing city for better traffic - especially if there is no traffic to begin with - is hard to sell, for better or worse.
Yet nearly every city in the world is still investing in freeways. With your logic of freeway building being a relic of the 60s than trains are even worse being a relic of the 1800s.
Nearly every city which can afford it. This is said reality in NYS: we can barely afford maintaining relics of 60s, major construction is beyond reach. And we have $6B budget gap projected for next year.
This discussion goes way beyond I-81, though.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 17, 2020, 06:21:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 06:17:08 PM
Nearly every city which can afford it.
Yet NYSDOT has no problem spending $1.9 billion to appease RE/T groups and locals?

You continue to act like the community grid option costs $50 million and the I-81 viaduct replacement costs $2.2 billion.

Both options cost around the same, and one provides greater benefits in the long-term for local, regional, and long-distance traffic. The other appeases locals and chokes regional and long-distance traffic, though because it costs 9% less and appeases locals, it's preferred. The current preferred option is an irresponsible spending of limited funding, and will only hurt Syracuse further routing traffic away from the city.

Alabama is doing it right.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 17, 2020, 06:31:18 PM
I am just bewildered that it will cost 3-4x more to build a smaller freeway than what Alabama built theirs, a wider one, for. The projects seem comparable even though Syracuse's looks a bit longer.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 17, 2020, 06:37:56 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 17, 2020, 06:31:18 PM
I am just bewildered that it will cost 3-4x more to build a smaller freeway than what Alabama built theirs, a wider one, for. The projects seem comparable even though Syracuse's looks a bit longer.
Different states, different costs.

A local example, it costs Virginia $50 - $100 million per mile to construct a rural freeway, but right over the border in North Carolina it only costs $25 - $30 million per mile to construct that same rural freeway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 17, 2020, 06:58:11 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 17, 2020, 06:37:56 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 17, 2020, 06:31:18 PM
I am just bewildered that it will cost 3-4x more to build a smaller freeway than what Alabama built theirs, a wider one, for. The projects seem comparable even though Syracuse's looks a bit longer.
Different states, different costs.

A local example, it costs Virginia $50 - $100 million per mile to construct a rural freeway, but right over the border in North Carolina it only costs $25 - $30 million per mile to construct that same rural freeway.
It seems to me there are ways to get these costs down. While I understand that there are going to be cost discrepancies among various states, differing factors like geography and population density, two projects like the ones in Birmingham and Syracuse shouldn't have such a cost disparity. A hundred or so million dollars even makes me scratch my head but is understandable but not a billion and this will be even more than that. The renderings of a rebuilt viaduct seem to imply the new road would be built substandard as in its current form.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 07:13:20 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 17, 2020, 06:58:11 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 17, 2020, 06:37:56 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 17, 2020, 06:31:18 PM
I am just bewildered that it will cost 3-4x more to build a smaller freeway than what Alabama built theirs, a wider one, for. The projects seem comparable even though Syracuse's looks a bit longer.
Different states, different costs.

A local example, it costs Virginia $50 - $100 million per mile to construct a rural freeway, but right over the border in North Carolina it only costs $25 - $30 million per mile to construct that same rural freeway.
It seems to me there are ways to get these costs down. While I understand that there are going to be cost discrepancies among various states, differing factors like geography and population density, two projects like the ones in Birmingham and Syracuse shouldn't have such a cost disparity. A hundred or so million dollars even makes me scratch my head but is understandable but not a billion and this will be even more than that. The renderings of a rebuilt viaduct seem to imply the new road would be built substandard as in its current form.
Alabama is red, NY is blue. Enough said.
Did you ever hear what "prevailing wage" is? Hint: it means that many people on NY construction site will get $100/hour, working the task done by one minimum wage guy in Alabama

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 17, 2020, 06:21:09 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 06:17:08 PM
Nearly every city which can afford it.
Yet NYSDOT has no problem spending $1.9 billion to appease RE/T groups and locals?

You continue to act like the community grid option costs $50 million and the I-81 viaduct replacement costs $2.2 billion.

Both options cost around the same, and one provides greater benefits in the long-term for local, regional, and long-distance traffic. The other appeases locals and chokes regional and long-distance traffic, though because it costs 9% less and appeases locals, it's preferred. The current preferred option is an irresponsible spending of limited funding, and will only hurt Syracuse further routing traffic away from the city.

Alabama is doing it right.
No, I continue to believe dirt will not get moved within next 10 years. Or until old road collapses, and the president will commit to helping out.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on January 18, 2020, 01:16:57 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 05:12:51 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 17, 2020, 04:56:02 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 04:18:55 PM
Given project cost, abandoning city of Syracuse is likely a preferred option cost-wise.
$1.9 billion for a community grid. Seems like a lot of money poured into the city to appease locals and RE/T groups, and choke I-481 which will eventually require a 6-lane widening that could easily cost more than the $300 million difference. Not to mention that I-81 North to I-690 West movement will have to travel local roads or go even further out of the way.

Compare that to $2.2 billion for a viaduct replacement which would have far greater benefits in the long-term for both local and long-distance traffic, something that type of money is better used for.
Mr. Moses, this is 2020, not 1960. Demolishing city for better traffic - especially if there is no traffic to begin with - is hard to sell, for better or worse.
Demolishing city is likely at this rate. Already started in Rochester.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 18, 2020, 07:12:09 AM
Quote from: Alps on January 18, 2020, 01:16:57 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 05:12:51 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 17, 2020, 04:56:02 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 17, 2020, 04:18:55 PM
Given project cost, abandoning city of Syracuse is likely a preferred option cost-wise.
$1.9 billion for a community grid. Seems like a lot of money poured into the city to appease locals and RE/T groups, and choke I-481 which will eventually require a 6-lane widening that could easily cost more than the $300 million difference. Not to mention that I-81 North to I-690 West movement will have to travel local roads or go even further out of the way.

Compare that to $2.2 billion for a viaduct replacement which would have far greater benefits in the long-term for both local and long-distance traffic, something that type of money is better used for.
Mr. Moses, this is 2020, not 1960. Demolishing city for better traffic - especially if there is no traffic to begin with - is hard to sell, for better or worse.
Demolishing city is likely at this rate. Already started in Rochester.
And what is the best option here from your perspective - suffocating city by removing traffic access or slump clearance to build a new highway?
And no, you cannot have a cake and eat it too.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 18, 2020, 08:21:37 PM
Actually, since people are advocating rebuild as a long-term beneficial solution.. Let me ask a mirrored question:
someone should pay short-term for either alternative, and by "pay" i mean not money but bigger effects.
Can you justify why you think local residents are the ones who should be suffering? They do have highway going through the city, and they don't get too many benefits of that: depressed city, poor inner district. You're saying they will be even worse off without highway - which is far from a given; and they, collectively, will be worse off if the highway is expanded - because of demolitions if nothing else.
So, why should they pay the price?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on January 18, 2020, 08:34:14 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 18, 2020, 01:16:57 AM
Demolishing city is likely at this rate. Already started in Rochester.

Actually, I think downtown Rochester has very much improved since they filled that section of the loop.

The difference, obviously, is that there's no long distance traffic anywhere near our downtown. Even commuters didn't use the Inner Loop. Couldn't be more opposite to Syracuse in terms of the importance of the highway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 18, 2020, 08:37:39 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 18, 2020, 08:34:14 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 18, 2020, 01:16:57 AM
Demolishing city is likely at this rate. Already started in Rochester.

Actually, I think downtown Rochester has very much improved since they filled that section of the loop.

The difference, obviously, is that there's no long distance traffic anywhere near our downtown. Even commuters didn't use the Inner Loop. Couldn't be more opposite to Syracuse in terms of the importance of the highway.
Exactly, and this is when RE/T groups try to compare demolishing I-81 to other local highway demolitions and say it doesn't hurt traffic. They fail to realize (or publicly admit) that I-81 is a long-distance interstate highway corridor with a heavy traffic load, and the other examples are localized freeways that don't get heavy usage.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on January 18, 2020, 09:24:35 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 18, 2020, 08:34:14 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 18, 2020, 01:16:57 AM
Demolishing city is likely at this rate. Already started in Rochester.

Actually, I think downtown Rochester has very much improved since they filled that section of the loop.

More businesses coming downtown iow?  Improved nightlife?  A safer downtown?  Better community coherence?

ixnay
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on January 19, 2020, 12:36:12 PM
Quote from: ixnay on January 18, 2020, 09:24:35 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 18, 2020, 08:34:14 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 18, 2020, 01:16:57 AM
Demolishing city is likely at this rate. Already started in Rochester.

Actually, I think downtown Rochester has very much improved since they filled that section of the loop.

More businesses coming downtown iow?  Improved nightlife?  A safer downtown?  Better community coherence?

Not sure about safety (that has never really been an issue in the CBD), but definitely all of the above other than that.

It's amazing how much less of a ghost town it feels like with that empty highway filled, and it really provides a lot more continuity between booming areas like Park Avenue/ South Wedge and the CBD. (And at least we have some new vacant buildings now instead of just old ones!  :-D)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: bemybear on January 21, 2020, 10:51:02 AM
In reply to somebody who said people fail to understand or admit what a massive piece of infrastructure is being lost...

The amount of traffic on the boulevard is not going to be what I-81 currently carries or even 50% of it.  It will be almost all people who ACTUALLY want to be in Syracuse, not loads of cat litter and Amazon deliveries headed for the suburbs and umpteen people going from Virginia to someplace on the Thruway.

Also, the 'corridor' will be intact.  Normal non road geeks will blandly/blindly follow signage and be on the lovely modern and soon to be improved I-481.  They aren't creating a section of gravel road between Scranton and I-90.  They are shifting a bunch of trucks and disinterested through traffic to a newer piece of road and turning the old road which used to be the almost everybody road into hopefully a reasonably tolerable road that most non Syracuse people will never use and most people who do use it will on only be on for 2 or 3 miles.  How this modest change becomes the downfall of an entire region is really a head scratcher.

There are two math and logic errors being repeated so often here:
1.  The boulevard is going to be a disaster of no transportation benefit because it's not a giant freeway... Once you remove all the through traffic, there is practically no need of a giant fast road there because most of the traffic on I-81 IS through traffic.  As others have accurately pointed out, there are no signs that indicate that Syracuse is going to be bursting at the seems any time soon with new people moving in and no, a shiny new viaduct (or lack thereof) is probably not going to cure the ills of the city.  The number of people that actually exit in the core of Syracuse is very modest from my (admittedly anecdotal) observations.  Everybody always thinks whatever road they use most often is some snow flake of unimaginable importance to the world and that any change will ruin their lives.  I get it, its human nature and I'm sure I've fallen into that thinking before.

2. The boulevard doesn't cost almost as much as rebuilding the viaduct.  The boulevard PLUS substantial work to make I-481 capable of handling significantly more traffic.... Costs almost as much as the viaduct rebuild.

Chris 

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 18, 2020, 08:37:39 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 18, 2020, 08:34:14 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 18, 2020, 01:16:57 AM
Demolishing city is likely at this rate. Already started in Rochester.

Actually, I think downtown Rochester has very much improved since they filled that section of the loop.

The difference, obviously, is that there's no long distance traffic anywhere near our downtown. Even commuters didn't use the Inner Loop. Couldn't be more opposite to Syracuse in terms of the importance of the highway.
Exactly, and this is when RE/T groups try to compare demolishing I-81 to other local highway demolitions and say it doesn't hurt traffic. They fail to realize (or publicly admit) that I-81 is a long-distance interstate highway corridor with a heavy traffic load, and the other examples are localized freeways that don't get heavy usage.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 21, 2020, 06:58:35 PM
Eesh.  The truth lies between that optimism and those that predict Armageddon.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 21, 2020, 07:21:52 PM
Quote from: bemybear on January 21, 2020, 10:51:02 AM
Also, the 'corridor' will be intact.  Normal non road geeks will blandly/blindly follow signage and be on the lovely modern and soon to be improved I-481.  They aren't creating a section of gravel road between Scranton and I-90.  They are shifting a bunch of trucks and disinterested through traffic to a newer piece of road and turning the old road which used to be the almost everybody road into hopefully a reasonably tolerable road that most non Syracuse people will never use and most people who do use it will on only be on for 2 or 3 miles.  How this modest change becomes the downfall of an entire region is really a head scratcher.
I-481 is a beltway route that serves primarily local traffic. Pushing thru traffic on it will only overload it, and necessitate widening its 14 miles to 6-lanes, at least $300 million, if not much more. The movement from I-81 North to I-690 West will be eliminated and reduced to local boulevard, or far out of the way on I-481 and I-690.

Quote from: bemybear on January 21, 2020, 10:51:02 AM
2. The boulevard doesn't cost almost as much as rebuilding the viaduct.  The boulevard PLUS substantial work to make I-481 capable of handling significantly more traffic.... Costs almost as much as the viaduct rebuild.
Community grid - $1.9 billion
Viaduct replacement - $2.2 billion

$300 million difference. Once you factor eventual I-481 widening for 14 miles, you're talking the same costs, or even more for the community grid & I-481 re-route.

Viaduct replacement benefits local, regional, and long-distance traffic alike. The community grid pours $1.9 billion into a project to appease locals, NIMBY, and RE/T groups that doesn't have a widespread benefit. The viaduct replacement would also continue to allow 2 north-south routes - the main I-81 and an alternate I-481. A community grid restricts this solely to I-481, and offers no other north-south options. The viaduct replacement additionally has more lane capacity overall, 4 lanes on I-481, and 6 lanes on a replaced I-81 - 10 north-south lanes total. The community grid restricts this to only 4 lanes, 6 lanes if they pour $300 million or more into widening. The viaduct replacement also keeps the I-81 North to I-690 West movement intact, the community grid eliminates this, requiring use of surface streets, or traveling out of the way to remain on interstate highways.

Ultimately, the viaduct replacement is the better option in the long-term of things, and benefits all. The community grid will shift traffic patterns, congest the only other north-south route necessitating future widening, add mileage, and eliminate regional interstate movements, all to appease locals, NIMBY, and RE/T groups.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on January 22, 2020, 11:23:02 AM
Quote from: webny99 on January 19, 2020, 12:36:12 PM
Quote from: ixnay on January 18, 2020, 09:24:35 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 18, 2020, 08:34:14 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 18, 2020, 01:16:57 AM
Demolishing city is likely at this rate. Already started in Rochester.

Actually, I think downtown Rochester has very much improved since they filled that section of the loop.

More businesses coming downtown iow?  Improved nightlife?  A safer downtown?  Better community coherence?

Not sure about safety (that has never really been an issue in the CBD), but definitely all of the above other than that.

It's amazing how much less of a ghost town it feels like with that empty highway filled, and it really provides a lot more continuity between booming areas like Park Avenue/ South Wedge and the CBD. (And at least we have some new vacant buildings now instead of just old ones!  :-D)

Has downtown Niagara Falls benefited similarly from the removal of the Robert Moses Parkway?  Looking at Google Sat, it looks like downtown Houston with all the parking lots.

ixnay
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on January 22, 2020, 12:19:50 PM
Considering that urban renewal that created many of those downtown parking lots happened back in the 1960s and 1970s, I'd say... give it time. There are a lot of redevelopment proposals underway in the Niagara Falls area and in downtown to the north.

I'm pretty certain you aren't sad over the removal of the Parkway through the state park, right?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 22, 2020, 01:00:32 PM
Right.  The parkway was removed only recently.  It's a bit early to gauge its effects which I doubt will be major.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 22, 2020, 06:14:39 PM
How much traffic used the Robert Moses Parkway before it was torn down? How much traffic currently uses Interstate 81 in Syracuse? I suspect the traffic counts on Interstate 81 could make the case that the viaduct should not be removed.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 22, 2020, 07:44:19 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 22, 2020, 06:14:39 PM
How much traffic used the Robert Moses Parkway before it was torn down? How much traffic currently uses Interstate 81 in Syracuse? I suspect the traffic counts on Interstate 81 could make the case that the viaduct should not be removed.
Local freeway vs. long-distance interstate.

A flawed comparison proponents of demolishing Interstate 81 use.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 22, 2020, 08:56:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 22, 2020, 07:44:19 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 22, 2020, 06:14:39 PM
How much traffic used the Robert Moses Parkway before it was torn down? How much traffic currently uses Interstate 81 in Syracuse? I suspect the traffic counts on Interstate 81 could make the case that the viaduct should not be removed.
Local freeway vs. long-distance interstate.

A flawed comparison proponents of demolishing Interstate 81 use.
Long distance traffic in the area of interest  can  fit on 2-lane road. area of interest is something like 80% commuting.
It may be hard to imagine that in VA, but Syracuse is at the dead end of things geographically, with long haul traffic (a) not very numerous and (b) avoiding ride through the city center.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 22, 2020, 09:26:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 22, 2020, 08:56:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 22, 2020, 07:44:19 PM
Local freeway vs. long-distance interstate.
A flawed comparison proponents of demolishing Interstate 81 use.
Long distance traffic in the area of interest  can  fit on 2-lane road. area of interest is something like 80% commuting.
It may be hard to imagine that in VA, but Syracuse is at the dead end of things geographically, with long haul traffic (a) not very numerous and (b) avoiding ride through the city center.
Really?  Crossroads of I-90 New York Thruway and I-81. 

I-81 is a major connector to Canada.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 22, 2020, 09:37:21 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 22, 2020, 09:26:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 22, 2020, 08:56:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 22, 2020, 07:44:19 PM
Local freeway vs. long-distance interstate.
A flawed comparison proponents of demolishing Interstate 81 use.
Long distance traffic in the area of interest  can  fit on 2-lane road. area of interest is something like 80% commuting.
It may be hard to imagine that in VA, but Syracuse is at the dead end of things geographically, with long haul traffic (a) not very numerous and (b) avoiding ride through the city center.
Really?  Crossroads of I-90 New York Thruway and I-81. 

I-81 is a major connector to Canada.
Not to mention, the major I-81 to I-90 connection via I-690 that would be eliminated.

I-90 is a major east-west interstate highway, certainly not at the "dead end of things" .
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 22, 2020, 10:33:54 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 22, 2020, 09:37:21 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 22, 2020, 09:26:57 PM
Crossroads of I-90 New York Thruway and I-81.  I-81 is a major connector to Canada.
Not to mention, the major I-81 to I-90 connection via I-690 that would be eliminated.
I-90 is a major east-west interstate highway, certainly not at the "dead end of things" .
If they want to keep calling themselves the "Empire State," then they need to do better than this.

The source of the term "Empire State" is uncertain.  It has been attributed to the state's wealth and resources, but there is some doubt regarding that.  Two possible stories involve America's first president George Washington.

There are several theories on the origin of the name.  Two of them involve George Washington, one credits aggressive trade routes, and another associates the nickname with New York exceeding Virginia in population.  None has been proven.  One commonly accepted tale says that, when Washington was given a full map of New York prior to the Battle of New York, he remarked on New York's natural geographic advantages, proclaiming New York the "Seat of an Empire".


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_State
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 22, 2020, 10:45:25 PM
Well, that conversation took a weird turn.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 23, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 22, 2020, 09:26:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 22, 2020, 08:56:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 22, 2020, 07:44:19 PM
Local freeway vs. long-distance interstate.
A flawed comparison proponents of demolishing Interstate 81 use.
Long distance traffic in the area of interest  can  fit on 2-lane road. area of interest is something like 80% commuting.
It may be hard to imagine that in VA, but Syracuse is at the dead end of things geographically, with long haul traffic (a) not very numerous and (b) avoiding ride through the city center.
Really?  Crossroads of I-90 New York Thruway and I-81. 

I-81 is a major connector to Canada.
Can you guess traffic count towards Canada on I-81 without looking it up?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 23, 2020, 06:12:52 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 23, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 22, 2020, 09:26:57 PM
Crossroads of I-90 New York Thruway and I-81. 
I-81 is a major connector to Canada.
Can you guess traffic count towards Canada on I-81 without looking it up?
A low of 16,000 south of Watertown and over 22,000 in the Watertown area.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on January 23, 2020, 06:56:44 AM
While an important connector, it's not as busy as some boasters make it out to be.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 23, 2020, 07:34:58 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 23, 2020, 06:12:52 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 23, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 22, 2020, 09:26:57 PM
Crossroads of I-90 New York Thruway and I-81. 
I-81 is a major connector to Canada.
Can you guess traffic count towards Canada on I-81 without looking it up?
A low of 16,000 south of Watertown and over 22,000 in the Watertown area.
and less than 6000 at actual border crossing.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on January 23, 2020, 11:08:44 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 22, 2020, 08:56:01 PM
Syracuse is at the dead end of things geographically

Wouldn't that be Oswego?


Quote from: ixnay on January 22, 2020, 11:23:02 AM
Quote from: webny99 on January 19, 2020, 12:36:12 PM
Quote from: ixnay on January 18, 2020, 09:24:35 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 18, 2020, 08:34:14 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 18, 2020, 01:16:57 AM
Demolishing city is likely at this rate. Already started in Rochester.
Actually, I think downtown Rochester has very much improved since they filled that section of the loop.
More businesses coming downtown iow?  Improved nightlife?  A safer downtown?  Better community coherence?
Not sure about safety (that has never really been an issue in the CBD), but definitely all of the above other than that.
It's amazing how much less of a ghost town it feels like with that empty highway filled, and it really provides a lot more continuity between booming areas like Park Avenue/ South Wedge and the CBD. (And at least we have some new vacant buildings now instead of just old ones!  :-D)
Has downtown Niagara Falls benefited similarly from the removal of the Robert Moses Parkway?  Looking at Google Sat, it looks like downtown Houston with all the parking lots.

Complicated question, but almost certainly "no". The RMSP was weirdly located, and the removal didn't do much in terms of connectivity. Niagara Falls has the tourist area near the falls, and the rest of it is a grim, depressed place. I don't think any changes to the road network are going to change that, as they don't have two separate thriving areas (the CBD/Corn Hill/South Wedge and the Park/East Ave area, in Rochester's case). It's basically just the falls and that's it, as far as economic activity.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on January 24, 2020, 07:21:27 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 23, 2020, 06:12:52 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 23, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 22, 2020, 09:26:57 PM
Crossroads of I-90 New York Thruway and I-81. 
I-81 is a major connector to Canada.
Can you guess traffic count towards Canada on I-81 without looking it up?
A low of 16,000 south of Watertown and over 22,000 in the Watertown area.

I'll help Scott out here since I've read through the studies:

Approximately 6K AADT in I-81 through traffic through Syracuse.  Given that the Syracuse viaduct in question has about 100K on its southern approach, that 6K is not a large number.  And kalvado's right in that it would fit onto a 2-lane road.

For the I-81 South to I-90 West connection that everyone is lamenting, the number is even lower...just over 2K.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:26:08 AM
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 07:21:27 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 23, 2020, 06:12:52 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 23, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Can you guess traffic count towards Canada on I-81 without looking it up?
A low of 16,000 south of Watertown and over 22,000 in the Watertown area.
I'll help Scott out here since I've read through the studies:
Approximately 6K AADT in I-81 through traffic through Syracuse.  Given that the Syracuse viaduct in question has about 100K on its southern approach, that 6K is not a large number.  And kalvado's right in that it would fit onto a 2-lane road.
How does the 'study' define "through traffic?"

For example, do they ignore traffic between Syracuse and the Watertown area?  To the Fort Drum area?  Between south of Syracuse and those places?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 08:52:07 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:26:08 AM
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 07:21:27 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 23, 2020, 06:12:52 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 23, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Can you guess traffic count towards Canada on I-81 without looking it up?
A low of 16,000 south of Watertown and over 22,000 in the Watertown area.
I'll help Scott out here since I've read through the studies:
Approximately 6K AADT in I-81 through traffic through Syracuse.  Given that the Syracuse viaduct in question has about 100K on its southern approach, that 6K is not a large number.  And kalvado's right in that it would fit onto a 2-lane road.
How does the 'study' define "through traffic?"

For example, do they ignore traffic between Syracuse and the Watertown area?  To the Fort Drum area?  Between south of Syracuse and those places?

entire Jefferson county is 116k in 2010, estimated decline to 111k today.
How many of those people take long haul drive more than once a week?
How many of those who do drive go beyond airport or a big shopping mall?  both drives are not affected by this project.

You see, there is a lot of discussion here regarding who is actually affected by the project. Discussions by those who know the area, drove there, and have some idea what this is about. I, for one, is not a big expert - I've been there maybe 30-50 times. Things are messy - but they are messy not the way you think about it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 09:49:11 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 08:52:07 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:26:08 AM
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 07:21:27 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 23, 2020, 06:12:52 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 23, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Can you guess traffic count towards Canada on I-81 without looking it up?
A low of 16,000 south of Watertown and over 22,000 in the Watertown area.
I'll help Scott out here since I've read through the studies:
Approximately 6K AADT in I-81 through traffic through Syracuse.  Given that the Syracuse viaduct in question has about 100K on its southern approach, that 6K is not a large number.  And kalvado's right in that it would fit onto a 2-lane road.
How does the 'study' define "through traffic?"
For example, do they ignore traffic between Syracuse and the Watertown area?  To the Fort Drum area?  Between south of Syracuse and those places?
entire Jefferson county is 116k in 2010, estimated decline to 111k today.
How many of those people take long haul drive more than once a week?
How many of those who do drive go beyond airport or a big shopping mall?  both drives are not affected by this project.
There should be engineering data in the report that would have the specifics.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on January 24, 2020, 11:13:34 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:26:08 AM
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 07:21:27 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 23, 2020, 06:12:52 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 23, 2020, 06:03:44 AM
Can you guess traffic count towards Canada on I-81 without looking it up?
A low of 16,000 south of Watertown and over 22,000 in the Watertown area.
I'll help Scott out here since I've read through the studies:
Approximately 6K AADT in I-81 through traffic through Syracuse.  Given that the Syracuse viaduct in question has about 100K on its southern approach, that 6K is not a large number.  And kalvado's right in that it would fit onto a 2-lane road.
How does the 'study' define "through traffic?"

For example, do they ignore traffic between Syracuse and the Watertown area?  To the Fort Drum area?  Between south of Syracuse and those places?

The cordons were the two I-81/481 interchanges and the I-690 interchange on the Thruway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 24, 2020, 12:38:20 PM
IMO traffic to/from the north really isn't affected much if at all.  To get to/from the south, they'll just take current I-481 (which signs already direct them to anyways).  If they want to go to/from the mall or downtown, the current route will still be a freeway to I-690.  If they want to go to the southwest side, they'll have to take NY 298, which is disappointing, but not a change from current conditions.

It's traffic from Cortland/Binghamton/PA looking to go to the western suburbs/mall/State Fair/points west that feels the big impact - which is why it keeps coming up again and again.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 01:48:20 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 09:49:11 AM
There should be engineering data in the report that would have the specifics.
Well, lets look at a bigger picture.
You are trying to close the case "this stretch is essential for long haul through traffic"
THere are several people familiar with the area who tell you that this is a very weak case, there is only that much through traffic  as there is not much there up north, nor there a lot to the south until you drive at least 150 miles to Wilkes-Barre, or 200+ ty NYC-Philli.
Vdeane is pretty correct (I added something to the quote) - that is who would get problems, along with commuters .
Quote from: vdeane on January 24, 2020, 12:38:20 PM
It's traffic from Cortland/Binghamton/PA/Ithaca and Cornell looking to go to the SYR airport/western suburbs/mall/State Fair/points west that feels the big impact - which is why it keeps coming up again and again.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on January 24, 2020, 02:08:12 PM
Syracuse gets some traffic for Ithaca/Cornell, but we found that about 50% of our students that do fly go out of Rochester and the remainder fly out of Ithaca (which will soon be an international airport).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 01:48:20 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 09:49:11 AM
There should be engineering data in the report that would have the specifics.
Well, lets look at a bigger picture.
You are trying to close the case "this stretch is essential for long haul through traffic"
I did not use those words or say that.

I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.

Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 01:48:20 PM
THere are several people familiar with the area who tell you that this is a very weak case, there is only that much through traffic  as there is not much there up north, nor there a lot to the south until you drive at least 150 miles to Wilkes-Barre, or 200+ ty NYC-Philli.

Data.  Need engineering data.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 03:24:09 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 01:48:20 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 09:49:11 AM
There should be engineering data in the report that would have the specifics.
Well, lets look at a bigger picture.
You are trying to close the case "this stretch is essential for long haul through traffic"
I did not use those words or say that.

I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.

Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 01:48:20 PM
THere are several people familiar with the area who tell you that this is a very weak case, there is only that much through traffic  as there is not much there up north, nor there a lot to the south until you drive at least 150 miles to Wilkes-Barre, or 200+ ty NYC-Philli.

Data.  Need engineering data.
http://thei81challenge.org/cm/ResourceFiles/resources/SMTC%20Model%20Version%203.023%20Documentation.pdf
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 11:13:34 AM
The cordons were the two I-81/481 interchanges and the I-690 interchange on the Thruway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 11:13:34 AM
The cordons were the two I-81/481 interchanges and the I-690 interchange on the Thruway.

It is very hard to believe that 6,000 AADT is all the I-81 traffic that passes both of those I-81/I-481 points.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 07:14:21 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 11:13:34 AM
The cordons were the two I-81/481 interchanges and the I-690 interchange on the Thruway.

It is very hard to believe that 6,000 AADT is all the I-81 traffic that passes both of those I-81/I-481 points.
You ask for study results and details, then when they contradict what you think it should be, you claim they're false. But if they are what you think they should be, you back it and cite it when necessary.

You've done this a lot.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on January 24, 2020, 07:15:30 PM
It's even harder to believe that there's only 2000 VPD transitioning between I-81 NB and the Thruway WB and vice versa. Maybe on a winter weekday when there's a big snowstorm (just to name a situation when few people would want to be traveling); but in the summer? I don't think so. I look at the volume of Ontario and PA license plates on either route and I'm highly skeptical.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 07:25:31 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 24, 2020, 07:15:30 PM
It's even harder to believe that there's only 2000 VPD transitioning between I-81 NB and the Thruway WB and vice versa. Maybe on a winter weekday when there's a big snowstorm (just to name a situation when few people would want to be traveling); but in the summer? I don't think so. I look at the volume of Ontario and PA license plates on either route and I'm highly skeptical.
Could also be decent amount during peak vs. very little to none off peak. Remember it is averaged.

May be better to see peak volumes separate from overall AADT. The design needs to be designed off that IMO.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 07:26:13 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 07:14:21 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 11:13:34 AM
The cordons were the two I-81/481 interchanges and the I-690 interchange on the Thruway.
It is very hard to believe that 6,000 AADT is all the I-81 traffic that passes both of those I-81/I-481 points.
You ask for study results and details, then when they contradict what you think it should be, you claim they're false. But if they are what you think they should be, you back it and cite it when necessary.
OK, where in the report does it specifically say that?

Of the face of it that seems very unlikely, on a small beltway such as that in that metro.

Just asserting some "fact" exists doesn't make it proven.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 07:27:03 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 07:26:13 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 07:14:21 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 11:13:34 AM
The cordons were the two I-81/481 interchanges and the I-690 interchange on the Thruway.
It is very hard to believe that 6,000 AADT is all the I-81 traffic that passes both of those I-81/I-481 points.
You ask for study results and details, then when they contradict what you think it should be, you claim they're false. But if they are what you think they should be, you back it and cite it when necessary.
OK, where in the report does it specifically say that?

Of the face of it that seems very unlikely, on a small beltway such as that in that metro.

Just asserting some "fact" exists doesn't make it proven.
Not disagreeing with you, but you did ask for study results and were given such.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 07:29:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 07:27:03 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 07:26:13 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 07:14:21 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 11:13:34 AM
The cordons were the two I-81/481 interchanges and the I-690 interchange on the Thruway.
It is very hard to believe that 6,000 AADT is all the I-81 traffic that passes both of those I-81/I-481 points.
You ask for study results and details, then when they contradict what you think it should be, you claim they're false. But if they are what you think they should be, you back it and cite it when necessary.
OK, where in the report does it specifically say that?
Of the face of it that seems very unlikely, on a small beltway such as that in that metro.
Just asserting some "fact" exists doesn't make it proven.
Not disagreeing with you, but you did ask for study results and were given such.
Can't just claim "the report says xxxx" without showing where it says that.

Some posters have a habit of doing that.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 07:48:04 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 07:29:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 07:27:03 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 07:26:13 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 07:14:21 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 24, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 03:11:34 PM
I said that it depends on how "through traffic" is defined.
Quote from: froggie on January 24, 2020, 11:13:34 AM
The cordons were the two I-81/481 interchanges and the I-690 interchange on the Thruway.
It is very hard to believe that 6,000 AADT is all the I-81 traffic that passes both of those I-81/I-481 points.
You ask for study results and details, then when they contradict what you think it should be, you claim they're false. But if they are what you think they should be, you back it and cite it when necessary.
OK, where in the report does it specifically say that?
Of the face of it that seems very unlikely, on a small beltway such as that in that metro.
Just asserting some "fact" exists doesn't make it proven.
Not disagreeing with you, but you did ask for study results and were given such.
Can't just claim "the report says xxxx" without showing where it says that.

Some posters have a habit of doing that.
Please see figure 23 on page 64 (p. 65 pdf) : http://thei81challenge.org/cm/ResourceFiles/resources/SMTC%20Model%20Version%203.023%20Documentation.pdf
Is that a good enough reference for you?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:15:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 07:48:04 PM
Please see figure 23 on page 64 (p. 65 pdf) : http://thei81challenge.org/cm/ResourceFiles/resources/SMTC%20Model%20Version%203.023%20Documentation.pdf
Is that a good enough reference for you?
According to that, closer to 2,000?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on January 24, 2020, 08:48:03 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:15:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 07:48:04 PM
Please see figure 23 on page 64 (p. 65 pdf) : http://thei81challenge.org/cm/ResourceFiles/resources/SMTC%20Model%20Version%203.023%20Documentation.pdf
Is that a good enough reference for you?
According to that, closer to 2,000?
Please stop questioning facts. You have a habit of doing that.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on January 24, 2020, 09:45:29 PM
It's nice to finally see numbers, but looking through, there is one key thing missing: freight movements. The study considers person-trips. The words "truck", "freight", or "heavy" appear a total of 0 times in the document. 81 on the south side of the metro is 25% trucks. I want to know how they are moving, how many of them are terminating in the metro area, and where they are terminating in the metro area. If they're using license plate data, it would have been very easy to track truck movements.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 25, 2020, 12:06:52 AM
Quote from: Alps on January 24, 2020, 08:48:03 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:15:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 07:48:04 PM
Please see figure 23 on page 64 (p. 65 pdf) : http://thei81challenge.org/cm/ResourceFiles/resources/SMTC%20Model%20Version%203.023%20Documentation.pdf
Is that a good enough reference for you?
According to that, closer to 2,000?
Please stop questioning facts. You have a habit of doing that.
I'm still trying to determine the FActs and the data.

I've seen 6,000 and 2,000 posted here.

If you know the FActs then please post them.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on January 25, 2020, 01:09:04 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 25, 2020, 12:06:52 AM
Quote from: Alps on January 24, 2020, 08:48:03 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:15:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 07:48:04 PM
Please see figure 23 on page 64 (p. 65 pdf) : http://thei81challenge.org/cm/ResourceFiles/resources/SMTC%20Model%20Version%203.023%20Documentation.pdf
Is that a good enough reference for you?
According to that, closer to 2,000?
Please stop questioning facts. You have a habit of doing that.
I'm still trying to determine the FActs and the data.

I've seen 6,000 and 2,000 posted here.

If you know the FActs then please post them.
You want a number higher than 6000. You're not getting it. Too bad.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 25, 2020, 01:19:42 AM
Quote from: Alps on January 25, 2020, 01:09:04 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 25, 2020, 12:06:52 AM
Quote from: Alps on January 24, 2020, 08:48:03 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:15:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 07:48:04 PM
Please see figure 23 on page 64 (p. 65 pdf) : http://thei81challenge.org/cm/ResourceFiles/resources/SMTC%20Model%20Version%203.023%20Documentation.pdf
Is that a good enough reference for you?
According to that, closer to 2,000?
Please stop questioning facts. You have a habit of doing that.
I'm still trying to determine the FActs and the data.
I've seen 6,000 and 2,000 posted here.
If you know the FActs then please post them.
You want a number higher than 6000. You're not getting it. Too bad.
Unlike some people, I can embrace contradiction, as I analyze an issue and work toward finding a solution.  That means sometimes being found incorrect and needing to readjust my understanding.

Perhaps you could provide us an engineering analysis concerning this data point.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on January 25, 2020, 02:04:57 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 25, 2020, 01:19:42 AM
Quote from: Alps on January 25, 2020, 01:09:04 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 25, 2020, 12:06:52 AM
Quote from: Alps on January 24, 2020, 08:48:03 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 24, 2020, 08:15:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 24, 2020, 07:48:04 PM
Please see figure 23 on page 64 (p. 65 pdf) : http://thei81challenge.org/cm/ResourceFiles/resources/SMTC%20Model%20Version%203.023%20Documentation.pdf
Is that a good enough reference for you?
According to that, closer to 2,000?
Please stop questioning facts. You have a habit of doing that.
I'm still trying to determine the FActs and the data.
I've seen 6,000 and 2,000 posted here.
If you know the FActs then please post them.
You want a number higher than 6000. You're not getting it. Too bad.
Unlike some people, I can embrace contradiction, as I analyze an issue and work toward finding a solution.  That means sometimes being found incorrect and needing to readjust my understanding.

Perhaps you could provide us an engineering analysis concerning this data point.
OK, here goes.
This is a very macro model, far outside the reaches of I-481. We only see broad regional data. Anything closer than this, we don't know. So we don't know how much traffic is being generated from either cordon to I-481, going past the other I-481/81 junction. However, in broad terms, 1300 SB and 900 NB trips are through trips on I-81 in this region, or 2200 total. Page 79, the predicted trips are 1700 SB and 1200 NB. However, since the residential density on p. 22-23 is mostly within the confines of I-481, not too much traffic should be added to that. 6,000 is believable.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: amroad17 on January 25, 2020, 07:28:42 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 24, 2020, 12:38:20 PM
IMO traffic to/from the north really isn't affected much if at all.  To get to/from the south, they'll just take current I-481 (which signs already direct them to anyways).  If they want to go to/from the mall or downtown, the current route will still be a freeway to I-690.  If they want to go to the southwest side, they'll have to take NY 298, which is disappointing, but not a change from current conditions.

It's traffic from Cortland/Binghamton/PA looking to go to the western suburbs/mall/State Fair/points west that feels the big impact - which is why it keeps coming up again and again.
If a motorist comes toward Syracuse from the south and needs to go to the places mentioned by vdeane, they would have to use 2 or 4-lane suburban roads.  For example, if a motorist from Binghamton wants to go to the State Fair, they would either have to go through on the downtown "boulevard" to reach I-690 west or, if they wanted to avoid the downtown area completely, they would have to exit at the Nedrow interchange, go north on US 11, turn left on NY 173, turn right on West Genesee Street to reach the NY 5 Camillus bypass, and then exit on to NY 695 to reach the Fairgrounds.  A bit of a convoluted way to reach the destination but there aren't too many other options available short of following current I-481/future I-81 to I-690 west in DeWitt if a motorist wanted to stay on a freeway.

All this is contingent on completing the Community Grid option.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 25, 2020, 06:13:42 PM
Region 3 is developing the DEIS for the community grid option.  It's pretty locked in.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on January 25, 2020, 07:13:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 25, 2020, 06:13:42 PM
Region 3 is developing the DEIS for the community grid option.  It's pretty locked in.

Yep, soon (enough) some Syracusan will have to parody Springsteen's "I'm Going Down". :)

Meanwhile there are other bones of contention re the com-grid:

1)  What to name the boulevard.
2)  What to number it (and its approaches).  Business Loop [I-]81, perhaps?

ixnay
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on January 25, 2020, 07:17:19 PM
Quote from: ixnay on January 25, 2020, 07:13:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 25, 2020, 06:13:42 PM
Region 3 is developing the DEIS for the community grid option.  It's pretty locked in.

Yep, soon (enough) some Syracusan will have to parody Springsteen's "I'm Going Down". :)

Meanwhile there are other bones of contention re the com-grid:

1)  What to name the boulevard.
2)  What to number it (and its approaches).  Business Loop [I-]81, perhaps?

ixnay

It will be designated as BL 81, that is for sure. It might be designated as 81st Blvd, if they are feeling cheeky, and there is no actual 81st street in Syracuse.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 25, 2020, 07:35:04 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 25, 2020, 02:04:57 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 25, 2020, 01:19:42 AM
Perhaps you could provide us an engineering analysis concerning this data point.
OK, here goes.
This is a very macro model, far outside the reaches of I-481. We only see broad regional data. Anything closer than this, we don't know. So we don't know how much traffic is being generated from either cordon to I-481, going past the other I-481/81 junction. However, in broad terms, 1300 SB and 900 NB trips are through trips on I-81 in this region, or 2200 total. Page 79, the predicted trips are 1700 SB and 1200 NB. However, since the residential density on p. 22-23 is mostly within the confines of I-481, not too much traffic should be added to that. 6,000 is believable.
That seems a good analysis, and allows that the study could have been more detailed.

I-81 between Syracuse and Watertown is as low as about 15,000 AADT, and between Syracuse and Binghamton dips to 19,000 at one point; so the 6,000 thru figure may well fit with those data.

Still, the section of I-81 with the viaduct carries a lot of traffic, so there are other issues at work as well that factor into what should be done there, whatever final outcome takes place.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 25, 2020, 10:58:46 PM
Quote from: cl94 on January 24, 2020, 09:45:29 PM
It's nice to finally see numbers, but looking through, there is one key thing missing: freight movements. The study considers person-trips. The words "truck", "freight", or "heavy" appear a total of 0 times in the document. 81 on the south side of the metro is 25% trucks. I want to know how they are moving, how many of them are terminating in the metro area, and where they are terminating in the metro area. If they're using license plate data, it would have been very easy to track truck movements.
A number of truckers have threatened to divert to Auburn and elsewhere if the viaduct is removed.  The fact that the study didn't include freight is very, very interesting.  One would have thought that NYSDOT would have wanted yet more data to prove that the "community grid" won't negatively affect anything significant.

Quote from: amroad17 on January 25, 2020, 07:28:42 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 24, 2020, 12:38:20 PM
IMO traffic to/from the north really isn't affected much if at all.  To get to/from the south, they'll just take current I-481 (which signs already direct them to anyways).  If they want to go to/from the mall or downtown, the current route will still be a freeway to I-690.  If they want to go to the southwest side, they'll have to take NY 298, which is disappointing, but not a change from current conditions.

It's traffic from Cortland/Binghamton/PA looking to go to the western suburbs/mall/State Fair/points west that feels the big impact - which is why it keeps coming up again and again.
If a motorist comes toward Syracuse from the south and needs to go to the places mentioned by vdeane, they would have to use 2 or 4-lane suburban roads.  For example, if a motorist from Binghamton wants to go to the State Fair, they would either have to go through on the downtown "boulevard" to reach I-690 west or, if they wanted to avoid the downtown area completely, they would have to exit at the Nedrow interchange, go north on US 11, turn left on NY 173, turn right on West Genesee Street to reach the NY 5 Camillus bypass, and then exit on to NY 695 to reach the Fairgrounds.  A bit of a convoluted way to reach the destination but there aren't too many other options available short of following current I-481/future I-81 to I-690 west in DeWitt if a motorist wanted to stay on a freeway.

All this is contingent on completing the Community Grid option.
Can't just go up the downtown boulevard to I-690.  There will be no interchange between the two.  Additional local streets will be needed to make the connection.  I assume that's how NYSDOT will force traffic to disperse along the local streets rather than just take the boulevard.  The only ramps between I-690 and BL I-81 will be the existing ramps to the freeway to the north.

On that note, I really, really wish they would do something else for existing I-81.  Call the freeway I-481 or I-681 and make the rest a reference route (or touring route extension of I-681?).  I don't like interstate business routes (or bannered routes in general) and would rather that they just go away.

Just for fun, I also compared the distances for using current I-81 vs. I-481 and I-690 to using originally proposed I-390 to I-590 and I-490.  Despite looking similar on the surface, the contrast is stark - 4 miles to 12 miles vs. 3 miles to less than 8 miles.  And in my experience, I-590 moves faster (outside of rush hour) than I-481 does now, despite carrying all the traffic proposed I-390 would have and having a 10 mph slower speed limit!

Quote from: Rothman on January 25, 2020, 06:13:42 PM
Region 3 is developing the DEIS for the community grid option.  It's pretty locked in.
Yeah, because NY has billions for an air train to nowhere that no passenger will use to get to LaGuardia (seriously, we're spending billions to build what will essentially be a shuttle to an employee parking lot that probably wouldn't be needed were there a real and useful transit link to LaGuardia), but doesn't have a couple hundred million to replace the viaduct.  It will eviscerate NY's interstate network and Syracuse's freeway network, turning them into random corridor collections, and embolden freeway removal activists everywhere by being the first major through route to be obliterated.  Captain Picard put it best:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms_WY0s_1XM

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on January 26, 2020, 08:21:07 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 25, 2020, 10:58:46 PM
I don't like interstate business routes (or bannered routes in general) and would rather that they just go away.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  What could be so repugnant about bannered routes, vdeane?  And is there a thread on AARoads dedicated to this topic?

ixnay
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 26, 2020, 08:42:54 AM
Quote from: ixnay on January 26, 2020, 08:21:07 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 25, 2020, 10:58:46 PM
I don't like interstate business routes (or bannered routes in general) and would rather that they just go away.
We'll have to agree to disagree.  What could be so repugnant about bannered routes, vdeane?  And is there a thread on AARoads dedicated to this topic?
I don't like Interstate Business Routes on a freeways. 

They should be a standard Interstate route, either mainline or supplementary. 

At least 2 have been proposed in my state, on I-81 and on I-95.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 26, 2020, 10:33:11 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 26, 2020, 08:42:54 AM
At least 2 have been proposed in my state, on I-81 and on I-95.
Where?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on January 26, 2020, 01:02:27 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 26, 2020, 08:42:54 AM
Quote from: ixnay on January 26, 2020, 08:21:07 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 25, 2020, 10:58:46 PM
I don't like interstate business routes (or bannered routes in general) and would rather that they just go away.
We'll have to agree to disagree.  What could be so repugnant about bannered routes, vdeane?  And is there a thread on AARoads dedicated to this topic?
I don't like Interstate Business Routes on a freeways. 

They should be a standard Interstate route, either mainline or supplementary. 

At least 2 have been proposed in my state, on I-81 and on I-95.
If it's currently an Interstate and they're bypassing it (like green 40/85 in NC), it should have a 3di number. It was good enough for Interstate in 1957.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 26, 2020, 01:14:32 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 26, 2020, 01:02:27 PM
If it's currently an Interstate and they're bypassing it (like green 40/85 in NC), it should have a 3di number. It was good enough for Interstate in 1957.
The I-40 Business segment thru Winston-Salem is currently being eliminated and becoming solely US-421. This route is a full freeway and was apart of I-40 until it was relocated in 1992.

The I-85 Business segment from Greensboro to Lexington I believe is planned to be phased out and just become US-29 / US-70. This route is a full freeway between I-40 and the I-85 relocation completed in 2004, though is only expressway south of there with a mix of intersections and interchanges.

There was briefly an I-40 Business thru Greensboro when I-40 was relocated along the relocated I-85 and new segment of I-73 south of the city completed in 2008, though I-40 ended up being reverted back to its old route thru the city a few years later.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on January 26, 2020, 02:44:14 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 26, 2020, 01:14:32 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 26, 2020, 01:02:27 PM
If it's currently an Interstate and they're bypassing it (like green 40/85 in NC), it should have a 3di number. It was good enough for Interstate in 1957.
The I-40 Business segment thru Winston-Salem is currently being eliminated and becoming solely US-421. This route is a full freeway and was apart of I-40 until it was relocated in 1992.

The I-85 Business segment from Greensboro to Lexington I believe is planned to be phased out and just become US-29 / US-70. This route is a full freeway between I-40 and the I-85 relocation completed in 2004, though is only expressway south of there with a mix of intersections and interchanges.

There was briefly an I-40 Business thru Greensboro when I-40 was relocated along the relocated I-85 and new segment of I-73 south of the city completed in 2008, though I-40 ended up being reverted back to its old route thru the city a few years later.

See, unlike a certain poster, I looked those up myself to verify what you say, so I don't need to pester you endlessly for sources. I think that's a mistake. You wouldn't know US 421 or 29/70 would be a viable alternate route that takes you downtown, but an even 3di would give you that information.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 26, 2020, 03:25:49 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 26, 2020, 02:44:14 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 26, 2020, 01:14:32 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 26, 2020, 01:02:27 PM
If it's currently an Interstate and they're bypassing it (like green 40/85 in NC), it should have a 3di number. It was good enough for Interstate in 1957.
The I-40 Business segment thru Winston-Salem is currently being eliminated and becoming solely US-421. This route is a full freeway and was apart of I-40 until it was relocated in 1992.

The I-85 Business segment from Greensboro to Lexington I believe is planned to be phased out and just become US-29 / US-70. This route is a full freeway between I-40 and the I-85 relocation completed in 2004, though is only expressway south of there with a mix of intersections and interchanges.

There was briefly an I-40 Business thru Greensboro when I-40 was relocated along the relocated I-85 and new segment of I-73 south of the city completed in 2008, though I-40 ended up being reverted back to its old route thru the city a few years later.

See, unlike a certain poster, I looked those up myself to verify what you say, so I don't need to pester you endlessly for sources. I think that's a mistake. You wouldn't know US 421 or 29/70 would be a viable alternate route that takes you downtown, but an even 3di would give you that information.
Honestly speaking, who is driving without at least some navigation assistance - GPS, if not some pre-planning? So route numbers in most cases are just that - labels; and prefix isn't very relevant.
What does matter, though, is that I- prefix means certain minimum highway standard, with few exceptions. US- or State route can be literally anything. I wonder if any unpaved roads are designated...
In this sense business loop is deceiving as it pretends to be I-grade.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on January 26, 2020, 04:12:52 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 26, 2020, 02:44:14 PM
See, unlike a certain poster, I looked those up myself to verify what you say, so I don't need to pester you endlessly for sources. I think that's a mistake. You wouldn't know US 421 or 29/70 would be a viable alternate route that takes you downtown, but an even 3di would give you that information.
I-40 Business could reasonably become an even I-x40, though the I-85 Business route is only expressway grade and has at-grade intersections and private driveway connections, so that couldn't be an interstate regardless.

Kalvado does have a point though, most travelers nowadays rely solely on their navigation apps, and couldn't give any second thought to what designation is what. If Google Maps says take US-421 to avoid a wreck on I-40, they take it without question.

If an alt route to I-40 and I-85 was desired, VMS signage with travel times could be posted on either ends to provide choices. Once the I-840 beltway is completed around Greensboro, signage will be placed on either end of the beltway to provide travel times to the other end via - I-840 (northern beltway), I-73 / I-85 (southern beltway), or I-40 straight thru.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Beltway on January 26, 2020, 06:15:35 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 26, 2020, 10:33:11 AM
Quote from: Beltway on January 26, 2020, 08:42:54 AM
At least 2 have been proposed in my state, on I-81 and on I-95.
Where?
The I-95 Bypass of Richmond, what to do with existing I-95 between I-85 and I-64, late 1970s.

A relocation on I-81 near Abingdon as part of the Tier 1 EIS about 2005.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 26, 2020, 07:56:59 PM
Quote from: ixnay on January 26, 2020, 08:21:07 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 25, 2020, 10:58:46 PM
I don't like interstate business routes (or bannered routes in general) and would rather that they just go away.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  What could be so repugnant about bannered routes, vdeane?  And is there a thread on AARoads dedicated to this topic?

ixnay
They strike me as sloppy and over-complicate the highway system.  It's worth noting that I'm not a huge fan of overlaps either (they can be useful in certain circumstances but shouldn't be over-used, which can get frustrated when trying to enter one's travels on Travel Mapping).  States with a ton of bannered routes also tend to have a TON of overlaps (see: PA, North Carolina, etc.).  A good highway system isn't just a way to help people navigate from Point A to Point B - it's a work of art.

It's worth noting that NY doesn't really do bannered routes for the most part.  Sure, you'll see a few, but most of them don't actually exist.  NYSDOT Main Office doesn't acknowledge the truck routes at all.  There is no inventory of them and nobody knows where they all are.  NY 52 Business near Beacon is a reference route for half of it and a city street for the other half.  US 219 Business is part reference route, rest overlapped with NY 417.  US 62 Business, which is the only bannered route in the entire state as far as the Highway Data Services Bureau is concerned, is actually inventoried as US 62B in places because the inventory can't handle banners (the only reason it even exists is because Niagara Falls wouldn't take no for an answer).

If for some reason you really, really need a bannered route somewhere, NY's system of suffixes for child routes gets the job done (although in practice there are a few suffixed routes that are a bit odd and should probably be separate touring routes, like NY 9N).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on January 26, 2020, 09:10:20 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 26, 2020, 07:56:59 PM
Quote from: ixnay on January 26, 2020, 08:21:07 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 25, 2020, 10:58:46 PM
I don't like interstate business routes (or bannered routes in general) and would rather that they just go away.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  What could be so repugnant about bannered routes, vdeane?  And is there a thread on AARoads dedicated to this topic?

ixnay
They strike me as sloppy and over-complicate the highway system.  It's worth noting that I'm not a huge fan of overlaps either (they can be useful in certain circumstances but shouldn't be over-used, which can get frustrated when trying to enter one's travels on Travel Mapping).  States with a ton of bannered routes also tend to have a TON of overlaps (see: PA, North Carolina, etc.).  A good highway system isn't just a way to help people navigate from Point A to Point B - it's a work of art.

I agree that overlaps *can* create overloaded signage.

Until a year and change ago, the journey from the BP station in Glasgow, DE to the ghost of the Valero station (replaced by the Strawberry Lane overpass just before the Mason-Dixon Line) required negotiating in order

US 301/DE 896
US 301/DE 71/DE 896
US 301/DE 71
US 301
US 301/DE 15/DE 299
US 301/DE 299
US 301

Your highway taxes at work. :)

Then when the 301 toll road opened, those 301 signs probably wound up at the recycling plant.  :biggrin:

California probably got it right with minimal multiplexing.

QuoteIt's worth noting that NY doesn't really do bannered routes for the most part.  Sure, you'll see a few, but most of them don't actually exist.  NYSDOT Main Office doesn't acknowledge the truck routes at all.  There is no inventory of them and nobody knows where they all are.  NY 52 Business near Beacon is a reference route for half of it and a city street for the other half.  US 219 Business is part reference route, rest overlapped with NY 417.  US 62 Business, which is the only bannered route in the entire state as far as the Highway Data Services Bureau is concerned, is actually inventoried as US 62B in places because the inventory can't handle banners (the only reason it even exists is because Niagara Falls wouldn't take no for an answer).

If for some reason you really, really need a bannered route somewhere, NY's system of suffixes for child routes gets the job done (although in practice there are a few suffixed routes that are a bit odd and should probably be separate touring routes, like NY 9N).

Yes, I like NY's suffix system.  Other states should adopt it.  DE 896 Business in the aforementioned Glasgow, DE should become DE 896A.  But can you fit a fourth letter in that oval?

And closer to the topic, the new boulevard in Syracuse and its freeway approaches could become I-81B (as in Business), if you don't want green-signed interstates.  Good thoughts, vdeane.

ixnay
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on January 26, 2020, 09:41:35 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 26, 2020, 07:56:59 PM
It's worth noting that NY doesn't really do bannered routes for the most part.  Sure, you'll see a few, but most of them don't actually exist.  NYSDOT Main Office doesn't acknowledge the truck routes at all.  There is no inventory of them and nobody knows where they all are.  NY 52 Business near Beacon is a reference route for half of it and a city street for the other half.  US 219 Business is part reference route, rest overlapped with NY 417.  US 62 Business, which is the only bannered route in the entire state as far as the Highway Data Services Bureau is concerned, is actually inventoried as US 62B in places because the inventory can't handle banners (the only reason it even exists is because Niagara Falls wouldn't take no for an answer).

If for some reason you really, really need a bannered route somewhere, NY's system of suffixes for child routes gets the job done (although in practice there are a few suffixed routes that are a bit odd and should probably be separate touring routes, like NY 9N).

It is also worth noting that US 62 Business was NY 62A until 2006. Was a member of the "touring routes with 0% state maintenance" club, of which there aren't many other members. NY 3A, 28A, 55A, 148 and 470 are the only remaining ones I can immediately think of.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 26, 2020, 11:50:14 PM
The US 6 truck and alternate routes are interesting to me because I wonder if trucks really did use those long detours.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on January 26, 2020, 11:58:18 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 26, 2020, 11:50:14 PM
The US 6 truck and alternate routes are interesting to me because I wonder if trucks really did use those long detours.

I mean, with 6 Truck, they don't have much of a choice. I always figured Alternate 6/202 was for when the approach road is closed, which happens occasionally in the winter.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 27, 2020, 09:33:03 AM
Quote from: cl94 on January 26, 2020, 11:58:18 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 26, 2020, 11:50:14 PM
The US 6 truck and alternate routes are interesting to me because I wonder if trucks really did use those long detours.

I mean, with 6 Truck, they don't have much of a choice. I always figured Alternate 6/202 was for when the approach road is closed, which happens occasionally in the winter.
Sure, but I still wonder about actual compliance given the length of the detour.

I suppose the bridge at the one interchange is too low for them to sneak on the Palisades Parkway section.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on April 26, 2020, 12:07:01 AM
Quote from: ixnay on January 26, 2020, 09:10:20 PM
And closer to the topic, the new boulevard in Syracuse and its freeway approaches could become I-81B (as in Business), if you don't want green-signed interstates.


Or maybe NY 81A for Almond Street, with the freeway approach to 690 becoming I-181 or something along those lines.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: PHLBOS on April 29, 2020, 06:23:11 PM
Quote from: ixnay on January 26, 2020, 09:10:20 PM
DE 896 Business in the aforementioned Glasgow, DE should become DE 896A.  But can you fit a fourth letter in that oval?
One would have to use Series B for such or reduced height Series C.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TheDon102 on June 18, 2020, 12:51:19 AM
Whats the likelihood of the community grid option?


99%??
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on June 18, 2020, 07:44:06 AM
Quote from: TheDon102 on June 18, 2020, 12:51:19 AM
Whats the likelihood of the community grid option?


99%??
It was 99% around Xmas. By now everything depends on state financial situation probably, so do-nothing is a much more viable option.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on July 30, 2020, 07:07:12 PM
I saw this article last night on Syracuse.com: I-81 community grid proposal advances to feds for review
(https://www.syracuse.com/news/2020/07/i-81-community-grid-proposal-advances-to-feds-for-review.html)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: mrsman on August 24, 2020, 08:16:08 AM
This is interesting.  They are planning on renaming the corridor Business 81.  I imagine this is somewhat similar to Business 83 around York, PA that is actually a freeway at its ends (where it merges with the new I-83) and then a surface street through the central city.  Not quite like the Business freeways in Sacramento, NC ,and SC.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on August 24, 2020, 08:20:14 AM
It would be nice to see the freeway become downgraded by the historic Oakwood Cemetery but I'm not sure if that is in the plan as the bridges in the vicinity were recently rehabilitated. The original entrance would a great restored: https://goo.gl/maps/QdkifHSYMokAojHfA
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on August 24, 2020, 12:20:41 PM
I maintain that current I-81 will be falling down before anything is done to reroute it. We're in for a long set of court battles here. NY has tried to remove a couple other urban freeways Upstate and quietly tabled the proposals, so...

(Personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on August 24, 2020, 01:56:17 PM
Were they just ideas or had they moved into more formal proposals? NY has had success in removing freeways or killing freeways being built elsewhere for decades.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: SectorZ on August 24, 2020, 02:23:47 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 24, 2020, 12:20:41 PM
I maintain that current I-81 will be falling down before anything is done to reroute it. We're in for a long set of court battles here. NY has tried to remove a couple other urban freeways Upstate and quietly tabled the proposals, so...

(Personal opinion emphasized)

It'll come down to a photo finish with 84 in Hartford in that case.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on August 24, 2020, 03:00:54 PM
Quote from: seicer on August 24, 2020, 01:56:17 PM
Were they just ideas or had they moved into more formal proposals? NY has had success in removing freeways or killing freeways being built elsewhere for decades.

NY 198 was pretty formal. That was quietly tabled.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 24, 2020, 08:35:51 PM
As I recall, NY 198 ran into problems because community groups thought it didn't go far enough.

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on August 24, 2020, 09:39:32 PM
198 was...a mess. I can't say a lot about it in a public forum, but it was stopped at many levels. But yes, it was a "compromise solution" that the NIMBYs hated because it didn't go far enough and the feds hated because it axed a major artery.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on August 25, 2020, 06:31:40 PM
So, construction on turning Interstate 81 into a boulevard hasn't begun yet (not that I'm surprised). I hope the proposed federal review rejects the "community grid" and recommends the "rebuild the viaduct plan", although in a way that mitigates the impacts of that reconstruction. There should also be aesthetic improvements that make the viaduct less of an eyesore.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 25, 2020, 06:52:20 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 25, 2020, 06:31:40 PM
So, construction on turning Interstate 81 into a boulevard hasn't begun yet (not that I'm surprised). I hope the proposed federal review rejects the "community grid" and recommends the "rebuild the viaduct plan", although in a way that mitigates the impacts of that reconstruction. There should also be aesthetic improvements that make the viaduct less of an eyesore.
Keep dreaming. Truth is community grid is a best case scenario. More realistic option though 
Quote from: cl94 on August 24, 2020, 12:20:41 PM
[...] that current I-81 will be falling down before anything is done to reroute it. We're in for a long set of court battles here. NY has tried to remove a couple other urban freeways Upstate and quietly tabled the proposals, so...

(Personal opinion emphasized)

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 25, 2020, 08:52:20 PM
The best option would be a tunnel like every other city in the world outside of the US embraces.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 25, 2020, 08:59:31 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 25, 2020, 08:52:20 PM
The best option would be a tunnel like every other city in the world outside of the US embraces.
An even better option would be to install a teleportation system like every other civilized planet in the galaxy outside of Earth embraces!
Let this conclude the sci-fi portion of discussion and move to real  stuff.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 25, 2020, 09:09:12 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 25, 2020, 08:59:31 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 25, 2020, 08:52:20 PM
The best option would be a tunnel like every other city in the world outside of the US embraces.
An even better option would be to install a teleportation system like every other civilized planet in the galaxy outside of Earth embraces!
Let this conclude the sci-fi portion of discussion and move to real  stuff.
It is incredible that tunnels are compared to teleportation in the US.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on August 25, 2020, 09:36:15 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 25, 2020, 08:52:20 PM
The best option would be a tunnel like every other city in the world outside of the US embraces.
Much more expensive than the viaduct option. Unless you want to slap a hefty toll on it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 25, 2020, 09:41:34 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 25, 2020, 09:36:15 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 25, 2020, 08:52:20 PM
The best option would be a tunnel like every other city in the world outside of the US embraces.
Much more expensive than the viaduct option. Unless you want to slap a hefty toll on it.
A tolled road is better than no road, IMO. I sucks it is so taboo to build road tunnels anymore in the US. :/
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 25, 2020, 11:27:07 PM
Considering options besides the community grid now is futile.  The project has progressed too far through design and there's no reason for FHWA to reject it to the point where other options would be back on the table (especially the tunnel nonsense).

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 26, 2020, 03:14:16 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 25, 2020, 09:41:34 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 25, 2020, 09:36:15 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 25, 2020, 08:52:20 PM
The best option would be a tunnel like every other city in the world outside of the US embraces.
Much more expensive than the viaduct option. Unless you want to slap a hefty toll on it.
A tolled road is better than no road, IMO. I sucks it is so taboo to build road tunnels anymore in the US. :/
I surely hope this comes from a well meaning person. However being from a well to do area, you may fail to  grasp the meaning of a few words to be used in description of Syracuse situation.
Those words are "expensive", "poverty" and "arithmetic".
I invite you to find an envelope and use the backside to estimate the toll we are talking about. All the numbers you will need are mentioned in this thread. My calculations produce some numbers which make E-470 and Pennsylvania turnpike look cheap.
Now try to compare that with city of Syracuse means. Hint: average household income in the city is a touch below 50% on US median.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on August 26, 2020, 03:20:54 AM
^

Not to mention, through traffic volumes that are not high enough to make a toll self supporting.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on August 26, 2020, 11:40:14 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 25, 2020, 11:27:07 PM
Considering options besides the community grid now is futile.  The project has progressed too far through design and there's no reason for FHWA to reject it to the point where other options would be back on the table (especially the tunnel nonsense).

(personal opinion emphasized)

Agree completely. But I could totally see FHWA wanting additional improvements to 481 beyond what NY has proposed, especially given who is in charge right now and the Congressional representation. Has there ever been anything like this before that wasn't the result of a road plain falling down? The Sheridan had no traffic, so it isn't particularly comparable.

(Personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: mrsman on August 27, 2020, 08:19:04 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 26, 2020, 03:20:54 AM
^

Not to mention, through traffic volumes that are not high enough to make a toll self supporting.

The ironic thing is having a road like I-81 with tolls would just push more traffic onto I-481.  How many people would stay on I-81 with tolls?  Would that be more than what the surface streets under the community grid plan can handle?

Probably not.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 09, 2020, 08:17:07 PM
Have they started construction on the "community grid" yet? Or are they waiting for the viaduct to fall down first?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 10, 2020, 06:46:21 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 09, 2020, 08:17:07 PM
Have they started construction on the "community grid" yet? Or are they waiting for the viaduct to fall down first?
It's technically still in design.  First construction will be on I-481.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: yakra on October 11, 2020, 03:38:03 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 26, 2020, 02:44:14 PM
You wouldn't know US 421 or 29/70 would be a viable alternate route that takes you downtown, but an even 3di would give you that information.

Would it though?
yakra@BiggaTomato:~/TravelMapping/HighwayData/hwy_data$ for r in `ls */usai/*.wpt | sed 's~^../usai/\(.*\)\.wpt~\1~' | grep '^..\.i[2468]'`; do firefox "https://travelmapping.net/hb/showroute.php?r=$r"; done
Right away, we have have counterexamples in Little Rock.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Buffaboy on October 11, 2020, 06:23:04 PM
Is it just me or are infrastructure projects much more expensive here in the U.S. than in other countries? Back in the 1950s it didn't cost nearly as much to build a highway. Today, building four miles of highway could cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Look at U.S. 219 in Cattaraugus County. They can't even figure out how to extend it another 20-ish miles to Salamanca with the terrain, budget and land issues.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 11, 2020, 10:23:34 PM
Quote from: Buffaboy on October 11, 2020, 06:23:04 PM
Is it just me or are infrastructure projects much more expensive here in the U.S. than in other countries? Back in the 1950s it didn't cost nearly as much to build a highway. Today, building four miles of highway could cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Look at U.S. 219 in Cattaraugus County. They can't even figure out how to extend it another 20-ish miles to Salamanca with the terrain, budget and land issues.
Given how many people have mentioned this hunch, it is not just you.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 12, 2020, 09:24:24 PM
Have I mentioned fuck the community grid?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 12, 2020, 10:01:35 PM
I second that. However, it looks like that is what will ultimately be built. If Syracuse residents and commuters bitch about how the "community grid" has made things worse for them, we can give them a we-told-you-so!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 12, 2020, 10:08:20 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 12, 2020, 10:01:35 PM
I second that. However, it looks like that is what will ultimately be built. If Syracuse residents and commuters bitch about how the "community grid" has made things worse for them, we can give them a we-told-you-so!
In your infinite wisdom, what would you call a better solution? Bulldozing remainder of the town or robbing Fort Knox to pay for construction?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TheDon102 on October 12, 2020, 10:29:12 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 12, 2020, 10:08:20 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 12, 2020, 10:01:35 PM
I second that. However, it looks like that is what will ultimately be built. If Syracuse residents and commuters bitch about how the "community grid" has made things worse for them, we can give them a we-told-you-so!
In your infinite wisdom, what would you call a better solution? Bulldozing remainder of the town or robbing Fort Knox to pay for construction?

Bulldozing the town?? Sounds like a strawman. The proposed new viaduct wasn't the cross bronx... less than 25 properties would have been affected.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on October 12, 2020, 11:41:26 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 12, 2020, 10:08:20 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 12, 2020, 10:01:35 PM
I second that. However, it looks like that is what will ultimately be built. If Syracuse residents and commuters bitch about how the "community grid" has made things worse for them, we can give them a we-told-you-so!
In your infinite wisdom, what would you call a better solution? Bulldozing remainder of the town or robbing Fort Knox to pay for construction?
Put freeway at ground level. Sink rest of city below it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on October 12, 2020, 11:43:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 12, 2020, 09:24:24 PM
Have I mentioned fuck the community grid?

You're entitled to your opinion.  But, given your posting record (both here and on Facebook), you don't seem to understand that freeways are not always the right answer.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TheDon102 on October 13, 2020, 02:17:48 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 12, 2020, 11:43:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 12, 2020, 09:24:24 PM
Have I mentioned fuck the community grid?

You're entitled to your opinion.  But, given your posting record (both here and on Facebook), you don't seem to understand that freeways are not always the right answer.

How is the freeway not the right answer? It's already exists. No one is talking about a new freeway alignment through dense urban neighborhoods, simply a replacement of what already exists.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on October 13, 2020, 05:46:27 AM
^

Not to mention, the community grid is no cheap option either. Both cost well over a billion dollars, and at least you would be getting a new viaduct / wider interstate with a freeway replacement. With the community grid, much of that money is poured into redoing a street system and redesigning interchanges on I-481.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on October 13, 2020, 08:15:06 AM
They should just rebuild what they have.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 13, 2020, 09:09:44 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 12, 2020, 11:43:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 12, 2020, 09:24:24 PM
Have I mentioned fuck the community grid?

You're entitled to your opinion.  But, given your posting record (both here and on Facebook), you don't seem to understand that freeways are not always the right answer.
There are plenty of times I have supported freeway removals and see at grade boulevards as the right option over freeways. Yes I support freeways most of the time but not always. It seems you are only seeing posts from me about supporting freeways or ignoring my posts where I support their removals like the case with 375 in Detroit.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 13, 2020, 11:29:00 AM
Quote from: TheDon102 on October 13, 2020, 02:17:48 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 12, 2020, 11:43:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 12, 2020, 09:24:24 PM
Have I mentioned fuck the community grid?

You're entitled to your opinion.  But, given your posting record (both here and on Facebook), you don't seem to understand that freeways are not always the right answer.

How is the freeway not the right answer? It's already exists. No one is talking about a new freeway alignment through dense urban neighborhoods, simply a replacement of what already exists.
We're talking about significant change of alignment in a dense urban area. No, rebuild as-is isn't an option.
No, not even that way.
No, that wouldn't work as well.
Nope, that was already discussed.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on October 13, 2020, 11:58:19 AM
^

Quote from: TheDon102 on October 12, 2020, 10:29:12 PM
Bulldozing the town?? Sounds like a strawman. The proposed new viaduct wasn't the cross bronx... less than 25 properties would have been affected.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TheDon102 on October 13, 2020, 11:59:19 AM
Quote from: kalvado on October 13, 2020, 11:29:00 AM
Quote from: TheDon102 on October 13, 2020, 02:17:48 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 12, 2020, 11:43:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 12, 2020, 09:24:24 PM
Have I mentioned fuck the community grid?

You're entitled to your opinion.  But, given your posting record (both here and on Facebook), you don't seem to understand that freeways are not always the right answer.

How is the freeway not the right answer? It's already exists. No one is talking about a new freeway alignment through dense urban neighborhoods, simply a replacement of what already exists.
We're talking about significant change of alignment in a dense urban area. No, rebuild as-is isn't an option.
No, not even that way.
No, that wouldn't work as well.
Nope, that was already discussed.

How many properties will be affected by the new viaduct? It's also important to realize that having both 81 and 481 provide redundancy to the freeway network in New York State. Removing 81 to right wrongs of 50-60 years ago, isn't exactly viable. I'm sure if they literally replaced the viaduct within the existing ROI you would still have community opposition.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on October 13, 2020, 12:02:48 PM
Notice how I-20 / I-59 wasn't torn out of Birmingham, AL. It was replaced with a new, 8 lane freeway viaduct on existing location.

Not to mention, I-459 also exists for north-south traffic, and is aligned / serves as a long-distance bypass as opposed to I-481 which acts more like a beltway, not a viable through route.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 13, 2020, 12:27:08 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 13, 2020, 11:29:00 AM
Quote from: TheDon102 on October 13, 2020, 02:17:48 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 12, 2020, 11:43:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 12, 2020, 09:24:24 PM
Have I mentioned fuck the community grid?

You're entitled to your opinion.  But, given your posting record (both here and on Facebook), you don't seem to understand that freeways are not always the right answer.

How is the freeway not the right answer? It's already exists. No one is talking about a new freeway alignment through dense urban neighborhoods, simply a replacement of what already exists.
We're talking about significant change of alignment in a dense urban area. No, rebuild as-is isn't an option.
No, not even that way.
No, that wouldn't work as well.
Nope, that was already discussed.
We went to the moon yet rebuilding a road is too complex and expensive for one of the largest states in the country to take on. New York is also one of the highest taxed yet another excuse is there isn't enough money. Give me a break.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on October 13, 2020, 12:32:44 PM
Instead of going back and forth with our opinions, why don't we leave this thread to discuss factual, ongoing developments with I-81? Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 13, 2020, 12:43:11 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 13, 2020, 12:32:44 PM
Instead of going back and forth with our opinions, why don't we leave this thread to discuss factual, ongoing developments with I-81? Thanks in advance.
The community grid has been picked as the preferred alternative. There were others presented and I'm sure that examples exist of a project being canceled or altered after a preferred alternative was chosen. I don't see a discussion about the disappointment some folks have with this choice that hasn't been built or started yet dishonest or off topic.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 13, 2020, 02:08:10 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 13, 2020, 12:43:11 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 13, 2020, 12:32:44 PM
Instead of going back and forth with our opinions, why don't we leave this thread to discuss factual, ongoing developments with I-81? Thanks in advance.
The community grid has been picked as the preferred alternative. There were others presented and I'm sure that examples exist of a project being canceled or altered after a preferred alternative was chosen. I don't see a discussion about the disappointment some folks have with this choice that hasn't been built or started yet dishonest or off topic.

Nobody really likes community grid - but there is no better option here. Unfortunately, things just lined up the wrong way...
And if you want to compare things to Apollo program.. Just think about it - Wernher von Braun and Kurt Debus would have a lot of problems with H1B's these days...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 13, 2020, 02:22:20 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 13, 2020, 02:08:10 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 13, 2020, 12:43:11 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 13, 2020, 12:32:44 PM
Instead of going back and forth with our opinions, why don't we leave this thread to discuss factual, ongoing developments with I-81? Thanks in advance.
The community grid has been picked as the preferred alternative. There were others presented and I'm sure that examples exist of a project being canceled or altered after a preferred alternative was chosen. I don't see a discussion about the disappointment some folks have with this choice that hasn't been built or started yet dishonest or off topic.

Nobody really likes community grid - but there is no better option here. Unfortunately, things just lined up the wrong way...
And if you want to compare things to Apollo program.. Just think about it - Wernher von Braun and Kurt Debus would have a lot of problems with H1B's these days...
I get it. My reference to the landing on moon was just an apology how the US used to build incredible things that we still marvel at today and though we still build great things, far too often I read articles about proposed projects that get shot down with arguments that it simply can't be done due to this or that.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 14, 2020, 01:36:06 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 12, 2020, 10:01:35 PM
I second that. However, it looks like that is what will ultimately be built. If Syracuse residents and commuters bitch about how the "community grid" has made things worse for them, we can give them a we-told-you-so!
I don't think the Syracuse public is unified around a particular alternative.  I think it was a purely financial decision.  A few hundred million dollars of difference is pretty darned significant.

The major outstanding concern that I see is traffic coming from the south and headed west.  Not sure that issue will be resolved satisfactorily.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 14, 2020, 01:50:46 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2020, 01:36:06 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 12, 2020, 10:01:35 PM
I second that. However, it looks like that is what will ultimately be built. If Syracuse residents and commuters bitch about how the "community grid" has made things worse for them, we can give them a we-told-you-so!
I don't think the Syracuse public is unified around a particular alternative.  I think it was a purely financial decision.  A few hundred million dollars of difference is pretty darned significant.

The major outstanding concern that I see is traffic coming from the south and headed west.  Not sure that issue will be resolved satisfactorily.

(personal opinion emphasized)
I would rephrase that as different groups of locals are pretty unified against different options with no real consensus. Which means a lot of court and forum battles
However, on per-capita basis Syracuse project, when spread across entire NYS population, costs about 10% of Apollo project costs spread across US population - which is a < self-censored > money for 1 mile of a highway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: dkblake on October 14, 2020, 06:00:19 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2020, 01:36:06 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 12, 2020, 10:01:35 PM
I second that. However, it looks like that is what will ultimately be built. If Syracuse residents and commuters bitch about how the "community grid" has made things worse for them, we can give them a we-told-you-so!
I don't think the Syracuse public is unified around a particular alternative.  I think it was a purely financial decision.  A few hundred million dollars of difference is pretty darned significant.

The major outstanding concern that I see is traffic coming from the south and headed west.  Not sure that issue will be resolved satisfactorily.

(personal opinion emphasized)

I guess in theory the signs around Cortland will become "Trucks to Rochester Take I-81 to I-90 at Exit 34B"? (I'm somewhat out of the loop, but I'm assuming I-481 would become I-81 mainline.) It would probably add about 10 minutes- enough to be annoying, especially with DeWitt traffic, but not enough for other routing alternatives (i.e. NY 41) to be that viable.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on October 14, 2020, 08:59:09 PM
Whatever happens, NYSDOT will use the opportunity to switch I-81 to distanced based numbered interchanges!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on October 14, 2020, 09:56:24 PM
Quote from: dkblake on October 14, 2020, 06:00:19 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2020, 01:36:06 PM
...
The major outstanding concern that I see is traffic coming from the south and headed west.  Not sure that issue will be resolved satisfactorily.

(personal opinion emphasized)

I guess in theory the signs around Cortland will become "Trucks to Rochester Take I-81 to I-90 at Exit 34B"? (I'm somewhat out of the loop, but I'm assuming I-481 would become I-81 mainline.) It would probably add about 10 minutes- enough to be annoying, especially with DeWitt traffic, but not enough for other routing alternatives (i.e. NY 41) to be that viable.

Yes, I-481 would/will become mainline I-81. Trucks from Binghamton to Buffalo/Canada will likely end up using I-86 (as plenty do already), but Rochester is more complicated. Current signage on the Thruway directs trucks to Binghamton to use I-690 to I-81 (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9733265,-77.1296787,3a,62.8y,92.05h,89.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sokD4E0RX_mpWTJig_Dk84w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1), while northbound I-81 signage directs trucks to take I-81 straight to the Thruway.

I'm not sure what makes the difference there, but at the end of the day, trucks to Rochester are still going to end up biting the bullet and taking current I-481 around Syracuse. They might even end up just using the new surface boulevard. I likely will too, especially in light traffic or at night. It's just too much longer to take I-86/I-390, or mess around with the sub-par state route alternates in the eastern Finger Lakes.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 14, 2020, 11:59:30 PM
Just so you know, traffic light timing in Syracuse is terrible.  Synchronization is minimal.  I don't see that changing with the grid.

Oh, I am also ticked that it's getting rid of the McBride St. onramp to I-690 EB.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on October 15, 2020, 08:15:18 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2020, 11:59:30 PM
Just so you know, traffic light timing in Syracuse is terrible.  Synchronization is minimal.  I don't see that changing with the grid.

I wondered about that. If there's little to no chance of getting a green wave, that's going to deter long-distance traffic.
Is it known yet how many total lights there would be on the new boulevard?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 15, 2020, 09:03:11 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 15, 2020, 08:15:18 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2020, 11:59:30 PM
Just so you know, traffic light timing in Syracuse is terrible.  Synchronization is minimal.  I don't see that changing with the grid.

I wondered about that. If there's little to no chance of getting a green wave, that's going to deter long-distance traffic.
Is it known yet how many total lights there would be on the new boulevard?
Once upon a time, I witnessed how that was attempted in Albany. Left me wonder if NYSDOT engineers are able to find their gluts using both upper limbs!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on October 15, 2020, 12:26:54 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 15, 2020, 08:15:18 AM
Is it known yet how many total lights there would be on the new boulevard?

According to the plans dated April 2019, eleven.  Then, in the northbound direction, another 4 along Erie Blvd and 2 along an extended Pearl St.

Fortunately, compared with earlier renditions, the plans show left turn lanes at most intersections along the boulevard.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on October 15, 2020, 12:38:47 PM
Alright, time to answer a lot of the points brought up in the past few days while I was on vacation...

"Why can't they rebuild what they have?": Feds will only allow a complete rebuild that does not meet modern standards if there is an engineering reason why those standards could not be met. Rebuilding on the current alignment, but meeting modern standards, is technically feasible.
"It's only X properties!": Problem is what those properties are. Current I-81 is shoehorned in between a hospital and low-income housing, possibly the two hardest things to relocate right now. Most (if not all) affected properties are low-income housing or Syracuse University/its hospital and relocating either is politically infeasible.
"But what about 29/50 in Birmingham?": Different circumstances. ROW wasn't nearly as constrained and property takings were minimal. Even if there was property taking, Alabama is far more willing to plow through minority neighborhoods to build a road than New York is.

These points and the legal battles to come are why I expect the viaduct to fall down before shovels hit the ground.
(Personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 15, 2020, 01:08:18 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 15, 2020, 12:38:47 PM
Alright, time to answer a lot of the points brought up in the past few days while I was on vacation...

"Why can't they rebuild what they have?": Feds will only allow a complete rebuild that does not meet modern standards if there is an engineering reason why those standards could not be met. Rebuilding on the current alignment, but meeting modern standards, is technically feasible.
"It's only X properties!": Problem is what those properties are. Current I-81 is shoehorned in between a hospital and low-income housing, possibly the two hardest things to relocate right now. Most (if not all) affected properties are low-income housing or Syracuse University/its hospital and relocating either is politically infeasible.
"But what about 29/50 in Birmingham?": Different circumstances. ROW wasn't nearly as constrained and property takings were minimal. Even if there was property taking, Alabama is far more willing to plow through minority neighborhoods to build a road than New York is.

These points and the legal battles to come are why I expect the viaduct to fall down before shovels hit the ground.
(Personal opinion emphasized)

If only there was a way to pin this post for everyone to read before entering the discussion!
I would only add a few words about what  "not meeting standards" actually means: it is not some paperwork issue, it is high crash rates.  Reasons include: No shoulders. Steep curves with 45 MPH speed limit. Did I forget anything? 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on October 15, 2020, 02:18:53 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 15, 2020, 12:38:47 PM
Alright, time to answer a lot of the points brought up in the past few days while I was on vacation...

"Why can't they rebuild what they have?": Feds will only allow a complete rebuild that does not meet modern standards if there is an engineering reason why those standards could not be met. Rebuilding on the current alignment, but meeting modern standards, is technically feasible.
"It's only X properties!": Problem is what those properties are. Current I-81 is shoehorned in between a hospital and low-income housing, possibly the two hardest things to relocate right now. Most (if not all) affected properties are low-income housing or Syracuse University/its hospital and relocating either is politically infeasible.
"But what about 29/50 in Birmingham?": Different circumstances. ROW wasn't nearly as constrained and property takings were minimal. Even if there was property taking, Alabama is far more willing to plow through minority neighborhoods to build a road than New York is.

These points and the legal battles to come are why I expect the viaduct to fall down before shovels hit the ground.
(Personal opinion emphasized)
You know, though, existing hospital and low-income housing ARE engineering reasons - you can't engineer a road without taking properties that are infeasible.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 15, 2020, 03:02:36 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 15, 2020, 12:38:47 PM
Alright, time to answer a lot of the points brought up in the past few days while I was on vacation...

"Why can't they rebuild what they have?": Feds will only allow a complete rebuild that does not meet modern standards if there is an engineering reason why those standards could not be met. Rebuilding on the current alignment, but meeting modern standards, is technically feasible.
"It's only X properties!": Problem is what those properties are. Current I-81 is shoehorned in between a hospital and low-income housing, possibly the two hardest things to relocate right now. Most (if not all) affected properties are low-income housing or Syracuse University/its hospital and relocating either is politically infeasible.
"But what about 29/50 in Birmingham?": Different circumstances. ROW wasn't nearly as constrained and property takings were minimal. Even if there was property taking, Alabama is far more willing to plow through minority neighborhoods to build a road than New York is.

These points and the legal battles to come are why I expect the viaduct to fall down before shovels hit the ground.
(Personal opinion emphasized)
then build the damn tunnel. How can one of the richest counties in the world not afford a 10> mile tunnel. This is embarrassing. I guess I'll just bitch about this like the 710 tunnel in LA that wasn't built until it's done.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 15, 2020, 03:08:00 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 15, 2020, 03:02:36 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 15, 2020, 12:38:47 PM
Alright, time to answer a lot of the points brought up in the past few days while I was on vacation...

"Why can't they rebuild what they have?": Feds will only allow a complete rebuild that does not meet modern standards if there is an engineering reason why those standards could not be met. Rebuilding on the current alignment, but meeting modern standards, is technically feasible.
"It's only X properties!": Problem is what those properties are. Current I-81 is shoehorned in between a hospital and low-income housing, possibly the two hardest things to relocate right now. Most (if not all) affected properties are low-income housing or Syracuse University/its hospital and relocating either is politically infeasible.
"But what about 29/50 in Birmingham?": Different circumstances. ROW wasn't nearly as constrained and property takings were minimal. Even if there was property taking, Alabama is far more willing to plow through minority neighborhoods to build a road than New York is.

These points and the legal battles to come are why I expect the viaduct to fall down before shovels hit the ground.
(Personal opinion emphasized)
then build the damn tunnel. How can one of the richest counties in the world not afford a 10> mile tunnel. This is embarrassing. I guess I'll just bitch about this like the 710 tunnel in LA that wasn't built until it's done.
You better ask how residents of Syracuse can afford minimal housing and food (the answer is subsidized substandard housing and food stamps, as 30% live below poverty line). This is before any geology questions are asked.
Unlike much milder CA, living in the street in winter is not an option in upstate NY...and unlike well-to-do CA, rust belt cannot afford a few extra billion on frivolous highway projects.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on October 15, 2020, 03:21:13 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 15, 2020, 02:18:53 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 15, 2020, 12:38:47 PM
Alright, time to answer a lot of the points brought up in the past few days while I was on vacation...

"Why can't they rebuild what they have?": Feds will only allow a complete rebuild that does not meet modern standards if there is an engineering reason why those standards could not be met. Rebuilding on the current alignment, but meeting modern standards, is technically feasible.
"It's only X properties!": Problem is what those properties are. Current I-81 is shoehorned in between a hospital and low-income housing, possibly the two hardest things to relocate right now. Most (if not all) affected properties are low-income housing or Syracuse University/its hospital and relocating either is politically infeasible.
"But what about 29/50 in Birmingham?": Different circumstances. ROW wasn't nearly as constrained and property takings were minimal. Even if there was property taking, Alabama is far more willing to plow through minority neighborhoods to build a road than New York is.

These points and the legal battles to come are why I expect the viaduct to fall down before shovels hit the ground.
(Personal opinion emphasized)
You know, though, existing hospital and low-income housing ARE engineering reasons - you can't engineer a road without taking properties that are infeasible.

Define "infeasible". It's not technical infeasibility here, it's political infeasibility. As in NY is unwilling to relocate low-income housing. It's certainly possible to do so, but it would get so dragged down in court that it's not even worth attempting. FHWA only issues exemptions for physical infeasibility.

(Personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: dkblake on October 15, 2020, 04:42:15 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 15, 2020, 03:21:13 PM

Define "infeasible". It's not technical infeasibility here, it's political infeasibility. As in NY is unwilling to relocate low-income housing. It's certainly possible to do so, but it would get so dragged down in court that it's not even worth attempting. FHWA only issues exemptions for physical infeasibility.

(Personal opinion emphasized)

Especially since the political argument for getting rid of the viaduct is that it contributed to "other side of the tracks" inequality between the wealthier University hill and the poorer South Side projects...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kphoger on October 15, 2020, 05:54:22 PM
Wow, am I the only one who did a double-take at dkblake's username?

dzlsabe
dkblake
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on October 15, 2020, 07:01:11 PM
Quote from: dkblake on October 15, 2020, 04:42:15 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 15, 2020, 03:21:13 PM

Define "infeasible". It's not technical infeasibility here, it's political infeasibility. As in NY is unwilling to relocate low-income housing. It's certainly possible to do so, but it would get so dragged down in court that it's not even worth attempting. FHWA only issues exemptions for physical infeasibility.

(Personal opinion emphasized)

Especially since the political argument for getting rid of the viaduct is that it contributed to "other side of the tracks" inequality between the wealthier University hill and the poorer South Side projects...

An interesting revisit, from The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/11/syracuse-slums/416892/
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 16, 2020, 03:45:54 AM
Quote from: kalvado on October 15, 2020, 03:08:00 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 15, 2020, 03:02:36 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 15, 2020, 12:38:47 PM
Alright, time to answer a lot of the points brought up in the past few days while I was on vacation...

"Why can't they rebuild what they have?": Feds will only allow a complete rebuild that does not meet modern standards if there is an engineering reason why those standards could not be met. Rebuilding on the current alignment, but meeting modern standards, is technically feasible.
"It's only X properties!": Problem is what those properties are. Current I-81 is shoehorned in between a hospital and low-income housing, possibly the two hardest things to relocate right now. Most (if not all) affected properties are low-income housing or Syracuse University/its hospital and relocating either is politically infeasible.
"But what about 29/50 in Birmingham?": Different circumstances. ROW wasn't nearly as constrained and property takings were minimal. Even if there was property taking, Alabama is far more willing to plow through minority neighborhoods to build a road than New York is.

These points and the legal battles to come are why I expect the viaduct to fall down before shovels hit the ground.
(Personal opinion emphasized)
then build the damn tunnel. How can one of the richest counties in the world not afford a 10> mile tunnel. This is embarrassing. I guess I'll just bitch about this like the 710 tunnel in LA that wasn't built until it's done.
You better ask how residents of Syracuse can afford minimal housing and food (the answer is subsidized substandard housing and food stamps, as 30% live below poverty line). This is before any geology questions are asked.
Unlike much milder CA, living in the street in winter is not an option in upstate NY...and unlike well-to-do CA, rust belt cannot afford a few extra billion on frivolous highway projects.
I am not quite sure what you're getting at. It isn't about being to afford it. This country has the money to undertake massive infrastructure projects. It's about allocating the money and as said here political feasibility. This freeway serves more than the residents of Syracuse.

At the end of the day it can be built and any person that says the only option is for it to go with no replacement is just making up excuses to support their desire to see it go away. There were alternatives given that would result in less property acquisitions while still maintaining this route through Syracuse as a tunnel but it was costly. Then there were alternatives given that would rebuild the viaduct as is or expanded. Can't do that either says some. The only option apparently is a downgraded facility and a rerouted interstate that will become like I-40 in Memphis. Just horrible short term planning going on here.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 17, 2020, 03:07:57 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 16, 2020, 03:45:54 AM
This country has the money to undertake massive infrastructure projects.
I don't know which country you live in, but in US highway trust fund is predicted to go into red in a few years, federal and state budgets are running significantly deficit, and arguably much more important project of similar value in NY  - replacement of Tappan Zee bridge, a strategic link between upstate and NYC - was done using loans without identified repayment sources.   
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 16, 2020, 03:45:54 AMJust horrible short term planning going on here.
Why, it is pretty much a part of a long term strategy: "last person out of upstate, please turn off the lights before you leave". More seriously, negative growth of population is a predicted trend over here, traffic is planned accordingly
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 17, 2020, 03:11:33 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 17, 2020, 03:07:57 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 16, 2020, 03:45:54 AM
This country has the money to undertake massive infrastructure projects.
I don't know which country you live in, but in US highway trust fund is predicted to go into red in a few years, federal and state budgets are running significantly deficit, and arguably much more important project of similar value  - replacement of Tappan Zee bridge, a strategic link between upstate and NYC - was done using loans without identified repayment sources.   
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 16, 2020, 03:45:54 AMJust horrible short term planning going on here.
Why, it is pretty much a part of a long term strategy: "last person out of upstate, please turn off the lights before you leave"

I was referring to the entity known as the United States of America lol... not the highway trust fund. It needs to be fixed. I saw a bill that funds 100 percent federal funding for the next two years but I'm not holding my breath it goes anywhere.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: dkblake on October 17, 2020, 10:09:06 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 15, 2020, 05:54:22 PM
Wow, am I the only one who did a double-take at dkblake's username?

dzlsabe
dkblake

Common first initial + common last name = this happens frequently  :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: longhorn on May 27, 2021, 09:45:25 AM
https://graphics.reuters.com/USA-BIDEN/INFRASTRUCTURE-FREEWAYS/qzjpqbzzyvx/

So where does I-81 traffic goes to when the freeway is torn down? How do you go west onto 690? Are the businesses fine with this?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 27, 2021, 11:00:56 AM
Quote from: longhorn on May 27, 2021, 09:45:25 AM
https://graphics.reuters.com/USA-BIDEN/INFRASTRUCTURE-FREEWAYS/qzjpqbzzyvx/

So where does I-81 traffic goes to when the freeway is torn down? How do you go west onto 690? Are the businesses fine with this?
If you take some time to read 810 prior replies in this thread, you may find some of the answers.
One line summary: "it is complicated!"
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: silverback1065 on May 27, 2021, 11:16:07 AM
Here's my opinion on this one. Remove 81 and 690. A city the size of Syracuse never needed them anyway. I support removals in the case if it's for small cities like this because it was over kill to begin with. For larger cities I only support it in cases where it is a spur or piece of an unbuilt larger section, i.e. 375 in Detroit.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on May 27, 2021, 11:22:39 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 27, 2021, 11:00:56 AM
One line summary: "it is complicated!"

:clap:


Quote from: silverback1065 on May 27, 2021, 11:16:07 AM
Here's my opinion on this one. Remove 81 and 690. A city the size of Syracuse never needed them anyway. I support removals in the case if it's for small cities like this because it was over kill to begin with. For larger cities I only support it in cases where it is a spur or piece of an unbuilt larger section, i.e. 375 in Detroit.

I-81 has a lot of through traffic, and there aren't good alternate routes elsewhere in the metro. Try connecting between south and west without using I-81 or I-690.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: silverback1065 on May 27, 2021, 11:33:58 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 27, 2021, 11:22:39 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 27, 2021, 11:00:56 AM
One line summary: "it is complicated!"

:clap:


Quote from: silverback1065 on May 27, 2021, 11:16:07 AM
Here's my opinion on this one. Remove 81 and 690. A city the size of Syracuse never needed them anyway. I support removals in the case if it's for small cities like this because it was over kill to begin with. For larger cities I only support it in cases where it is a spur or piece of an unbuilt larger section, i.e. 375 in Detroit.

I-81 has a lot of through traffic, and there aren't good alternate routes elsewhere in the metro. Try connecting between south and west without using I-81 or I-690.

I don't know the area well so feel free to educate me. seems like changing 481 to 81 and moving any traffic that used 690 onto 90 would work fine. why am I wrong? I'm interested in learning more about this debate.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: dkblake on May 27, 2021, 12:01:52 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on May 27, 2021, 11:16:07 AM
Here's my opinion on this one. Remove 81 and 690. A city the size of Syracuse never needed them anyway.

Eh, I-690 is pretty important for east-west traffic- it has 60-90K AADT in the downtown stretch between Hiawatha Blvd and Thompson Rd. Pretty sure Erie Boulevard/Genesee St can't handle that.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 27, 2021, 12:07:26 PM
If the new boulevard is only four lanes, I'd expect it to be more congested and time-consuming to use. Especially if the new signaled intersections are not properly timed, and if the boulevard is not easier to cross on foot than the existing freeway is. I also doubt enough through traffic will use the bypass to significantly relieve the new boulevard. Let's hope Syracuse doesn't live to regret downgrading this segment of Interstate 81.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on May 27, 2021, 12:15:01 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on May 27, 2021, 11:33:58 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 27, 2021, 11:22:39 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on May 27, 2021, 11:16:07 AM
Here's my opinion on this one. Remove 81 and 690. A city the size of Syracuse never needed them anyway. I support removals in the case if it's for small cities like this because it was over kill to begin with. For larger cities I only support it in cases where it is a spur or piece of an unbuilt larger section, i.e. 375 in Detroit.

I-81 has a lot of through traffic, and there aren't good alternate routes elsewhere in the metro. Try connecting between south and west without using I-81 or I-690.

I don't know the area well so feel free to educate me. seems like changing 481 to 81 and moving any traffic that used 690 onto 90 would work fine. why am I wrong? I'm interested in learning more about this debate.

I'm not aware of any proposals to remove I-690, so I'm keeping it just to the I-81 removal for the purposes of this discussion...

For thru traffic between north and south: taking I-481 adds about 4-5 minutes. It would likely be more at peak times with the increased traffic on I-481.
For thru traffic between south and west: taking I-481 to either I-690 or I-90 adds about 7-8 minutes, again likely more with the increased traffic on I-481.

There is a lot more discussion earlier in the thread with volume data as well as analysis of what specific start and endpoints would be affected the most. Rochester to NYC/Phila is one of those, which is partly why I am firmly against the removal. If this was an issue local to downtown Syracuse it would be one thing, but it's a totally different conversation when it's an integral part of a corridor with significant long-distance traffic.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 12:32:35 PM
Is funding in place to widen all of I-481 to a minimum of 6 through lanes, and reconfigure the north and south I-81 junctions to provide continuity? If they are so serious about demolishing I-81, they need to be equally as serious as accommodating that traffic on other facilities. Don't cheap out and just expecting the existing I-481 and I-81 junctions to adequately handle the new load.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Bobby5280 on May 27, 2021, 01:31:22 PM
At this point, I think it's a foregone conclusion the elevated I-81 freeway South of the I-690 interchange will be removed. The facility is old and badly in need of replacement (or demolition). Even without the socio-political controversy caused when the elevated highway was first built, the idea of building a new replacement elevated highway might be hard to justify.

There has been a lot of out-migration of population in the region over the last 50 years. In recent years the out-migration has been happening state-wide. I lived in Syracuse a couple years when I was a kid and I never forgot how cold and snowy it was in the winter. Before we moved there I loved snow. By the time my family moved I was sick of snow. Many Americans in general are leaving the Northeast for warmer (and less expensive) environments.

Nevetheless, I doubt the removal of I-81 in downtown Syracuse will have the desired effect. If anything, it could accelerate local migration farther out into the suburbs. That would underscore the need to add lanes to existing I-481. Syracuse University is one of the main draws of downtown. SU's long term outlook could get cloudy. There has been a lot of high inflation in college tuition prices, particularly at private universities. The high cost is making such schools increasingly dependent on Internation students. Meanwhile America's demographics are changing with a birth rate now stuck in a sustained decline. That's going to equal fewer and fewer college students in the future (not to mention fewer taxpayers).

If the powers that be in Syracuse want a revitalized and re-connected downtown they have other big problems to handle than simply removing I-81. And even if the plan "works" to encourage new downtown development how will they prevent gentrification that comes along with it? I-81 simply divided neighborhoods. Gentrification forces affected residents completely out of the area.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on May 27, 2021, 02:48:26 PM
Quote from: longhorn on May 27, 2021, 09:45:25 AM
https://graphics.reuters.com/USA-BIDEN/INFRASTRUCTURE-FREEWAYS/qzjpqbzzyvx/

So where does I-81 traffic goes to when the freeway is torn down? How do you go west onto 690? Are the businesses fine with this?
I-481.  I-481 or the boulevard, even though both will likely at least double the time it takes to get from I-81 south of exit 16A to I-690 west of I-81.  Hell no they aren't, DestiNY USA and the hotels in Salina have been the leading advocates for keeping I-81 through the city in some form.

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 12:32:35 PM
Is funding in place to widen all of I-481 to a minimum of 6 through lanes, and reconfigure the north and south I-81 junctions to provide continuity? If they are so serious about demolishing I-81, they need to be equally as serious as accommodating that traffic on other facilities. Don't cheap out and just expecting the existing I-481 and I-81 junctions to adequately handle the new load.
Last I heard, yes on the junctions, no on a general widening.  What widening is there would be on a limited scope within the I-690-Thruway corridor (and wouldn't even be the full length both directions).

Quote from: webny99 on May 27, 2021, 12:15:01 PM
There is a lot more discussion earlier in the thread with volume data as well as analysis of what specific start and endpoints would be affected the most. Rochester to NYC/Phila is one of those, which is partly why I am firmly against the removal. If this was an issue local to downtown Syracuse it would be one thing, but it's a totally different conversation when it's an integral part of a corridor with significant long-distance traffic.
Such is also why I don't like it.  Also the fact that I just don't like business interstate routes.  Going back to the original proposal for a 3di with a state route extension on the non-freeway part would make me happier, and building that western bypass that was previously planned and giving it a 3di number would make me happier still.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 03:33:20 PM
^

A western bypass would certainly address the needs of I-81 North to I-690 West to ultimately I-90 West. If such was in place, then I could see more viability in demolishing the viaduct. But since it currents holds that regional traffic movement, then no.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 27, 2021, 03:36:16 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 03:33:20 PM
^

A western bypass would certainly address the needs of I-81 North to I-690 West to ultimately I-90 West. If such was in place, then I could see more viability in demolishing the viaduct. But since it currents holds that regional traffic movement, then no.
Not demolishing that viaduct is not an option. It passed the point if no return in terms of structural condition.
Questions are what would replace the old structure and when that is going to happen.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 03:38:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 27, 2021, 03:36:16 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 03:33:20 PM
^

A western bypass would certainly address the needs of I-81 North to I-690 West to ultimately I-90 West. If such was in place, then I could see more viability in demolishing the viaduct. But since it currents holds that regional traffic movement, then no.
Not demolishing that viaduct is not an option. It passed the point if no return in terms of structural condition.
Questions are what would replace the old structure and when that is going to happen.
That's what I meant... by saying demolishing I'm meaning fully get rid of, apply their street grid concept, etc. What needs to happen is a proper replacement.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 27, 2021, 03:42:22 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 03:38:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 27, 2021, 03:36:16 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 03:33:20 PM
^

A western bypass would certainly address the needs of I-81 North to I-690 West to ultimately I-90 West. If such was in place, then I could see more viability in demolishing the viaduct. But since it currents holds that regional traffic movement, then no.
Not demolishing that viaduct is not an option. It passed the point if no return in terms of structural condition.
Questions are what would replace the old structure and when that is going to happen.
That's what I meant... by saying demolishing I'm meaning fully get rid of, apply their street grid concept, etc. What needs to happen is a proper replacement.
Nope. Sorry, not gonna happen
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 05:31:09 PM
Yes... I'm fully aware. :poke: I'm stating what needs to happen given the situation... not necessarily what advocates are actually going to push for and get done which is demolition without replacement.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on May 27, 2021, 05:46:15 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 12:32:35 PM
Is funding in place to widen all of I-481 to a minimum of 6 through lanes, and reconfigure the north and south I-81 junctions to provide continuity? If they are so serious about demolishing I-81, they need to be equally as serious as accommodating that traffic on other facilities. Don't cheap out and just expecting the existing I-481 and I-81 junctions to adequately handle the new load.

At a bare minimum, the southern (current) I-81/481 interchange will require enough of a rebuild to deploy two through lanes both northbound and southbound from southward I-81 to the bypass, and the northern cloverleaf will require a SB 81>481 2-lane flyover for the same effect plus an expansion of NB 481>81 to the same two lanes as the southern facility.  And 6 minimum lanes in between as stated above!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on May 27, 2021, 05:54:32 PM
To take a slightly optimistic view, you might be able to get away with the existing four lanes north of I-90. Current I-81 has six lanes on the parallel section and would still serve most of the local traffic.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on May 27, 2021, 07:42:38 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 27, 2021, 05:54:32 PM
To take a slightly optimistic view, you might be able to get away with the existing four lanes north of I-90. Current I-81 has six lanes on the parallel section and would still serve most of the local traffic.

I'd tend to agree; a lot of the 481 traffic is likely shunting over that route from the Turnpike to get to I-690 and downtown -- nevertheless, to accommodate both through and local traffic, the entirety of current 481 south of I-90 needs to be brought out to 6 lanes.  But the flyover/expansion of the current north cloverleaf is also a must-do, regardless of how many lanes it feeds.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on May 27, 2021, 08:08:06 PM
Quote from: sparker on May 27, 2021, 05:46:15 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 12:32:35 PM
Is funding in place to widen all of I-481 to a minimum of 6 through lanes, and reconfigure the north and south I-81 junctions to provide continuity? If they are so serious about demolishing I-81, they need to be equally as serious as accommodating that traffic on other facilities. Don't cheap out and just expecting the existing I-481 and I-81 junctions to adequately handle the new load.

At a bare minimum, the southern (current) I-81/481 interchange will require enough of a rebuild to deploy two through lanes both northbound and southbound from southward I-81 to the bypass, and the northern cloverleaf will require a SB 81>481 2-lane flyover for the same effect plus an expansion of NB 481>81 to the same two lanes as the southern facility.

These are already part of the grid alternative.  I also don't think existing 481 will need 6 lanes south of Genessee St (NY 5/92 for the non-locals).  I do agree a more uniform 6-laning (instead of the currently-proposed auxiliary lanes) between 690 and the Thruway is needed for this alternative to work.

Regarding the "through traffic" that some in this thread have continually railed about, NYSDOT's studies noted that there is not a large volume of such.  Less than 7K a day total, with only about 2-2.5K of that going between the aforementioned 81 South and 90 West.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 08:42:13 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 27, 2021, 08:08:06 PM
with only about 2-2.5K of that going between the aforementioned 81 South and 90 West.
Does that number factor in I-81 to I-690? No one is taking I-81 directly to I-90.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on May 27, 2021, 09:10:06 PM
That's everyone going between 81 south of 481 and 90 west of 690, regardless of whether they're taking 81 directly to 90 or cutting the corner on 690.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on May 27, 2021, 09:23:17 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 27, 2021, 08:08:06 PM
Regarding the "through traffic" that some in this thread have continually railed about, NYSDOT's studies noted that there is not a large volume of such.  Less than 7K a day total, with only about 2-2.5K of that going between the aforementioned 81 South and 90 West.

To the extent that those estimates are even believable (it is certainly much more than that during summer travel season), it is unfair, extremely narrow-minded, and quite frankly, detached from reality to dismiss that as "not much".

This is one of the most integral pieces of interstate in a region that is (a) in the conversation for the crossroads of the state (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20723.msg2244607#msg2244607) and (b) centrally located to and used for travel between much of the East Coast, Ontario, and Quebec, as illustrated by the fact that it is:
(a) part of the fastest all-freeway route between New York City and Toronto, each the largest city in their respective country
(b) part of the fastest all-freeway route between Washington DC and Ottawa, each the capital city in their respective country
(c) part of the fastest all-freeway route between New York City and Buffalo, the two largest population centers in New York state.

But no, not much through traffic. Not much at all. Hardly any, in fact.
[/sarcasm]

Call it railing if you will, but is absolute absurdity, bordering on insanity, not to identify through traffic as a MAJOR, SIGNIFICANT concern here.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 27, 2021, 09:36:24 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 27, 2021, 09:23:17 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 27, 2021, 08:08:06 PM
Regarding the "through traffic" that some in this thread have continually railed about, NYSDOT's studies noted that there is not a large volume of such.  Less than 7K a day total, with only about 2-2.5K of that going between the aforementioned 81 South and 90 West.

To the extent that those estimates are even believable (it is certainly much more than that during summer travel season), it is unfair, extremely narrow-minded, and quite frankly, detached from reality to dismiss that as "not much".

This is one of the most integral pieces of interstate in a region that is (a) in the conversation for the crossroads of the state (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20723.msg2244607#msg2244607) and (b) centrally located to and used for travel between much of the East Coast, Ontario, and Quebec, as illustrated by the fact that it is:
(a) part of the fastest all-freeway route between New York City and Toronto, each the largest city in their respective country
(b) part of the fastest all-freeway route between Washington DC and Ottawa, each the capital city in their respective country
(c) part of the fastest all-freeway route between New York City and Buffalo, the two largest population centers in New York state.

But no, not much through traffic. Not much at all. Hardly any, in fact.
[/sarcasm]

Call it railing if you will, but is absolute absurdity, bordering on insanity, not to identify through traffic as a MAJOR, SIGNIFICANT concern here.
Those who need to go from NYC to Toronto are generally flying. Same with NYC to Buffalo. DC to Ottawa is likely mostly documents.
Truck traffic is still there, of course, but I don't expect high volume goods, like coal sand or wheat to follow those paths. Oh, and railroad doesn't go along that viaduct.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on May 27, 2021, 10:11:19 PM
It's worth noting that NYSDOT's policies for collecting routine AADT data are designed to specifically exclude seasonal/weekend/tourist traffic as much as possible (only weekday hours excluding Friday afternoon are factored into the AADT numbers, for example, and data from certain days around holidays is not accepted), so such traffic would only be included if the specifically sought it out to factor in.

Speaking from personal experience, PA and ON plates are quite common west of Syracuse, and rare to non-existent east of Syracuse (where the main out of state plates are from New England, at least until I-87, when NJ and QC become common).  A lot of traffic drops at exit 39, too.  I would expect that I-81/I-690/I-90 is the main route for PA to/from the Finger Lakes and Lake Ontario.

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 10:12:13 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 27, 2021, 09:36:24 PM
Those who need to go from NYC to Toronto are generally flying. Same with NYC to Buffalo. DC to Ottawa is likely mostly documents.
That's a bold assumption to make.

It's not like New York to California. All of these are easily within a days drive.

The concern of through traffic is a legitimate one that should not be dismissed. And I wouldn't be surprised if the figures cited in the NYSDOT study were skewed... It seems reasonable to assume at least 10,000 AADT making that north to west movement, if not more.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 27, 2021, 10:13:12 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 27, 2021, 10:11:19 PM
It's worth noting that NYSDOT's policies for collecting routine AADT data are designed to specifically exclude seasonal/weekend/tourist traffic as much as possible (only weekday hours excluding Friday afternoon are factored into the AADT numbers, for example, and data from certain days around holidays is not accepted), so such traffic would only be included if the specifically sought it out to factor in.
So then it's skewed. Plain and simple.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on May 28, 2021, 12:22:10 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 27, 2021, 09:23:17 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 27, 2021, 08:08:06 PM
Regarding the "through traffic" that some in this thread have continually railed about, NYSDOT's studies noted that there is not a large volume of such.  Less than 7K a day total, with only about 2-2.5K of that going between the aforementioned 81 South and 90 West.

To the extent that those estimates are even believable (it is certainly much more than that during summer travel season), it is unfair, extremely narrow-minded, and quite frankly, detached from reality to dismiss that as "not much".

This is one of the most integral pieces of interstate in a region that is (a) in the conversation for the crossroads of the state (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20723.msg2244607#msg2244607) and (b) centrally located to and used for travel between much of the East Coast, Ontario, and Quebec, as illustrated by the fact that it is:
(a) part of the fastest all-freeway route between New York City and Toronto, each the largest city in their respective country
(b) part of the fastest all-freeway route between Washington DC and Ottawa, each the capital city in their respective country
(c) part of the fastest all-freeway route between New York City and Buffalo, the two largest population centers in New York state.

But no, not much through traffic. Not much at all. Hardly any, in fact.
[/sarcasm]

Call it railing if you will, but is absolute absurdity, bordering on insanity, not to identify through traffic as a MAJOR, SIGNIFICANT concern here.

In the context of the ~80K that the viaduct carries just south of 690, yes it is "not much" compared to the overall.  Even if the ~7K figure is lowballed (which, given the events of the past 18 months, it's probably high at the moment), you're still taking a small percentage of overall traffic...traffic on the viaduct is still overwhelmingly local in nature.  But you and Val  continue to make it out to be much larger than the numbers show it actually is.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on May 28, 2021, 12:42:00 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on May 27, 2021, 11:16:07 AM
Here's my opinion on this one. Remove 81 and 690. A city the size of Syracuse never needed them anyway. I support removals in the case if it's for small cities like this because it was over kill to begin with. For larger cities I only support it in cases where it is a spur or piece of an unbuilt larger section, i.e. 375 in Detroit.
It was at 220,000 and growing when the decisions were made. It's now 2/3 the size. I think it did need them at the time, and while it may or may not now, it should at least have competent arterials into downtown with limited interruption.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 28, 2021, 07:35:00 AM
Quote from: froggie on May 28, 2021, 12:22:10 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 27, 2021, 09:23:17 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 27, 2021, 08:08:06 PM
Regarding the "through traffic" that some in this thread have continually railed about, NYSDOT's studies noted that there is not a large volume of such.  Less than 7K a day total, with only about 2-2.5K of that going between the aforementioned 81 South and 90 West.

To the extent that those estimates are even believable (it is certainly much more than that during summer travel season), it is unfair, extremely narrow-minded, and quite frankly, detached from reality to dismiss that as "not much".

This is one of the most integral pieces of interstate in a region that is (a) in the conversation for the crossroads of the state (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20723.msg2244607#msg2244607) and (b) centrally located to and used for travel between much of the East Coast, Ontario, and Quebec, as illustrated by the fact that it is:
(a) part of the fastest all-freeway route between New York City and Toronto, each the largest city in their respective country
(b) part of the fastest all-freeway route between Washington DC and Ottawa, each the capital city in their respective country
(c) part of the fastest all-freeway route between New York City and Buffalo, the two largest population centers in New York state.

But no, not much through traffic. Not much at all. Hardly any, in fact.
[/sarcasm]

Call it railing if you will, but is absolute absurdity, bordering on insanity, not to identify through traffic as a MAJOR, SIGNIFICANT concern here.

In the context of the ~80K that the viaduct carries just south of 690, yes it is "not much" compared to the overall.  Even if the ~7K figure is lowballed (which, given the events of the past 18 months, it's probably high at the moment), you're still taking a small percentage of overall traffic...traffic on the viaduct is still overwhelmingly local in nature.  But you and Val  continue to make it out to be much larger than the numbers show it actually is.
Have to agree here.  The three movements he bolded really aren't that significant.  There was a movement back in the early 2000s to have DOTs focus on the capital-to-capital corridor and it fizzled due to lack of demand, just as one example.  NYC to Toronto and NYC to Buffalo just don't cut the mustard compared even to NYC to Albany.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: dkblake on May 28, 2021, 09:37:21 AM
Quote from: Alps on May 28, 2021, 12:42:00 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on May 27, 2021, 11:16:07 AM
Here's my opinion on this one. Remove 81 and 690. A city the size of Syracuse never needed them anyway. I support removals in the case if it's for small cities like this because it was over kill to begin with. For larger cities I only support it in cases where it is a spur or piece of an unbuilt larger section, i.e. 375 in Detroit.
It was at 220,000 and growing when the decisions were made. It's now 2/3 the size. I think it did need them at the time, and while it may or may not now, it should at least have competent arterials into downtown with limited interruption.

Exactly. Also to add onto this, the population of Onondaga County is about the same between 1960 and now- obviously that's below average "growth," but there are as many people around Syracuse now as there were then. One reason that people moved out of the Syracuse city limits (and many other cities, of course) is that the new interstate spur routes facilitated commuting from the suburbs. I-690 allows you to live in Fayetteville/Manlius/DeWitt and commute downtown, for example. So arguments using only the actual city population of a Northeastern city with a relatively small area and a spur route that doesn't stay strictly within city limits seem a little silly.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 28, 2021, 02:07:19 PM
Something something tunnel
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 28, 2021, 03:11:57 PM
A tunnel would have been too expensive, and likely would have had insufficient traffic demand to justify building it in the Interstate 81 corridor. You would be more likely to see a proposed tunnel to be built in, say, New York or Los Angeles (and even in those places, its construction likelihood would be very iffy). I personally would have preferred the viaduct to be reconstructed as a viaduct, with safety and design improvements (and likely better aesthetics). However, since the state's DOT has settled on converting the viaduct into a boulevard, that is what is going to be constructed.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on May 28, 2021, 07:45:43 PM
For some reason other countries can build tunnels left and right but in America it's always too expensive.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on May 28, 2021, 08:59:44 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 28, 2021, 07:35:00 AM
Quote from: froggie on May 28, 2021, 12:22:10 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 27, 2021, 09:23:17 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 27, 2021, 08:08:06 PM
Regarding the "through traffic" that some in this thread have continually railed about, NYSDOT's studies noted that there is not a large volume of such.  Less than 7K a day total, with only about 2-2.5K of that going between the aforementioned 81 South and 90 West.

To the extent that those estimates are even believable (it is certainly much more than that during summer travel season), it is unfair, extremely narrow-minded, and quite frankly, detached from reality to dismiss that as "not much".

This is one of the most integral pieces of interstate in a region that is (a) in the conversation for the crossroads of the state (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20723.msg2244607#msg2244607) and (b) centrally located to and used for travel between much of the East Coast, Ontario, and Quebec, as illustrated by the fact that it is:
(a) part of the fastest all-freeway route between New York City and Toronto, each the largest city in their respective country
(b) part of the fastest all-freeway route between Washington DC and Ottawa, each the capital city in their respective country
(c) part of the fastest all-freeway route between New York City and Buffalo, the two largest population centers in New York state.

But no, not much through traffic. Not much at all. Hardly any, in fact.
[/sarcasm]

Call it railing if you will, but is absolute absurdity, bordering on insanity, not to identify through traffic as a MAJOR, SIGNIFICANT concern here.

In the context of the ~80K that the viaduct carries just south of 690, yes it is "not much" compared to the overall.  Even if the ~7K figure is lowballed (which, given the events of the past 18 months, it's probably high at the moment), you're still taking a small percentage of overall traffic...traffic on the viaduct is still overwhelmingly local in nature.  But you and Val  continue to make it out to be much larger than the numbers show it actually is.
Have to agree here.  The three movements he bolded really aren't that significant.  There was a movement back in the early 2000s to have DOTs focus on the capital-to-capital corridor and it fizzled due to lack of demand, just as one example.  NYC to Toronto and NYC to Buffalo just don't cut the mustard compared even to NYC to Albany.
Probably because we're the ones with ties to Rochester who would lose out.  I've gotten used to being able to take interstates exclusively most everywhere without going out of the way (such is not possible for someone living in Vermont, obviously, and indeed Vermont and Rhode Island are the only states I can't get to on the direct route on exclusively interstates outside of the "last mile" connections).  I can also see from the traffic on the Thruway it's it's obviously not a negligible movement, at least on tourist weekends.  Like I said, due to how NYSDOT's traffic count program works, such traffic would not be counted unless such was specifically requested when studying this, as the standard three year cycle counts are designed to specifically exclude such (I should know; I was doing R1's volume count processing for several months after I was first hired, and then again for a couple months a couple years later when the person who does it had an extended absence).  There are a TON of PA plates west of Syracuse, nearly none east, and I doubt they're all coming from Erie to go vacation in Syracuse after the long weekend is over.

And yes, losing the ability to get everywhere by interstate is something I'm not looking forward to losing if/when I move back to Rochester.  It's bad enough the connection between Rochester and I-95 around DC is mostly non-interstate.  We don't need to make this problem worse.  As currently proposed, the I-81 removal would single-handedly make Rochester like Buffalo in terms of connectivity; north would have to leave the interstate system proper to drive on a business route (read: fake interstate), and south to Philly/NYC would have to either take the boulevard or go out of the way (south to other places already has to deal with non-interstate US 15).  Why do Rochester and Buffalo have such bad north-south connectivity?  North makes sense due to the lake, but why south too?

This move also screws over people living in the metro?  Live in Baldwinsville, Salina, or Camillus?  Prepare to lose your freeway access to/from the south!  Of course, those areas never had proper freeway access to/from the north, and Liverpool never had proper non-Thruway access to anywhere.  Travel around Syracuse would seem to suck for everywhere except DeWitt, even before the removal happens.

All this to save $300 million (peanuts compared to the overall cost of the project) and further the anti-freeway agenda.

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 29, 2021, 10:15:47 AM
Those extra minutes going out to current I-481 are just going to be intolerable or impossible, eh?  It's really not a total loss of interstate access.

I don't know how enthused I am about losing the viaduct and I know getting out of downtown is going to be a mess -- NYSDOT is pushing the new connections at Crouse and Irving, while diverting attention from the poorer connection to the south -- but saying that you can't use interstates any longer from Rochester is an exaggeration.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on May 29, 2021, 09:32:13 PM
Well, let's look at the times.  I-690 west of I-81 to I-81 south of I-481 (covers both Syracuse suburbs as well as Finger Lakes traffic): 4 minutes/4.2 miles now, 12 minutes/12.3 miles over current I-481.  More than double.  Ridiculous.  Heck, even if you wanted to take the boulevard, the last plan I saw didn't have a direct interchange with I-690.

Want to look at from the Thruway west of exit 39?  15 minutes/14.2 miles now, 22 minutes/22.3 miles for I-690 to I-481, and 23 minutes/24.9 miles (plus THREE more lines each way on your E-ZPass statement - so a round trip from Rochester would go from 4 lines to 10).

In any case, just looking at the route on a map shows how far out of the way it is.  Going today, someone would say you were crazy to take I-481 over I-81 unless there was a crash or something.  And yet, we are going to be forcing people to go that way.  Even for the route of I-81 itself, it will go from the smooth, natural curves of its current route to a jagged, harsh route that on a map will reveal the truth - that I-81 was shoved onto another road to remove part of it.  Even heading from the west to the north - the freeway will still be there, but the interstate won't, not unless the state changed it's mind again.  A business route will be there instead of a real interstate (sorry, but if it's not colored blue on TM, it's not an interstate).  The interstate lines on the map will no longer work as a system there.  At all.  As someone who loves the systems-based planning that was done in the past and hates the corridor-based and project-based planning that's done now, it's a bitter pill to swallow (in fact, I would go so far as to say that Nixon's block-granting of the system was the worst thing that ever happened to the interstates in the whole history of the system).

And yes, I am the type of person who chooses where to live based on how well you can get to other places on the interstate and freeway systems (the parts of the Thruway along the former ticket system don't count).  Let's just say that Syracuse already doesn't have many places that aren't missing a major connection somewhere, and it's only going to get worse.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 30, 2021, 12:02:39 AM
An extra 8 minutes.  Yep, an inconvenience, but at least it's all freeway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 30, 2021, 02:32:08 AM
Might as well just route I-390 -> I-86 at this point with that added time. Avoids the Thruway too.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 30, 2021, 06:01:27 AM
Also makes me wonder how long it will take to snake through Syracuse on new BL I-81.  I mean, Crouse and Irving send you up the Hill, if you stay on I-690.  Otherwise, you get off somewhere to get through that Oswego Blvd mess to eventually turn right on Almond.  That's got to take at least as long as the runaround on I-481.  I'd rather keep moving, at least.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on May 30, 2021, 12:51:58 PM
Honestly, stuff like this is why I agree with what one person said in a different thread, that we need to actually act as advocates and write op-eds, contact DOTs, and contact elected officials, not just complain on a forum that nobody in power reads.  Of course, as a NYSDOT employee, I can't be part of that, but maybe it's a project someone who doesn't have ethics constraints could take on.

Quote from: Rothman on May 30, 2021, 12:02:39 AM
An extra 8 minutes.  Yep, an inconvenience, but at least it's all freeway.
It will probably be felt the most by people who live in the western suburbs.  Get close to exit 16A, think you're almost home, only to realize that it will take twice as long as it used to.

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 30, 2021, 02:32:08 AM
Might as well just route I-390 -> I-86 at this point with that added time. Avoids the Thruway too.
Still longer, at least from most (all?) points around Rochester, believe it or not.  And if one is being really strict about traveling along the interstate system, NY 17 probably won't be formally designated I-86 any time soon, even west of Binghamton.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 30, 2021, 12:55:21 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 30, 2021, 12:51:58 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 30, 2021, 02:32:08 AM
Might as well just route I-390 -> I-86 at this point with that added time. Avoids the Thruway too.
Still longer, at least from most (all?) points around Rochester, believe it or not.  And if one is being really strict about traveling along the interstate system, NY 17 probably won't be formally designated I-86 any time soon, even west of Binghamton.
I know, but now it will only be a few minutes. Over a long distance, it's probably a wash. Plus, wouldn't I-86 simply carry less traffic overall, making it a more pleasant routing than the toll road?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 30, 2021, 01:37:49 PM
I-86 would also be more appealing if Region 9 would pave it in Tioga County...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on June 03, 2021, 07:47:42 AM
Me coming back to this thread a week later:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_v67RWmRE8
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on June 03, 2021, 07:52:08 AM
Quote from: froggie on May 28, 2021, 12:22:10 AM
In the context of the ~80K that the viaduct carries just south of 690, yes it is "not much" compared to the overall.  Even if the ~7K figure is lowballed (which, given the events of the past 18 months, it's probably high at the moment), you're still taking a small percentage of overall traffic...traffic on the viaduct is still overwhelmingly local in nature.

I don't recall ever saying that it's high in percentage terms - of course it won't be that high in a CBD during commuter hours - only that's it's very significant nonetheless. My issue with dismissing through traffic is that the entire purpose of the interstate system is to serve medium- and long-distance traffic, which the I-81 viaduct certainly does — and for a large area of both the Northeastern US and Canada, not to mention Syracuse's own suburbs (I would consider anyone not coming to/from the immediate downtown area to be "through traffic" , and that would include plenty of suburb-to-suburb commutes).


Quote from: vdeane on May 28, 2021, 08:59:44 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 28, 2021, 12:22:10 AM
... But you and Val  continue to make it out to be much larger than the numbers show it actually is.
Probably because we're the ones with ties to Rochester who would lose out.

Certainly, due in no small part to the fact that I actually use it often for long-distance travel - enough times that I've lost count, but I know it's well over a dozen, and for a wide range of trips — family in the NYC area, friends in the Philly area, last summer's trip to the ocean, and last weekend's trip to the Catskills, just to name a few.


Quote from: vdeane on May 28, 2021, 08:59:44 PM
  I can also see from the traffic on the Thruway it's it's obviously not a negligible movement, at least on tourist weekends.  ...  There are a TON of PA plates west of Syracuse, nearly none east, and I doubt they're all coming from Erie to go vacation in Syracuse after the long weekend is over.

Yeah, there's a very significant increase in traffic west of Exit 39, and it's not all coming to/from Syracuse.   This sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9733207,-77.1299441,3a,30y,92h,89.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRCMS-2nzaRO-JHk2zXIDfA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) certainly wouldn't exist if it was a negligible movement.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on June 03, 2021, 07:54:22 AM
Quote from: Rothman on May 28, 2021, 07:35:00 AM
Have to agree here.  The three movements he bolded really aren't that significant.  ... NYC to Toronto and NYC to Buffalo just don't cut the mustard compared even to NYC to Albany.

You think? :meh: Of course those movements don't clear the NYC/Albany bar, but they are still significant nonetheless. I picked those three because of their size/importance and to illustrate Syracuse's centrality to the entire Northeastern US and adjacent parts of Canada.

But it's not like that's it... in addition to NYC, DC, Buffalo, Toronto, and Ottawa, there's also Rochester, Binghamton, Scranton, Harrisburg, Allentown, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and most of Ontario and Quebec once the border reopens. As vdeane mentioned, you'd be surprised by the number of Pennsylvania plates (and Ontario/Quebec, prior to Covid) on I-81 during summer travel season.


Quote from: Rothman on May 28, 2021, 07:35:00 AM
There was a movement back in the early 2000s to have DOTs focus on the capital-to-capital corridor and it fizzled due to lack of demand, just as one example.

Probably because we already have such a corridor. It goes right through the heart of downtown Syracuse. I think we might even have a thread about it somewhere...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on June 03, 2021, 08:19:42 AM
Quote from: webny99 on June 03, 2021, 07:52:08 AM
Quote from: froggie on May 28, 2021, 12:22:10 AM
In the context of the ~80K that the viaduct carries just south of 690, yes it is "not much" compared to the overall.  Even if the ~7K figure is lowballed (which, given the events of the past 18 months, it's probably high at the moment), you're still taking a small percentage of overall traffic...traffic on the viaduct is still overwhelmingly local in nature.

I don't recall ever saying that it's high in percentage terms - of course it won't be that high in a CBD during commuter hours - only that's it's very significant nonetheless. My issue with dismissing through traffic is that the entire purpose of the interstate system is to serve medium- and long-distance traffic, which the I-81 viaduct certainly does — and for a large area of both the Northeastern US and Canada, not to mention Syracuse's own suburbs (I would consider anyone not coming to/from the immediate downtown area to be "through traffic" , and that would include plenty of suburb-to-suburb commutes).


Quote from: vdeane on May 28, 2021, 08:59:44 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 28, 2021, 12:22:10 AM
... But you and Val  continue to make it out to be much larger than the numbers show it actually is.
Probably because we're the ones with ties to Rochester who would lose out.

Certainly, due in no small part to the fact that I actually use it often for long-distance travel - enough times that I've lost count, but I know it's well over a dozen, and for a wide range of trips — family in the NYC area, friends in the Philly area, last summer's trip to the ocean, and last weekend's trip to the Catskills, just to name a few.


Quote from: vdeane on May 28, 2021, 08:59:44 PM
  I can also see from the traffic on the Thruway it's it's obviously not a negligible movement, at least on tourist weekends.  ...  There are a TON of PA plates west of Syracuse, nearly none east, and I doubt they're all coming from Erie to go vacation in Syracuse after the long weekend is over.

Yeah, there's a very significant increase in traffic west of Exit 39, and it's not all coming to/from Syracuse.   This sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9733207,-77.1299441,3a,30y,92h,89.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRCMS-2nzaRO-JHk2zXIDfA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) certainly wouldn't exist if it was a negligible movement.

Long story short - whenever you change something, there are those who gain and those who lose. Very few cases when everyone wins or stays even, no loosers.
In this particular case, we talk about loss for those who travel long haul through Syracuse compared to those who would lose if the highway is rebuilt. And from that perspective, the number of those in transit is important as their combined loss (5 miles/5 minutes per vehicle, right?) has to be weighed against the expected win for the city.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on June 03, 2021, 01:29:26 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 03, 2021, 08:19:42 AM
In this particular case, we talk about loss for those who travel long haul through Syracuse compared to those who would lose if the highway is rebuilt. And from that perspective, the number of those in transit is important as their combined loss (5 miles/5 minutes per vehicle, right?) has to be weighed against the expected win for the city.

Who exactly would lose if the highway is rebuilt (besides the state, from a financial perspective)?

The expected win for the city is just that - expected. Far from certain, and certainly not universally expected. Personally, I don't really see any benefits to the removal aside from the cost savings. It remains to be seen whether the supposed better connectivity will actually materialize, and even then, it's not exactly the type of dense residential/small commericial area that would benefit most from a more walkable road network.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on June 03, 2021, 02:31:05 PM
Quote from: webny99 on June 03, 2021, 01:29:26 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 03, 2021, 08:19:42 AM
In this particular case, we talk about loss for those who travel long haul through Syracuse compared to those who would lose if the highway is rebuilt. And from that perspective, the number of those in transit is important as their combined loss (5 miles/5 minutes per vehicle, right?) has to be weighed against the expected win for the city.

Who exactly would lose if the highway is rebuilt (besides the state, from a financial perspective)?

The expected win for the city is just that - expected. Far from certain, and certainly not universally expected. Personally, I don't really see any benefits to the removal aside from the cost savings. It remains to be seen whether the supposed better connectivity will actually materialize, and even then, it's not exactly the type of dense residential/small commericial area that would benefit most from a more walkable road network.
Well, for one - I lived a few years with windows facing a highly travelled 4-lane divided highway. THat wasn't fun, and I can see those within half a mile from the road to benefit just from lower noise.
Money is another issue. You can compare expected construction cost savings with expected extra travel and see how that adds up.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on June 03, 2021, 07:44:09 PM
A difference of a couple hundred million dollars in a multi-billion dollar project... the benefits of a limited access highway remaining will easily outweigh the additional cost... especially considering I-481 is going to have to eventually be widened to 6 lanes to accommodate the additional traffic, and the lack of redundancy in the system anymore.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on June 03, 2021, 08:31:40 PM
Plus properties on the corridor will still be on a four-lane divided highway, it would just now be at-grade and landscaped with far more traffic dealing with the traffic lights.  IMO "community grid" isn't really a good name, as when I hear it I think of something like US 87 through Amarillo, not what I-81 will become.

And great point on the cost.  I think the last time the media was talking about alternatives, the price difference was around $300 million in a project that would cost a minimum of $2 billion, or about 15% (actually, the "community grid" was quoted as costing MORE than the viaduct would have when alternatives were discussed a few years before, so that's some massive price inflation!).  IMO not really worth the loss in connectivity for the area's freeway system and the state's interstate system as a whole.

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on June 03, 2021, 11:06:33 PM
$300m is the cost of a major project.  It is little wonder NYSDOT went with the cheaper option, especially when the LOS projections were deemed acceptable.

But, let us continue to bemoan the decision.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on June 04, 2021, 12:45:31 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 03, 2021, 11:06:33 PM
$300m is the cost of a major project.  It is little wonder NYSDOT went with the cheaper option, especially when the LOS projections were deemed acceptable.

But, let us continue to bemoan the decision.
Right because cheaper equates to better. That's what the US is known for, building cheap infrastructure and small ambitions.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: yakra on June 04, 2021, 01:19:36 AM
double deck that shi'

*runs*
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on June 04, 2021, 06:51:32 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 04, 2021, 12:45:31 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 03, 2021, 11:06:33 PM
$300m is the cost of a major project.  It is little wonder NYSDOT went with the cheaper option, especially when the LOS projections were deemed acceptable.

But, let us continue to bemoan the decision.
Right because cheaper equates to better. That's what the US is known for, building cheap infrastructure and small ambitions.
Like I said, carry on.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on June 04, 2021, 06:52:09 AM
Quote from: yakra on June 04, 2021, 01:19:36 AM
double deck that shi'

*runs*
Ha!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on June 04, 2021, 07:20:08 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 04, 2021, 12:45:31 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 03, 2021, 11:06:33 PM
$300m is the cost of a major project.  It is little wonder NYSDOT went with the cheaper option, especially when the LOS projections were deemed acceptable.

But, let us continue to bemoan the decision.
Right because cheaper equates to better. That's what the US is known for, building cheap infrastructure and small ambitions.
Also for brute forcing dumb ideas.
If there is a take-home message in this thread, that would be about adding southwestern highway bypass as a desirable addition.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on June 04, 2021, 08:47:52 PM
After a few dozen folks die in ambulances because they can't get to the hospital as they traverse the community grid, or pedestrians trying to cross a six lane boulevard get hit, or game attendance at the Carrier Dome goes down because it takes four hours to get home and spectators lose interest, they'll realize the community grid probably wasn't the best decision for the area.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on June 05, 2021, 12:32:13 AM
^ Those are rather inflated numbers, especially your Carrier Dome analogy which was poorly considered.  Dome/SU traffic already has to traverse several city blocks today to get to/from an Interstate.  Getting to I-81 in either direction requires going up to Harrison, which is close to a mile of backtracking for 81 South from the Carrier Dome.  If anything, the Community Grid option will make it EASIER to get between 81 South and SU/Carrier Dome/the hospitals because it will add an access point at Van Buren.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on June 05, 2021, 01:48:47 AM
If any of the existing grade separated portion north of Harrison is eliminated, then you're adding at-grade intersections.

I agree though, I don't think it's going to impact any local travel to a large extent, it's more of a regional / through impact if anything.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on June 05, 2021, 10:44:26 AM


Quote from: machias on June 04, 2021, 08:47:52 PM
After a few dozen folks die in ambulances because they can't get to the hospital as they traverse the community grid, or pedestrians trying to cross a six lane boulevard get hit, or game attendance at the Carrier Dome goes down because it takes four hours to get home and spectators lose interest, they'll realize the community grid probably wasn't the best decision for the area.

Heh.  What a jeremiad.

Ambulances to Upstate already use the surface streets more than you'd think and pedestrians already cross Almond with little issue.

SMTC is currently conducting a study of traffic associated with Dome events.

In short, if these are the concerns you have, they're actually near the bottom of the list.  Others mentioned in this thread are more valid.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on July 07, 2021, 06:50:26 PM
It looks like a new Skyway Option is presented:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/future-of-81/representatives-from-salina-syracuse-unveil-grid-skyway-proposal-for-i-81/?fbclid=IwAR1okmvBqdcgs0wYYnhkNaOA4j41KwhcCKEfCotN-zBMj2TUHoSPEAkn__o
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on July 07, 2021, 07:58:59 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 07, 2021, 06:50:26 PM
It looks like a new Skyway Option is presented:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/future-of-81/representatives-from-salina-syracuse-unveil-grid-skyway-proposal-for-i-81/?fbclid=IwAR1okmvBqdcgs0wYYnhkNaOA4j41KwhcCKEfCotN-zBMj2TUHoSPEAkn__o
The way Buttigieg praised highway removal two weeks ago, this is a non-starter.
While Secretary didn't focus on minor details, like schedules and funding, he was very clear in his overall vision:
Quoteyou can certainly think of this as restorative or reparative

Links:
https://www.syracuse.com/opinion/2021/07/buttigieg-visit-confirms-i-81-as-federal-priority-editorial-board-opinion.html
https://www.syracuse.com/state/2021/06/in-syracusecom-interview-buttigieg-discusses-race-reparations-and-i-81-video.html
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2021/06/pete-buttigieg-in-syracuse-i-81-construction-jobs-will-go-to-local-residents.html

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: D-Dey65 on July 07, 2021, 08:40:10 PM
Quote from: kalvado on July 07, 2021, 07:58:59 PM

The way Buttigieg praised highway removal two weeks ago, this is a non-starter.
While Secretary didn't focus on minor details, like schedules and funding, he was very clear in his overall vision:
Quoteyou can certainly think of this as restorative or reparative

Links:
https://www.syracuse.com/opinion/2021/07/buttigieg-visit-confirms-i-81-as-federal-priority-editorial-board-opinion.html
https://www.syracuse.com/state/2021/06/in-syracusecom-interview-buttigieg-discusses-race-reparations-and-i-81-video.html
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2021/06/pete-buttigieg-in-syracuse-i-81-construction-jobs-will-go-to-local-residents.html
It almost makes me sympathetic to Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer for standing in the way of this, if the ad I saw on TV this afternoon is to be believed.



Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 07, 2021, 09:53:13 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 07, 2021, 06:50:26 PM
It looks like a new Skyway Option is presented:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/future-of-81/representatives-from-salina-syracuse-unveil-grid-skyway-proposal-for-i-81/?fbclid=IwAR1okmvBqdcgs0wYYnhkNaOA4j41KwhcCKEfCotN-zBMj2TUHoSPEAkn__o
Pfft.  Community Grid is hurtling towards ROD as is.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on July 07, 2021, 10:31:55 PM
I'm pretty certain that a "skyway" option was presented before and dismissed as too expensive. Sure, you can have a "community grid" underneath it, but it didn't meet all of the objectives of the project and/or cost.

Note that the "skyway" was proposed by people who don't live in Syracuse.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 06:49:58 AM
To be fair, I don't think there's any consensus amongst the public in Syracuse regarding what they want done.  The angry are determined to stay angry at this point, no matter what their position is.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on July 08, 2021, 09:32:34 AM
Quote from: seicer on July 07, 2021, 10:31:55 PM
I'm pretty certain that a "skyway" option was presented before and dismissed as too expensive. Sure, you can have a "community grid" underneath it, but it didn't meet all of the objectives of the project and/or cost.

Note that the "skyway" was proposed by people who don't live in Syracuse.
While "expensive" is certainly a very valid argument of a show-stopper grade, I don't see why "who don't live in Syracuse" deserve even a mention.
We're talking about a part of the National System of Interstate and Defense Highways, which is a major commuter and regional route. So there are stakeholders besides those living in the city proper. That includes businesses in the city, such as Destiny mall, and many of those living outside of the city limit - such as suburban commuters; regional truckers - e.g. those going to Rochester; out-of-state soldiers in Fort Drum, and even out-of-country long haul truckers from Canada.
Love it or hate it, compromise is the name of the game. Too bad there is little wiggle room - or right of way; geology of the area doesn't help; so outcome is less than desired for many people. but disregarding their opinion based on just residence is a bad idea.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on July 08, 2021, 09:34:20 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 06:49:58 AM
To be fair, I don't think there's any consensus amongst the public in Syracuse regarding what they want done.  The angry are determined to stay angry at this point, no matter what their position is.

Much like politics in general in this nation.

Regarding this Grid + Skyway proposal, I fail to see how it's any different than the "Viaduct Replacement" option...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on July 08, 2021, 09:44:08 AM
Quote from: froggie on July 08, 2021, 09:34:20 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 06:49:58 AM
To be fair, I don't think there's any consensus amongst the public in Syracuse regarding what they want done.  The angry are determined to stay angry at this point, no matter what their position is.

Much like politics in general in this nation.

Regarding this Grid + Skyway proposal, I fail to see how it's any different than the "Viaduct Replacement" option...
Unlike many political issues, where some middle ground could - and should - be found, Syracuse is pretty much "A or B" type of question. Either there is a highway, or there is no highway, few options in between.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 10:26:25 AM
The thing is that there is no question or real debate any longer.  The grid will be implemented.  The people that want to replace the viaduct will voice their comments at the scheduled hearing(s), they will be responded to in a way that will meet FHWA's requirements and the grid will move forward.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on July 08, 2021, 10:39:18 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 10:26:25 AM
The thing is that there is no question or real debate any longer.  The grid will be implemented.  The people that want to replace the viaduct will voice their comments at the scheduled hearing(s), they will be responded to in a way that will meet FHWA's requirements and the grid will move forward.
Or they will drag the project long enough for administration and priorities to change, another study of environmental effects of the previous study will be ordered, and viaduct will stay another few years decades until it collapses. [ /cynical]
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 11:13:48 AM
Quote from: kalvado on July 08, 2021, 10:39:18 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 10:26:25 AM
The thing is that there is no question or real debate any longer.  The grid will be implemented.  The people that want to replace the viaduct will voice their comments at the scheduled hearing(s), they will be responded to in a way that will meet FHWA's requirements and the grid will move forward.
Or they will drag the project long enough for administration and priorities to change, another study of environmental effects of the previous study will be ordered, and viaduct will stay another few years decades until it collapses. [ /cynical]
At this point, I don't think so -- at least in terms of getting to the ROD.  Now, after that point is a different matter, given the complexities of the work being done and both state and consultant forces crying that they're overstretched as is.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on July 08, 2021, 12:58:27 PM
Let's hope they'll at least ditch the "business loop 81" idea and go back to having a proper 3di for the portion that will remain a freeway.  I'm really not liking the option of having to briefly leave the interstate system to take a "business loop" between Rochester and the 1000 Islands (or, for that matter, the other transportation impacts this has on Rochester... Rochester has enough areas where taking an all-interstate route will take you out of your way, we don't need to add more!).

(personal opinion)

Quote from: froggie on July 08, 2021, 09:34:20 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 06:49:58 AM
To be fair, I don't think there's any consensus amongst the public in Syracuse regarding what they want done.  The angry are determined to stay angry at this point, no matter what their position is.

Much like politics in general in this nation.

Regarding this Grid + Skyway proposal, I fail to see how it's any different than the "Viaduct Replacement" option...

It's higher in the air, which supposedly makes it less of a barrier.  Of course, that also increases the cost and makes connecting to I-690 more interesting.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 01:03:34 PM
Just take I-481 to the Thruway.  I mean, I am probably for rebuilding the viaduct when it comes down to it, but given realities about the grid, the minutes longer it will take makes it the best option.

I do wonder about this idea of removing freeways and if people have thought through the traffic implications fully -- just on the surface roads.  Syracuse isn't NYC, but looking at how long it takes to drive from my daughter's apartment in Brooklyn to a spot in Queens seven miles away under the best traffic conditions does cause some pause.  And, given the convoluted route BL-81 will take through the city -- with the offset I-690 connection at Crouse and Irving (i.e., having to go up the shoulder of the Hill to get to I-690)  -- I can easily imagine frustration for those that stubbornly decide to go through the grid rather than around.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on July 08, 2021, 03:23:47 PM
Quote from: kalvado on July 08, 2021, 10:39:18 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 10:26:25 AM
The thing is that there is no question or real debate any longer.  The grid will be implemented.  The people that want to replace the viaduct will voice their comments at the scheduled hearing(s), they will be responded to in a way that will meet FHWA's requirements and the grid will move forward.
Or they will drag the project long enough for administration and priorities to change, another study of environmental effects of the previous study will be ordered, and viaduct will stay another few years decades until it collapses. [ /cynical]
I hope so. If the tunnel can't be build the skyway is a great alternative to the viaduct.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on July 08, 2021, 04:46:07 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 08, 2021, 03:23:47 PM
Quote from: kalvado on July 08, 2021, 10:39:18 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 10:26:25 AM
The thing is that there is no question or real debate any longer.  The grid will be implemented.  The people that want to replace the viaduct will voice their comments at the scheduled hearing(s), they will be responded to in a way that will meet FHWA's requirements and the grid will move forward.
Or they will drag the project long enough for administration and priorities to change, another study of environmental effects of the previous study will be ordered, and viaduct will stay another few years decades until it collapses. [ /cynical]
I hope so. If the tunnel can't be build the skyway is a great alternative to the viaduct.
Dream: a cool new structure built after collapse
More realistic: Sorry, no funding for debree removal.

Grid is the best case scenario at this point...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on July 08, 2021, 10:14:17 PM
I just really, really hope they don't actually do "business loop I-81" and made the remaining freeway a 3di.  The business loop idea is quite honestly the part of the plan I hate the most.

Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 01:03:34 PM
Just take I-481 to the Thruway.  I mean, I am probably for rebuilding the viaduct when it comes down to it, but given realities about the grid, the minutes longer it will take makes it the best option.
Well out of the way on a local scale.  I-690 is slightly faster unless there's congestion, and doesn't have the "3 extra toll charges per direction because the Thruway bills AET in the stupidest way possible" problem, but is still well out of the way on a local scale (arguably even more so, because the extra distance is the same but the total distance is less).  If you were talking about the northern movement, why should I have to go out of my way to stay on the interstate system because someone thought a green shield would appease Pyramid when it absolutely won't?  Plus it's confusing since upstate NY uses "route" for everything, and now you'll have two roads signed "route 81".
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on July 08, 2021, 11:11:44 PM
^ That speaks far more to New Yorkers' inflexibility than it does the plan itself.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 11:30:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 08, 2021, 10:14:17 PM
I just really, really hope they don't actually do "business loop I-81" and made the remaining freeway a 3di.  The business loop idea is quite honestly the part of the plan I hate the most.

Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 01:03:34 PM
Just take I-481 to the Thruway.  I mean, I am probably for rebuilding the viaduct when it comes down to it, but given realities about the grid, the minutes longer it will take makes it the best option.
Well out of the way on a local scale.  I-690 is slightly faster unless there's congestion, and doesn't have the "3 extra toll charges per direction because the Thruway bills AET in the stupidest way possible" problem, but is still well out of the way on a local scale (arguably even more so, because the extra distance is the same but the total distance is less).  If you were talking about the northern movement, why should I have to go out of my way to stay on the interstate system because someone thought a green shield would appease Pyramid when it absolutely won't?  Plus it's confusing since upstate NY uses "route" for everything, and now you'll have two roads signed "route 81".
Well, fine.  Drive through the city with it's ill-timed lights and awkward on-ramp placement. :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on July 09, 2021, 01:12:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 11:30:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 08, 2021, 10:14:17 PM
I just really, really hope they don't actually do "business loop I-81" and made the remaining freeway a 3di.  The business loop idea is quite honestly the part of the plan I hate the most.

Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 01:03:34 PM
Just take I-481 to the Thruway.  I mean, I am probably for rebuilding the viaduct when it comes down to it, but given realities about the grid, the minutes longer it will take makes it the best option.
Well out of the way on a local scale.  I-690 is slightly faster unless there's congestion, and doesn't have the "3 extra toll charges per direction because the Thruway bills AET in the stupidest way possible" problem, but is still well out of the way on a local scale (arguably even more so, because the extra distance is the same but the total distance is less).  If you were talking about the northern movement, why should I have to go out of my way to stay on the interstate system because someone thought a green shield would appease Pyramid when it absolutely won't?  Plus it's confusing since upstate NY uses "route" for everything, and now you'll have two roads signed "route 81".
Well, fine.  Drive through the city with it's ill-timed lights and awkward on-ramp placement. :D
Where did I say that?  Or is it now planned to remove more of I-81 than in the last plan that was publicly revealed?  Last I checked, everything north of I-690 was supposed to remain exactly as it is now (with the exception of the I-481/NY 481 interchange changes), just with green shields and new exit numbers/mile markers.  Is that no longer the case?

For going south, Google does indeed list I-690 as faster than the Thruway (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.1066114,-76.2894257/43.046757,-76.0513978/@43.0751123,-76.2482385,11.21z), just by not much.

No thoughts on my business loop I-81 vs. 3di and state route extension issue?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on July 09, 2021, 02:15:32 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 09, 2021, 01:12:24 PM
No thoughts on my business loop I-81 vs. 3di and state route extension issue?
I'm afraid people don't really care about the shields too much. 3DI may make some sense - but who really cares?
I only wonder why business loop was brought up as an option to begin with. Someone from west coast in NYSDOT leadership? 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 09, 2021, 02:30:14 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 09, 2021, 01:12:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 11:30:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 08, 2021, 10:14:17 PM
I just really, really hope they don't actually do "business loop I-81" and made the remaining freeway a 3di.  The business loop idea is quite honestly the part of the plan I hate the most.

Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 01:03:34 PM
Just take I-481 to the Thruway.  I mean, I am probably for rebuilding the viaduct when it comes down to it, but given realities about the grid, the minutes longer it will take makes it the best option.
Well out of the way on a local scale.  I-690 is slightly faster unless there's congestion, and doesn't have the "3 extra toll charges per direction because the Thruway bills AET in the stupidest way possible" problem, but is still well out of the way on a local scale (arguably even more so, because the extra distance is the same but the total distance is less).  If you were talking about the northern movement, why should I have to go out of my way to stay on the interstate system because someone thought a green shield would appease Pyramid when it absolutely won't?  Plus it's confusing since upstate NY uses "route" for everything, and now you'll have two roads signed "route 81".
Well, fine.  Drive through the city with it's ill-timed lights and awkward on-ramp placement. :D
Where did I say that?  Or is it now planned to remove more of I-81 than in the last plan that was publicly revealed?  Last I checked, everything north of I-690 was supposed to remain exactly as it is now (with the exception of the I-481/NY 481 interchange changes), just with green shields and new exit numbers/mile markers.  Is that no longer the case?

For going south, Google does indeed list I-690 as faster than the Thruway (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.1066114,-76.2894257/43.046757,-76.0513978/@43.0751123,-76.2482385,11.21z), just by not much.

No thoughts on my business loop I-81 vs. 3di and state route extension issue?
It's going to be BL-81.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on July 09, 2021, 04:23:07 PM
Quote from: kalvado on July 09, 2021, 02:15:32 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 09, 2021, 01:12:24 PM
No thoughts on my business loop I-81 vs. 3di and state route extension issue?
I'm afraid people don't really care about the shields too much. 3DI may make some sense - but who really cares?
I only wonder why business loop was brought up as an option to begin with. Someone from west coast in NYSDOT leadership?
North Carolina and South Carolina have a handful of interstate business routes as well.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on July 09, 2021, 05:44:58 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2021, 02:30:14 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 09, 2021, 01:12:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 11:30:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 08, 2021, 10:14:17 PM
I just really, really hope they don't actually do "business loop I-81" and made the remaining freeway a 3di.  The business loop idea is quite honestly the part of the plan I hate the most.

Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 01:03:34 PM
Just take I-481 to the Thruway.  I mean, I am probably for rebuilding the viaduct when it comes down to it, but given realities about the grid, the minutes longer it will take makes it the best option.
Well out of the way on a local scale.  I-690 is slightly faster unless there's congestion, and doesn't have the "3 extra toll charges per direction because the Thruway bills AET in the stupidest way possible" problem, but is still well out of the way on a local scale (arguably even more so, because the extra distance is the same but the total distance is less).  If you were talking about the northern movement, why should I have to go out of my way to stay on the interstate system because someone thought a green shield would appease Pyramid when it absolutely won't?  Plus it's confusing since upstate NY uses "route" for everything, and now you'll have two roads signed "route 81".
Well, fine.  Drive through the city with it's ill-timed lights and awkward on-ramp placement. :D
Where did I say that?  Or is it now planned to remove more of I-81 than in the last plan that was publicly revealed?  Last I checked, everything north of I-690 was supposed to remain exactly as it is now (with the exception of the I-481/NY 481 interchange changes), just with green shields and new exit numbers/mile markers.  Is that no longer the case?

For going south, Google does indeed list I-690 as faster than the Thruway (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.1066114,-76.2894257/43.046757,-76.0513978/@43.0751123,-76.2482385,11.21z), just by not much.

No thoughts on my business loop I-81 vs. 3di and state route extension issue?
It's going to be BL-81.

Then there are a bunch of FM's embedded in the decision-making process.  BTW, "M" means morons, the "F" can be freely interpolated (hint: it's a gerund)!  Nevertheless, if the grid decision is nailed down, the main thing, besides designation of the inner-city remnants, is to revise the north 81/481 interchange to expedite the main traffic movement on the rerouted I-81; leaving it on a low-speed cloverleaf would be an equally deplorable decision. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on July 09, 2021, 08:08:07 PM
Quote from: sparker on July 09, 2021, 05:44:58 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2021, 02:30:14 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 09, 2021, 01:12:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 11:30:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 08, 2021, 10:14:17 PM
I just really, really hope they don't actually do "business loop I-81" and made the remaining freeway a 3di.  The business loop idea is quite honestly the part of the plan I hate the most.

Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 01:03:34 PM
Just take I-481 to the Thruway.  I mean, I am probably for rebuilding the viaduct when it comes down to it, but given realities about the grid, the minutes longer it will take makes it the best option.
Well out of the way on a local scale.  I-690 is slightly faster unless there's congestion, and doesn't have the "3 extra toll charges per direction because the Thruway bills AET in the stupidest way possible" problem, but is still well out of the way on a local scale (arguably even more so, because the extra distance is the same but the total distance is less).  If you were talking about the northern movement, why should I have to go out of my way to stay on the interstate system because someone thought a green shield would appease Pyramid when it absolutely won't?  Plus it's confusing since upstate NY uses "route" for everything, and now you'll have two roads signed "route 81".
Well, fine.  Drive through the city with it's ill-timed lights and awkward on-ramp placement. :D
Where did I say that?  Or is it now planned to remove more of I-81 than in the last plan that was publicly revealed?  Last I checked, everything north of I-690 was supposed to remain exactly as it is now (with the exception of the I-481/NY 481 interchange changes), just with green shields and new exit numbers/mile markers.  Is that no longer the case?

For going south, Google does indeed list I-690 as faster than the Thruway (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.1066114,-76.2894257/43.046757,-76.0513978/@43.0751123,-76.2482385,11.21z), just by not much.

No thoughts on my business loop I-81 vs. 3di and state route extension issue?
It's going to be BL-81.

Then there are a bunch of FM's embedded in the decision-making process.  BTW, "M" means morons, the "F" can be freely interpolated (hint: it's a gerund)!  Nevertheless, if the grid decision is nailed down, the main thing, besides designation of the inner-city remnants, is to revise the north 81/481 interchange to expedite the main traffic movement on the rerouted I-81; leaving it on a low-speed cloverleaf would be an equally deplorable decision. 

I wouldn't mind NY 581 from the northern I-81/I-481 junction to I-690 downtown. Since Syracuse doesn't want an interstate going through the city, I don't think it should be I-581, but NY 581 would be appropriate. The BL-81 markers will also do the trick, though NYers aren't used to the green shields and as others have said, it'll just be "Route 81", which could be confusing for many.

The bright spot of all this is this grid plan (though my opinion has no relevance, I think it's a dumb idea) is that I-81 will now get distance based interchange numbers from Binghamton to the Canadian border.

That'll make the everyone in the state love the idea even more. /s
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on July 09, 2021, 09:01:36 PM
Quote from: kalvado on July 09, 2021, 02:15:32 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 09, 2021, 01:12:24 PM
No thoughts on my business loop I-81 vs. 3di and state route extension issue?
I'm afraid people don't really care about the shields too much. 3DI may make some sense - but who really cares?
I only wonder why business loop was brought up as an option to begin with. Someone from west coast in NYSDOT leadership? 
My understanding is that it was an attempt to appease Pyramid (DestiNY USA) and the hotels in Salina - "see, you'll still have route 81, the shields will just be green instead of blue!".  Except they're still as upset as ever.

Quote from: sparker on July 09, 2021, 05:44:58 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2021, 02:30:14 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 09, 2021, 01:12:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 11:30:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 08, 2021, 10:14:17 PM
I just really, really hope they don't actually do "business loop I-81" and made the remaining freeway a 3di.  The business loop idea is quite honestly the part of the plan I hate the most.

Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 01:03:34 PM
Just take I-481 to the Thruway.  I mean, I am probably for rebuilding the viaduct when it comes down to it, but given realities about the grid, the minutes longer it will take makes it the best option.
Well out of the way on a local scale.  I-690 is slightly faster unless there's congestion, and doesn't have the "3 extra toll charges per direction because the Thruway bills AET in the stupidest way possible" problem, but is still well out of the way on a local scale (arguably even more so, because the extra distance is the same but the total distance is less).  If you were talking about the northern movement, why should I have to go out of my way to stay on the interstate system because someone thought a green shield would appease Pyramid when it absolutely won't?  Plus it's confusing since upstate NY uses "route" for everything, and now you'll have two roads signed "route 81".
Well, fine.  Drive through the city with it's ill-timed lights and awkward on-ramp placement. :D
Where did I say that?  Or is it now planned to remove more of I-81 than in the last plan that was publicly revealed?  Last I checked, everything north of I-690 was supposed to remain exactly as it is now (with the exception of the I-481/NY 481 interchange changes), just with green shields and new exit numbers/mile markers.  Is that no longer the case?

For going south, Google does indeed list I-690 as faster than the Thruway (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.1066114,-76.2894257/43.046757,-76.0513978/@43.0751123,-76.2482385,11.21z), just by not much.

No thoughts on my business loop I-81 vs. 3di and state route extension issue?
It's going to be BL-81.

Then there are a bunch of FM's embedded in the decision-making process.  BTW, "M" means morons, the "F" can be freely interpolated (hint: it's a gerund)!  Nevertheless, if the grid decision is nailed down, the main thing, besides designation of the inner-city remnants, is to revise the north 81/481 interchange to expedite the main traffic movement on the rerouted I-81; leaving it on a low-speed cloverleaf would be an equally deplorable decision. 
See page 64:
https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/03%20Alternatives_04-19-2019.pdf

Quote from: machias on July 09, 2021, 08:08:07 PM
Quote from: sparker on July 09, 2021, 05:44:58 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2021, 02:30:14 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 09, 2021, 01:12:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 11:30:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 08, 2021, 10:14:17 PM
I just really, really hope they don't actually do "business loop I-81" and made the remaining freeway a 3di.  The business loop idea is quite honestly the part of the plan I hate the most.

Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 01:03:34 PM
Just take I-481 to the Thruway.  I mean, I am probably for rebuilding the viaduct when it comes down to it, but given realities about the grid, the minutes longer it will take makes it the best option.
Well out of the way on a local scale.  I-690 is slightly faster unless there's congestion, and doesn't have the "3 extra toll charges per direction because the Thruway bills AET in the stupidest way possible" problem, but is still well out of the way on a local scale (arguably even more so, because the extra distance is the same but the total distance is less).  If you were talking about the northern movement, why should I have to go out of my way to stay on the interstate system because someone thought a green shield would appease Pyramid when it absolutely won't?  Plus it's confusing since upstate NY uses "route" for everything, and now you'll have two roads signed "route 81".
Well, fine.  Drive through the city with it's ill-timed lights and awkward on-ramp placement. :D
Where did I say that?  Or is it now planned to remove more of I-81 than in the last plan that was publicly revealed?  Last I checked, everything north of I-690 was supposed to remain exactly as it is now (with the exception of the I-481/NY 481 interchange changes), just with green shields and new exit numbers/mile markers.  Is that no longer the case?

For going south, Google does indeed list I-690 as faster than the Thruway (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.1066114,-76.2894257/43.046757,-76.0513978/@43.0751123,-76.2482385,11.21z), just by not much.

No thoughts on my business loop I-81 vs. 3di and state route extension issue?
It's going to be BL-81.

Then there are a bunch of FM's embedded in the decision-making process.  BTW, "M" means morons, the "F" can be freely interpolated (hint: it's a gerund)!  Nevertheless, if the grid decision is nailed down, the main thing, besides designation of the inner-city remnants, is to revise the north 81/481 interchange to expedite the main traffic movement on the rerouted I-81; leaving it on a low-speed cloverleaf would be an equally deplorable decision. 

I wouldn't mind NY 581 from the northern I-81/I-481 junction to I-690 downtown. Since Syracuse doesn't want an interstate going through the city, I don't think it should be I-581, but NY 581 would be appropriate. The BL-81 markers will also do the trick, though NYers aren't used to the green shields and as others have said, it'll just be "Route 81", which could be confusing for many.

The bright spot of all this is this grid plan (though my opinion has no relevance, I think it's a dumb idea) is that I-81 will now get distance based interchange numbers from Binghamton to the Canadian border.

That'll make the everyone in the state love the idea even more. /s
The mile-based numbers are the ONE silver lining on a project that seems to get worse with each new iteration of the plan.  I think it's safe to say that I'm opposed to anything that takes the I-690-I-481/NY 481 portion of the route out of the interstate system.  Why should traffic from Rochester to Watertown/Canada have to leave the interstate system to get between I-90 and I-81?  That route will be an integral route for thru traffic, no matter what the business loop proponents may say.  Its status in the system should reflect that.

Regarding mile-based numbers, I'm pretty sure most of the opposition to that is downstate.  My aunt and uncle will be very happy to see the numbers on I-81 switch.  The Thruway's Facebook page also got a ton of comments asking when the numbers will change, as well.  I wonder what will happen with NY 481 - will everything be left as-is, or will it get re-calibrated to reflect the truncation of "481"?  Something tells me I-690 will stay the same (maybe exit 12 for current I-81, since the reconfiguration of West Street should free up the existing one?), though IMO this would be a good chance to just go ahead and convert everything in Region 3.

Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2021, 02:30:14 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 09, 2021, 01:12:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 11:30:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 08, 2021, 10:14:17 PM
I just really, really hope they don't actually do "business loop I-81" and made the remaining freeway a 3di.  The business loop idea is quite honestly the part of the plan I hate the most.

Quote from: Rothman on July 08, 2021, 01:03:34 PM
Just take I-481 to the Thruway.  I mean, I am probably for rebuilding the viaduct when it comes down to it, but given realities about the grid, the minutes longer it will take makes it the best option.
Well out of the way on a local scale.  I-690 is slightly faster unless there's congestion, and doesn't have the "3 extra toll charges per direction because the Thruway bills AET in the stupidest way possible" problem, but is still well out of the way on a local scale (arguably even more so, because the extra distance is the same but the total distance is less).  If you were talking about the northern movement, why should I have to go out of my way to stay on the interstate system because someone thought a green shield would appease Pyramid when it absolutely won't?  Plus it's confusing since upstate NY uses "route" for everything, and now you'll have two roads signed "route 81".
Well, fine.  Drive through the city with it's ill-timed lights and awkward on-ramp placement. :D
Where did I say that?  Or is it now planned to remove more of I-81 than in the last plan that was publicly revealed?  Last I checked, everything north of I-690 was supposed to remain exactly as it is now (with the exception of the I-481/NY 481 interchange changes), just with green shields and new exit numbers/mile markers.  Is that no longer the case?

For going south, Google does indeed list I-690 as faster than the Thruway (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.1066114,-76.2894257/43.046757,-76.0513978/@43.0751123,-76.2482385,11.21z), just by not much.

No thoughts on my business loop I-81 vs. 3di and state route extension issue?
It's going to be BL-81.
No chance that they'll walk it back and pick something more sensible?  That sucks.  One thing I've always loved about upstate NY is the great interstate system connectivity, but it seems like they're determined to throw that away.  Soon Albany will be the only place other than NYC that still has it (not that Rochester was great in that respect before, but at least it used to be solely PA's fault).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 09, 2021, 10:58:08 PM
A lot of prep work on I-481 will happen as phase 1 of the project.  I-690's off and on ramps are going to be reconfigured.  Bridges over I-690 are going to be replaced.  It's going to be a while before the viaduct actually comes down.

In terms of "interstate connectivity," BL-81 will be the same facility it is now and I would doubt it would lose its 90% NHPP eligibility.  Green shield or blue shield...just doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on July 10, 2021, 02:18:26 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2021, 10:58:08 PM
A lot of prep work on I-481 will happen as phase 1 of the project.  I-690's off and on ramps are going to be reconfigured.  Bridges over I-690 are going to be replaced.  It's going to be a while before the viaduct actually comes down.

In terms of "interstate connectivity," BL-81 will be the same facility it is now and I would doubt it would lose its 90% NHPP eligibility.  Green shield or blue shield...just doesn't matter.

Then you'll just have to agree to disagree with some of us about this.  Personally, I never liked the "Biz 80" concept in Sacramento, and the NC/SC instances always seemed a bit forced (and NC has, thankfully, backed away from the idea).  If it's an Interstate-grade freeway, it should be signed as such, regardless of whether or not some corporate weasel can convince state DOT officials to attempt to confuse the driving public with two roads bearing the same number.  We forum contributors aren't fooled, but we're the exception rather than the rule.  It's a shame that those with decision-making power have little or no concept of convention or system history (but then the national experience of 2017-2021 showed what malignant incompetence wrought!).  IMO, the best solution would be to sign the freeway remainder north of I-690 as I-681 (keeping the Syracuse "600" motif consistent), with the boulevard/grid segment to the south as NY 681.  One continually-numbered but situationally appropriate composite facility that references the trunk "81" number but poses minimal confusion to the driving public, especially visitors from out of the area. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on July 11, 2021, 12:09:20 AM
Yes, I hate how people tend not to think in terms of the system as a whole anymore.  The interstate system is one of the greatest engineering marvels ever created by mankind.  It should be respected and refined with all that entails, not hacked about by people who only bother to think in terms of a specific corridor at a time.  I-681/NY 681 would be perfect for the route.  It would be elegant, at least to the extent it is possible to be elegant while still removing the viaduct.

Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2021, 10:58:08 PM
A lot of prep work on I-481 will happen as phase 1 of the project.  I-690's off and on ramps are going to be reconfigured.  Bridges over I-690 are going to be replaced.  It's going to be a while before the viaduct actually comes down.

In terms of "interstate connectivity," BL-81 will be the same facility it is now and I would doubt it would lose its 90% NHPP eligibility.  Green shield or blue shield...just doesn't matter.
But the green shields aren't interstates (https://travelmapping.net/user/system.php?u=vdeane&sys=usai).  It may still be an all-freeway route, but you can't call it an all-interstate route.  Go take a look at Spartanburg on FHWA's map (https://hepgis.fhwa.dot.gov/fhwagis/) and see what business loop 85 isn't recognized as.  If it's not signed with the red, which, and blue shield, recognized by FHWA, or in usai on TM, it's not an interstate.  Period.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: amroad17 on July 11, 2021, 07:22:24 AM
Maybe someone should get in touch with the congressional representative for the Syracuse area and have them attempt to make a law for the section of I-81 north of I-690 be re-designated as I-681 and the section of I-81 from I-481 south of the city to wherever it may end in the city be NY 681.  It seems to work in other areas of the USA.  ;-)

Another option could be the use of the "dreaded" green Business Spur instead of Business Loop for the section south of I-690, while pushing for I-681 north of I-690.  Or, maybe US 11 should be re-routed onto I-81 at Exit 16 and have that be the Community Grid routing.

Just a few suggestions to keep from having an Interstate Business Loop cover the entire section of soon-to-be re-routed I-81.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 11, 2021, 08:31:00 AM
BL-81 will just be one of those elements of the system that will cause grief for some roadgeeks for years to come.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on July 11, 2021, 05:06:08 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on July 11, 2021, 07:22:24 AM
Maybe someone should get in touch with the congressional representative for the Syracuse area and have them attempt to make a law for the section of I-81 north of I-690 be re-designated as I-681 and the section of I-81 from I-481 south of the city to wherever it may end in the city be NY 681.  It seems to work in other areas of the USA.  ;-)
That it does.  That said, I won't be involved in such and effort - I try to avoid political lobbying with respect to transportation for ethics reasons.  As such, it would be a project for other forum members.

Quote from: Rothman on July 11, 2021, 08:31:00 AM
BL-81 will just be one of those elements of the system that will cause grief for some roadgeeks for years to come.
I don't understand why this element seems to be so set in stone.  It was an attempt to appease Pyramid and the hotels, it failed, so why not go back to more conventional options that don't include deleting the remaining freeway from the interstate system?  Honestly, I could live with the community grid if it weren't for that one element of the plan.  I wouldn't really be happy about it (especially as the other silver lining, the I-690 east to existing I-81 north and existing I-81 south to I-690 west ramps being built, was removed from the project), but I could at least live with it.  Except for this one thing.

And why does it seems like the decision makers in transportation are making decisions that roadgeeks grumble about more and more often?  I'm not even talking about shifts to favoring non-motorized modes of transportation, but stuff like BL 81, duplicating numbers (see: the Southway), I-69E/C/W, VT's "milepoint exit numbers", etc.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on July 12, 2021, 01:03:28 AM
QuoteAnd why does it seems like the decision makers in transportation are making decisions that roadgeeks grumble about more and more often?

To put it somewhat bluntly, this is because the general traveling public is far less OCD about road-type stuff than roadgeeks are.  And it should be noted that not all roadgeeks are grumbling about these decisions/changes you refer to.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on July 12, 2021, 04:07:59 AM
Quote from: froggie on July 12, 2021, 01:03:28 AM
QuoteAnd why does it seems like the decision makers in transportation are making decisions that roadgeeks grumble about more and more often?

To put it somewhat bluntly, this is because the general traveling public is far less OCD about road-type stuff than roadgeeks are.  And it should be noted that not all roadgeeks are grumbling about these decisions/changes you refer to.


I would have rephrased the question; to wit:  why are the decision makers in the official transportation arena making decisions, particularly in matters of signage, route continuity, and designations in general, that seem arbitrary, often counterintuitive, and basically lacking in context -- historical and otherwise?   

IMO, the answers are twofold:  former state highway departments, in most venues, have "morphed" into more omnibus transportation agencies that have reset priorities away from expedition of road travel, and the level of both interest in this sort of thing and expertise at it have dissipated over the past couple of decades (Caltrans being a prime example of this dynamic -- or lack thereof); a correlated phenomenon is that the current generation of transportation planners at both the state and MPO level have incorporated a higher level of what is described as "urbanist" standards and criteria, which has further exacerbated the shift away from automotive accommodation.  Second, a concurrent reduction in public-sector revenues coupled with inflationary pressure has shrunk the available funding pool, so with the priority shifts cited above there's scant bandwidth within DOT's to address all the issues facing the agencies on a regular basis, so "triage" of priorities has meant that human resources, including research capabilities, aren't consistently directed toward things considered relatively trivial or inconsequential such as the designation/signage issues we're talking about here.  And that means that decisions are often made with less than optimal information by folks under pressure to put the matter to rest and move on to something else.  Of course, this results in suboptimal decision-making; but short of a concerted push to replace DOT officials (and SCOURN, for that matter!) with Forum contributors :hmmm: :rofl:, it's something with which we'll all have to live for the time being.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 12, 2021, 07:05:33 AM
DOTs becoming multimodal has nothing to do with the BL-81 designation.  The other modes at NYSDOT receive a tiny fraction of resources compared to the highways, roads and bridges of the capital program.  Suggesting that the other modes are sucking away at the highway program to have the effect suggested is simply unfounded if you really know how NYSDOT operates.

In terms of a lack of resources leading to decisions like BL-81, that also seems unfounded to me.  Cost was definitely the main factor in deciding on ripping down the viaduct (determined at much higher levels than within NYSDOT), but the BL-81 decision was considered very minor compared to the actual work needing to be done (e.g., I-481 improvements, the downtown bridge replacements, improvements to the surface streets...heck, even a couple of the preparatory roundabout projects in the outer reaches that have already started design).  In other words, even if the grid option was chosen for other reasons besides cost, designation of the old pieces of I-81 as whatever route would still be considered the least of the worries given the size of the project.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on July 12, 2021, 01:00:45 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 12, 2021, 01:03:28 AM
QuoteAnd why does it seems like the decision makers in transportation are making decisions that roadgeeks grumble about more and more often?

To put it somewhat bluntly, this is because the general traveling public is far less OCD about road-type stuff than roadgeeks are.  And it should be noted that not all roadgeeks are grumbling about these decisions/changes you refer to.

That's always been the case, though, and yet 15 years ago I feel like there wasn't nearly as much to complain about.  Mainly I-238, I-99, and maybe I-73/74.  Plus you'd think the people at DOTs would care at least somewhat (says the person who knows better than most that most DOT employees aren't roadgeeks either).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: storm2k on July 12, 2021, 01:24:22 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 11, 2021, 05:06:08 PM
And why does it seems like the decision makers in transportation are making decisions that roadgeeks grumble about more and more often?

Because politicians, mostly. Don't forget we have Interstate 99 because Bud Shuster decided he liked the idea of Interstate 99 even though 99 doesn't fit into the grid (neither does 97, honestly, especially because it's a relatively tiny stretch that would have been better off being a x95 spur, but I digress). And the fun stuff that NC has been doing, eh. Texas does the same chicanery. I'm way less of a proponent of needing a red, white, and blue shield on every road than some of you so long as the roads that are built or upgraded make sense for the area they're in and people can find their way from Point A to Point B.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on July 12, 2021, 08:48:53 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 12, 2021, 07:05:33 AM
DOTs becoming multimodal has nothing to do with the BL-81 designation.  The other modes at NYSDOT receive a tiny fraction of resources compared to the highways, roads and bridges of the capital program.  Suggesting that the other modes are sucking away at the highway program to have the effect suggested is simply unfounded if you really know how NYSDOT operates.

In terms of a lack of resources leading to decisions like BL-81, that also seems unfounded to me.  Cost was definitely the main factor in deciding on ripping down the viaduct (determined at much higher levels than within NYSDOT), but the BL-81 decision was considered very minor compared to the actual work needing to be done (e.g., I-481 improvements, the downtown bridge replacements, improvements to the surface streets...heck, even a couple of the preparatory roundabout projects in the outer reaches that have already started design).  In other words, even if the grid option was chosen for other reasons besides cost, designation of the old pieces of I-81 as whatever route would still be considered the least of the worries given the size of the project.


In short, someone at NYSDOT just didn't really give a shit about the designation; while the characterization of that designation decision as minor -- in a relative sense -- to the decision to actually remove the freeway is valid, it's still a decision that will have some effect upon the driving public and shouldn't be dismissed as irrelevant.  The term that comes to mind is thoughtless -- in a more literal sense, lack of thought before, during, and after such a decision process.   You claim that it's not lack of resources or the metamorphosis of DOT's into a wider range of modes and concerns that is responsible for such decisions; if I and the other forum contributors can press upon your knowledge of the workings of your agency, please inform us, as exactly as possible, how the decision process for these apparently "lower-priority" issues works -- what information goes into the hopper, what comes out, and is there some sort of feedback loop to vet these decisions? 

These are things that in the past were deemed important enough to be given serious consideration.  And it's not just the NY agency that tends to render questionable choices these days; it's a sort of malaise that affects DOT's nationwide.  And if it's not the present DOTs' configuration, and it's not lack of funds to pay folks to actually do the research needed to arrive at a reasonable decision, and it's not a widespread internal view that "nobody gives a shit; why should we!" regarding such "secondary" considerations as designation and signage, then just what is the overarching factor here?  There's enough of you DOT employees in the forum contributor pool; a birds-eye view of the factors, influences, and attitudes that eventually produce a product and/or policy that comes out the other end would certainly be informative.  Just remember you work for a DOT, not the CIA!  We don't need minutiae; just insight!       
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 12, 2021, 10:34:51 PM
This isn't rocket science, but you're right about designation being considered not very important.  As has been said many times before, the travelling public mostly won't care.  Therefore, the thought put into the decision matched the level of impact.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on July 13, 2021, 06:23:52 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 12, 2021, 10:34:51 PM
This isn't rocket science, but you're right about designation being considered not very important.  As has been said many times before, the travelling public mostly won't care.  Therefore, the thought put into the decision matched the level of impact.

Looks like this particular DOT's perception of driver apathy has bred agency apathy as well, which will undoubtedly result in dubious decisions being made down the line.  If our esteemed forum contributor's attitude is typical of said agency, it's no wonder this atmosphere pervades the process (the disclaimer at the bottom of the entry notwithstanding).  Unfortunately, this agency is hardly unique in that respect -- but my questions as to what makes these agencies assume that position still stand -- that the situation exists is a given, and acknowledged by said contributor -- but why it exists or is allowed to has yet to be elucidated.  Possibly the folks within this sort of public-sector entity have instituted a "brick wall" approach to such things -- that policy is decided elsewhere, and they're just there to implement those decisions (what I'd call the Public Administration 101 syndrome*); with little or no feedback loops by which decisions are assessed.  Any way one looks at it, it's a pretty dismal state of affairs.  Perhaps someone somewhere would demonstrate the wherewithal to break the apathy cycle -- someone who sees the job as more than just a paycheck!

* Disclaimer:  I have a MPA and have been through that particular wringer -- but fortunately in a program that emphasized the questioning of established practices. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 13, 2021, 06:54:10 AM
Well, like I said, when the impact upon the public is minimal, then the care given the decision is going to match it. 

Those who are angry about the designation have so far failed to demonstrate that the BL-81 shields are going to be detrimental to the travelling public.

Certainly, north to west or east to south traffic is affected by the removal of the viaduct.  However, whether the route through the city is marked with green shields or various red-white-and-blue shields -- the importance and significance of that difference is pretty low.  People and mapping services will just care where the remaining highway portions are, how to navigate the surface streets or just bypassing on I-81.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on July 13, 2021, 08:44:57 AM
I can't find a single comment from a vested party (by the public to NYSDOT) that is concerned about route numbering.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on July 13, 2021, 09:59:49 AM
Quote from: seicer on July 13, 2021, 08:44:57 AM
I can't find a single comment from a vested party (by the public to NYSDOT) that is concerned about route numbering.
If you think about it, @vdeane is a member of the local public, who actually uses the road. She may be among the tiny minority who cares, but you cannot dismiss her comments on that basis.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on July 13, 2021, 10:38:25 AM
That's not what I meant. During the public hearings.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: US 89 on July 13, 2021, 11:19:30 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 13, 2021, 06:54:10 AM
Those who are angry about the designation have so far failed to demonstrate that the BL-81 shields are going to be detrimental to the travelling public.

Personally I do think designating the old route as Business 81 has the potential to confuse the few westerners traveling through the area who are unfamiliar with business loops being used this way (as they are in Spartanburg, Greensboro etc). To the average driver who spends most of their time in the western half of the US, "business route" means "that road that goes through town that has gas stations and restaurants and historic downtown areas along it". That is obviously not what BL-81 is going to be.

But since NY currently has zero interstate business routes, this is probably not going to be an issue for most in-state drivers. And in the long run it likely won't really matter because the business loop will go the same place mainline 81 does in probably close to the same amount of time.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 13, 2021, 12:03:21 PM
Quote from: US 89 on July 13, 2021, 11:19:30 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 13, 2021, 06:54:10 AM
Those who are angry about the designation have so far failed to demonstrate that the BL-81 shields are going to be detrimental to the travelling public.

Personally I do think designating the old route as Business 81 has the potential to confuse the few westerners traveling through the area who are unfamiliar with business loops being used this way (as they are in Spartanburg, Greensboro etc). To the average driver who spends most of their time in the western half of the US, "business route" means "that road that goes through town that has gas stations and restaurants and historic downtown areas along it". That is obviously not what BL-81 is going to be.

But since NY currently has zero interstate business routes, this is probably not going to be an issue for most in-state drivers. And in the long run it likely won't really matter because the business loop will go the same place mainline 81 does in probably close to the same amount of time.

BL-81 will go along the perimeter of downtown Syracuse on surface streets.  Although it has freeway sections on the north and south, the rest of it acts like any business loop I've been on.  There'll even be a cheap, crowded Speedway at which to get gas on the route, I believe.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on July 13, 2021, 01:01:53 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 13, 2021, 06:54:10 AM
Well, like I said, when the impact upon the public is minimal, then the care given the decision is going to match it. 

Those who are angry about the designation have so far failed to demonstrate that the BL-81 shields are going to be detrimental to the travelling public.

Certainly, north to west or east to south traffic is affected by the removal of the viaduct.  However, whether the route through the city is marked with green shields or various red-white-and-blue shields -- the importance and significance of that difference is pretty low.  People and mapping services will just care where the remaining highway portions are, how to navigate the surface streets or just bypassing on I-81.
I would think having two "route 81s" in the same place would be confusing.  Sure, number duplication exists in NY, but not that close together outside of I-90 and NY 90, and that's different not only because there's no interchange, but I-90 is just "the Thruway".  Even here in the Capital District where people will refer to routes as interstates, that doesn't mean they're actually referring to the road correctly - I've heard Cohoes Boulevard called "interstate 787" many times even though it's never been a part of the interstate system and has traffic lights.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on July 13, 2021, 01:41:28 PM
Question:  Exactly who came up with the business loop 81 concept and what is their position within or connection to NYSDOT?  From what's been bandied about, it was either a lodging chain or their representative concerned about continued business, which seems a bit squirreley to me.  Were there alternatives proposed, or was the decision made more or less off the top of someone's head?  The lack of previous business loops/spurs in NY seems to point to the latter, since there wasn't official precedent for such a designation. 

If the BL 81 plans proceed as planned, we'll just have to see if it causes any user confusion down the line; my own educated guess, informed by the Biz 80 situation in Sacramento, is that there will be some issues, particularly with out-of-town drivers visiting the state fair or the university.  It just seems to be a waste of effort and scant funds to deploy signage for a potentially problematic designation when a little more forethought and imagination -- and even a minimal level of research -- might avoid such issues.  But I can also see how our two regular NYSDOT staff contributors may wish to keep an arm's length from overt involvement in these matters; having dealt with Caltrans on numerous occasions as both an academic researcher and as a consultant, it seems that, more often than not, adopting a "CYA" mode when functioning in an official capacity is necessary considering the atmosphere in which the agencies must operate; in this respect they have my understanding and more than a little sympathy.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on July 14, 2021, 08:48:35 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on July 11, 2021, 07:22:24 AM
Maybe someone should get in touch with the congressional representative for the Syracuse area and have them attempt to make a law for the section of I-81 north of I-690 be re-designated as I-681 and the section of I-81 from I-481 south of the city to wherever it may end in the city be NY 681.  It seems to work in other areas of the USA.  ;-)

Another option could be the use of the "dreaded" green Business Spur instead of Business Loop for the section south of I-690, while pushing for I-681 north of I-690.  Or, maybe US 11 should be re-routed onto I-81 at Exit 16 and have that be the Community Grid routing.

Just a few suggestions to keep from having an Interstate Business Loop cover the entire section of soon-to-be re-routed I-81.

He is the Hon. John Katko.

https://katko.house.gov/contact/email

ixnay
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 14, 2021, 10:35:53 AM
Katko seems more preoccupied with the southern border than I-81 currently.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on July 16, 2021, 09:23:14 AM
And the project is inching forward. Preliminary Draft Design Report/Draft Environmental Impact Statementare released.
https://static.parsons.com/I-81-DEIS/07-2021/
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TheDon102 on July 16, 2021, 01:39:10 PM
what a disaster
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on July 16, 2021, 02:00:33 PM
Quote from: TheDon102 on July 16, 2021, 01:39:10 PM
what a disaster

I think the appropriate term is FUBAR!  While the original solution is merely questionable, the subsequent plans to make it at least acceptable (and rational) have been worse.  It's like NYSDOT is pretending that the remaining freeway north of I-690 isn't a real freeway (and maybe that's the misbegotten intent in order to appease certain RE/T influences).  Sleight-of-hand, however, only goes so far; when driver confusion occurs down the line, it'll certainly be interesting to see if agency management forms a circular firing squad when blame/responsibility is being assessed! 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on July 16, 2021, 09:31:12 PM
Yeah, I don't get this obsession with removing the part that remains a freeway from the interstate system.  I noticed this in the project goals:

Quote
Maintain or enhance vehicle access to the interstate highway network and key destinations (i.e., business districts, hospitals, and institutions) within neighborhoods within and near Downtown Syracuse.

Apparently everyone who uses I-81 between the I-481 interchanges but isn't going to/from downtown Syracuse is not important.  How about the interstate connectivity of everyone going from Rochester/Buffalo to the 1000 Islands, eastern Ontario, and Québec?  It sucks that the "only the individual corridor matters, not what it means for the connectivity and continuity of the rest of the system" attitude that I've complained at length about with respect to Canada has infected NY.  I'm starting to think that if the people who are in charge of DOTs today were around in the 1950s, we would never have gotten an interstate system - we would only have gotten relocated US routes, and the lower traffic corridors might not have gotten anything at all beyond perhaps bypasses for the towns.  The red, white, and blue shield we all know and love would never have existed.

And yeah, I agree about the downgrade in the alternatives.  I liked the original one better than what we have now.

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on July 16, 2021, 10:37:53 PM
I took a glance at the new draft design when I saw it mentioned on Syracuse.com, and spent most of this evening taking a closer look at the updated plans.  Two changes stood out to me: a lot of sound walls, and work along the NY 5/NY 92 duplex.

The sound walls will be in the following locations for the Community Grid (there may be some I missed, but it's an 841 page PDF!):
The viaduct replacement would have those sound walls, along with others through the city on both I-81 and I-690 and I-481 between Rock Cut Road and Jamesville Road, but it looks like the wood ones on I-481 wouldn't be replaced.  I wonder how much cost all those walls will add to either option!

In the Community Grid plan, the three eastbound lanes on NY 5/92 will be extended west to just west of Erie Blvd, and a second turn lane will be added for NY 92 at the eastern split.  At the I-481 interchange, the south to east loop will be replaced with a triple left at the current south to west ramp.  While it's often annoying to have more stoplights, I think this will actually help, and I've considered it before.  I've experienced weaving with traffic entering I-481, and I've seen the loop full of cars.  Since I always continue on NY 5 eastbound after it splits from NY 92, I move to the left as soon as possible so I'm not forced onto NY 92.  One time, I stopped at the Wegmans just to the east, and had to move over twice pretty quick.  Even though it was busy, it was surprisingly easier than I was expecting, but I've seen it busier to the point where I probably wouldn't have been able to make it.  Even if the viaduct were picked, I think I'd still like to see the loop replaced with a triple left.

Regarding the BL-81 vs. I-x81 discussion above, I noticed that documents from 2016 suggested an I-x81 for the segment from I-481 to I-690.  This (https://www.dot.ny.gov/i81opportunities/repository/2016-12-05_Northern%20Segment%20Vis%20Sims-plot..pdf) visual simulation shows BGSes for I-581, like suggested above.  As for confusion, I wouldn't be surprised.  I sometimes hear people refer to the NY 5 Camillus Bypass, NY 695 and I-690 as "I-690", "690", or "695" for all three routes.

Two last thoughts:

First, I noticed they redesigned the I-81 project site.  I was looking for the repository, but couldn't find it.  I noticed it was part of the URL for the PDFs I could get, but when I went to it, it showed up for a moment then redirected to the new site.  If I keep hitting [ESC] to stop loading at the right time, I can still access the old repository.

Second, I wonder how many people realize that with either option, this project is a lot bigger than just the viaduct.  It's rebuilding all of I-81 through Syracuse (literally from the south to north city line), and I-690 through downtown.  Add the two I-81/I-481 interchanges and I-481 improvements if the Community Grid is picked.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on July 17, 2021, 10:36:34 AM
Wow.  I wonder what the reason for all those sound walls is.  Normally sound walls only get put in when a major project is happening in the immediate area.

I do wonder just what the benefit of BL 81 is supposed to be.  I could see trying to throw Pyramid and the hotels a bone... but they're still angry, even after the announcement a year or two ago that there would be a business route (and probably always will be, short of an about-face to rebuild the viaduct).  The only other reasons I can think are as follows: appease the advocates by getting rid of interstate mileage, even if the freeway north of I-690 isn't removed (next thing you know, they'll turn I-690 into BL 90; Region 3, please don't get any ideas!); some manager saw business routes out west and thinks they're neat, and decided to use his authority to bring one to NY.

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 17, 2021, 12:07:15 PM
Maybe the portion that is being converted into a boulevard could be signed as To Interstate 690 northbound, and To Interstate 81 southbound. The portion north of Interstate 690 could be redesignated as an x81 3di. That might be more practical than running a BL-81 through the city.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on July 17, 2021, 12:25:10 PM
Maybe they should get rid of state funds for the portion that's being downgraded to BL 81 and make it a county route. It's not like it's serving the motorists of the state anymore.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 17, 2021, 12:31:18 PM
Anyone actually going to submit their comments to NYSDOT/FHWA?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on July 17, 2021, 12:39:50 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 17, 2021, 12:31:18 PM
Anyone actually going to submit their comments to NYSDOT/FHWA?

I have submitted several comments to FHWA and NYSDOT on the subject. It's good to maintain a dialog with them and they respond 80-85% of the time. Since I no longer live in the northeast I've refrained from further comment. I save that for my family that still lives in the area. None of them like the community grid idea. At all.  As my uncle says, "it does not make sense for me to get from Liverpool to Binghamton I have to drive through Dewitt". Many of them figure the viaduct will fall down before anything is actually done about it. Maybe we're all cranky about the subject because it's slightly maddening.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on July 22, 2021, 09:59:04 PM
So for anyone interested in commenting on anything, this article (https://www.syracuse.com/state/2021/07/i-81-project-in-syracuse-see-the-entire-2-billion-proposal-with-maps-data-and-more.html) has information about where to submit comments.  The same site also has some information on when different parts of the project will be done (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2021/07/i-81-construction-begins-next-year-but-the-hulking-highway-wont-come-down-for-years.html).  NYSDOT also posted a video with renderings of the business loop:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slIsfAMO-Gg

All this reminded me to actually take a deeper look at the draft EIS, which I had been meaning to do but was busy with the Wilmington meet (and then forgot).  I found a couple interesting this.  First, would be this quote on page 67 (3-32) of the alternatives chapter (https://parsonsecmpublic.s3.amazonaws.com/I-81-DEIS/07-2021/03%20Alternatives_July%202021.pdf):
Quote
FHWA and NYSDOT considered other options for the re-designation of the other interstate segments within the project area. These included re-designation of the eastern section of I-690 (between approximately I-81 and I-481) and the I-81 north segment (between I-690 and the northern I-81/I-481 interchange) as I-481. These options were dismissed because they would have caused additional building acquisitions.

I remember speculating that the BL 81 designation had something to do with the removal of constructing the missing ramps at the I-690/I-81 interchange from the project (something else that I'm not quite happy with; Syracuse won't have a freeway system so much as a bunch of freeways that serve their own corridors and tell the other freeways to f*** off).  Seems I was right.  FHWA doesn't like partial interchanges these days.

Appendix A-6 (https://parsonsecmpublic.s3.amazonaws.com/I-81-DEIS/07-2021/Appendix%20A-6_Access%20Modification%20Report_July%202021.pdf) is also interesting, specifically attachment 4, which begins on page 283, with the conceptual signage plans.  It seems that I-81 and BL 81 aren't the only roads getting mile-based exit numbers here; I-690 will as well (perhaps will NY 690 gaining exit numbers?) and NY 481 will also get new numbers (hard to tell from what's shown if they're sequential or mile-based with fudging to avoid a suffix at US 11, but I'm guessing on the latter as everything else is mile-based).  It would have been easy to just make the BL 81 freeway exit 12, West Street exit 11 alone, and the new interchange exit 13, and to leave NY 481 alone, but it seems like that temptation is resisted and Region 3 will be the first to fully convert to mile-based numbers.

Quote from: Rothman on July 14, 2021, 10:35:53 AM
Katko seems more preoccupied with the southern border than I-81 currently.
He seems to be more interested in I-81 than this comment would imply:
https://www.waer.org/news/2021-07-22/rep-katko-encourages-constituents-to-take-advantage-of-i-81-public-comment-period
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on July 22, 2021, 11:18:25 PM
I just want to see how long the court battles are going to be dragged out. I fully expect it will be a while given the amount of money anti-relocation people have in their pockets.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 23, 2021, 12:05:34 AM
Quote from: vdeane on July 22, 2021, 09:59:04 PM
So for anyone interested in commenting on anything, this article (https://www.syracuse.com/state/2021/07/i-81-project-in-syracuse-see-the-entire-2-billion-proposal-with-maps-data-and-more.html) has information about where to submit comments.  The same site also has some information on when different parts of the project will be done (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2021/07/i-81-construction-begins-next-year-but-the-hulking-highway-wont-come-down-for-years.html).  NYSDOT also posted a video with renderings of the business loop:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slIsfAMO-Gg

All this reminded me to actually take a deeper look at the draft EIS, which I had been meaning to do but was busy with the Wilmington meet (and then forgot).  I found a couple interesting this.  First, would be this quote on page 67 (3-32) of the alternatives chapter (https://parsonsecmpublic.s3.amazonaws.com/I-81-DEIS/07-2021/03%20Alternatives_July%202021.pdf):
Quote
FHWA and NYSDOT considered other options for the re-designation of the other interstate segments within the project area. These included re-designation of the eastern section of I-690 (between approximately I-81 and I-481) and the I-81 north segment (between I-690 and the northern I-81/I-481 interchange) as I-481. These options were dismissed because they would have caused additional building acquisitions.
Quote from: Rothman on July 14, 2021, 10:35:53 AM
Katko seems more preoccupied with the southern border than I-81 currently.
He seems to be more interested in I-81 than this comment would imply:
https://www.waer.org/news/2021-07-22/rep-katko-encourages-constituents-to-take-advantage-of-i-81-public-comment-period
Pfft.  Had the DEIS not been released, he'd still be spamming Facebook about the southern border.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 23, 2021, 12:06:24 AM
Quote from: cl94 on July 22, 2021, 11:18:25 PM
I just want to see how long the court battles are going to be dragged out. I fully expect it will be a while given the amount of money anti-relocation people have in their pockets.
Anti-relocation?

So far, legal challenges have been minimal.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: silverback1065 on July 23, 2021, 09:14:15 AM
so they're going with removal and rerouting onto 481?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 23, 2021, 03:14:19 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 23, 2021, 09:14:15 AM
so they're going with removal and rerouting onto 481?
Well, yes...hence the lengthy discussion in the thread.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on July 23, 2021, 04:01:03 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 23, 2021, 12:05:34 AM
Quote from: vdeane on July 22, 2021, 09:59:04 PM
So for anyone interested in commenting on anything, this article (https://www.syracuse.com/state/2021/07/i-81-project-in-syracuse-see-the-entire-2-billion-proposal-with-maps-data-and-more.html) has information about where to submit comments.  The same site also has some information on when different parts of the project will be done (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2021/07/i-81-construction-begins-next-year-but-the-hulking-highway-wont-come-down-for-years.html).  NYSDOT also posted a video with renderings of the business loop:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slIsfAMO-Gg

All this reminded me to actually take a deeper look at the draft EIS, which I had been meaning to do but was busy with the Wilmington meet (and then forgot).  I found a couple interesting this.  First, would be this quote on page 67 (3-32) of the alternatives chapter (https://parsonsecmpublic.s3.amazonaws.com/I-81-DEIS/07-2021/03%20Alternatives_July%202021.pdf):
Quote
FHWA and NYSDOT considered other options for the re-designation of the other interstate segments within the project area. These included re-designation of the eastern section of I-690 (between approximately I-81 and I-481) and the I-81 north segment (between I-690 and the northern I-81/I-481 interchange) as I-481. These options were dismissed because they would have caused additional building acquisitions.
Quote from: Rothman on July 14, 2021, 10:35:53 AM
Katko seems more preoccupied with the southern border than I-81 currently.
He seems to be more interested in I-81 than this comment would imply:
https://www.waer.org/news/2021-07-22/rep-katko-encourages-constituents-to-take-advantage-of-i-81-public-comment-period
Pfft.  Had the DEIS not been released, he'd still be spamming Facebook about the southern border.
Looks like someone is trying really hard to dissuade amroad17, ixnay, and any others from contacting Katko about this without outright saying so.  Gee, I wonder why... perhaps BL 81 was your pet idea and you're afraid that there's even a slight chance that Congress could take that away from you?

(seriously, I'm ~66% sure that BL 81 is your idea given your title and that I'm not sure how else Region 3 would have even known interstate business routes exist, unless FHWA suggested it when it was decided to not build the two missing ramps)

For what it's worth, I explained how things would be designated to Mom and she said it was confusing.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on July 23, 2021, 05:48:46 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Maybe FHWA has recently got a bug up their ass about lack of connections between intersecting Interstates, but out here in CA we have several of these (such as 5/710 in L.A. and all 3 corners of the "Tracy Triangle"), so that particular aversion sounds more like an excuse for suboptimal designation/signage than a rationale for such.  Perhaps some one in NYSDOT made an assumption rather than actually determining whether a "real" 3di Interstate designation for the remainder of present I-81 would be acceptable.  BTW, the concept of relocating I-481 to that section and then subsuming the east part of I-690 -- just because the existing ramps aim in that direction -- seems to be an overly complex solution to a problem that should be relatively simple.  If I-481 is to be redesignated as trunk I-81, the number should be retired and a new designation applied to the northern freeway remainder as needed (why I originally suggested I-681 for that purpose) simply to avoid confusion between the "old" and "new" I-481. 

And applying "green shield"/identical number business loop signage to freeway facililties was and is the dumbest idea since New Coke (funny how both germinated in the early '80's -- misguided/unimaginative minds must think alike!).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 23, 2021, 06:08:11 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 23, 2021, 04:01:03 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 23, 2021, 12:05:34 AM
Quote from: vdeane on July 22, 2021, 09:59:04 PM
So for anyone interested in commenting on anything, this article (https://www.syracuse.com/state/2021/07/i-81-project-in-syracuse-see-the-entire-2-billion-proposal-with-maps-data-and-more.html) has information about where to submit comments.  The same site also has some information on when different parts of the project will be done (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2021/07/i-81-construction-begins-next-year-but-the-hulking-highway-wont-come-down-for-years.html).  NYSDOT also posted a video with renderings of the business loop:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slIsfAMO-Gg

All this reminded me to actually take a deeper look at the draft EIS, which I had been meaning to do but was busy with the Wilmington meet (and then forgot).  I found a couple interesting this.  First, would be this quote on page 67 (3-32) of the alternatives chapter (https://parsonsecmpublic.s3.amazonaws.com/I-81-DEIS/07-2021/03%20Alternatives_July%202021.pdf):
Quote
FHWA and NYSDOT considered other options for the re-designation of the other interstate segments within the project area. These included re-designation of the eastern section of I-690 (between approximately I-81 and I-481) and the I-81 north segment (between I-690 and the northern I-81/I-481 interchange) as I-481. These options were dismissed because they would have caused additional building acquisitions.
Quote from: Rothman on July 14, 2021, 10:35:53 AM
Katko seems more preoccupied with the southern border than I-81 currently.
He seems to be more interested in I-81 than this comment would imply:
https://www.waer.org/news/2021-07-22/rep-katko-encourages-constituents-to-take-advantage-of-i-81-public-comment-period
Pfft.  Had the DEIS not been released, he'd still be spamming Facebook about the southern border.
Looks like someone is trying really hard to dissuade amroad17, ixnay, and any others from contacting Katko about this without outright saying so.  Gee, I wonder why... perhaps BL 81 was your pet idea and you're afraid that there's even a slight chance that Congress could take that away from you?

(seriously, I'm ~66% sure that BL 81 is your idea given your title and that I'm not sure how else Region 3 would have even known interstate business routes exist, unless FHWA suggested it when it was decided to not build the two missing ramps)

For what it's worth, I explained how things would be designated to Mom and she said it was confusing.

Pfft.  The decision predated my time being anywhere near involved with the project by a couple of years, if not more (I-81 has really been underway for about seven years).

I don't care if anyone contacts Katko.  I was merely commenting on the issues that he has recently been distracted by prior to the DEIS and making an indirect comment on them having little to do with Central NY.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on July 23, 2021, 09:22:58 PM
How long has BL 81 been a thing, though?  I don't recall ever seeing it prior to the previous DEIS released a couple years ago.  Before that, it was the boulevard version with full ramp movements and some form of interstate designation, either I-481 over I-690 and I-81 (which strikes me as needlessly complicated), or a new number with a state route extension.  And before that, the viaduct was the preferred alternative.  So from the public understanding at least, BL 81 hasn't been around for most of the project history.

Quote from: sparker on July 23, 2021, 05:48:46 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Maybe FHWA has recently got a bug up their ass about lack of connections between intersecting Interstates, but out here in CA we have several of these (such as 5/710 in L.A. and all 3 corners of the "Tracy Triangle"), so that particular aversion sounds more like an excuse for suboptimal designation/signage than a rationale for such.  Perhaps some one in NYSDOT made an assumption rather than actually determining whether a "real" 3di Interstate designation for the remainder of present I-81 would be acceptable.  BTW, the concept of relocating I-481 to that section and then subsuming the east part of I-690 -- just because the existing ramps aim in that direction -- seems to be an overly complex solution to a problem that should be relatively simple.  If I-481 is to be redesignated as trunk I-81, the number should be retired and a new designation applied to the northern freeway remainder as needed (why I originally suggested I-681 for that purpose) simply to avoid confusion between the "old" and "new" I-481. 

And applying "green shield"/identical number business loop signage to freeway facililties was and is the dumbest idea since New Coke (funny how both germinated in the early '80's -- misguided/unimaginative minds must think alike!).
No, I've heard about the partial interchange thing straight from FHWA (not regarding I-81, but in one of the trainings they periodically held prior to COVID).  Think of it as yet another facet of interstate standards that wasn't much of a thing when the system was first built but has become more strictly enforced over the years (largely due to the issues partial interchanges have caused, especially when an interchange was built as a partial because the missing movements were intended to be handled by a facility that was ultimately never built).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 24, 2021, 12:15:37 AM
Sure, the public hasn't seen BL-81 until more recently, but the decision was made much prior to their knowledge.

Are you not involved in project development, vdeane?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sparker on July 24, 2021, 09:22:19 AM
Quote from: vdeane on July 23, 2021, 09:22:58 PM
How long has BL 81 been a thing, though?  I don't recall ever seeing it prior to the previous DEIS released a couple years ago.  Before that, it was the boulevard version with full ramp movements and some form of interstate designation, either I-481 over I-690 and I-81 (which strikes me as needlessly complicated), or a new number with a state route extension.  And before that, the viaduct was the preferred alternative.  So from the public understanding at least, BL 81 hasn't been around for most of the project history.

Quote from: sparker on July 23, 2021, 05:48:46 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Maybe FHWA has recently got a bug up their ass about lack of connections between intersecting Interstates, but out here in CA we have several of these (such as 5/710 in L.A. and all 3 corners of the "Tracy Triangle"), so that particular aversion sounds more like an excuse for suboptimal designation/signage than a rationale for such.  Perhaps some one in NYSDOT made an assumption rather than actually determining whether a "real" 3di Interstate designation for the remainder of present I-81 would be acceptable.  BTW, the concept of relocating I-481 to that section and then subsuming the east part of I-690 -- just because the existing ramps aim in that direction -- seems to be an overly complex solution to a problem that should be relatively simple.  If I-481 is to be redesignated as trunk I-81, the number should be retired and a new designation applied to the northern freeway remainder as needed (why I originally suggested I-681 for that purpose) simply to avoid confusion between the "old" and "new" I-481. 

And applying "green shield"/identical number business loop signage to freeway facililties was and is the dumbest idea since New Coke (funny how both germinated in the early '80's -- misguided/unimaginative minds must think alike!).
No, I've heard about the partial interchange thing straight from FHWA (not regarding I-81, but in one of the trainings they periodically held prior to COVID).  Think of it as yet another facet of interstate standards that wasn't much of a thing when the system was first built but has become more strictly enforced over the years (largely due to the issues partial interchanges have caused, especially when an interchange was built as a partial because the missing movements were intended to be handled by a facility that was ultimately never built).

Interesting in that none of the "missing movements" here in CA (which also includes 5/505 at Dunnigan) were never, according to Caltrans/DOH records, actually planned.  The NB 5>SB 710 movement has always been accomplished (and trailblazed as such) on Atlantic Avenue (the original alignment of SSR 15/LRN 167, the designations used when the interchange was opened in 1957).  When the I-710 designation for then-CA 7 was applied in 1984, that pair of missing movements apparently didn't faze FHWA, since the actual signage occurred the following year.  Moving north to the "Tracy Triangle", where the series of missing movements actually prevents a driver from circumnavigating the routes; the rationale could be the original (pre-'63) I-5E/5W split that occurred at the southern triangle point, with I-205 taking the place (although featuring a far-field configuration!) of that particular missing movement.  Until its status as a major Bay Area commuter exurb commenced in the late '80's, Tracy was more or less a "sleepy farm town" and RR junction and likely not deemed significant enough to serve with full directional capabilities (even today the prevailing commuter traffic patterns aren't really affected by the lack of those movements).  So it looks like in years past FHWA considered the circumstances and/or environment of each case on an individual basis; why they're "cracking down" and functionally applying a "one size fits all" set of criteria today is a mystery -- unless there's a deliberate internal policy to discourage Interstate designations in cases such as the Syracuse systemic modifications, possibly to avoid or circumvent negative publicity or "backlash" from the more vocal RE/T advocates who, in "knee-jerk" fashion, tend to equate Interstates with past policies and/or DOT practices they oppose.  In short, DOT policies in this regard may well lean toward the "CYA" position, preferring to institute a suboptimal designation just to "put the matter to bed", so to speak; more or less echoing the cliche' "better to ask forgiveness later than permission now" if the BL81 designation proves problematic down the line. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on July 24, 2021, 12:52:39 PM
More uniformity is indeed the trend that I've observed.  Just look at how the MUTCD has evolved in its last couple iterations.  While I could see the current leadership in the federal government pandering to RE/T advocates like that, I don't think the last administration would have, and BL 81 is at least that old as a concept.

Quote from: Rothman on July 24, 2021, 12:15:37 AM
Sure, the public hasn't seen BL-81 until more recently, but the decision was made much prior to their knowledge.

Are you not involved in project development, vdeane?
From the way you talk, it sounds like it might have been made shortly after the boulevard concept went public.  Looks like Region 3 was continuing to work on the grid even as Cuomo chased his tunnel dream.

And no, I'm not hugely involved with project development beyond preparing Smart Growth forms and the RR grade crossing projects that I help out with.  Too low on the totem pole for that!  I've helped out with our HDSB functions (even did most of the job to fill in when that position was between people and when the current person was on leave a few years ago; not sure how that will be going forward, if the pandemic killed off the HPMS field survey for good), was involved with our ADA inventory and transition plan update, and have been on MPO working groups, among other things - largely what a manager who is now retired called "soft planning".  And, of course, we haven't had anything in Region 1 on the level of I-81 through Syracuse in the time I've been with DOT.

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 11, 2021, 09:47:24 PM
I don't want to get too political here, but genuinely curious: is there any chance that anything changes with regards to I-81 with Kathy Hochul replacing Cuomo as governor?

I had a chance to look through some of the plans that vdeane linked to upthread, and I'm disappointed overall, but s-l-o-w-l-y warming up to the I-481 improvements and the idea that the boulevard might be a reality someday. I firmly believe a western bypass (roughly along the NY 173 corridor) is going to be needed and should be seriously evaluated. A four-lane divided NY 695 extension from Fairmount to Nedrow would be ideal.

I've basically concluded that through traffic, including trucks, will try to use the boulevard because it's "only a mile", not realizing that there will be upwards of a dozen signals and poor (relatively speaking) connectivity to I-690. I can tell you right now, when this project is complete and I'm passing through on a trip, I am going to try the boulevard at least a few times, and I'll bet you most others will do the same thing. I submitted two comments online basically restating what I've said here; I'm interested to see if they'll be addressed, but not optimistic that anything will become of them.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 11, 2021, 10:46:52 PM
Nothing will change with Hochul.

People taking the grid will also need to think in 3D as the I-690 ramps will be on Crouse and Irving, offset from Almond, on the shoulder of University Hill.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on August 11, 2021, 11:25:18 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 11, 2021, 10:46:52 PM
Nothing will change with Hochul.

People taking the grid will also need to think in 3D as the I-690 ramps will be on Crouse and Irving, offset from Almond, on the shoulder of University Hill.
I don't think anyone is going to be as bullish in the infrastructure field as Cuomo was, so why do you assert nothing will change?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 11, 2021, 11:27:59 PM
Quote from: Alps on August 11, 2021, 11:25:18 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 11, 2021, 10:46:52 PM
Nothing will change with Hochul.

People taking the grid will also need to think in 3D as the I-690 ramps will be on Crouse and Irving, offset from Almond, on the shoulder of University Hill.
I don't think anyone is going to be as bullish in the infrastructure field as Cuomo was, so why do you assert nothing will change?
Because for whatever reason he/she has made it clear they want the grid option and hope it becomes a reality. That's my guess.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 11, 2021, 11:36:38 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 11, 2021, 11:27:59 PM
Quote from: Alps on August 11, 2021, 11:25:18 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 11, 2021, 10:46:52 PM
Nothing will change with Hochul.

People taking the grid will also need to think in 3D as the I-690 ramps will be on Crouse and Irving, offset from Almond, on the shoulder of University Hill.
I don't think anyone is going to be as bullish in the infrastructure field as Cuomo was, so why do you assert nothing will change?
Because for whatever reason he/she has made it clear they want the grid option and hope it becomes a reality. That's my guess.
Because the plan is set.  Hochul won't rock the boat.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 12, 2021, 05:21:27 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 11, 2021, 11:36:38 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 11, 2021, 11:27:59 PM
Quote from: Alps on August 11, 2021, 11:25:18 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 11, 2021, 10:46:52 PM
Nothing will change with Hochul.

People taking the grid will also need to think in 3D as the I-690 ramps will be on Crouse and Irving, offset from Almond, on the shoulder of University Hill.
I don't think anyone is going to be as bullish in the infrastructure field as Cuomo was, so why do you assert nothing will change?
Because for whatever reason he/she has made it clear they want the grid option and hope it becomes a reality. That's my guess.
Because the plan is set.  Hochul won't rock the boat.
It's a plan. Drawings on paper. The viaduct still stands and is used by thousands every day. Scrap the plan and come up with a new one because the current one sucks.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 12, 2021, 06:41:01 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 12, 2021, 05:21:27 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 11, 2021, 11:36:38 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 11, 2021, 11:27:59 PM
Quote from: Alps on August 11, 2021, 11:25:18 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 11, 2021, 10:46:52 PM
Nothing will change with Hochul.

People taking the grid will also need to think in 3D as the I-690 ramps will be on Crouse and Irving, offset from Almond, on the shoulder of University Hill.
I don't think anyone is going to be as bullish in the infrastructure field as Cuomo was, so why do you assert nothing will change?
Because for whatever reason he/she has made it clear they want the grid option and hope it becomes a reality. That's my guess.
Because the plan is set.  Hochul won't rock the boat.
It's a plan. Drawings on paper. The viaduct still stands and is used by thousands every day. Scrap the plan and come up with a new one because the current one sucks.
You are welcome to submit comments on the DEIS.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 12, 2021, 12:42:44 PM
Yeah, Hochul's not going to rock the boat on this.  This is a bit too far along, and it would provoke outrage among the people in Syracuse and activists in the Democratic base who are looking forward to the viaduct coming down.  Given that Hochul's record already makes her vulnerable to a primary challenge come next year, I doubt she'd do anything to scrap this unless the political winds change.

The Skyway removal is probably dead, though.  At this point, about the only person who actually supports that is Cuomo.  Even the congressman who was pushing it turned against the plan when Cuomo started supporting the "Cloudwalk" concept for re-using most of the structure (rather than actually removing it).  Plus the community would rather attention go towards the Kensington and the Scajaquada right now.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 12, 2021, 12:47:33 PM
I just think everyone is mad in Syracuse no matter what side they're on, so that would keep any unexpectedly incoming Governor to make sweeping changes to chosen directions.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 12, 2021, 12:53:36 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 12, 2021, 12:42:44 PM
Yeah, Hochul's not going to rock the boat on this.  This is a bit too far along, and it would provoke outrage among the people in Syracuse and activists in the Democratic base who are looking forward to the viaduct coming down.  Given that Hochul's record already makes her vulnerable to a primary challenge come next year, I doubt she'd do anything to scrap this unless the political winds change.

The Skyway removal is probably dead, though.  At this point, about the only person who actually supports that is Cuomo.  Even the congressman who was pushing it turned against the plan when Cuomo started supporting the "Cloudwalk" concept for re-using most of the structure (rather than actually removing it).  Plus the community would rather attention go towards the Kensington and the Scajaquada right now.
One small factor maybe that Hochul got her bachelors from SU, and probably is very familiar with the highway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 12, 2021, 01:20:48 PM


Quote from: kalvado on August 12, 2021, 12:53:36 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 12, 2021, 12:42:44 PM
Yeah, Hochul's not going to rock the boat on this.  This is a bit too far along, and it would provoke outrage among the people in Syracuse and activists in the Democratic base who are looking forward to the viaduct coming down.  Given that Hochul's record already makes her vulnerable to a primary challenge come next year, I doubt she'd do anything to scrap this unless the political winds change.

The Skyway removal is probably dead, though.  At this point, about the only person who actually supports that is Cuomo.  Even the congressman who was pushing it turned against the plan when Cuomo started supporting the "Cloudwalk" concept for re-using most of the structure (rather than actually removing it).  Plus the community would rather attention go towards the Kensington and the Scajaquada right now.
One small factor maybe that Hochul got her bachelors from SU, and probably is very familiar with the highway.

The bigger factors, if she was in favor of replacement, would be the need to scrap the entire EIS process (when the major public hearing is next week), start all over again, wasting the millions spent already, ticking off the people that want the thing torn down, needing to find a few hundred million in additional funding (when phase 1 isn't even on the STIP yet) and delaying construction of phase 1 that is to begin next year.  She would be basically creating a huge headache that no semi-unelected new governor would want.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 12, 2021, 02:10:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 12, 2021, 01:20:48 PM


Quote from: kalvado on August 12, 2021, 12:53:36 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 12, 2021, 12:42:44 PM
Yeah, Hochul's not going to rock the boat on this.  This is a bit too far along, and it would provoke outrage among the people in Syracuse and activists in the Democratic base who are looking forward to the viaduct coming down.  Given that Hochul's record already makes her vulnerable to a primary challenge come next year, I doubt she'd do anything to scrap this unless the political winds change.

The Skyway removal is probably dead, though.  At this point, about the only person who actually supports that is Cuomo.  Even the congressman who was pushing it turned against the plan when Cuomo started supporting the "Cloudwalk" concept for re-using most of the structure (rather than actually removing it).  Plus the community would rather attention go towards the Kensington and the Scajaquada right now.
One small factor maybe that Hochul got her bachelors from SU, and probably is very familiar with the highway.

The bigger factors, if she was in favor of replacement, would be the need to scrap the entire EIS process (when the major public hearing is next week), start all over again, wasting the millions spent already, ticking off the people that want the thing torn down, needing to find a few hundred million in additional funding (when phase 1 isn't even on the STIP yet) and delaying construction of phase 1 that is to begin next year.  She would be basically creating a huge headache that no semi-unelected new governor would want.
Let me shorten it.
<business as usual in NY>
Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 12, 2021, 03:26:42 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 12, 2021, 02:10:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 12, 2021, 01:20:48 PM


Quote from: kalvado on August 12, 2021, 12:53:36 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 12, 2021, 12:42:44 PM
Yeah, Hochul's not going to rock the boat on this.  This is a bit too far along, and it would provoke outrage among the people in Syracuse and activists in the Democratic base who are looking forward to the viaduct coming down.  Given that Hochul's record already makes her vulnerable to a primary challenge come next year, I doubt she'd do anything to scrap this unless the political winds change.

The Skyway removal is probably dead, though.  At this point, about the only person who actually supports that is Cuomo.  Even the congressman who was pushing it turned against the plan when Cuomo started supporting the "Cloudwalk" concept for re-using most of the structure (rather than actually removing it).  Plus the community would rather attention go towards the Kensington and the Scajaquada right now.
One small factor maybe that Hochul got her bachelors from SU, and probably is very familiar with the highway.

The bigger factors, if she was in favor of replacement, would be the need to scrap the entire EIS process (when the major public hearing is next week), start all over again, wasting the millions spent already, ticking off the people that want the thing torn down, needing to find a few hundred million in additional funding (when phase 1 isn't even on the STIP yet) and delaying construction of phase 1 that is to begin next year.  She would be basically creating a huge headache that no semi-unelected new governor would want.
Let me shorten it.
<business as usual in NY>
Am I missing something?
Yes:  An understanding of the federal project process and the consequences of changing direction too late in preliminary design on highly complex projects.

It's not just NY politics, but the federal framework pressuring politicians' decisionmaking.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 12, 2021, 03:29:31 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 12, 2021, 03:26:42 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 12, 2021, 02:10:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 12, 2021, 01:20:48 PM


Quote from: kalvado on August 12, 2021, 12:53:36 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 12, 2021, 12:42:44 PM
Yeah, Hochul's not going to rock the boat on this.  This is a bit too far along, and it would provoke outrage among the people in Syracuse and activists in the Democratic base who are looking forward to the viaduct coming down.  Given that Hochul's record already makes her vulnerable to a primary challenge come next year, I doubt she'd do anything to scrap this unless the political winds change.

The Skyway removal is probably dead, though.  At this point, about the only person who actually supports that is Cuomo.  Even the congressman who was pushing it turned against the plan when Cuomo started supporting the "Cloudwalk" concept for re-using most of the structure (rather than actually removing it).  Plus the community would rather attention go towards the Kensington and the Scajaquada right now.
One small factor maybe that Hochul got her bachelors from SU, and probably is very familiar with the highway.

The bigger factors, if she was in favor of replacement, would be the need to scrap the entire EIS process (when the major public hearing is next week), start all over again, wasting the millions spent already, ticking off the people that want the thing torn down, needing to find a few hundred million in additional funding (when phase 1 isn't even on the STIP yet) and delaying construction of phase 1 that is to begin next year.  She would be basically creating a huge headache that no semi-unelected new governor would want.
Let me shorten it.
<business as usual in NY>
Am I missing something?
Yes:  An understanding of the federal project process and the consequences of changing direction too late in preliminary design on highly complex projects.

It's not just NY politics, but the federal framework pressuring politicians' decisionmaking.
Well, then let's hope things work the way you expect and dirt starts moving before viaduct collapse!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Flyer78 on August 13, 2021, 10:02:31 AM
Per the Syracuse Post Standard DOT released some more videos at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdauzvEu1kffaQEsW39AeIZTx961huno9

Also linked is the project website, https://webapps.dot.ny.gov/i-81-viaduct-project

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 13, 2021, 03:24:57 PM
Quote from: Flyer78 on August 13, 2021, 10:02:31 AM
Per the Syracuse Post Standard DOT released some more videos at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdauzvEu1kffaQEsW39AeIZTx961huno9

Also linked is the project website, https://webapps.dot.ny.gov/i-81-viaduct-project
Yep.  Has the open house and local neighborhood meeting schedule on there, too.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TheDon102 on August 13, 2021, 04:41:46 PM
Obviously the grid is gonna be chosen, but its not 100% a done deal. Especially if the community would prefer the elevated option.

Question, why not just make this a depressed freeway and cap it?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 13, 2021, 04:44:58 PM
Quote from: TheDon102 on August 13, 2021, 04:41:46 PM
Obviously the grid is gonna be chosen, but its not 100% a done deal. Especially if the community would prefer the elevated option.

Question, why not just make this a depressed freeway and cap it?
Community does prefer demolishing the elevated option.
And we discussed suppressed/tunnel options. Quick summary: Nope.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TheDon102 on August 13, 2021, 04:57:00 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2021, 04:44:58 PM
Quote from: TheDon102 on August 13, 2021, 04:41:46 PM
Obviously the grid is gonna be chosen, but its not 100% a done deal. Especially if the community would prefer the elevated option.

Question, why not just make this a depressed freeway and cap it?
Community does prefer demolishing the elevated option.
And we discussed suppressed/tunnel options. Quick summary: Nope.

I'm just making a guess here, but is it not possible due to connections to I-690?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 13, 2021, 04:58:29 PM
Quote from: TheDon102 on August 13, 2021, 04:57:00 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2021, 04:44:58 PM
Quote from: TheDon102 on August 13, 2021, 04:41:46 PM
Obviously the grid is gonna be chosen, but its not 100% a done deal. Especially if the community would prefer the elevated option.

Question, why not just make this a depressed freeway and cap it?
Community does prefer demolishing the elevated option.
And we discussed suppressed/tunnel options. Quick summary: Nope.

I'm just making a guess here, but is it not possible due to connections to I-690?
Feel free to read this thread. It's not that long, just 1000 posts.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on August 13, 2021, 06:01:14 PM
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/04/why-the-i-81-tunnel-lost-out-and-the-grid-prevailed.html

"The option would mean the acquisition of 17 buildings -- 12 of them historical, the analysis says. A tunnel would mean severing many city streets instead of further linking downtown with the University Hill area. It would cost an extra $16.5 million a year to maintain."

"But it was the cost and construction time — an estimated $4.9 billion and 11 years — that prompted state officials to call the idea "unreasonable."

"But already, officials say they've looked at 20 different variations of a tunnel."

Also:

"State officials made another key decision when it comes to grid vs. anything else: they decided not to build a full interchange between that grid business loop and I-690.

It's a decision that means no new towering ramps near Franklin Square, one of the few criticisms from many here who supported the grid. It also means a savings of $90 million."
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 13, 2021, 09:22:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 13, 2021, 04:44:58 PM
Quote from: TheDon102 on August 13, 2021, 04:41:46 PM
Obviously the grid is gonna be chosen, but its not 100% a done deal. Especially if the community would prefer the elevated option.

Question, why not just make this a depressed freeway and cap it?
Community does prefer demolishing the elevated option.
And we discussed suppressed/tunnel options. Quick summary: Nope.
Meh.  Community's divided and mad.  We'll see what happens on Thursday.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 11:06:29 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 16, 2021, 09:31:12 PM
Yeah, I don't get this obsession with removing the part that remains a freeway from the interstate system.  I noticed this in the project goals:

Quote
Maintain or enhance vehicle access to the interstate highway network and key destinations (i.e., business districts, hospitals, and institutions) within neighborhoods within and near Downtown Syracuse.

Apparently everyone who uses I-81 between the I-481 interchanges but isn't going to/from downtown Syracuse is not important.  How about the interstate connectivity of everyone going from Rochester/Buffalo to the 1000 Islands, eastern Ontario, and Québec?  It sucks that the "only the individual corridor matters, not what it means for the connectivity and continuity of the rest of the system" attitude that I've complained at length about with respect to Canada has infected NY.  I'm starting to think that if the people who are in charge of DOTs today were around in the 1950s, we would never have gotten an interstate system - we would only have gotten relocated US routes, and the lower traffic corridors might not have gotten anything at all beyond perhaps bypasses for the towns.  The red, white, and blue shield we all know and love would never have existed.

And yeah, I agree about the downgrade in the alternatives.  I liked the original one better than what we have now.

(personal opinion)
OK, to make things clear: what portions of I-81 in Syracuse will be gone and which will stay. From what I am seeing, the only city pair that will be negatively affected is Rochester-NYC. Buffalo-NYC traffic doesn't even go through Syracuse.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on August 13, 2021, 11:13:19 PM
^ Buffalo to NYC uses the exact same route as Rochester to NYC... It just joins the Thruway further west...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on August 13, 2021, 11:26:02 PM
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/06/5-things-to-know-about-how-i-481-would-become-i-81-near-syracuse.html
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 11:47:49 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 13, 2021, 11:26:02 PM
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/06/5-things-to-know-about-how-i-481-would-become-i-81-near-syracuse.html
Looks like the part of I-81 north of the Thruway will still be a freeway just numbered differently.

Quote from: sprjus4 on August 13, 2021, 11:13:19 PM
^ Buffalo to NYC uses the exact same route as Rochester to NYC... It just joins the Thruway further west...
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Buffalo,+NY/New+York,+NY/@42.2964056,-76.3975838,8z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89d3126152dfe5a1:0x982304a5181f8171!2m2!1d-78.8783689!2d42.8864468!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c24fa5d33f083b:0xc80b8f06e177fe62!2m2!1d-74.0059728!2d40.7127753!3e0

The Thruway is not used, the fastest route is 20A-390-86.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: SkyPesos on August 13, 2021, 11:55:30 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 13, 2021, 11:26:02 PM
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/06/5-things-to-know-about-how-i-481-would-become-i-81-near-syracuse.html
So they're calling the entire (soon to be former) I-81 between the two I-481 junctions as Business 81... I thought that at least the I-481 number would be reused on the I-690 to I-81/NY 481 section, a local street name on the section with the freeway removed, then a new x81 (thinking I-381) between the southern end of the removed freeway and I-81. Not sure on how others think, but I dislike business interstates being signed on long freeway stretches. Either give it a 3di or a state route number.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 14, 2021, 12:45:07 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 13, 2021, 11:55:30 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 13, 2021, 11:26:02 PM
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/06/5-things-to-know-about-how-i-481-would-become-i-81-near-syracuse.html
So they're calling the entire (soon to be former) I-81 between the two I-481 junctions as Business 81... I thought that at least the I-481 number would be reused on the I-690 to I-81/NY 481 section, a local street name on the section with the freeway removed, then a new x81 (thinking I-381) between the southern end of the removed freeway and I-81. Not sure on how others think, but I dislike business interstates being signed on long freeway stretches. Either give it a 3di or a state route number.
Not a fan of it but I guess it makes it simpler.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on August 14, 2021, 08:42:25 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 11:47:49 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Buffalo,+NY/New+York,+NY/@42.2964056,-76.3975838,8z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89d3126152dfe5a1:0x982304a5181f8171!2m2!1d-78.8783689!2d42.8864468!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c24fa5d33f083b:0xc80b8f06e177fe62!2m2!1d-74.0059728!2d40.7127753!3e0

The Thruway is not used, the fastest route is 20A-390-86.
From Downtown, the route you mention is the exact same travel time as I-90 / I-81. It may be preferred over the long, two lane section of US-20A.

Additionally, anywhere in all the northern suburbs, it's faster to take I-90 / I-81.

So yes, the removal of I-81 in Syracuse will have an impact to Buffalo / NYC traffic.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on August 14, 2021, 08:45:07 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 13, 2021, 11:26:02 PM
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/06/5-things-to-know-about-how-i-481-would-become-i-81-near-syracuse.html
Of course, the proper solution to improve I-481 to accommodate significantly increased traffic volumes along with future projections would be an expansion from 4 to 6 lanes throughout, plus the currently proposed auxiliary lanes where needed.

But that would cost too much money... say, maybe, the additional costs needed to reconstruct the I-81 viaduct?

It seems to me, without proper expansion of I-481, traffic will increase significantly on that route and with congestion becoming more commonplace due to lack of proper capacity.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 14, 2021, 09:12:28 AM
This thread has come full circle now.  People should just read the 1,000 posts.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 14, 2021, 09:14:05 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 11:47:49 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 13, 2021, 11:26:02 PM
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/06/5-things-to-know-about-how-i-481-would-become-i-81-near-syracuse.html
Looks like the part of I-81 north of the Thruway will still be a freeway just numbered differently.

Quote from: sprjus4 on August 13, 2021, 11:13:19 PM
^ Buffalo to NYC uses the exact same route as Rochester to NYC... It just joins the Thruway further west...
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Buffalo,+NY/New+York,+NY/@42.2964056,-76.3975838,8z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89d3126152dfe5a1:0x982304a5181f8171!2m2!1d-78.8783689!2d42.8864468!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c24fa5d33f083b:0xc80b8f06e177fe62!2m2!1d-74.0059728!2d40.7127753!3e0

The Thruway is not used, the fastest route is 20A-390-86.
Pfft.  I still doubt many people go that way.

I also wonder how many people go from Syracuse, Rochester and Buffalo down to the City.  I would think it pales in comparison to Albany.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 14, 2021, 09:14:58 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 13, 2021, 11:26:02 PM
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/06/5-things-to-know-about-how-i-481-would-become-i-81-near-syracuse.html
Egads.  That article is two years old.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on August 14, 2021, 09:58:36 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 14, 2021, 08:45:07 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 13, 2021, 11:26:02 PM
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/06/5-things-to-know-about-how-i-481-would-become-i-81-near-syracuse.html
Of course, the proper solution to improve I-481 to accommodate significantly increased traffic volumes along with future projections would be an expansion from 4 to 6 lanes throughout, plus the currently proposed auxiliary lanes where needed.

But that would cost too much money... say, maybe, the additional costs needed to reconstruct the I-81 viaduct?

It seems to me, without proper expansion of I-481, traffic will increase significantly on that route and with congestion becoming more commonplace due to lack of proper capacity.


Even with rerouted traffic, the entire I-481 route does not need to be 6 lanes.  It's just not that busy, especially north of the Thruway.  While IMO the current plan for auxiliary lanes falls short, you would really only need 6 lanes between NY 5/92 and the Thruway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 14, 2021, 10:37:05 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 14, 2021, 09:14:05 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 11:47:49 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 13, 2021, 11:13:19 PM
^ Buffalo to NYC uses the exact same route as Rochester to NYC... It just joins the Thruway further west...
...
The Thruway is not used, the fastest route is 20A-390-86.
Pfft.  I still doubt many people go that way.

I also wonder how many people go from Syracuse, Rochester and Buffalo down to the City.  I would think it pales in comparison to Albany.

It's basically identical time-wise, and I-81/I-90 is faster to the northern suburbs (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/NYC,+NY/Amherst,+NY/@41.788742,-78.3263839,7.25z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c24fa5d33f083b:0xc80b8f06e177fe62!2m2!1d-74.0059728!2d40.7127753!1m5!1m1!1s0x89d3724da88354b3:0xd481fd9c25afd0ad!2m2!1d-78.792272!2d42.9790067!3e0) and Niagara Falls (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/NYC,+NY/Niagara+Falls,+NY/@42.1176271,-78.6676128,7.25z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c24fa5d33f083b:0xc80b8f06e177fe62!2m2!1d-74.0059728!2d40.7127753!1m5!1m1!1s0x89d363ea29e633b7:0x61975ae4b9c5aab3!2m2!1d-79.0377388!2d43.0962143!3e0). Google doesn't even recommend US 20A as an option for those points. And even for Buffalo itself, anyone with any aversion to two-lane roads whatsoever is going to opt for I-81/I-90. Also (Roadgeekteen, just FYI since you may not know this), trucks are banned from US 20A in Warsaw, so all truck traffic would likely use I-81/I-90. Another option for trucks is I-390 to NY 36/NY 63, but it's all two-lane between I-390 and the Thruway, so it's not a great option.

And that's not to mention Canada - most of the truck traffic from there is also going to end up on I-90 because of the same issue with 20A. You'll see plenty of trucks with Ontario plates on the southern half of I-390, but I suspect most of those are going to/from PA/MD and points further south, not NYC/NJ/CT.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 14, 2021, 10:38:10 AM
One of the main obstacles to three-laning 481 is the bridge over the railyards between the Thruway and I-690.

It was decided that major interchange improvements were enough to handle the anticipated traffic.

Really, turning I-481 into I-81 isn't a real major concern.  As discussed extensively above, it's accomodating the west-to-south movement, especially as communities west of Syracuse are vehemently opposed to increased truck traffic.  Surprisingly, I attended a public meeting for Homer officials that didn't seem as concerned (to the south, where trucks may decide to rejoin I-81).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 14, 2021, 10:39:17 AM
Quote from: webny99 on August 14, 2021, 10:37:05 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 14, 2021, 09:14:05 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 13, 2021, 11:47:49 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 13, 2021, 11:13:19 PM
^ Buffalo to NYC uses the exact same route as Rochester to NYC... It just joins the Thruway further west...
...
The Thruway is not used, the fastest route is 20A-390-86.
Pfft.  I still doubt many people go that way.

I also wonder how many people go from Syracuse, Rochester and Buffalo down to the City.  I would think it pales in comparison to Albany.

It's basically identical time-wise, and I-81/I-90 is faster to the northern suburbs (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/NYC,+NY/Amherst,+NY/@41.788742,-78.3263839,7.25z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c24fa5d33f083b:0xc80b8f06e177fe62!2m2!1d-74.0059728!2d40.7127753!1m5!1m1!1s0x89d3724da88354b3:0xd481fd9c25afd0ad!2m2!1d-78.792272!2d42.9790067!3e0) and Niagara Falls (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/NYC,+NY/Niagara+Falls,+NY/@42.1176271,-78.6676128,7.25z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c24fa5d33f083b:0xc80b8f06e177fe62!2m2!1d-74.0059728!2d40.7127753!1m5!1m1!1s0x89d363ea29e633b7:0x61975ae4b9c5aab3!2m2!1d-79.0377388!2d43.0962143!3e0). Google doesn't even recommend US 20A as an option for those points. And even for Buffalo itself, anyone with any aversion to two-lane roads whatsoever is going to opt for I-81/I-90. Also, trucks are banned from US 20A in Warsaw, so all truck traffic would likely use I-81/I-90 (I-390 to NY 36/NY 63 is an option, but not a great one).

And that's not to mention Canada - most of the truck traffic from there is also going to end up on I-90 because of the same issue with 20A. You'll see plenty of trucks with Ontario plates on the southern half of I-390, but I suspect most of those are going to/from PA/MD and points further south, not NYC/NJ/CT.
Trucks were taking NY 63 for a while.  I haven't heard concerns about that "shortcut" in five years or so, though.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 14, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
Quote from: froggie on August 14, 2021, 09:58:36 AM
Even with rerouted traffic, the entire I-481 route does not need to be 6 lanes.  It's just not that busy, especially north of the Thruway.  While IMO the current plan for auxiliary lanes falls short, you would really only need 6 lanes between NY 5/92 and the Thruway.

It's not that busy now, but it remains to be seen what it will be like with the new traffic patterns..

With that said, though, doesn't the plan now basically provide 6 lanes from NY 5/92 to the Thruway? The only exception I can see is SB from the Thruway to Kirkville Rd - only a mile or so, and there will be a NB auxiliary lane on that segment.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on August 14, 2021, 11:00:32 AM
^ I was referring to post-construction.  In all likelihood given that existing I-81 remains intact north of 690 (and is actually improved from 690 to 370), traffic patterns will not change much north of the Thruway.

I was under the impression that the auxiliary lanes would not continue through the Kirkville Rd interchange...one of the shortcomings I have noted previously.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 14, 2021, 11:44:01 AM
The plans that vdeane linked to show an auxiliary lane NB but not SB. It would enter from Kirkville Rd. and exit to the Thruway, so it wouldn't technically be a "through" lane.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 14, 2021, 11:49:12 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 14, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
Quote from: froggie on August 14, 2021, 09:58:36 AM
Even with rerouted traffic, the entire I-481 route does not need to be 6 lanes.  It's just not that busy, especially north of the Thruway.  While IMO the current plan for auxiliary lanes falls short, you would really only need 6 lanes between NY 5/92 and the Thruway.

It's not that busy now, but it remains to be seen what it will be like with the new traffic patterns..

With that said, though, doesn't the plan now basically provide 6 lanes from NY 5/92 to the Thruway? The only exception I can see is SB from the Thruway to Kirkville Rd - only a mile or so, and there will be a NB auxiliary lane on that segment.
Oh, it's busy.  The speed limit on that road is 65, but traffic often is stuck at 60.  Normally, I drive 72 in 65 zones, but getting to that speed is basically impossible on I-481.  And that's with the traffic as it is now.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on August 15, 2021, 03:07:16 PM
I watched some of the video simulations released this past week, and it was much easier to visualize the plans seeing them rendered in 3D. Having both driven in and seen rush hour traffic in Syracuse, I have to say that the traffic simulations seemed on the light side.  I did get a kick out of the fact that the viaduct option showed a backup during the afternoon rush hour on I-481 southbound at NY 5/92.  The backups I've experienced there were after the first exit ramp, but the simulation showed the backup before the first ramp.

In the downtown area, I was surprised to see how wide the viaduct ROW would be.  I was under the impression that the ramps would be closer together, but they looked to take up the width of an entire city block!  I always thought the acquisitions needed would be to increase the radii of the curves.  With the Community Grid simulation, I thought downtown traffic was especially light.  I've driven in downtown Syracuse at various times through the day, and it seems to be busier than the simulation unless it's later in the evening.

Quote from: vdeane on August 14, 2021, 11:49:12 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 14, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
Quote from: froggie on August 14, 2021, 09:58:36 AM
Even with rerouted traffic, the entire I-481 route does not need to be 6 lanes.  It's just not that busy, especially north of the Thruway.  While IMO the current plan for auxiliary lanes falls short, you would really only need 6 lanes between NY 5/92 and the Thruway.

It's not that busy now, but it remains to be seen what it will be like with the new traffic patterns..

With that said, though, doesn't the plan now basically provide 6 lanes from NY 5/92 to the Thruway? The only exception I can see is SB from the Thruway to Kirkville Rd - only a mile or so, and there will be a NB auxiliary lane on that segment.
Oh, it's busy.  The speed limit on that road is 65, but traffic often is stuck at 60.  Normally, I drive 72 in 65 zones, but getting to that speed is basically impossible on I-481.  And that's with the traffic as it is now.

During the evening rush hour heading southbound between I-690 and NY 5/92, I normally find traffic is going 55 MPH.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 15, 2021, 06:03:54 PM


Quote from: vdeane on August 14, 2021, 11:49:12 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 14, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
Quote from: froggie on August 14, 2021, 09:58:36 AM
Even with rerouted traffic, the entire I-481 route does not need to be 6 lanes.  It's just not that busy, especially north of the Thruway.  While IMO the current plan for auxiliary lanes falls short, you would really only need 6 lanes between NY 5/92 and the Thruway.

It's not that busy now, but it remains to be seen what it will be like with the new traffic patterns..

With that said, though, doesn't the plan now basically provide 6 lanes from NY 5/92 to the Thruway? The only exception I can see is SB from the Thruway to Kirkville Rd - only a mile or so, and there will be a NB auxiliary lane on that segment.
Oh, it's busy.  The speed limit on that road is 65, but traffic often is stuck at 60.  Normally, I drive 72 in 65 zones, but getting to that speed is basically impossible on I-481.  And that's with the traffic as it is now.

Pfft.  No, it isn't.  I drive on the section between I-690 and the Thruway frequently and haven't had much trouble out of the ordinary.  There's some minor traffic at rush hour and getting out on Fridays, but it's pretty tame.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 15, 2021, 07:54:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 15, 2021, 06:03:54 PM


Quote from: vdeane on August 14, 2021, 11:49:12 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 14, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
Quote from: froggie on August 14, 2021, 09:58:36 AM
Even with rerouted traffic, the entire I-481 route does not need to be 6 lanes.  It's just not that busy, especially north of the Thruway.  While IMO the current plan for auxiliary lanes falls short, you would really only need 6 lanes between NY 5/92 and the Thruway.

It's not that busy now, but it remains to be seen what it will be like with the new traffic patterns..

With that said, though, doesn't the plan now basically provide 6 lanes from NY 5/92 to the Thruway? The only exception I can see is SB from the Thruway to Kirkville Rd - only a mile or so, and there will be a NB auxiliary lane on that segment.
Oh, it's busy.  The speed limit on that road is 65, but traffic often is stuck at 60.  Normally, I drive 72 in 65 zones, but getting to that speed is basically impossible on I-481.  And that's with the traffic as it is now.

Pfft.  No, it isn't.  I drive on the section between I-690 and the Thruway frequently and haven't had much trouble out of the ordinary.  There's some minor traffic at rush hour and getting out on Fridays, but it's pretty tame.
I cannot say that I've ever experienced free-flow conditions on I-481 between NY 5 and the Thruway, except perhaps early on a Sunday morning.  Heck, on my last drive, I never managed to get above 65 at any point, and I've found that's fairly typical.  Now, I'm not on the road during rush hour - more like mid-day.  Now, Syracuse locals do tend to drive slower in 65 zones than I would, so maybe that's why it feels fine to you.  I have similar issues on I-81 too, but I-81 has room to maneuver around the slowpokes.  I-481 doesn't.

Now, most people DO tend to have more of a "go with the flow" attitude towards speed than I do.  I'm the type that wants to go a certain speed for a certain speed limit unless the roadway geometry or weather conditions dictate otherwise, so I tend to get annoyed whenever my speed is instead dictated by how fast the person in front of me is going.  This leads to a unique effect where I go from being one of the faster cars on the road to one of the slower ones where I-81 drops to 55 mph.  This effect happens everywhere, but it does seem to be more pronounced around Syracuse as Region 3 has raised more of their suburban freeway network to 65 than the other urban regions have.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 15, 2021, 08:15:35 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 15, 2021, 07:54:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 15, 2021, 06:03:54 PM


Quote from: vdeane on August 14, 2021, 11:49:12 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 14, 2021, 10:45:19 AM
Quote from: froggie on August 14, 2021, 09:58:36 AM
Even with rerouted traffic, the entire I-481 route does not need to be 6 lanes.  It's just not that busy, especially north of the Thruway.  While IMO the current plan for auxiliary lanes falls short, you would really only need 6 lanes between NY 5/92 and the Thruway.

It's not that busy now, but it remains to be seen what it will be like with the new traffic patterns..

With that said, though, doesn't the plan now basically provide 6 lanes from NY 5/92 to the Thruway? The only exception I can see is SB from the Thruway to Kirkville Rd - only a mile or so, and there will be a NB auxiliary lane on that segment.
Oh, it's busy.  The speed limit on that road is 65, but traffic often is stuck at 60.  Normally, I drive 72 in 65 zones, but getting to that speed is basically impossible on I-481.  And that's with the traffic as it is now.

Pfft.  No, it isn't.  I drive on the section between I-690 and the Thruway frequently and haven't had much trouble out of the ordinary.  There's some minor traffic at rush hour and getting out on Fridays, but it's pretty tame.
I cannot say that I've ever experienced free-flow conditions on I-481 between NY 5 and the Thruway, except perhaps early on a Sunday morning.  Heck, on my last drive, I never managed to get above 65 at any point, and I've found that's fairly typical.  Now, I'm not on the road during rush hour - more like mid-day.  Now, Syracuse locals do tend to drive slower in 65 zones than I would, so maybe that's why it feels fine to you.  I have similar issues on I-81 too, but I-81 has room to maneuver around the slowpokes.  I-481 doesn't.

Now, most people DO tend to have more of a "go with the flow" attitude towards speed than I do.  I'm the type that wants to go a certain speed for a certain speed limit unless the roadway geometry or weather conditions dictate otherwise, so I tend to get annoyed whenever my speed is instead dictated by how fast the person in front of me is going.  This leads to a unique effect where I go from being one of the faster cars on the road to one of the slower ones where I-81 drops to 55 mph.  This effect happens everywhere, but it does seem to be more pronounced around Syracuse as Region 3 has raised more of their suburban freeway network to 65 than the other urban regions have.

No, I get up to 75 regularly on I-481 on that section.  The idea you can't get above 65 just doesn't pan out in my much more frequent experience with the stretch of I-481.  Free-flow is common.

I'm more concerned about the northeast arm of I-481.  There, a little more congestion is more common.

And hey, concerning the rush hour congestion at 5/92, just don't live in Fayetteville.  It's to Syracuse what Clifton Park is to Albany... :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 15, 2021, 11:12:53 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 14, 2021, 11:49:12 PM
Oh, it's busy. The speed limit on that road is 65, but traffic often is stuck at 60.  Normally, I drive 72 in 65 zones, but getting to that speed is basically impossible on I-481.  And that's with the traffic as it is now.

That actually sounds a lot like the four-lane section of I-490 east of Rochester. Usually bearable, but the third lane is a big relief in both directions.


Quote from: vdeane on August 14, 2021, 11:49:12 PM
This leads to a unique effect where I go from being one of the faster cars on the road to one of the slower ones where I-81 drops to 55 mph.  This effect happens everywhere, but it does seem to be more pronounced around Syracuse as Region 3 has raised more of their suburban freeway network to 65 than the other urban regions have.

Syracuse does seem to have a surprising amount of 65 mph on their freeway network. I-690 between the Thruway and the Fairgrounds, in particular, is one of the more aggressive segments posted at 65 mph. Come to think of it, it's pretty crazy that I-690 is 65 mph while I-290 is stuck at 55 mph. 

Rochester, on the other hand, doesn't have many that are a surprise except for maybe NY 531 and the aforementioned section of I-490 (because it's so old/narrow and traffic usually slows right where the limit increases thanks to the lane drop).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 15, 2021, 11:17:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 15, 2021, 08:15:35 PM
I'm more concerned about the northeast arm of I-481.  There, a little more congestion is more common.

The section north of the Thruway? Whereabouts, exactly? I've never heard of any problems on that section and traffic volumes are also lower than the Thruway to NY 5/92.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 15, 2021, 11:22:12 PM


Quote from: webny99 on August 15, 2021, 11:17:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 15, 2021, 08:15:35 PM
I'm more concerned about the northeast arm of I-481.  There, a little more congestion is more common.

The section north of the Thruway? Whereabouts, exactly? I've never heard of any problems on that section and traffic volumes are also lower than the Thruway to NY 5/92.

Up there before and after the bend.  Traffic at rush hour is sort of just under the congestion cusp.  I do wonder if the conversion will push it over the edge during rush hour.

5/92's always going to be an issue due to people getting to the shopping centers in Fayetteville and commuters, so some more traffic there will just blend into expectations.  Up north?  That might get people ticked due to it being more surprising.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 16, 2021, 07:51:14 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 15, 2021, 11:22:12 PM
5/92's always going to be an issue due to people getting to the shopping centers in Fayetteville and commuters, so some more traffic there will just blend into expectations.  Up north?  That might get people ticked due to it being more surprising.

The main issue with NY 5/92 seems to be the SB to EB loop in the afternoon, correct? That is going to be addressed with this project - the loop will be removed and that movement will occur from the current SB to WB ramp, which will be modified to allow a triple left turn. There aren't many triple lefts around, but the one in the Rochester area (I-490 EB to NY 441) handles volumes that are probably pretty similar if not higher, and seems to work well.

I would think the redesigned I-81/I-481 interchange in the north would alleviate any congestion issues there, but then I can see how the improved flow onto I-481 could create problems at Exits 7 and 8. We shall see...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 16, 2021, 09:15:10 AM
Yeah, we'll see how that triple left works.  Going to be some adjusting to get used to which lane you need to be in to go where.  I still think congestion in the interchange's vicinity will be an issue.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on August 19, 2021, 08:11:50 PM
I saw this on Syracuse.com the other day: Destiny USA hires former Federal Highway Administration lawyer to fight I-81 plan (https://www.syracuse.com/state/2021/08/destiny-usa-hires-former-federal-highway-administration-lawyer-to-fight-i-81-plan.html)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 19, 2021, 08:14:33 PM
Quote from: Michael on August 19, 2021, 08:11:50 PM
I saw this on Syracuse.com the other day: Destiny USA hires former Federal Highway Administration lawyer to fight I-81 plan (https://www.syracuse.com/state/2021/08/destiny-usa-hires-former-federal-highway-administration-lawyer-to-fight-i-81-plan.html)
I don't believe Destiny USA showed up at the hearings yesterday.  Not sure.  From what I heard, they were uneventful.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on August 19, 2021, 08:17:14 PM
It was mentioned in another thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29335.msg2650769#msg2650769) that AASHTO has posted the route applications for this latest round of Interstate/U.S./USBR changes.  Worth noting that, per NYSDOT's applications on I-81/I-481, they intend to have things changed by the spring of 2027.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 19, 2021, 09:50:46 PM
Quote from: froggie on August 19, 2021, 08:17:14 PM
It was mentioned in another thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29335.msg2650769#msg2650769) that AASHTO has posted the route applications for this latest round of Interstate/U.S./USBR changes.  Worth noting that, per NYSDOT's applications on I-81/I-481, they intend to have things changed by the spring of 2027.

That's odd.  Wasn't it mentioned that the projects on I-481 were supposed to happen first?  Wouldn't it be logical for the designation change to happen right after that?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on August 19, 2021, 10:41:56 PM
Stranger things have happened where NYSDOT is involved...

Yes, I recall something along those lines was mentioned, and it makes sense to get the I-481 stuff done first.  But that doesn't mean NYSDOT will move I-81 over right away....it's entirely plausible that they will build everything along 481 and just pull a NCDOT and slap I-81 overlays on the signage when they actually make the change.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 19, 2021, 10:46:19 PM
Quote from: froggie on August 19, 2021, 10:41:56 PM
Yes, I recall something along those lines was mentioned, and it makes sense to get the I-481 stuff done first.  But that doesn't mean NYSDOT will move I-81 over right away....it's entirely plausible that they will build everything along 481 and just pull a NCDOT and slap I-81 overlays on the signage when they actually make the change.

I sure hope not. Given that I-81 is going to be renumbered with mileage-based exits, I would hope they just do it properly and switch I-81 to the new alignment with new signage as soon as the improvements are complete before even touching anything downtown.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 21, 2021, 11:23:29 AM
Yeah, it's going to need to be re-signed after the I-481 improvements anyways.  May as well do it once rather than twice.

Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on August 21, 2021, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2021, 11:23:29 AM
Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 21, 2021, 12:41:55 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 21, 2021, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2021, 11:23:29 AM
Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)
The article is biased and presents mainly a slanted suburban perspective of a single commuter citizen.

I attended the hearing.  The majority of comments were pro-grid, especially from the elected officials and other community leaders.  Even those from the suburbs said "I am for the grid, but could you improve X in the plan" kinds of comments.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 21, 2021, 12:45:45 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 21, 2021, 12:41:55 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 21, 2021, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2021, 11:23:29 AM
Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)
The article is biased and presents mainly a slanted suburban perspective of a single commuter citizen.

I attended the hearing.  The majority of comments were pro-grid, especially from the elected officials and other community leaders.  Even those from the suburbs said "I am for the grid, but could you improve X in the plan" kinds of comments.
Stage V - acceptance.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 21, 2021, 12:48:30 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 21, 2021, 12:45:45 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 21, 2021, 12:41:55 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 21, 2021, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2021, 11:23:29 AM
Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)
The article is biased and presents mainly a slanted suburban perspective of a single commuter citizen.

I attended the hearing.  The majority of comments were pro-grid, especially from the elected officials and other community leaders.  Even those from the suburbs said "I am for the grid, but could you improve X in the plan" kinds of comments.
Stage V - acceptance.
The real opposition seems to be playing out as the Destiny USA lawsuit...if that doesn't just fizzle out.  Not sure what changes that lawsuit would cause -- meaning, I doubt much, if any, given FHWA and NYSDOT's authority and the NEPA and SEQR requirements.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 21, 2021, 01:10:32 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 21, 2021, 12:48:30 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 21, 2021, 12:45:45 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 21, 2021, 12:41:55 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 21, 2021, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2021, 11:23:29 AM
Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)
The article is biased and presents mainly a slanted suburban perspective of a single commuter citizen.

I attended the hearing.  The majority of comments were pro-grid, especially from the elected officials and other community leaders.  Even those from the suburbs said "I am for the grid, but could you improve X in the plan" kinds of comments.
Stage V - acceptance.
The real opposition seems to be playing out as the Destiny USA lawsuit...if that doesn't just fizzle out.  Not sure what changes that lawsuit would cause -- meaning, I doubt much, if any, given FHWA and NYSDOT's authority and the NEPA and SEQR requirements.
I don't really understand what the real opposition is at this point.
Most locals who follow the issue probably accepted that grid is going to happen, and the best bet is for that to happen before viaduct collapses.  Denying that basically excludes them from discussion. So, given the grid - what are my best options?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 21, 2021, 01:15:05 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 21, 2021, 12:41:55 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 21, 2021, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2021, 11:23:29 AM
Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)
The article is biased and presents mainly a slanted suburban perspective of a single commuter citizen.

I attended the hearing.  The majority of comments were pro-grid, especially from the elected officials and other community leaders.  Even those from the suburbs said "I am for the grid, but could you improve X in the plan" kinds of comments.
Of course the most vocal crowd at town hall meetings regarding transportation infrastructure especially in a state that is majority Democrat will likely be anything that is anti freeway especially in this case. Most of the comments submitted were against the grid on the public comment period and in person at the town hall hearing they were for it. Then you have others trying to convince people by saying eventually they'll just have to accept it.

Hopefully a miracle comes through and the grid is option is done away in a favor if the more sensible alternative.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 21, 2021, 02:20:36 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 21, 2021, 01:15:05 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 21, 2021, 12:41:55 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 21, 2021, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2021, 11:23:29 AM
Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)
The article is biased and presents mainly a slanted suburban perspective of a single commuter citizen.

I attended the hearing.  The majority of comments were pro-grid, especially from the elected officials and other community leaders.  Even those from the suburbs said "I am for the grid, but could you improve X in the plan" kinds of comments.
Of course the most vocal crowd at town hall meetings regarding transportation infrastructure especially in a state that is majority Democrat will likely be anything that is anti freeway especially in this case. Most of the comments submitted were against the grid on the public comment period and in person at the town hall hearing they were for it. Then you have others trying to convince people by saying eventually they'll just have to accept it.

Hopefully a miracle comes through and the grid is option is done away in a favor if the more sensible alternative.
Given the comments I heard, anti-freeway sentiment or hyperbolic New Urbanist mantras were minimal.  The first public comment at the hearing was from an older gentleman who went on a very short rant about the project being all about "social justice" and implied heavily that was a bad thing but didn't explain why (and therefore, his comment will be easily dismissed).  The rest were quite reasonable.

Also, the public comment period isn't even over yet, so I don't know where you're getting your information from...unless you're talking about outreach done a couple of years ago or more, which really no longer has a bearing.  What matters now are the comments received during this period and through the hearings and neighborhood meetings on the DEIS.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 21, 2021, 03:19:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 21, 2021, 02:20:36 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 21, 2021, 01:15:05 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 21, 2021, 12:41:55 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 21, 2021, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2021, 11:23:29 AM
Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)
The article is biased and presents mainly a slanted suburban perspective of a single commuter citizen.

I attended the hearing.  The majority of comments were pro-grid, especially from the elected officials and other community leaders.  Even those from the suburbs said "I am for the grid, but could you improve X in the plan" kinds of comments.
Of course the most vocal crowd at town hall meetings regarding transportation infrastructure especially in a state that is majority Democrat will likely be anything that is anti freeway especially in this case. Most of the comments submitted were against the grid on the public comment period and in person at the town hall hearing they were for it. Then you have others trying to convince people by saying eventually they'll just have to accept it.

Hopefully a miracle comes through and the grid is option is done away in a favor if the more sensible alternative.
Given the comments I heard, anti-freeway sentiment or hyperbolic New Urbanist mantras were minimal.  The first public comment at the hearing was from an older gentleman who went on a very short rant about the project being all about "social justice" and implied heavily that was a bad thing but didn't explain why (and therefore, his comment will be easily dismissed).  The rest were quite reasonable.

Also, the public comment period isn't even over yet, so I don't know where you're getting your information from...unless you're talking about outreach done a couple of years ago or more, which really no longer has a bearing.  What matters now are the comments received during this period and through the hearings and neighborhood meetings on the DEIS.
Not sure really what else to say. The social justice remediation aspect of this could be solved by a tunnel but then somehow we can't do what tons of other countries around the world can do because it is too expensive. So then according to city leaders the only option is to downgrade the corridor back to a street and shove the current traffic on additional facilities. I disagree and still have yet to submit a comment but I will draft one today now that I'm thinking about it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 21, 2021, 03:51:14 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 21, 2021, 03:19:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 21, 2021, 02:20:36 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 21, 2021, 01:15:05 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 21, 2021, 12:41:55 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 21, 2021, 11:44:18 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2021, 11:23:29 AM
Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)
The article is biased and presents mainly a slanted suburban perspective of a single commuter citizen.

I attended the hearing.  The majority of comments were pro-grid, especially from the elected officials and other community leaders.  Even those from the suburbs said "I am for the grid, but could you improve X in the plan" kinds of comments.
Of course the most vocal crowd at town hall meetings regarding transportation infrastructure especially in a state that is majority Democrat will likely be anything that is anti freeway especially in this case. Most of the comments submitted were against the grid on the public comment period and in person at the town hall hearing they were for it. Then you have others trying to convince people by saying eventually they'll just have to accept it.

Hopefully a miracle comes through and the grid is option is done away in a favor if the more sensible alternative.
Given the comments I heard, anti-freeway sentiment or hyperbolic New Urbanist mantras were minimal.  The first public comment at the hearing was from an older gentleman who went on a very short rant about the project being all about "social justice" and implied heavily that was a bad thing but didn't explain why (and therefore, his comment will be easily dismissed).  The rest were quite reasonable.

Also, the public comment period isn't even over yet, so I don't know where you're getting your information from...unless you're talking about outreach done a couple of years ago or more, which really no longer has a bearing.  What matters now are the comments received during this period and through the hearings and neighborhood meetings on the DEIS.
Not sure really what else to say. The social justice remediation aspect of this could be solved by a tunnel but then somehow we can't do what tons of other countries around the world can do because it is too expensive. So then according to city leaders the only option is to downgrade the corridor back to a street and shove the current traffic on additional facilities. I disagree and still have yet to submit a comment but I will draft one today now that I'm thinking about it.
Sure.  A decent number of comments were about the configuration of Almond Avenue, desiring a narrower boulevard -- one downtown development association outright said they wanted Almond to be narrower so there was more surplus land to develop.

I am really not hopeful that any resurrection of the old residential neighborhood will be possible given existing buildings and establishments in the area.  But, people are suggesting ways of making the grid work for them, I suppose.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 21, 2021, 06:24:34 PM
I would think the in-person comments would skew heavily in favor of the grid, while comments submitted online would skew heavily in favor of rebuilding the viaduct. Most of the people giving that care about the regional impact don't live in Syracuse, after all.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 21, 2021, 07:05:04 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 21, 2021, 06:24:34 PM
I would think the in-person comments would skew heavily in favor of the grid, while comments submitted online would skew heavily in favor of rebuilding the viaduct. Most of the people giving that care about the regional impact don't live in Syracuse, after all.
We shall see. :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 21, 2021, 07:08:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 21, 2021, 06:24:34 PM
I would think the in-person comments would skew heavily in favor of the grid, while comments submitted online would skew heavily in favor of rebuilding the viaduct. Most of the people giving that care about the regional impact don't live in Syracuse, after all.
This might be unpopular but I would value the opinion of Syracuse residents more than others as the highway does go through their city.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 22, 2021, 10:40:08 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 21, 2021, 07:08:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 21, 2021, 06:24:34 PM
I would think the in-person comments would skew heavily in favor of the grid, while comments submitted online would skew heavily in favor of rebuilding the viaduct. Most of the people giving that care about the regional impact don't live in Syracuse, after all.
This might be unpopular but I would value the opinion of Syracuse residents more than others as the highway does go through their city.
Supporting NIMBY? That is popular opinion over here! And a very divisive one. Just for lulz:
If it is their city, why cannot they fund their city budget? 58% of combined city+city school district budget was state aid  before covid - over $3k per resident. Signed: NYS taxpayer

In a grand scheme of things, there is one thing Syracuse needs more than a highway (or removal of a highwayI. Like many other rust belt cities, Syracuse needs economic future. And i am surprised that is not discussed in I-81 context.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 22, 2021, 11:14:25 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 21, 2021, 07:08:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 21, 2021, 06:24:34 PM
I would think the in-person comments would skew heavily in favor of the grid, while comments submitted online would skew heavily in favor of rebuilding the viaduct. Most of the people giving that care about the regional impact don't live in Syracuse, after all.
This might be unpopular but I would value the opinion of Syracuse residents more than others as the highway does go through their city.
Right so with that logic let's have a nationwide referendum so each city can decide it if it wants to keep their freeway or remove it and see how that works out.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on August 22, 2021, 12:32:21 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 22, 2021, 10:40:08 AM
In a grand scheme of things, there is one thing Syracuse needs more than a highway (or removal of a highwayI. Like many other rust belt cities, Syracuse needs economic future. And i am surprised that is not discussed in I-81 context.

Well, the entire point of removal is to drive up land values in an attempt to spur gentrification. That's...part of it, but without employers, it will just result in concentration of wealth while the rest of the region declines (like we have seen elsewhere in Upstate NY). Need to be careful what I say here, but it is a topic I know a decent amount about.

(Personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 22, 2021, 01:36:57 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 22, 2021, 11:14:25 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 21, 2021, 07:08:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 21, 2021, 06:24:34 PM
I would think the in-person comments would skew heavily in favor of the grid, while comments submitted online would skew heavily in favor of rebuilding the viaduct. Most of the people giving that care about the regional impact don't live in Syracuse, after all.
This might be unpopular but I would value the opinion of Syracuse residents more than others as the highway does go through their city.
Right so with that logic let's have a nationwide referendum so each city can decide it if it wants to keep their freeway or remove it and see how that works out.
That's a bit silly, most of the freeways residents don't like are in downtowns. Also people in Syracuse probably wouldn't care if it takes someone from NYC an extra 7 minutes to get to Rochester.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on August 22, 2021, 01:43:08 PM
I mean, if we're basing off that logic, let's demolish I-35 through Austin. Or I-345 in Dallas. Add I-30 and I-35E to that mix as well. I-10/35 through San Antonio? Demolish it. I-37? Demolish it. I-10, I-45, and I-69 through Houston? Demolish them.

Every urban highway, let's just demolish. If we're going to "value the opinion of residents"  who don't even use these highways are through routes let alone use the highway on a daily basis.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 22, 2021, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 22, 2021, 01:43:08 PM
I mean, if we're basing off that logic, let's demolish I-35 through Austin. Or I-345 in Dallas. Add I-30 and I-35E to that mix as well. I-10/35 through San Antonio? Demolish it. I-37? Demolish it. I-10, I-45, and I-69 through Houston? Demolish them.

Every urban highway, let's just demolish. If we're going to "value the opinion of residents"  who don't even use these highways are through routes let alone use the highway on a daily basis.
Well the point is I-81 is going to fall apart anyway so the real question is if we should rebuild it or not.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 22, 2021, 03:59:05 PM
But when you think about it, it's pretty bizarre that there is even a question of whether to rebuild it.

In 49 other states, it wouldn't even be a question. It's a major cross-country interstate that's integral for truckers, locals, commuters, and long-distance traffic. There's no suitable alternate between south and west. I'm not saying the locals shouldn't have their say, but of course you should rebuild it!

Like I said, 49 other states would have identified that from the jump and saved the years and years of hand-wringing about something that should not even be up for debate.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 22, 2021, 04:35:13 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 22, 2021, 03:59:05 PM
But when you think about it, it's pretty bizarre that there is even a question of whether to rebuild it.

In 49 other states, it wouldn't even be a question. It's a major cross-country interstate that's integral for truckers, locals, commuters, and long-distance traffic. There's no suitable alternate between south and west. I'm not saying the locals shouldn't have their say, but of course you should rebuild it!

Like I said, 49 other states would have identified that from the jump and saved the years and years of hand-wringing about something that should not even be up for debate.
How much would it cost to rebuild it? Also won't there still be a road in downtown Syracuse, just not an interstate? How much time would it add for any long-distance traffic?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on August 22, 2021, 04:39:36 PM
Through traffic would have to add 7-10 minutes to follow I-481 and I-690, depending on traffic conditions.

The rebuild plan would only cost around $200 million more than the grid (which is expensive on its own), and given I-481 will inevitably have to be further widened in the future to 6 lanes throughout to make up for the added traffic, that cost will end up being spent anyways. Either that, or eventual construction of a western bypass.

Might as well do it right and rebuild / replace the viaduct. But I guess since some Syracuse residents will be happy, we'll waste it on a grid and even more expenditure later on I-481 widening and/or a western bypass.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 22, 2021, 04:42:04 PM
What about a tunnel through downtown Syracuse like the Big Dig? Also what benefits could the grid potentially have? And does 7-10 minutes really matter much in a 5 or 6-hour trip?


(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 22, 2021, 05:04:06 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 22, 2021, 01:43:08 PM
I mean, if we're basing off that logic, let's demolish I-35 through Austin. Or I-345 in Dallas. Add I-30 and I-35E to that mix as well. I-10/35 through San Antonio? Demolish it. I-37? Demolish it. I-10, I-45, and I-69 through Houston? Demolish them.

Every urban highway, let's just demolish. If we're going to "value the opinion of residents"  who don't even use these highways are through routes let alone use the highway on a daily basis.
Remove all freeways around DTLA, I-235 through OKC, I-25 through Denver, I-5 through Seattle, I mean I can go on and on. Hell all we have to do reroute traffic on other roads no big deal. How many people use I-81 a day again and how many people are against it?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 22, 2021, 05:05:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 22, 2021, 04:39:36 PM
Through traffic would have to add 7-10 minutes to follow I-481 and I-690, depending on traffic conditions.

The rebuild plan would only cost around $200 million more than the grid (which is expensive on its own), and given I-481 will inevitably have to be further widened in the future to 6 lanes throughout to make up for the added traffic, that cost will end up being spent anyways. Either that, or eventual construction of a western bypass.

Might as well do it right and rebuild / replace the viaduct. But I guess since some Syracuse residents will be happy, we'll waste it on a grid and even more expenditure later on I-481 widening and/or a western bypass.
"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 22, 2021, 05:06:53 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 22, 2021, 04:42:04 PM
What about a tunnel through downtown Syracuse like the Big Dig? Also what benefits could the grid potentially have? And does 7-10 minutes really matter much in a 5 or 6-hour trip?


(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here)
What rock have you been living under?  Tunnel was considered and thrown out long ago.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 22, 2021, 05:07:21 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 22, 2021, 03:59:05 PM
But when you think about it, it's pretty bizarre that there is even a question of whether to rebuild it.

In 49 other states, it wouldn't even be a question.

Like I said, 49 other states would have identified that from the jump and saved the years and years of hand-wringing about something that should not even be up for debate.
Not that I disagree with your point because I don't but I wonder in regards to rebuilding urban interstates how many freeways in California would be rebuilt if the big one hit. There would no doubt be a massive campaign to not rebuild certain freeways if they collapsed or needed major rebuilds. Hopefully they won't succeed but California will experience another major damaging earthquake one day.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 22, 2021, 05:08:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 22, 2021, 05:06:53 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 22, 2021, 04:42:04 PM
What about a tunnel through downtown Syracuse like the Big Dig? Also what benefits could the grid potentially have? And does 7-10 minutes really matter much in a 5 or 6-hour trip?


(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here)
What rock have you been living under?  Tunnel was considered and thrown out long ago.
Lol I believe I told someone that on this forum before and was scolded by either a mod or another poster I can't remember. That's funny.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 22, 2021, 05:09:22 PM
Neighborhood meeting:

https://youtu.be/V-OYKd8SVrI
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 22, 2021, 08:44:43 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 22, 2021, 04:42:04 PM
What about a tunnel through downtown Syracuse like the Big Dig? Also what benefits could the grid potentially have? And does 7-10 minutes really matter much in a 5 or 6-hour trip?


(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here)

All of that has been addressed extensively in the ~40 pages of this thread.

The tunnel, in particular, is much too involved and expensive - not even in the same ballpark as the other two options.

7-10 minutes isn't the end of the world, but it's enough to make traffic consider taking the grid, which would make traffic downtown even worse, or take a two-lane alternate such as NY 41 to US 20, which the communities on those routes (Skaneateles in particular) are NOT happy about.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on August 22, 2021, 08:48:19 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 22, 2021, 05:05:03 PM
"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.
Unless NYSDOT does the bare minimum (which it appears is the case) and plan for no further improvements, there is going to be an eventual need to widen I-481 to 6 lanes + auxiliary lanes through, plus a reasonable case for constructing a western bypass to replace the movement that I-81 currently provides.

All of those improvements together will likely add up to those additional costs "saved"  in the long run, or near it.

There's a strong case for replacing the viaduct when looking at the system as a whole, or at the very least, constructing these other improvements to handle the diverted traffic.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 22, 2021, 09:29:18 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 22, 2021, 08:48:19 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 22, 2021, 05:05:03 PM
"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.
Unless NYSDOT does the bare minimum (which it appears is the case) and plan for no further improvements, there is going to be an eventual need to widen I-481 to 6 lanes + auxiliary lanes through, plus a reasonable case for constructing a western bypass to replace the movement that I-81 currently provides.

All of those improvements together will likely add up to those additional costs "saved"  in the long run, or near it.

There's a strong case for replacing the viaduct when looking at the system as a whole, or at the very least, constructing these other improvements to handle the diverted traffic.
*shrug*

Feel free to submit a comment.

I don't think I-481 will need to be expanded anytime soon with the community grid option given current socioeconomic trends.

The western bypass is a more intriguing notion, though, especially as Skaneateles recommends measures to prevent truck traffic through that southwest quadrant -- some of which, in my personal opinion, NYSDOT is already starting to implement.  Going to be much more interesting to watch what happens on NY 41 and 41A, the Seneca Turnpike and in Homer in future years (going to be a long, long while before we see impacts -- shoot, I may be retired by then).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on August 23, 2021, 12:31:50 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 22, 2021, 05:06:53 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 22, 2021, 04:42:04 PM
What about a tunnel through downtown Syracuse like the Big Dig? Also what benefits could the grid potentially have? And does 7-10 minutes really matter much in a 5 or 6-hour trip?


(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here)
What rock have you been living under?  Tunnel was considered and thrown out long ago.
BE NICE.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 23, 2021, 02:03:04 AM
Quote from: Alps on August 23, 2021, 12:31:50 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 22, 2021, 05:06:53 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 22, 2021, 04:42:04 PM
What about a tunnel through downtown Syracuse like the Big Dig? Also what benefits could the grid potentially have? And does 7-10 minutes really matter much in a 5 or 6-hour trip?


(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here)
What rock have you been living under?  Tunnel was considered and thrown out long ago.
BE NICE.
Eh it's kinda my fault I read through all 40 pages quickly
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on August 23, 2021, 10:19:52 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 22, 2021, 08:48:19 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 22, 2021, 05:05:03 PM
"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.
Unless NYSDOT does the bare minimum (which it appears is the case) and plan for no further improvements, there is going to be an eventual need to widen I-481 to 6 lanes + auxiliary lanes through, plus a reasonable case for constructing a western bypass to replace the movement that I-81 currently provides.

All of those improvements together will likely add up to those additional costs "saved"  in the long run, or near it.

There's a strong case for replacing the viaduct when looking at the system as a whole, or at the very least, constructing these other improvements to handle the diverted traffic.

I think we are overestimating how little traffic I-81 actually carries. It's never carried high AADT counts north of Syracuse, through the city, or south towards Binghamton. I-481 is well under capacity with the exception of a few choke points by the Thruway. The area is simply not growing or has essentially flat-lined with population.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 10:36:46 AM
Quote from: seicer on August 23, 2021, 10:19:52 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 22, 2021, 08:48:19 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 22, 2021, 05:05:03 PM
"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.
Unless NYSDOT does the bare minimum (which it appears is the case) and plan for no further improvements, there is going to be an eventual need to widen I-481 to 6 lanes + auxiliary lanes through, plus a reasonable case for constructing a western bypass to replace the movement that I-81 currently provides.

All of those improvements together will likely add up to those additional costs "saved"  in the long run, or near it.

There's a strong case for replacing the viaduct when looking at the system as a whole, or at the very least, constructing these other improvements to handle the diverted traffic.

I think we are overestimating how little traffic I-81 actually carries. It's never carried high AADT counts north of Syracuse, through the city, or south towards Binghamton. I-481 is well under capacity with the exception of a few choke points by the Thruway. The area is simply not growing or has essentially flat-lined with population.
Those that have to take the ramps at Adams/Harrison during rush hour would disagree (both NB and SB).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 23, 2021, 10:43:42 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 10:36:46 AM
Quote from: seicer on August 23, 2021, 10:19:52 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 22, 2021, 08:48:19 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 22, 2021, 05:05:03 PM
"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.
Unless NYSDOT does the bare minimum (which it appears is the case) and plan for no further improvements, there is going to be an eventual need to widen I-481 to 6 lanes + auxiliary lanes through, plus a reasonable case for constructing a western bypass to replace the movement that I-81 currently provides.

All of those improvements together will likely add up to those additional costs "saved"  in the long run, or near it.

There's a strong case for replacing the viaduct when looking at the system as a whole, or at the very least, constructing these other improvements to handle the diverted traffic.

I think we are overestimating how little traffic I-81 actually carries. It's never carried high AADT counts north of Syracuse, through the city, or south towards Binghamton. I-481 is well under capacity with the exception of a few choke points by the Thruway. The area is simply not growing or has essentially flat-lined with population.
Those that have to take the ramps at Adams/Harrison during rush hour would disagree (both NB and SB).
This is more about local traffic vs long haul, especially transit traffic.
Local traffic may be numerous, but will redistribute and adjust, depending on starting point and destination. Question is how much of that traffic would shift on the new alignment (potentially requiring widening),  and who would be just using new options.
Long haul traffic, as we discussed, is not that plentiful - although some directions are affected more than others.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 10:50:16 AM
Quote from: kalvado on August 23, 2021, 10:43:42 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 10:36:46 AM
Quote from: seicer on August 23, 2021, 10:19:52 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 22, 2021, 08:48:19 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 22, 2021, 05:05:03 PM
"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.
Unless NYSDOT does the bare minimum (which it appears is the case) and plan for no further improvements, there is going to be an eventual need to widen I-481 to 6 lanes + auxiliary lanes through, plus a reasonable case for constructing a western bypass to replace the movement that I-81 currently provides.

All of those improvements together will likely add up to those additional costs "saved"  in the long run, or near it.

There's a strong case for replacing the viaduct when looking at the system as a whole, or at the very least, constructing these other improvements to handle the diverted traffic.

I think we are overestimating how little traffic I-81 actually carries. It's never carried high AADT counts north of Syracuse, through the city, or south towards Binghamton. I-481 is well under capacity with the exception of a few choke points by the Thruway. The area is simply not growing or has essentially flat-lined with population.
Those that have to take the ramps at Adams/Harrison during rush hour would disagree (both NB and SB).
This is more about local traffic vs long haul, especially transit traffic.
Local traffic may be numerous, but will redistribute and adjust, depending on starting point and destination. Question is how much of that traffic would shift on the new alignment (potentially requiring widening),  and who would be just using new options.
Long haul traffic, as we discussed, is not that plentiful - although some directions are affected more than others.

The hope is that local traffic will use the new ramps to be built at Crouse and Irving if coming from I-690.

One concern I have is that the parking for Upstate and the like is positioned on Almond Ave and vicinity as is.  That will cause a lot of commuters to have to come down from I-690 and make a turn or two to get to the garages.  I know city street improvements are coming (including the obvious extension of Irving), but I do wonder how commuting traffic will be on the actual grid itself once things are all said and done.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 23, 2021, 10:57:33 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 10:50:16 AM
Quote from: kalvado on August 23, 2021, 10:43:42 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 10:36:46 AM
Quote from: seicer on August 23, 2021, 10:19:52 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 22, 2021, 08:48:19 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 22, 2021, 05:05:03 PM
"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.
Unless NYSDOT does the bare minimum (which it appears is the case) and plan for no further improvements, there is going to be an eventual need to widen I-481 to 6 lanes + auxiliary lanes through, plus a reasonable case for constructing a western bypass to replace the movement that I-81 currently provides.

All of those improvements together will likely add up to those additional costs "saved"  in the long run, or near it.

There's a strong case for replacing the viaduct when looking at the system as a whole, or at the very least, constructing these other improvements to handle the diverted traffic.

I think we are overestimating how little traffic I-81 actually carries. It's never carried high AADT counts north of Syracuse, through the city, or south towards Binghamton. I-481 is well under capacity with the exception of a few choke points by the Thruway. The area is simply not growing or has essentially flat-lined with population.
Those that have to take the ramps at Adams/Harrison during rush hour would disagree (both NB and SB).
This is more about local traffic vs long haul, especially transit traffic.
Local traffic may be numerous, but will redistribute and adjust, depending on starting point and destination. Question is how much of that traffic would shift on the new alignment (potentially requiring widening),  and who would be just using new options.
Long haul traffic, as we discussed, is not that plentiful - although some directions are affected more than others.

The hope is that local traffic will use the new ramps to be built at Crouse and Irving if coming from I-690.

One concern I have is that the parking for Upstate and the like is positioned on Almond Ave and vicinity as is.  That will cause a lot of commuters to have to come down from I-690 and make a turn or two to get to the garages.  I know city street improvements are coming (including the obvious extension of Irving), but I do wonder how commuting traffic will be on the actual grid itself once things are all said and done.

Talking about that... I don't quite know Syracuse enough to understand local traffic. I just realized I am thinking about "local traffic" as "traffic coming from the south along I-81", probably because thats where I drove most. However, road was never busy, and there is a whole lot of nothing on the map.
Where are most populated suburbs located in Syracuse, is that along 690?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 11:03:17 AM


Quote from: kalvado on August 23, 2021, 10:57:33 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 10:50:16 AM
Quote from: kalvado on August 23, 2021, 10:43:42 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 10:36:46 AM
Quote from: seicer on August 23, 2021, 10:19:52 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 22, 2021, 08:48:19 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 22, 2021, 05:05:03 PM
"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.
Unless NYSDOT does the bare minimum (which it appears is the case) and plan for no further improvements, there is going to be an eventual need to widen I-481 to 6 lanes + auxiliary lanes through, plus a reasonable case for constructing a western bypass to replace the movement that I-81 currently provides.

All of those improvements together will likely add up to those additional costs "saved"  in the long run, or near it.

There's a strong case for replacing the viaduct when looking at the system as a whole, or at the very least, constructing these other improvements to handle the diverted traffic.

I think we are overestimating how little traffic I-81 actually carries. It's never carried high AADT counts north of Syracuse, through the city, or south towards Binghamton. I-481 is well under capacity with the exception of a few choke points by the Thruway. The area is simply not growing or has essentially flat-lined with population.
Those that have to take the ramps at Adams/Harrison during rush hour would disagree (both NB and SB).
This is more about local traffic vs long haul, especially transit traffic.
Local traffic may be numerous, but will redistribute and adjust, depending on starting point and destination. Question is how much of that traffic would shift on the new alignment (potentially requiring widening),  and who would be just using new options.
Long haul traffic, as we discussed, is not that plentiful - although some directions are affected more than others.

The hope is that local traffic will use the new ramps to be built at Crouse and Irving if coming from I-690.

One concern I have is that the parking for Upstate and the like is positioned on Almond Ave and vicinity as is.  That will cause a lot of commuters to have to come down from I-690 and make a turn or two to get to the garages.  I know city street improvements are coming (including the obvious extension of Irving), but I do wonder how commuting traffic will be on the actual grid itself once things are all said and done.

Talking about that... I don't quite know Syracuse enough to understand local traffic. I just realized I am thinking about "local traffic" as "traffic coming from the south along I-81", probably because thats where I drove most. However, road was never busy, and there is a whole lot of nothing on the map.
Where are most populated suburbs located in Syracuse, is that along 690?

I'd say Fayetteville, Cicero/Clay, Salina/Camillus/Fairmount...there's not much to the south in terms of suburbs separate from the City, but the southern end of Syracuse (the Valley and points south) functions a sort of suburb of its own. 

I am uncertain how many people come in from the likes of Baldwinsville or Fulton, although I know one person from each that does.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Henry on August 23, 2021, 11:06:23 AM
If Syracuse has been on the decline for years, the reroute should be done with little to no problem (especially when the traffic counts on I-81 were never high to begin with). The community grid will be another thing, but if done right, it will be a great benefit to the city as a whole.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 11:36:35 AM
I-481 carries between 30,000 - 50,000 AADT.

I-81 carries around 70,000 AADT near Downtown.

There's going to be an impact traffic wise, regardless. And it's not "all local"  traffic. There's movements to/from I-690/90 West, and also I-81 North. I'd argue the biggest loss would be to/from the west, more than anything. The re-routed movement quite literally takes you due east, then back west again, like a U. Perhaps if a western bypass existed, it wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem.

The problem with this project is failure to consider regional impacts. And then there's suburb commuters that would also be affected, if not going to Downtown directly.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on August 23, 2021, 12:18:28 PM
Syracuse is oriented more east-west for suburban growth. There isn't much development to the south because of the topography and reservation.

Also not sure where you are getting your numbers.

I-81 south of Syracuse: 36420, rising to 40100 north of I-481 and 35794 near downtown
I-81 north of Syracuse, which generally isn't changing: 41770, declining to 37873 near the Thruway and rising to 41765 north of I-481
I-481 south of Syracuse: 29203; north of Syracuse: 32532; east of Syracuse: 46351

I can't find anything from NYSDOT that pings I-81 at 70,000 AADT or I-481 at 50,000 AADT.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 23, 2021, 12:19:49 PM
Quote from: seicer on August 23, 2021, 10:19:52 AM
I think we are overestimating how little traffic I-81 actually carries. It's never carried high AADT counts north of Syracuse, through the city, or south towards Binghamton. I-481 is well under capacity with the exception of a few choke points by the Thruway. The area is simply not growing or has essentially flat-lined with population.

I think you mean overestimating how much traffic?

In any case, while the region is far from booming, Syracuse's population increased at the 2020 census for the first time in 70 years. The suburbs are also growing, albeit slowly. Onondaga County as a whole grew by 2%.

I-81 carries plenty of traffic north of the city. It's 6 lanes from downtown Syracuse up to NY 49 at Central Square, which is actually one of the longest six lane sections in all of upstate.

The reason traffic seems light south of downtown is because there's not much in the way of suburbs. Once you get south of I-481, it's basically all long-distance traffic, coming to/from Cortland, Binghamton, or further.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 23, 2021, 12:42:47 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 23, 2021, 10:43:42 AM
This is more about local traffic vs long haul, especially transit traffic.
...
Long haul traffic, as we discussed, is not that plentiful - although some directions are affected more than others.

Not to go down this road again, but I find this narrative about long-haul traffic to be baffling, bordering on incomprehensible. It's a misunderstanding/misrepresentation of the entire interstate system to suggest that a 2di at a major crossroads isn't significant for long haul traffic. What road is important for long-distance traffic if not a major cross-country 2di at a major regional crossroads?



Quote from: kalvado on August 23, 2021, 10:57:33 AM
I don't quite know Syracuse enough to understand local traffic. I just realized I am thinking about "local traffic" as "traffic coming from the south along I-81", probably because thats where I drove most. However, road was never busy, and there is a whole lot of nothing on the map.
Where are most populated suburbs located in Syracuse, is that along 690?

Yes, mostly north (along I-81) and west (along I-690). You've also got DeWitt/Fayetteville on the east side, but those areas already take I-481 to points north and south and I-690 to access downtown, so they won't be affected except by the increased traffic on I-481.

The western suburbs, though, are another story. It shouldn't be understated how much they will lose out in terms of connectivity to points south. It's unreasonable to expect traffic from the suburbs to go all the way to I-481 and loop back around to get to Cortland/Binghamton - they are going to end up either taking the grid or finding another local alternate, which is going to create major issues without a proper western bypass. And that's not even factoring in the long distance traffic coming into Syracuse on I-90 and heading south.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 12:43:20 PM
Quote from: seicer on August 23, 2021, 12:18:28 PM
Also not sure where you are getting your numbers.

I can't find anything from NYSDOT that pings I-81 at 70,000 AADT or I-481 at 50,000 AADT.
I-81 near Downtown (the part being demolished for a wasteful grid) is 68,999 AADT, I-481 is 46,351 AADT, roughly around the figures I mentioned.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 12:47:50 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 23, 2021, 12:42:47 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 23, 2021, 10:43:42 AM
This is more about local traffic vs long haul, especially transit traffic.
...
Long haul traffic, as we discussed, is not that plentiful - although some directions are affected more than others.

Not to go down this road again, but I find this narrative about long-haul traffic to be baffling, bordering on incomprehensible. It's a misunderstanding/misrepresentation of the entire interstate system to suggest that a 2di at a major crossroads isn't significant for long haul traffic. What road is important for long-distance traffic if not a major cross-country 2di at a major regional crossroads?

You have to look at the system as a whole.  That reveals why I-81 at I-90 is not as significant as you'd think.  You have I-390, I-86/NY 17, I-88, I-690 and I-481 all detracting from its significance.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 12:53:58 PM
Just a reminder as to where the project stands:  There are two remaining viable alternatives, the grid and replacing the viaduct, with NYSDOT choosing the grid as its preferred alternative.  The Draft Environmental Impact Statement has been released and comments are due by September 14th.  The public hearing was held last week and neighborhood meetings will be held around Syracuse over the next couple of weeks.

Construction is tentatively set to start in April 2022 (perhaps somewhat quixotically).

So, any desires and wishes outside of these parameters are actually moot at this point.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 23, 2021, 01:01:44 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 12:47:50 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 23, 2021, 12:42:47 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 23, 2021, 10:43:42 AM
This is more about local traffic vs long haul, especially transit traffic.
...
Long haul traffic, as we discussed, is not that plentiful - although some directions are affected more than others.

Not to go down this road again, but I find this narrative about long-haul traffic to be baffling, bordering on incomprehensible. It's a misunderstanding/misrepresentation of the entire interstate system to suggest that a 2di at a major crossroads isn't significant for long haul traffic. What road is important for long-distance traffic if not a major cross-country 2di at a major regional crossroads?

You have to look at the system as a whole.  That reveals why I-81 at I-90 is not as significant as you'd think.  You have I-390, I-86/NY 17, I-88, I-690 and I-481 all detracting from its significance.
I thought we agreed that Rochester < - >southbound is THE affected long haul flow. And whatever the future for that flow is, it is not a 6-lane freeway as total long haul volume on I-81 doesn't warrant that. Any widening to 6 lanes in Syracuse would be for local traffic only (until Thruway decides... but that is again a different story) 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 01:07:45 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 23, 2021, 01:01:44 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 12:47:50 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 23, 2021, 12:42:47 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 23, 2021, 10:43:42 AM
This is more about local traffic vs long haul, especially transit traffic.
...
Long haul traffic, as we discussed, is not that plentiful - although some directions are affected more than others.

Not to go down this road again, but I find this narrative about long-haul traffic to be baffling, bordering on incomprehensible. It's a misunderstanding/misrepresentation of the entire interstate system to suggest that a 2di at a major crossroads isn't significant for long haul traffic. What road is important for long-distance traffic if not a major cross-country 2di at a major regional crossroads?

You have to look at the system as a whole.  That reveals why I-81 at I-90 is not as significant as you'd think.  You have I-390, I-86/NY 17, I-88, I-690 and I-481 all detracting from its significance.
I thought we agreed that Rochester < - >southbound is THE affected long haul flow. And whatever the future for that flow is, it is not a 6-lane freeway as total long haul volume on I-81 doesn't warrant that. Any widening to 6 lanes in Syracuse would be for local traffic only (until Thruway decides... but that is again a different story)
Sure, but that traffic isn't going to all go to I-81 and turn South.  They'll likely take I-690 or the other routes I mentioned.

It's also not totally Rochester.  There are truck generators in Seneca and Cayuga Counties which are also causing concerns.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: abqtraveler on August 23, 2021, 01:13:45 PM
At its Spring Meeting, AASHTO approved re-designating I-81 through Syracuse as Business Loop 81, and rerouting I-81 along the eastern leg of I-481. Given that, NYSDOT will eventually have to renumber exits along the eastern leg of I-481 after the signing change to I-81 takes place, and for I-81 north of there as well. So the million dollar question:  Given that exits on such a large portion of I-81 will have to be renumbered, will NYSDOT be required to convert exit numbers along the full length of I-81 to mile-based? I would suspect the FHWA might make NYSDOT do so, using the logic, "While we're at it...let's renumber all of the I-81 exits to mile-based."
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 23, 2021, 01:25:18 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 12:47:50 PM
You have to look at the system as a whole.  That reveals why I-81 at I-90 is not as significant as you'd think.  You have I-390, I-86/NY 17, I-88, I-690 and I-481 all detracting from its significance.

I'm referring to the south to west movement in general, which would include both I-81/I-690 AND I-81/I-90. So as far as those routes go in reducing the significance of this movement:

I-88 and I-481 are both alternates between south and east, depending on your start/endpoints. So that would reduce its importance for south/east, but not south/west. I-481 is also viable for north/south through traffic (despite adding a few minutes travel time), but again, not south/west.

I-690 doesn't do anything to reduce the significance of this movement. If anything, it only adds insult to injury by providing two viable routes from Van Buren to downtown Syracuse (I-690 and I-90>I-81), only to cut both of them off at the knees with the grid.

As for I-86/NY 17/I-390, this seems to be a recurring theme here. It's not as good a route between upstate and downstate NY as I-90 to I-81. It's around 10-15 minutes longer from Rochester, and slightly more comparable from the Buffalo/Niagara region, but with some two-lane mileage. And in particular, it's an unsuitable alternate for truck traffic, as trucks are banned from US 20A. So most if not all trucks currently use, and will continue to use, I-81 (to I-690) to I-90. You could argue that this slightly reduces the significance of I-81/I-90 on the fringes, but not in any substantial way, and certainly not in the same way that I-88 does for Binghamton-Albany.

Also, Syracuse is a logistics hub for much of upstate NY because of its central location. A lot of LTL freight from the Rochester area goes to Syracuse, for example. I'm sure it's the same with much of the Finger Lakes region and Binghamton/Watertown. And FedEx has a hub in Syracuse right near the Thruway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 01:45:28 PM
So...where are you taking this, then?  Sounds like there will still be a time savings taking I-690 to I-481 over I-390 to I-86, then.

And, with the logistics centers being out near I-690/I-90 and at Carrier Circle, it still doesn't seem likely the movements to and from the south are as you describe.  Coming from the south, trucks would take I-81 to I-481 to I-90 to get to Carrier Circle (and the upcoming center at Kirkville Road, come to think of it), or I-81 to I-690 to get to the centers at I-690/I-90.  Not seeing why trucks getting to those areas would go through I-81/I-90.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 23, 2021, 01:50:29 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 01:45:28 PM
So...where are you taking this, then?  Sounds like there will still be a time savings taking I-690 to I-481 over I-390 to I-86, then.
Extra 8 miles in a loop... i can see how people are unhappy about that. Not a deal breaker for the single trip, but someone going daily may feel different.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on August 23, 2021, 01:51:11 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 12:43:20 PM
Quote from: seicer on August 23, 2021, 12:18:28 PM
Also not sure where you are getting your numbers.

I can't find anything from NYSDOT that pings I-81 at 70,000 AADT or I-481 at 50,000 AADT.
I-81 near Downtown (the part being demolished for a wasteful grid) is 68,999 AADT, I-481 is 46,351 AADT, roughly around the figures I mentioned.

NYSDOT disagrees with your 68,999 AADT numbers for I-81. I'm still not sure where you are getting your figures.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 01:57:44 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 01:45:28 PM
So...where are you taking this, then?  Sounds like there will still be a time savings taking I-690 to I-481 over I-390 to I-86, then.
Currently a 4 minute, 4 mile trip up I-81. Simple enough.

Now make it 12 minutes, 12 miles. That's what it takes via I-481 and I-690. So look again.

Then factor increased traffic and congestion during peak hours into that figure.

Quote from: seicer on August 23, 2021, 01:51:11 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 12:43:20 PM
Quote from: seicer on August 23, 2021, 12:18:28 PM
Also not sure where you are getting your numbers.

I can't find anything from NYSDOT that pings I-81 at 70,000 AADT or I-481 at 50,000 AADT.
I-81 near Downtown (the part being demolished for a wasteful grid) is 68,999 AADT, I-481 is 46,351 AADT, roughly around the figures I mentioned.

NYSDOT disagrees with your 68,999 AADT numbers for I-81. I'm still not sure where you are getting your figures.
Straight from the NYSDOT AADT map...

https://gisportalny.dot.ny.gov/portalny/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=28537cbc8b5941e19cf8e959b16797b4
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on August 23, 2021, 03:09:16 PM
You are confusing actual and estimated. The estimated numbers are wildly different than what was actually generated.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 23, 2021, 03:18:59 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 01:57:44 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 01:45:28 PM
So...where are you taking this, then?  Sounds like there will still be a time savings taking I-690 to I-481 over I-390 to I-86, then.
Currently a 4 minute, 4 mile trip up I-81. Simple enough.
Now make it 12 minutes, 12 miles. That's what it takes via I-481 and I-690. So look again.
Then factor increased traffic and congestion during peak hours into that figure.

Basically this. It's significant extra time, but not enough to make it worth it to take I-390 to I-86. So the traffic is mostly going to just have to deal with it - which could mean any number of things; depending on the time of day and traffic situation downtown, traffic may try taking  the grid or figuring out some other way to get from I-90/I-690 down to I-81. Either way, the drivers themselves and the suburbs/communities on the alternate routes are not going to be happy about it (and rightly so IMO given the lack of planning with regards to a western bypass).


Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 01:45:28 PM
And, with the logistics centers being out near I-690/I-90 and at Carrier Circle, it still doesn't seem likely the movements to and from the south are as you describe.  Coming from the south, trucks would take I-81 to I-481 to I-90 to get to Carrier Circle (and the upcoming center at Kirkville Road, come to think of it), or I-81 to I-690 to get to the centers at I-690/I-90.  Not seeing why trucks getting to those areas would go through I-81/I-90.

Carrier Circle won't be impacted as much because of the proximity to I-481, but there's a big impact for trucks going to/from I-90/I-690: they'll have to take the grid or detour all the way out to I-481 just like everyone else, which adds significant time/mileage.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 03:25:39 PM
The question is if there's enough of an impact to spend $300m more on replacing the viaduct, when that $300m could be spent elsewhere on NYSDOT's program and benefits gained there.

*shrug*

Perhaps the impacts mentioned, even if realized, have simply been deemed tolerable.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 03:53:15 PM
^ So what happens in the future when a western bypass becomes highly desired and an actual need because the new western connection becomes unacceptable? Now we're spending some hundreds of millions on a new freeway facility, acquiring right of way in areas that were previously untouched, etc.

Or congestion grows on I-481 and widening is needed there? There's another some hundred million.

These are things not being considered with the immediate saving of "$300 million" .
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 23, 2021, 04:12:36 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 03:53:15 PM
^ So what happens in the future when a western bypass becomes highly desired and an actual need because the new western connection becomes unacceptable? Now we're spending some hundreds of millions on a new freeway facility, acquiring right of way in areas that were previously untouched, etc.

Or congestion grows on I-481 and widening is needed there? There's another some hundred million.

These are things not being considered with the immediate saving of "$300 million" .
Some southwest bypass may be a good idea regardless, IMHO. I-390 is a good one, but finger lakes area  and southern tier may benefit from more N-S connectivity.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on August 23, 2021, 06:13:23 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on August 23, 2021, 01:13:45 PM
At its Spring Meeting, AASHTO approved re-designating I-81 through Syracuse as Business Loop 81, and rerouting I-81 along the eastern leg of I-481. Given that, NYSDOT will eventually have to renumber exits along the eastern leg of I-481 after the signing change to I-81 takes place, and for I-81 north of there as well. So the million dollar question:  Given that exits on such a large portion of I-81 will have to be renumbered, will NYSDOT be required to convert exit numbers along the full length of I-81 to mile-based? I would suspect the FHWA might make NYSDOT do so, using the logic, "While we're at it...let's renumber all of the I-81 exits to mile-based."

Yes, NYSDOT Region 3 will be coordinating with Regions 9 and 7 to renumber all the interchanges on I-81 to distance based numbers. I'm thinking they'll fudge current Exit 36 (Pulaski) to Exit 122 for both directions. Might as well start the "exit numbering fudging" discussions.  :)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 09:47:52 PM


Quote from: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 03:53:15 PM
^ So what happens in the future when a western bypass becomes highly desired and an actual need because the new western connection becomes unacceptable? Now we're spending some hundreds of millions on a new freeway facility, acquiring right of way in areas that were previously untouched, etc.

Or congestion grows on I-481 and widening is needed there? There's another some hundred million.

These are things not being considered with the immediate saving of "$300 million" .

Jeramiads didn't work for Jeremiah, either.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 23, 2021, 10:03:43 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 12:53:58 PM
Just a reminder as to where the project stands:  There are two remaining viable alternatives, the grid and replacing the viaduct, with NYSDOT choosing the grid as its preferred alternative.  The Draft Environmental Impact Statement has been released and comments are due by September 14th.  The public hearing was held last week and neighborhood meetings will be held around Syracuse over the next couple of weeks.

Construction is tentatively set to start in April 2022 (perhaps somewhat quixotically).

So, any desires and wishes outside of these parameters are actually moot at this point.

With this in mind, and out of curiosity ... has there ever been a case historically (in any state, not just NY) where the preferred alternative was NOT what ultimately came to fruition?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 10:19:13 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 23, 2021, 10:03:43 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 12:53:58 PM
Just a reminder as to where the project stands:  There are two remaining viable alternatives, the grid and replacing the viaduct, with NYSDOT choosing the grid as its preferred alternative.  The Draft Environmental Impact Statement has been released and comments are due by September 14th.  The public hearing was held last week and neighborhood meetings will be held around Syracuse over the next couple of weeks.

Construction is tentatively set to start in April 2022 (perhaps somewhat quixotically).

So, any desires and wishes outside of these parameters are actually moot at this point.

With this in mind, and out of curiosity ... has there ever been a case historically (in any state, not just NY) where the preferred alternative was NOT what ultimately came to fruition?
Pretty sure, yes.  Might be headed in that direction on another project I'm aware of.  However, it takes massive public and political opposition rather than the split situation in Syracuse on I-81.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 23, 2021, 10:45:24 PM
Quote from: machias on August 23, 2021, 06:13:23 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on August 23, 2021, 01:13:45 PM
At its Spring Meeting, AASHTO approved re-designating I-81 through Syracuse as Business Loop 81, and rerouting I-81 along the eastern leg of I-481. Given that, NYSDOT will eventually have to renumber exits along the eastern leg of I-481 after the signing change to I-81 takes place, and for I-81 north of there as well. So the million dollar question:  Given that exits on such a large portion of I-81 will have to be renumbered, will NYSDOT be required to convert exit numbers along the full length of I-81 to mile-based? I would suspect the FHWA might make NYSDOT do so, using the logic, "While we're at it...let's renumber all of the I-81 exits to mile-based."

Yes, NYSDOT Region 3 will be coordinating with Regions 9 and 7 to renumber all the interchanges on I-81 to distance based numbers. I'm thinking they'll fudge current Exit 36 (Pulaski) to Exit 122 for both directions. Might as well start the "exit numbering fudging" discussions.  :)
Not just I-81 either.  I posted about this a few pages back; from the signage plans in the appendix for the DEIS, it appears that all roads NYSDOT Region 3 maintains that have exit numbers will be converted.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: yakra on August 24, 2021, 11:24:38 AM
The entirety of the roads, or just within Region 3?
Serious question.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 24, 2021, 11:47:55 AM
Quote from: yakra on August 24, 2021, 11:24:38 AM
The entirety of the roads, or just within Region 3?
Serious question.

The entirety of I-81, but just within Region 3 for everything else (seeing as nothing else spans beyond Region 3 anyways).

There's actually not much besides I-81: just NY/I-690, NY 481, and presumably the new Business 81 Loop. NY 5 is unnumbered, but it would be nice to see it numbered based on its actual mileage from the PA line.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on August 24, 2021, 04:41:18 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 24, 2021, 11:47:55 AM
Quote from: yakra on August 24, 2021, 11:24:38 AM
The entirety of the roads, or just within Region 3?
Serious question.

The entirety of I-81, but just within Region 3 for everything else (seeing as nothing else spans beyond Region 3 anyways).

There's actually not much besides I-81: just NY/I-690, NY 481, and presumably the new Business 81 Loop. NY 5 is unnumbered, but it would be nice to see it numbered based on its actual mileage from the PA line.

I'd been trying R3 to correct the mileposts on the NY 5 expressway; it has the mileposts from the beginning of the expressway instead of from the PA line.  R5 did the same thing on the Skyway, they either removed them or corrected them (I can't remember).

I'm of the belief all interchanges should have a distance based number, regardless of whether the roadway is an interstate or not. R3 has been inconsistent (no exit numbers on NY 690, but exit numbers on NY 481)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 24, 2021, 06:45:41 PM


Quote from: machias on August 24, 2021, 04:41:18 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 24, 2021, 11:47:55 AM
Quote from: yakra on August 24, 2021, 11:24:38 AM
The entirety of the roads, or just within Region 3?
Serious question.

The entirety of I-81, but just within Region 3 for everything else (seeing as nothing else spans beyond Region 3 anyways).

There's actually not much besides I-81: just NY/I-690, NY 481, and presumably the new Business 81 Loop. NY 5 is unnumbered, but it would be nice to see it numbered based on its actual mileage from the PA line.

I'd been trying R3 to correct the mileposts on the NY 5 expressway; it has the mileposts from the beginning of the expressway instead of from the PA line.  R5 did the same thing on the Skyway, they either removed them or corrected them (I can't remember).

I'm of the belief all interchanges should have a distance based number, regardless of whether the roadway is an interstate or not. R3 has been inconsistent (no exit numbers on NY 690, but exit numbers on NY 481)

I'd love to see the responses you got and from whom from your "trying."
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on August 24, 2021, 07:29:14 PM
Roundabout worries, Destiny's big reveal, spillover traffic: 6 takeaways from I-81 hearings in Syracuse (https://www.syracuse.com/state/2021/08/roundabout-worries-destinys-big-reveal-spillover-traffic-6-takeaways-from-i-81-hearings-in-syracuse.html)

More than 600 people attended four public hearings last week to comment on a $2 billion plan that would remove part of Interstate 81 from the city and reimagine the highway system here.

Many of those who spoke had common themes. Move the traffic roundabout away from Dr. King Elementary School. Do more to keep vehicles — especially trucks -- from spilling into city neighborhoods and rural roads west of Syracuse. Shrink the boulevard that will replace I-81. Provide more time to allow people to study the massive plan. Prioritize construction jobs for local residents.

--

Key:
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 24, 2021, 07:54:50 PM
Quote from: seicer on August 24, 2021, 07:29:14 PM
Roundabout worries, Destiny's big reveal, spillover traffic: 6 takeaways from I-81 hearings in Syracuse (https://www.syracuse.com/state/2021/08/roundabout-worries-destinys-big-reveal-spillover-traffic-6-takeaways-from-i-81-hearings-in-syracuse.html)

More than 600 people attended four public hearings last week to comment on a $2 billion plan that would remove part of Interstate 81 from the city and reimagine the highway system here.

Many of those who spoke had common themes. Move the traffic roundabout away from Dr. King Elementary School. Do more to keep vehicles — especially trucks -- from spilling into city neighborhoods and rural roads west of Syracuse. Shrink the boulevard that will replace I-81. Provide more time to allow people to study the massive plan. Prioritize construction jobs for local residents.

--

Key:

  • Nobody wants a roundabout that would be 120' from Dr. King Elementary. Some have suggested moving the roundabout to open up the original (and beautiful) entrance to Oakwood Cemetery that would, unfortunately, remain buried in this plan.
  • Potential spillover traffic concerns city and town residents
  • Grid opponents want (even) more time
  • This is about more than a highway
  • Destiny USA is showing its hand: "They've hired a former top lawyer for the Federal Highway Administration — the same agency that's leading the I-81 project alongside state DOT."
  • Grid-lovers and grid-haters agree on one thing: "Despite their disagreements, most people speaking out about the project agree on this: Nobody wants another Erie Boulevard at the foot of University Hill.With I-81 gone, the state is proposing to rebuild Almond Street as a four-lane boulevard. Plans show a wide median, turn lanes and big sidewalks. It's possible it could take two light changes to walk all the way across it. Even people who want to see the highway gone are worried about this."
An apt summary, speaking from my attendance.  The MLK neighborhood meeting will be interesting.

Notably, attendance was lower than in 2019.  Heard people blaming the bad weather and the general feeling to "get on with the project."
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on August 24, 2021, 08:11:31 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 24, 2021, 06:45:41 PM


Quote from: machias on August 24, 2021, 04:41:18 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 24, 2021, 11:47:55 AM
Quote from: yakra on August 24, 2021, 11:24:38 AM
The entirety of the roads, or just within Region 3?
Serious question.

The entirety of I-81, but just within Region 3 for everything else (seeing as nothing else spans beyond Region 3 anyways).

There's actually not much besides I-81: just NY/I-690, NY 481, and presumably the new Business 81 Loop. NY 5 is unnumbered, but it would be nice to see it numbered based on its actual mileage from the PA line.

I'd been trying R3 to correct the mileposts on the NY 5 expressway; it has the mileposts from the beginning of the expressway instead of from the PA line.  R5 did the same thing on the Skyway, they either removed them or corrected them (I can't remember).

I'm of the belief all interchanges should have a distance based number, regardless of whether the roadway is an interstate or not. R3 has been inconsistent (no exit numbers on NY 690, but exit numbers on NY 481)

I'd love to see the responses you got and from whom from your "trying."

It's been a few years since I contacted anyone at NYSDOT (since I don't live in New York anymore), but Region 3 was the most pleasant in that regard. We went back and forth in the early 2000s for "Albany Buffalo" to appear on the guide panels approaching the Thruway on the Syracuse area interstates, and they decided to do it with the following sign rehabs. I pointed out the mileposts on NY 5 being wrong, and the engineer that contacted me said "you're absolutely right" but never followed up on it. They also told me that NYSDOT didn't require interchange numbers on non-interstates. Probably the last thing we talked about was the distance based numbering for the Syracuse rebuild and that was before they decided on the grid, but it's been at least five years since that discussion.

Region 2 was tolerant but cooperative, I knew folks that worked in Utica and I actually interviewed there. They knew who I was before the interview. My bugging them probably didn't help the situation.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 24, 2021, 09:51:12 PM
Quote from: machias on August 24, 2021, 04:41:18 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 24, 2021, 11:47:55 AM
Quote from: yakra on August 24, 2021, 11:24:38 AM
The entirety of the roads, or just within Region 3?
Serious question.

The entirety of I-81, but just within Region 3 for everything else (seeing as nothing else spans beyond Region 3 anyways).

There's actually not much besides I-81: just NY/I-690, NY 481, and presumably the new Business 81 Loop. NY 5 is unnumbered, but it would be nice to see it numbered based on its actual mileage from the PA line.

I'd been trying R3 to correct the mileposts on the NY 5 expressway; it has the mileposts from the beginning of the expressway instead of from the PA line.  R5 did the same thing on the Skyway, they either removed them or corrected them (I can't remember).

I'm of the belief all interchanges should have a distance based number, regardless of whether the roadway is an interstate or not. R3 has been inconsistent (no exit numbers on NY 690, but exit numbers on NY 481)
NY 5 near the Skyway has milemarkers based on its mileage within Erie County (matching the milepoint system NYSDOT uses for some inventory purposes).  Meanwhile, the NY 33 milemarkers are for just the freeway portion, omitting the half mile or so to the west.  Given that as well as NY 104 and NY 7, I think milemarkers for just the freeway portion seems to be NYSDOT standard practice.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on August 25, 2021, 03:32:12 PM
Quote from: machias on August 24, 2021, 08:11:31 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 24, 2021, 06:45:41 PM


Quote from: machias on August 24, 2021, 04:41:18 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 24, 2021, 11:47:55 AM
Quote from: yakra on August 24, 2021, 11:24:38 AM
The entirety of the roads, or just within Region 3?
Serious question.

The entirety of I-81, but just within Region 3 for everything else (seeing as nothing else spans beyond Region 3 anyways).

There's actually not much besides I-81: just NY/I-690, NY 481, and presumably the new Business 81 Loop. NY 5 is unnumbered, but it would be nice to see it numbered based on its actual mileage from the PA line.

I'd been trying R3 to correct the mileposts on the NY 5 expressway; it has the mileposts from the beginning of the expressway instead of from the PA line.  R5 did the same thing on the Skyway, they either removed them or corrected them (I can't remember).

I'm of the belief all interchanges should have a distance based number, regardless of whether the roadway is an interstate or not. R3 has been inconsistent (no exit numbers on NY 690, but exit numbers on NY 481)

I'd love to see the responses you got and from whom from your "trying."

It's been a few years since I contacted anyone at NYSDOT (since I don't live in New York anymore), but Region 3 was the most pleasant in that regard. We went back and forth in the early 2000s for "Albany Buffalo" to appear on the guide panels approaching the Thruway on the Syracuse area interstates, and they decided to do it with the following sign rehabs. I pointed out the mileposts on NY 5 being wrong, and the engineer that contacted me said "you're absolutely right" but never followed up on it. They also told me that NYSDOT didn't require interchange numbers on non-interstates. Probably the last thing we talked about was the distance based numbering for the Syracuse rebuild and that was before they decided on the grid, but it's been at least five years since that discussion.

Region 2 was tolerant but cooperative, I knew folks that worked in Utica and I actually interviewed there. They knew who I was before the interview. My bugging them probably didn't help the situation.

Meanwhile, R1 has basically told me to F off when I contacted them in the past, to the point where I've given up on contacting them. I caught most of the sign errors R1 has installed in the past 5 years in the plan stage, but they refuse to issue change orders.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 03:03:24 PM
Public comment period has closed:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-news/large-number-of-public-comments-delays-release-of-final-i-81-design/
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 03:09:50 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 03:03:24 PM
Public comment period has closed:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-news/large-number-of-public-comments-delays-release-of-final-i-81-design/
I like how NYSDOT is mentioned and quoted as if it were some faceless entity.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on October 22, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 03:09:50 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 03:03:24 PM
Public comment period has closed:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-news/large-number-of-public-comments-delays-release-of-final-i-81-design/
I like how NYSDOT is mentioned and quoted as if it were some faceless entity.

If the viaduct teardown really does proceed, I would consider "faceless entity" extremely complimentary.

I am going to have to stay focused on more positive projects, like the CSVT and I-80/I-99 rebuild, because this one is really dangerous for one's mental health.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 04:46:34 PM
I'd like to see a summary of the comments.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TheDon102 on October 22, 2021, 07:13:42 PM
This just sucks
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:24:46 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 04:46:34 PM
I'd like to see a summary of the comments.
Not sure that is possible given the multiple thousands that were received.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:25:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 22, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 03:09:50 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 03:03:24 PM
Public comment period has closed:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-news/large-number-of-public-comments-delays-release-of-final-i-81-design/
I like how NYSDOT is mentioned and quoted as if it were some faceless entity.

If the viaduct teardown really does proceed, I would consider "faceless entity" extremely complimentary.

I am going to have to stay focused on more positive projects, like the CSVT and I-80/I-99 rebuild, because this one is really dangerous for one's mental health.
Hyperbole.  It'll be fine.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TheDon102 on October 22, 2021, 07:30:23 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:25:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 22, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 03:09:50 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 03:03:24 PM
Public comment period has closed:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-news/large-number-of-public-comments-delays-release-of-final-i-81-design/
I like how NYSDOT is mentioned and quoted as if it were some faceless entity.

If the viaduct teardown really does proceed, I would consider "faceless entity" extremely complimentary.

I am going to have to stay focused on more positive projects, like the CSVT and I-80/I-99 rebuild, because this one is really dangerous for one's mental health.
Hyperbole.  It'll be fine.

New York is already woefully inadequate in its Interstate Network. The removal of 81 through Syracuse will 100% be used to teardown other freeways across the state.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:34:40 PM
Quote from: TheDon102 on October 22, 2021, 07:30:23 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:25:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 22, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 03:09:50 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 03:03:24 PM
Public comment period has closed:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-news/large-number-of-public-comments-delays-release-of-final-i-81-design/
I like how NYSDOT is mentioned and quoted as if it were some faceless entity.

If the viaduct teardown really does proceed, I would consider "faceless entity" extremely complimentary.

I am going to have to stay focused on more positive projects, like the CSVT and I-80/I-99 rebuild, because this one is really dangerous for one's mental health.
Hyperbole.  It'll be fine.

New York is already woefully inadequate in its Interstate Network. The removal of 81 through Syracuse will 100% be used to teardown other freeways across the state.
So?  If they're not needed or there are benefits from doing so, no problem.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 22, 2021, 07:40:41 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:24:46 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 04:46:34 PM
I'd like to see a summary of the comments.
Not sure that is possible given the multiple thousands that were received.
I'll try:
1.f@$k community grid
2.  Community grid is great
3. Make it more urban, less cars
4. Save our I-81
5. Make Syracuse great again



Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TheDon102 on October 22, 2021, 07:41:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:34:40 PM
Quote from: TheDon102 on October 22, 2021, 07:30:23 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:25:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 22, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 03:09:50 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 03:03:24 PM
Public comment period has closed:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-news/large-number-of-public-comments-delays-release-of-final-i-81-design/
I like how NYSDOT is mentioned and quoted as if it were some faceless entity.

If the viaduct teardown really does proceed, I would consider "faceless entity" extremely complimentary.

I am going to have to stay focused on more positive projects, like the CSVT and I-80/I-99 rebuild, because this one is really dangerous for one's mental health.
Hyperbole.  It'll be fine.

New York is already woefully inadequate in its Interstate Network. The removal of 81 through Syracuse will 100% be used to teardown other freeways across the state.
So?  If they're not needed or there are benefits from doing so, no problem.

You can probably find  some benefit for removing every freeway in the state, that doesn't justify it's removal. Name one freeway removal that will actually benefit New York
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 09:46:50 PM
Quote from: TheDon102 on October 22, 2021, 07:41:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:34:40 PM
Quote from: TheDon102 on October 22, 2021, 07:30:23 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:25:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 22, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 03:09:50 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 03:03:24 PM
Public comment period has closed:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-news/large-number-of-public-comments-delays-release-of-final-i-81-design/
I like how NYSDOT is mentioned and quoted as if it were some faceless entity.

If the viaduct teardown really does proceed, I would consider "faceless entity" extremely complimentary.

I am going to have to stay focused on more positive projects, like the CSVT and I-80/I-99 rebuild, because this one is really dangerous for one's mental health.
Hyperbole.  It'll be fine.

New York is already woefully inadequate in its Interstate Network. The removal of 81 through Syracuse will 100% be used to teardown other freeways across the state.
So?  If they're not needed or there are benefits from doing so, no problem.

You can probably find  some benefit for removing every freeway in the state, that doesn't justify it's removal. Name one freeway removal that will actually benefit New York
The Sheridan's already gone...to much...shrugging.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on October 22, 2021, 11:19:50 PM
Quote from: TheDon102 on October 22, 2021, 07:30:23 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:25:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 22, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 03:09:50 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 03:03:24 PM
Public comment period has closed:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-news/large-number-of-public-comments-delays-release-of-final-i-81-design/
I like how NYSDOT is mentioned and quoted as if it were some faceless entity.

If the viaduct teardown really does proceed, I would consider "faceless entity" extremely complimentary.

I am going to have to stay focused on more positive projects, like the CSVT and I-80/I-99 rebuild, because this one is really dangerous for one's mental health.
Hyperbole.  It'll be fine.

New York is already woefully inadequate in its Interstate Network. The removal of 81 through Syracuse will 100% be used to teardown other freeways across the state.
It already is, and the viaduct isn't even down yet.  Every person pushing the removal of I-787 in Albany cities I-81.  And it time it won't just be in state, but nation-wide.  I think it's safe to say that this is one of the most significant freeway removals in the entire history of the country - none have been on such a major route in recent memory, if ever.

"Woefully inadequate" might be a bit much for describing NY's interstate system.  Though there are gaps that would be nice to have filled (though it's worth noting that some of the most significant gaps are actually in neighboring states - namely, US 15 in PA and MD, US 7 in VT, and MA/RI 146), NY is one of the states where uttering the phrase "[insert state here]'s interstate system" doesn't induce laughter.  Contrast with Nevada, for example, where the interstates aren't all that useful for in-state travel (though I-11 will change this when completed) - they're just a couple of corridors that happen to pass through and have 3di connectors.  We don't even have to go far to find states with more major gaps than NY - VT's interstate system is built to serve MA's interests and not its own, and as a result the north-south interstate is through the middle of nowhere rather than serving the US 7 corridor.

This whole project exemplifies the whole "random collection of corridors that happen to share the same brand" vision of the interstate system that I've complained about multiple times before.  The original interstate system and the 1969 additions make up a beautiful system that anyone with even a passing interest in transportation can't help but marvel at.  Everything since has been planned on a per-corridor level, some of which (such as I-49, I-86, and the occasionally proposed CA 99 upgrade) fits in nicely filling in the remaining gaps, while others (such as I-14, I-87, and parts of the I-69 system) arguably detract from the interstate system's greatness.  These days, there's no consideration for how things work together as a system, only how corridors will work in isolation (not just roads, either... bike, pedestrian, and transit infrastructure often has the same problem).  Just look at how all the traffic analysis for I-81 looks at trips to/from downtown, or north-south through the area, with little to no attention paid to how it affects trips from the western suburbs to/from the south, or traffic passing through between the Finger Lakes/Lake Ontario and the Southern Tier/PA.  While the fastest route will still likely be all freeway due to traffic lights, traffic will have to go way out of the way, going all the way across the city and then most of the way back just to make what is now a direct movement.  It's bad enough that traffic from many of the western suburbs has to take non-freeway routes to get around so much of the area already.

And don't even get me started again on this business route I-81 stuff.  I hate the business routes - if I had my way, the whole concept would be deleted.  Heck, I'd extend that to bannered routes on other systems too.  Want an alternate route?  Add a suffix, in a lower tier system if you need to.  NY has the right idea in that respect (this is, incidentally, why I hate I-35E/W and I-69E/C/W as much as I do; they function as splits in the route and not alternate routes as suffixes should).  Plus it generates another gap in the intestate system proper when I'd rather see the number of gaps reduced, not increased (just because it's a freeway north of I-690 doesn't mean it won't be a gap in the interstate system).  I've argued about it less after finding out there are actual reasons for it beyond a failed attempt to placate DestiNY USA and/or someone somewhere trying to expand a concept I fundamentally don't like into NY, but that doesn't mean I've really made peace with it.  It will be very interesting to see how it functions, in any case - NY is a state where everything is "route X" (at least it is west of the Capital District), so I can see potential for confusion.

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 11:39:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:24:46 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 04:46:34 PM
I'd like to see a summary of the comments.
Not sure that is possible given the multiple thousands that were received.
Well, it is possible just a lot of work. I'll probably go through some of them. Hell if I get bored enough while waiting to start my job I might just give it a shot. It really should be hard just tedious work. Either pro freeway or pro removal or unrelated.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 12:01:57 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 11:39:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:24:46 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 04:46:34 PM
I'd like to see a summary of the comments.
Not sure that is possible given the multiple thousands that were received.
Well, it is possible just a lot of work. I'll probably go through some of them. Hell if I get bored enough while waiting to start my job I might just give it a shot. It really should be hard just tedious work. Either pro freeway or pro removal or unrelated.
Not experienced with public comments, are you.  Just at the public hearings, the comments were much more nuanced:  "Since we're proceeding with the grid, please do X," where X is any number of things, just for one example.

NYSDOT has to respond to them all; I'd just wait for that product.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2021, 12:51:58 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 12:01:57 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 11:39:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:24:46 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 04:46:34 PM
I'd like to see a summary of the comments.
Not sure that is possible given the multiple thousands that were received.
Well, it is possible just a lot of work. I'll probably go through some of them. Hell if I get bored enough while waiting to start my job I might just give it a shot. It really should be hard just tedious work. Either pro freeway or pro removal or unrelated.
Not experienced with public comments, are you.  Just at the public hearings, the comments were much more nuanced:  "Since we're proceeding with the grid, please do X," where X is any number of things, just for one example.

NYSDOT has to respond to them all; I'd just wait for that product.
I've been looking at them for 10 years as a hobby. I'd lump those who say things like "since were preceding with the grid"  as those who basically support the grid which they do now.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 10:42:11 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2021, 12:51:58 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 12:01:57 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 11:39:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:24:46 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 04:46:34 PM
I'd like to see a summary of the comments.
Not sure that is possible given the multiple thousands that were received.
Well, it is possible just a lot of work. I'll probably go through some of them. Hell if I get bored enough while waiting to start my job I might just give it a shot. It really should be hard just tedious work. Either pro freeway or pro removal or unrelated.
Not experienced with public comments, are you.  Just at the public hearings, the comments were much more nuanced:  "Since we're proceeding with the grid, please do X," where X is any number of things, just for one example.

NYSDOT has to respond to them all; I'd just wait for that product.
I've been looking at them for 10 years as a hobby. I'd lump those who say things like "since were preceding with the grid"  as those who basically support the grid which they do now.
A stretch of an assumption.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2021, 10:54:20 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 10:42:11 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2021, 12:51:58 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 12:01:57 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 11:39:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:24:46 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 04:46:34 PM
I'd like to see a summary of the comments.
Not sure that is possible given the multiple thousands that were received.
Well, it is possible just a lot of work. I'll probably go through some of them. Hell if I get bored enough while waiting to start my job I might just give it a shot. It really should be hard just tedious work. Either pro freeway or pro removal or unrelated.
Not experienced with public comments, are you.  Just at the public hearings, the comments were much more nuanced:  "Since we're proceeding with the grid, please do X," where X is any number of things, just for one example.

NYSDOT has to respond to them all; I'd just wait for that product.
I've been looking at them for 10 years as a hobby. I'd lump those who say things like "since were preceding with the grid"  as those who basically support the grid which they do now.
A stretch of an assumption.
Either way it gives an idea of the comments. You really seem to be against any and all notions that the grid idea just sucks and is being pushed as part of an agenda not that the richest country in the world can't do what tons of other developing countries are doing.

I will make an assumption and say there are likely a lot of comments like mine that make it very clear the grid is the wrong way forward and I-81 needs to remain either as a tunnel or an elevated viaduct. If you can't fathom the 10 billion dollars to tunnel it fine I'll compromise and support the viaduct, even if that means substandard design as that is still better than a surface street.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TheDon102 on October 23, 2021, 11:25:22 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 09:46:50 PM
Quote from: TheDon102 on October 22, 2021, 07:41:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:34:40 PM
Quote from: TheDon102 on October 22, 2021, 07:30:23 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:25:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 22, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 03:09:50 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 03:03:24 PM
Public comment period has closed:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-news/large-number-of-public-comments-delays-release-of-final-i-81-design/
I like how NYSDOT is mentioned and quoted as if it were some faceless entity.

If the viaduct teardown really does proceed, I would consider "faceless entity" extremely complimentary.

I am going to have to stay focused on more positive projects, like the CSVT and I-80/I-99 rebuild, because this one is really dangerous for one's mental health.
Hyperbole.  It'll be fine.

New York is already woefully inadequate in its Interstate Network. The removal of 81 through Syracuse will 100% be used to teardown other freeways across the state.
So?  If they're not needed or there are benefits from doing so, no problem.

You can probably find  some benefit for removing every freeway in the state, that doesn't justify it's removal. Name one freeway removal that will actually benefit New York
The Sheridan's already gone...to much...shrugging.

If the sheredian was actually completed as intended and not some aborted freeway that doesn't do much anyway would it have been removed?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 11:31:36 AM
Quote from: TheDon102 on October 23, 2021, 11:25:22 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 09:46:50 PM
Quote from: TheDon102 on October 22, 2021, 07:41:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:34:40 PM
Quote from: TheDon102 on October 22, 2021, 07:30:23 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:25:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 22, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 03:09:50 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 03:03:24 PM
Public comment period has closed:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-news/large-number-of-public-comments-delays-release-of-final-i-81-design/
I like how NYSDOT is mentioned and quoted as if it were some faceless entity.

If the viaduct teardown really does proceed, I would consider "faceless entity" extremely complimentary.

I am going to have to stay focused on more positive projects, like the CSVT and I-80/I-99 rebuild, because this one is really dangerous for one's mental health.
Hyperbole.  It'll be fine.

New York is already woefully inadequate in its Interstate Network. The removal of 81 through Syracuse will 100% be used to teardown other freeways across the state.
So?  If they're not needed or there are benefits from doing so, no problem.

You can probably find  some benefit for removing every freeway in the state, that doesn't justify it's removal. Name one freeway removal that will actually benefit New York
The Sheridan's already gone...to much...shrugging.

If the sheredian was actually completed as intended and not some aborted freeway that doesn't do much anyway would it have been removed?
If a bear is in the woods and a blue tree falls, do you eat an avocado?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 11:37:42 AM


Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2021, 10:54:20 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 10:42:11 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2021, 12:51:58 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 12:01:57 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 11:39:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:24:46 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 04:46:34 PM
I'd like to see a summary of the comments.
Not sure that is possible given the multiple thousands that were received.
Well, it is possible just a lot of work. I'll probably go through some of them. Hell if I get bored enough while waiting to start my job I might just give it a shot. It really should be hard just tedious work. Either pro freeway or pro removal or unrelated.
Not experienced with public comments, are you.  Just at the public hearings, the comments were much more nuanced:  "Since we're proceeding with the grid, please do X," where X is any number of things, just for one example.

NYSDOT has to respond to them all; I'd just wait for that product.
I've been looking at them for 10 years as a hobby. I'd lump those who say things like "since were preceding with the grid"  as those who basically support the grid which they do now.
A stretch of an assumption.
Either way it gives an idea of the comments. You really seem to be against any and all notions that the grid idea just sucks and is being pushed as part of an agenda not that the richest country in the world can't do what tons of other developing countries are doing.

I will make an assumption and say there are likely a lot of comments like mine that make it very clear the grid is the wrong way forward and I-81 needs to remain either as a tunnel or an elevated viaduct. If you can't fathom the 10 billion dollars to tunnel it fine I'll compromise and support the viaduct, even if that means substandard design as that is still better than a surface street.

You mean, either way it could misconstrue the comments.

At this point, I am not sure where my opinion lies -- probably just resignation that the community grid will be a reality, rather than enthusiasm over the idea.  I certainly and personally disagree with the idea that it will have some sort of restorative justice for the neighborhoods obliterated decades ago -- the area has just changed too much.  You would have to demolish and relocate all the medical and commercial facilities now in the area and totally rebuild those neighborhoods...and the new residential properties would probably be considered gentrification in the end.  So, no one wins.

We'll see how your summary, which sounds like it is already set up to be biased towards your own opinion, matches up with the official accounts.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TheDon102 on October 23, 2021, 11:53:27 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 11:31:36 AM
Quote from: TheDon102 on October 23, 2021, 11:25:22 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 09:46:50 PM
Quote from: TheDon102 on October 22, 2021, 07:41:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:34:40 PM
Quote from: TheDon102 on October 22, 2021, 07:30:23 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:25:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 22, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 03:09:50 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 03:03:24 PM
Public comment period has closed:

https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-news/large-number-of-public-comments-delays-release-of-final-i-81-design/
I like how NYSDOT is mentioned and quoted as if it were some faceless entity.

If the viaduct teardown really does proceed, I would consider "faceless entity" extremely complimentary.

I am going to have to stay focused on more positive projects, like the CSVT and I-80/I-99 rebuild, because this one is really dangerous for one's mental health.
Hyperbole.  It'll be fine.

New York is already woefully inadequate in its Interstate Network. The removal of 81 through Syracuse will 100% be used to teardown other freeways across the state.
So?  If they're not needed or there are benefits from doing so, no problem.

You can probably find  some benefit for removing every freeway in the state, that doesn't justify it's removal. Name one freeway removal that will actually benefit New York
The Sheridan's already gone...to much...shrugging.

If the sheredian was actually completed as intended and not some aborted freeway that doesn't do much anyway would it have been removed?
If a bear is in the woods and a blue tree falls, do you eat an avocado?

:spin:
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Mr. Matté on October 23, 2021, 12:03:02 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 11:31:36 AM
Quote from: TheDon102 on October 23, 2021, 11:25:22 AM
If the sheredian was actually completed as intended and not some aborted freeway that doesn't do much anyway would it have been removed?
If a bear is in the woods and a blue tree falls, do you eat an avocado?

*one hand claps*
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on October 23, 2021, 12:39:54 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:25:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 22, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
If the viaduct teardown really does proceed, I would consider "faceless entity" extremely complimentary.

I am going to have to stay focused on more positive projects, like the CSVT and I-80/I-99 rebuild, because this one is really dangerous for one's mental health.
Hyperbole.  It'll be fine.

No, I did intend for it to be taken literally, though you don't have to take it that way if you don't want.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2021, 03:47:25 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 11:37:42 AM


Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2021, 10:54:20 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 10:42:11 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2021, 12:51:58 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2021, 12:01:57 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 11:39:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 22, 2021, 07:24:46 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 22, 2021, 04:46:34 PM
I'd like to see a summary of the comments.
Not sure that is possible given the multiple thousands that were received.
Well, it is possible just a lot of work. I'll probably go through some of them. Hell if I get bored enough while waiting to start my job I might just give it a shot. It really should be hard just tedious work. Either pro freeway or pro removal or unrelated.
Not experienced with public comments, are you.  Just at the public hearings, the comments were much more nuanced:  "Since we're proceeding with the grid, please do X," where X is any number of things, just for one example.

NYSDOT has to respond to them all; I'd just wait for that product.
I've been looking at them for 10 years as a hobby. I'd lump those who say things like "since were preceding with the grid"  as those who basically support the grid which they do now.
A stretch of an assumption.
Either way it gives an idea of the comments. You really seem to be against any and all notions that the grid idea just sucks and is being pushed as part of an agenda not that the richest country in the world can't do what tons of other developing countries are doing.

I will make an assumption and say there are likely a lot of comments like mine that make it very clear the grid is the wrong way forward and I-81 needs to remain either as a tunnel or an elevated viaduct. If you can't fathom the 10 billion dollars to tunnel it fine I'll compromise and support the viaduct, even if that means substandard design as that is still better than a surface street.

You mean, either way it could misconstrue the comments.

At this point, I am not sure where my opinion lies -- probably just resignation that the community grid will be a reality, rather than enthusiasm over the idea.  I certainly and personally disagree with the idea that it will have some sort of restorative justice for the neighborhoods obliterated decades ago -- the area has just changed too much.  You would have to demolish and relocate all the medical and commercial facilities now in the area and totally rebuild those neighborhoods...and the new residential properties would probably be considered gentrification in the end.  So, no one wins.

We'll see how your summary, which sounds like it is already set up to be biased towards your own opinion, matches up with the official accounts.
I'm not even sure I'll do a summary yet I may start and get burnt out. 3000+ comments isn't a small amount of change. If I do I'll report as accurately as possible because I am genuinely curious to see how those interested really think.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: hotdogPi on October 23, 2021, 03:55:41 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2021, 03:47:25 PM
I'm not even sure I'll do a summary yet I may start and get burnt out. 3000+ comments isn't a small amount of change. If I do I'll report as accurately as possible because I am genuinely curious to see how those interested really think.

Read 50 comments. Search for the keywords that keep appearing and note how many results you get for each keyword.

Choose your keywords carefully; "grid" doesn't tell you whether the person is for or against it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2021, 05:06:08 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 23, 2021, 03:55:41 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2021, 03:47:25 PM
I'm not even sure I'll do a summary yet I may start and get burnt out. 3000+ comments isn't a small amount of change. If I do I'll report as accurately as possible because I am genuinely curious to see how those interested really think.

Read 50 comments. Search for the keywords that keep appearing and note how many results you get for each keyword.

Choose your keywords carefully; "grid" doesn't tell you whether the person is for or against it.
"Grid"  specifically doesn't say much but a statement like "since we're building the grid"  seems to be a decent indicator.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on October 23, 2021, 06:30:57 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2021, 05:06:08 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 23, 2021, 03:55:41 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 23, 2021, 03:47:25 PM
I'm not even sure I'll do a summary yet I may start and get burnt out. 3000+ comments isn't a small amount of change. If I do I'll report as accurately as possible because I am genuinely curious to see how those interested really think.

Read 50 comments. Search for the keywords that keep appearing and note how many results you get for each keyword.

Choose your keywords carefully; "grid" doesn't tell you whether the person is for or against it.
"Grid"  specifically doesn't say much but a statement like "since we're building the grid"  seems to be a decent indicator.
Too long
Social justice, reconnect, walkable may be better ones
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on October 23, 2021, 08:32:25 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 22, 2021, 11:19:50 PM
These days, there's no consideration for how things work together as a system, only how corridors will work in isolation (not just roads, either... bike, pedestrian, and transit infrastructure often has the same problem).  Just look at how all the traffic analysis for I-81 looks at trips to/from downtown, or north-south through the area, with little to no attention paid to how it affects trips from the western suburbs to/from the south, or traffic passing through between the Finger Lakes/Lake Ontario and the Southern Tier/PA.  While the fastest route will still likely be all freeway due to traffic lights, traffic will have to go way out of the way, going all the way across the city and then most of the way back just to make what is now a direct movement.  It's bad enough that traffic from many of the western suburbs has to take non-freeway routes to get around so much of the area already.

Exactly... I am convinced that people with a proper understanding of I-81's function as part of the regional road network are either not involved in the project at all, or have simply been drowned out by the cacophony of those calling for the viaduct removal.

I have no hesitation in saying that the viaduct removal is the single worst project on the interstate system in my lifetime - and quite possibly of all time - and it's not even close. Anyone can tell just by looking at a map for five seconds what a nightmare it's going to be for traffic going between the western suburbs and points south, and that's not even factoring in the long-distance traffic, some of which I still believe is going to try using the grid, making it more like gridlock.

Compare it with something like the plans for I-83 reconstruction in Harrisburg and it's like night and day. One represents the type of vision and forward-thinking mindset that you'd expect from a first world country, while the other is completely backwards and a total reversal from the type of transportation investment we need... I'd call it third-world, but that would be giving it too much credit, because at least in a third-world country, a project would actively make things better, but this actively, intentionally, and purposefully, makes the system worse. Fourth-world, maybe, if there even is such a thing?


Quote from: vdeane on October 22, 2021, 11:19:50 PM
It will be very interesting to see how it functions, in any case - NY is a state where everything is "route X" (at least it is west of the Capital District), so I can see potential for confusion.

Yeah, something about the "Business" I-81 just doesn't sit well with me. Maybe it's the fact that most of it isn't really a business route. What relevance does that designation have for someone going from I-90 east to I-81 north, for example? I'd much rather it stayed part of the existing system, preferably as a 3di, but even an X81 state route could work.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on October 23, 2021, 09:52:04 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 23, 2021, 08:32:25 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 22, 2021, 11:19:50 PM
These days, there's no consideration for how things work together as a system, only how corridors will work in isolation (not just roads, either... bike, pedestrian, and transit infrastructure often has the same problem).  Just look at how all the traffic analysis for I-81 looks at trips to/from downtown, or north-south through the area, with little to no attention paid to how it affects trips from the western suburbs to/from the south, or traffic passing through between the Finger Lakes/Lake Ontario and the Southern Tier/PA.  While the fastest route will still likely be all freeway due to traffic lights, traffic will have to go way out of the way, going all the way across the city and then most of the way back just to make what is now a direct movement.  It's bad enough that traffic from many of the western suburbs has to take non-freeway routes to get around so much of the area already.

Exactly... I am convinced that people with a proper understanding of I-81's function as part of the regional road network are either not involved in the project at all, or have simply been drowned out by the cacophony of those calling for the viaduct removal.

I have no hesitation in saying that the viaduct removal is the single worst project on the interstate system in my lifetime - and quite possibly of all time - and it's not even close. Anyone can tell just by looking at a map for five seconds what a nightmare it's going to be for traffic going between the western suburbs and points south, and that's not even factoring in the long-distance traffic, some of which I still believe is going to try using the grid, making it more like gridlock.

Compare it with something like the plans for I-83 reconstruction in Harrisburg and it's like night and day. One represents the type of vision and forward-thinking mindset that you'd expect from a first world country, while the other is completely backwards and a total reversal from the type of transportation investment we need... I'd call it third-world, but that would be giving it too much credit, because at least in a third-world country, a project would actively make things better, but this actively, intentionally, and purposefully, makes the system worse. Fourth-world, maybe, if there even is such a thing?


Quote from: vdeane on October 22, 2021, 11:19:50 PM
It will be very interesting to see how it functions, in any case - NY is a state where everything is "route X" (at least it is west of the Capital District), so I can see potential for confusion.

Yeah, something about the "Business" I-81 just doesn't sit well with me. Maybe it's the fact that most of it isn't really a business route. What relevance does that designation have for someone going from I-90 east to I-81 north, for example? I'd much rather it stayed part of the existing system, preferably as a 3di, but even an X81 state route could work.
An article I was reading about infrastructure said we're living off the investments our grandparents made.  That's when it hit me - when it comes to infrastructure, we're Rome, right after the fall of the Empire.  Once the Empire fell, nobody was able to maintain and improve the advanced infrastructure like the aqueducts.  People were able to live off it for a time, but eventually it became unusable, and Europe fell into the Dark Ages.  That's where we are.  We're seemingly no longer able to build, living off past investments, praying that we'll continue to be able to do so for the foreseeable future.  But eventually, it will fail, and the next Dark Age will be upon us.  Heck, it's only recently that we're even beginning to rediscover the concrete mix the Romans used that lasted so long that their roads were able to last over a thousand years after maintenance stopped.

I do hope someone commented about the business I-81 thing.  Calling it NY 581 or something would be far more preferable.  I'd rather a 3di for the freeway portion, but it seems like the NY division of FHWA won't sign off without the missing movements at the I-690 interchange (I can't imagine what other ROW takings the report could be referring to, and FHWA is known to be against partial interchanges, especially between interstates).

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 09, 2022, 08:41:35 PM
Those who have been hoping that Hochul will put a stop to this project were surely very disappointed in the state of the state speech in which she mentioned removing I-81 and other roads.  From the accompanying policy book (https://www.governor.ny.gov/sites/default/files/2022-01/2022StateoftheStateBook.pdf):
Quote
The   Interstate   81   (I-81)   project   area   serves   as   an   essential   travel   corridor   for   the   
Central   New   York   Region,   especially   the   downtown   Syracuse   area,   and   has   been   
highlighted   by   both   President   Biden   and   Secretary   Buttigieg   as   reflective   of   the   
Administration's   priorities   on   equity,   economic   opportunity,   and   transforming   
neighborhoods   left   behind.

This   project   will   address   the   I-81   geometric,   structural,   and   safety   concerns   of   the   
viaduct   by   replacing   the   elevated   structure   with   a   community   grid   that   would   
disperse   traffic   along   local   north-south   streets.   It   will   create   a   new   high-speed   
business   loop   and   reconnect   neighborhoods   severed   by   construction   of   the   
interstate,   thereby   creating   opportunities   for   mixed-use   residential   and   commercial   
development.   The   project   would   also   construct   safe   pedestrian   and   bicycle   access   
for   users   of   all   ages   and   abilities   within   the   downtown   core.

Building   on   the   I-81   project,   Connecting   the   New   15th   Ward   is   a   plan   to   reimagine   
the   adjacent   118-acre   East   Adams   neighborhood,   where   over   1,000   units   of   public   
housing   are   currently   located.   The   revitalization   project   would   create   a   mixed-use,   
mixed-income   neighborhood   where   families   â€“ especially   children   â€“ can   thrive   and   
have   genuine   opportunities   for   successful   futures.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: MATraveler128 on January 09, 2022, 08:54:14 PM
Looks like Syracuse will be stuck with a bottleneck of a boulevard through downtown. I wish they could trench it or something. Will I-81 be converted to mile based numbering once it is rerouted on the existing I-481?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on January 09, 2022, 09:14:17 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on January 09, 2022, 08:54:14 PM
Looks like Syracuse will be stuck with a bottleneck of a boulevard through downtown. I wish they could trench it or something. Will I-81 be converted to mile based numbering once it is rerouted on the existing I-481?


It looks like I-81, I-481/NY 481, and BL 81 (what a dumb designation) will all have distance based exit numbering.  I believe I-690/NY 690 will be converted at the same time, but I'm not certain about that.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 09, 2022, 09:28:51 PM
Quote from: machias on January 09, 2022, 09:14:17 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on January 09, 2022, 08:54:14 PM
Looks like Syracuse will be stuck with a bottleneck of a boulevard through downtown. I wish they could trench it or something. Will I-81 be converted to mile based numbering once it is rerouted on the existing I-481?


It looks like I-81, I-481/NY 481, and BL 81 (what a dumb designation) will all have distance based exit numbering.  I believe I-690/NY 690 will be converted at the same time, but I'm not certain about that.
That's what I saw when I was looking at some signing plans in the DDR/DEIS (starting around page 203 of Appendix A-6): https://parsonsecmpublic.s3.amazonaws.com/I-81-DEIS/07-2021/Appendix%20A-6_Access%20Modification%20Report_July%202021.pdf
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: MATraveler128 on January 09, 2022, 09:37:32 PM
I see that they even have the new numbers listed in that document. The Thruway interchange will become Exit 91 once this is finished. The northern end at future BL I-81 will be Exits 96A-B just to name a few.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on January 09, 2022, 10:05:00 PM
Quote from: machias on January 09, 2022, 09:14:17 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on January 09, 2022, 08:54:14 PM
Looks like Syracuse will be stuck with a bottleneck of a boulevard through downtown. I wish they could trench it or something. Will I-81 be converted to mile based numbering once it is rerouted on the existing I-481?


It looks like I-81, I-481/NY 481, and BL 81 (what a dumb designation) will all have distance based exit numbering.  I believe I-690/NY 690 will be converted at the same time, but I'm not certain about that.

Yes, I-690/NY 690 will also be getting new distance-based exit numbering.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: yakra on January 10, 2022, 12:51:37 PM
Quotea   new   high-speed   business   loop
LOL. Compared to?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: 74/171FAN on January 10, 2022, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: yakra on January 10, 2022, 12:51:37 PM
Quotea   new   high-speed   business   loop
LOL. Compared to?

I was thinking that I-81BL would be somewhat similar to I-95BL in Fayetteville, NC (freeway on both ends, boulevard in middle).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 10, 2022, 11:33:00 PM
Quote from: yakra on January 10, 2022, 12:51:37 PM
Quotea   new   high-speed   business   loop
LOL. Compared to?
Hm.  High-speed BL with an at-grade in the middle...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: MATraveler128 on January 11, 2022, 08:02:32 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on January 10, 2022, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: yakra on January 10, 2022, 12:51:37 PM
Quotea   new   high-speed   business   loop
LOL. Compared to?

I was thinking that I-81BL would be somewhat similar to I-95BL in Fayetteville, NC (freeway on both ends, boulevard in middle).

It actually would be kind of similar to BL I-95 in Fayetteville. But wouldn’t this be also called 81? In other words, you would basically have two 81’s? This is why there are barely any business Interstates in the Northeast other than BL I-83 and BL I-376. “Take 81 south and get off at 81.”
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: hotdogPi on January 11, 2022, 08:23:47 AM
Maybe if it was actually signed as I-81B, as New York likes their suffixes. Normally, I would say that there needs to be an 81A before 81B could exist, but New York has a lot of skipped suffixes.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadsguy on January 11, 2022, 08:32:30 AM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on January 11, 2022, 08:02:32 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on January 10, 2022, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: yakra on January 10, 2022, 12:51:37 PM
Quotea   new   high-speed   business   loop
LOL. Compared to?

I was thinking that I-81BL would be somewhat similar to I-95BL in Fayetteville, NC (freeway on both ends, boulevard in middle).

It actually would be kind of similar to BL I-95 in Fayetteville. But wouldn't this be also called 81? In other words, you would basically have two 81's? This is why there are barely any business Interstates in the Northeast other than BL I-83 and BL I-376. "Take 81 south and get off at 81."

Or call it "Business 81" like the former Business 40 in North Carolina that apparently everyone still calls Business 40 anyway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Jim on January 11, 2022, 09:18:21 AM
Maybe I've said all of this somewhere in the 45 pages of this thread, but we're talking about designations here now so I'll summarize my thoughts on it.

I really don't like the idea of using an Interstate business loop designation and green shield for the old I-81 routing once that designation moves onto the current I-481.  At the very least, a 3di number with genuine red-white-and-blue I shields need to be used for the fully freeway segments north of the Thruway and south of I-690.  New York frequently uses a state touring route designation with the same number to continue 3di routes beyond portions that are part of the Interstate system.  So use a 3di number for the new route, and for the short portion that won't be a freeway in the middle (or even the whole segment between the Thruway and I-690), designate and sign it as a state touring route of the same number.  This option gives a single number for the old I-81 segment, maintains most of it as a properly-signed Interstate highway, and doesn't introduce what would be the only Interstate business loop northeast of the two in PA and one which is not even a proper use of that type of route designation.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: yakra on January 11, 2022, 03:17:34 PM
^ 3DI <-> 3DNY <-> 3DI, all the same number?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Jim on January 11, 2022, 03:41:22 PM
Quote from: yakra on January 11, 2022, 03:17:34 PM
^ 3DI <-> 3DNY <-> 3DI, all the same number?

Yes, admittedly all of the others have the 3DNY on just one end of a 3DI (I think), but this seems way better to me than BL I-81.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 11, 2022, 03:54:02 PM
Is there a date when the Interstate 481-to-81 conversion will occur? I would prefer that it happened before the freeway-to-community boulevard construction occurs.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 11, 2022, 03:56:05 PM
Quote from: Jim on January 11, 2022, 03:41:22 PM
Quote from: yakra on January 11, 2022, 03:17:34 PM
^ 3DI <-> 3DNY <-> 3DI, all the same number?

Yes, admittedly all of the others have the 3DNY on just one end of a 3DI (I think), but this seems way better to me than BL I-81.
I would be OK with entire southern portion being 3DNY
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on January 12, 2022, 09:06:47 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 09, 2022, 08:41:35 PM
Those who have been hoping that Hochul will put a stop to this project were surely very disappointed in the state of the state speech in which she mentioned removing I-81 and other roads.  From the accompanying policy book (https://www.governor.ny.gov/sites/default/files/2022-01/2022StateoftheStateBook.pdf):
Quote
The   Interstate   81   (I-81)   project   area   serves   as   an   essential   travel   corridor   for   the   
Central   New   York   Region,   especially   the   downtown   Syracuse   area,   and   has   been   
highlighted   by   both   President   Biden   and   Secretary   Buttigieg   as   reflective   of   the   
Administration's   priorities   on   equity,   economic   opportunity,   and   transforming   
neighborhoods   left   behind.

This   project   will   address   the   I-81   geometric,   structural,   and   safety   concerns   of   the   
viaduct   by   replacing   the   elevated   structure   with   a   community   grid   that   would   
disperse   traffic   along   local   north-south   streets.   It   will   create   a   new   high-speed   
business   loop   and   reconnect   neighborhoods   severed   by   construction   of   the   
interstate,   thereby   creating   opportunities   for   mixed-use   residential   and   commercial   
development.   The   project   would   also   construct   safe   pedestrian   and   bicycle   access   
for   users   of   all   ages   and   abilities   within   the   downtown   core.

Building   on   the   I-81   project,   Connecting   the   New   15th   Ward   is   a   plan   to   reimagine   
the   adjacent   118-acre   East   Adams   neighborhood,   where   over   1,000   units   of   public   
housing   are   currently   located.   The   revitalization   project   would   create   a   mixed-use,   
mixed-income   neighborhood   where   families   â€“ especially   children   â€“ can   thrive   and   
have   genuine   opportunities   for   successful   futures.

It's happening, folks.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 12, 2022, 10:12:22 AM
Quote from: ixnay on January 12, 2022, 09:06:47 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 09, 2022, 08:41:35 PM
Those who have been hoping that Hochul will put a stop to this project were surely very disappointed in the state of the state speech in which she mentioned removing I-81 and other roads.  From the accompanying policy book (https://www.governor.ny.gov/sites/default/files/2022-01/2022StateoftheStateBook.pdf):
Quote
TheInterstate81(I-81)projectareaservesasanessentialtravelcorridorforthe
CentralNewYorkRegion,especiallythedowntownSyracusearea,andhasbeen
highlightedbybothPresidentBidenandSecretaryButtigiegasreflectiveofthe
Administration'sprioritiesonequity,economicopportunity,andtransforming
neighborhoodsleftbehind.

ThisprojectwilladdresstheI-81geometric,structural,andsafetyconcernsofthe
viaductbyreplacingtheelevatedstructurewithacommunitygridthatwould
dispersetrafficalonglocalnorth-southstreets.Itwillcreateanewhigh-speed
businessloopandreconnectneighborhoodsseveredbyconstructionofthe
interstate,therebycreatingopportunitiesformixed-useresidentialandcommercial
development.Theprojectwouldalsoconstructsafepedestrianandbicycleaccess
forusersofallagesandabilitieswithinthedowntowncore.

BuildingontheI-81project,ConnectingtheNew15thWardisaplantoreimagine
theadjacent118-acreEastAdamsneighborhood,whereover1,000unitsofpublic
housingarecurrentlylocated.Therevitalizationprojectwouldcreateamixed-use,
mixed-incomeneighborhoodwherefamilies– especiallychildren– canthriveand
havegenuineopportunitiesforsuccessfulfutures.

It's happening, folks.
I am surprised that there are those that still think there's a chance that the Community Grid may not happen.  It's essentially been set in stone for quite a while.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: yakra on January 12, 2022, 03:52:01 PM
Quote from: Jim on January 11, 2022, 03:41:22 PM
Quote from: yakra on January 11, 2022, 03:17:34 PM
^ 3DI <-> 3DNY <-> 3DI, all the same number?
Yes, admittedly all of the others have the 3DNY on just one end of a 3DI (I think), but this seems way better to me than BL I-81.
I can't imagine the FHWA signing off on 2 separate same-numbered 3DI spurs in a state.

Quote from: kalvado on January 11, 2022, 03:56:05 PM
I would be OK with entire southern portion being 3DNY
IAWTP. Not 100% the same thing, but PA378 anyone?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on January 13, 2022, 11:27:47 AM
Quote from: yakra on January 12, 2022, 03:52:01 PM
Quote from: Jim on January 11, 2022, 03:41:22 PM
Quote from: yakra on January 11, 2022, 03:17:34 PM
^ 3DI <-> 3DNY <-> 3DI, all the same number?
Yes, admittedly all of the others have the 3DNY on just one end of a 3DI (I think), but this seems way better to me than BL I-81.
I can't imagine the FHWA signing off on 2 separate same-numbered 3DI spurs in a state.

Quote from: kalvado on January 11, 2022, 03:56:05 PM
I would be OK with entire southern portion being 3DNY
IAWTP. Not 100% the same thing, but PA378 anyone?

Or the southern part of BL 83 entering York, PA from the south?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on January 13, 2022, 11:38:52 AM
What gets me is this freeway removal purge taking place all of a sudden. It's like develop the rural areas to bring more traffic and get rid of the much needed freeways needed for the region that carries the extra burden brought on by the greedy land developers.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on January 13, 2022, 11:57:15 AM
^ This hasn't been "all of a sudden."  This is decades in the making and is in part the result of poor decisions made when building these freeways to begin with.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 13, 2022, 12:14:59 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 11:57:15 AM
^ This hasn't been "all of a sudden."  This is decades in the making and is in part the result of poor decisions made when building these freeways to begin with.
Though many would disagree that I-81 through downtown Syracuse would be considered a bad decision.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on January 13, 2022, 12:16:44 PM
^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:19:05 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 11:57:15 AM
^ This hasn't been "all of a sudden."  This is decades in the making and is in part the result of poor decisions made when building these freeways to begin with.
It can go even further to the roots of Syracuse - a crossroad city brought to life by Erie canal.
With decay of rust belt in general and canal transportation in particular, is there a good reason for the city co continue the existence? Or it is time to sunset? Too many places are actually  in same situation.

I am actually pretty curious - once I-81 is gone and Syracuse continues - if not accelerates - inevitable nosedive.. What would people be saying then?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:21:53 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 12:16:44 PM
^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.
Viaduct is not the critical part. Tight geometry - meaning things like bricks from collapsing buildings falling on a highway https://www.syracuse.com/news/2010/03/crumbling_syracuse_building_ke.html (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2010/03/crumbling_syracuse_building_ke.html) -  is the major factor preventing rebuild as-is and is the most critical part, IMHO.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 12:28:53 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:21:53 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 12:16:44 PM
^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.
Viaduct is not the critical part. Tight geometry - meaning things like bricks from collapsing buildings falling on a highway https://www.syracuse.com/news/2010/03/crumbling_syracuse_building_ke.html (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2010/03/crumbling_syracuse_building_ke.html) -  is the major factor preventing rebuild as-is and is the most critical part, IMHO.
That was a one-off incident.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 12:31:38 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:19:05 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 11:57:15 AM
^ This hasn't been "all of a sudden."  This is decades in the making and is in part the result of poor decisions made when building these freeways to begin with.
It can go even further to the roots of Syracuse - a crossroad city brought to life by Erie canal.
With decay of rust belt in general and canal transportation in particular, is there a good reason for the city co continue the existence? Or it is time to sunset? Too many places are actually  in same situation.

I am actually pretty curious - once I-81 is gone and Syracuse continues - if not accelerates - inevitable nosedive.. What would people be saying then?
I don't know if Syracuse is nosediving.  Healthcare industry has taken hold and is expanding.  Syracuse University and other colleges are still major employers.

What befuddles me has been the recent proliferation of luxury apartment building in downtown -- plans that extended from before the pandemic.  I can't figure out who is renting them.  You also have the Franklin Square bourgeois area.

The Crucible plant is still open...

I'd call Syracuse "treading water."
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:34:56 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 12:28:53 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:21:53 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 12:16:44 PM
^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.
Viaduct is not the critical part. Tight geometry - meaning things like bricks from collapsing buildings falling on a highway https://www.syracuse.com/news/2010/03/crumbling_syracuse_building_ke.html (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2010/03/crumbling_syracuse_building_ke.html) -  is the major factor preventing rebuild as-is and is the most critical part, IMHO.
That was a one-off incident.
One off event which, however, shows how tight things are in there. My bet is had ROW been available, by now the viaduct would be rebuilt without much discussion.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:41:46 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 12:31:38 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:19:05 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 11:57:15 AM
^ This hasn't been "all of a sudden."  This is decades in the making and is in part the result of poor decisions made when building these freeways to begin with.
It can go even further to the roots of Syracuse - a crossroad city brought to life by Erie canal.
With decay of rust belt in general and canal transportation in particular, is there a good reason for the city co continue the existence? Or it is time to sunset? Too many places are actually  in same situation.

I am actually pretty curious - once I-81 is gone and Syracuse continues - if not accelerates - inevitable nosedive.. What would people be saying then?
I don't know if Syracuse is nosediving.  Healthcare industry has taken hold and is expanding.  Syracuse University and other colleges are still major employers.

What befuddles me has been the recent proliferation of luxury apartment building in downtown -- plans that extended from before the pandemic.  I can't figure out who is renting them.  You also have the Franklin Square bourgeois area.

The Crucible plant is still open...

I'd call Syracuse "treading water."
Maybe I am overly pessimistic; there is definitely some things happening.  We were talking about all that upstream, no real need to reiterate. But I don't see things in Syracuse becoming better than they are.  Easily growing worse.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 02:28:35 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:34:56 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 12:28:53 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:21:53 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 12:16:44 PM
^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.
Viaduct is not the critical part. Tight geometry - meaning things like bricks from collapsing buildings falling on a highway https://www.syracuse.com/news/2010/03/crumbling_syracuse_building_ke.html (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2010/03/crumbling_syracuse_building_ke.html) -  is the major factor preventing rebuild as-is and is the most critical part, IMHO.
That was a one-off incident.
One off event which, however, shows how tight things are in there. My bet is had ROW been available, by now the viaduct would be rebuilt without much discussion.
That is a huge if the size of Montana.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 02:29:48 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:41:46 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 12:31:38 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 12:19:05 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 11:57:15 AM
^ This hasn't been "all of a sudden."  This is decades in the making and is in part the result of poor decisions made when building these freeways to begin with.
It can go even further to the roots of Syracuse - a crossroad city brought to life by Erie canal.
With decay of rust belt in general and canal transportation in particular, is there a good reason for the city co continue the existence? Or it is time to sunset? Too many places are actually  in same situation.

I am actually pretty curious - once I-81 is gone and Syracuse continues - if not accelerates - inevitable nosedive.. What would people be saying then?
I don't know if Syracuse is nosediving.  Healthcare industry has taken hold and is expanding.  Syracuse University and other colleges are still major employers.

What befuddles me has been the recent proliferation of luxury apartment building in downtown -- plans that extended from before the pandemic.  I can't figure out who is renting them.  You also have the Franklin Square bourgeois area.

The Crucible plant is still open...

I'd call Syracuse "treading water."
Maybe I am overly pessimistic; there is definitely some things happening.  We were talking about all that upstream, no real need to reiterate. But I don't see things in Syracuse becoming better than they are.  Easily growing worse.
Nah, not easily growing worse.  There is a lot of change happening downtown.  It's like the openings and closures cancel each other out, while the major vacancies remain constant.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 02:47:25 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 02:28:35 PM
That is a huge if the size of Montana.
Well, you may compare that to 787 rebuilt.
Quote from: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 02:29:48 PM
Nah, not easily growing worse.  There is a lot of change happening downtown.  It's like the openings and closures cancel each other out, while the major vacancies remain constant.
And overall it's a slow rot. What Syracuse actually need is a ton of good jobs, in addition to existing bundle. Restaurants and apartments are not really cutting it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: MATraveler128 on January 13, 2022, 02:51:14 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 13, 2022, 11:38:52 AM
What gets me is this freeway removal purge taking place all of a sudden. It's like develop the rural areas to bring more traffic and get rid of the much needed freeways needed for the region that carries the extra burden brought on by the greedy land developers.

There was of course the removal of the Sheridan Expressway in the Bronx. I didn't see any residents complain about that.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 13, 2022, 03:26:57 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 12:16:44 PM
^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.
I hate to beat a dead horse here but there was a tunnel option. Why not build a setup that allows a tunnel to be potentially constructed off into the future when/if we can ever get our costs down? I feel as if we'll have better technology/engineering methods that will make tunnel construction more feasible.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Strider on January 13, 2022, 03:34:22 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on January 13, 2022, 02:51:14 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 13, 2022, 11:38:52 AM
What gets me is this freeway removal purge taking place all of a sudden. It's like develop the rural areas to bring more traffic and get rid of the much needed freeways needed for the region that carries the extra burden brought on by the greedy land developers.

There was of course the removal of the Sheridan Expressway in the Bronx. I didn't see any residents complain about that.

they have easy access to I-95 to the north and I-278 to the south, and the Sheridan is only like 2 or 3 miles between both ends. That is why you don't hear any residents complain about that.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 03:50:51 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 13, 2022, 03:26:57 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 12:16:44 PM
^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.
I hate to beat a dead horse here but there was a tunnel option. Why not build a setup that allows a tunnel to be potentially constructed off into the future when/if we can ever get our costs down? I feel as if we'll have better technology/engineering methods that will make tunnel construction more feasible.
I hate to beat a rotten horse corpse, but tunnel is not an option. Heck, US cannot afford rebuilding much more critical Amtrak NYC-NJ tunnel for what, 15 years and counting? 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 13, 2022, 03:52:15 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 03:50:51 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 13, 2022, 03:26:57 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 12:16:44 PM
^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.
I hate to beat a dead horse here but there was a tunnel option. Why not build a setup that allows a tunnel to be potentially constructed off into the future when/if we can ever get our costs down? I feel as if we'll have better technology/engineering methods that will make tunnel construction more feasible.
I hate to beat a rotten horse corpse, but tunnel is not an option. Heck, US cannot afford rebuilding much more critical Amtrak NYC-NJ tunnel for what, 15 years and counting?
It's not an option because of our ridiculous laws that make our infrastructure the most expensive in the world to build. So why just accept that and have the mindset that can't ever change?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 03:56:15 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 13, 2022, 03:52:15 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 03:50:51 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 13, 2022, 03:26:57 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 12:16:44 PM
^ Many would disagree, but the fact remains that making that part of 81 a viaduct has contributed to the current mess.
I hate to beat a dead horse here but there was a tunnel option. Why not build a setup that allows a tunnel to be potentially constructed off into the future when/if we can ever get our costs down? I feel as if we'll have better technology/engineering methods that will make tunnel construction more feasible.
I hate to beat a rotten horse corpse, but tunnel is not an option. Heck, US cannot afford rebuilding much more critical Amtrak NYC-NJ tunnel for what, 15 years and counting?
It's not an option because of our ridiculous laws that make our infrastructure the most expensive in the world to build. So why just accept that and have the mindset that can't ever change?
It's not an option because of ridiculous geological situation in the city. But keep going, we all know education decline preceded technological decline, and we need more proof for that to be presented.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 13, 2022, 03:59:52 PM
So anyone else interested in having a debate without using ad hominem?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on January 13, 2022, 04:16:44 PM
How would you propose to build a $4.9 billion tunnel when there are many projects backlogged in the state? Who would pay for the extremely expensive project that would serve less than 70,000 AADT? If I am not mistaken, there were also geological complications that would make a tunnel much more expensive to construct than normal. Factor in the usual bloat (political, environmental, etc.), there isn't a feasible way to reduce construction costs and there just isn't going to be the push to do so without having to radically transform how infrastructure is planned, designed, funded, and constructed in this nation.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 13, 2022, 04:25:22 PM
Quote from: seicer on January 13, 2022, 04:16:44 PM
How would you propose to build a $4.9 billion tunnel when there are many projects backlogged in the state? Who would pay for the extremely expensive project that would serve less than 70,000 AADT? If I am not mistaken, there were also geological complications that would make a tunnel much more expensive to construct than normal. Factor in the usual bloat (political, environmental, etc.), there isn't a feasible way to reduce construction costs and there just isn't going to be the push to do so without having to radically transform how infrastructure is planned, designed, funded, and constructed in this nation.
I guess the argument is that things can be done Robert Moses style on a cheap. Point here is that geology would still make going through city center pretty expensive even if all the regulations be damned
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 13, 2022, 04:30:42 PM
Quote from: seicer on January 13, 2022, 04:16:44 PM
How would you propose to build a $4.9 billion tunnel when there are many projects backlogged in the state? Who would pay for the extremely expensive project that would serve less than 70,000 AADT? If I am not mistaken, there were also geological complications that would make a tunnel much more expensive to construct than normal. Factor in the usual bloat (political, environmental, etc.), there isn't a feasible way to reduce construction costs and there just isn't going to be the push to do so without having to radically transform how infrastructure is planned, designed, funded, and constructed in this nation.
Well if you read my post I suggested we hold off on building the tunnel but design the project so a tunnel with portals can be built in the future. We can then focus on building a transformative road through Syracuse that enhances alternative transportation and work on getting to bigger pressing needs that we've been neglecting for decades. While we do that we can also work to sensibly remove red tape laws or give exemptions to major/critical projects.

Perhaps down the road, we can revisit building a tunnel that other countries could build today for a billion or so while we tell ourselves we can't do it for anything less than 5 billion dollars.

So instead of knee jerk reactions and pathetic attempts at insults like the other poster seems love, if you disagree then tell me your plan? If we remove this because it goes through the city center and isn't respectful of the neighborhoods then why shouldn't every other city in America do the same thing?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: D-Dey65 on January 13, 2022, 06:06:27 PM
Quote from: Strider on January 13, 2022, 03:34:22 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on January 13, 2022, 02:51:14 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 13, 2022, 11:38:52 AM
What gets me is this freeway removal purge taking place all of a sudden. It's like develop the rural areas to bring more traffic and get rid of the much needed freeways needed for the region that carries the extra burden brought on by the greedy land developers.

There was of course the removal of the Sheridan Expressway in the Bronx. I didn't see any residents complain about that.

they have easy access to I-95 to the north and I-278 to the south, and the Sheridan is only like 2 or 3 miles between both ends. That is why you don't hear any residents complain about that.
Maybe because too many of them don't understand the need for any type of limited-access highway, and have been conditioned to associate them with urban decay and racial discrimination, even if it has nothing to do with the subjects.

At least I-81 was completed in Syracuse and the rest of the state, unlike the Sheridan which was turned into a dead end at I-95.


Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on January 13, 2022, 08:32:20 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 13, 2022, 04:30:42 PM
Quote from: seicer on January 13, 2022, 04:16:44 PM
How would you propose to build a $4.9 billion tunnel when there are many projects backlogged in the state? Who would pay for the extremely expensive project that would serve less than 70,000 AADT? If I am not mistaken, there were also geological complications that would make a tunnel much more expensive to construct than normal. Factor in the usual bloat (political, environmental, etc.), there isn't a feasible way to reduce construction costs and there just isn't going to be the push to do so without having to radically transform how infrastructure is planned, designed, funded, and constructed in this nation.
Well if you read my post I suggested we hold off on building the tunnel but design the project so a tunnel with portals can be built in the future. We can then focus on building a transformative road through Syracuse that enhances alternative transportation and work on getting to bigger pressing needs that we've been neglecting for decades. While we do that we can also work to sensibly remove red tape laws or give exemptions to major/critical projects.

Perhaps down the road, we can revisit building a tunnel that other countries could build today for a billion or so while we tell ourselves we can't do it for anything less than 5 billion dollars.

So instead of knee jerk reactions and pathetic attempts at insults like the other poster seems love, if you disagree then tell me your plan? If we remove this because it goes through the city center and isn't respectful of the neighborhoods then why shouldn't every other city in America do the same thing?

Nothing knee-jerk about it; you are just taking it personally when someone disagrees with your viewpoint that we should just build portals to a tunnel with funds that don't exist for a tunnel that won't really exist in our lifetimes - or any lifetime. No highway DOT has built in the past at high expense roadway stubs with the goal of using it as a tool to push a highway through later. Countless examples litter across the US with examples of the reverse; stubs or ghostly remains of highways that were canceled through urban centers. This would be another example of that.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 13, 2022, 08:46:02 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 12:31:38 PM
What befuddles me has been the recent proliferation of luxury apartment building in downtown -- plans that extended from before the pandemic.  I can't figure out who is renting them.
A lot of luxury apartments aren't actually meant to be rented, but are rather just a place for investors to park their money.  I'm not sure how that actually works given property taxes and whatnot, but apparently they can make money by valuing the place at the potential profit if the units were actually all rented.  Maybe they rent just enough to cover the taxes?  That would explain why so many "luxury" units are cheaply constructed and have poor maintenance and customer service.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 13, 2022, 09:23:01 PM
Quote from: seicer on January 13, 2022, 08:32:20 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 13, 2022, 04:30:42 PM
Quote from: seicer on January 13, 2022, 04:16:44 PM
How would you propose to build a $4.9 billion tunnel when there are many projects backlogged in the state? Who would pay for the extremely expensive project that would serve less than 70,000 AADT? If I am not mistaken, there were also geological complications that would make a tunnel much more expensive to construct than normal. Factor in the usual bloat (political, environmental, etc.), there isn't a feasible way to reduce construction costs and there just isn't going to be the push to do so without having to radically transform how infrastructure is planned, designed, funded, and constructed in this nation.
Well if you read my post I suggested we hold off on building the tunnel but design the project so a tunnel with portals can be built in the future. We can then focus on building a transformative road through Syracuse that enhances alternative transportation and work on getting to bigger pressing needs that we've been neglecting for decades. While we do that we can also work to sensibly remove red tape laws or give exemptions to major/critical projects.

Perhaps down the road, we can revisit building a tunnel that other countries could build today for a billion or so while we tell ourselves we can't do it for anything less than 5 billion dollars.

So instead of knee jerk reactions and pathetic attempts at insults like the other poster seems love, if you disagree then tell me your plan? If we remove this because it goes through the city center and isn't respectful of the neighborhoods then why shouldn't every other city in America do the same thing?

Nothing knee-jerk about it; you are just taking it personally when someone disagrees with your viewpoint that we should just build portals to a tunnel with funds that don't exist for a tunnel that won't really exist in our lifetimes - or any lifetime. No highway DOT has built in the past at high expense roadway stubs with the goal of using it as a tool to push a highway through later. Countless examples litter across the US with examples of the reverse; stubs or ghostly remains of highways that were canceled through urban centers. This would be another example of that.
I don't think I'm the one taking it personally. I'd say that about someone who feels the need to insult someone else because they have a different opinion of how a freeway should be built :p

I also disageee about the stubs comparison to building for a future tunnel. The stubs that were built actually were for surface or elevated freeways planned to tear through neighborhoods. Not sure that's a valid comparison to a tunnel passing underneath them. Lots of great opportunities for tunnels at stubs however whenever we can decide as a country to get serious about infrastructure instead of consistently acting like it's too expensive to building anything other than boulevards.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 09:55:18 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 13, 2022, 08:46:02 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 12:31:38 PM
What befuddles me has been the recent proliferation of luxury apartment building in downtown -- plans that extended from before the pandemic.  I can't figure out who is renting them.
A lot of luxury apartments aren't actually meant to be rented, but are rather just a place for investors to park their money.  I'm not sure how that actually works given property taxes and whatnot, but apparently they can make money by valuing the place at the potential profit if the units were actually all rented.  Maybe they rent just enough to cover the taxes?  That would explain why so many "luxury" units are cheaply constructed and have poor maintenance and customer service.
These are pretty well occupied from looking around downtown.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on January 13, 2022, 11:09:34 PM
This has been all of a sudden and is reflective of a change in what is considered a good vs. bad decision, and is compounded by previous projects never constructed that would divert traffic from the segments now considered bad.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on January 14, 2022, 09:50:50 AM
Quote from: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 09:55:18 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 13, 2022, 08:46:02 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 13, 2022, 12:31:38 PM
What befuddles me has been the recent proliferation of luxury apartment building in downtown -- plans that extended from before the pandemic.  I can't figure out who is renting them.
A lot of luxury apartments aren't actually meant to be rented, but are rather just a place for investors to park their money.  I'm not sure how that actually works given property taxes and whatnot, but apparently they can make money by valuing the place at the potential profit if the units were actually all rented.  Maybe they rent just enough to cover the taxes?  That would explain why so many "luxury" units are cheaply constructed and have poor maintenance and customer service.
These are pretty well occupied from looking around downtown.

At or near 100% occupied, with variances for routine moves. I photographed and documented many of the projects for several developers and the change in activity street-level has been profound in just a few years. The next big push is to fill in the empty parking lots (that produce no tax revenue) between downtown and College Hill and stabilize and rehab the many grand houses in near-downtown. But for whatever activity that happens in the center part of the city, the metro area isn't really growing all that much. It's almost a zero-sum game but without a healthy heart, the rest of the body will deteriorate.

Right now, there are at least 2 large firms looking to snatch up some underutilized lots along the future BL I-81 corridor for residential developments. Land is devalued now but now that this project is a sure-deal, expect those land values to increase.

As a sidebar: There is an issue with empty condos but that affects mostly high-priced locales like New York City, where you have half of entire skyscrapers stand empty. Apartments generally don't get affected by investments companies. The Atlantic had a great article on it: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/american-housing-has-gone-insane/605005/
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on January 14, 2022, 11:12:18 AM
Quote from: froggie on January 13, 2022, 11:57:15 AM
^ This hasn't been "all of a sudden."  This is decades in the making and is in part the result of poor decisions made when building these freeways to begin with.



I am aware of the conditions brought on by it all. The viaduct is in dyer need of replacement. So this was the best option out of others.

I am talking about this purge all of a sudden as other cities are studying this option like Dallas for a very congested freeway.  It's not like the Sheridan which ended up becoming incomplete due to cancelling the part from it's northern end to somewhere along the New England Thruway, which made it useless.

It's like we are going backwards instead of forwards. No I am not progressive except when it comes to technology though.  However, if it's a much needed freeway and if developers keep building ( which we all know won't stop) they increase the need for more autos and the need for these roads due to not going for alternative transportation.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 26, 2022, 04:11:29 PM
THIS HAS GONE ON TOO LONG (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2022/01/gov-hochul-confirms-nys-is-replacing-i-81-with-community-grid-this-has-gone-on-too-long.html).

It's gettin' all serious up in NYSDOT now...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 26, 2022, 04:17:45 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 26, 2022, 04:11:29 PM
THIS HAS GONE ON TOO LONG (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2022/01/gov-hochul-confirms-nys-is-replacing-i-81-with-community-grid-this-has-gone-on-too-long.html).

It's gettin' all serious up in NYSDOT now...
So... is something  going to actually happen this summer?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 26, 2022, 04:22:43 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 26, 2022, 04:17:45 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 26, 2022, 04:11:29 PM
THIS HAS GONE ON TOO LONG (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2022/01/gov-hochul-confirms-nys-is-replacing-i-81-with-community-grid-this-has-gone-on-too-long.html).

It's gettin' all serious up in NYSDOT now...
So... is something  going to actually happen this summer?

Sure.  Things are happening now.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: silverback1065 on January 26, 2022, 08:45:49 PM
"Street level community grid"  :-D pure political bullshit. I support the removal, but that's a total PR line  :-D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 27, 2022, 03:05:58 PM
Here is another story about the project from Curbed: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/about-time-syracuse-s-i-81-is-finally-being-demolished/ar-AATbdGs?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on March 07, 2022, 06:02:57 PM
I'm curious to find out what the Thruway does with signing the new configurations at the appropriate interchanges. 

Exit 36 - BL 81 - Syracuse / Syracuse Airport?
Exit 34A - I-81 - Binghamton / Watertown?
will Oswego and Chittenango lose their destination status on the main signs?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on March 07, 2022, 06:38:36 PM
Quote from: machias on March 07, 2022, 06:02:57 PM
I'm curious to find out what the Thruway does with signing the new configurations at the appropriate interchanges. 

Exit 36 - BL 81 - Syracuse / Syracuse Airport?
Exit 34A - I-81 - Binghamton / Watertown?
will Oswego and Chittenango lose their destination status on the main signs?
That area is unaffected by the project.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on March 07, 2022, 09:01:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2022, 06:38:36 PM
Quote from: machias on March 07, 2022, 06:02:57 PM
I'm curious to find out what the Thruway does with signing the new configurations at the appropriate interchanges. 

Exit 36 - BL 81 - Syracuse / Syracuse Airport?
Exit 34A - I-81 - Binghamton / Watertown?
will Oswego and Chittenango lose their destination status on the main signs?
That area is unaffected by the project.

Well the interchange sign for Exit 36 (Currently I-81 Watertown / Binghamton) isn't going to lead motorists to I-81 anymore, it'll be BL 81. And I'm assuming I-481 won't exist anymore so having an I-481 marker on Exit 34A seems rather pointless. So yes, those signs along the Thruway for the appropriate interchanges will certainly be affected by the project. My question is, will the Thruway relabel the interchanges, or with Exit 34A just say I-81 Oswego/Syracuse. Will they just slap a blue patch over the "4" in 481?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on March 07, 2022, 10:03:36 PM
Quote from: machias on March 07, 2022, 09:01:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2022, 06:38:36 PM
Quote from: machias on March 07, 2022, 06:02:57 PM
I'm curious to find out what the Thruway does with signing the new configurations at the appropriate interchanges. 

Exit 36 - BL 81 - Syracuse / Syracuse Airport?
Exit 34A - I-81 - Binghamton / Watertown?
will Oswego and Chittenango lose their destination status on the main signs?
That area is unaffected by the project.

Well the interchange sign for Exit 36 (Currently I-81 Watertown / Binghamton) isn't going to lead motorists to I-81 anymore, it'll be BL 81. And I'm assuming I-481 won't exist anymore so having an I-481 marker on Exit 34A seems rather pointless. So yes, those signs along the Thruway for the appropriate interchanges will certainly be affected by the project. My question is, will the Thruway relabel the interchanges, or with Exit 34A just say I-81 Oswego/Syracuse. Will they just slap a blue patch over the "4" in 481?
Ah, signage.  I read too quickly.  Yep, signage will change.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on March 09, 2022, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: machias on March 07, 2022, 09:01:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2022, 06:38:36 PM
Quote from: machias on March 07, 2022, 06:02:57 PM
I’m curious to find out what the Thruway does with signing the new configurations at the appropriate interchanges. 

Exit 36 - BL 81 - Syracuse / Syracuse Airport?
Exit 34A - I-81 - Binghamton / Watertown?
will Oswego and Chittenango lose their destination status on the main signs?
That area is unaffected by the project.

Well the interchange sign for Exit 36 (Currently I-81 Watertown / Binghamton) isn't going to lead motorists to I-81 anymore, it'll be BL 81. And I'm assuming I-481 won't exist anymore so having an I-481 marker on Exit 34A seems rather pointless. So yes, those signs along the Thruway for the appropriate interchanges will certainly be affected by the project. My question is, will the Thruway relabel the interchanges, or with Exit 34A just say I-81 Oswego/Syracuse. Will they just slap a blue patch over the "4" in 481?

Watertown at 36 might end up staying as BL I-81 is still freeway connecting to I-81 north, however Binghamton May get greened out for Syracuse.  34A might see Watertown and Binghamton replace what is there now and Syracuse on supplemental signs instead.

https://goo.gl/maps/wHrTCBFYGSreGwzN9
The 34A ramp, though, already includes I-81 destinations.  Though why mention the Fairgrounds when Exit 39 is the exit to take for that is beyond comprehension to include with this.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on March 09, 2022, 09:07:31 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on March 09, 2022, 08:44:58 PM
Quote from: machias on March 07, 2022, 09:01:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2022, 06:38:36 PM
Quote from: machias on March 07, 2022, 06:02:57 PM
I'm curious to find out what the Thruway does with signing the new configurations at the appropriate interchanges. 

Exit 36 - BL 81 - Syracuse / Syracuse Airport?
Exit 34A - I-81 - Binghamton / Watertown?
will Oswego and Chittenango lose their destination status on the main signs?
That area is unaffected by the project.

Well the interchange sign for Exit 36 (Currently I-81 Watertown / Binghamton) isn't going to lead motorists to I-81 anymore, it'll be BL 81. And I'm assuming I-481 won't exist anymore so having an I-481 marker on Exit 34A seems rather pointless. So yes, those signs along the Thruway for the appropriate interchanges will certainly be affected by the project. My question is, will the Thruway relabel the interchanges, or with Exit 34A just say I-81 Oswego/Syracuse. Will they just slap a blue patch over the "4" in 481?

Watertown at 36 might end up staying as BL I-81 is still freeway connecting to I-81 north, however Binghamton May get greened out for Syracuse.  34A might see Watertown and Binghamton replace what is there now and Syracuse on supplemental signs instead.

https://goo.gl/maps/wHrTCBFYGSreGwzN9
The 34A ramp, though, already includes I-81 destinations.  Though why mention the Fairgrounds when Exit 39 is the exit to take for that is beyond comprehension to include with this.
While exit 39 is naturally the exit for the Fair if coming from Rochester or Buffalo, I don't see why someone coming from Utica or Albany would go that way.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TonyTrafficLight on March 10, 2022, 09:43:57 AM
Quote from: vdeane on March 09, 2022, 09:07:31 PM

While exit 39 is naturally the exit for the Fair if coming from Rochester or Buffalo, I don't see why someone coming from Utica or Albany would go that way.

I've never taken Exit 39 for the State Fair. 34A to Rt 690 is how i've always gone coming from Rome and Exit 32 or 33.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: dzheng35 on March 17, 2022, 01:20:48 PM
This leads me to wonder how will people get to the mall or the airport after the project finishes within a decade if it's no longer going to be near the interstate after its rerouting. Because for the past years before the COVID craziness, my family has been going to the mall every Black Friday and there were times when we would go to the Syracuse Airport to pick up or drop somebody.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cockroachking on March 17, 2022, 08:29:02 PM
Quote from: dzheng35 on March 17, 2022, 01:20:48 PM
This leads me to wonder how will people get to the mall or the airport after the project finishes within a decade if it's no longer going to be near the interstate after its rerouting. Because for the past years before the COVID craziness, my family has been going to the mall every Black Friday and there were times when we would go to the Syracuse Airport to pick up or drop somebody.
If coming from the south, either take the "community grid" through downtown, or take present-day I-481 to I-690. Since the latter is 9 minutes or so longer now, I would imagine the "community grid" will still be the quickest after completion.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: dzheng35 on March 26, 2022, 04:12:57 PM
Why can't something similar to this happen with I-68 through Cumberland Maryland by building a bypass around Cumberland and demolishing the I-68 viaduct and turning that into a community grid?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on March 26, 2022, 06:29:16 PM
The topography around Cumberland is completely different than Syracuse. Whereas Syracuse had ample room for a bypass with plenty of spaced-out interchanges, Cumberland is surrounded by linear mountains that creep up over 1,700 feet. There aren't really any good crossings over the mountains, and you'd probably have to run I-68 south of the city over the N. Branch Potomac River, across Short Gap, and then around Cresaptown which would involve substantial property takings, a route by the airport's runways, and still involve steep grades.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: davewiecking on March 27, 2022, 02:11:16 PM
Quote from: dzheng35 on March 26, 2022, 04:12:57 PM
Why can't something similar to this happen with I-68 through Cumberland Maryland by building a bypass around Cumberland and demolishing the I-68 viaduct and turning that into a community grid?

Syracuse has an already-existing I-481 bypass that can take over I-81. Hagerstown's Cumberland's suburbs have no such thing, nor as has been noted, the topography to allow one to be built at a reasonable cost and without unreasonable disruption to the area.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on March 27, 2022, 02:25:23 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on March 27, 2022, 02:11:16 PM
Quote from: dzheng35 on March 26, 2022, 04:12:57 PM
Why can't something similar to this happen with I-68 through Cumberland Maryland by building a bypass around Cumberland and demolishing the I-68 viaduct and turning that into a community grid?

Syracuse has an already-existing I-481 bypass that can take over I-81. Hagerstown's suburbs have no such thing, nor as has been noted, the topography to allow one to be built at a reasonable cost and without unreasonable disruption to the area.
Hagerstown?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: davewiecking on March 27, 2022, 05:22:24 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 27, 2022, 02:25:23 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on March 27, 2022, 02:11:16 PM
Quote from: dzheng35 on March 26, 2022, 04:12:57 PM
Why can't something similar to this happen with I-68 through Cumberland Maryland by building a bypass around Cumberland and demolishing the I-68 viaduct and turning that into a community grid?

Syracuse has an already-existing I-481 bypass that can take over I-81. Hagerstown's suburbs have no such thing, nor as has been noted, the topography to allow one to be built at a reasonable cost and without unreasonable disruption to the area.
Hagerstown?

Thank you...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on March 27, 2022, 06:36:34 PM
How much would have to be torn down to "hypothetically"  reconstruct the substandard segment of Interstate 68 in Cumberland to Interstate Standards?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on March 27, 2022, 08:50:07 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 27, 2022, 06:36:34 PM
How much would have to be torn down to "hypothetically"  reconstruct the substandard segment of Interstate 68 in Cumberland to Interstate Standards?
Given what would have been torn down in Syracuse, I'd imagine more than what people may think.  In Syracuse, at least there was space on the west side of the viaduct (still would have required massive ROW acquisition).  In Cumberland, I-68 was really squeezed through the city, much more tightly.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on March 27, 2022, 10:28:36 PM
I'm not sure it would be worth the expense but it's a densely populated area. Just to straighten out the curves would mean taking out some newly redeveloped areas near the viaduct - a spillover from the tourism generated by the Western Maryland Scenic Railway. It's also along the federal C&O Canal National Historical Park. I think that alone may be a non-starter to doing any major widening of the existing viaduct.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on March 28, 2022, 12:15:57 AM
Hello section 4(f), killer of project schedules.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on March 28, 2022, 09:52:42 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 28, 2022, 12:15:57 AM
Hello section 4(f), killer of project schedules.
And for those of us who don't know which legal document you're referring to?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on March 28, 2022, 10:37:05 AM
Quote from: kalvado on March 28, 2022, 09:52:42 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 28, 2022, 12:15:57 AM
Hello section 4(f), killer of project schedules.
And for those of us who don't know which legal document you're referring to?
USDOT Act of 1966.  Once public lands are involved, it kicks off an entire convoluted federal subprocess.

I was referring to the NPS C&O Canal site in Cumberland, rather than I-81.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on April 15, 2022, 08:42:41 PM
Final design: https://www.localsyr.com/news/future-of-81/highlights-of-the-i-81-viaduct-project-final-environmental-impact-statement/
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 15, 2022, 09:09:21 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 15, 2022, 08:42:41 PM
Final design: https://www.localsyr.com/news/future-of-81/highlights-of-the-i-81-viaduct-project-final-environmental-impact-statement/
Well, FEIS, anyway.  Next stop, ROD.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: abqtraveler on April 15, 2022, 10:38:49 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 15, 2022, 09:09:21 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 15, 2022, 08:42:41 PM
Final design: https://www.localsyr.com/news/future-of-81/highlights-of-the-i-81-viaduct-project-final-environmental-impact-statement/
Well, FEIS, anyway.  Next stop, ROD.
I though the FHWA was publishing FEISs and RODs concurrently as a way to streamline the NEPA process. Why is that not the case here?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 15, 2022, 10:50:30 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on April 15, 2022, 10:38:49 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 15, 2022, 09:09:21 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 15, 2022, 08:42:41 PM
Final design: https://www.localsyr.com/news/future-of-81/highlights-of-the-i-81-viaduct-project-final-environmental-impact-statement/
Well, FEIS, anyway.  Next stop, ROD.
I though the FHWA was publishing FEISs and RODs concurrently as a way to streamline the NEPA process. Why is that not the case here?
Not sure, but I haven't heard the ROD being signed off on yet.

FHWA's done some weird things with this one, though.  Legal sufficiency was strangely timed...some cart before the horse kinds of things.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on April 15, 2022, 11:02:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 15, 2022, 09:09:21 PMNext stop, ROD.

Refresh my memory.  What's an ROD?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Anthony_JK on April 15, 2022, 11:56:05 PM
Record of Decision. It reflects FHWA's final approval of the selected alternative and the final passage of the NEPA/Section 106 environmental analysis process.

A 45 day period of comments from designated agencies and the public is normally given following the release of the Final EIS in order to solicit public comment; then, unless there is some significant opposition or any changes in impacts, the ROD is then approved, signed and released to the public.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 15, 2022, 11:58:15 PM
Quote from: Anthony_JK on April 15, 2022, 11:56:05 PM
Record of Decision. It reflects FHWA's final approval of the selected alternative and the final passage of the NEPA/Section 106 environmental analysis process.

A 45 day period of comments from designated agencies and the public is normally given following the release of the Final EIS in order to solicit public comment; then, unless there is some significant opposition or any changes in impacts, the ROD is then approved, signed and released to the public.
Definitely waiting on any new comments (i.e., comments not previously addressed) in this case.  Lawsuits are also expected.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on April 17, 2022, 07:01:42 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 27, 2022, 08:50:07 PMIn Syracuse, at least there was space on the west side of the viaduct (still would have required massive ROW acquisition).

Per Google Sat, I don't see too much open space west of the viaduct.  Some parking lots, but also the Pioneer Homes, the McMahon Child Advocacy Center, a parking garage, and a couple of other things.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: CtrlAltDel on April 17, 2022, 07:08:11 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 15, 2022, 08:42:41 PM
Final design: https://www.localsyr.com/news/future-of-81/highlights-of-the-i-81-viaduct-project-final-environmental-impact-statement/

Officially released on Good Friday? Is there something they're trying to hide?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 17, 2022, 10:22:45 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on April 17, 2022, 07:08:11 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 15, 2022, 08:42:41 PM
Final design: https://www.localsyr.com/news/future-of-81/highlights-of-the-i-81-viaduct-project-final-environmental-impact-statement/

Officially released on Good Friday? Is there something they're trying to hide?
Right.  The thing was distributed online and hard copies of the thousands of pages distributed to libraries and available for reading at DOT's Regional office.

And, because it was done on a holiday not observed by the State, NYSDOT is trying to hide something.

Puh-leeeeeze.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 17, 2022, 10:24:03 PM
Quote from: ixnay on April 17, 2022, 07:01:42 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 27, 2022, 08:50:07 PMIn Syracuse, at least there was space on the west side of the viaduct (still would have required massive ROW acquisition).

Per Google Sat, I don't see too much open space west of the viaduct.  Some parking lots, but also the Pioneer Homes, the McMahon Child Advocacy Center, a parking garage, and a couple of other things.
We were comparing it to Cumberland.

See the space between Adams and I-690 on the backside of the towers.  There's more space there than in Cumberland.

Context matters...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: CtrlAltDel on April 17, 2022, 11:12:32 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 17, 2022, 10:22:45 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on April 17, 2022, 07:08:11 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 15, 2022, 08:42:41 PM
Final design: https://www.localsyr.com/news/future-of-81/highlights-of-the-i-81-viaduct-project-final-environmental-impact-statement/

Officially released on Good Friday? Is there something they're trying to hide?
Right.  The thing was distributed online and hard copies of the thousands of pages distributed to libraries and available for reading at DOT's Regional office.

And, because it was done on a holiday not observed by the State, NYSDOT is trying to hide something.

Puh-leeeeeze.

It's a legit question that frankly doesn't warrant your derisive sarcasm. It's not exactly uncommon to release unpleasant things at the end of a week when people's minds are on an upcoming holiday.

(Moreover, to at least pretend that this isn't what they're doing, the report would necessarily have to be released on a day that isn't an official holiday.)

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 17, 2022, 11:16:55 PM


Quote from: CtrlAltDel on April 17, 2022, 11:12:32 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 17, 2022, 10:22:45 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on April 17, 2022, 07:08:11 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 15, 2022, 08:42:41 PM
Final design: https://www.localsyr.com/news/future-of-81/highlights-of-the-i-81-viaduct-project-final-environmental-impact-statement/

Officially released on Good Friday? Is there something they're trying to hide?
Right.  The thing was distributed online and hard copies of the thousands of pages distributed to libraries and available for reading at DOT's Regional office.

And, because it was done on a holiday not observed by the State, NYSDOT is trying to hide something.

Puh-leeeeeze.

It's a legit question that frankly doesn't warrant your derisive sarcasm. It's not exactly uncommon to release unpleasant things on days when people's minds are on an upcoming holiday.

You specifically mentioned hiding.  If anything, your question wasn't legit because of your bias -- I think you wanted it to be something nefarious and wanted that notion confirmed.  So, you didn't take any initiative to look beyond that bias and see the quite ample evidence that NYSDOT wasn't trying to hide anything.

I mean, NYSDOT held a press conference, for crying out loud.  Someone hiding something doesn't typically announce it on all the news stations...

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: CtrlAltDel on April 17, 2022, 11:20:39 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 17, 2022, 11:16:55 PM
So, you didn't take any initiative to look beyond that bias

Other than asking my question on a message board full of people who pay attention to such things, no.

Past that, this seems to be something that pushes your berserk button, and so, to spare the throbbing vein in your forehead, I will bow out.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on April 17, 2022, 11:52:50 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on April 17, 2022, 11:20:39 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 17, 2022, 11:16:55 PM
So, you didn't take any initiative to look beyond that bias

Other than asking my question on a message board full of people who pay attention to such things, no.

Past that, this seems to be something that pushes your berserk button, and so, to spare the throbbing vein in your forehead, I will bow out.


Please do.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 18, 2022, 08:41:28 AM
I don't think there's anything awry here - but it's obviously not good news for anyone that wanted the project to happen, while not generating much positive interest to anyone else. So it makes sense and isn't the least bit surprising that it would be a Friday news dump.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 18, 2022, 08:48:41 AM
Quote from: webny99 on April 18, 2022, 08:41:28 AM
I don't think there's anything awry here - but it's obviously not good news for anyone that wanted the project to happen, while not generating much positive interest to anyone else. So it makes sense and isn't the least bit surprising that it would be a Friday news dump.
How is it bad news for someone who wanted the project to happen?  The FEIS means the project is moving forward.

What'll hold it up now are the expected lawsuits (e.g., DestinyUSA).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 18, 2022, 08:56:36 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 18, 2022, 08:48:41 AM
Quote from: webny99 on April 18, 2022, 08:41:28 AM
I don't think there's anything awry here - but it's obviously not good news for anyone that wanted the project to happen, while not generating much positive interest to anyone else. So it makes sense and isn't the least bit surprising that it would be a Friday news dump.
How is it bad news for someone who wanted the project to happen?  The FEIS means the project is moving forward.

What'll hold it up now are the expected lawsuits (e.g., DestinyUSA).

Wow, I goofed badly. I didn't read back far enough and I thought this was the discussion about US 219 from another thread. Scratch my comment, but hopefully it makes more sense in that light!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 18, 2022, 09:09:08 AM
Quote from: webny99 on April 18, 2022, 08:56:36 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 18, 2022, 08:48:41 AM
Quote from: webny99 on April 18, 2022, 08:41:28 AM
I don't think there's anything awry here - but it's obviously not good news for anyone that wanted the project to happen, while not generating much positive interest to anyone else. So it makes sense and isn't the least bit surprising that it would be a Friday news dump.
How is it bad news for someone who wanted the project to happen?  The FEIS means the project is moving forward.

What'll hold it up now are the expected lawsuits (e.g., DestinyUSA).

Wow, I goofed badly. I didn't read back far enough and I thought this was the discussion about US 219 from another thread. Scratch my comment, but hopefully it makes more sense in that light!
Heh.  That does make more sense now.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on April 18, 2022, 04:55:36 PM
Any updates on when Interstate 481 will become the "relocated" Interstate 81? The sooner that happens, the sooner the entire Interstate 81 corridor gets mileage-based exits.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 18, 2022, 05:31:08 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 18, 2022, 04:55:36 PM
Any updates on when Interstate 481 will become the "relocated" Interstate 81? The sooner that happens, the sooner the entire Interstate 81 corridor gets mileage-based exits.
You've got a while for that to happen.  Viaduct's not coming down for a few years.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on April 18, 2022, 05:36:29 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 18, 2022, 05:31:08 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 18, 2022, 04:55:36 PM
Any updates on when Interstate 481 will become the "relocated" Interstate 81? The sooner that happens, the sooner the entire Interstate 81 corridor gets mileage-based exits.
You've got a while for that to happen.  Viaduct's not coming down for a few years.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think all the I-481 improvements and I-81 interchange(s) will have to be done before the switch happens.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 18, 2022, 05:45:28 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 18, 2022, 05:36:29 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 18, 2022, 05:31:08 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 18, 2022, 04:55:36 PM
Any updates on when Interstate 481 will become the "relocated" Interstate 81? The sooner that happens, the sooner the entire Interstate 81 corridor gets mileage-based exits.
You've got a while for that to happen.  Viaduct's not coming down for a few years.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think all the I-481 improvements and I-81 interchange(s) will have to be done before the switch happens.
This is true.  The schedule is optimistic.

SMTC Planning Committee vote to add the I-81 individual projects to the TIP/STIP is tomorrow.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 20, 2022, 12:02:47 AM
I-81 Viaduct Project TIP amendments for Phase 1 contracts passed SMTC Planning Committee without any issues today.  Vote was unanimous in favor.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on April 29, 2022, 11:35:11 AM
Vote to add Phase 1 (five contracts totally nearly $1 billion) of the I-81 Viaduct Project to LRTP and TIP was passed in SMTC's Policy Committee today, overcoming one nay vote in either case, both coming from Jim Rowley, an Onondaga County Legislator.

NYSDOT is now free to authorize the funding as federal project development and design requirements are met.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: abqtraveler on May 11, 2022, 04:33:23 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 29, 2022, 11:35:11 AM
Vote to add Phase 1 (five contracts totally nearly $1 billion) of the I-81 Viaduct Project to LRTP and TIP was passed in SMTC's Policy Committee today, overcoming one nay vote in either case, both coming from Jim Rowley, an Onondaga County Legislator.

NYSDOT is now free to authorize the funding as federal project development and design requirements are met.
When are they planning to break ground on the project?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: davewiecking on May 11, 2022, 06:32:16 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on May 11, 2022, 04:33:23 PM
When are they planning to break ground on the project?

After the contracts are awarded. https://www.syracuse.com/state/2022/04/i-81-project-timeline-when-construction-starts-and-ends.html
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Michael on May 20, 2022, 08:25:22 PM
I was just looking at the NYSDOT Projects page, and I noticed that the I-81 viaduct replacement is now listed (https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/pls/portal/MEXIS_APP.DYN_PROJECT_DETAILS.show?p_arg_names=p_pin&p_arg_values=350196).

In case the link ends up dying, here's the text:

Quote
I-81 VIADUCT - BL 81, OSWEGO BLVD, PEARL STREET
Project ID No. 350196

Description

Pavement: Reconstruction, Concrete

I-81 VIADUCT - BL 81, OSWEGO BLVD, PEARL STREET: 1 NEW BRIDGE, 2 BRIDGE REPLACEMENTS (BINS 1031570, 1050922), 13 BRIDGES REMOVED (BINS 1050800, 1050010, 1053882, 1053881, 105095A, 105100A, 1053870, 1053860, 1064590, 1051063, 105384A, 1053840, 2208620.

Project Overview

Project Status

  • The current status of the project is Future Development.
  • The Bid Opening is expected to be in Winter 2024/2025.
  • Construction is expected to begin in Spring 2025.
  • Construction is expected to be completed in .

Cost of the Project
The project cost is approximately $289,300,000.

This project receives funding from the following sources:
Federal: Yes
State : Yes
Local : No

Note that there isn't a D-number assigned yet.  I find it interesting that the project description mentions "BL 81" and also doesn't have an estimated completion date.  I also looked for listings for the other parts of the project, but I didn't see anything.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 20, 2022, 08:59:02 PM
Quote from: Michael on May 20, 2022, 08:25:22 PM
I was just looking at the NYSDOT Projects page, and I noticed that the I-81 viaduct replacement is now listed (https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/pls/portal/MEXIS_APP.DYN_PROJECT_DETAILS.show?p_arg_names=p_pin&p_arg_values=350196).

In case the link ends up dying, here's the text:

Quote
I-81 VIADUCT - BL 81, OSWEGO BLVD, PEARL STREET
Project ID No. 350196

Description

Pavement: Reconstruction, Concrete

I-81 VIADUCT - BL 81, OSWEGO BLVD, PEARL STREET: 1 NEW BRIDGE, 2 BRIDGE REPLACEMENTS (BINS 1031570, 1050922), 13 BRIDGES REMOVED (BINS 1050800, 1050010, 1053882, 1053881, 105095A, 105100A, 1053870, 1053860, 1064590, 1051063, 105384A, 1053840, 2208620.

Project Overview

Project Status

  • The current status of the project is Future Development.
  • The Bid Opening is expected to be in Winter 2024/2025.
  • Construction is expected to begin in Spring 2025.
  • Construction is expected to be completed in .

Cost of the Project
The project cost is approximately $289,300,000.

This project receives funding from the following sources:
Federal: Yes
State : Yes
Local : No

Note that there isn't a D-number assigned yet.  I find it interesting that the project description mentions "BL 81" and also doesn't have an estimated completion date.  I also looked for listings for the other parts of the project, but I didn't see anything.
Only Phase 1 was approved for funding and Record of Decision has not been achieved yet.

350196 is also only one of a group of PINs that make up the project.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on May 21, 2022, 05:20:06 PM
^ That listing doesn't look like what has been previously been reported as phase 1 (I-481/I-81 north interchange, most of the I-481 improvements).  It looks like the viaduct tear-down.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on May 21, 2022, 05:47:17 PM
Shouldn't all improvements to I-481 including necessary widenings and north / south interchange reconfigurations be fully complete before any construction begins on demolition of the viaduct?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on May 21, 2022, 07:16:36 PM
Wonder if the 481 improvements are a rouse.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 21, 2022, 08:38:00 PM
Ugh.  You people...

Phase 1 is approved for funding, which is all the I-481 improvements plus a few others here and there.  And, of course they'll be done before the viaduct comes down.

So, of course 350196 doesn't have a D-number yet, since it's part of Phase 2.

When I'm back in the office, I'll post the PINs here.

And the statement that the I-481 is just a ruse has to be one of the silliest comments I have seen on the forum...Alanland aside.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on May 22, 2022, 12:03:25 AM
Quote from: Rothman on May 21, 2022, 08:38:00 PM
Ugh.  You people...

Phase 1 is approved for funding, which is all the I-481 improvements plus a few others here and there.  And, of course they'll be done before the viaduct comes down.

So, of course 350196 doesn't have a D-number yet, since it's part of Phase 2.

When I'm back in the office, I'll post the PINs here.

And the statement that the I-481 is just a ruse has to be one of the silliest comments I have seen on the forum...Alanland aside.

he said a rouse, not a ruse. some people are turned on by roads
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 22, 2022, 03:40:15 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 21, 2022, 08:38:00 PM
Ugh.  You people...

Phase 1 is approved for funding, which is all the I-481 improvements plus a few others here and there.  And, of course they'll be done before the viaduct comes down.

So, of course 350196 doesn't have a D-number yet, since it's part of Phase 2.

When I'm back in the office, I'll post the PINs here.

And the statement that the I-481 is just a ruse has to be one of the silliest comments I have seen on the forum...Alanland aside.
Just looked through the posted list of R3 projects.  I don't see anything that would correspond to Phase 1. I could definitely miss them, though, as the search feature works... well, good enough for the government job.  For example "I-81 VIADUCT - BL 81,... " can be found using "viaduct" or "BL 81" keywords, but not using "I-81"
I can imagine officially posting viaduct removal as a political thing; however, I don't see "bait and switch" with I-481 I improvements limited to new shields as something totally impossible. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 22, 2022, 03:55:35 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 22, 2022, 03:40:15 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 21, 2022, 08:38:00 PM
Ugh.  You people...

Phase 1 is approved for funding, which is all the I-481 improvements plus a few others here and there.  And, of course they'll be done before the viaduct comes down.

So, of course 350196 doesn't have a D-number yet, since it's part of Phase 2.

When I'm back in the office, I'll post the PINs here.

And the statement that the I-481 is just a ruse has to be one of the silliest comments I have seen on the forum...Alanland aside.
Just looked through the posted list of R3 projects.  I don't see anything that would correspond to Phase 1. I could definitely miss them, though, as the search feature works... well, good enough for the government job.  For example "I-81 VIADUCT - BL 81,... " can be found using "viaduct" or "BL 81" keywords, but not using "I-81"
I can imagine officially posting viaduct removal as a political thing; however, I don't see "bait and switch" with I-481 I improvements limited to new shields as something totally impossible.
Pfft.  Like I said, I'll post the PINs tomorrow, little impatient one.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on May 23, 2022, 01:39:36 PM
Quote from: Alps on May 22, 2022, 12:03:25 AM
Quote from: Rothman on May 21, 2022, 08:38:00 PM
Ugh.  You people...

Phase 1 is approved for funding, which is all the I-481 improvements plus a few others here and there.  And, of course they'll be done before the viaduct comes down.

So, of course 350196 doesn't have a D-number yet, since it's part of Phase 2.

When I'm back in the office, I'll post the PINs here.

And the statement that the I-481 is just a ruse has to be one of the silliest comments I have seen on the forum...Alanland aside.

he said a rouse, not a ruse. some people are turned on by roads

You don't believe Armour did a typo?  You don't believe (s)he meant "ruse"?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 02:18:13 PM
Like I said, only Phase 1 was approved for funding so far.  Phase 1 consists of the following projects, which will be posted to the NYSDOT site after the tedium of the actual programming is worked out now that they've been added to the TIP/STIP.  All these PINs and information were presented to the public through the MPO process and costs are from the approved amended projects, which are found on SMTC's website:

350190: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 North Of I-690, $321.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes northern I-81/I-481 interchange)
350191: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 South of I-690, $243.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes southern I-81/I-481 interchange)
350192: BL-81 Northern Section, Phase 1, $78.5m to have construction authorized next FFY.  Essentially bridge work along current I-81.
350193: I-690 over Crouse Ave and Irving Ave, $163m for bridge work along I-690.  Construction to be authorized next FFY.
350194: Business Loop 81 Southern Section, Phase 1, $140m.  Construction to be authorized next FFY.  Bridge/ramp work along current I-81.

Phase 2 will consist of rebuilding the I-690/West St interchange and removing the viaduct and some remaining bridge work (PINs 350195 to 350197).  Looking a couple of years out for construction for that.  We'll see when they will be added to the TIP/STIP.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 23, 2022, 02:30:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 02:18:13 PM
Like I said, only Phase 1 was approved for funding so far.  Phase 1 consists of the following projects, which will be posted to the NYSDOT site after the tedium of the actual programming is worked out now that they've been added to the TIP/STIP.  All these PINs and information were presented to the public through the MPO process and costs are from the approved amended projects, which are found on SMTC's website:

350190: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 North Of I-690, $321.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes northern I-81/I-481 interchange)
350191: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 South of I-690, $243.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes southern I-81/I-481 interchange)
350192: BL-81 Northern Section, Phase 1, $78.5m to have construction authorized next FFY.  Essentially bridge work along current I-81.
350193: I-690 over Crouse Ave and Irving Ave, $163m for bridge work along I-690.  Construction to be authorized next FFY.
350194: Business Loop 81 Southern Section, Phase 1, $140m.  Construction to be authorized next FFY.  Bridge/ramp work along current I-81.

Phase 2 will consist of rebuilding the I-690/West St interchange and removing the viaduct and some remaining bridge work (PINs 350195 to 350197).  Looking a couple of years out for construction for that.  We'll see when they will be added to the TIP/STIP.

(personal opinion emphasized)

None of these PINs are present on https://www.dot.ny.gov/projects
That is unlike  350196 - just 2 steps further down the numerical list and few years further down the line

So either 350196 is pushed for presentation due to political reasons, or bait-and-switch is actually more plausible than you may think.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 02:36:04 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 23, 2022, 02:30:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 02:18:13 PM
Like I said, only Phase 1 was approved for funding so far.  Phase 1 consists of the following projects, which will be posted to the NYSDOT site after the tedium of the actual programming is worked out now that they've been added to the TIP/STIP.  All these PINs and information were presented to the public through the MPO process and costs are from the approved amended projects, which are found on SMTC's website:

350190: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 North Of I-690, $321.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes northern I-81/I-481 interchange)
350191: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 South of I-690, $243.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes southern I-81/I-481 interchange)
350192: BL-81 Northern Section, Phase 1, $78.5m to have construction authorized next FFY.  Essentially bridge work along current I-81.
350193: I-690 over Crouse Ave and Irving Ave, $163m for bridge work along I-690.  Construction to be authorized next FFY.
350194: Business Loop 81 Southern Section, Phase 1, $140m.  Construction to be authorized next FFY.  Bridge/ramp work along current I-81.

Phase 2 will consist of rebuilding the I-690/West St interchange and removing the viaduct and some remaining bridge work (PINs 350195 to 350197).  Looking a couple of years out for construction for that.  We'll see when they will be added to the TIP/STIP.

(personal opinion emphasized)

None of these PINs are present on https://www.dot.ny.gov/projects
That is unlike  350196 - just 2 steps further down the numerical list and few years further down the line

So either 350196 is pushed for presentation due to political reasons, or bait-and-switch is actually more plausible than you may think.
Perhaps you should read my post again.

You conspiracy theorists really do think government is more organized than it is.

My bet is 350196 is up there by mistake.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on May 23, 2022, 02:44:08 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 02:36:04 PM
You conspiracy theorists really do think government is more organized than it is.

Having worked for government both directly and as a contractor, I strongly agree with this.

(Personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 23, 2022, 03:11:43 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 02:36:04 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 23, 2022, 02:30:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 02:18:13 PM
Like I said, only Phase 1 was approved for funding so far.  Phase 1 consists of the following projects, which will be posted to the NYSDOT site after the tedium of the actual programming is worked out now that they've been added to the TIP/STIP.  All these PINs and information were presented to the public through the MPO process and costs are from the approved amended projects, which are found on SMTC's website:

350190: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 North Of I-690, $321.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes northern I-81/I-481 interchange)
350191: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 South of I-690, $243.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes southern I-81/I-481 interchange)
350192: BL-81 Northern Section, Phase 1, $78.5m to have construction authorized next FFY.  Essentially bridge work along current I-81.
350193: I-690 over Crouse Ave and Irving Ave, $163m for bridge work along I-690.  Construction to be authorized next FFY.
350194: Business Loop 81 Southern Section, Phase 1, $140m.  Construction to be authorized next FFY.  Bridge/ramp work along current I-81.

Phase 2 will consist of rebuilding the I-690/West St interchange and removing the viaduct and some remaining bridge work (PINs 350195 to 350197).  Looking a couple of years out for construction for that.  We'll see when they will be added to the TIP/STIP.

(personal opinion emphasized)

None of these PINs are present on https://www.dot.ny.gov/projects
That is unlike  350196 - just 2 steps further down the numerical list and few years further down the line

So either 350196 is pushed for presentation due to political reasons, or bait-and-switch is actually more plausible than you may think.
Perhaps you should read my post again.

You conspiracy theorists really do think government is more organized than it is.

My bet is 350196 is up there by mistake.

Actually my expectation is that someone (lets just say she is running for the governor) wants to show something to urbanist crowd. This is more benign than conspiracy, but maybe more likely than posting a random politically sensitive project.

The other issue is... Did someone in DOT asked themselves what is going to happen if project is not fully funded, but viaduct is already past the end of life? With prices doing what they do, this seems plausible... 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 03:20:31 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 23, 2022, 03:11:43 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 02:36:04 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 23, 2022, 02:30:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 02:18:13 PM
Like I said, only Phase 1 was approved for funding so far.  Phase 1 consists of the following projects, which will be posted to the NYSDOT site after the tedium of the actual programming is worked out now that they've been added to the TIP/STIP.  All these PINs and information were presented to the public through the MPO process and costs are from the approved amended projects, which are found on SMTC's website:

350190: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 North Of I-690, $321.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes northern I-81/I-481 interchange)
350191: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 South of I-690, $243.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes southern I-81/I-481 interchange)
350192: BL-81 Northern Section, Phase 1, $78.5m to have construction authorized next FFY.  Essentially bridge work along current I-81.
350193: I-690 over Crouse Ave and Irving Ave, $163m for bridge work along I-690.  Construction to be authorized next FFY.
350194: Business Loop 81 Southern Section, Phase 1, $140m.  Construction to be authorized next FFY.  Bridge/ramp work along current I-81.

Phase 2 will consist of rebuilding the I-690/West St interchange and removing the viaduct and some remaining bridge work (PINs 350195 to 350197).  Looking a couple of years out for construction for that.  We'll see when they will be added to the TIP/STIP.

(personal opinion emphasized)

None of these PINs are present on https://www.dot.ny.gov/projects
That is unlike  350196 - just 2 steps further down the numerical list and few years further down the line

So either 350196 is pushed for presentation due to political reasons, or bait-and-switch is actually more plausible than you may think.
Perhaps you should read my post again.

You conspiracy theorists really do think government is more organized than it is.

My bet is 350196 is up there by mistake.

Actually my expectation is that someone (lets just say she is running for the governor) wants to show something to urbanist crowd. This is more benign than conspiracy, but maybe more likely than posting a random politically sensitive project.

The other issue is... Did someone in DOT asked themselves what is going to happen if project is not fully funded, but viaduct is already past the end of life? With prices doing what they do, this seems plausible...
Pfft.  The urbanist crowd is already satiated.  Although it is intriguing to think that MPO members could kill Phase 2, in my opinion, enough grease has been applied to ensure that it will be funded.

Just like it was presented to the public and MPOs and whoever else cared to pay attention, the community grid is the preferred alternative and we're coming up on ROD in a couple of weeks.

The grid is here; urbanists have been rejoicing...

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on May 23, 2022, 03:46:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 03:20:31 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 23, 2022, 03:11:43 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 02:36:04 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 23, 2022, 02:30:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 02:18:13 PM
Like I said, only Phase 1 was approved for funding so far.  Phase 1 consists of the following projects, which will be posted to the NYSDOT site after the tedium of the actual programming is worked out now that they've been added to the TIP/STIP.  All these PINs and information were presented to the public through the MPO process and costs are from the approved amended projects, which are found on SMTC's website:

350190: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 North Of I-690, $321.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes northern I-81/I-481 interchange)
350191: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 South of I-690, $243.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes southern I-81/I-481 interchange)
350192: BL-81 Northern Section, Phase 1, $78.5m to have construction authorized next FFY.  Essentially bridge work along current I-81.
350193: I-690 over Crouse Ave and Irving Ave, $163m for bridge work along I-690.  Construction to be authorized next FFY.
350194: Business Loop 81 Southern Section, Phase 1, $140m.  Construction to be authorized next FFY.  Bridge/ramp work along current I-81.

Phase 2 will consist of rebuilding the I-690/West St interchange and removing the viaduct and some remaining bridge work (PINs 350195 to 350197).  Looking a couple of years out for construction for that.  We'll see when they will be added to the TIP/STIP.

(personal opinion emphasized)

None of these PINs are present on https://www.dot.ny.gov/projects
That is unlike  350196 - just 2 steps further down the numerical list and few years further down the line

So either 350196 is pushed for presentation due to political reasons, or bait-and-switch is actually more plausible than you may think.
Perhaps you should read my post again.

You conspiracy theorists really do think government is more organized than it is.

My bet is 350196 is up there by mistake.

Actually my expectation is that someone (lets just say she is running for the governor) wants to show something to urbanist crowd. This is more benign than conspiracy, but maybe more likely than posting a random politically sensitive project.

The other issue is... Did someone in DOT asked themselves what is going to happen if project is not fully funded, but viaduct is already past the end of life? With prices doing what they do, this seems plausible...
Pfft.  The urbanist crowd is already satiated.  Although it is intriguing to think that MPO members could kill Phase 2, in my opinion, enough grease has been applied to ensure that it will be funded.

Just like it was presented to the public and MPOs and whoever else cared to pay attention, the community grid is the preferred alternative and we're coming up on ROD in a couple of weeks.

The grid is here; urbanists have been rejoicing...

(personal opinion emphasized)
Showing a candy to kids never hurts..
On a serious note - I was betting on viaduct standing until it collapses. Grid is expensive, prices go up,  and demolition is now explicitly scheduled for after the next presidential cycle....
I wouldn't be surprised if feet are dragged on phase 1, and phase 2 starts as planned -  possibly as an unscheduled rapid demolition.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 31, 2022, 10:37:36 PM
It is official: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/i-81-plan-reaches-final-destination-officials-issue-final-stamp-of-approval-for-grid/ar-AAXVTJC?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a3ab0b79de3c46d8a60578f8c9736887.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 31, 2022, 10:38:35 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 31, 2022, 10:37:36 PM
It is official: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/i-81-plan-reaches-final-destination-officials-issue-final-stamp-of-approval-for-grid/ar-AAXVTJC?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a3ab0b79de3c46d8a60578f8c9736887.
Essentially, ROD is design approval.  On to final design...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: abqtraveler on May 31, 2022, 11:22:39 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 31, 2022, 10:38:35 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 31, 2022, 10:37:36 PM
It is official: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/i-81-plan-reaches-final-destination-officials-issue-final-stamp-of-approval-for-grid/ar-AAXVTJC?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a3ab0b79de3c46d8a60578f8c9736887.
Essentially, ROD is design approval.  On to final design...
Not exactly. The ROD signifies the approved alternative for the proposed action, which in this case, is to reroute I-81 along I-481 and convert the existing I-81 freeway inside I-481 to a boulevard, to be designated Business Loop 81. With the FEIS published and the ROD signed, now NYSDOT can move to final design.

Assuming NYSDOT is taking the Design-Bid-Build approach, the next step would be to flesh out the exact design details for each of the project elements in order to create a complete set of plans, drawings, and specifications needed for construction.

Now if NYSDOT is going the Design-Build route, then they may already have a preliminary set of plans, drawings, and specifications (say...35% design, or maybe up to 65%), but then the Design-Build contractor would then finalize the design and, once their design submittal is approved by NYSDOT, begin construction.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on May 31, 2022, 11:42:22 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on May 31, 2022, 11:22:39 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 31, 2022, 10:38:35 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 31, 2022, 10:37:36 PM
It is official: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/i-81-plan-reaches-final-destination-officials-issue-final-stamp-of-approval-for-grid/ar-AAXVTJC?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a3ab0b79de3c46d8a60578f8c9736887.
Essentially, ROD is design approval.  On to final design...
Not exactly. The ROD signifies the approved alternative for the proposed action, which in this case, is to reroute I-81 along I-481 and convert the existing I-81 freeway inside I-481 to a boulevard, to be designated Business Loop 81. With the FEIS published and the ROD signed, now NYSDOT can move to final design.


Heh.  You just described design approval. It isn't called design approval, but ROD has definitely been treated by NYSDOT as a corollary to design approval on all design-build projects.  Like you outlined, this ROD pertains to all phases of the project and not only Phase 1.

Quote

Assuming NYSDOT is taking the Design-Bid-Build approach, the next step would be to flesh out the exact design details for each of the project elements in order to create a complete set of plans, drawings, and specifications needed for construction.

Now if NYSDOT is going the Design-Build route, then they may already have a preliminary set of plans, drawings, and specifications (say...35% design, or maybe up to 65%), but then the Design-Build contractor would then finalize the design and, once their design submittal is approved by NYSDOT, begin construction.

Please read the thread again and review the details I posted about how the construction contracts are laid out.  That said, some are design-build and some are not.  I can update the post when I'm back in the office.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: abqtraveler on June 01, 2022, 09:24:40 AM
Quote from: Rothman on May 31, 2022, 11:42:22 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on May 31, 2022, 11:22:39 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 31, 2022, 10:38:35 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 31, 2022, 10:37:36 PM
It is official: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/i-81-plan-reaches-final-destination-officials-issue-final-stamp-of-approval-for-grid/ar-AAXVTJC?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a3ab0b79de3c46d8a60578f8c9736887.
Essentially, ROD is design approval.  On to final design...
Not exactly. The ROD signifies the approved alternative for the proposed action, which in this case, is to reroute I-81 along I-481 and convert the existing I-81 freeway inside I-481 to a boulevard, to be designated Business Loop 81. With the FEIS published and the ROD signed, now NYSDOT can move to final design.


Heh.  You just described design approval. It isn't called design approval, but ROD has definitely been treated by NYSDOT as a corollary to design approval on all design-build projects.  Like you outlined, this ROD pertains to all phases of the project and not only Phase 1.

Quote

Assuming NYSDOT is taking the Design-Bid-Build approach, the next step would be to flesh out the exact design details for each of the project elements in order to create a complete set of plans, drawings, and specifications needed for construction.

Now if NYSDOT is going the Design-Build route, then they may already have a preliminary set of plans, drawings, and specifications (say...35% design, or maybe up to 65%), but then the Design-Build contractor would then finalize the design and, once their design submittal is approved by NYSDOT, begin construction.

Please read the thread again and review the details I posted about how the construction contracts are laid out.  That said, some are design-build and some are not.  I can update the post when I'm back in the office.
Sounds like a difference of semantics. So "design approval" really means approval to start design, not so much the "design has been approved."
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:24:22 AM


Quote from: abqtraveler on June 01, 2022, 09:24:40 AM
Quote from: Rothman on May 31, 2022, 11:42:22 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on May 31, 2022, 11:22:39 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 31, 2022, 10:38:35 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 31, 2022, 10:37:36 PM
It is official: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/i-81-plan-reaches-final-destination-officials-issue-final-stamp-of-approval-for-grid/ar-AAXVTJC?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a3ab0b79de3c46d8a60578f8c9736887.
Essentially, ROD is design approval.  On to final design...
Not exactly. The ROD signifies the approved alternative for the proposed action, which in this case, is to reroute I-81 along I-481 and convert the existing I-81 freeway inside I-481 to a boulevard, to be designated Business Loop 81. With the FEIS published and the ROD signed, now NYSDOT can move to final design.


Heh.  You just described design approval. It isn't called design approval, but ROD has definitely been treated by NYSDOT as a corollary to design approval on all design-build projects.  Like you outlined, this ROD pertains to all phases of the project and not only Phase 1.

Quote

Assuming NYSDOT is taking the Design-Bid-Build approach, the next step would be to flesh out the exact design details for each of the project elements in order to create a complete set of plans, drawings, and specifications needed for construction.

Now if NYSDOT is going the Design-Build route, then they may already have a preliminary set of plans, drawings, and specifications (say...35% design, or maybe up to 65%), but then the Design-Build contractor would then finalize the design and, once their design submittal is approved by NYSDOT, begin construction.

Please read the thread again and review the details I posted about how the construction contracts are laid out.  That said, some are design-build and some are not.  I can update the post when I'm back in the office.
Sounds like a difference of semantics. So "design approval" really means approval to start design, not so much the "design has been approved."

"Design approval" is a professional term meaning the completion of project development/preliminary design (engineering phases I-IV, final design being phases V-VI).  It is defined as part of the federal-aid/NEPA process.  You can't authorize federal funds without a design approval date, either projected before your design report is done (not to be confused with PS&E), or as an actual after PE is completed.

So, it isn't a matter of semantics, but using the official terminology of federal-aid project development and design.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on June 01, 2022, 10:49:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:24:22 AM
So, it isn't a matter of semantics, but using the official terminology of federal-aid project development and design.
Frankly speaking, official/traditional/established terminology is often confusing to the outsiders. So such clarifications are really appreciated by those not in the field.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:57:37 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 01, 2022, 10:49:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:24:22 AM
So, it isn't a matter of semantics, but using the official terminology of federal-aid project development and design.
Frankly speaking, official/traditional/established terminology is often confusing to the outsiders. So such clarifications are really appreciated by those not in the field.
Please read the thread and see how this last discussion started.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on June 01, 2022, 11:37:10 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:57:37 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 01, 2022, 10:49:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:24:22 AM
So, it isn't a matter of semantics, but using the official terminology of federal-aid project development and design.
Frankly speaking, official/traditional/established terminology is often confusing to the outsiders. So such clarifications are really appreciated by those not in the field.
Please read the thread and see how this last discussion started.

Sure I did. I am just trying to politely point out that semantics confusion over terminology is unfortunately pretty common, and some wording which is crystal clear for you, is not for those outside of DOT. It may be irritating, but that is how things work, unfortunately...
Feel free to return the favor when we discuss, for example, hydrogen steel embrittlement in Daddy's bridge bolts...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 11:58:32 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 01, 2022, 11:37:10 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:57:37 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 01, 2022, 10:49:54 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:24:22 AM
So, it isn't a matter of semantics, but using the official terminology of federal-aid project development and design.
Frankly speaking, official/traditional/established terminology is often confusing to the outsiders. So such clarifications are really appreciated by those not in the field.
Please read the thread and see how this last discussion started.

Sure I did. I am just trying to politely point out that semantics confusion over terminology is unfortunately pretty common, and some wording which is crystal clear for you, is not for those outside of DOT. It may be irritating, but that is how things work, unfortunately...
Feel free to return the favor when we discuss, for example, hydrogen steel embrittlement in Daddy's bridge bolts...

Please read again.  All I did was mention design approval and the "outsider" decided to correct the "insider."

The issue is not my using specific terminology, but the outsider insisting to the insider that they knew better than the insider.

So, the real solution here is for outsiders to ask for clarification, rather than jumping into our usual "I'm right and you're not" contest...especially given the experience of the insider...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: abqtraveler on June 01, 2022, 03:02:03 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:24:22 AM

"Design approval" is a professional term meaning the completion of project development/preliminary design (engineering phases I-IV, final design being phases V-VI).  It is defined as part of the federal-aid/NEPA process.  You can't authorize federal funds without a design approval date, either projected before your design report is done (not to be confused with PS&E), or as an actual after PE is completed.

So, it isn't a matter of semantics, but using the official terminology of federal-aid project development and design.

Interesting. I thought you couldn't even start design work until the NEPA process was completed, but from your explanation, it looks as if there has to be a certain level of design completed to enable proper analysis of the proposed alternatives presented as part of the EIS.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 05:30:55 PM


Quote from: abqtraveler on June 01, 2022, 03:02:03 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 01, 2022, 10:24:22 AM

"Design approval" is a professional term meaning the completion of project development/preliminary design (engineering phases I-IV, final design being phases V-VI).  It is defined as part of the federal-aid/NEPA process.  You can't authorize federal funds without a design approval date, either projected before your design report is done (not to be confused with PS&E), or as an actual after PE is completed.

So, it isn't a matter of semantics, but using the official terminology of federal-aid project development and design.

Interesting. I thought you couldn't even start design work until the NEPA process was completed, but from your explanation, it looks as if there has to be a certain level of design completed to enable proper analysis of the proposed alternatives presented as part of the EIS.

Yep, NEPA is done during preliminary design, as the project progresses towards design approval...unless changes are made during final design (after design approval, but before PS&E) that necessitate an update to the work...which causes the DOT's environmental group to get angry.

Not every project has a full EIS (90% or more of the projects out there do not).  I-81 obviously does, but even then, you have the FEIS just before ROD in I-81's case.

On a tangent, Right-of-Way Acquisition cannot be funded until design approval under federal rules.  Prep work -- ROW incidentials -- can be authorized from the get-go.  There have been some funky arrangements with ROW acq authorization with I-81 between NYSDOT and FHWA to facilitate the project...I'll have to remind myself what actually happened there before posting here.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on June 02, 2022, 11:58:28 AM
Quote from: Rothman on May 23, 2022, 02:18:13 PM
Like I said, only Phase 1 was approved for funding so far.  Phase 1 consists of the following projects, which will be posted to the NYSDOT site after the tedium of the actual programming is worked out now that they've been added to the TIP/STIP.  All these PINs and information were presented to the public through the MPO process and costs are from the approved amended projects, which are found on SMTC's website:

350190: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 North Of I-690, $321.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes northern I-81/I-481 interchange) -- D-B
350191: Convert I-481 to I-81, I-81 South of I-690, $243.35m to have construction authorized this FFY (includes southern I-81/I-481 interchange) -- D-B
350192: BL-81 Northern Section, Phase 1, $78.5m to have construction authorized next FFY.  Essentially bridge work along current I-81. -- D-B-B
350193: I-690 over Crouse Ave and Irving Ave, $163m for bridge work along I-690.  Construction to be authorized next FFY. -- D-B-B
350194: Business Loop 81 Southern Section, Phase 1, $140m.  Construction to be authorized next FFY.  Bridge/ramp work along current I-81. -- D-B-B

Phase 2 will consist of rebuilding the I-690/West St interchange and removing the viaduct and some remaining bridge work (PINs 350195 to 350197).  Looking a couple of years out for construction for that.  We'll see when they will be added to the TIP/STIP.

(personal opinion emphasized)

Edited my former post here with design-build (D-B) and design-bid-build (D-B-B) contract designations to the best of my knowledge.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 04, 2022, 09:03:10 PM
Well, a $100 billion dollar chip plant has been announced for the Syracuse area. Maybe this freeway turning into a boulevard coinciding with this insane economic development announcement will help Syracuse turn around. I'm sure the anti car crowd won't seize the moment to use a revitalization of Syracuse directly due to this project. Lol. Very impressive announcement though:

https://www.route-fifty.com/management/2022/10/chip-maker-commits-100b-us-manufacturing-site/378047/
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on October 04, 2022, 09:21:42 PM
Worth nothing that the article mentions the plant would be built in Clay, which means probably along or near NY 481.  Besides providing jobs for those who can commute up there, the plant really won't do much for Syracuse proper.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 04, 2022, 09:23:33 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 04, 2022, 09:03:10 PM
Well, a $100 billion dollar chip plant has been announced for the Syracuse area. Maybe this freeway turning into a boulevard coinciding with this insane economic development announcement will help Syracuse turn around. I'm sure the anti car crowd won't seize the moment to use a revitalization of Syracuse directly due to this project. Lol. Very impressive announcement though:

https://www.route-fifty.com/management/2022/10/chip-maker-commits-100b-us-manufacturing-site/378047/
That's north of the I-81/I-481 interchange.   The first I-81 contract's construction phase is authorized, with Contract 2's authorization coming a little later this year.  The I-81 project will not be changed because of this development, which has been in the works for years in one form or another.

What is far, far more interesting. is what may happen with the NY 31/I-81 interchange.  Might be upgraded to a SPUI or DDI sooner than anyone expected.

Of course, this is all dependent upon the deal sticking.  A lot of people in Syracuse's reaction to the article was, "We'll believe it when we see it."
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 04, 2022, 09:34:33 PM
^^^ I'm thinking this will more or less spawn development in Syracuse if built as proposed. That's a huge investment.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 04, 2022, 09:50:26 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 04, 2022, 09:34:33 PM
^^^ I'm thinking this will more or less spawn development in Syracuse if built as proposed. That's a huge investment.
It'll spawn development in the northern suburbs.

There are a lot of outstanding questions about the public funding mentioned in the article.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on October 04, 2022, 10:27:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 04, 2022, 09:23:33 PM
A lot of people in Syracuse's reaction to the article was, "We'll believe it when we see it."

DestinyUSA being no small part of the reason for local skepticism.  We've seen this sort of thing before.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on October 05, 2022, 10:25:48 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 04, 2022, 10:27:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 04, 2022, 09:23:33 PM
A lot of people in Syracuse's reaction to the article was, "We'll believe it when we see it."

DestinyUSA being no small part of the reason for local skepticism.  We've seen this sort of thing before.

Why?  Has that mall been/become a bust?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on October 05, 2022, 07:45:52 PM
Quote from: ixnay on October 05, 2022, 10:25:48 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 04, 2022, 10:27:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 04, 2022, 09:23:33 PM
A lot of people in Syracuse's reaction to the article was, "We'll believe it when we see it."

DestinyUSA being no small part of the reason for local skepticism.  We've seen this sort of thing before.

Why?  Has that mall been/become a bust?

Opinions vary. It hasn't seen the level of success or influx of traffic that was anticipated, but it's not a complete bust either.

It's one of very few destinations that people from Rochester would consider day-tripping to Syracuse for, as it has a lot more family and entertainment options than anything here (WonderWorks, rope climbing course, indoor mini-golf, etc.). That's more than could be said of it before the expansion, but like many/most malls, covid was a big hit. It seemed to be on a slight rebound and plenty busy when I last visited earlier this year.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 05, 2022, 08:39:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 05, 2022, 07:45:52 PM
Quote from: ixnay on October 05, 2022, 10:25:48 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 04, 2022, 10:27:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 04, 2022, 09:23:33 PM
A lot of people in Syracuse's reaction to the article was, "We'll believe it when we see it."

DestinyUSA being no small part of the reason for local skepticism.  We've seen this sort of thing before.

Why?  Has that mall been/become a bust?

Opinions vary. It hasn't seen the level of success or influx of traffic that was anticipated, but it's not a complete bust either.

It's one of very few destinations that people from Rochester would consider day-tripping to Syracuse for, as it has a lot more family and entertainment options than anything here (WonderWorks, rope climbing course, indoor mini-golf, etc.). That's more than could be said of it before the expansion, but like many/most malls, covid was a big hit. It seemed to be on a slight rebound and plenty busy when I last visited earlier this year.
Pfft.  DestinyUSA is slowly dying.  There are a host of businesses that will lose their novelty in the near future and their inevitable closures will cause gaping holes in the location.  Remember that the owners are also swimming in debt that they aren't able to pay back.  The place is financially tenuous.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 06, 2022, 04:25:31 PM
Will construction on Interstate 81 and the "community grid" finally begin next year? The suspence is killing me!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: TonyTrafficLight on October 06, 2022, 04:31:18 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 04, 2022, 09:21:42 PM
Worth nothing that the article mentions the plant would be built in Clay, which means probably along or near NY 481.  Besides providing jobs for those who can commute up there, the plant really won't do much for Syracuse proper.

The place Micron is building in on Rt. 31 sort of in between Rt 481 & Rt 81. There will be good highway access at least.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 06, 2022, 05:03:05 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 06, 2022, 04:25:31 PM
Will construction on Interstate 81 and the "community grid" finally begin next year? The suspence is killing me!
Phase 1 is beginning and is authorized.  This is construction to upgrade I-481.  The actual work downtown won't start for a few years.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on October 06, 2022, 05:05:01 PM
Quote from: TonyTrafficLight on October 06, 2022, 04:31:18 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 04, 2022, 09:21:42 PM
Worth nothing that the article mentions the plant would be built in Clay, which means probably along or near NY 481.  Besides providing jobs for those who can commute up there, the plant really won't do much for Syracuse proper.

The place Micron is building in on Rt. 31 sort of in between Rt 481 & Rt 81. There will be good highway access at least.
We shall see.  It's yet to be revealed what improvements this will trigger.  Just sat in an SMTC meeting where officials were shrugging about what it means yet.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on October 06, 2022, 05:51:28 PM
Quote from: ixnay on October 05, 2022, 10:25:48 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 04, 2022, 10:27:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 04, 2022, 09:23:33 PM
A lot of people in Syracuse's reaction to the article was, "We'll believe it when we see it."

DestinyUSA being no small part of the reason for local skepticism.  We've seen this sort of thing before.

Why?  Has that mall been/become a bust?

"DestinyUSA" was intended to be a much larger development encompassing a good chunk of the land surrounding the mall (especially south and east), including biotech, housing, and hotels...some renditions indicated rerouting I-81 northeast of its current alignment to accommodate the development.

This was close to 20 years ago.  My wife was living/working in Syracuse (with me visiting whenever possible) at the time.  Only thing that happened was the mall expansion and renaming (it had previously been named Carousel Center).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on November 10, 2022, 04:26:14 PM
Ruh roh:

https://www.syracuse.com/news/2022/11/state-judge-orders-temporary-stop-to-i-81-rebuild-in-syracuse.html
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 10, 2022, 04:30:01 PM
Could the judge force the state to rebuild the highway or will this simply delay the project?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 10, 2022, 04:52:44 PM
I think it is too late to "save"  the elevated viaduct. The state has already chosen the "community grid"  option, and nothing will change that. While I disagree with getting rid of the viaduct personally (I would have preferred the viaduct be reconstructed to modern design standards), the verdict has already been given: existing Interstate 81 will be downgraded into Business 81, and Interstate 481 will be renumbered as mainline Interstate 81. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: MATraveler128 on November 10, 2022, 05:12:37 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 10, 2022, 04:30:01 PM
Could the judge force the state to rebuild the highway or will this simply delay the project?

I'm expecting the project to probably be delayed by at least a few months because of this. Maybe later next fall it will possibly be ready to start.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on November 10, 2022, 05:31:14 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on November 10, 2022, 05:12:37 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 10, 2022, 04:30:01 PM
Could the judge force the state to rebuild the highway or will this simply delay the project?

I'm expecting the project to probably be delayed by at least a few months because of this. Maybe later next fall it will possibly be ready to start.
hopefully in a few years things will start moving. Hopefully before old structure collapses.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: 74/171FAN on November 10, 2022, 05:31:45 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 10, 2022, 04:26:14 PM
Ruh roh:

https://www.syracuse.com/news/2022/11/state-judge-orders-temporary-stop-to-i-81-rebuild-in-syracuse.html

Yeah, I thought Hochul winning reelection was the end of any debate regarding this project.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: silverback1065 on November 10, 2022, 06:09:57 PM
that group's argument is b.s.  :-D they're just wasting time.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on November 10, 2022, 06:11:59 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on November 10, 2022, 05:31:45 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 10, 2022, 04:26:14 PM
Ruh roh:

https://www.syracuse.com/news/2022/11/state-judge-orders-temporary-stop-to-i-81-rebuild-in-syracuse.html

Yeah, I thought Hochul winning reelection was the end of any debate regarding this project.

Zeldin came surprisingly close by NY standards but I also thought that Hochul winning meant it would proceed, given her support of the project.

However there is a 180 day period when lawsuits can be filed and we are still in that window, so it's wait and see I guess.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on November 10, 2022, 06:16:56 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 10, 2022, 06:09:57 PM
that group's argument is b.s.  :-D they're just wasting time.

The article is light on details, but this part makes some sense, and is in line with concerns brought up earlier in this thread:

QuoteThe group argues that the state's plan would result in traffic delays and backups, "making the Community grid into Community Gridlock."

The group says forcing trucks to drive extra miles around the city or through local streets would negatively impact the environment.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on November 10, 2022, 06:21:44 PM
My bet is that the lawsuit will be found to have no merit in the end and the project will proceed.  Environmental analysis was performed, NEPA followed and public process followed.

I doubt this will make much of a difference in the construction schedule, especially since Phase 1 contracts have nothing directly to do with the viaduct, but getting I-481 ready to become I-81.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on November 10, 2022, 09:28:05 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 10, 2022, 06:16:56 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 10, 2022, 06:09:57 PM
that group's argument is b.s.  :-D they're just wasting time.

The article is light on details, but this part makes some sense, and is in line with concerns brought up earlier in this thread:

QuoteThe group argues that the state's plan would result in traffic delays and backups, "making the Community grid into Community Gridlock."

The group says forcing trucks to drive extra miles around the city or through local streets would negatively impact the environment.
Quote from: Rothman on November 10, 2022, 06:21:44 PM
My bet is that the lawsuit will be found to have no merit in the end and the project will proceed.  Environmental analysis was performed, NEPA followed and public process followed.

I doubt this will make much of a difference in the construction schedule, especially since Phase 1 contracts have nothing directly to do with the viaduct, but getting I-481 ready to become I-81.
Question is whether the environmental documents actually addressed the lawsuit concern or not - that will have to be looked into before deciding if it has merit
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on November 10, 2022, 11:06:02 PM
Quote from: Alps on November 10, 2022, 09:28:05 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 10, 2022, 06:16:56 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 10, 2022, 06:09:57 PM
that group's argument is b.s.  :-D they're just wasting time.

The article is light on details, but this part makes some sense, and is in line with concerns brought up earlier in this thread:

QuoteThe group argues that the state's plan would result in traffic delays and backups, "making the Community grid into Community Gridlock."

The group says forcing trucks to drive extra miles around the city or through local streets would negatively impact the environment.
Quote from: Rothman on November 10, 2022, 06:21:44 PM
My bet is that the lawsuit will be found to have no merit in the end and the project will proceed.  Environmental analysis was performed, NEPA followed and public process followed.

I doubt this will make much of a difference in the construction schedule, especially since Phase 1 contracts have nothing directly to do with the viaduct, but getting I-481 ready to become I-81.
Question is whether the environmental documents actually addressed the lawsuit concern or not - that will have to be looked into before deciding if it has merit
They did.  Simple as that.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on November 11, 2022, 12:16:36 AM
Quote from: Rothman on November 10, 2022, 11:06:02 PM
Quote from: Alps on November 10, 2022, 09:28:05 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 10, 2022, 06:16:56 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 10, 2022, 06:09:57 PM
that group's argument is b.s.  :-D they're just wasting time.

The article is light on details, but this part makes some sense, and is in line with concerns brought up earlier in this thread:

QuoteThe group argues that the state's plan would result in traffic delays and backups, "making the Community grid into Community Gridlock."

The group says forcing trucks to drive extra miles around the city or through local streets would negatively impact the environment.
Quote from: Rothman on November 10, 2022, 06:21:44 PM
My bet is that the lawsuit will be found to have no merit in the end and the project will proceed.  Environmental analysis was performed, NEPA followed and public process followed.

I doubt this will make much of a difference in the construction schedule, especially since Phase 1 contracts have nothing directly to do with the viaduct, but getting I-481 ready to become I-81.
Question is whether the environmental documents actually addressed the lawsuit concern or not - that will have to be looked into before deciding if it has merit
They did.  Simple as that.
Citation needed.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on November 11, 2022, 06:32:21 AM
Quote from: Alps on November 11, 2022, 12:16:36 AM
Quote from: Rothman on November 10, 2022, 11:06:02 PM
Quote from: Alps on November 10, 2022, 09:28:05 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 10, 2022, 06:16:56 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 10, 2022, 06:09:57 PM
that group's argument is b.s.  :-D they're just wasting time.

The article is light on details, but this part makes some sense, and is in line with concerns brought up earlier in this thread:

QuoteThe group argues that the state's plan would result in traffic delays and backups, "making the Community grid into Community Gridlock."

The group says forcing trucks to drive extra miles around the city or through local streets would negatively impact the environment.
Quote from: Rothman on November 10, 2022, 06:21:44 PM
My bet is that the lawsuit will be found to have no merit in the end and the project will proceed.  Environmental analysis was performed, NEPA followed and public process followed.

I doubt this will make much of a difference in the construction schedule, especially since Phase 1 contracts have nothing directly to do with the viaduct, but getting I-481 ready to become I-81.
Question is whether the environmental documents actually addressed the lawsuit concern or not - that will have to be looked into before deciding if it has merit
They did.  Simple as that.
Citation needed.
The FEIS. :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on November 12, 2022, 07:22:03 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 11, 2022, 06:32:21 AM
Quote from: Alps on November 11, 2022, 12:16:36 AM
Quote from: Rothman on November 10, 2022, 11:06:02 PM
Quote from: Alps on November 10, 2022, 09:28:05 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 10, 2022, 06:16:56 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on November 10, 2022, 06:09:57 PM
that group's argument is b.s.  :-D they're just wasting time.

The article is light on details, but this part makes some sense, and is in line with concerns brought up earlier in this thread:

QuoteThe group argues that the state's plan would result in traffic delays and backups, "making the Community grid into Community Gridlock."

The group says forcing trucks to drive extra miles around the city or through local streets would negatively impact the environment.
Quote from: Rothman on November 10, 2022, 06:21:44 PM
My bet is that the lawsuit will be found to have no merit in the end and the project will proceed.  Environmental analysis was performed, NEPA followed and public process followed.

I doubt this will make much of a difference in the construction schedule, especially since Phase 1 contracts have nothing directly to do with the viaduct, but getting I-481 ready to become I-81.
Question is whether the environmental documents actually addressed the lawsuit concern or not - that will have to be looked into before deciding if it has merit
They did.  Simple as that.
Citation needed.
The FEIS. :D
as long as the FEIS includes a study of truck diversions and the pain of increased miles compared to whatever else, fine. But you'd have to link me to it for me to vouch that.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 12, 2022, 07:46:59 PM
Not to mention the 100 billion dollar semi conductor plant seems like something worthy of being included when factoring future traffic growth.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: elsmere241 on November 12, 2022, 07:54:33 PM
This project is intriguing to me.  DelDOT should have done something like this with I-95 in Wilmington rather than rebuild it.  They are are at least going to put a deck with parkland at street level over a stretch of it - I hope.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on November 12, 2022, 08:13:07 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 12, 2022, 07:46:59 PM
Not to mention the 100 billion dollar semi conductor plant seems like something worthy of being included when factoring future traffic growth.
Pfft.  Given the location of the plant, north of the I-81/I-481 northern interchange, there is no expected impact to the idea of tearing down the viaduct.

Other ideas are being floated.  Hoping that the I-81/NY 31 reconfig is funded.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 17, 2022, 06:26:34 PM
Not sure if this was posted here but it looks like the case will be heard on January 12th:

QuoteThe case is scheduled to be heard Jan. 12, 2023, in the state Supreme Court in Onondaga County.

- https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/new-york-state-judge-halts-work-on-interstate-81-project-in-syracuse/58800
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadwaywiz95 on December 16, 2022, 08:55:59 AM
For this upcoming weekend's Webinar presentation, we'll be taking a look at the freeway system of central New York State and the Syracuse metropolitan area. We'll also be continuing our discussion from last week about "The Three R's" (Replace/Relocate/Remove) of urban freeway replacement; there will be an in-depth discussion (that will likely take up the majority of the show) about how Syracuse's "Community Grid" plan to remove the downtown segment of Interstate 81 came to be, this proposal's pros & cons, and how this controversial plan may or may not serve as a template for future urban planning movements across North America. Since we know this topic is a lightning rod of sorts within the roads/travel community, we'd also welcome your thoughtful comments & questions in the live chat during our discussion, that way we can make things a bit more interactive than we normally allow.

If you'd like to join us live, we'll get started on Saturday (12/17) at 6 PM ET. Regardless, the link to this show can be found below:

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on January 14, 2023, 04:40:08 PM


(https://jpnearl.com/upstatenyroads.com/aaroads/syracuse81.jpg)

I'm hoping someone with inside NYSDOT information will let us know that all these designs are for reference only and that someone will be bringing these signing plans into MUTCD standards.

Signing plans are here:

https://www.dot.ny.gov/main/business-center/designbuildproject56/repository/D900056%20-%20Part%206%20-%20RFP%20Plans_FINAL.pdf
https://www.dot.ny.gov/main/business-center/designbuildproject54/repository/D900054%20-%20Part%206%20-%20RFP%20Plans%20-%20FINAL%20-%2020220617.pdf

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 14, 2023, 06:30:27 PM
Feel free to contact NYSDOT's I-81 team with your concerns.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on January 14, 2023, 07:15:41 PM
I assume I-81 will be the next highway to receive mileage based exit signs?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on January 14, 2023, 08:02:31 PM
Quote from: seicer on January 14, 2023, 07:15:41 PM
I assume I-81 will be the next highway to receive mileage based exit signs?

Yes, the renumbering of all the interchanges on Interstate 81 in New York is part of the first one or two phases of the relocation of I-81 to existing I-481 in Syracuse. The relocation will modify mile markers north of current exit 29 by five miles as well.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2023, 09:49:11 PM
Also, Interstate 690 will get mileage-based exits as well. Will NY 690 get exit numbers as well? If so, then NY 690's terminus at NY 48/NY 631 should be mile 0, and the exit numbers should rise from there (mileage-based, of course). Finally, the $64,000 question: do they finally have a date when the Interstate 81-to-Business 81, and the Interstate 481-to-Interstate 81 conversions will occur?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on January 14, 2023, 09:52:14 PM
^ Let's get through construction first.  Things are just getting started.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 14, 2023, 11:15:00 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2023, 09:49:11 PM
Also, Interstate 690 will get mileage-based exits as well. Will NY 690 get exit numbers as well? If so, then NY 690's terminus at NY 48/NY 631 should be mile 0, and the exit numbers should rise from there (mileage-based, of course). Finally, the $64,000 question: do they finally have a date when the Interstate 81-to-Business 81, and the Interstate 481-to-Interstate 81 conversions will occur?
Not for a few years.  The interchanges at the north and south of I-481 have to be reconfigured first.  I'm home right now, but I believe the conversion will be in 2025 and Phase 2 starts in 2026 to update I-690 and tear down the viaduct given the current schedule.

(personal opinion expressed)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 15, 2023, 07:55:31 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2023, 09:49:11 PM
Also, Interstate 690 will get mileage-based exits as well. Will NY 690 get exit numbers as well? If so, then NY 690's terminus at NY 48/NY 631 should be mile 0, and the exit numbers should rise from there (mileage-based, of course). Finally, the $64,000 question: do they finally have a date when the Interstate 81-to-Business 81, and the Interstate 481-to-Interstate 81 conversions will occur?
The I-690 numbers shown do include NY 690's mileage, so I would hope so, but we'll see.  I haven't yet found any plans for what the exit numbers outside of the project area will be.

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on January 16, 2023, 12:23:27 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2023, 07:55:31 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2023, 09:49:11 PM
Also, Interstate 690 will get mileage-based exits as well. Will NY 690 get exit numbers as well? If so, then NY 690's terminus at NY 48/NY 631 should be mile 0, and the exit numbers should rise from there (mileage-based, of course). Finally, the $64,000 question: do they finally have a date when the Interstate 81-to-Business 81, and the Interstate 481-to-Interstate 81 conversions will occur?
The I-690 numbers shown do include NY 690's mileage, so I would hope so, but we'll see.  I haven't yet found any plans for what the exit numbers outside of the project area will be.

The current mile markers include NY 690 so they'll probably keep it that way.   When I-690 gets the new interchange numbers it'll be the second time they've been changed.

Now, if we could just get NYSDOT R3 to not start NY 5's expressway mile markers at zero at the interchange with NY 174, but that's a separate topic.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 16, 2023, 03:30:41 PM
Quote from: machias on January 16, 2023, 12:23:27 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2023, 07:55:31 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2023, 09:49:11 PM
Also, Interstate 690 will get mileage-based exits as well. Will NY 690 get exit numbers as well? If so, then NY 690's terminus at NY 48/NY 631 should be mile 0, and the exit numbers should rise from there (mileage-based, of course). Finally, the $64,000 question: do they finally have a date when the Interstate 81-to-Business 81, and the Interstate 481-to-Interstate 81 conversions will occur?
The I-690 numbers shown do include NY 690's mileage, so I would hope so, but we'll see.  I haven't yet found any plans for what the exit numbers outside of the project area will be.

The current mile markers include NY 690 so they'll probably keep it that way.   When I-690 gets the new interchange numbers it'll be the second time they've been changed.

Now, if we could just get NYSDOT R3 to not start NY 5's expressway mile markers at zero at the interchange with NY 174, but that's a separate topic.
But will the NY 690 portion get exit numbers, or will the exit numbers just disappear once the interstate ends?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: abqtraveler on January 16, 2023, 04:51:54 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2023, 09:49:11 PM
Also, Interstate 690 will get mileage-based exits as well. Will NY 690 get exit numbers as well? If so, then NY 690's terminus at NY 48/NY 631 should be mile 0, and the exit numbers should rise from there (mileage-based, of course). Finally, the $64,000 question: do they finally have a date when the Interstate 81-to-Business 81, and the Interstate 481-to-Interstate 81 conversions will occur?
The would first need to reconfigure the interchanges at both ends where "current" I-481 meets I-81 to allow the through movements to go from I-81 to I-481 at one end and vice versa at the other. The southern end has a semi-directional interchange with only one lane going from I-81N to I-481N, and one lane from I-481S to I-81S. The interchange at the northern end is a cloverleaf interchange that will have to be completely reconfigured to allow the through movement from I-81S to I-481S and vice versa going in the northbound direction. The FHWA will not allow the route designations to change until, at the very least, those two interchanges are reconfigured accordingly.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 16, 2023, 08:14:00 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on January 16, 2023, 04:51:54 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2023, 09:49:11 PM
Also, Interstate 690 will get mileage-based exits as well. Will NY 690 get exit numbers as well? If so, then NY 690's terminus at NY 48/NY 631 should be mile 0, and the exit numbers should rise from there (mileage-based, of course). Finally, the $64,000 question: do they finally have a date when the Interstate 81-to-Business 81, and the Interstate 481-to-Interstate 81 conversions will occur?
The would first need to reconfigure the interchanges at both ends where "current" I-481 meets I-81 to allow the through movements to go from I-81 to I-481 at one end and vice versa at the other. The southern end has a semi-directional interchange with only one lane going from I-81N to I-481N, and one lane from I-481S to I-81S. The interchange at the northern end is a cloverleaf interchange that will have to be completely reconfigured to allow the through movement from I-81S to I-481S and vice versa going in the northbound direction. The FHWA will not allow the route designations to change until, at the very least, those two interchanges are reconfigured accordingly.
I hear an echo.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: abqtraveler on January 16, 2023, 10:51:42 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 16, 2023, 08:14:00 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on January 16, 2023, 04:51:54 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2023, 09:49:11 PM
Also, Interstate 690 will get mileage-based exits as well. Will NY 690 get exit numbers as well? If so, then NY 690's terminus at NY 48/NY 631 should be mile 0, and the exit numbers should rise from there (mileage-based, of course). Finally, the $64,000 question: do they finally have a date when the Interstate 81-to-Business 81, and the Interstate 481-to-Interstate 81 conversions will occur?
The would first need to reconfigure the interchanges at both ends where "current" I-481 meets I-81 to allow the through movements to go from I-81 to I-481 at one end and vice versa at the other. The southern end has a semi-directional interchange with only one lane going from I-81N to I-481N, and one lane from I-481S to I-81S. The interchange at the northern end is a cloverleaf interchange that will have to be completely reconfigured to allow the through movement from I-81S to I-481S and vice versa going in the northbound direction. The FHWA will not allow the route designations to change until, at the very least, those two interchanges are reconfigured accordingly.
I hear an echo.
Sorry, I didn't see your previous post in the thread.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: amroad17 on January 16, 2023, 11:26:16 PM
Quote from: machias on January 16, 2023, 12:23:27 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2023, 07:55:31 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2023, 09:49:11 PM
Also, Interstate 690 will get mileage-based exits as well. Will NY 690 get exit numbers as well? If so, then NY 690's terminus at NY 48/NY 631 should be mile 0, and the exit numbers should rise from there (mileage-based, of course). Finally, the $64,000 question: do they finally have a date when the Interstate 81-to-Business 81, and the Interstate 481-to-Interstate 81 conversions will occur?
The I-690 numbers shown do include NY 690's mileage, so I would hope so, but we'll see.  I haven't yet found any plans for what the exit numbers outside of the project area will be.

The current mile markers include NY 690 so they'll probably keep it that way.   When I-690 gets the new interchange numbers it'll be the second time they've been changed.

Now, if we could just get NYSDOT R3 to not start NY 5's expressway mile markers at zero at the interchange with NY 174, but that's a separate topic.
NY 690 could (and maybe should*) be renumbered to I-690.  Yes, I realize that would leave a "dangling" end to an even numbered 3di, however, I-264 in Virginia Beach has a "dangling" end.  Also, since the mile markers treat NY 690 and I-690 as one entity, why not renumber.

As far as the NY 5 Camillus Bypass, unless exit tabs will be installed, there would be no advantage to changing the mile markers.  IMHO, the mile markers should not be changed nor exit tabs need to be installed.  It is a 6 mile freeway serving the western Syracuse suburbs.  Motorists using the freeway would probably not care that they are between 215.5-221.8 miles from the NY/PA line.

*OMG, I "shoulded".   :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: silverback1065 on January 17, 2023, 08:14:49 AM
Seems like this project will be similar to the inner loop removal. that project appears to have gone well and people liked it. and thru traffic was preserved.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 17, 2023, 10:27:34 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 17, 2023, 08:14:49 AM
Seems like this project will be similar to the inner loop removal. that project appears to have gone well and people liked it. and thru traffic was preserved.
That's exactly why we had mere 50 pages of discussion, and only  maybe 30 of them about how traffic would be  affected - that is  before any dirt got actually moved.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on January 17, 2023, 12:20:48 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 17, 2023, 08:14:49 AM
Seems like this project will be similar to the inner loop removal. that project appears to have gone well and people liked it. and thru traffic was preserved.

As I recall, this has been discussed at length earlier in the thread, but suffice to say "similar" is a big stretch.

Rochester is well north of the Thruway so it doesn't have nearly as much thru traffic as Syracuse to begin with, and Rochester also has I-490 to serve traffic coming to/from the city. As such, volumes on the Inner Loop were low enough to be easily handled by a surface street. That's not the case with I-81 at all. Removal of I-490 would be a more apt comparison, and even then, I-490 is mostly commuter traffic with a fraction of the cross-state, long-distance, and truck traffic that I-81 has.

There was also a strong connectivity aspect in Rochester, as the Inner Loop had "strangled" the CBD and disconnected it from the rest of the city, which kept the CBD as a "business hours only" area with limited potential. The removal provided new development opportunities, improved walkability, and much better connectivity to the relatively thriving communities to the east. There's a bit of that same dynamic in Syracuse, but not nearly to the same extent. Syracuse CBD already spans both sides of I-81 and has better connectivity as it stands than Rochester had before the Inner Loop removal.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on January 17, 2023, 02:38:43 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on January 16, 2023, 11:26:16 PM
Quote from: machias on January 16, 2023, 12:23:27 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2023, 07:55:31 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2023, 09:49:11 PM
Also, Interstate 690 will get mileage-based exits as well. Will NY 690 get exit numbers as well? If so, then NY 690's terminus at NY 48/NY 631 should be mile 0, and the exit numbers should rise from there (mileage-based, of course). Finally, the $64,000 question: do they finally have a date when the Interstate 81-to-Business 81, and the Interstate 481-to-Interstate 81 conversions will occur?
The I-690 numbers shown do include NY 690's mileage, so I would hope so, but we'll see.  I haven't yet found any plans for what the exit numbers outside of the project area will be.

The current mile markers include NY 690 so they'll probably keep it that way.   When I-690 gets the new interchange numbers it'll be the second time they've been changed.

Now, if we could just get NYSDOT R3 to not start NY 5's expressway mile markers at zero at the interchange with NY 174, but that's a separate topic.
NY 690 could (and maybe should*) be renumbered to I-690.  Yes, I realize that would leave a "dangling" end to an even numbered 3di, however, I-264 in Virginia Beach has a "dangling" end.  Also, since the mile markers treat NY 690 and I-690 as one entity, why not renumber.

As far as the NY 5 Camillus Bypass, unless exit tabs will be installed, there would be no advantage to changing the mile markers.  IMHO, the mile markers should not be changed nor exit tabs need to be installed.  It is a 6 mile freeway serving the western Syracuse suburbs.  Motorists using the freeway would probably not care that they are between 215.5-221.8 miles from the NY/PA line.

*OMG, I "shoulded".   :D

I'm off the camp that all freeway/expressway interchanges should be numbered, regardless of how many interchanges are on that freeway. So yes, NY 690 should have numbered interchanges, and the NY 5 Bypass should also have numbered interchanges, and all should be based on mileage as outlined by the MUTCD. The mileposts on the NY 5 bypass run contrary to the MUTCD.  The NY 690/I-690 combo as one entity would also run contrary to the MUTCD if the NY 690 section isn't rebadged as I-690, but if it's not funded as an interstate route, it shouldn't carry the interstate designation. I'm good with it all having one set of interchange numbers and mile markers, as that part of the country just calls it "Route 690" anyway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on January 17, 2023, 08:40:51 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 17, 2023, 12:20:48 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 17, 2023, 08:14:49 AM
Seems like this project will be similar to the inner loop removal. that project appears to have gone well and people liked it. and thru traffic was preserved.

As I recall, this has been discussed at length earlier in the thread, but suffice to say "similar" is a big stretch.

Rochester is well north of the Thruway so it doesn't have nearly as much thru traffic as Syracuse to begin with, and Rochester also has I-490 to serve traffic coming to/from the city. As such, volumes on the Inner Loop were low enough to be easily handled by a surface street. That's not the case with I-81 at all. Removal of I-490 would be a more apt comparison, and even then, I-490 is mostly commuter traffic with a fraction of the cross-state, long-distance, and truck traffic that I-81 has.

There was also a strong connectivity aspect in Rochester, as the Inner Loop had "strangled" the CBD and disconnected it from the rest of the city, which kept the CBD as a "business hours only" area with limited potential. The removal provided new development opportunities, improved walkability, and much better connectivity to the relatively thriving communities to the east. There's a bit of that same dynamic in Syracuse, but not nearly to the same extent. Syracuse CBD already spans both sides of I-81 and has better connectivity as it stands than Rochester had before the Inner Loop removal.

How about nightlife in downtown Rochester?  Did removing the IL improve that?  And will removing the 81 viaduct do the same for downtown Syracuse and the Syracuse Univ. neighborhood?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 17, 2023, 10:08:09 PM
Quote from: ixnay on January 17, 2023, 08:40:51 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 17, 2023, 12:20:48 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 17, 2023, 08:14:49 AM
Seems like this project will be similar to the inner loop removal. that project appears to have gone well and people liked it. and thru traffic was preserved.

As I recall, this has been discussed at length earlier in the thread, but suffice to say "similar" is a big stretch.

Rochester is well north of the Thruway so it doesn't have nearly as much thru traffic as Syracuse to begin with, and Rochester also has I-490 to serve traffic coming to/from the city. As such, volumes on the Inner Loop were low enough to be easily handled by a surface street. That's not the case with I-81 at all. Removal of I-490 would be a more apt comparison, and even then, I-490 is mostly commuter traffic with a fraction of the cross-state, long-distance, and truck traffic that I-81 has.

There was also a strong connectivity aspect in Rochester, as the Inner Loop had "strangled" the CBD and disconnected it from the rest of the city, which kept the CBD as a "business hours only" area with limited potential. The removal provided new development opportunities, improved walkability, and much better connectivity to the relatively thriving communities to the east. There's a bit of that same dynamic in Syracuse, but not nearly to the same extent. Syracuse CBD already spans both sides of I-81 and has better connectivity as it stands than Rochester had before the Inner Loop removal.

How about nightlife in downtown Rochester?  Did removing the IL improve that?  And will removing the 81 viaduct do the same for downtown Syracuse and the Syracuse Univ. neighborhood?
I would be really surprised if unmet demand suddenly finds a lot of new areas for growth. It's not that there is a lot of disposable income out there in Syracuse looking for a chance to be burnt. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 17, 2023, 10:18:35 PM
Quote from: ixnay on January 17, 2023, 08:40:51 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 17, 2023, 12:20:48 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 17, 2023, 08:14:49 AM
Seems like this project will be similar to the inner loop removal. that project appears to have gone well and people liked it. and thru traffic was preserved.

As I recall, this has been discussed at length earlier in the thread, but suffice to say "similar" is a big stretch.

Rochester is well north of the Thruway so it doesn't have nearly as much thru traffic as Syracuse to begin with, and Rochester also has I-490 to serve traffic coming to/from the city. As such, volumes on the Inner Loop were low enough to be easily handled by a surface street. That's not the case with I-81 at all. Removal of I-490 would be a more apt comparison, and even then, I-490 is mostly commuter traffic with a fraction of the cross-state, long-distance, and truck traffic that I-81 has.

There was also a strong connectivity aspect in Rochester, as the Inner Loop had "strangled" the CBD and disconnected it from the rest of the city, which kept the CBD as a "business hours only" area with limited potential. The removal provided new development opportunities, improved walkability, and much better connectivity to the relatively thriving communities to the east. There's a bit of that same dynamic in Syracuse, but not nearly to the same extent. Syracuse CBD already spans both sides of I-81 and has better connectivity as it stands than Rochester had before the Inner Loop removal.

How about nightlife in downtown Rochester?  Did removing the IL improve that?  And will removing the 81 viaduct do the same for downtown Syracuse and the Syracuse Univ. neighborhood?
Yes, to the former.  Not so much for the latter.  The Hill is its own little bubble with a little strip on Marshall and then the big strip on Westcott.  Tearing down the viaduct won't affect that much.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: silverback1065 on January 18, 2023, 08:13:54 AM
last off topic question. are they going to remove the rest of the IL?  :hmmm:
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 18, 2023, 08:17:07 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 18, 2023, 08:13:54 AM
last off topic question. are they going to remove the rest of the IL?  :hmmm:
Last time I checked, Illinois is going to stay where it is in foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on January 18, 2023, 08:35:24 AM
^ It's too flat to do anything with anyway...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: silverback1065 on January 18, 2023, 09:23:22 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 18, 2023, 08:17:07 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 18, 2023, 08:13:54 AM
last off topic question. are they going to remove the rest of the IL?  :hmmm:
Last time I checked, Illinois is going to stay where it is in foreseeable future.

Was that a joke? it fell flat.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 18, 2023, 11:01:24 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 18, 2023, 09:23:22 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 18, 2023, 08:17:07 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 18, 2023, 08:13:54 AM
last off topic question. are they going to remove the rest of the IL?  :hmmm:
Last time I checked, Illinois is going to stay where it is in foreseeable future.

Was that a joke? it fell flat.
Not really.  I found it to be apt.  And your unintended pun was amusing.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on January 18, 2023, 11:03:37 AM
Joking aside, the rest of the Inner Loop is going to be removed and is expected to move forward in the next few years:
https://www.innerloopnorth.com/resources

This is the preferred alternative which will advance to final design and engineering:
https://www.innerloopnorth.com/_files/ugd/86b242_cda457306e6545a5a39984fe0c81945e.pdf
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: silverback1065 on January 19, 2023, 08:36:53 AM
Quote from: webny99 on January 18, 2023, 11:03:37 AM
Joking aside, the rest of the Inner Loop is going to be removed and is expected to move forward in the next few years:
https://www.innerloopnorth.com/resources

This is the preferred alternative which will advance to final design and engineering:
https://www.innerloopnorth.com/_files/ugd/86b242_cda457306e6545a5a39984fe0c81945e.pdf

thank you. back to normal programing  :-D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 15, 2023, 10:16:19 PM
Ruling on I-81 released:

https://www.syracuse.com/news/2023/02/judge-allows-work-on-81-project-to-proceed-but-blocks-removal-of-viaduct-pending-review.html

Strange ruling in that Micron was not announced until after the FEIS was approved.

Anyway, even though Contracts 1 through 3 can proceed, NYSDOT is weighing whether or not they will appeal.

In my opinion, the statement from the plaintiffs that NYSDOT has to "go back to the drawing board" is a gross exaggeration.

Going to be some more legal shenanigans one way or another, but the Grid will still be a-coming and I'd think this'll get fully sorted out in time to let the other contracts on schedule.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on February 15, 2023, 10:31:41 PM
Interesting. Obviously the viaduct is at the center of everything regardless of what happens with I-81 being rerouted onto I-481. I know I'm fantasizing a bit here, but things would get very interesting if the changes to I-481 occur but the viaduct can't come down as planned.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 15, 2023, 11:12:15 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 15, 2023, 10:31:41 PM
Interesting. Obviously the viaduct is at the center of everything regardless of what happens with I-81 being rerouted onto I-481. I know I'm fantasizing a bit here, but things would get very interesting if the changes to I-481 occur but the viaduct can't come down as planned.
I'd be lying if that thought hadn't crossed my mind as well...especially as SMTC voted to add the projects to the TIP.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on February 16, 2023, 12:50:17 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 15, 2023, 10:31:41 PM
Interesting. Obviously the viaduct is at the center of everything regardless of what happens with I-81 being rerouted onto I-481. I know I'm fantasizing a bit here, but things would get very interesting if the changes to I-481 occur but the viaduct can't come down as planned.
Especially as the southern interchange (current 16A) isn't going to be freeway/freeway for all movements.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on February 16, 2023, 03:07:33 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 16, 2023, 12:50:17 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 15, 2023, 10:31:41 PM
Interesting. Obviously the viaduct is at the center of everything regardless of what happens with I-81 being rerouted onto I-481. I know I'm fantasizing a bit here, but things would get very interesting if the changes to I-481 occur but the viaduct can't come down as planned.
Especially as the southern interchange (current 16A) isn't going to be freeway/freeway for all movements.
Breezewood!!!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: interstatefan990 on February 16, 2023, 03:15:16 PM
I know this would face a TON of opposition, but I'd love if I-81 could get expanded to 6 lanes through downtown.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 03:18:35 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 16, 2023, 03:15:16 PM
I know this would face a TON of opposition, but I'd love if I-81 could get expanded to 6 lanes through downtown.
Syracuse has been declining in population and the road is falling apart. Unless New York gets our whole millitary budget to build a six lane underground I-81 through Syracuse it ain't happening.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 03:36:31 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 03:18:35 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 16, 2023, 03:15:16 PM
I know this would face a TON of opposition, but I'd love if I-81 could get expanded to 6 lanes through downtown.
Syracuse has been declining in population and the road is falling apart. Unless New York gets our whole millitary budget to build a six lane underground I-81 through Syracuse it ain't happening.

The viaduct's biggest problems are its age and the substandard weave movements at the Harrison/Adams and I-690 interchanges. I would be totally fine with a potential replacement being only four lanes, as that would solve both of the above problems. In fact there are many highway segments throughout the state that I'd rather see get six lanes.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 03:38:03 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 03:36:31 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 03:18:35 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 16, 2023, 03:15:16 PM
I know this would face a TON of opposition, but I'd love if I-81 could get expanded to 6 lanes through downtown.
Syracuse has been declining in population and the road is falling apart. Unless New York gets our whole millitary budget to build a six lane underground I-81 through Syracuse it ain't happening.

The viaduct's biggest problems are its age and the substandard weave movements at the Harrison/Adams and I-690 interchanges. I would be totally fine with a potential replacement being only four lanes, as that would solve both of the above problems. In fact there are many highway segments throughout the state that I'd rather see get six lanes.
It's probably been mentioned already but how many lanes is the replacement boluevard? How much money would replacing it cost vs the current project? And how crowded is I-81 through Syracuse now, as well as I-481?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 04:00:36 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 03:38:03 PM
... how many lanes is the replacement boluevard? How much money would replacing it cost vs the current project? And how crowded is I-81 through Syracuse now, as well as I-481?

Yes, that has all been discussed before... most of it at length. The replacement boulevard would be, to my knowledge, four lanes; the boulevard is somewhat cheaper than the viaduct replacement but both are expensive projects even by NY standards.

The viaduct is usually fine, traffic-wise, in my experience. Heading southbound, the transition from I-690 to I-81 is annoying because the curves are substandard and it drops to a single lane for a short span, but the overall volumes are manageable for a four-lane freeway. There are a few trouble spots on I-481 that could use widening, especially near I-690, but nothing like the traffic problems seen in larger cities.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 16, 2023, 04:02:15 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 03:18:35 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 16, 2023, 03:15:16 PM
I know this would face a TON of opposition, but I'd love if I-81 could get expanded to 6 lanes through downtown.
Syracuse has been declining in population and the road is falling apart. Unless New York gets our whole millitary budget to build a six lane underground I-81 through Syracuse it ain't happening.
Syracuse has been gaining population slightly over the past seven years.

The viaduct will come down. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 04:04:25 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 04:00:36 PM
Yes, that has all been discussed before... most of it at length. The replacement boulevard would be, to my knowledge, four lanes; the boulevard is somewhat cheaper than the viaduct replacement but both are expensive projects even by NY standards.

The viaduct is usually fine, traffic-wise, in my experience. Heading southbound, the transition from I-690 to I-81 is annoying because the curves are substandard and it drops to a single lane for a short span, but the overall volumes are manageable for a four-lane freeway. There are a few trouble spots on I-481 that could use widening, especially near I-690, but nothing like the traffic problems seen in larger cities.
53 pages is a lot to read so thanks for the explanation. From what you told me it seems like the city's network should manage without I-81 through the city. Many people say that if we remove freeways we should improve public transit to make up for it. Not sure how good Syracuse's public transit is but IMO every freeway removal project should also include improvements to public transit to help mitigate the traffic. 
Quote from: Rothman on February 16, 2023, 04:02:15 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 03:18:35 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 16, 2023, 03:15:16 PM
I know this would face a TON of opposition, but I'd love if I-81 could get expanded to 6 lanes through downtown.
Syracuse has been declining in population and the road is falling apart. Unless New York gets our whole millitary budget to build a six lane underground I-81 through Syracuse it ain't happening.
Syracuse has been gaining population slightly over the past seven years.

The viaduct will come down. 
Oh really? Maybe it's the University.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: interstatefan990 on February 16, 2023, 04:29:36 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 03:18:35 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 16, 2023, 03:15:16 PM
I know this would face a TON of opposition, but I'd love if I-81 could get expanded to 6 lanes through downtown.
Syracuse has been declining in population and the road is falling apart. Unless New York gets our whole millitary budget to build a six lane underground I-81 through Syracuse it ain't happening.

Well, don't forget the long-distance traffic. I passed through Syracuse on my way upstate once and was unlucky enough to get caught in a merge situation here (https://goo.gl/maps/Mz5Eo8oSBBtgN1i3A) with a full-on semi in the right lane, who was probably also long-distance. Might have been avoided if there was an extra lane. Also, if you click around the GSV on I-81 you'll notice a lot of semis.

Quote from: Rothman on February 16, 2023, 04:02:15 PM
The viaduct will come down. 

If that's true, I'd at least want to see something good take its place.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 04:30:47 PM
Aren't they also improving I-481 as part of the plan?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 16, 2023, 04:37:57 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 04:30:47 PM
Aren't they also improving I-481 as part of the plan?
Yes.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 16, 2023, 04:38:36 PM


Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 16, 2023, 04:29:36 PM

Quote from: Rothman on February 16, 2023, 04:02:15 PM
The viaduct will come down. 

If that's true, I'd at least want to see something good take its place.

That would be the grid.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: interstatefan990 on February 16, 2023, 04:41:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 16, 2023, 04:37:57 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 04:30:47 PM
Aren't they also improving I-481 as part of the plan?
Yes.

Isn't the plan also to reroute I-81 traffic onto I-481? The addition of a third lane still might not even be enough to handle the increased traffic, especially with rush hour IMO.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 04:46:30 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 16, 2023, 04:41:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 16, 2023, 04:37:57 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 04:30:47 PM
Aren't they also improving I-481 as part of the plan?
Yes.

Isn't the plan also to reroute I-81 traffic onto I-481? The addition of a third lane still might not even be enough to handle the increased traffic, especially with rush hour IMO.
If the I-81 traffic was going dowtown they wouldn't be taking I-81 all the way through anyway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 06:33:49 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 04:04:25 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 04:00:36 PM
Yes, that has all been discussed before... most of it at length. The replacement boulevard would be, to my knowledge, four lanes; the boulevard is somewhat cheaper than the viaduct replacement but both are expensive projects even by NY standards.

The viaduct is usually fine, traffic-wise, in my experience. Heading southbound, the transition from I-690 to I-81 is annoying because the curves are substandard and it drops to a single lane for a short span, but the overall volumes are manageable for a four-lane freeway. There are a few trouble spots on I-481 that could use widening, especially near I-690, but nothing like the traffic problems seen in larger cities.
53 pages is a lot to read so thanks for the explanation. From what you told me it seems like the city's network should manage without I-81 through the city. Many people say that if we remove freeways we should improve public transit to make up for it. Not sure how good Syracuse's public transit is but IMO every freeway removal project should also include improvements to public transit to help mitigate the traffic.

The city should be able to manage without I-81 - that's why they're supportive of the grid. Plus, anyone coming to the city is going to be using surface streets anyways. The problem is the traffic from the suburbs and surrounding cities who use the viaduct to get to and through and around Syracuse. North/south thru traffic can use I-481, but that doesn't account for the western suburbs and the areas west of Syracuse (including Rochester and sometimes Buffalo) who currently use the viaduct to get to I-81 south. This will majorly affect a trip from Rochester to Binghamton, just as one example.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 08:31:40 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 06:33:49 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 04:04:25 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 04:00:36 PM
Yes, that has all been discussed before... most of it at length. The replacement boulevard would be, to my knowledge, four lanes; the boulevard is somewhat cheaper than the viaduct replacement but both are expensive projects even by NY standards.

The viaduct is usually fine, traffic-wise, in my experience. Heading southbound, the transition from I-690 to I-81 is annoying because the curves are substandard and it drops to a single lane for a short span, but the overall volumes are manageable for a four-lane freeway. There are a few trouble spots on I-481 that could use widening, especially near I-690, but nothing like the traffic problems seen in larger cities.
53 pages is a lot to read so thanks for the explanation. From what you told me it seems like the city's network should manage without I-81 through the city. Many people say that if we remove freeways we should improve public transit to make up for it. Not sure how good Syracuse's public transit is but IMO every freeway removal project should also include improvements to public transit to help mitigate the traffic.

The city should be able to manage without I-81 - that's why they're supportive of the grid. Plus, anyone coming to the city is going to be using surface streets anyways. The problem is the traffic from the suburbs and surrounding cities who use the viaduct to get to and through and around Syracuse. North/south thru traffic can use I-481, but that doesn't account for the western suburbs and the areas west of Syracuse (including Rochester and sometimes Buffalo) who currently use the viaduct to get to I-81 south. This will majorly affect a trip from Rochester to Binghamton, just as one example.
For Rochester to Binghamton, it adds an extra 9 minutes. Not awful honestly. And I don't think that Syracuse residents who live in the city all the time really care if Rochester-Binghamton traffic has to take an extra 9 minutes. You live in Rochester, and looking at the map, this mostly affects Rochester bound traffic the most. Doesn't affect Buffalo-east traffic that much.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on February 16, 2023, 08:58:02 PM
Would not Rochester to Binghamton take 390
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 09:01:28 PM
Quote from: ARMOURERERIC on February 16, 2023, 08:58:02 PM
Would not Rochester to Binghamton take 390
90-481-81 would still be faster than 390-86.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on February 16, 2023, 09:09:27 PM
Quote from: ARMOURERERIC on February 16, 2023, 08:58:02 PM
Would not Rochester to Binghamton take 390
I-390 is longer than even taking I-481, except for the west side for which it is about the same (and even then, often still a minute longer).  For the east side, it's no contest.  This is true even in Henrietta.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 10:15:09 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 08:31:40 PM
For Rochester to Binghamton, it adds an extra 9 minutes. Not awful honestly. And I don't think that Syracuse residents who live in the city all the time really care if Rochester-Binghamton traffic has to take an extra 9 minutes. You live in Rochester, and looking at the map, this mostly affects Rochester bound traffic the most. Doesn't affect Buffalo-east traffic that much.

Well, here we go again.  :cool:

Yes, I am well aware that it affects Rochester the most - and I'm not expecting anyone in Syracuse to care about traffic from Rochester, but from a traffic and engineering standpoint, they are all users of the road and it's part of a much larger road network, so all users of the road should considered, not just the locals. 9 minutes is a lot for medium-distance trip or a commute (remember, this affects anyone who commutes on the viaduct too, so it could go from a 10 minute trip to 18-19 in extreme cases), and there's not really any way to save time on alternate routes.

And it affects the Buffalo area just as much for anyone that takes the Thruway to Syracuse and then heads south. Some Buffalo traffic can use US 20A>NY 36>I-390 to get to Binghamton, but that's not faster from north of Buffalo, and it's also not viable for traffic heading to Cortland or anywhere else north of Binghamton.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 10:20:02 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 10:15:09 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 08:31:40 PM
For Rochester to Binghamton, it adds an extra 9 minutes. Not awful honestly. And I don't think that Syracuse residents who live in the city all the time really care if Rochester-Binghamton traffic has to take an extra 9 minutes. You live in Rochester, and looking at the map, this mostly affects Rochester bound traffic the most. Doesn't affect Buffalo-east traffic that much.

Well, here we go again.  :cool:

Yes, I am well aware that it affects Rochester the most - and I'm not expecting anyone in Syracuse to care about traffic from Rochester, but from a traffic and engineering standpoint, they are all users of the road and it's part of a much larger road network, so all users of the road should considered, not just the locals. 9 minutes is a lot for medium-distance trip or a commute (remember, this affects anyone who commutes on the viaduct too, so it could go from a 10 minute trip to 18-19 in extreme cases), and there's not really any way to save time on alternate routes.

And it affects the Buffalo area just as much for anyone that takes the Thruway to Syracuse and then heads south. Some Buffalo traffic can use US 20A>NY 36>I-390 to get to Binghamton, but that's not faster from north of Buffalo, and it's also not viable for traffic heading to Cortland or anywhere else north of Binghamton.
Buffalo to Binghamton is 6 minutes faster using US 20A than I-81. Sure Cortland, but how much Buffalo-Cortland traffic is there? Like anything in our society, you have to weigh potential benefits and drawbacks. And maybe the extra minutes needed to detour isn't important enough to outweighs the benefits of tearing it down. Not everyone is a roadgeek you know.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 16, 2023, 10:20:20 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 16, 2023, 04:41:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 16, 2023, 04:37:57 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 04:30:47 PM
Aren't they also improving I-481 as part of the plan?
Yes.

Isn't the plan also to reroute I-81 traffic onto I-481? The addition of a third lane still might not even be enough to handle the increased traffic, especially with rush hour IMO.
The only rush hour snafu in Syracuse is downtown at the Adams and Harrison ramps on I-81.  People will still take BL 81 downtown.

There will be additional traffic on new I-81, but the planned improvements will be adequate.

Keep your eye on NY 5/92, though.  I'm interested in seeing if the plans will work out along that busy suburban corridor.

Same goes for NY 31 in Cicero as Micron gets built.  So far, NYSDOT hasn't seen a dime of the promised $200m that was announced, insofar as I know.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 10:22:17 PM
In a freeway system like in Europe where freeways stay out of downtowns, maybe I-81 would be routed to the west of downtown Syracuse. Basically forming a loop with I-481 without going through downtown. That would be best in suppose. Unsure about 690.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 16, 2023, 10:23:23 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 10:22:17 PM
In a freeway system like in Europe where freeways stay out of downtowns, maybe I-81 would be routed to the west of downtown Syracuse. Basically forming a loop with I-481 without going through downtown. That would be best in suppose. Unsure about 690.
Please check the terrain southwest of Syracuse...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 10:24:23 PM
Also since we're getting way into the weeds here (although this will likely have a practical bearing someday), there are also alternates using backroads to "cut the corner" and avoid the Syracuse area altogether. This typically involves taking Thruway Exit 41 to NY 318 to NY 5/US 20, and then either local roads to NY 34 to NY 90, or going through Auburn (not recommended during daytime hours) and then heading south on NY 41, rejoining I-81 in Homer. These alternatives save about 20 miles and are within a couple of minutes time-wise, as seen here (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.9650072,-76.8470017/42.6207158,-76.181351/@42.7671737,-76.6705767,10z/data=!4m3!4m2!3e0!5i1!5m1!1e1) (at the time of this post).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 10:25:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 16, 2023, 10:23:23 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 10:22:17 PM
In a freeway system like in Europe where freeways stay out of downtowns, maybe I-81 would be routed to the west of downtown Syracuse. Basically forming a loop with I-481 without going through downtown. That would be best in suppose. Unsure about 690.
Please check the terrain southwest of Syracuse...
I see. Seems like my proposal would be tough then.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 10:28:40 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 10:24:23 PM
Also since we're getting way into the weeds here (although this will likely have a practical bearing someday), there are also alternates using backroads to "cut the corner" and avoid the Syracuse area altogether. This typically involves taking Thruway Exit 41 to NY 318 to NY 5/US 20, and then either local roads to NY 34 to NY 90, or going through Auburn (not recommended during daytime hours) and then heading south on NY 41, rejoining I-81 in Homer. These alternatives save about 20 miles and are within a couple of minutes time-wise, as seen here (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.9650072,-76.8470017/42.6207158,-76.181351/@42.7671737,-76.6705767,10z/data=!4m3!4m2!3e0!5i1!5m1!1e1) (at the time of this post).
Yeah, and unless those roads start getting clogged, they can absolutely work for travel. Not every corridor has to be 100% freeway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 10:37:59 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 10:20:02 PM
Buffalo to Binghamton is 6 minutes faster using US 20A than I-81. Sure Cortland, but how much Buffalo-Cortland traffic is there?

That's true from downtown, and also the southern suburbs such as Hamburg and Orchard Park. For the Buffalo-Niagara area as a whole, though, it's basically 50/50. Most areas to the north, such as Amherst (population 130k), the Tonawandas (combined 115k), and all of Niagara County (212k) would be faster to use I-90 to I-81.


Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 10:20:02 PM
Like anything in our society, you have to weigh potential benefits and drawbacks. And maybe the extra minutes needed to detour isn't important enough to outweighs the benefits of tearing it down. Not everyone is a roadgeek you know.

Well, of course. There are a lot of people who's job it is to figure that out. I'm not one of them, but the justification needs to be very strong to remove a major interstate from a city that's a significant interstate crossroads. There's really no precedent for it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 10:46:18 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 10:28:40 PM
Yeah, and unless those roads start getting clogged, they can absolutely work for travel. Not every corridor has to be 100% freeway.

Yes, although in general it is safer to keep long distance traffic on freeways or divided highways. I haven't driven all of this route so I can't comment on all of it, but it's mostly two lanes outside of Auburn.

The other thing is that the people in these towns (especially Skaneateles, as I recall) are not happy about the viaduct coming down, as it may mean more truck traffic in their towns. Skaneateles is a quaint Finger Lakes village that would lose a lot of its charm if it became a major truck route.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on February 16, 2023, 10:49:02 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 10:28:40 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 10:24:23 PM
Also since we're getting way into the weeds here (although this will likely have a practical bearing someday), there are also alternates using backroads to "cut the corner" and avoid the Syracuse area altogether. This typically involves taking Thruway Exit 41 to NY 318 to NY 5/US 20, and then either local roads to NY 34 to NY 90, or going through Auburn (not recommended during daytime hours) and then heading south on NY 41, rejoining I-81 in Homer. These alternatives save about 20 miles and are within a couple of minutes time-wise, as seen here (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.9650072,-76.8470017/42.6207158,-76.181351/@42.7671737,-76.6705767,10z/data=!4m3!4m2!3e0!5i1!5m1!1e1) (at the time of this post).
Yeah, and unless those roads start getting clogged, they can absolutely work for travel. Not every corridor has to be 100% freeway.
Right, so let's put 75 miles of a trip between New York City and Rochester (two major cities in New York) on two lane road, and eliminate what is currently an all interstate highway routing.

Perfect logic.

And since you're talking about potential benefits and drawbacks, how about evaluate the safety aspect of routing significant traffic volumes onto two lane roads. Increased risk for head on collisions, major reduction in safety overall, reduction in capacity, there's ripple effects demolishing this highway has that goes beyond Syracuse. Adding 10 minutes to a trip will divert traffic traveling long distance onto back roads, clogging towns, increase accidents, basically going backwards from what we should be doing.

You can argue the urbanist aspects all day, and tell me well this project isn't changing... I'm not saying it is, I'm merely explaining reality of what's going to happen.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on February 16, 2023, 11:53:57 PM
As webny said upthread, "here we go again".

First off, sprjus, there's already an all-Interstate routing between NYC and Rochester that does not involve I-81 at all.

Second, you're not talking about a large volume of traffic beween the south and west of Syracuse.  NYSDOT's OD studies concluded that only a couple thousand vehicles a day are making the connection between 81 to/from the south and 90 to/from the west...and it stands to reason that not all of them are going beyond Binghamton or all the way to Rochester.

Third, the route webny suggests is notably LESS than 75 miles.  Though if I were to do such and wanted to avoid Syracuse, I'd probably cut between Exit 40 and Tully instead.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on February 17, 2023, 12:18:24 AM
Quote from: froggie on February 16, 2023, 11:53:57 PM
As webny said upthread, "here we go again".

First off, sprjus, there's already an all-Interstate routing between NYC and Rochester that does not involve I-81 at all.

Second, you're not talking about a large volume of traffic beween the south and west of Syracuse.  NYSDOT's OD studies concluded that only a couple thousand vehicles a day are making the connection between 81 to/from the south and 90 to/from the west...and it stands to reason that not all of them are going beyond Binghamton or all the way to Rochester.

Third, the route webny suggests is notably LESS than 75 miles.  Though if I were to do such and wanted to avoid Syracuse, I'd probably cut between Exit 40 and Tully instead.
Did NYSDOT's studies keep in mind that most people would be taking I-690, not directly from I-81 to I-90?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2023, 12:59:33 AM
This would sure be great if they kept the viaduct!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2023, 02:09:46 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 16, 2023, 10:49:02 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 10:28:40 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 10:24:23 PM
Also since we're getting way into the weeds here (although this will likely have a practical bearing someday), there are also alternates using backroads to "cut the corner" and avoid the Syracuse area altogether. This typically involves taking Thruway Exit 41 to NY 318 to NY 5/US 20, and then either local roads to NY 34 to NY 90, or going through Auburn (not recommended during daytime hours) and then heading south on NY 41, rejoining I-81 in Homer. These alternatives save about 20 miles and are within a couple of minutes time-wise, as seen here (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.9650072,-76.8470017/42.6207158,-76.181351/@42.7671737,-76.6705767,10z/data=!4m3!4m2!3e0!5i1!5m1!1e1) (at the time of this post).
Yeah, and unless those roads start getting clogged, they can absolutely work for travel. Not every corridor has to be 100% freeway.
Right, so let's put 75 miles of a trip between New York City and Rochester (two major cities in New York) on two lane road, and eliminate what is currently an all interstate highway routing.

Perfect logic.

Coming from someone who's made the drive from the NYC area to Rochester and back a good number of times, this isn't the worst thing. The Thruway north of Albany in its most rural sections is pretty drab to drive through, so any surface road detour sounds nice.

Also, if you're planning to not do just 87 and 90, and instead stop in any of the Finger Lakes southern cities/towns, you're going to need to use two lane roads for a good distance anyway. Ithaca is a good example. This is why it's a wish of mine to see more of NY-13 between Elmira and Cortland upgraded to freeway status, or at least limited-access expressway, wherever possible. The same is true for NY-96 between Ithaca and I-90. I think Ithaca, being one of the largest cities in NY without an interstate, deserves better access to the rest of the system. It could even lead to a rejuvenation of the area economically, and allow more to enjoy its natural beauty.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 17, 2023, 06:58:36 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 17, 2023, 12:18:24 AM
Quote from: froggie on February 16, 2023, 11:53:57 PM
As webny said upthread, "here we go again".

First off, sprjus, there's already an all-Interstate routing between NYC and Rochester that does not involve I-81 at all.

Second, you're not talking about a large volume of traffic beween the south and west of Syracuse.  NYSDOT's OD studies concluded that only a couple thousand vehicles a day are making the connection between 81 to/from the south and 90 to/from the west...and it stands to reason that not all of them are going beyond Binghamton or all the way to Rochester.

Third, the route webny suggests is notably LESS than 75 miles.  Though if I were to do such and wanted to avoid Syracuse, I'd probably cut between Exit 40 and Tully instead.
Did NYSDOT's studies keep in mind that most people would be taking I-690, not directly from I-81 to I-90?
Yes.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 17, 2023, 07:00:53 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2023, 02:09:46 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 16, 2023, 10:49:02 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 10:28:40 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 10:24:23 PM
Also since we're getting way into the weeds here (although this will likely have a practical bearing someday), there are also alternates using backroads to "cut the corner" and avoid the Syracuse area altogether. This typically involves taking Thruway Exit 41 to NY 318 to NY 5/US 20, and then either local roads to NY 34 to NY 90, or going through Auburn (not recommended during daytime hours) and then heading south on NY 41, rejoining I-81 in Homer. These alternatives save about 20 miles and are within a couple of minutes time-wise, as seen here (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.9650072,-76.8470017/42.6207158,-76.181351/@42.7671737,-76.6705767,10z/data=!4m3!4m2!3e0!5i1!5m1!1e1) (at the time of this post).
Yeah, and unless those roads start getting clogged, they can absolutely work for travel. Not every corridor has to be 100% freeway.
Right, so let's put 75 miles of a trip between New York City and Rochester (two major cities in New York) on two lane road, and eliminate what is currently an all interstate highway routing.

Perfect logic.

Coming from someone who's made the drive from the NYC area to Rochester and back a good number of times, this isn't the worst thing. The Thruway north of Albany in its most rural sections is pretty drab to drive through, so any surface road detour sounds nice.

Also, if you're planning to not do just 87 and 90, and instead stop in any of the Finger Lakes southern cities/towns, you're going to need to use two lane roads for a good distance anyway. Ithaca is a good example. This is why it's a wish of mine to see more of NY-13 between Elmira and Cortland upgraded to freeway status, or at least limited-access expressway, wherever possible. The same is true for NY-96 between Ithaca and I-90. I think Ithaca, being one of the largest cities in NY without an interstate, deserves better access to the rest of the system. It could even lead to a rejuvenation of the area economically, and allow more to enjoy its natural beauty.
The Thruway north of Albany?

Taking I-87 to I-90 between NYC and Rochester?

Stopping in Ithaca while using I-87 and I-90?

What is this nonsense?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on February 17, 2023, 07:48:03 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2023, 12:59:33 AM
This would sure be great if they kept the viaduct!

The viaduct is coming down.  Best for it to happen when traffic is NOT using it.  That thing was a rustbucket 20 years ago and there's no amount of rehab that can save the existing structure.

What you probably meant to say is "this would sure be great if the viaduct was being replaced."
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 17, 2023, 08:20:19 AM
There are rumblings that the judge's ruling actually may bolster the argument for the Grid in the end.  If you go along with the logic that NYSDOT did not consider Micron in its alternatives (remember that the Grid was not the only one), that means the proposed viaduct replacement was undersized, causing the need for more ROW (probably from the Upstate properties) and materials to build an even wider viaduct due to Micron.  This means that the viaduct replacement would be even less competitive than it was before.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on February 17, 2023, 08:49:14 AM
Quote from: froggie on February 16, 2023, 11:53:57 PM
First off, sprjus, there's already an all-Interstate routing between NYC and Rochester that does not involve I-81 at all.

There's technically two all-interstate routings if you allow I-81 south of Binghamton. I-390>I-86*>I-81>I-380>I-80 is a bit longer than going through Syracuse, but still more viable than I-90>I-87 (which has over $20 in tolls in addition to the longer mileage and time).



Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 17, 2023, 12:18:24 AM
Quote from: froggie on February 16, 2023, 11:53:57 PM
Second, you're not talking about a large volume of traffic beween the south and west of Syracuse.  NYSDOT's OD studies concluded that only a couple thousand vehicles a day are making the connection between 81 to/from the south and 90 to/from the west...and it stands to reason that not all of them are going beyond Binghamton or all the way to Rochester.
...
Did NYSDOT's studies keep in mind that most people would be taking I-690, not directly from I-81 to I-90?

Both connections (via I-690 and I-81 to I-90 directly) were supposedly accounted for in the study. As I said way earlier in the thread, it seems low to me, but I have no basis to dispute it other than personal experience. And I question whether seasonal/summer travel is is accounted for, but have no idea if it is.

Also FWIW... it's a toss-up as to which way is faster to get between I-90 east and I-81 south. I-690 saves a little bit of mileage and tolls, but it's within a minute or two at most, and I-90 to I-81 is more consistent, traffic-wise.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2023, 12:45:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2023, 07:00:53 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2023, 02:09:46 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 16, 2023, 10:49:02 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 10:28:40 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 10:24:23 PM
Also since we're getting way into the weeds here (although this will likely have a practical bearing someday), there are also alternates using backroads to "cut the corner" and avoid the Syracuse area altogether. This typically involves taking Thruway Exit 41 to NY 318 to NY 5/US 20, and then either local roads to NY 34 to NY 90, or going through Auburn (not recommended during daytime hours) and then heading south on NY 41, rejoining I-81 in Homer. These alternatives save about 20 miles and are within a couple of minutes time-wise, as seen here (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.9650072,-76.8470017/42.6207158,-76.181351/@42.7671737,-76.6705767,10z/data=!4m3!4m2!3e0!5i1!5m1!1e1) (at the time of this post).
Yeah, and unless those roads start getting clogged, they can absolutely work for travel. Not every corridor has to be 100% freeway.
Right, so let's put 75 miles of a trip between New York City and Rochester (two major cities in New York) on two lane road, and eliminate what is currently an all interstate highway routing.

Perfect logic.

Coming from someone who's made the drive from the NYC area to Rochester and back a good number of times, this isn't the worst thing. The Thruway north of Albany in its most rural sections is pretty drab to drive through, so any surface road detour sounds nice.

Also, if you're planning to not do just 87 and 90, and instead stop in any of the Finger Lakes southern cities/towns, you're going to need to use two lane roads for a good distance anyway. Ithaca is a good example. This is why it's a wish of mine to see more of NY-13 between Elmira and Cortland upgraded to freeway status, or at least limited-access expressway, wherever possible. The same is true for NY-96 between Ithaca and I-90. I think Ithaca, being one of the largest cities in NY without an interstate, deserves better access to the rest of the system. It could even lead to a rejuvenation of the area economically, and allow more to enjoy its natural beauty.
The Thruway north of Albany?

Taking I-87 to I-90 between NYC and Rochester?

Stopping in Ithaca while using I-87 and I-90?

What is this nonsense?

Yes, rural parts of the Thruway that are geographically north of Albany, not actually in a straight line continuing north from Albany. The Hudson Valley part of the Thruway is more scenic and less boring to drive on. And I said stopping in Ithaca if you're not using 87 and 90.

Also, excuse *ME* for daring to diverge from the topic a teeny bit and focusing on sprjus4's apparent claim that trips between NYC and Rochester should remain an all-interstate routing.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 17, 2023, 01:31:30 PM


Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2023, 12:45:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2023, 07:00:53 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2023, 02:09:46 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 16, 2023, 10:49:02 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 16, 2023, 10:28:40 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 16, 2023, 10:24:23 PM
Also since we're getting way into the weeds here (although this will likely have a practical bearing someday), there are also alternates using backroads to "cut the corner" and avoid the Syracuse area altogether. This typically involves taking Thruway Exit 41 to NY 318 to NY 5/US 20, and then either local roads to NY 34 to NY 90, or going through Auburn (not recommended during daytime hours) and then heading south on NY 41, rejoining I-81 in Homer. These alternatives save about 20 miles and are within a couple of minutes time-wise, as seen here (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.9650072,-76.8470017/42.6207158,-76.181351/@42.7671737,-76.6705767,10z/data=!4m3!4m2!3e0!5i1!5m1!1e1) (at the time of this post).
Yeah, and unless those roads start getting clogged, they can absolutely work for travel. Not every corridor has to be 100% freeway.
Right, so let's put 75 miles of a trip between New York City and Rochester (two major cities in New York) on two lane road, and eliminate what is currently an all interstate highway routing.

Perfect logic.

Coming from someone who's made the drive from the NYC area to Rochester and back a good number of times, this isn't the worst thing. The Thruway north of Albany in its most rural sections is pretty drab to drive through, so any surface road detour sounds nice.

Also, if you're planning to not do just 87 and 90, and instead stop in any of the Finger Lakes southern cities/towns, you're going to need to use two lane roads for a good distance anyway. Ithaca is a good example. This is why it's a wish of mine to see more of NY-13 between Elmira and Cortland upgraded to freeway status, or at least limited-access expressway, wherever possible. The same is true for NY-96 between Ithaca and I-90. I think Ithaca, being one of the largest cities in NY without an interstate, deserves better access to the rest of the system. It could even lead to a rejuvenation of the area economically, and allow more to enjoy its natural beauty.
The Thruway north of Albany?

Taking I-87 to I-90 between NYC and Rochester?

Stopping in Ithaca while using I-87 and I-90?

What is this nonsense?

Yes, rural parts of the Thruway that are geographically north of Albany, not actually in a straight line continuing north from Albany. The Hudson Valley part of the Thruway is more scenic and less boring to drive on. And I said stopping in Ithaca if you're not using 87 and 90.

Also, excuse *ME* for daring to diverge from the topic a teeny bit and focusing on sprjus4's apparent claim that trips between NYC and Rochester should remain an all-interstate routing.

Certainly a unique perspective, especially given other discussions on the forum regarding scenery along the Thruway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on February 17, 2023, 01:52:36 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2023, 12:45:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2023, 07:00:53 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2023, 02:09:46 AM
Coming from someone who's made the drive from the NYC area to Rochester and back a good number of times, this isn't the worst thing. The Thruway north of Albany in its most rural sections is pretty drab to drive through, so any surface road detour sounds nice.
The Thruway north of Albany?

Taking I-87 to I-90 between NYC and Rochester?

Stopping in Ithaca while using I-87 and I-90?

What is this nonsense?

Yes, rural parts of the Thruway that are geographically north of Albany, not actually in a straight line continuing north from Albany. The Hudson Valley part of the Thruway is more scenic and less boring to drive on. And I said stopping in Ithaca if you're not using 87 and 90.

Also, excuse *ME* for daring to diverge from the topic a teeny bit and focusing on sprjus4's apparent claim that trips between NYC and Rochester should remain an all-interstate routing.

Most normal people would say the Thruway west of Albany, not north...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on February 17, 2023, 02:05:49 PM
Quote from: froggie on February 17, 2023, 01:52:36 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2023, 12:45:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2023, 07:00:53 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2023, 02:09:46 AM
Coming from someone who's made the drive from the NYC area to Rochester and back a good number of times, this isn't the worst thing. The Thruway north of Albany in its most rural sections is pretty drab to drive through, so any surface road detour sounds nice.
The Thruway north of Albany?

Taking I-87 to I-90 between NYC and Rochester?

Stopping in Ithaca while using I-87 and I-90?

What is this nonsense?

Yes, rural parts of the Thruway that are geographically north of Albany, not actually in a straight line continuing north from Albany. The Hudson Valley part of the Thruway is more scenic and less boring to drive on. And I said stopping in Ithaca if you're not using 87 and 90.

Also, excuse *ME* for daring to diverge from the topic a teeny bit and focusing on sprjus4's apparent claim that trips between NYC and Rochester should remain an all-interstate routing.

Most normal people would say the Thruway west of Albany, not north...
Maybe the purpose was to exclude part of Buffalo-Erie stretch from generalization?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2023, 02:31:05 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2023, 01:31:30 PM
Certainly a unique perspective, especially given other discussions on the forum regarding scenery along the Thruway.

You're telling me this (https://goo.gl/maps/C5j5EvfFFDJsZF4T7) is scenic?

Quote from: froggie on February 17, 2023, 01:52:36 PM
Most normal people would say the Thruway west of Albany, not north...

There's no Thruway east of Albany, so that's not a much better alternative. "The Thruway past Albany" is what I think you're trying to say.

Quote from: kalvado on February 17, 2023, 02:05:49 PM
Maybe the purpose was to exclude part of Buffalo-Erie stretch from generalization?

Correct. I've never driven that stretch (but am planning to this summer), so I can't really speak to the scenery of that portion anyway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on February 17, 2023, 02:35:57 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2023, 02:31:05 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2023, 01:31:30 PM
Certainly a unique perspective, especially given other discussions on the forum regarding scenery along the Thruway.

You're telling me this (https://goo.gl/maps/C5j5EvfFFDJsZF4T7) is scenic?

Quote from: froggie on February 17, 2023, 01:52:36 PM
Most normal people would say the Thruway west of Albany, not north...

There's no Thruway east of Albany, so that's not a much better alternative. "The Thruway past Albany" is what I think you're trying to say.

The Berkshire Connector says hi
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2023, 02:42:16 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 17, 2023, 02:35:57 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2023, 02:31:05 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2023, 01:31:30 PM
Certainly a unique perspective, especially given other discussions on the forum regarding scenery along the Thruway.

You're telling me this (https://goo.gl/maps/C5j5EvfFFDJsZF4T7) is scenic?

Quote from: froggie on February 17, 2023, 01:52:36 PM
Most normal people would say the Thruway west of Albany, not north...

There's no Thruway east of Albany, so that's not a much better alternative. "The Thruway past Albany" is what I think you're trying to say.

The Berkshire Connector says hi

I was talking about the mainline, but you're right. One really can never be too specific.  :D
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on February 17, 2023, 03:11:33 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2023, 02:31:05 PM
Quote from: froggie on February 17, 2023, 01:52:36 PM
Most normal people would say the Thruway west of Albany, not north...

There's no Thruway east of Albany, so that's not a much better alternative. "The Thruway past Albany" is what I think you're trying to say.

North of Albany made me think of the Northway, which is sometimes confused with the Thruway because I-87 is designated on both. I think just "I-90 west of Albany" is what you're referring to. 

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on February 17, 2023, 04:53:37 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2023, 02:31:05 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2023, 01:31:30 PM
Certainly a unique perspective, especially given other discussions on the forum regarding scenery along the Thruway.

You're telling me this (https://goo.gl/maps/C5j5EvfFFDJsZF4T7) is scenic?

Quote from: froggie on February 17, 2023, 01:52:36 PM
Most normal people would say the Thruway west of Albany, not north...

There's no Thruway east of Albany, so that's not a much better alternative. "The Thruway past Albany" is what I think you're trying to say.

Quote from: kalvado on February 17, 2023, 02:05:49 PM
Maybe the purpose was to exclude part of Buffalo-Erie stretch from generalization?

Correct. I've never driven that stretch (but am planning to this summer), so I can't really speak to the scenery of that portion anyway.
There certainly is Thruway east of Albany. It is called "Berkshire spur"
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2023, 05:40:17 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 17, 2023, 04:53:37 PM
There certainly is Thruway east of Albany. It is called "Berkshire spur"

Read my last reply.  :pan:
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 17, 2023, 05:47:35 PM
Heck with this silly conversation.  Need to get back to I-81.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeekteen on February 17, 2023, 05:59:28 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2023, 05:47:35 PM
Heck with this silly conversation.  Need to get back to I-81.
Well soon there won't be an I-81 in Syracuse anymore.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on February 17, 2023, 07:13:34 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 17, 2023, 05:59:28 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2023, 05:47:35 PM
Heck with this silly conversation.  Need to get back to I-81.
Well soon there won't be an I-81 in Syracuse anymore.
There will be two versions of I-81. A former 481, and never dying Viaduct. Following Albany tradition one of them can be Alternative 81
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Henry on February 17, 2023, 08:29:05 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 17, 2023, 07:13:34 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 17, 2023, 05:59:28 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2023, 05:47:35 PM
Heck with this silly conversation.  Need to get back to I-81.
Well soon there won't be an I-81 in Syracuse anymore.
There will be two versions of I-81. A former 481, and never dying Viaduct. Following Albany tradition one of them can be Alternative 81
Surely, old I-481 will be worked on first before the viaduct goes down, right? Then BL 81 through the community grid!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on February 20, 2023, 07:05:17 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on February 20, 2023, 03:39:17 AM
Not everyone has time to read over 1000 posts.  I think Henry has a legitimate question.

Remember not all users are not on the Spectrum with time all day to read every thread and post. Some have jobs, chores, TV recreation etc. and only are on here for a moment.
It is equally impossible to answer basic questions all the time.
The best option for such long and somewhat messy discussion IMHO is to have a pinned summary if forum engine allows that. It would have to be updated once in a while.
There is an option to have a poll stapled to the top, maybe that is an option?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on February 21, 2023, 09:43:18 PM
I know this is set in stone but the "BL 81"  designation really bugs the hell out of me. If you don't want "81"  going through downtown, you don't get "81" , whether it's a green Interstate shield or a traditional Interstate marker. It should either go back to US 11 between the I-81/I-481 junctions or it should become two odd numbered 3di routes. The whole "BL 81"  label doesn't match anything else in New York State and could be misleading for the traveling public who's going to end up on a boulevard in the middle of the city. This is a whole "have your cake and eat it too"  situation for the viaduct cheerleaders and honestly it's deceiving.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 12:19:52 AM
I would have rather had two 3dis to retain 90% fed share eligibility...

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on February 22, 2023, 07:42:21 AM
What was their rationale behind not leaving north of 690 as a 3di?  As I recall, that was the original intention.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on February 22, 2023, 01:05:05 PM
The Business 81 designation doesn't bother me (although as an alternative, the section north of Interstate 690 could have been numbered Interstate 181, and the portion south of 690 NY 181). When Interstate 80 was relocated onto Interstate 880's route in Sacramento, the old 80 alignment became Business 80, as did old Interstate 40 in Winston-Salem, as well as old Interstate 85 in both Spartanburg and Greensboro. Of course, I would have preferred that Interstate 81 remain completely freeway on its existing alignment through the Syracuse area, but since that won't happen, the Business 81 seems like the best designation to me (unless someone wanted it to be a lengthy relocation of US 11).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on February 22, 2023, 01:06:27 PM
Quote from: froggie on February 22, 2023, 07:42:21 AM
What was their rationale behind not leaving north of 690 as a 3di?  As I recall, that was the original intention.
The FEIS noted something about it costing more.  Given that FHWA doesn't like partial interchange, I presume that the removal of building the missing ramps between I-81 and I-690 from the community grid proposal is the reason why.  I also wouldn't be surprised if it was hoped that the business loop would help appease DestiNY USA and the hotels in Salina.

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: abqtraveler on March 06, 2023, 09:47:06 AM
Just found an article that a New York judge has blocked the removal of I-81 through downtown Syracuse, which is now being appealed by the State of New York and the City of Syracuse.

https://www.syracuse.com/news/2023/03/state-transportation-department-will-appeal-recent-court-ruling-on-i-81.html
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on March 06, 2023, 11:36:04 AM
Quote from: abqtraveler on March 06, 2023, 09:47:06 AM
Just found an article that a New York judge has blocked the removal of I-81 through downtown Syracuse, which is now being appealed by the State of New York and the City of Syracuse.

https://www.syracuse.com/news/2023/03/state-transportation-department-will-appeal-recent-court-ruling-on-i-81.html
Yeah, the original ruling was strange and this kind of "this part is okay, but this isn't" approach was unexpected.  The precedent that when you're off and running months after ROD and then have to go back to design is a pretty big stretch.  People have been thinking of places like Las Vegas, where change is constant -- nothing would ever get done by this standard.  From what I've heard, people are optimistic about the appeal, but with a ruling like this, who knows what'll happen now if the appeals court follows with this kind of crazy.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: 7/8 on March 06, 2023, 11:51:31 AM
Quote from: machias on February 21, 2023, 09:43:18 PM
I know this is set in stone but the "BL 81"  designation really bugs the hell out of me. If you don't want "81"  going through downtown, you don't get "81" , whether it's a green Interstate shield or a traditional Interstate marker. It should either go back to US 11 between the I-81/I-481 junctions or it should become two odd numbered 3di routes. The whole "BL 81"  label doesn't match anything else in New York State and could be misleading for the traveling public who's going to end up on a boulevard in the middle of the city. This is a whole "have your cake and eat it too"  situation for the viaduct cheerleaders and honestly it's deceiving.

I feel like this makes sense as a business loop. It connects to I-81 on both ends and provides access to businesses (restaurants, gas stations, etc.). Business loops are normally surface streets, so it doesn't seem deceiving to me.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on March 06, 2023, 11:56:30 AM
Quote from: 7/8 on March 06, 2023, 11:51:31 AM
Quote from: machias on February 21, 2023, 09:43:18 PM
I know this is set in stone but the "BL 81"  designation really bugs the hell out of me. If you don't want "81"  going through downtown, you don't get "81" , whether it's a green Interstate shield or a traditional Interstate marker. It should either go back to US 11 between the I-81/I-481 junctions or it should become two odd numbered 3di routes. The whole "BL 81"  label doesn't match anything else in New York State and could be misleading for the traveling public who's going to end up on a boulevard in the middle of the city. This is a whole "have your cake and eat it too"  situation for the viaduct cheerleaders and honestly it's deceiving.

I feel like this makes sense as a business loop. It connects to I-81 on both ends and provides access to businesses (restaurants, gas stations, etc.). Business loops are normally surface streets, so it doesn't seem deceiving to me.

Only a small portion of it would actually be a surface street, though. There will be minimal changes to the 8 mile stretch between downtown Syracuse and the northern I-481 junction, which will still function just as it does now, but with (presumably) a bit less through traffic.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on March 06, 2023, 12:10:46 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 06, 2023, 11:36:04 AM
Quote from: abqtraveler on March 06, 2023, 09:47:06 AM
Just found an article that a New York judge has blocked the removal of I-81 through downtown Syracuse, which is now being appealed by the State of New York and the City of Syracuse.

https://www.syracuse.com/news/2023/03/state-transportation-department-will-appeal-recent-court-ruling-on-i-81.html
Yeah, the original ruling was strange and this kind of "this part is okay, but this isn't" approach was unexpected.  The precedent that when you're off and running months after ROD and then have to go back to design is a pretty big stretch.  People have been thinking of places like Las Vegas, where change is constant -- nothing would ever get done by this standard.  From what I've heard, people are optimistic about the appeal, but with a ruling like this, who knows what'll happen now if the appeals court follows with this kind of crazy.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Cynical, but along the lines "it would collapse first": build up 481 and let elevated part deteriorate. Then close it as unsafe...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on March 06, 2023, 04:31:41 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 06, 2023, 12:16:05 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on March 06, 2023, 11:51:31 AM
Quote from: machias on February 21, 2023, 09:43:18 PM
I know this is set in stone but the "BL 81"  designation really bugs the hell out of me. If you don't want "81"  going through downtown, you don't get "81" , whether it's a green Interstate shield or a traditional Interstate marker. It should either go back to US 11 between the I-81/I-481 junctions or it should become two odd numbered 3di routes. The whole "BL 81"  label doesn't match anything else in New York State and could be misleading for the traveling public who's going to end up on a boulevard in the middle of the city. This is a whole "have your cake and eat it too"  situation for the viaduct cheerleaders and honestly it's deceiving.

I feel like this makes sense as a business loop. It connects to I-81 on both ends and provides access to businesses (restaurants, gas stations, etc.). Business loops are normally surface streets, so it doesn't seem deceiving to me.
Part of the problem is that "business loop" is something totally uncommon for northeast. As far as I can tell, there are none in NY, 2 in PA, one in NH, and maybe 2 in CT. It makes too little sense for most locals.

I'm still of the mindset it should be I-381 and I-581 with no number through downtown, much like I-185 and I-385 in Greenville, S.C. is not called BL 85.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on March 08, 2023, 08:24:43 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 06, 2023, 11:56:30 AM
Quote from: 7/8 on March 06, 2023, 11:51:31 AM
Quote from: machias on February 21, 2023, 09:43:18 PM
I know this is set in stone but the "BL 81"  designation really bugs the hell out of me. If you don't want "81"  going through downtown, you don't get "81" , whether it's a green Interstate shield or a traditional Interstate marker. It should either go back to US 11 between the I-81/I-481 junctions or it should become two odd numbered 3di routes. The whole "BL 81"  label doesn't match anything else in New York State and could be misleading for the traveling public who's going to end up on a boulevard in the middle of the city. This is a whole "have your cake and eat it too"  situation for the viaduct cheerleaders and honestly it's deceiving.

I feel like this makes sense as a business loop. It connects to I-81 on both ends and provides access to businesses (restaurants, gas stations, etc.). Business loops are normally surface streets, so it doesn't seem deceiving to me.

Only a small portion of it would actually be a surface street, though. There will be minimal changes to the 8 mile stretch between downtown Syracuse ~6 miles between DestinyUSA and the northern I-481 junction, which will still function just as it does now, but with (presumably) a bit less through traffic.

FTFY...the project includes a full rebuild between 690 and the Onondaga Lake Pkwy exit including realigning and relocating several of the ramps along that stretch.

Though you're correct it will still fundamentally function as it currently does.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on March 16, 2023, 08:38:22 AM
A draft of the new exit numbers for I-81 (PA to Canada) seems to be making its way around NYSDOT.  Looks like directional suffixes will be replaced with alphabetical ones, per the MUTCD.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on March 16, 2023, 01:25:52 PM
Do you have a link to the future Interstate 81 mileage-based exit numbers?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Ted$8roadFan on June 04, 2023, 11:11:43 AM
Article on I-81 controversy in today's NY Times (may be paywalled).

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwikut6N86n_AhVljokEHbkXDI0QFnoECDwQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2023%2F06%2F03%2Fnyregion%2Fsyracuse-interstate-81.html&usg=AOvVaw186VA62IQz_lNL_8WGPBbx
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: DJStephens on June 04, 2023, 11:33:41 AM
Was able to access article.  Not paywalled.  Light on engineering specifics and construction updates.  No maps.   Obviously written by someone without an construction/engineering background.   
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on June 04, 2023, 11:55:48 AM


Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on June 04, 2023, 11:11:43 AM
Article on I-81 controversy in today's NY Times (may be paywalled).

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwikut6N86n_AhVljokEHbkXDI0QFnoECDwQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2023%2F06%2F03%2Fnyregion%2Fsyracuse-interstate-81.html&usg=AOvVaw186VA62IQz_lNL_8WGPBbx

Heh.  It's a State project, not a City of Syracuse project.  The fact they focused on Joe Driscoll and considered him the project director is probably creating a lot of snickers at NYSDOT.  "Yeah, we'll let them think that and take a break from the press..."

Then again, the City isn't being sued since it's not their project, so more power to Joe for participating in the article.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on June 04, 2023, 12:10:12 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 04, 2023, 11:55:48 AM


Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on June 04, 2023, 11:11:43 AM
Article on I-81 controversy in today's NY Times (may be paywalled).

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwikut6N86n_AhVljokEHbkXDI0QFnoECDwQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2023%2F06%2F03%2Fnyregion%2Fsyracuse-interstate-81.html&usg=AOvVaw186VA62IQz_lNL_8WGPBbx

Heh.  It's a State project, not a City of Syracuse project.  The fact they focused on Joe Driscoll and considered him the project director is probably creating a lot of snickers at NYSDOT.  "Yeah, we'll let them think that and take a break from the press..."

Then again, the City isn't being sued since it's not their project, so more power to Joe for participating in the article.
SO much for NYT proclaimed fact-checking of their writeups.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on June 04, 2023, 03:18:36 PM
I think it's annoying when people compare apples and oranges with freeway removal projects.  Syracuse is a true freeway removal of a major interstate.  Rochester removed a lightly traveled route that was close to I-490, so access didn't really change at all (especially since the only way to get to it from the east side was to drive around the other side or use local streets anyways).  Denver and Boston buried their interstates rather than remove them.  Yet the article (and many urban activists, as well) treats them as if they're all the same.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on June 04, 2023, 06:21:15 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 04, 2023, 03:18:36 PM
I think it's annoying when people compare apples and oranges with freeway removal projects.  Syracuse is a true freeway removal of a major interstate.  Rochester removed a lightly traveled route that was close to I-490, so access didn't really change at all (especially since the only way to get to it from the east side was to drive around the other side or use local streets anyways).  Denver and Boston buried their interstates rather than remove them.  Yet the article (and many urban activists, as well) treats them as if they're all the same.
Common propagandist approaches - present significantly different things as similar when needed, focus on minor differences otherwise. Ol'good ends justifies the means thing.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: silverback1065 on June 04, 2023, 07:45:20 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 04, 2023, 03:18:36 PM
I think it's annoying when people compare apples and oranges with freeway removal projects.  Syracuse is a true freeway removal of a major interstate.  Rochester removed a lightly traveled route that was close to I-490, so access didn't really change at all (especially since the only way to get to it from the east side was to drive around the other side or use local streets anyways).  Denver and Boston buried their interstates rather than remove them.  Yet the article (and many urban activists, as well) treats them as if they're all the same.

that's why I completely ignore any media stories on freeways. its always a mess of propaganda and incorrect statements.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 18, 2023, 04:12:55 PM
There is a recent story on the Interstate 81 reconstruction plan at the sycacuse.com website: https://www.syracuse.com/news/2023/07/new-york-starts-225-billion-interstate-81-rebuild-despite-court-challenges.html. However, the text in the second paragraph disappears into a paywall. Can someone help me out to see all the words to the story? I'd really appreciate it since I am the one who started this thread in the first place (I have a great deal of interest in this project, even though I've never been to Syracuse or the state of New York).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: zzcarp on July 18, 2023, 05:47:14 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 18, 2023, 04:12:55 PM
There is a recent story on the Interstate 81 reconstruction plan at the sycacuse.com website: https://www.syracuse.com/news/2023/07/new-york-starts-225-billion-interstate-81-rebuild-despite-court-challenges.html. However, the text in the second paragraph disappears into a paywall. Can someone help me out to see all the words to the story? I'd really appreciate it since I am the one who started this thread in the first place (I have a great deal of interest in this project, even though I've never been to Syracuse or the state of New York).

Try this link (https://archive.ph/ezMF8).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 18, 2023, 05:51:08 PM
Quote from: zzcarp on July 18, 2023, 05:47:14 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 18, 2023, 04:12:55 PM
There is a recent story on the Interstate 81 reconstruction plan at the sycacuse.com website: https://www.syracuse.com/news/2023/07/new-york-starts-225-billion-interstate-81-rebuild-despite-court-challenges.html. However, the text in the second paragraph disappears into a paywall. Can someone help me out to see all the words to the story? I'd really appreciate it since I am the one who started this thread in the first place (I have a great deal of interest in this project, even though I've never been to Syracuse or the state of New York).

Try this link (https://archive.ph/ezMF8).
The text of the article is not as charged as the headline.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 18, 2023, 06:13:51 PM
Thank you very much, Rothman!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: silverback1065 on July 19, 2023, 08:05:59 AM
link didn't work for me, what was the jist of the article?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: ixnay on July 19, 2023, 08:14:08 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 18, 2023, 04:12:55 PMI have a great deal of interest in this project, even though I've never been to Syracuse or the state of New York.

What, then, piqued your interest?  Did Milwaukee undertake a similar project? (you say you're from Wisconsin in your profile)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on July 19, 2023, 08:18:35 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 19, 2023, 08:05:59 AM
link didn't work for me, what was the jist of the article?
Work on 481 have started despite ongoing legal situation. Not too much fanfare at this point, maybe ceremony when the viaduct is closed for demolition.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 19, 2023, 08:18:57 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 19, 2023, 08:05:59 AM
link didn't work for me, what was the jist of the article?
Just that NYSDOT is moving forward with the aspects of the project not affected by the lawsuits -- which means any of those activities that are not directly related to the removal of the viaduct.  This includes mainly the northern interchange between I-81/I-481/NY 481 at this point.  Article states that NYSDOT has not had a groundbreaking or fanfare regarding the construction work that is underway and that $29m has been spent on the project already.

To which I say, I'm sure there'll be a groundbreaking when schedules of the politicians align and they feel it's an appropriate time or whatnot.  Which, makes me wonder who the saavy political schemer was that nudged Syracuse.com to point out one hasn't happened yet...Ah, NY.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on July 19, 2023, 09:09:23 PM
I don't get the fuss. Syracuse has no freeways in its limits at all. It does have this cool truss though: https://goo.gl/maps/RHohfoBNZNJjcKSj8
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on July 19, 2023, 09:15:38 PM
Quote from: Alps on July 19, 2023, 09:09:23 PM
I don't get the fuss. Syracuse has no freeways in its limits at all. It does have this cool truss though: https://goo.gl/maps/RHohfoBNZNJjcKSj8
Welcome to New York, home of Syracuse, Ithaca, Troy, Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Poland.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on July 20, 2023, 09:09:22 AM
I'm suddenly having Augusta Bay (https://www.google.com/maps/place/NATO+Pier+Augusta/@37.1877781,15.1912997,878m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x13115dcc10685735:0x41aa8a23493a6a4f!2sNaval+Air+Station+Sigonella!8m2!3d37.4081248!4d14.9112368!16zL20vMDNtaDlu!3m5!1s0x1313daec8094d917:0x4f61aea260088072!8m2!3d37.1857711!4d15.1899679!16s%2Fg%2F11c0qgklsj?entry=ttu) flashbacks...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: davewiecking on July 20, 2023, 10:01:05 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 19, 2023, 08:05:59 AM
link didn't work for me, what was the jist of the article?

At the risk of bringing this discussion back to New York State, here are a few bits of the article:
QuoteThe state said the inability to work on contract procurement, design or construction of the viaduct would put the entire project schedule at risk of costing tens of millions of dollars.
In court papers, Jeffrey Moryl, director of the DOT's project management office, laid out the inconvenience to the department and cost to taxpayers.
First, he said, the state would forfeit the $29 million it has already paid for work on the first contract. That includes preparing the area for construction by removing noise barriers, removing existing utilities, establishing work zone traffic controls and building staging areas.
The state would also have to pay for millions of dollars in infrastructure that has been ordered, but not yet paid for. These costs total $24.3 million and include 1,700 precast retaining wall units, steel for five bridges, materials for two large culverts and one precast bridge, and a custom GPS system for construction.
There would also be a cost of $50,000 to $100,000 per month to extend quality assurance and inspection contracts, he said.
Delaying the project also affects the workforce. The contractors have already hired 49 construction workers from the Syracuse area, he said.
It would also be harmful to the people who live near the northern exchange where work has begun because they have already removed noise barriers, he said.
...
Betsy Parmley, the engineer in charge of the project, said she cannot discuss the lawsuit.
She did talk about the work that has begun at the northern interchange.
Preliminary site work is already visible to commuters and neighbors. In late July, drivers will start to see heavier construction, she said.
The plan is to redesign the interchange so drivers can connect from I-81 to I-481 at 65 mph rather than the slow off ramps that exist now, she said.
...
The DOT does plan to host an official groundbreaking at some point, most likely when it is time to tear down the viaduct in Syracuse, she said.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 20, 2023, 01:58:45 PM
Wrong Syracuse, Alps! That one is in Sicily. Or was that the point?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 20, 2023, 02:13:03 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 20, 2023, 01:58:45 PM
Wrong Syracuse, Alps! That one is in Sicily. Or was that the point?
Well, it certainly was the joke...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 21, 2023, 01:13:30 PM
Got invited to and attended the I-81 Viaduct Project groundbreaking today.  Gov. Hochul, Sens. Schumer and Gillibrand, Lanessa Owens-Chaplin of NY Civil Liberties Union and Former Mayor of New Orleans Mitch Landrieu, White House Coordinator of the IIJA all spoke.  Pretty standard stuff on reconnecting the community, fighting racism, and creating local, unionized jobs.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Duke87 on July 22, 2023, 01:01:32 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 21, 2023, 01:13:30 PM
Got invited to and attended the I-81 Viaduct Project groundbreaking today.  Gov. Hochul, Sens. Schumer and Gillibrand, Lanessa Owens-Chaplin of NY Civil Liberties Union and Former Mayor of New Orleans Mitch Landrieu, White House Coordinator of the IIJA all spoke.  Pretty standard stuff on reconnecting the community, fighting racism, and creating local, unionized jobs.

Sorry you had to sit through that.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 22, 2023, 10:14:22 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on July 22, 2023, 01:01:32 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 21, 2023, 01:13:30 PM
Got invited to and attended the I-81 Viaduct Project groundbreaking today.  Gov. Hochul, Sens. Schumer and Gillibrand, Lanessa Owens-Chaplin of NY Civil Liberties Union and Former Mayor of New Orleans Mitch Landrieu, White House Coordinator of the IIJA all spoke.  Pretty standard stuff on reconnecting the community, fighting racism, and creating local, unionized jobs.

Sorry you had to sit through that.
Why?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on July 24, 2023, 08:52:38 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 22, 2023, 10:14:22 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on July 22, 2023, 01:01:32 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 21, 2023, 01:13:30 PM
Got invited to and attended the I-81 Viaduct Project groundbreaking today.  Gov. Hochul, Sens. Schumer and Gillibrand, Lanessa Owens-Chaplin of NY Civil Liberties Union and Former Mayor of New Orleans Mitch Landrieu, White House Coordinator of the IIJA all spoke.  Pretty standard stuff on reconnecting the community, fighting racism, and creating local, unionized jobs.

Sorry you had to sit through that.
Why?
IMO it'd be because this project is fucking stupid.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on July 24, 2023, 08:58:11 PM
At any rate, here is an article about this: https://www.fingerlakesdailynews.com/regional-state-congressional/state-breaks-ground-on-syracuse-i-81-viaduct-project
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 25, 2023, 12:14:52 AM


Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 24, 2023, 08:52:38 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 22, 2023, 10:14:22 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on July 22, 2023, 01:01:32 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 21, 2023, 01:13:30 PM
Got invited to and attended the I-81 Viaduct Project groundbreaking today.  Gov. Hochul, Sens. Schumer and Gillibrand, Lanessa Owens-Chaplin of NY Civil Liberties Union and Former Mayor of New Orleans Mitch Landrieu, White House Coordinator of the IIJA all spoke.  Pretty standard stuff on reconnecting the community, fighting racism, and creating local, unionized jobs.

Sorry you had to sit through that.
Why?
IMO it'd be because this project is fucking stupid.

I'm still shaking my head at or mildly amused by roadgeeks that repeat criticisms that blatantly don't take all the characteristics of the project into account, which means they can be ignored.

I'm also amused by the fact that there have been so few roadgeeks that have actually looked into the details of the project and noted the actual remaining more troublesome aspects of it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on July 25, 2023, 01:36:31 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 25, 2023, 12:14:52 AM


Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 24, 2023, 08:52:38 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 22, 2023, 10:14:22 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on July 22, 2023, 01:01:32 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 21, 2023, 01:13:30 PM
Got invited to and attended the I-81 Viaduct Project groundbreaking today.  Gov. Hochul, Sens. Schumer and Gillibrand, Lanessa Owens-Chaplin of NY Civil Liberties Union and Former Mayor of New Orleans Mitch Landrieu, White House Coordinator of the IIJA all spoke.  Pretty standard stuff on reconnecting the community, fighting racism, and creating local, unionized jobs.

Sorry you had to sit through that.
Why?
IMO it'd be because this project is fucking stupid.

I'm still shaking my head at or mildly amused by roadgeeks that repeat criticisms that blatantly don't take all the characteristics of the project into account, which means they can be ignored.

I'm also amused by the fact that there have been so few roadgeeks that have actually looked into the details of the project and noted the actual remaining more troublesome aspects of it.
And again, I'm still amazed that Alabama can build such a much more massive road elevated through their downtown and one of their biggest cities yet New York can't even build an at grade Boulevard replacing the freeway for less. So if we're already spending this amount of money, we might as well go big, or go home, and either rebuild a thing as it is, or at least build it to where the portals can be constructed in the future, when, and if Syracuse ever starts becoming a bigger city.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 25, 2023, 07:02:36 AM


Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 25, 2023, 01:36:31 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 25, 2023, 12:14:52 AM


Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 24, 2023, 08:52:38 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 22, 2023, 10:14:22 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on July 22, 2023, 01:01:32 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 21, 2023, 01:13:30 PM
Got invited to and attended the I-81 Viaduct Project groundbreaking today.  Gov. Hochul, Sens. Schumer and Gillibrand, Lanessa Owens-Chaplin of NY Civil Liberties Union and Former Mayor of New Orleans Mitch Landrieu, White House Coordinator of the IIJA all spoke.  Pretty standard stuff on reconnecting the community, fighting racism, and creating local, unionized jobs.

Sorry you had to sit through that.
Why?
IMO it'd be because this project is fucking stupid.

I'm still shaking my head at or mildly amused by roadgeeks that repeat criticisms that blatantly don't take all the characteristics of the project into account, which means they can be ignored.

I'm also amused by the fact that there have been so few roadgeeks that have actually looked into the details of the project and noted the actual remaining more troublesome aspects of it.
And again, I'm still amazed that Alabama can build such a much more massive road elevated through their downtown and one of their biggest cities yet New York can't even build an at grade Boulevard replacing the freeway for less. So if we're already spending this amount of money, we might as well go big, or go home, and either rebuild a thing as it is, or at least build it to where the portals can be constructed in the future, when, and if Syracuse ever starts becoming a bigger city.

And, to that, I only have to refer you to the post you quoted therein.  If you can't see the difference between the two projects, you haven't educated yourself properly, especially at this point, where the reasons behind why the replacement was so expensive has been explained by NYSDOT and on this forum ad nauseam.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: silverback1065 on July 25, 2023, 08:15:43 AM
it is extremely unlikely that syracuse will get any bigger. and having 81 go through downtown was dubious even when they proposed it originally. the people who think routing 81 around the city will make traffic terrible are crazy, when this project is completed you'll likely see no traffic issues at all in the area. not all downtown freeways needed/need to exist.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on July 25, 2023, 08:24:45 AM
I have no problem with the elimination considering it's part of another must do project. If, let's say, they eliminated the viaduct for the sake of eliminating the viaduct, I would say it's unworthy of a move.


Plus the freeway revolt is getting overrated anyhow.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on July 25, 2023, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 25, 2023, 07:02:36 AM


Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 25, 2023, 01:36:31 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 25, 2023, 12:14:52 AM


Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 24, 2023, 08:52:38 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 22, 2023, 10:14:22 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on July 22, 2023, 01:01:32 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 21, 2023, 01:13:30 PM
Got invited to and attended the I-81 Viaduct Project groundbreaking today.  Gov. Hochul, Sens. Schumer and Gillibrand, Lanessa Owens-Chaplin of NY Civil Liberties Union and Former Mayor of New Orleans Mitch Landrieu, White House Coordinator of the IIJA all spoke.  Pretty standard stuff on reconnecting the community, fighting racism, and creating local, unionized jobs.

Sorry you had to sit through that.
Why?
IMO it'd be because this project is fucking stupid.

I'm still shaking my head at or mildly amused by roadgeeks that repeat criticisms that blatantly don't take all the characteristics of the project into account, which means they can be ignored.

I'm also amused by the fact that there have been so few roadgeeks that have actually looked into the details of the project and noted the actual remaining more troublesome aspects of it.
And again, I'm still amazed that Alabama can build such a much more massive road elevated through their downtown and one of their biggest cities yet New York can't even build an at grade Boulevard replacing the freeway for less. So if we're already spending this amount of money, we might as well go big, or go home, and either rebuild a thing as it is, or at least build it to where the portals can be constructed in the future, when, and if Syracuse ever starts becoming a bigger city.

And, to that, I only have to refer you to the post you quoted therein.  If you can't see the difference between the two projects, you haven't educated yourself properly, especially at this point, where the reasons behind why the replacement was so expensive has been explained by NYSDOT and on this forum ad nauseam.
I get it you're just obsessed with this project and responding to any and everyone telling them why they're wrong when they criticize it. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on July 25, 2023, 11:08:28 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 25, 2023, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 25, 2023, 07:02:36 AM


I get it you're just obsessed with this project and responding to any and everyone telling them why they're wrong when they criticize it. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.
Not to defend Rothman (not that he needs that anyway) - but you may have noticed that the local gang who knows the area came to some sort of agreement. It's a small portion of traffic which would really suffer; and I-81 reroute is the least of all evils given the overall situation. It wouldn't help depressed area, but I don't see anything that really would.
People living in a very different environment far away from project area are certainly allowed to have their own perspective - but looks like some are missing on the realities in the project  and area specifics.   
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on July 25, 2023, 11:13:45 AM
The only thing I find concerning about this project is the decision to go with BL 81 instead of a couple of 3-digit interstate numbers (one each into downtown from the current 481 interchanges).  Both interchanges will have "Route 81" intersecting with "Route 81" which motorists may find confusing. That area of New York State tends to call everything "Route".

There's also a bunch of poor sign designs on the plans I've seen but I'm really hopeful I didn't see the version of the plans that are actually going to be used to fabricate the signs.  (One example, a post interchange sign with I-90/Thruway the destination and a mileage of "5.5")

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on July 25, 2023, 11:17:27 AM
It'd also be nice to see the freeway from current I-81 Exit 16A northwest to the NY 5 freeway stub at Genesee Street on future plans somewhere, but we all know that's never going to happen. (I clearly remember discussions about that in the 80s). That would definitely help with traffic concerns for traffic on that side of the city.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 25, 2023, 11:20:28 AM
Quote from: machias on July 25, 2023, 11:13:45 AM
The only thing I find concerning about this project is the decision to go with BL 81 instead of a couple of 3-digit interstate numbers (one each into downtown from the current 481 interchanges).  Both interchanges will have "Route 81" intersecting with "Route 81" which motorists may find confusing. That area of New York State tends to call everything "Route".

There's also a bunch of poor sign designs on the plans I've seen but I'm really hopeful I didn't see the version of the plans that are actually going to be used to fabricate the signs.  (One example, a post interchange sign with I-90/Thruway the destination and a mileage of "5.5")
That's more like it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on July 25, 2023, 11:23:03 AM
Quote from: kalvado on July 25, 2023, 11:08:28 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 25, 2023, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 25, 2023, 07:02:36 AM


I get it you're just obsessed with this project and responding to any and everyone telling them why they're wrong when they criticize it. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.
Not to defend Rothman (not that he needs that anyway) - but you may have noticed that the local gang who knows the area came to some sort of agreement. It's a small portion of traffic which would really suffer; and I-81 reroute is the least of all evils given the overall situation. It wouldn't help depressed area, but I don't see anything that really would.
People living in a very different environment far away from project area are certainly allowed to have their own perspective - but looks like some are missing on the realities in the project  and area specifics.
I try to tend and think long term. But nowadays you got people who are certain Syracuse won't ever grow or that it's a waste of land space preserving ROW for future infrastructure needed for tunnels even though that space can temporarily be activated in other areas until the time calls.

There's also something to be said that we can't learn lessons from Alabama and just have to completely alienate them as there is no way New York could ever find a way to reduce infrastructure costs and I must be claiming that they could do it here for the same cost as down south just because I mentioned them as a case study. It's a my way or the highway type shit. Rothman is just completely obsessed with responding to EVERY damned comment that mentions this project in a way he doesn't like as if he has personal investment in it himself.

It's kinda funny but annoying at the same time. That isn't a rational person when it comes to this particular subject.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 25, 2023, 11:27:55 AM
Quote from: machias on July 25, 2023, 11:17:27 AM
It'd also be nice to see the freeway from current I-81 Exit 16A northwest to the NY 5 freeway stub at Genesee Street on future plans somewhere, but we all know that's never going to happen. (I clearly remember discussions about that in the 80s). That would definitely help with traffic concerns for traffic on that side of the city.
The traffic movement from the south to the west and vice versa is definitely still a concern.  So far, the official response is, "Going around will take just a few more minutes, especially when I-690 is brought up to standard as part of this project."  Not the greatest consolation, but the pro of reconnecting the Hill with Downtown is supposed to outweigh the con.

That said, any proposal for I-481 to become like SLC's I-215 is a nonstarter due to the terrain, development and entrenched NIMBYs that like the suburban/rural feel of the area. I have an old map in my office that shows that even in the ancient times of just plowing highways through anywhere, the NY 5 freeway was proposed to end at the Zoo.

Sharing photos is such a pain on here, but I'll see if I can upload one of the map.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on July 25, 2023, 11:28:34 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 25, 2023, 11:23:03 AM
Quote from: kalvado on July 25, 2023, 11:08:28 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 25, 2023, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 25, 2023, 07:02:36 AM


I get it you're just obsessed with this project and responding to any and everyone telling them why they're wrong when they criticize it. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.
Not to defend Rothman (not that he needs that anyway) - but you may have noticed that the local gang who knows the area came to some sort of agreement. It's a small portion of traffic which would really suffer; and I-81 reroute is the least of all evils given the overall situation. It wouldn't help depressed area, but I don't see anything that really would.
People living in a very different environment far away from project area are certainly allowed to have their own perspective - but looks like some are missing on the realities in the project  and area specifics.
I try to tend and think long term. But nowadays you got people who are certain Syracuse won't ever grow or that it's a waste of land space preserving ROW for future infrastructure needed for tunnels even though that space can temporarily be activated in other areas until the time calls.

There's also something to be said that we can't learn lessons from Alabama and just have to completely alienate them as there is no way New York could ever find a way to reduce infrastructure costs and I must be claiming that they could do it here for the same cost as down south just because I mentioned them as a case study. It's a my way or the highway type shit. Rothman is just completely obsessed with responding to EVERY damned comment that mentions this project in a way he doesn't like as if he has personal investment in it himself.

It's kinda funny but annoying at the same time. That isn't a rational person when it comes to this particular subject.
I assume once you say "tunnel", you may safely remove your name from the list of rational people anyway.
Costs are indeed high in NY. I don't see how things can be changed without another civil war or two, though.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 25, 2023, 11:32:10 AM


Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 25, 2023, 11:23:03 AM
Quote from: kalvado on July 25, 2023, 11:08:28 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 25, 2023, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 25, 2023, 07:02:36 AM


I get it you're just obsessed with this project and responding to any and everyone telling them why they're wrong when they criticize it. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.
Not to defend Rothman (not that he needs that anyway) - but you may have noticed that the local gang who knows the area came to some sort of agreement. It's a small portion of traffic which would really suffer; and I-81 reroute is the least of all evils given the overall situation. It wouldn't help depressed area, but I don't see anything that really would.
People living in a very different environment far away from project area are certainly allowed to have their own perspective - but looks like some are missing on the realities in the project  and area specifics.
I try to tend and think long term. But nowadays you got people who are certain Syracuse won't ever grow or that it's a waste of land space preserving ROW for future infrastructure needed for tunnels even though that space can temporarily be activated in other areas until the time calls.

There's also something to be said that we can't learn lessons from Alabama and just have to completely alienate them as there is no way New York could ever find a way to reduce infrastructure costs and I must be claiming that they could do it here for the same cost as down south just because I mentioned them as a case study. It's a my way or the highway type shit. Rothman is just completely obsessed with responding to EVERY damned comment that mentions this project in a way he doesn't like as if he has personal investment in it himself.

It's kinda funny but annoying at the same time. That isn't a rational person when it comes to this particular subject.

My comments and rebuttals to your assertions have been based upon the details of the project, the associated traffic analyses that have been done and knowledge of the area (i.e., why preserving area in downtown Syracuse for tunnel portals is, well, just absurd).

Lack of reason is indicated by lack of attention to actual detail.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on July 25, 2023, 12:11:23 PM
Long-term planning is not absurd.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on July 25, 2023, 12:21:57 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on July 25, 2023, 12:11:23 PM
Long-term planning is not absurd.
Poiponen13 approves this message.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on July 25, 2023, 12:57:36 PM
Quote from: machias on July 25, 2023, 11:13:45 AM
The only thing I find concerning about this project is the decision to go with BL 81 instead of a couple of 3-digit interstate numbers (one each into downtown from the current 481 interchanges).  Both interchanges will have "Route 81" intersecting with "Route 81" which motorists may find confusing. That area of New York State tends to call everything "Route".

There's also a bunch of poor sign designs on the plans I've seen but I'm really hopeful I didn't see the version of the plans that are actually going to be used to fabricate the signs.  (One example, a post interchange sign with I-90/Thruway the destination and a mileage of "5.5")


That's my issue as well.  I don't think the southern freeway needs an interstate number, but it would have been nice to have the northern freeway an interstate with the rest a state route, in typical NY fashion.  However, I understand that doing so would have cost more (likely because of the I-690 interchange; FHWA frowns on incomplete interstate/interstate junctions these days) per the FEIS.  That said, there's still no reason it couldn't all be "NYS Route 681" or something.

(personal opinion)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 25, 2023, 01:05:44 PM
I know that when Interstate 81 is rerouted onto Interstate 481's corridor, both Interstate 81's and Interstate (and hopefully NY) 690's exit will be renumbered to mileage-based. I have not heard what will become of future Business 81's and NY 481's exit numbers. I would imagine they also be renumbered to mileage-based, since I don't think either Business 81's or NY 481's exit numbers should either be de-numbered or left with their existing numbers.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cockroachking on July 25, 2023, 02:16:21 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 25, 2023, 01:05:44 PM
I know that when Interstate 81 is rerouted onto Interstate 481's corridor, both Interstate 81's and Interstate (and hopefully NY) 690's exit will be renumbered to mileage-based. I have not heard what will become of future Business 81's and NY 481's exit numbers. I would imagine they also be renumbered to mileage-based, since I don't think either Business 81's or NY 481's exit numbers should either be de-numbered or left with their existing numbers.
Everything within project limits is going mile-based according to the RFP plans for Contracts 1 and 2. Of course, these signing plans are littered with mistakes, so who knows what will actually happen.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: silverback1065 on July 25, 2023, 02:37:17 PM
throw US 11 onto the stubs. problem solved.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on July 25, 2023, 08:02:17 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 25, 2023, 02:37:17 PM
throw US 11 onto the stubs. problem solved.

I think it was originally US 11 so that'd be fun.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on July 25, 2023, 08:04:09 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 25, 2023, 01:05:44 PM
I know that when Interstate 81 is rerouted onto Interstate 481's corridor, both Interstate 81's and Interstate (and hopefully NY) 690's exit will be renumbered to mileage-based. I have not heard what will become of future Business 81's and NY 481's exit numbers. I would imagine they also be renumbered to mileage-based, since I don't think either Business 81's or NY 481's exit numbers should either be de-numbered or left with their existing numbers.

It's my understanding that all Interstate routes in NYSDOT Region 3 will have mileage based interchange numbers when this project is complete, and that NY Route 481 and 690 will have mileage based numbers as well.  While they're at it I'd love to see mileage based numbers on the NY Route 5 freeway (but not based on the current mileposts which are wrong because they're based on the wrong western terminus), but that probably won't happen.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on July 25, 2023, 08:05:43 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 25, 2023, 12:57:36 PM
Quote from: machias on July 25, 2023, 11:13:45 AM
The only thing I find concerning about this project is the decision to go with BL 81 instead of a couple of 3-digit interstate numbers (one each into downtown from the current 481 interchanges).  Both interchanges will have "Route 81" intersecting with "Route 81" which motorists may find confusing. That area of New York State tends to call everything "Route".

There's also a bunch of poor sign designs on the plans I've seen but I'm really hopeful I didn't see the version of the plans that are actually going to be used to fabricate the signs.  (One example, a post interchange sign with I-90/Thruway the destination and a mileage of "5.5")


That's my issue as well.  I don't think the southern freeway needs an interstate number, but it would have been nice to have the northern freeway an interstate with the rest a state route, in typical NY fashion.  However, I understand that doing so would have cost more (likely because of the I-690 interchange; FHWA frowns on incomplete interstate/interstate junctions these days) per the FEIS.  That said, there's still no reason it couldn't all be "NYS Route 681" or something.

(personal opinion)

I kind of wonder why they didn't do a swap and route NY 481 down the northern end of BL 81.  I-81 and NY 481 could bump each other at current Exit 29.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on July 25, 2023, 08:47:50 PM
Incidentally I took another look at the signage for contracts 1 and 2 and found a few interesting anomalies.  SB "former exit 16A" should be "former exit 1".  SB "87 A-B" should just be 87, since the ramp won't split.  There's also a BL 81 mile 90 marker included for some reason...

I see it keeps Thruway exit 36 as Watertown/Binghamton, but it also notes "existing panel to remain".  Perhaps temporary until the Thruway can do a proper replacement?  Interestingly, nothing appears for 34A at all.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 25, 2023, 10:27:10 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 25, 2023, 11:27:55 AM
Quote from: machias on July 25, 2023, 11:17:27 AM
It'd also be nice to see the freeway from current I-81 Exit 16A northwest to the NY 5 freeway stub at Genesee Street on future plans somewhere, but we all know that's never going to happen. (I clearly remember discussions about that in the 80s). That would definitely help with traffic concerns for traffic on that side of the city.
The traffic movement from the south to the west and vice versa is definitely still a concern.  So far, the official response is, "Going around will take just a few more minutes, especially when I-690 is brought up to standard as part of this project."  Not the greatest consolation, but the pro of reconnecting the Hill with Downtown is supposed to outweigh the con.

That said, any proposal for I-481 to become like SLC's I-215 is a nonstarter due to the terrain, development and entrenched NIMBYs that like the suburban/rural feel of the area. I have an old map in my office that shows that even in the ancient times of just plowing highways through anywhere, the NY 5 freeway was proposed to end at the Zoo.

Sharing photos is such a pain on here, but I'll see if I can upload one of the map.

Here we go.  Look closely for the thin, dashed black line.  It actually goes all the way to West Street.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53072282083_b60e2705e4_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oRPjsg)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on July 25, 2023, 11:55:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 25, 2023, 08:47:50 PM
Incidentally I took another look at the signage for contracts 1 and 2 and found a few interesting anomalies.  SB "former exit 16A" should be "former exit 1".  SB "87 A-B" should just be 87, since the ramp won't split.  There's also a BL 81 mile 90 marker included for some reason...

I see it keeps Thruway exit 36 as Watertown/Binghamton, but it also notes "existing panel to remain".  Perhaps temporary until the Thruway can do a proper replacement?  Interestingly, nothing appears for 34A at all.

I'm really hoping these plans are not the final plans because there's a lot of mistakes in there, including some panels with some bad layouts. I can't imagine these are the plans the contractors are working off of.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 26, 2023, 12:01:43 AM
Quote from: machias on July 25, 2023, 11:55:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 25, 2023, 08:47:50 PM
Incidentally I took another look at the signage for contracts 1 and 2 and found a few interesting anomalies.  SB "former exit 16A" should be "former exit 1".  SB "87 A-B" should just be 87, since the ramp won't split.  There's also a BL 81 mile 90 marker included for some reason...

I see it keeps Thruway exit 36 as Watertown/Binghamton, but it also notes "existing panel to remain".  Perhaps temporary until the Thruway can do a proper replacement?  Interestingly, nothing appears for 34A at all.

I'm really hoping these plans are not the final plans because there's a lot of mistakes in there, including some panels with some bad layouts. I can't imagine these are the plans the contractors are working off of.
You'd be surprised.  State's been rushing to get the contracts out to construction.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Flyer78 on July 26, 2023, 11:41:31 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 25, 2023, 10:27:10 PM


Here we go.  Look closely for the thin, dashed black line.  It actually goes all the way to West Street.

(image snipped)

Very cool to see this! I grew up in the area, always wondered what the "next phase" of the bypass could look like, beyond the direct access to Wegmans and space for their employees to park.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on July 26, 2023, 11:51:19 AM
Quote from: Flyer78 on July 26, 2023, 11:41:31 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 25, 2023, 10:27:10 PM


Here we go.  Look closely for the thin, dashed black line.  It actually goes all the way to West Street.

(image snipped)

Very cool to see this! I grew up in the area, always wondered what the "next phase" of the bypass could look like, beyond the direct access to Wegmans and space for their employees to park.
It's a huge map and has a lot of fun old stuff on it, including a weird proposal for NY 298 to head out on a totally new alignment out to Chittenango Creek from I-481 to east of Bridgeport.

It also shows the original configuration of the I-690/Thruway interchange, with the traffic light on I-690.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on August 07, 2023, 08:09:48 PM
I see contract #3 (preliminary version) is up for modifications to several bridges near Downtown on future BL-81.

https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/pls/portal/MEXIS_APP.BC_CONST_LETTING_ADMIN.VIEWFILE?p_file_id=19899

With plans
https://www.dot.ny.gov/doing-business/opportunities/const-contract-docs?p_d_id=D265065
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 07, 2023, 08:34:13 PM
"Business Loop Entrance (https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/pls/portal/MEXIS_APP.BC_CONST_NOTICE_ADMIN.VIEWFILE?p_file_id=42018&p_is_digital=Y)" (page 399) - wouldn't "freeway entrance" be appropriate given that the portion north of I-690 will be remaining a freeway?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Henry on August 07, 2023, 10:08:09 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 07, 2023, 08:34:13 PM
"Business Loop Entrance (https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/pls/portal/MEXIS_APP.BC_CONST_NOTICE_ADMIN.VIEWFILE?p_file_id=42018&p_is_digital=Y)" (page 399) - wouldn't "freeway entrance" be appropriate given that the portion north of I-690 will be remaining a freeway?
I was thinking the exact same thing! While it may become BL 81 in the future, it'll still remain a freeway. (Speaking of which, I would've made this portion I-181 and the southern part NY 181. Given that the latter designation hasn't been in use for 60 years, not only would it be a 3di extension, but give the route some continuity through the city.)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on August 07, 2023, 11:29:03 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 07, 2023, 08:34:13 PM
"Business Loop Entrance (https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/pls/portal/MEXIS_APP.BC_CONST_NOTICE_ADMIN.VIEWFILE?p_file_id=42018&p_is_digital=Y)" (page 399) - wouldn't "freeway entrance" be appropriate given that the portion north of I-690 will be remaining a freeway?

I found the US 298 markers on sheet 426 interesting.
Sheet 430 has a BGS that will be overlayed the existing, which seems odd.
The scattered 81I reference markers are interesting as well, since I assumed the route number would be changed to 81BL
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cl94 on August 08, 2023, 12:27:14 AM
I'm still waiting for the land speculators to start buying up land near I-81 with hopes of making a fortune when land values increase. Because they will if it's as successful as is hoped.

Unlike a lot of the road community, my criticism of the project isn't with removing the freeway. It's that the entire neighborhood is gonna gentrify and force out the people the politicians claim it's going to help.  That's right, my criticisms of this are from the left! There's a reason freeway removals only happen when developers are salivating over an area, and it's not because people feel sorry for the residents. It's because people see dollar signs and a chance to make a buck.

Nearly every time a major infrastructure project to improve "quality of life" occurs, property values increase if it is successful. Simple economics there, as property values are highly correlated with a location's desirability. Since most of the people who live nearby are renters and not property owners, they're the ones who suffer. People live where they can afford, and if rents in that neighborhood increase, the current residents will end up moving if their income remains the same. Supporters claim that this is solely an "infrastructure project", but not putting the social policies in place just means the developers are the ones doing the city's dirty work of removing the poor people and "cleaning up the neighborhood". But of course, NY will always be in the pockets of developers and large donors, and the right wheels got greased.

Now, NY could remove the freeway and put in policies to ensure current residents are actually able to stay and enjoy the benefits of no freeway next door. But that would mean less tax revenue for the state/city as well as poor people living next to SU, and we can't have that. [sarcasm emphasized in that last sentence]

There are a lot more snide comments I could take here that are critical of how NY is doing this from the policy side, but I think it would be best if I kept my mouth shut. I will say that I believe state-sponsored gentrification isn't much better than what we did in the 50s and 60s with urban freeways, because the people living next to the freeway are still the ones who suffer. There are ways to both remove the freeway and not screw over current residents, and those are the solutions I wish we pursued.

(personal opinion emphasized)

Edit: this might make some people in the hobby angry, but I'd actually support this project 100% (apart from the crappy sign plans) if the state/city did work on the social services end to ensure people negatively impacted by I-81 actually benefit. With how much Syracuse has shrunk, it could be a great domestic demonstration project for how a bundled approach of infrastructure and social policy can create positive change in a community. I currently live/work in a place which has seen rapid property value increases and I am quite familiar with what can happen if there aren't safeguards for current residents (indeed, part of my work involves trying to protect service workers and ensure they can live near work). My fears and concerns are entirely on the policy end, that the people we're claiming to help with the viaduct removal will end up being harmed through economic changes spurred by said removal.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 08, 2023, 07:33:02 AM
Quote from: cl94 on August 08, 2023, 12:27:14 AM
I'm still waiting for the land speculators to start buying up land near I-81 with hopes of making a fortune when land values increase. Because they will if it's as successful as is hoped.

Unlike a lot of the road community, my criticism of the project isn't with removing the freeway. It's that the entire neighborhood is gonna gentrify and force out the people the politicians claim it's going to help.  That's right, my criticisms of this are from the left! There's a reason freeway removals only happen when developers are salivating over an area, and it's not because people feel sorry for the residents. It's because people see dollar signs and a chance to make a buck.

Nearly every time a major infrastructure project to improve "quality of life" occurs, property values increase if it is successful. Simple economics there, as property values are highly correlated with a location's desirability. Since most of the people who live nearby are renters and not property owners, they're the ones who suffer. People live where they can afford, and if rents in that neighborhood increase, the current residents will end up moving if their income remains the same. Supporters claim that this is solely an "infrastructure project", but not putting the social policies in place just means the developers are the ones doing the city's dirty work of removing the poor people and "cleaning up the neighborhood". But of course, NY will always be in the pockets of developers and large donors, and the right wheels got greased.

Now, NY could remove the freeway and put in policies to ensure current residents are actually able to stay and enjoy the benefits of no freeway next door. But that would mean less tax revenue for the state/city as well as poor people living next to SU, and we can't have that. [sarcasm emphasized in that last sentence]

There are a lot more snide comments I could take here that are critical of how NY is doing this from the policy side, but I think it would be best if I kept my mouth shut. I will say that I believe state-sponsored gentrification isn't much better than what we did in the 50s and 60s with urban freeways, because the people living next to the freeway are still the ones who suffer. There are ways to both remove the freeway and not screw over current residents, and those are the solutions I wish we pursued.

(personal opinion emphasized)

Edit: this might make some people in the hobby angry, but I'd actually support this project 100% (apart from the crappy sign plans) if the state/city did work on the social services end to ensure people negatively impacted by I-81 actually benefit. With how much Syracuse has shrunk, it could be a great domestic demonstration project for how a bundled approach of infrastructure and social policy can create positive change in a community. I currently live/work in a place which has seen rapid property value increases and I am quite familiar with what can happen if there aren't safeguards for current residents (indeed, part of my work involves trying to protect service workers and ensure they can live near work). My fears and concerns are entirely on the policy end, that the people we're claiming to help with the viaduct removal will end up being harmed through economic changes spurred by said removal.
I would totally agree with you if we were talking about a better area. But Syracuse..... There are two possibilities for locals -  things will be either worse or much worse as a result of all this.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on August 08, 2023, 11:34:08 AM
I could easily see how removing the viaduct would cause gentrification. The main reason I oppose demolition of the viaduct is because the viaduct is because it fully connects with other segments of the freeway system and is not a spur like some of the other freeways previously demolished. The area where the viaduct currently exists may be less of an eyesore without the viaduct, but I am not convinced removing the viaduct would improve traffic flow in the area. Also, if the area is gentrified by the viaduct's demolition, the residents pushed out will definitely not have an improved quality of life with the viaduct gone.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 08, 2023, 12:18:26 PM
I don't see much room being opened for new construction due to the viaduct being torn down.  What has happened and is happening in Syracuse is renovation of older buildings, like the Smith and Corbett buildings.  Syracuse has already started to move to protect low-income housing options in the City (not sure if such measures have passed quite yet).

So, I don't see gentrification being generated by I-81's demolition as being a major issue. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: astralentity on August 08, 2023, 07:49:33 PM
Forgive me if I sound old and crotchety, but I hope the whole "community grid" thing gets shot down.  I see it just shifting the traffic load elsewhere and not helping access around Syracuse.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on August 08, 2023, 08:33:12 PM
I agree completely, astralentity. However, like I have stated before in this thread, the community grid proposal is set in stone. It is only a matter of when, not if, the viaduct comes down. Opponents of the CG may stall the process, but the viaduct will ultimately come down, one way or another.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: astralentity on August 08, 2023, 10:35:14 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 08, 2023, 08:33:12 PM
I agree completely, astralentity. However, like I have stated before in this thread, the community grid proposal is set in stone. It is only a matter of when, not if, the viaduct comes down. Opponents of the CG may stall the process, but the viaduct will ultimately come down, one way or another.

Makes me wonder what would happen if the court did stop it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 09, 2023, 12:15:05 AM
Quote from: astralentity on August 08, 2023, 10:35:14 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 08, 2023, 08:33:12 PM
I agree completely, astralentity. However, like I have stated before in this thread, the community grid proposal is set in stone. It is only a matter of when, not if, the viaduct comes down. Opponents of the CG may stall the process, but the viaduct will ultimately come down, one way or another.

Makes me wonder what would happen if the court did stop it.
Court can't stop it.  It can really only delay it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 09, 2023, 10:35:16 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 09, 2023, 12:15:05 AM
Quote from: astralentity on August 08, 2023, 10:35:14 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 08, 2023, 08:33:12 PM
I agree completely, astralentity. However, like I have stated before in this thread, the community grid proposal is set in stone. It is only a matter of when, not if, the viaduct comes down. Opponents of the CG may stall the process, but the viaduct will ultimately come down, one way or another.

Makes me wonder what would happen if the court did stop it.
Court can't stop it.  It can really only delay it.
One thing for sure - court cannot extend viaduct lifetime...  and that seems to be running low.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on August 09, 2023, 12:58:42 PM
But let's keep delaying the inevitable, wasting more taxpayer dollars on frivolous lawsuits, and pitching more infeasible and too-expensive alternatives like a tunnel or a sky-high viaduct.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 09, 2023, 01:06:01 PM
Quote from: seicer on August 09, 2023, 12:58:42 PM
But let's keep delaying the inevitable, wasting more taxpayer dollars on frivolous lawsuits, and pitching more infeasible and too-expensive alternatives like a tunnel or a sky-high viaduct.
In other words it's business as usual in the USA, isn't it?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeek Adam on August 09, 2023, 05:44:10 PM
I'm at the point where I'm also on the support of demolition and no rebuilding/replacement. Don't need more lawsuits to stop it. Just start demolition (which groundbreaking has already occurred) and let's move on. I also am concerned about issues with gentrification, even if there is protections designed for some parts. I am a big supporter of Section 8 housing and it should be part of the changes.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Duke87 on August 09, 2023, 07:14:52 PM
Quote from: seicer on August 09, 2023, 12:58:42 PM
But let's keep delaying the inevitable, wasting more taxpayer dollars on frivolous lawsuits, and pitching more infeasible and too-expensive alternatives like a tunnel or a sky-high viaduct.

To be fair, the state did flagrantly violate the law by excluding suburban communities around Syracuse where opposition to removal exists from the process, at former governor Cuomo's orders in an attempt to ram the project through more quickly than it could have been if the proper process were followed. The state will get spanked for this in court.

But, ultimately, forcing the state to go back and follow the proper process won't change the clearly very predetermined outcome, at least so long as the governor's office is occupied by someone who wants the viaduct removal to move forward. The project's opponents are hail marying here, hoping that NY may have a different governor who doesn't want the viaduct removed by the time the wrecking balls are able to come for it (highly unlikely, of course, but that's why it's a hail mary).


Also gotta consider the bigger picture here: while opponents may not be able to stop this removal project, putting up as much resistance as possible can still make the state think twice about pursuing other future similar projects, if they know it's gonna be a hard fight making it happen.

Besides, keeping the viaduct around a couple extra years has functional value in and of itself, allows people to get more use out of it before it's taken away.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 09, 2023, 07:22:57 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on August 09, 2023, 07:14:52 PM
Quote from: seicer on August 09, 2023, 12:58:42 PM
But let's keep delaying the inevitable, wasting more taxpayer dollars on frivolous lawsuits, and pitching more infeasible and too-expensive alternatives like a tunnel or a sky-high viaduct.

To be fair, the state did flagrantly violate the law by excluding suburban communities around Syracuse where opposition to removal exists from the process, at former governor Cuomo's orders in an attempt to ram the project through more quickly than it could have been if the proper process were followed. The state will get spanked for this in court.

But, ultimately, forcing the state to go back and follow the proper process won't change the clearly very predetermined outcome, at least so long as the governor's office is occupied by someone who wants the viaduct removal to move forward. The project's opponents are hail marying here, hoping that NY may have a different governor who doesn't want the viaduct removed by the time the wrecking balls are able to come for it (highly unlikely, of course, but that's why it's a hail mary).


Also gotta consider the bigger picture here: while opponents may not be able to stop this removal project, putting up as much resistance as possible can still make the state think twice about pursuing other future similar projects, if they know it's gonna be a hard fight making it happen.

Besides, keeping the viaduct around a couple extra years has functional value in and of itself, allows people to get more use out of it before it's taken away.
Pfft.  We'll see how the appeal goes.  The idea that the State did not follow due process is pretty unfounded, especially with FHWA's signoff every step of the way through the NEPA process.

Moreover, your description of the opponent's stances is not in line with what the State court found.

There is another case against FHWA, but I believe nothing is expected to move there until the fall and the expectation of the result is the same.

The real consensus is that the idea that since the EIS was completed before the announcement or even awareness of Micron being guaranteed makes the lower court's ruling very weak indeed.

In any matter, eventual judicial victories will ensure that appropriate removals of urban freeways will continue to be considered.  If anything, the State is learning how it can set itself up for summary judgment motions in case this wasteful path is pursued by opponents in the future.

A new governor that pulls the brakes on this locally popular project would risk backlash for wasting the millions spent already, including the work already being done at the northern interchange.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on August 09, 2023, 09:46:16 PM
I'm not certain that the state violated the law by "excluding" suburban communities that were included in the planning process from the beginning. But because the highway is already constructed as Interstate 481, those overblown concerns of more traffic being put onto a highway with ample capacity (with spot improvements to come) were dismissed or mitigated. Just because some communities along the route may have had differing opinions doesn't mean that they were excluded or that it stops the process. As noted, the FHWA signed off each step of this process.

The recent court ruling just specifies that additional traffic studies need to be done because of Micron, which came about after the alternative was selected.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 10, 2023, 01:46:55 AM
It's just unfathomable to me how opposed certain people like a particular poster in this thread is to merely planning and preserving right of away for a tunnel to be built decades from now, if demand ever calls.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on August 10, 2023, 09:57:01 AM
The DOT dismissed the tunnel alternative as being far too expensive to construct (especially considering the alternatives), and an independent study conducted at the request of Cuomo (https://cnycentral.com/news/local/tunnel-option-for-i-81-could-take-up-to-45-billion-decade-to-build-study-finds) came to the same conclusion. Does the state need to go into deep debt to build a $3 billion to $4 billion tunnel for low AADT? On top of the permanent closure of many city streets (which was agreed from the beginning was not going to be acceptable), excessive traffic congestion during construction, and technical challenges that would surely drive up project costs.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 10, 2023, 10:35:56 AM
Quote from: seicer on August 10, 2023, 09:57:01 AM
The DOT dismissed the tunnel alternative as being far too expensive to construct (especially considering the alternatives), and an independent study conducted at the request of Cuomo (https://cnycentral.com/news/local/tunnel-option-for-i-81-could-take-up-to-45-billion-decade-to-build-study-finds) came to the same conclusion. Does the state need to go into deep debt to build a $3 billion to $4 billion tunnel for low AADT? On top of the permanent closure of many city streets (which was agreed from the beginning was not going to be acceptable), excessive traffic congestion during construction, and technical challenges that would surely drive up project costs.
Other aspect of it is even preserving ROW requires a rough design to make sure preserved areas actually would work.
Given the problems - soil, water table - I guess even defining required areas is a bit too uncertain to bother. Not to mention that entire project is  prohibitively expensive even in it's cheaper version. It's only due to "must fix" situation that things are happening at all.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on August 10, 2023, 11:36:22 AM
Well, for the tunnel alternative, that would require demolishing a large swath of land through the heart of Syracuse and then just letting it sit idle indefinitely for a tunnel that will never be built.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 10, 2023, 11:43:35 AM
Quote from: seicer on August 10, 2023, 11:36:22 AM
Well, for the tunnel alternative, that would require demolishing a large swath of land through the heart of Syracuse and then just letting it sit idle indefinitely for a tunnel that will never be built.
^So much this, which I think I pointed out earlier in this thread (or should have).

Given the development that has occurred right around the viaduct already, let alone all over Syracuse in recent years, the idea of purchasing ROW of massive tracts in downtown Syracuse for the tunnel portals when funding will never be found at this point is the definition of governmental waste.

So, I, for one, do not understand certain individuals that continue to tilt at this windmill.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on August 10, 2023, 11:44:56 AM
Quote from: seicer on August 10, 2023, 09:57:01 AM
The DOT dismissed the tunnel alternative as being far too expensive to construct (especially considering the alternatives), and an independent study conducted at the request of Cuomo (https://cnycentral.com/news/local/tunnel-option-for-i-81-could-take-up-to-45-billion-decade-to-build-study-finds) came to the same conclusion. Does the state need to go into deep debt to build a $3 billion to $4 billion tunnel for low AADT? On top of the permanent closure of many city streets (which was agreed from the beginning was not going to be acceptable), excessive traffic congestion during construction, and technical challenges that would surely drive up project costs.
I'm not saying I support a tunnel alternative now or in the future, but I do think it's important to note he said preserve right of way for a future tunnel - not one today.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on August 10, 2023, 11:47:02 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 10, 2023, 11:43:35 AM
Given the development that has occurred right around the viaduct already, let alone all over Syracuse in recent years, the idea of purchasing ROW of massive tracts in downtown Syracuse for the tunnel portals when funding will never be found at this point is the definition of governmental waste.
Spending $2.25 billion on a community grid is the definition of governmental waste.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 10, 2023, 11:59:06 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 10, 2023, 11:47:02 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 10, 2023, 11:43:35 AM
Given the development that has occurred right around the viaduct already, let alone all over Syracuse in recent years, the idea of purchasing ROW of massive tracts in downtown Syracuse for the tunnel portals when funding will never be found at this point is the definition of governmental waste.
Spending $2.25 billion on a community grid is the definition of governmental waste.

You're mischaracterizing the scope of the project, so this is nothing but a strawman and polemic argument that is moot.

As I've said before in here, I'm all for discussing the project, warts and all, if people's stances are based upon the actual characteristics of the project. 

It's rather disappointing that on this forum dedicated to all things roadgeekery that there are those that insist on seeing the project as they want to, rather than what it is.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on August 10, 2023, 12:29:41 PM
As much as I would have preferred that NYDOT had chosen to retain the viaduct (and construct the new viaduct to modern design standards), we have to face the reality that the project will go through as planned. Also, in a city like Syracuse, building a tunnel was never going to be practical. Still, I think $2.25 billion is a hefty price tag for a project like this.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 10, 2023, 12:54:05 PM
Keep in mind that $2.25 billion isn't just for tearing down the I-81 viaduct and doing work on the streets below it.  The I-690 viaduct is being replaced.  The two interchanges with I-481 are being redone.  I-481 is being widened in spots, including both directions on some rather long bridges (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.066364,-76.0524135,3a,75y,12.55h,80.21t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqRg5ac8UZdPW00uFIm_F8g!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DqRg5ac8UZdPW00uFIm_F8g%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D87.54018%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu).  The part that's remaining a freeway is getting a fair amount of work.  This isn't just a viaduct tear-down - it's basically a revitalization of Syracuse's entire transportation system.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 10, 2023, 01:40:46 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 10, 2023, 12:54:05 PM
Keep in mind that $2.25 billion isn't just for tearing down the I-81 viaduct and doing work on the streets below it.  The I-690 viaduct is being replaced.  The two interchanges with I-481 are being redone.  I-481 is being widened in spots, including both directions on some rather long bridges (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.066364,-76.0524135,3a,75y,12.55h,80.21t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqRg5ac8UZdPW00uFIm_F8g!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DqRg5ac8UZdPW00uFIm_F8g%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D87.54018%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu).  The part that's remaining a freeway is getting a fair amount of work.  This isn't just a viaduct tear-down - it's basically a revitalization of Syracuse's entire transportation system.
... because just tearing down viaduct would indeed be catastrophic. Some don't like a new road system planned for Syracuse- but there are few things everyone would love (except, maybe, money and beer)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on August 10, 2023, 02:19:56 PM
As a roadgeek native of the area, I have always been fascinated by the viaduct and I always found it very exciting to drive or ride on it, or under it on Almond Street.  I'm sad to see it go and I wish there were alternatives that maintained I-81 through downtown.

That being said, I can't help but think of the "viaduct" built along NY 17 in Horseheads. It was built as a solid structure and essentially creates a brick wall through that area of town. There's no way a modern viaduct, which would have undoubtedly been built to similar standards, would hold up with that sort of appearance through the middle of downtown Syracuse. Yes, there would have been more underpasses and yes, concessions on the design would have been made, but there most certainly would have been discussions around sound walls and other mitigation factors that would never have been considered in the 1950s and 1960s.

With the conversion to the community grid, I feel like the bridge carrying I-81 over Park Street near Destiny USA that was built in the early 1980s will now be way over-engineered for the traffic the BL81 freeway will be carrying. When it's time for that to be replaced I wonder if they're going to consider something else there as well.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Duke87 on August 10, 2023, 06:29:47 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 10, 2023, 11:43:35 AM
Quote from: seicer on August 10, 2023, 11:36:22 AM
Well, for the tunnel alternative, that would require demolishing a large swath of land through the heart of Syracuse and then just letting it sit idle indefinitely for a tunnel that will never be built.
^So much this, which I think I pointed out earlier in this thread (or should have).

Given the development that has occurred right around the viaduct already, let alone all over Syracuse in recent years, the idea of purchasing ROW of massive tracts in downtown Syracuse for the tunnel portals when funding will never be found at this point is the definition of governmental waste.

So, I, for one, do not understand certain individuals that continue to tilt at this windmill.

I mean...
1) some are of the opinion that a freeway through downtown must be retained at any cost, and any option that involves not having one should never have been considered
2) a tunnel would be the only feasible way of retaining a thru freeway without slaughtering any sacred cows

Combine 1 and 2 and you get harping about tunnels.


The problem, of course, is that this logic is at odds with the reality that this is New York we're talking about. Another state might actually be able to come up with the money for a tunnel (boondoggly as it may be). Another state might also not be shackled by sacred cow problems and would be capable of building a new viaduct up to modern standards at reasonable cost, even though use of eminent domain would be required. But New York is a failed state that is simultaneously broke and institutionally incapable of building anything if someone might have a fingernail broken in the process due to past trauma over planning malpractice (thanks Robert Moses).

They wrap the project up in dressing about "reconnecting communities" and other feelgood bullshit that it won't actually accomplish in the way they're acting like it will, but the reality is the state is capitulating to their own impotence and they refuse to admit it.

I'd respect this whole project a lot more if New York were honest and said "look, we're incapable of keeping I-81 through downtown, sorry, but hey at least some developers will profit from its removal". Because ultimately given all the constraints in play the option being pursued is the best and most realistic one... but the state is not explaining their motives in good faith and that, frankly, bothers me more than anything else about it.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 10, 2023, 06:42:02 PM


Quote from: Duke87 on August 10, 2023, 06:29:47 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 10, 2023, 11:43:35 AM
Quote from: seicer on August 10, 2023, 11:36:22 AM
Well, for the tunnel alternative, that would require demolishing a large swath of land through the heart of Syracuse and then just letting it sit idle indefinitely for a tunnel that will never be built.
^So much this, which I think I pointed out earlier in this thread (or should have).

Given the development that has occurred right around the viaduct already, let alone all over Syracuse in recent years, the idea of purchasing ROW of massive tracts in downtown Syracuse for the tunnel portals when funding will never be found at this point is the definition of governmental waste.

So, I, for one, do not understand certain individuals that continue to tilt at this windmill.

I mean...
1) some are of the opinion that a freeway through downtown must be retained at any cost, and any option that involves not having one should never have been considered
2) a tunnel would be the only feasible way of retaining a thru freeway without slaughtering any sacred cows

Combine 1 and 2 and you get harping about tunnels.


The problem, of course, is that this logic is at odds with the reality that this is New York we're talking about. Another state might actually be able to come up with the money for a tunnel (boondoggly as it may be). Another state might also not be shackled by sacred cow problems and would be capable of building a new viaduct up to modern standards at reasonable cost, even though use of eminent domain would be required. But New York is a failed state that is simultaneously broke and institutionally incapable of building anything if someone might have a fingernail broken in the process due to past trauma over planning malpractice (thanks Robert Moses).

They wrap the project up in dressing about "reconnecting communities" and other feelgood bullshit that it won't actually accomplish in the way they're acting like it will, but the reality is the state is capitulating to their own impotence and they refuse to admit it.

I'd respect this whole project a lot more if New York were honest and said "look, we're incapable of keeping I-81 through downtown, sorry, but hey at least some developers will profit from its removal". Because ultimately given all the constraints in play the option being pursued is the best and most realistic one... but the state is not explaining their motives in good faith and that, frankly, bothers me more than anything else about it.

Oh, I'm the first to admit that the main thrust of the demolition of the viaduct and rest of the project was fiscal -- it was literally the cheapest option.  However, this option would not have been chosen if traffic simulations showed it to be infeasible.  There's very good reason why I-690 is being reconstructed and the northern and southern interchanges.

If money is to be made by developers, then that would mean some sort of community is being built.  As I've said before, the old ward was totally obliterated by the viaduct back in the 1960s and will not be coming back or "reconnected" as Schumer's puzzle pieces implied at the groundbreaking.  The old community just isn't there.

But, as I've pointed out, downtown revitalization is happening here and there in Syracuse already, thankfully including the massive renovation of the hideous "City Center" building.  A lot of residential units are being built/refurbished.

I'm still not seeing much new space for other development, though, so whatever money developers will make in that regard will be minimal.

But, if there's one thing downtown is missing, it's something like a supermarket.  I'd hate for Tops to find room to come in (they're horrible price-wise), but outside of a few small boutique kinds of places, it is a real food desert.  Man, something like Boston's Star Market would be perfect...especially if they delivered...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on August 10, 2023, 06:55:04 PM
Usually developments are part of a city wide vitilalization project and from I witnessed here, it don't seem part of it. It just a conversion from freeway to arterial to remove a barrier, which is proven to be elevated or suppressed freeways in the modern world..

A major vitalization project is that like of Newport in Jersey City, NJ and there aren't such projects around I-81 that seems close to it. Newport was just the conversion of old railroads and warehouses to a modern office, retail, and residential facilities along a prime waterfront. In Syracuse it looks like they're strengthening a fallen community by bringing back whole neighborhoods.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 10, 2023, 07:39:26 PM


Quote from: roadman65 on August 10, 2023, 06:55:04 PM
Usually developments are part of a city wide vitilalization project and from I witnessed here, it don't seem part of it. It just a conversion from freeway to arterial to remove a barrier, which is proven to be elevated or suppressed freeways in the modern world..

A major vitalization project is that like of Newport in Jersey City, NJ and there aren't such projects around I-81 that seems close to it. Newport was just the conversion of old railroads and warehouses to a modern office, retail, and residential facilities along a prime waterfront. In Syracuse it looks like they're strengthening a fallen community by bringing back whole neighborhoods.

I don't see revitalization in Syracuse happening on that kind of scale, though.  I see a major building here and there being upgraded, but definitely not entire neighborhoods.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 10, 2023, 08:16:29 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 10, 2023, 07:39:26 PM


Quote from: roadman65 on August 10, 2023, 06:55:04 PM
Usually developments are part of a city wide vitilalization project and from I witnessed here, it don't seem part of it. It just a conversion from freeway to arterial to remove a barrier, which is proven to be elevated or suppressed freeways in the modern world..

A major vitalization project is that like of Newport in Jersey City, NJ and there aren't such projects around I-81 that seems close to it. Newport was just the conversion of old railroads and warehouses to a modern office, retail, and residential facilities along a prime waterfront. In Syracuse it looks like they're strengthening a fallen community by bringing back whole neighborhoods.

I don't see revitalization in Syracuse happening on that kind of scale, though.  I see a major building here and there being upgraded, but definitely not entire neighborhoods.
Small scale development in Austin - we may get only 10000 jobs out of that. Small development in China - a smallish town of 1000000 people. Large development in Upstate - we may get Wegmans!!!11
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Duke87 on August 11, 2023, 01:54:30 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 10, 2023, 06:42:02 PM
I'm still not seeing much new space for other development, though, so whatever money developers will make in that regard will be minimal.

Even if there isn't new space, the presence of an elevated freeway depresses the land value of adjacent parcels because living or working right next to such a thing is deemed undesireable by the majority of people. Removing it still helps developers since they'll be able to charge higher rents for spaces adjacent to a "community grid". This is not minimal.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 11, 2023, 02:31:55 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on August 11, 2023, 01:54:30 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 10, 2023, 06:42:02 PM
I'm still not seeing much new space for other development, though, so whatever money developers will make in that regard will be minimal.

Even if there isn't new space, the presence of an elevated freeway depresses the land value of adjacent parcels because living or working right next to such a thing is deemed undesireable by the majority of people. Removing it still helps developers since they'll be able to charge higher rents for spaces adjacent to a "community grid". This is not minimal.
Except, outside of Jefferson and Madison Towers, there aren't that many residential properties next to the viaduct.  Upstate and the Psychiatric Center take up the vast bulk of the adjacent property.  Pioneer Homes will remain public project housing as it has since 1941.

And, if Hamilton House is opened back up because of the grid, all the better...although I have no idea where the residents would park.  Thought it would be best for that skyscraper to be demolished, myself.

The rentals north of I-690 will still be behind that reconstructed elevated freeway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on August 11, 2023, 04:19:14 PM
Does higher viaducts not having the dark tunnel effect beneath it, not separate neighborhoods?

The reason why I ask is in South Tampa, the Leroy Selmon Viaduct was built 30 feet above US 92 and to me I don't see it as barrier between both sides. Ditto for TX SH 146 in Seabrook, TX where the new freeway is over 50 feet above ground and to me I see the same as before it was built as the new freeway don't create a dark area in between the two sides of the highway as a lower underpass would.

In fact the darkness a viaduct creates is, IMO, what cause the mind to see a barrier. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on August 11, 2023, 06:58:22 PM
Quote from: seicer on August 09, 2023, 12:58:42 PM
But let's keep delaying the inevitable, wasting more taxpayer dollars on frivolous lawsuits, and pitching more infeasible and too-expensive alternatives like a tunnel or a sky-high viaduct.
I'll take a regular in-kind viaduct for $500, Alex.
(million)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 11, 2023, 07:52:16 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 11, 2023, 04:19:14 PM
Does higher viaducts not having the dark tunnel effect beneath it, not separate neighborhoods?

The reason why I ask is in South Tampa, the Leroy Selmon Viaduct was built 30 feet above US 92 and to me I don't see it as barrier between both sides. Ditto for TX SH 146 in Seabrook, TX where the new freeway is over 50 feet above ground and to me I see the same as before it was built as the new freeway don't create a dark area in between the two sides of the highway as a lower underpass would.

In fact the darkness a viaduct creates is, IMO, what cause the mind to see a barrier.
I really wonder how many people turned down jobs because commute to that job would involve passing under the highway ..
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on August 11, 2023, 07:55:19 PM
Quote from: Alps on August 11, 2023, 06:58:22 PM
Quote from: seicer on August 09, 2023, 12:58:42 PM
But let's keep delaying the inevitable, wasting more taxpayer dollars on frivolous lawsuits, and pitching more infeasible and too-expensive alternatives like a tunnel or a sky-high viaduct.
I'll take a regular in-kind viaduct for $500, Alex.
(million)

FHWA won't allow an "in-kind"...not on an Interstate.  But I suspect you knew that already...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Roadgeek Adam on August 11, 2023, 08:17:18 PM
With the tunnel question. What extra traffic in the next 25 years do you see? None of the Thruway 5 (Buffalo-Rochester-Syracuse-Utica-Albany) are exactly projecting to see a moving boom in the next 25 years. Why should we make room for a tunnel that will never be built for traffic expectations likely to never be realized? Why can't we just tear the viaduct, let the community change and move on? They'll improve the roads around the city and in for the traffic that does exist. I've never seen statistics that say any of the Thruway 5 cities are gonna experience growth.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on August 11, 2023, 10:32:53 PM
Quote from: froggie on August 11, 2023, 07:55:19 PM
Quote from: Alps on August 11, 2023, 06:58:22 PM
Quote from: seicer on August 09, 2023, 12:58:42 PM
But let's keep delaying the inevitable, wasting more taxpayer dollars on frivolous lawsuits, and pitching more infeasible and too-expensive alternatives like a tunnel or a sky-high viaduct.
I'll take a regular in-kind viaduct for $500, Alex.
(million)

FHWA won't allow an "in-kind"...not on an Interstate.  But I suspect you knew that already...
I suspect you don't realize that I meant "in-kind" as a viaduct of the same height, not the same cross section.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on August 11, 2023, 10:47:48 PM
It would have been foolish to reconstruct the viaduct in-kind, since it is a shoulder-less four lane roadway. If the viaduct had been maintained, they probably would have reconstructed it to modern design standards and adding emergency shoulders (if doing so didn't take up too much right-of-way).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 12, 2023, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: Roadgeek Adam on August 11, 2023, 08:17:18 PM
With the tunnel question. What extra traffic in the next 25 years do you see? None of the Thruway 5 (Buffalo-Rochester-Syracuse-Utica-Albany) are exactly projecting to see a moving boom in the next 25 years. Why should we make room for a tunnel that will never be built for traffic expectations likely to never be realized? Why can't we just tear the viaduct, let the community change and move on? They'll improve the roads around the city and in for the traffic that does exist. I've never seen statistics that say any of the Thruway 5 cities are gonna experience growth.

To be fair, Micron's a-coming.  That said, it's to the northwest of Syracuse, which means it could be an interesting case of people commuting from the city out to Cicero.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on August 12, 2023, 08:45:35 AM
Quote from: Alps on August 11, 2023, 06:58:22 PM
Quote from: seicer on August 09, 2023, 12:58:42 PM
But let's keep delaying the inevitable, wasting more taxpayer dollars on frivolous lawsuits, and pitching more infeasible and too-expensive alternatives like a tunnel or a sky-high viaduct.
I'll take a regular in-kind viaduct for $500, Alex.
(million)

I'm not totally opposed to a rebuilt viaduct but it seems that the only options people are really pushing through is that sky-high viaduct and tunnel.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on August 12, 2023, 09:44:24 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 12, 2023, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: Roadgeek Adam on August 11, 2023, 08:17:18 PM
With the tunnel question. What extra traffic in the next 25 years do you see? None of the Thruway 5 (Buffalo-Rochester-Syracuse-Utica-Albany) are exactly projecting to see a moving boom in the next 25 years. Why should we make room for a tunnel that will never be built for traffic expectations likely to never be realized? Why can't we just tear the viaduct, let the community change and move on? They'll improve the roads around the city and in for the traffic that does exist. I've never seen statistics that say any of the Thruway 5 cities are gonna experience growth.

To be fair, Micron's a-coming.  That said, it's to the northwest of Syracuse, which means it could be an interesting case of people commuting from the city out to Cicero.
Micron is a big "I believe it when I see it". Flash prices collapse, and it's not that qualified per for the fab are abundant, or willing to move to Syracuse.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on August 12, 2023, 10:04:23 AM
This being Syracuse, I'm not sold on Micron actually being a thing either.  Just look at the ORIGINAL DestinyUSA proposal.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Flyer78 on August 12, 2023, 03:30:38 PM
What, didn't that groundbreaking (https://dailyorange.com/2002/10/executives-residents-break-ground-on-destiny-project/) for the grand hotel in 2002 give you hope?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 12, 2023, 05:23:08 PM
I wonder if the full build out will really be realized, but I have to say something will be built up there, even if only the first phase.  SEQR Lead Agency request is already in, I believe.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on August 20, 2023, 04:36:21 PM
You know just because the number is being changed don't mean we have to follow the new I-81 when complete. If we want to follow the original 81, we still can. We just have to get used to some lights, but other than that it's still the same.

So no need to whine about the whole thing.  Yeah maybe new exit numbers as well ( mile based to BL I-81) but the rest of the freeway still the same.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 20, 2023, 04:53:44 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 20, 2023, 04:36:21 PM
You know just because the number is being changed don't mean we have to follow the new I-81 when complete. If we want to follow the original 81, we still can. We just have to get used to some lights, but other than that it's still the same.

So no need to whine about the whole thing.  Yeah maybe new exit numbers as well ( mile based to BL I-81) but the rest of the freeway still the same.
A bunch of lights, a roundabout, low speed limits, and a couple turns.  It's only three minutes slower to take I-481 over I-81 right now, so existing I-481 will definitely be the faster option upon completion.  Plus for those who care about taking interstates over other routes, current I-81 won't be part of the interstate system anymore (business routes don't count), so there's that.

Not "maybe" on new numbers.  I-81, BL 81, and I-690 will all be getting mile-based exit numbers as part of the project.  Probably NY 481 too, but the plans online don't show enough to see if the number for US 11 is fudged to avoid alphabet soup of if it's just sequential.  The plans online also don't show if NY 690 will get exit numbers, but the I-690 mileage includes it, so I would also say probably on that front.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on August 20, 2023, 06:30:03 PM
Are there any other roadways in New York State planning to convert to mileage-based exits after Interstate/Business 81 and Interstate/NY 690? New York is converting even slower than Connecticut.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on August 20, 2023, 07:48:48 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 20, 2023, 04:53:44 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 20, 2023, 04:36:21 PM
You know just because the number is being changed don't mean we have to follow the new I-81 when complete. If we want to follow the original 81, we still can. We just have to get used to some lights, but other than that it's still the same.

So no need to whine about the whole thing.  Yeah maybe new exit numbers as well ( mile based to BL I-81) but the rest of the freeway still the same.
A bunch of lights, a roundabout, low speed limits, and a couple turns.  It's only three minutes slower to take I-481 over I-81 right now, so existing I-481 will definitely be the faster option upon completion.  Plus for those who care about taking interstates over other routes, current I-81 won't be part of the interstate system anymore (business routes don't count), so there's that.

Not "maybe" on new numbers.  I-81, BL 81, and I-690 will all be getting mile-based exit numbers as part of the project.  Probably NY 481 too, but the plans online don't show enough to see if the number for US 11 is fudged to avoid alphabet soup of if it's just sequential.  The plans online also don't show if NY 690 will get exit numbers, but the I-690 mileage includes it, so I would also say probably on that front.

They're going to have to redo all the mile markers on NY 481 as IIRC they continue I-481's (missing) mile markers and they go almost all the way to Oswego (outside of the Fulton city limits). I thought I saw a plan somewhere with US 11 as Exit 2, so I'm assuming that'll be a go.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 20, 2023, 09:08:27 PM
^ That's what I'm wondering whether it's just fudged to avoid exit 1C, or if they actually made a new set of sequential numbers.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on August 20, 2023, 09:37:18 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/VNsYMjVhcGx2Az8w5
Currently both I-481/ NY 481 have the same scheme. NYSDOT can be cheap and not touch NY 481 as people wouldn’t care if the sequence starts a 9, but if you change it just convert to mile based as you’re changing the tabs anyway as if you started a new sequence north of I-81.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on August 20, 2023, 10:09:47 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 20, 2023, 04:53:44 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 20, 2023, 04:36:21 PM
You know just because the number is being changed don't mean we have to follow the new I-81 when complete. If we want to follow the original 81, we still can. We just have to get used to some lights, but other than that it's still the same.

So no need to whine about the whole thing.  Yeah maybe new exit numbers as well ( mile based to BL I-81) but the rest of the freeway still the same.
A bunch of lights, a roundabout, low speed limits, and a couple turns.  It's only three minutes slower to take I-481 over I-81 right now, so existing I-481 will definitely be the faster option upon completion.  Plus for those who care about taking interstates over other routes, current I-81 won't be part of the interstate system anymore (business routes don't count), so there's that.

Not "maybe" on new numbers.  I-81, BL 81, and I-690 will all be getting mile-based exit numbers as part of the project.  Probably NY 481 too, but the plans online don't show enough to see if the number for US 11 is fudged to avoid alphabet soup of if it's just sequential.  The plans online also don't show if NY 690 will get exit numbers, but the I-690 mileage includes it, so I would also say probably on that front.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/8154090898_d310f5f2e0_k.jpg)

In 2012 this was here to encourage through I-81 traffic to make the loop.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: davewiecking on August 20, 2023, 10:50:58 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 20, 2023, 10:09:47 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/8154090898_d310f5f2e0_k.jpg)
In 2012 this was here to encourage through I-81 traffic to make the loop.
Still said that 3 months ago:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9802874,-76.1311664,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sd8jYo-z6Yh7bcVsUJEbOKQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on August 21, 2023, 03:53:57 AM
Does anyone know the plan to reconfigure the current I-81 and I-481 exchange on the south side of Syracuse? I imagine it's more than adding lanes to the current NB I-81 to NB I-481 single lane ramp to a two lane ramp or replace the SB 481 to SB 81 flyover to a two lane flyover.

I assume a right side ramp to future BL I-81 will be created and the current free flowing SB I-81 freeway will be realigned to merge with Future I-81 SB on the right.

Plus the Brighton Avenue on-ramp to I-81 NB will be modified to allow access to I-81 SB as well.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 21, 2023, 06:55:43 AM


Quote from: roadman65 on August 21, 2023, 03:53:57 AM
Does anyone know the plan to reconfigure the current I-81 and I-481 exchange on the south side of Syracuse? I imagine it's more than adding lanes to the current NB I-81 to NB I-481 single lane ramp to a two lane ramp or replace the SB 481 to SB 81 flyover to a two lane flyover.

I assume a right side ramp to future BL I-81 will be created and the current free flowing SB I-81 freeway will be realigned to merge with Future I-81 SB on the right.

Plus the Brighton Avenue on-ramp to I-81 NB will be modified to allow access to I-81 SB as well.

This is where I have a misgiving.  The I-81 SB to BL 81 NB connection will no longer be free-flowing and will have a traffic light in it to help with local connections east and west of the interchange. 

I use that movement every now and then, so I find that annoying, and, although population is more sparse down by Jamesville and Popley, I would think those people would use that ramp to get downtown.  Still, the AADT is what the AADT is...

I'm not sure if there's anything else more remarkable aboit the new configuration.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on August 21, 2023, 07:07:53 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 21, 2023, 06:55:43 AM


Quote from: roadman65 on August 21, 2023, 03:53:57 AM
Does anyone know the plan to reconfigure the current I-81 and I-481 exchange on the south side of Syracuse? I imagine it's more than adding lanes to the current NB I-81 to NB I-481 single lane ramp to a two lane ramp or replace the SB 481 to SB 81 flyover to a two lane flyover.

I assume a right side ramp to future BL I-81 will be created and the current free flowing SB I-81 freeway will be realigned to merge with Future I-81 SB on the right.

Plus the Brighton Avenue on-ramp to I-81 NB will be modified to allow access to I-81 SB as well.

This is where I have a misgiving.  The I-81 SB to BL 81 NB connection will no longer be free-flowing and will have a traffic light in it to help with local connections east and west of the interchange. 

I use that movement every now and then, so I find that annoying, and, although population is more sparse down by Jamesville and Popley, I would think those people would use that ramp to get downtown.  Still, the AADT is what the AADT is...

I'm not sure if there's anything else more remarkable aboit the new configuration.
so that light I take will be at Brighton Avenue? The current 481 SB to Brighten Avenue will be for BL I-81 via the current ramp signal there?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on August 21, 2023, 07:13:15 AM
https://webapps.dot.ny.gov/i-81-viaduct-project
I found this about the northern exchange.  This was pretty obvious design.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on August 21, 2023, 09:03:01 AM
^ The same website has a graphic (https://webapps.dot.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2022/02/14-board_i-481-vertical-for-printing-2021jun4lo_0.pdf) that answers your earlier question about the southern 81/481 interchange.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 21, 2023, 09:20:32 AM
Quote from: davewiecking on August 20, 2023, 10:50:58 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 20, 2023, 10:09:47 PM
In 2012 this was here to encourage through I-81 traffic to make the loop.
Still said that 3 months ago:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9802874,-76.1311664,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sd8jYo-z6Yh7bcVsUJEbOKQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Not much thru traffic actually uses I-481 though. As noted, it's about 3-4 minutes longer, and that's pretty consistent because there's rarely traffic through downtown Syracuse. That will definitely change with this project, though, as the boulevard will add at least several minutes to the downtown route.

The bigger question remains how the south to west movement will be affected since the current viaduct saves a full 8-9 minutes vs. the other freeway alternatives. My extremely long-term prediction, if/when the entire project in Syracuse is completed as planned, is that there will be a notable increase in traffic on I-86 west of Binghamton and I-390 (especially south of Exit 6) as traffic to/from Buffalo, Rochester and elsewhere in WNY shifts. (I'm hoping that's way into the future, but still shifting to "acceptance mode" for now.  :paranoid:)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on August 21, 2023, 11:56:44 AM
Quote from: froggie on August 21, 2023, 09:03:01 AM
^ The same website has a graphic (https://webapps.dot.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2022/02/14-board_i-481-vertical-for-printing-2021jun4lo_0.pdf) that answers your earlier question about the southern 81/481 interchange.

I can’t find it as it’s only the north end they show details to.. I wouldn’t ask if I found it on there, as that would be something for Ethanman, who has been gone for well over a decade who then would be to do for attention.

I do appreciate the link to it though as it does prove useful.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 21, 2023, 12:59:55 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 21, 2023, 09:20:32 AM
Quote from: davewiecking on August 20, 2023, 10:50:58 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 20, 2023, 10:09:47 PM
In 2012 this was here to encourage through I-81 traffic to make the loop.
Still said that 3 months ago:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9802874,-76.1311664,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sd8jYo-z6Yh7bcVsUJEbOKQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Not much thru traffic actually uses I-481 though. As noted, it's about 3-4 minutes longer, and that's pretty consistent because there's rarely traffic through downtown Syracuse. That will definitely change with this project, though, as the boulevard will add at least several minutes to the downtown route.

The bigger question remains how the south to east movement will be affected since the current viaduct saves a full 8-9 minutes vs. the other freeway alternatives. My extremely long-term prediction, if/when the entire project in Syracuse is completed as planned, is that there will be a notable increase in traffic on I-86 west of Binghamton and I-390 (especially south of Exit 6) as traffic to/from Buffalo, Rochester and elsewhere in WNY shifts. (I'm hoping that's way into the future, but still shifting to "acceptance mode" for now.  :paranoid:)
I expect that it will still be faster to take I-90/I-81, even with having to go out to current I-481, than to go down I-390 and I-86/NY 17 for much of the Rochester area.  Then again, people will often take routes they "feel" are faster, regardless if they actually are, so who knows.

Quote from: roadman65 on August 21, 2023, 11:56:44 AM
Quote from: froggie on August 21, 2023, 09:03:01 AM
^ The same website has a graphic (https://webapps.dot.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2022/02/14-board_i-481-vertical-for-printing-2021jun4lo_0.pdf) that answers your earlier question about the southern 81/481 interchange.

I can't find it as it's only the north end they show details to.. I wouldn't ask if I found it on there, as that would be something for Ethanman, who has been gone for well over a decade who then would be to do for attention.

I do appreciate the link to it though as it does prove useful.
Scroll to the bottom.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on August 21, 2023, 01:17:03 PM


Quote from: webny99 on August 21, 2023, 09:20:32 AM
Quote from: davewiecking on August 20, 2023, 10:50:58 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 20, 2023, 10:09:47 PM
In 2012 this was here to encourage through I-81 traffic to make the loop.
Still said that 3 months ago:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9802874,-76.1311664,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sd8jYo-z6Yh7bcVsUJEbOKQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Not much thru traffic actually uses I-481 though. As noted, it's about 3-4 minutes longer, and that's pretty consistent because there's rarely traffic through downtown Syracuse. That will definitely change with this project, though, as the boulevard will add at least several minutes to the downtown route.

The bigger question remains how the south to east movement will be affected since the current viaduct saves a full 8-9 minutes vs. the other freeway alternatives. My extremely long-term prediction, if/when the entire project in Syracuse is completed as planned, is that there will be a notable increase in traffic on I-86 west of Binghamton and I-390 (especially south of Exit 6) as traffic to/from Buffalo, Rochester and elsewhere in WNY shifts. (I'm hoping that's way into the future, but still shifting to "acceptance mode" for now.  :paranoid:)

South to east...?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 21, 2023, 03:13:02 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2023, 12:59:55 PM
I expect that it will still be faster to take I-90/I-81, even with having to go out to current I-481, than to go down I-390 and I-86/NY 17 for much of the Rochester area.  Then again, people will often take routes they "feel" are faster, regardless if they actually are, so who knows.

Whereas I-90/I-81 is now ~10 minutes faster across the board, it's probably going to become dependent on where in the Rochester area your start/endpoint is. Anywhere west of I-390 is likely to be a toss-up at best, while points east may still favor I-90/I-81 - but that may include using I-690 to the new boulevard, especially at non-peak times.


Quote from: Rothman on August 21, 2023, 01:17:03 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 21, 2023, 09:20:32 AM
The bigger question remains how the south to east west movement will be affected since the current viaduct saves a full 8-9 minutes vs. the other freeway alternatives. My extremely long-term prediction, if/when the entire project in Syracuse is completed as planned, is that there will be a notable increase in traffic on I-86 west of Binghamton and I-390 (especially south of Exit 6) as traffic to/from Buffalo, Rochester and elsewhere in WNY shifts. (I'm hoping that's way into the future, but still shifting to "acceptance mode" for now.  :paranoid:)

South to east...?

Whoops, I meant south to west.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 21, 2023, 08:35:05 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 21, 2023, 03:13:02 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2023, 12:59:55 PM
I expect that it will still be faster to take I-90/I-81, even with having to go out to current I-481, than to go down I-390 and I-86/NY 17 for much of the Rochester area.  Then again, people will often take routes they "feel" are faster, regardless if they actually are, so who knows.

Whereas I-90/I-81 is now ~10 minutes faster across the board, it's probably going to become dependent on where in the Rochester area your start/endpoint is. Anywhere west of I-390 is likely to be a toss-up at best, while points east may still favor I-90/I-81 - but that may include using I-690 to the new boulevard, especially at non-peak times.


Quote from: Rothman on August 21, 2023, 01:17:03 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 21, 2023, 09:20:32 AM
The bigger question remains how the south to east west movement will be affected since the current viaduct saves a full 8-9 minutes vs. the other freeway alternatives. My extremely long-term prediction, if/when the entire project in Syracuse is completed as planned, is that there will be a notable increase in traffic on I-86 west of Binghamton and I-390 (especially south of Exit 6) as traffic to/from Buffalo, Rochester and elsewhere in WNY shifts. (I'm hoping that's way into the future, but still shifting to "acceptance mode" for now.  :paranoid:)

South to east...?

Whoops, I meant south to west.
Let's see... starting on I-390 south in Henrietta, ending on I-81 south in Binghamton, I-390/I-86/NY 17 is 2h 28m, while I-90/I-690/I-481/I-81 is 2h 28m, so roughly the same (vs. 2h 20m today for I-90/I-690/I-81).  Although I-86/NY 17 might "feel" faster due to the lack of backtracking in Syracuse.  Feel free to play around (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.0674162,-77.6370607/42.1150052,-75.8984141/@42.6048799,-77.6046359,8.52z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0?entry=ttu).

I would not expect traffic to take I-690 to BL 81 in large numbers.  Doing so will involve having to take a right and then a left, as there is no direct interchange on I-690 for BL 81 to/from the south.  Instead traffic will have to use the Crouse/Irving interchange a couple blocks away.  It would be easier to just take the Thruway to exit 36 if one wanted to use BL 81.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on August 21, 2023, 09:26:41 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2023, 08:35:05 PM
Let's see... starting on I-390 south in Henrietta, ending on I-81 south in Binghamton, I-390/I-86/NY 17 is 2h 28m, while I-90/I-690/I-481/I-81 is 2h 28m, so roughly the same (vs. 2h 20m today for I-90/I-690/I-81).  Although I-86/NY 17 might "feel" faster due to the lack of backtracking in Syracuse.  Feel free to play around (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.0674162,-77.6370607/42.1150052,-75.8984141/@42.6048799,-77.6046359,8.52z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0?entry=ttu).

Indeed I already had, and that was the basis for my comment about east vs. west of I-390. Basically, going through Syracuse will likely still be faster from anywhere that requires backtracking to get to I-390, which is almost everywhere east of I-390 except for the parts of Rush/Henrietta with easy access to Exits 11-14


Quote from: vdeane on August 21, 2023, 08:35:05 PM
I would not expect traffic to take I-690 to BL 81 in large numbers.  Doing so will involve having to take a right and then a left, as there is no direct interchange on I-690 for BL 81 to/from the south.  Instead traffic will have to use the Crouse/Irving interchange a couple blocks away.  It would be easier to just take the Thruway to exit 36 if one wanted to use BL 81.

That makes sense, considering I-90 to I-690 to I-81 is already almost a toss-up vs. taking I-90 to I-81 directly (and the latter can even be preferable during the State Fair or if I-690 backs up approaching I-81, as it sometimes does on weekday mornings).  My only concern would be that BL 81 will feed into local streets north of I-690, so what will probably end up as a few extra signals may end up making it close to a wash.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on August 22, 2023, 12:46:03 PM
^ That's a good point, especially as it occurred to me that even staying on BL 81 has the left turn complication.  I guess this is part of how they're distributing traffic onto the street grid rather than incentivizing everyone to just stay on the boulevard.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on September 01, 2023, 10:22:16 AM
Travel advisory has gone out that the I-81 SB ramp to I-481 NB at the southern interchange (16) is now closed, with the new ramp scheduled to open in 2025.

This means Contract 2 is well underway.

Saw a rendering that the new connection between I-81 SB and BL 81 NB will have a roundabout in the middle for Brighton Ave...thought it was originally planned to be a signal.  Good thing.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 01, 2023, 11:41:08 AM
Are roundabouts common in New York State? I know there are plenty of traffic circles within the state, but what about roundabouts?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on September 01, 2023, 11:50:09 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 01, 2023, 11:41:08 AM
Are roundabouts common in New York State? I know there are plenty of traffic circles within the state, but what about roundabouts?
At some point, there was a delivery of Roundabout-flavored  Red Bull to NYSDOT, so plenty were built. Now supply run out, and NYSDOT is learning  how to use roundabouts properly.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on September 01, 2023, 01:54:26 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 01, 2023, 11:41:08 AM
Are roundabouts common in New York State? I know there are plenty of traffic circles within the state, but what about roundabouts?
In certain areas, yes.  Compared to MA, traffic circles are actually in shorter supply on average in NY.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Sam on September 03, 2023, 07:24:50 PM
https://www.aclu.org/news/racial-justice/racism-by-design-the-building-of-interstate-81
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on September 03, 2023, 08:02:14 PM
Quote from: Sam on September 03, 2023, 07:24:50 PM
https://www.aclu.org/news/racial-justice/racism-by-design-the-building-of-interstate-81
Wasn't that posted in this thread already?  The article was written to time with the current debate over what to do with the surplus land -- land NYSDOT no longer will need to own for a transportation purpose.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on September 20, 2023, 11:30:49 AM
I'm hearing that mileage-based exit numbering on I-81 may be implemented as early as next construction season (2024).

Now that I've said that out loud, I probably jinxed it.

(personal opinion expressed)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 20, 2023, 06:55:48 PM
Sweet!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on September 20, 2023, 07:52:48 PM
It will be interesting to see how that works, given that new I-81 southbound won't be traversable without a detour until 2025.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2024, 04:00:11 PM
Is there anything new to report on this thread?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 14, 2024, 04:23:29 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2024, 04:00:11 PM
Is there anything new to report on this thread?
No.  The first two contracts are progressing through construction, the third contract is still to be awarded, the fourth and fifth are still to be let and the rulings for the lawsuits determining if Phase 2 can proceed have not yet been issued.

Now that the project is in construction and the lawsuits expected to be in NYSDOT/FHWA's favor, there's not much to be reported on, other than progress of the construction.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on January 17, 2024, 10:28:18 AM
https://maps.app.goo.gl/jRAK4c8XREezWLk7A
I wonder if the control cities used at Exit 35 will be transferred over to this sign and Syracuse will finally be added as a primary control for Exit 35 once the routes are permanently changed.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on January 17, 2024, 01:55:44 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 17, 2024, 10:28:18 AM
https://maps.app.goo.gl/jRAK4c8XREezWLk7A
I wonder if the control cities used at Exit 35 will be transferred over to this sign and Syracuse will finally be added as a primary control for Exit 35 once the routes are permanently changed.

I think you mean Exit 36?  Syracuse is already in use at Exit 35.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on January 18, 2024, 04:01:56 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 17, 2024, 01:55:44 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 17, 2024, 10:28:18 AM
https://maps.app.goo.gl/jRAK4c8XREezWLk7A
I wonder if the control cities used at Exit 35 will be transferred over to this sign and Syracuse will finally be added as a primary control for Exit 35 once the routes are permanently changed.

I think you mean Exit 36?  Syracuse is already in use at Exit 35.

Yeah I meant that. I-81 should really have Syracuse anyway as it goes right to Downtown.  Binghamton is okay for now as it's the next major city south, but when I-481 becomes I-81, Binghamton will be more suited for Exit 34A.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 18, 2024, 07:11:05 PM
I'm going to choose control cities for the new signage that'll drive the ones obsessed with them nuts.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 18, 2024, 07:17:55 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 18, 2024, 07:11:05 PM
I'm going to choose control cities for the new signage that'll drive the ones obsessed with them nuts.
Limon?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Sam on January 18, 2024, 08:01:41 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 18, 2024, 07:11:05 PM
I'm going to choose control cities for the new signage that'll drive the ones obsessed with them nuts.
"Canada" and "Mall" ?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: cockroachking on January 18, 2024, 09:22:59 PM
Quote from: Sam on January 18, 2024, 08:01:41 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 18, 2024, 07:11:05 PM
I'm going to choose control cities for the new signage that'll drive the ones obsessed with them nuts.
"Canada" and "Mall" ?
Nah. "Bridge to Canada (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.7127476,-75.4498426,3a,15.3y,88.18h,87.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sviOJ_M4ED3Xetv66W19Nvw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en-US&entry=ttu)" and "Shopping Mall (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1197102,-75.9648264,3a,29.9y,290.79h,99.55t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s7NFuvCrAz5eBobKGUQ6aVw!2e0!5s20161101T000000!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en-US&entry=ttu)." NYSDOT precedent for both...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on January 18, 2024, 09:31:34 PM
Quote from: cockroachking on January 18, 2024, 09:22:59 PM
Quote from: Sam on January 18, 2024, 08:01:41 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 18, 2024, 07:11:05 PM
I'm going to choose control cities for the new signage that'll drive the ones obsessed with them nuts.
"Canada" and "Mall" ?
Nah. "Bridge to Canada (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.7127476,-75.4498426,3a,15.3y,88.18h,87.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sviOJ_M4ED3Xetv66W19Nvw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en-US&entry=ttu)" and "Shopping Mall (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1197102,-75.9648264,3a,29.9y,290.79h,99.55t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s7NFuvCrAz5eBobKGUQ6aVw!2e0!5s20161101T000000!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en-US&entry=ttu)." NYSDOT precedent for both...
Bridge to Canada. Last chance before you are screwed!
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: 74/171FAN on January 19, 2024, 07:30:30 AM
In Binghamton we also get "Industrial Park". (https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10219615778425534&set=a.10219615811826369)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53473805700_aacdff1ed0_c.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53472482077_428b3093aa_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on January 19, 2024, 04:27:14 PM
It's funny how a change in route number can justify the need to change a control city. Good example is how when the Western Kentucky Parkway became I-69 how the control city changed from Elizabethtown to Henderson.  Does the number change really change the driving habits?  Has the ADT changed since I-69 got implemented at the Western Kentucky and Penryville Parkways changed now that I-69 is routed from one parkway to another?


I'm sure those that have traveled the whole length of the WP are still doing that and haven't changed their start and endpoints cause a new route takes over. Those who have, let's say, driven from Princeton to Elizabethtown before I-69 are still doing it today, and, really, have more people begin to now drive from Eddyville to Evansville because they created a new interstate using two different previous freeways?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 19, 2024, 06:16:54 PM


Quote from: roadman65 on January 19, 2024, 04:27:14 PM
It's funny how a change in route number can justify the need to change a control city. Good example is how when the Western Kentucky Parkway became I-69 how the control city changed from Elizabethtown to Henderson.  Does the number change really change the driving habits?  Has the ADT changed since I-69 got implemented at the Western Kentucky and Penryville Parkways changed now that I-69 is routed from one parkway to another?


I'm sure those that have traveled the whole length of the WP are still doing that and haven't changed their start and endpoints cause a new route takes over. Those who have, let's say, driven from Princeton to Elizabethtown before I-69 are still doing it today, and, really, have more people begin to now drive from Eddyville to Evansville because they created a new interstate using two different previous freeways?

This is the I-81 thread.  Take more general comments on control cities to one of the many related threads on this forum.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on January 19, 2024, 06:55:39 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 19, 2024, 06:16:54 PM


Quote from: roadman65 on January 19, 2024, 04:27:14 PM
It's funny how a change in route number can justify the need to change a control city. Good example is how when the Western Kentucky Parkway became I-69 how the control city changed from Elizabethtown to Henderson.  Does the number change really change the driving habits?  Has the ADT changed since I-69 got implemented at the Western Kentucky and Penryville Parkways changed now that I-69 is routed from one parkway to another?


I'm sure those that have traveled the whole length of the WP are still doing that and haven't changed their start and endpoints cause a new route takes over. Those who have, let's say, driven from Princeton to Elizabethtown before I-69 are still doing it today, and, really, have more people begin to now drive from Eddyville to Evansville because they created a new interstate using two different previous freeways?

This is the I-81 thread.  Take more general comments on control cities to one of the many related threads on this forum.
You're not a moderator. So shut up!

I'm not the first one to derail a thread, plus this was a response to the previous comment on here. Now if the discussion went further, yes it's valid, but not for you to be a moderator even so. So mind your business.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on January 19, 2024, 10:53:30 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 19, 2024, 04:27:14 PM
It's funny how a change in route number can justify the need to change a control city. Good example is how when the Western Kentucky Parkway became I-69 how the control city changed from Elizabethtown to Henderson.  Does the number change really change the driving habits?  Has the ADT changed since I-69 got implemented at the Western Kentucky and Penryville Parkways changed now that I-69 is routed from one parkway to another?


I'm sure those that have traveled the whole length of the WP are still doing that and haven't changed their start and endpoints cause a new route takes over. Those who have, let's say, driven from Princeton to Elizabethtown before I-69 are still doing it today, and, really, have more people begin to now drive from Eddyville to Evansville because they created a new interstate using two different previous freeways?
Not going to touch the Kentucky stuff with a 10 foot pole (at least not in this thread), but with respect to I-81, given the removal of the viaduct, exit 36 won't exactly be a good way to get to Binghamton anymore, so hopefully the Thruway will update their control cities at some point.  Unfortunately the signage plans I found on the state's design-build site didn't show them doing so, but they also don't show things like I-81's new exit numbers outside the project area, so I can't imagine they're all-inclusive of everything that will happen.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 20, 2024, 09:42:11 AM
It irritates me to a disproportional amount that the I-81 exit numbering conversion has been split into multiple contracts.  I can see that it couldn't all fall under the main I-81 project due to probably complicating the EIS, but, altogether, there may be as many as four contracts to get the job done and they have to be coordinated/timed.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Scott5114 on January 20, 2024, 11:35:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 18, 2024, 07:11:05 PM
I'm going to choose control cities for the new signage that'll drive the ones obsessed with them nuts.

other Upstate Cities
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on January 20, 2024, 11:38:26 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 20, 2024, 11:35:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 18, 2024, 07:11:05 PM
I'm going to choose control cities for the new signage that'll drive the ones obsessed with them nuts.

other Upstate Cities
Other Upstate City
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: machias on February 08, 2024, 07:06:27 PM
I see NY 481 is the first roadway in Region 3 to be getting mile based interchange numbers. And good for them with the CR 57A shield.

https://www.dot.ny.gov/doing-business/opportunities/const-contract-docs?p_d_id=D265142

(https://jpnearl.com/upstatenyroads.com/aaroads/481-exit-11.png)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on February 08, 2024, 08:55:46 PM
^ Interesting that they aren't using the same numbers as shown in the I-81 design documents.  IMO future exit 1B/1C is the perfect example for why the new MUTCD standard banning the skipping of suffixes in one direction in the case of partial interchanges needs to be less strict.  Exit 10 no longer having the same number in each direction is going to be confusing.

Also interesting that the project doesn't show up on the NYSDOT Projects in Your Neighborhood tool at all.

EDIT: That projects page has bigger problems than that.  It's listing projects that have already finished as "in development".
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 08, 2024, 09:28:11 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 08, 2024, 08:55:46 PM
^ Interesting that they aren't using the same numbers as shown in the I-81 design documents.  IMO future exit 1B/1C is the perfect example for why the new MUTCD standard banning the skipping of suffixes in one direction in the case of partial interchanges needs to be less strict.  Exit 10 no longer having the same number in each direction is going to be confusing.

Also interesting that the project doesn't show up on the NYSDOT Projects in Your Neighborhood tool at all.

EDIT: That projects page has bigger problems than that.  It's listing projects that have already finished as "in development".
Meh.  These exits are outside of the I-81 project limits anyway.  I'm pretty certain 380673 had its own design approval.  I can check on that.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on February 08, 2024, 09:33:55 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 08, 2024, 09:28:11 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 08, 2024, 08:55:46 PM
^ Interesting that they aren't using the same numbers as shown in the I-81 design documents.  IMO future exit 1B/1C is the perfect example for why the new MUTCD standard banning the skipping of suffixes in one direction in the case of partial interchanges needs to be less strict.  Exit 10 no longer having the same number in each direction is going to be confusing.

Also interesting that the project doesn't show up on the NYSDOT Projects in Your Neighborhood tool at all.

EDIT: That projects page has bigger problems than that.  It's listing projects that have already finished as "in development".
Meh.  These exits are outside of the I-81 project limits anyway.  I'm pretty certain 380673 had its own design approval.  I can check on that.
Wouldn't some of the advance signage for exit 1B be within the I-81 project limits?  The sign plans for that show it as exit 2.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 08, 2024, 10:41:15 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 08, 2024, 09:33:55 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 08, 2024, 09:28:11 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 08, 2024, 08:55:46 PM
^ Interesting that they aren't using the same numbers as shown in the I-81 design documents.  IMO future exit 1B/1C is the perfect example for why the new MUTCD standard banning the skipping of suffixes in one direction in the case of partial interchanges needs to be less strict.  Exit 10 no longer having the same number in each direction is going to be confusing.

Also interesting that the project doesn't show up on the NYSDOT Projects in Your Neighborhood tool at all.

EDIT: That projects page has bigger problems than that.  It's listing projects that have already finished as "in development".
Meh.  These exits are outside of the I-81 project limits anyway.  I'm pretty certain 380673 had its own design approval.  I can check on that.
Wouldn't some of the advance signage for exit 1B be within the I-81 project limits?  The sign plans for that show it as exit 2.

Sure, right at the northern interchange, but Contract 1 doesn't go much further up NY 481 than the onramps from current I-81.  There was a lot of discussion over whether Circle Drive was even going to be within that contract's limits in the end, let alone signage way out in Phoenix.

(Personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 09, 2024, 08:30:56 AM
And, yep, the ground mounted signs contract had its own design approval separate from I-81's FEIS.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Flyer78 on February 09, 2024, 10:41:17 AM
Random thoughts on the plans:

--Nice to see street names on the intersection ahead (W2-*) signs.
--RIP Great Northern Mall guide sign.
--Nice to see directions being added to reassurance touring route markers.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on February 09, 2024, 12:23:15 PM
I had no idea that NY 481 was going to also have its exits renumbered to mileage-based along with Interstate 81/future Business 81/Interstate 690 (and hopefully, NY 690 as well). Wikipedia's NY 481 page has been updated to show the new exit numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Route_481#Major_intersections, and I agree that the northern Interstate 81/future Business 81 interchange should be 481's mile 0.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 16, 2024, 03:57:55 PM
Dang, did we not report that the State lawsuit was ruled in NYSDOT's favor and the contracts are rolling forward   Detailed design is now authorized for Phase 2, I believe and all remaining Phase 1 contracts (3, 4, 5) are set to be awarded by early summer.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: seicer on February 16, 2024, 04:11:34 PM
^ Good news!

NY state is free to tear down I-81 in Syracuse, appeals court rules (https://www.syracuse.com/news/2024/02/ny-state-is-free-to-tear-down-i-81-in-syracuse-appeals-court-rules.html)

A New York appeals court today dismissed a legal challenge to the I-81 project in Syracuse, clearing the way for the state to tear down the highway viaduct that runs through the city.

The state Supreme Court's Appellate Division for the Fourth Department overturned a year-old decision by a Syracuse judge that the state Department of Transportation must complete additional environmental studies before the viaduct can be removed. The five judges were unanimous in the decision.

State Supreme Court Justice Gerard Neri ruled in February 2023 that the DOT must study factors including the traffic impact of Micron Technology's planned microchip complex. The appeals court overturned Neri's order.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on February 16, 2024, 09:19:08 PM
↓bad news.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on February 16, 2024, 09:37:43 PM
It was inevitable that the viaduct would come down after the "Community Grid" alternative was chosen. Renew 81 for All is fighting a lost cause. Let's hope removing the viaduct doesn't make traffic congestion in the area worse.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 16, 2024, 10:04:41 PM
^^^ yeah, I have to applaud renew 81. They really tried and stuck with it.

Quote from: Alps on February 16, 2024, 09:19:08 PM
↓bad news.
Agreed. I'm gonna say it again, and I'll keep beating this dead horse just like I will with the 710 tunnel in Los Angeles. Ideal scenario they build a tunnel or at least keep Land available for a portal down the line. in the meantime, they could have temporary uses for it like food truck parking or some kind of recreational site. And typical American fashion if tunnels are too much to bear then they can just rebuild the viaduct.

But unsurprisingly, they chose the worst possible option.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on February 16, 2024, 10:45:54 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 16, 2024, 10:04:41 PM
But unsurprisingly, they chose the worst possible option.
It's New York, so I expect no less.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Henry on February 16, 2024, 11:16:53 PM
I see downtown Syracuse becoming a traffic nightmare, now that I-81 will be no more. But on the flip side, I'm excited to see the new mile-based exits being implemented on the reworked routing.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 01:18:09 AM
Actually, I've heard that the City of Syracuse requesting Almond St to go down to one lane in each direction amongst other things at this very late point (maybe changing where ramps from BL-81 SB come into downtown).  I don't think NYSDOT will go that far on this one, especially with the FEIS set in stone.

So, for those people predicting doom and gloom, it'll be interesting to see what happens.

And Panda, that dead horse of the tunnel is stinking to high heaven.  Even the Save 81 or Renew 81 people or whoever else is opposed to tearing down the viaduct would shake their heads at you and dismiss you out of hand at this point.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2024, 03:03:48 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 01:18:09 AM
And Panda, that dead horse of the tunnel is stinking to high heaven.  Even the Save 81 or Renew 81 people or whoever else is opposed to tearing down the viaduct would shake their heads at you and dismiss you out of hand at this point.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Yeah yeah this is the US after all where new tunnels are a no no.

Oh and god forbid we just put aside some ROW. THE HORROR! Yeah let's not take forward thought looking towards the future credible. Checks out.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on February 17, 2024, 06:44:54 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2024, 03:03:48 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 01:18:09 AM
And Panda, that dead horse of the tunnel is stinking to high heaven.  Even the Save 81 or Renew 81 people or whoever else is opposed to tearing down the viaduct would shake their heads at you and dismiss you out of hand at this point.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Yeah yeah this is the US after all where new tunnels are a no no.

Oh and god forbid we just put aside some ROW. THE HORROR! Yeah let's not take forward thought looking towards the future credible. Checks out.
More like it's US, where general public doesn't understand concepts like "water table is too high" or "technical report is just 50 pages, lok it through before bed"
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 10:15:00 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 17, 2024, 06:44:54 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2024, 03:03:48 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 01:18:09 AM
And Panda, that dead horse of the tunnel is stinking to high heaven.  Even the Save 81 or Renew 81 people or whoever else is opposed to tearing down the viaduct would shake their heads at you and dismiss you out of hand at this point.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Yeah yeah this is the US after all where new tunnels are a no no.

Oh and god forbid we just put aside some ROW. THE HORROR! Yeah let's not take forward thought looking towards the future credible. Checks out.
More like it's US, where general public doesn't understand concepts like "water table is too high" or "technical report is just 50 pages, lok it through before bed"
Or, "Buying up that much ROW in downtown Syracuse is outright idiotic due to the businesses and other opportunities that would need to be taken."

I mean, I suspect the economic benefits of the Grid have been exaggerated (i.e., no, there won't be that much more land made available along Almond St), but blowing out enough land for the tunnel, access points and portals would be truly disastrous for the city.  Everyone, but a slim minority of people ignorant of the true effects a tunnel would have on Syracuse, has come to an agreement on this point.

People also still seem to minimizing the positive effect of the reconstruction of I-690 and the reconfiguration of the downtown interchanges.  I really don't see Almond St becoming a traffic nightmare at the end.  Rather, as discussed extensively by this point, people will be grumbling about taking the longer route around the new I-81, going from south to west and vice versa.

I mean, Syracuse has a small rush hour as is.  It's not like that's going to change, even with Micron coming.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Bobby5280 on February 17, 2024, 12:33:50 PM
Syracuse isn't all that big of a city. Its population growth trend has been fairly stagnant for the past 40 years. Upstate NY is beautiful in the summer, but wow, winter really sucks ass there. It's not exactly a place where spending billions of dollars on an urban tunnel would be a good idea.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Alps on February 17, 2024, 01:09:18 PM
The tunnel is a fantastic option, but too costly to be considered. But ideally, all urban freeways would be emtunnelled so the city is unemfreewayed.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on February 17, 2024, 01:12:24 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 17, 2024, 01:09:18 PM
The tunnel is a fantastic option, but too costly to be considered. But ideally, all urban freeways would be emtunnelled so the city is unemfreewayed.
We talked a lot about it up thread. Too difficult in Syracuse soil. Not everything is a rock like Manhattan...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on February 17, 2024, 01:20:49 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 17, 2024, 01:12:24 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 17, 2024, 01:09:18 PM
The tunnel is a fantastic option, but too costly to be considered. But ideally, all urban freeways would be emtunnelled so the city is unemfreewayed.
We talked a lot about it up thread. Too difficult in Syracuse soil. Not everything is a rock like Manhattan...

What's ideal and what's real are two different things.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on February 17, 2024, 04:27:58 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 10:15:00 AM
I mean, Syracuse has a small rush hour as is.  It's not like that's going to change, even with Micron coming.
Removing I-81 even improve rush hour since, checking Google Maps, the usual traffic appears to be cause by all the downtown traffic from I-81 and I-690 funneling down to a single lane onto Almond Street.  That bottleneck will be disappearing.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on February 17, 2024, 05:31:59 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on February 17, 2024, 01:20:49 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 17, 2024, 01:12:24 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 17, 2024, 01:09:18 PM
The tunnel is a fantastic option, but too costly to be considered. But ideally, all urban freeways would be emtunnelled so the city is unemfreewayed.
We talked a lot about it up thread. Too difficult in Syracuse soil. Not everything is a rock like Manhattan...

What's ideal and what's real are two different things.
There are many other words which can be used. Plausible, realistic, cost effective....
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on February 17, 2024, 11:00:13 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 17, 2024, 04:27:58 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 10:15:00 AM
I mean, Syracuse has a small rush hour as is.  It's not like that's going to change, even with Micron coming.
Removing I-81 even improve rush hour since, checking Google Maps, the usual traffic appears to be cause by all the downtown traffic from I-81 and I-690 funneling down to a single lane onto Almond Street.  That bottleneck will be disappearing.

Oh, if you're looking just at freeway congestion, that's limited now and will be likely even less with no I-81 and mostly positive changes coming to I-690.

We won't be regularly seeing red on Google Maps anytime soon, but that was never the issue with the teardown. For commuters, it's the switch from freeway to surface streets (backwards) and for anyone traveling longer-distance, it's the addition of anywhere from 3 to 10 minutes travel time to stay on the freeway (backwards).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:10:24 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 17, 2024, 11:00:13 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 17, 2024, 04:27:58 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 10:15:00 AM
I mean, Syracuse has a small rush hour as is.  It's not like that's going to change, even with Micron coming.
Removing I-81 even improve rush hour since, checking Google Maps, the usual traffic appears to be cause by all the downtown traffic from I-81 and I-690 funneling down to a single lane onto Almond Street.  That bottleneck will be disappearing.

Oh, if you're looking just at freeway congestion, that's limited now and will be likely even less with no I-81 and mostly positive changes coming to I-690.

We won't be regularly seeing red on Google Maps anytime soon, but that was never the issue with the teardown. For commuters, it's the switch from freeway to surface streets (backwards) and for anyone traveling longer-distance, it's the addition of anywhere from 3 to 10 minutes travel time to stay on the freeway (backwards).
Not anyone.  The Thruway will remain unchanged...
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:33:04 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 17, 2024, 01:09:18 PM
The tunnel is a fantastic option, but too costly to be considered. But ideally, all urban freeways would be emtunnelled so the city is unemfreewayed.
Extending tunnels when urban areas grow would be a tricky endeavor.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2024, 11:51:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:33:04 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 17, 2024, 01:09:18 PM
The tunnel is a fantastic option, but too costly to be considered. But ideally, all urban freeways would be emtunnelled so the city is unemfreewayed.
Extending tunnels when urban areas grow would be a tricky endeavor.
Tunnels in general, would be a tricky endeavor to build an urban areas. But we're not gonna get better at building them by not building any.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:53:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2024, 11:51:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:33:04 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 17, 2024, 01:09:18 PM
The tunnel is a fantastic option, but too costly to be considered. But ideally, all urban freeways would be emtunnelled so the city is unemfreewayed.
Extending tunnels when urban areas grow would be a tricky endeavor.
Tunnels in general, would be a tricky endeavor to build an urban areas. But we're not gonna get better at building them by not building any.
They're being built when they're considered the best alternative through the project development process dictated by FHWA.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on February 17, 2024, 11:55:33 PM
Not only is a tunnel a dead horse, but it was already studied ad nauseam.  And from a purely technical perspective, a tunnel wouldn't work for the simple fact that providing access between 690 and a tunneled 81 to/from the south would have impacted and closed WAY TOO MANY east-west streets (basically every street from Genessee to Erie Blvd) due to the grade changes.  Plus there just isn't enough through traffic from south of Almond St to north of 690 to warrant a "through tunnel" that would avoid the access-to-690 complications (such a tunnel was suggested by local legislators previously).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on February 18, 2024, 12:16:17 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:10:24 PM
Quote
Oh, if you're looking just at freeway congestion, that's limited now and will be likely even less with no I-81 and mostly positive changes coming to I-690.

We won't be regularly seeing red on Google Maps anytime soon, but that was never the issue with the teardown. For commuters, it's the switch from freeway to surface streets (backwards) and for anyone traveling longer-distance, it's the addition of anywhere from 3 to 10 minutes travel time to stay on the freeway (backwards).
Not anyone.  The Thruway will remain unchanged...
Not sure he mentioned anything about the Thruway?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 12:25:03 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:53:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2024, 11:51:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:33:04 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 17, 2024, 01:09:18 PM
The tunnel is a fantastic option, but too costly to be considered. But ideally, all urban freeways would be emtunnelled so the city is unemfreewayed.
Extending tunnels when urban areas grow would be a tricky endeavor.
Tunnels in general, would be a tricky endeavor to build an urban areas. But we're not gonna get better at building them by not building any.
They're being built when they're considered the best alternative through the project development process dictated by FHWA.
Lol no they're not.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on February 18, 2024, 07:42:34 AM
Quote from: webny99 on February 17, 2024, 11:00:13 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 17, 2024, 04:27:58 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 10:15:00 AM
I mean, Syracuse has a small rush hour as is.  It's not like that's going to change, even with Micron coming.
Removing I-81 even improve rush hour since, checking Google Maps, the usual traffic appears to be cause by all the downtown traffic from I-81 and I-690 funneling down to a single lane onto Almond Street.  That bottleneck will be disappearing.

Oh, if you're looking just at freeway congestion, that's limited now and will be likely even less with no I-81 and mostly positive changes coming to I-690.

We won't be regularly seeing red on Google Maps anytime soon, but that was never the issue with the teardown. For commuters, it's the switch from freeway to surface streets (backwards) and for anyone traveling longer-distance, it's the addition of anywhere from 3 to 10 minutes travel time to stay on the freeway (backwards).
Eh, it's not that big a change for commuters, given that they were all getting off at exit 18 anyways.  A few more blocks is all, and not all going down to one street should help.  Agreed about the longer distance traffic, especially as there will be no time savings for taking BL 81 through due to a combination of lights and lack of direct access from I-690.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 18, 2024, 07:53:55 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 12:25:03 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:53:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2024, 11:51:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:33:04 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 17, 2024, 01:09:18 PM
The tunnel is a fantastic option, but too costly to be considered. But ideally, all urban freeways would be emtunnelled so the city is unemfreewayed.
Extending tunnels when urban areas grow would be a tricky endeavor.
Tunnels in general, would be a tricky endeavor to build an urban areas. But we're not gonna get better at building them by not building any.
They're being built when they're considered the best alternative through the project development process dictated by FHWA.
Lol no they're not.
Seattle says hello.

Yes, they are.  As has been pointed out ad nauseam in this thread, there are a whole lot of considerations other than mere cost when it comes to deciding on a tunnel.

Let me know when you've read the alternative analysis for I-81, or any other project (see practically any bridge rehab or replacement project's design approval document).  Or, demonstrate you have even endeavored to understand the process.

Otherwise, you're just hollering out of ignorance.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on February 18, 2024, 10:54:47 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 18, 2024, 12:16:17 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:10:24 PM
Quote
Oh, if you're looking just at freeway congestion, that's limited now and will be likely even less with no I-81 and mostly positive changes coming to I-690.

We won't be regularly seeing red on Google Maps anytime soon, but that was never the issue with the teardown. For commuters, it's the switch from freeway to surface streets (backwards) and for anyone traveling longer-distance, it's the addition of anywhere from 3 to 10 minutes travel time to stay on the freeway (backwards).
Not anyone.  The Thruway will remain unchanged...
Not sure he mentioned anything about the Thruway?

Yes, just to clarify I meant through traffic that currently uses the viaduct (mostly I-81 thru traffic and I-81 to I-690 and I-90 to/from the west).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Bobby5280 on February 18, 2024, 11:04:48 AM
Seattle is a far larger (and more prosperous) city than Syracuse. The 2 mile tunnel cost over $3 billion to build and the process took 8 long years, thanks in part to unforeseen "curve balls" thrown at the project along the way, causing years of delays. Seattle's new tunnel wasn't a debacle like the Big Dig in Boston, but it's hardly any kind of success story either. The resulting tunnel only has a pair of 2-lane roads double decked on top of each other. The tunnel's North end doesn't connect to another freeway, such as I-5.

I'm not sure what the after effects will be from the removal of I-81 in Syracuse's downtown area. With no more elevated freeway working as a barrier, will students at Syracuse University be getting mugged, beaten up (or worse) more often? Or does that make any difference? Destiny USA has had all sorts of problems with crime and it's a very car-oriented location. Maybe the other plan is gentrification -replace all that project housing near the University with a bunch of new yuppie condos.

It's possible the area South of downtown could suffer economically due to I-81 being diverted. The area is mostly residential. Anyone wanting to build new commercial businesses would probably want to locate on the West or North sides of town still served by a thru Interstate.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on February 18, 2024, 11:19:42 AM
Syracuse is likely too small of a city to warrant constructing a tunnel. If the soon-to-be-demolished viaduct had been built in a city with a population of 1 million people, then maybe replacing it with a tunnel might be practical. If one wants to talk about a tunnel in the Syracuse area, start a thread in Fictional Highways.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: sprjus4 on February 18, 2024, 11:25:11 AM
Perhaps a more realistic proposal would be a western arc, an outer freeway connecting I-81 South to I-90 West... that would address the soon-to-be-severed I-81 -> I-690 connection.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on February 18, 2024, 11:49:43 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 18, 2024, 11:04:48 AM
Seattle is a far larger (and more prosperous) city than Syracuse. The 2 mile tunnel cost over $3 billion to build and the process took 8 long years, thanks in part to unforeseen "curve balls" thrown at the project along the way, causing years of delays. Seattle's new tunnel wasn't a debacle like the Big Dig in Boston, but it's hardly any kind of success story either. The resulting tunnel only has a pair of 2-lane roads double decked on top of each other. The tunnel's North end doesn't connect to another freeway, such as I-5.

I'm not sure what the after effects will be from the removal of I-81 in Syracuse's downtown area. With no more elevated freeway working as a barrier, will students at Syracuse University be getting mugged, beaten up (or worse) more often? Or does that make any difference? Destiny USA has had all sorts of problems with crime and it's a very car-oriented location. Maybe the other plan is gentrification -replace all that project housing near the University with a bunch of new yuppie condos.

It's possible the area South of downtown could suffer economically due to I-81 being diverted. The area is mostly residential. Anyone wanting to build new commercial businesses would probably want to locate on the West or North sides of town still served by a thru Interstate.
Compare that with 2.2 billion for 2-mile viaduct removal and associated projects. Before inevitable overruns. In a less than 0.7M area.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on February 18, 2024, 01:01:45 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 18, 2024, 11:25:11 AM
Perhaps a more realistic proposal would be a western arc, an outer freeway connecting I-81 South to I-90 West... that would address the soon-to-be-severed I-81 -> I-690 connection.

I would love to see NY 695 extended south/east via the NY 5 freeway stub to meet I-81 somewhere near the current I-481 junction, but that is unfortunately fictional at this point. The first mile or so has a really clear path, and there's a foreseeable route north of and parallel to NY 173 as far as Onondaga Hill, but the last mile or two west of I-81 is where it gets really thorny. There's significant terrain in that area too; Syracuse's southernmost neighborhood, Valley, is aptly named.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Bobby5280 on February 18, 2024, 03:51:00 PM
The NY-695 and NY-5 freeway stubs on the West side of Syracuse are failed projects of what could have been longer freeways. I lived in that area during the early 1980's and those freeway stubs were there even back then. I don't know the history of I-481, but I suspect there was some plan for a SW quadrant that would have connected into where the NY-5 freeway stub ends at Genesee Street.

There is too much residential development between the I-81/I-481 interchange and that NY-695 freeway for any new freeway to connect the two. Any partial loop going West of I-81 to I-90 would have to start a few miles South of the existing I-81/I-481 interchange. The route would have to bow out past Camillus and connect with I-90 several miles West of the I-90/I-690 interchange. Is such a route even worthwhile to build?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on February 18, 2024, 04:45:35 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 18, 2024, 03:51:00 PM
There is too much residential development between the I-81/I-481 interchange and that NY-695 freeway for any new freeway to connect the two. Any partial loop going West of I-81 to I-90 would have to start a few miles South of the existing I-81/I-481 interchange. The route would have to bow out past Camillus and connect with I-90 several miles West of the I-90/I-690 interchange. Is such a route even worthwhile to build?

I agree that it would probably have to start south of I-81/I-481, but disagree that it could not connect to the NY 5 stub north of Wegmans in Fairmount. Below is a very primitive potential routing - the solid line is a reasonable route that does not require excessive property takings, and the dotted lines are some potential options for tying into I-81. Seeing as I agree that a direct tie-in to I-81/I-481 is likely not feasible, I included a second dotted line that veers south of Onondaga Hill. That would have to tie in further south, but that would not eliminate its utility as a bypass.

(https://imgur.com/DC9Fr3c.jpg)
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracu
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 07:11:05 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2024, 07:53:55 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 12:25:03 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:53:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2024, 11:51:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:33:04 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 17, 2024, 01:09:18 PM
The tunnel is a fantastic option, but too costly to be considered. But ideally, all urban freeways would be emtunnelled so the city is unemfreewayed.
Extending tunnels when urban areas grow would be a tricky endeavor.
Tunnels in general, would be a tricky endeavor to build an urban areas. But we're not gonna get better at building them by not building any.
They're being built when they're considered the best alternative through the project development process dictated by FHWA.
Lol no they're not.
Seattle says hello.

Yes, they are.  As has been pointed out ad nauseam in this thread, there are a whole lot of considerations other than mere cost when it comes to deciding on a tunnel.

Let me know when you've read the alternative analysis for I-81, or any other project (see practically any bridge rehab or replacement project's design approval document).  Or, demonstrate you have even endeavored to understand the process.

Otherwise, you're just hollering out of ignorance.
Oh wow, you managed to come up with the predictable example, which is the anomaly to the rule. I would've never of guessed you would bring up the Alaskan Way tunnel. Next thing you know you'll be talking about the big dig. If six or so, miles of tunnel in the last several decades and no more tunnels planned in the future is your idea of them being built in this country, then have fun living in a fantasy land and perpetuating the status quo here. Otherwise you're just arguing over petty semantics.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracu
Post by: kalvado on February 18, 2024, 07:17:43 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 07:11:05 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2024, 07:53:55 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 12:25:03 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:53:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2024, 11:51:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:33:04 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 17, 2024, 01:09:18 PM
The tunnel is a fantastic option, but too costly to be considered. But ideally, all urban freeways would be emtunnelled so the city is unemfreewayed.
Extending tunnels when urban areas grow would be a tricky endeavor.
Tunnels in general, would be a tricky endeavor to build an urban areas. But we're not gonna get better at building them by not building any.
They're being built when they're considered the best alternative through the project development process dictated by FHWA.
Lol no they're not.
Seattle says hello.

Yes, they are.  As has been pointed out ad nauseam in this thread, there are a whole lot of considerations other than mere cost when it comes to deciding on a tunnel.

Let me know when you've read the alternative analysis for I-81, or any other project (see practically any bridge rehab or replacement project's design approval document).  Or, demonstrate you have even endeavored to understand the process.

Otherwise, you're just hollering out of ignorance.
Oh wow, you managed to come up with the predictable example, which is the anomaly to the rule. I would've never of guessed you would bring up the Alaskan Way tunnel. Next thing you know you'll be talking about the big dig. If six or so, miles of tunnel in the last several decades and no more tunnels planned in the future is your idea of them being built in this country, then have fun living in a fantasy land and perpetuating the status quo here. Otherwise you're just arguing over petty semantics.
At the very least, there is a new subway line and underwater Amtrak tunnel in NYC. Costs are, frankly speaking, well beyond affordable and exceed eye popping threshold by a very wide margin.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syrac
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 07:24:11 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 18, 2024, 07:17:43 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 07:11:05 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2024, 07:53:55 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 12:25:03 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:53:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2024, 11:51:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:33:04 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 17, 2024, 01:09:18 PM
The tunnel is a fantastic option, but too costly to be considered. But ideally, all urban freeways would be emtunnelled so the city is unemfreewayed.
Extending tunnels when urban areas grow would be a tricky endeavor.
Tunnels in general, would be a tricky endeavor to build an urban areas. But we're not gonna get better at building them by not building any.
They're being built when they're considered the best alternative through the project development process dictated by FHWA.
Lol no they're not.
Seattle says hello.

Yes, they are.  As has been pointed out ad nauseam in this thread, there are a whole lot of considerations other than mere cost when it comes to deciding on a tunnel.

Let me know when you've read the alternative analysis for I-81, or any other project (see practically any bridge rehab or replacement project's design approval document).  Or, demonstrate you have even endeavored to understand the process.

Otherwise, you're just hollering out of ignorance.
Oh wow, you managed to come up with the predictable example, which is the anomaly to the rule. I would've never of guessed you would bring up the Alaskan Way tunnel. Next thing you know you'll be talking about the big dig. If six or so, miles of tunnel in the last several decades and no more tunnels planned in the future is your idea of them being built in this country, then have fun living in a fantasy land and perpetuating the status quo here. Otherwise you're just arguing over petty semantics.
At the very least, there is a new subway line and underwater Amtrak tunnel in NYC. Costs are, frankly speaking, well beyond affordable and exceed eye popping threshold by a very wide margin.
I'm specifically referring to road tunnels. For whatever reason this country cannot build road titles, they are a few and far between. But there are dozens if not over 100 Different Rd. tunnel projects going on in the world. Other countries don't bat an eye being able to build them. It's also very telling just how defensive people seem to get, which is on full display in this thread whenever you dare suggest a tunnel was a viable and reasonable option. or when you say you know what maybe the city isn't ready for a tunnel right now but let's just preserve a little right away which would be a very small amount of land downtown and you still have the same usual suspects, again, on full force in this thread, losing their minds and being overly dramatic and their responses trying to convince themselves it shouldn't happen.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syrac
Post by: kalvado on February 18, 2024, 07:49:54 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 07:24:11 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 18, 2024, 07:17:43 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 07:11:05 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2024, 07:53:55 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 12:25:03 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:53:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2024, 11:51:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:33:04 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 17, 2024, 01:09:18 PM
The tunnel is a fantastic option, but too costly to be considered. But ideally, all urban freeways would be emtunnelled so the city is unemfreewayed.
Extending tunnels when urban areas grow would be a tricky endeavor.
Tunnels in general, would be a tricky endeavor to build an urban areas. But we're not gonna get better at building them by not building any.
They're being built when they're considered the best alternative through the project development process dictated by FHWA.
Lol no they're not.
Seattle says hello.

Yes, they are.  As has been pointed out ad nauseam in this thread, there are a whole lot of considerations other than mere cost when it comes to deciding on a tunnel.

Let me know when you've read the alternative analysis for I-81, or any other project (see practically any bridge rehab or replacement project's design approval document).  Or, demonstrate you have even endeavored to understand the process.

Otherwise, you're just hollering out of ignorance.
Oh wow, you managed to come up with the predictable example, which is the anomaly to the rule. I would've never of guessed you would bring up the Alaskan Way tunnel. Next thing you know you'll be talking about the big dig. If six or so, miles of tunnel in the last several decades and no more tunnels planned in the future is your idea of them being built in this country, then have fun living in a fantasy land and perpetuating the status quo here. Otherwise you're just arguing over petty semantics.
At the very least, there is a new subway line and underwater Amtrak tunnel in NYC. Costs are, frankly speaking, well beyond affordable and exceed eye popping threshold by a very wide margin.
I'm specifically referring to road tunnels. For whatever reason this country cannot build road titles, they are a few and far between. But there are dozens if not over 100 Different Rd. tunnel projects going on in the world. Other countries don't bat an eye being able to build them. It's also very telling just how defensive people seem to get, which is on full display in this thread whenever you dare suggest a tunnel was a viable and reasonable option. or when you say you know what maybe the city isn't ready for a tunnel right now but let's just preserve a little right away which would be a very small amount of land downtown and you still have the same usual suspects, again, on full force in this thread, losing their minds and being overly dramatic and their responses trying to convince themselves it shouldn't happen.
If you notice, I am not talking about ROW, just complexity due to high water table and associated costs. And I doubt that things are way different for different flavors of tunnels.
But costs quoted for the tunnel are in line with other estimates, making thing prohibitive cost-wise. Which means it's not viable.
Well, even existing plan is prohibitive, but it's one of those "must do" things after all.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Bobby5280 on February 18, 2024, 08:04:37 PM
Quote from: webny99I agree that it would probably have to start south of I-81/I-481, but disagree that it could not connect to the NY 5 stub north of Wegmans in Fairmount. Below is a very primitive potential routing - the solid line is a reasonable route that does not require excessive property takings, and the dotted lines are some potential options for tying into I-81.

There is quite a lot of residential properties directly South of that NY-5 freeway stub. I think if it had been feasible at all to build a freeway loop quadrant from that point down to I-81 it would have happened back in the 1970's. Such a thing is not even remotely possible now. Not with housing prices being so hatefully expensive. The extreme pricing does everything it can to make home owners stay put in their current digs at all costs.

Decades ago it might have been preferable to build a new freeway by plowing a new terrain path through some residential neighborhoods to avoid displacing businesses along an existing surface highway. The reverse is true now. America's commercial real estate industry is falling into a state of crisis (especially in major cities like New York). The Amazons of the Internet have laid waste to brick and mortar retail. So there's a bunch of commercial property owners just dying to sell. Today it's far more complicated, both in legal and political terms, to force people out of their homes at "fair market value" to make way for a freeway.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: The Ghostbuster on February 18, 2024, 08:12:08 PM
Is it likely that the NY 5 freeway might eventually be demolished, and the NY 5 designation be returned to the Genesee St. corridor?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: vdeane on February 18, 2024, 08:58:02 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 18, 2024, 08:04:37 PM
Quote from: webny99I agree that it would probably have to start south of I-81/I-481, but disagree that it could not connect to the NY 5 stub north of Wegmans in Fairmount. Below is a very primitive potential routing - the solid line is a reasonable route that does not require excessive property takings, and the dotted lines are some potential options for tying into I-81.

There is quite a lot of residential properties directly South of that NY-5 freeway stub. I think it had been feasible at all to build a freeway loop quadrant from that point down to I-81 it would have happened back in the 1970's. Such a thing is not even remotely possible now. Not with housing prices being so hatefully expensive. The extreme pricing does everything it can to make home owners stay put in their current digs at all costs.

Decades ago it might have been preferable to build a new freeway by plowing a new terrain path through some residential neighborhoods to avoid displacing businesses along an existing surface highway. The reverse is true now. America's commercial real estate industry is falling into a state of crisis (especially in major cities like New York). The Amazons of the Internet has laid waste to brick and mortar retail. So there's a bunch of commercial property owners just dying to sell. Today it's far more complicated, both in legal and political terms, to force people out of their homes at "fair market value" to make way for a freeway.
There are gaps with lighter development that looks kinda like ROW, as if it was preserved for a while and development filled in later.  The bigger issues are:
1. Continuing south of the stub would take out the Wegmans loading area
2. Development is continuous along I-81 all the way to the Onondaga Nation Reservation.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 07:24:11 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 18, 2024, 07:17:43 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 07:11:05 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2024, 07:53:55 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 12:25:03 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:53:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2024, 11:51:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:33:04 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 17, 2024, 01:09:18 PM
The tunnel is a fantastic option, but too costly to be considered. But ideally, all urban freeways would be emtunnelled so the city is unemfreewayed.
Extending tunnels when urban areas grow would be a tricky endeavor.
Tunnels in general, would be a tricky endeavor to build an urban areas. But we're not gonna get better at building them by not building any.
They're being built when they're considered the best alternative through the project development process dictated by FHWA.
Lol no they're not.
Seattle says hello.

Yes, they are.  As has been pointed out ad nauseam in this thread, there are a whole lot of considerations other than mere cost when it comes to deciding on a tunnel.

Let me know when you've read the alternative analysis for I-81, or any other project (see practically any bridge rehab or replacement project's design approval document).  Or, demonstrate you have even endeavored to understand the process.

Otherwise, you're just hollering out of ignorance.
Oh wow, you managed to come up with the predictable example, which is the anomaly to the rule. I would've never of guessed you would bring up the Alaskan Way tunnel. Next thing you know you'll be talking about the big dig. If six or so, miles of tunnel in the last several decades and no more tunnels planned in the future is your idea of them being built in this country, then have fun living in a fantasy land and perpetuating the status quo here. Otherwise you're just arguing over petty semantics.
At the very least, there is a new subway line and underwater Amtrak tunnel in NYC. Costs are, frankly speaking, well beyond affordable and exceed eye popping threshold by a very wide margin.
I'm specifically referring to road tunnels. For whatever reason this country cannot build road titles, they are a few and far between. But there are dozens if not over 100 Different Rd. tunnel projects going on in the world. Other countries don't bat an eye being able to build them. It's also very telling just how defensive people seem to get, which is on full display in this thread whenever you dare suggest a tunnel was a viable and reasonable option. or when you say you know what maybe the city isn't ready for a tunnel right now but let's just preserve a little right away which would be a very small amount of land downtown and you still have the same usual suspects, again, on full force in this thread, losing their minds and being overly dramatic and their responses trying to convince themselves it shouldn't happen.
The water table is 2 damn high!



Seriously, why is that so hard to get?  Different areas have different conditions.  Syracuse just isn't a great candidate, even setting aside the very high cost and that NY can't afford it.  Especially since Syracuse is quite small and isn't going to become a busting metropolis.  The size of the freeway system may make it feel comparable to Rochester and Buffalo, but in some ways it actually has more in common with Utica (in truth, it's in between).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 09:01:02 PM
All you have to do is a quick Google search and there is a plethora of different links from many different sources, explaining how to build underground construction projects and high water areas. The high water table argument doesn't seem to be very valid.

https://utilitiesone.com/addressing-challenges-of-underground-construction-in-high-water-table-areas
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on February 18, 2024, 09:11:15 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 18, 2024, 08:12:08 PM
Is it likely that the NY 5 freeway might eventually be demolished, and the NY 5 designation be returned to the Genesee St. corridor?

Why would it be demolished? It serves thru traffic between Syracuse and Auburn plus several of the western suburbs, and provides a vital connection to the rest of the freeway network via NY 695. And it's six lanes east of Camillus! The traffic issues that would cause on Genesee St makes removal a non-starter.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on February 18, 2024, 09:13:38 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 09:01:02 PM
All you have to do is a quick Google search and there is a plethora of different links from many different sources, explaining how to build underground construction projects and high water areas. The high water table argument doesn't seem to be very valid.

https://utilitiesone.com/addressing-challenges-of-underground-construction-in-high-water-table-areas
Sure it's possible... In theory. Time machine and perpetuum mobile are fundamentally impossible - and that's not the problem grade we are talking about. It's a matter of complexity (cost and construction time) and reliability (cost of maintenance).
Sometimes it's just wiser to look at other options than to pay through the nose.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 09:27:40 PM
Maybe but my larger point is this reason of "oh it's too expensive" is just used too much when so many other countries somehow find a way to do it. Tunnels are also better than cutting through mountains allowing wildlife to cross as well. It allows for better connectivity in urban settings while also allowing for regional car travel. This type of stuff needs to be factored in as well.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on February 18, 2024, 09:34:22 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 09:27:40 PM
Maybe but my larger point is this reason of "oh it's too expensive" is just used too much when so many other countries somehow find a way to do it. Tunnels are also better than cutting through mountains allowing wildlife to cross as well. It allows for better connectivity in urban settings while also allowing for regional car travel. This type of stuff needs to be factored in as well.
Well, you are somewhat right here. It's not limited to roads, just today I saw an article talking about building semiconductor fab in US taking much longer than elsewhere.
My opinion here is pretty strong, but political discussions are not welcomed on this forum. Let's just put it so - I don't see a way to correct this situation without supermajor changes to political structure.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Bobby5280 on February 18, 2024, 10:02:51 PM
Not only are changes in politics needed, but the regulatory process needs to be greatly streamlined. Most of all, America needs to do something about its legal industry. We might not actually have 70% of the world's attorneys, but we do have over 1.3 million of those legal mouths to feed. Any highway infrastructure project represents a huge business opportunity for law firms.

It costs a ridiculous amount of money to build tunnels anywhere in the world. But the United States routinely makes those costs just go over the f***king rainbow. So we just don't bother doing it. We run into the same problems building major bridges, attempts at high speed rail lines or any other "big" construction projects. Lawyers wanna get paid. And we have a government of the lawyers, for the lawyers and by the lawyers. The political party dog and pony show, culture wars and all that other crap is just a bunch of BS to keep everyone distracted. That way they don't have to work on getting anything real accomplished.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 10:24:25 PM
Yeah, this is especially true. We definitely need to find a way to reduce our infrastructure cost.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 18, 2024, 10:39:11 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 07:11:05 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2024, 07:53:55 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 12:25:03 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:53:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2024, 11:51:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:33:04 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 17, 2024, 01:09:18 PM
The tunnel is a fantastic option, but too costly to be considered. But ideally, all urban freeways would be emtunnelled so the city is unemfreewayed.
Extending tunnels when urban areas grow would be a tricky endeavor.
Tunnels in general, would be a tricky endeavor to build an urban areas. But we're not gonna get better at building them by not building any.
They're being built when they're considered the best alternative through the project development process dictated by FHWA.
Lol no they're not.
Seattle says hello.

Yes, they are.  As has been pointed out ad nauseam in this thread, there are a whole lot of considerations other than mere cost when it comes to deciding on a tunnel.

Let me know when you've read the alternative analysis for I-81, or any other project (see practically any bridge rehab or replacement project's design approval document).  Or, demonstrate you have even endeavored to understand the process.

Otherwise, you're just hollering out of ignorance.
Oh wow, you managed to come up with the predictable example, which is the anomaly to the rule. I would've never of guessed you would bring up the Alaskan Way tunnel. Next thing you know you'll be talking about the big dig. If six or so, miles of tunnel in the last several decades and no more tunnels planned in the future is your idea of them being built in this country, then have fun living in a fantasy land and perpetuating the status quo here. Otherwise you're just arguing over petty semantics.
Again, it comes down to the analysis of alternatives.  So, when a tunnel wins out, it is built.

And, because you haven't looked into how the Grid actually became the preferred alternative and how the tunnel was studied not once, but twice to great cost to the taxpayer, you're arguing out of your butt.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on February 19, 2024, 07:22:03 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 10:24:25 PM
Yeah, this is especially true. We definitely need to find a way to reduce our infrastructure cost.
A small thing you can do yourself:
whenever you buy anything electric, look for UL, ETL or similar testing symbol - and DO NOT BUY if it is "certified".  Common advice is "It's a must"  - totally opposite. It's not a legal requirement outside of the workspace. (It may still be required by electric code for permanently installed electric features though)
That is one of the strict and useless requirements to extract a few pennies out of most purchases you make and increase the entry threshold for competition. 
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: kalvado on February 19, 2024, 07:30:21 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2024, 10:39:11 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 07:11:05 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2024, 07:53:55 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 12:25:03 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:53:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2024, 11:51:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:33:04 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 17, 2024, 01:09:18 PM
The tunnel is a fantastic option, but too costly to be considered. But ideally, all urban freeways would be emtunnelled so the city is unemfreewayed.
Extending tunnels when urban areas grow would be a tricky endeavor.
Tunnels in general, would be a tricky endeavor to build an urban areas. But we're not gonna get better at building them by not building any.
They're being built when they're considered the best alternative through the project development process dictated by FHWA.
Lol no they're not.
Seattle says hello.

Yes, they are.  As has been pointed out ad nauseam in this thread, there are a whole lot of considerations other than mere cost when it comes to deciding on a tunnel.

Let me know when you've read the alternative analysis for I-81, or any other project (see practically any bridge rehab or replacement project's design approval document).  Or, demonstrate you have even endeavored to understand the process.

Otherwise, you're just hollering out of ignorance.
Oh wow, you managed to come up with the predictable example, which is the anomaly to the rule. I would've never of guessed you would bring up the Alaskan Way tunnel. Next thing you know you'll be talking about the big dig. If six or so, miles of tunnel in the last several decades and no more tunnels planned in the future is your idea of them being built in this country, then have fun living in a fantasy land and perpetuating the status quo here. Otherwise you're just arguing over petty semantics.
Again, it comes down to the analysis of alternatives.  So, when a tunnel wins out, it is built.

And, because you haven't looked into how the Grid actually became the preferred alternative and how the tunnel was studied not once, but twice to great cost to the taxpayer, you're arguing out of your butt.
And as a personal opinion - the grid wasn't chosen because it was the best, it was chosen because other alternatives were even worse. (not unlike many elections these days).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 19, 2024, 08:00:43 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 19, 2024, 07:30:21 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2024, 10:39:11 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 07:11:05 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2024, 07:53:55 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2024, 12:25:03 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:53:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 17, 2024, 11:51:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 17, 2024, 11:33:04 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 17, 2024, 01:09:18 PM
The tunnel is a fantastic option, but too costly to be considered. But ideally, all urban freeways would be emtunnelled so the city is unemfreewayed.
Extending tunnels when urban areas grow would be a tricky endeavor.
Tunnels in general, would be a tricky endeavor to build an urban areas. But we're not gonna get better at building them by not building any.
They're being built when they're considered the best alternative through the project development process dictated by FHWA.
Lol no they're not.
Seattle says hello.

Yes, they are.  As has been pointed out ad nauseam in this thread, there are a whole lot of considerations other than mere cost when it comes to deciding on a tunnel.

Let me know when you've read the alternative analysis for I-81, or any other project (see practically any bridge rehab or replacement project's design approval document).  Or, demonstrate you have even endeavored to understand the process.

Otherwise, you're just hollering out of ignorance.
Oh wow, you managed to come up with the predictable example, which is the anomaly to the rule. I would've never of guessed you would bring up the Alaskan Way tunnel. Next thing you know you'll be talking about the big dig. If six or so, miles of tunnel in the last several decades and no more tunnels planned in the future is your idea of them being built in this country, then have fun living in a fantasy land and perpetuating the status quo here. Otherwise you're just arguing over petty semantics.
Again, it comes down to the analysis of alternatives.  So, when a tunnel wins out, it is built.

And, because you haven't looked into how the Grid actually became the preferred alternative and how the tunnel was studied not once, but twice to great cost to the taxpayer, you're arguing out of your butt.
And as a personal opinion - the grid wasn't chosen because it was the best, it was chosen because other alternatives were even worse. (not unlike many elections these days).
That's a good way of putting it.  There was no 100% acceptable solution.  Tunnel = ridiculous.  Replacement = ROW nightmare.  That left the Grid.

I still think about the original I-81 Viaduct Project Director saying that the project should have been called the I-690 Reconstruction Project, because of the sheer size of the single Phase 2 contract itself (add in Crouse/Irving and it's half the cost of the entire project).
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: froggie on February 19, 2024, 08:57:27 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 18, 2024, 03:51:00 PM
The NY-695 and NY-5 freeway stubs on the West side of Syracuse are failed projects of what could have been longer freeways. I lived in that area during the early 1980's and those freeway stubs were there even back then. I don't know the history of I-481, but I suspect there was some plan for a SW quadrant that would have connected into where the NY-5 freeway stub ends at Genesee Street.

There is too much residential development between the I-81/I-481 interchange and that NY-695 freeway for any new freeway to connect the two. Any partial loop going West of I-81 to I-90 would have to start a few miles South of the existing I-81/I-481 interchange. The route would have to bow out past Camillus and connect with I-90 several miles West of the I-90/I-690 interchange. Is such a route even worthwhile to build?

This is from the region's early 1970s transportation plan (click on the map for my Flickr page and a larger image):

(https://live.staticflickr.com/1708/25872268142_99e28c4ff0_c.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ajfroggie/25872268142)

So even 50 years ago, considerations for a southwest loop were to NOT have it directly tie into 81/481.

As for the western end of the Camillus bypass, the same transportation plan gave considerations for extending that out towards Auburn, not looping back up to I-90.  NY 695 and I-690 take care of that.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on February 19, 2024, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: froggie on February 19, 2024, 08:57:27 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 18, 2024, 03:51:00 PM
The NY-695 and NY-5 freeway stubs on the West side of Syracuse are failed projects of what could have been longer freeways. I lived in that area during the early 1980's and those freeway stubs were there even back then. I don't know the history of I-481, but I suspect there was some plan for a SW quadrant that would have connected into where the NY-5 freeway stub ends at Genesee Street.

There is too much residential development between the I-81/I-481 interchange and that NY-695 freeway for any new freeway to connect the two. Any partial loop going West of I-81 to I-90 would have to start a few miles South of the existing I-81/I-481 interchange. The route would have to bow out past Camillus and connect with I-90 several miles West of the I-90/I-690 interchange. Is such a route even worthwhile to build?

This is from the region's early 1970s transportation plan (click on the map for my Flickr page and a larger image):

[img snipped]

So even 50 years ago, considerations for a southwest loop were to NOT have it directly tie into 81/481.

Is development since then entirely prohibitive? Setting aside the political/financial reasons this will never happen, from a pure geographical and ROW perspective I can see this approximate route still being viable, with a tie-in to I-81 between Nedrow and Exit 16.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 19, 2024, 11:11:26 AM
Quote from: webny99 on February 19, 2024, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: froggie on February 19, 2024, 08:57:27 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 18, 2024, 03:51:00 PM
The NY-695 and NY-5 freeway stubs on the West side of Syracuse are failed projects of what could have been longer freeways. I lived in that area during the early 1980's and those freeway stubs were there even back then. I don't know the history of I-481, but I suspect there was some plan for a SW quadrant that would have connected into where the NY-5 freeway stub ends at Genesee Street.

There is too much residential development between the I-81/I-481 interchange and that NY-695 freeway for any new freeway to connect the two. Any partial loop going West of I-81 to I-90 would have to start a few miles South of the existing I-81/I-481 interchange. The route would have to bow out past Camillus and connect with I-90 several miles West of the I-90/I-690 interchange. Is such a route even worthwhile to build?

This is from the region's early 1970s transportation plan (click on the map for my Flickr page and a larger image):

[img snipped]

So even 50 years ago, considerations for a southwest loop were to NOT have it directly tie into 81/481.

Is development since then entirely prohibitive? Setting aside the political/financial reasons this will never happen, from a pure geographical and ROW perspective I can see this approximate route still being viable, with a tie-in to I-81 between Nedrow and Exit 16.
Geographically viable?  Heck no.  Anyone who's been over the hills out of the Valley on NY 173 can see this first hand.

And demolishing Gannon's Isle Ice Cream in particular would cause riots.

Then, remember the Onondaga Nation's extreme opposition to I-81 when it was built originally, so routing anything futher south would also be not viable.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 19, 2024, 11:16:41 AM
Regarding the "stub" of the eastern end of the NY 5 bypass, I posted the map somewhere I have in my office which shows how it was proposed to turn east and tie into West St, even encroaching on the Zoo.

Here's a link.  For some reason, Flickr still refuses to provide a BBC code sharing shortcut and I'm too lazy to type it out on my phone...

https://flic.kr/p/2oRPjsg
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: webny99 on February 19, 2024, 11:37:34 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 19, 2024, 11:11:26 AM
Quote from: webny99 on February 19, 2024, 10:35:53 AM

Is development since then entirely prohibitive? Setting aside the political/financial reasons this will never happen, from a pure geographical and ROW perspective I can see this approximate route still being viable, with a tie-in to I-81 between Nedrow and Exit 16.
Geographically viable?  Heck no.  Anyone who's been over the hills out of the Valley on NY 173 can see this first hand.

And demolishing Gannon's Isle Ice Cream in particular would cause riots.

Then, remember the Onondaga Nation's extreme opposition to I-81 when it was built originally, so routing anything futher south would also be not viable.

What about the geography has changed since the '70's that would have made it viable then, but not now?

This particular routing would not impact Gannon's Isle or anything else in Valley - it crosses NY 173 west of OCC and drops quite a bit further south before turning east.

EDIT: I see that the southern routing would clip the northern edge of Onondaga Nation, but I would call that a political issue, not a geographical one.
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: Rothman on February 19, 2024, 11:52:40 AM


Quote from: webny99 on February 19, 2024, 11:37:34 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 19, 2024, 11:11:26 AM
Quote from: webny99 on February 19, 2024, 10:35:53 AM

Is development since then entirely prohibitive? Setting aside the political/financial reasons this will never happen, from a pure geographical and ROW perspective I can see this approximate route still being viable, with a tie-in to I-81 between Nedrow and Exit 16.
Geographically viable?  Heck no.  Anyone who's been over the hills out of the Valley on NY 173 can see this first hand.

And demolishing Gannon's Isle Ice Cream in particular would cause riots.

Then, remember the Onondaga Nation's extreme opposition to I-81 when it was built originally, so routing anything futher south would also be not viable.

What about the geography has changed since the '70's that would have made it viable then, but not now?

Nothing.  It would boil down to environmental concerns and costs for cuts or however else it would get through there under the wild and crazy old days.

Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: roadman65 on February 19, 2024, 10:42:40 PM
What about the traffic end of this. Perhaps the city also wants the traffic for once to bypass the city center? Having I-81 realigned will do just that. Is this a factor as well?
Title: Re: Interstate 81 in Syracuse
Post by: J N Winkler on February 20, 2024, 04:07:47 PM
Quote from: William ShakespeareDouble, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg and howlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.

Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Cool it with a baboon's blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.

That's tunnel construction for you.

Part of the reason tunnelling is cheaper in other jurisdictions is that the necessary plant (which includes really expensive items like tunnel boring machines) can be amortized over multiple contracts, while contractors as a whole have more experience with construction techniques such as slurry walls.  But a higher volume of tunnelling overall also translates into many more mishaps and failures, many of which have proven quite expensive.  It's not just a question of higher overall cost compared to options like viaducts and fill (retained or not):  the costs are also much more difficult to pin down.

In the past year I've seen the ANAS in Italy advertise at least three contracts that are designed to finish tunnels that the respective contractors abandoned midway through after encountering gnarly problems with water intrusion.  I also follow high-speed railway construction in Spain, and last year ADIF advertised a contract that will essentially build a pumping station to move trapped groundwater from one side of a slurry-wall tunnel to the other to keep it from flooding.  The problems the Spanish have had with the Pajares Tunnel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pajares_Base_Tunnel) are the stuff of legend.

Skeptical as I am of the Community Grid alternative in Syracuse--my own starting point would have been a complete rebuild of the I-81 viaduct to modern standards--I don't have a hard time seeing why a tunnel in the corridor would have been pretty much a non-starter.