Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[Rothman]

Nothing will change with Hochul.

People taking the grid will also need to think in 3D as the I-690 ramps will be on Crouse and Irving, offset from Almond, on the shoulder of University Hill.

I don't think anyone is going to be as bullish in the infrastructure field as Cuomo was, so why do you assert nothing will change?

Because for whatever reason he/she has made it clear they want the grid option and hope it becomes a reality. That's my guess.

Because the plan is set.  Hochul won't rock the boat.

It's a plan. Drawings on paper. The viaduct still stands and is used by thousands every day. Scrap the plan and come up with a new one because the current one sucks.

You are welcome to submit comments on the DEIS.

[vdeane]

Yeah, Hochul's not going to rock the boat on this.  This is a bit too far along, and it would provoke outrage among the people in Syracuse and activists in the Democratic base who are looking forward to the viaduct coming down.  Given that Hochul's record already makes her vulnerable to a primary challenge come next year, I doubt she'd do anything to scrap this unless the political winds change.

The Skyway removal is probably dead, though.  At this point, about the only person who actually supports that is Cuomo.  Even the congressman who was pushing it turned against the plan when Cuomo started supporting the "Cloudwalk" concept for re-using most of the structure (rather than actually removing it).  Plus the community would rather attention go towards the Kensington and the Scajaquada right now.

[Rothman]

I just think everyone is mad in Syracuse no matter what side they're on, so that would keep any unexpectedly incoming Governor to make sweeping changes to chosen directions.

[kalvado]

Yeah, Hochul's not going to rock the boat on this.  This is a bit too far along, and it would provoke outrage among the people in Syracuse and activists in the Democratic base who are looking forward to the viaduct coming down.  Given that Hochul's record already makes her vulnerable to a primary challenge come next year, I doubt she'd do anything to scrap this unless the political winds change.

The Skyway removal is probably dead, though.  At this point, about the only person who actually supports that is Cuomo.  Even the congressman who was pushing it turned against the plan when Cuomo started supporting the "Cloudwalk" concept for re-using most of the structure (rather than actually removing it).  Plus the community would rather attention go towards the Kensington and the Scajaquada right now.

One small factor maybe that Hochul got her bachelors from SU, and probably is very familiar with the highway.

[Rothman]

Yeah, Hochul's not going to rock the boat on this.  This is a bit too far along, and it would provoke outrage among the people in Syracuse and activists in the Democratic base who are looking forward to the viaduct coming down.  Given that Hochul's record already makes her vulnerable to a primary challenge come next year, I doubt she'd do anything to scrap this unless the political winds change.

The Skyway removal is probably dead, though.  At this point, about the only person who actually supports that is Cuomo.  Even the congressman who was pushing it turned against the plan when Cuomo started supporting the "Cloudwalk" concept for re-using most of the structure (rather than actually removing it).  Plus the community would rather attention go towards the Kensington and the Scajaquada right now.

One small factor maybe that Hochul got her bachelors from SU, and probably is very familiar with the highway.

The bigger factors, if she was in favor of replacement, would be the need to scrap the entire EIS process (when the major public hearing is next week), start all over again, wasting the millions spent already, ticking off the people that want the thing torn down, needing to find a few hundred million in additional funding (when phase 1 isn't even on the STIP yet) and delaying construction of phase 1 that is to begin next year.  She would be basically creating a huge headache that no semi-unelected new governor would want.

[kalvado]

Yeah, Hochul's not going to rock the boat on this.  This is a bit too far along, and it would provoke outrage among the people in Syracuse and activists in the Democratic base who are looking forward to the viaduct coming down.  Given that Hochul's record already makes her vulnerable to a primary challenge come next year, I doubt she'd do anything to scrap this unless the political winds change.

The Skyway removal is probably dead, though.  At this point, about the only person who actually supports that is Cuomo.  Even the congressman who was pushing it turned against the plan when Cuomo started supporting the "Cloudwalk" concept for re-using most of the structure (rather than actually removing it).  Plus the community would rather attention go towards the Kensington and the Scajaquada right now.

One small factor maybe that Hochul got her bachelors from SU, and probably is very familiar with the highway.

The bigger factors, if she was in favor of replacement, would be the need to scrap the entire EIS process (when the major public hearing is next week), start all over again, wasting the millions spent already, ticking off the people that want the thing torn down, needing to find a few hundred million in additional funding (when phase 1 isn't even on the STIP yet) and delaying construction of phase 1 that is to begin next year.  She would be basically creating a huge headache that no semi-unelected new governor would want.

Let me shorten it.
<business as usual in NY>
Am I missing something?

[Rothman]

Yeah, Hochul's not going to rock the boat on this.  This is a bit too far along, and it would provoke outrage among the people in Syracuse and activists in the Democratic base who are looking forward to the viaduct coming down.  Given that Hochul's record already makes her vulnerable to a primary challenge come next year, I doubt she'd do anything to scrap this unless the political winds change.

The Skyway removal is probably dead, though.  At this point, about the only person who actually supports that is Cuomo.  Even the congressman who was pushing it turned against the plan when Cuomo started supporting the "Cloudwalk" concept for re-using most of the structure (rather than actually removing it).  Plus the community would rather attention go towards the Kensington and the Scajaquada right now.

One small factor maybe that Hochul got her bachelors from SU, and probably is very familiar with the highway.

The bigger factors, if she was in favor of replacement, would be the need to scrap the entire EIS process (when the major public hearing is next week), start all over again, wasting the millions spent already, ticking off the people that want the thing torn down, needing to find a few hundred million in additional funding (when phase 1 isn't even on the STIP yet) and delaying construction of phase 1 that is to begin next year.  She would be basically creating a huge headache that no semi-unelected new governor would want.

Let me shorten it.
<business as usual in NY>
Am I missing something?

Yes:  An understanding of the federal project process and the consequences of changing direction too late in preliminary design on highly complex projects.

It's not just NY politics, but the federal framework pressuring politicians' decisionmaking.

[kalvado]

Yeah, Hochul's not going to rock the boat on this.  This is a bit too far along, and it would provoke outrage among the people in Syracuse and activists in the Democratic base who are looking forward to the viaduct coming down.  Given that Hochul's record already makes her vulnerable to a primary challenge come next year, I doubt she'd do anything to scrap this unless the political winds change.

The Skyway removal is probably dead, though.  At this point, about the only person who actually supports that is Cuomo.  Even the congressman who was pushing it turned against the plan when Cuomo started supporting the "Cloudwalk" concept for re-using most of the structure (rather than actually removing it).  Plus the community would rather attention go towards the Kensington and the Scajaquada right now.

One small factor maybe that Hochul got her bachelors from SU, and probably is very familiar with the highway.

The bigger factors, if she was in favor of replacement, would be the need to scrap the entire EIS process (when the major public hearing is next week), start all over again, wasting the millions spent already, ticking off the people that want the thing torn down, needing to find a few hundred million in additional funding (when phase 1 isn't even on the STIP yet) and delaying construction of phase 1 that is to begin next year.  She would be basically creating a huge headache that no semi-unelected new governor would want.

Let me shorten it.
<business as usual in NY>
Am I missing something?

Yes:  An understanding of the federal project process and the consequences of changing direction too late in preliminary design on highly complex projects.

It's not just NY politics, but the federal framework pressuring politicians' decisionmaking.

Well, then let's hope things work the way you expect and dirt starts moving before viaduct collapse!

[Flyer78]

Per the Syracuse Post Standard DOT released some more videos at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdauzvEu1kffaQEsW39AeIZTx961huno9

Also linked is the project website, https://webapps.dot.ny.gov/i-81-viaduct-project

[Rothman]

Per the Syracuse Post Standard DOT released some more videos at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdauzvEu1kffaQEsW39AeIZTx961huno9

Also linked is the project website, https://webapps.dot.ny.gov/i-81-viaduct-project

Yep.  Has the open house and local neighborhood meeting schedule on there, too.

[TheDon102]

Obviously the grid is gonna be chosen, but its not 100% a done deal. Especially if the community would prefer the elevated option.

Question, why not just make this a depressed freeway and cap it?

[kalvado]

Obviously the grid is gonna be chosen, but its not 100% a done deal. Especially if the community would prefer the elevated option.

Question, why not just make this a depressed freeway and cap it?

Community does prefer demolishing the elevated option.
And we discussed suppressed/tunnel options. Quick summary: Nope.

[TheDon102]

Obviously the grid is gonna be chosen, but its not 100% a done deal. Especially if the community would prefer the elevated option.

Question, why not just make this a depressed freeway and cap it?

Community does prefer demolishing the elevated option.
And we discussed suppressed/tunnel options. Quick summary: Nope.

I'm just making a guess here, but is it not possible due to connections to I-690?

[kalvado]

Obviously the grid is gonna be chosen, but its not 100% a done deal. Especially if the community would prefer the elevated option.

Question, why not just make this a depressed freeway and cap it?

Community does prefer demolishing the elevated option.
And we discussed suppressed/tunnel options. Quick summary: Nope.

I'm just making a guess here, but is it not possible due to connections to I-690?

Feel free to read this thread. It's not that long, just 1000 posts.

[seicer]

https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/04/why-the-i-81-tunnel-lost-out-and-the-grid-prevailed.html

"The option would mean the acquisition of 17 buildings -- 12 of them historical, the analysis says. A tunnel would mean severing many city streets instead of further linking downtown with the University Hill area. It would cost an extra $16.5 million a year to maintain."

"But it was the cost and construction time — an estimated $4.9 billion and 11 years — that prompted state officials to call the idea "unreasonable."

"But already, officials say they've looked at 20 different variations of a tunnel."

Also:

"State officials made another key decision when it comes to grid vs. anything else: they decided not to build a full interchange between that grid business loop and I-690.

It's a decision that means no new towering ramps near Franklin Square, one of the few criticisms from many here who supported the grid. It also means a savings of $90 million."

[Rothman]

Obviously the grid is gonna be chosen, but its not 100% a done deal. Especially if the community would prefer the elevated option.

Question, why not just make this a depressed freeway and cap it?

Community does prefer demolishing the elevated option.
And we discussed suppressed/tunnel options. Quick summary: Nope.

Meh.  Community's divided and mad.  We'll see what happens on Thursday.

[Roadgeekteen]

Yeah, I don't get this obsession with removing the part that remains a freeway from the interstate system.  I noticed this in the project goals:

Maintain or enhance vehicle access to the interstate highway network and key destinations (i.e., business districts, hospitals, and institutions) within neighborhoods within and near Downtown Syracuse.

Apparently everyone who uses I-81 between the I-481 interchanges but isn't going to/from downtown Syracuse is not important.  How about the interstate connectivity of everyone going from Rochester/Buffalo to the 1000 Islands, eastern Ontario, and Québec?  It sucks that the "only the individual corridor matters, not what it means for the connectivity and continuity of the rest of the system" attitude that I've complained at length about with respect to Canada has infected NY.  I'm starting to think that if the people who are in charge of DOTs today were around in the 1950s, we would never have gotten an interstate system - we would only have gotten relocated US routes, and the lower traffic corridors might not have gotten anything at all beyond perhaps bypasses for the towns.  The red, white, and blue shield we all know and love would never have existed.

And yeah, I agree about the downgrade in the alternatives.  I liked the original one better than what we have now.

(personal opinion)

OK, to make things clear: what portions of I-81 in Syracuse will be gone and which will stay. From what I am seeing, the only city pair that will be negatively affected is Rochester-NYC. Buffalo-NYC traffic doesn't even go through Syracuse.

[sprjus4]

^ Buffalo to NYC uses the exact same route as Rochester to NYC... It just joins the Thruway further west...

[roadman65]

https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/06/5-things-to-know-about-how-i-481-would-become-i-81-near-syracuse.html

[Roadgeekteen]

https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/06/5-things-to-know-about-how-i-481-would-become-i-81-near-syracuse.html

Looks like the part of I-81 north of the Thruway will still be a freeway just numbered differently.

^ Buffalo to NYC uses the exact same route as Rochester to NYC... It just joins the Thruway further west...

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Buffalo,+NY/New+York,+NY/@42.2964056,-76.3975838,8z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89d3126152dfe5a1:0x982304a5181f8171!2m2!1d-78.8783689!2d42.8864468!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c24fa5d33f083b:0xc80b8f06e177fe62!2m2!1d-74.0059728!2d40.7127753!3e0

The Thruway is not used, the fastest route is 20A-390-86.

[SkyPesos]

https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/06/5-things-to-know-about-how-i-481-would-become-i-81-near-syracuse.html

So they're calling the entire (soon to be former) I-81 between the two I-481 junctions as Business 81... I thought that at least the I-481 number would be reused on the I-690 to I-81/NY 481 section, a local street name on the section with the freeway removed, then a new x81 (thinking I-381) between the southern end of the removed freeway and I-81. Not sure on how others think, but I dislike business interstates being signed on long freeway stretches. Either give it a 3di or a state route number.

[Roadgeekteen]

https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/06/5-things-to-know-about-how-i-481-would-become-i-81-near-syracuse.html

So they're calling the entire (soon to be former) I-81 between the two I-481 junctions as Business 81... I thought that at least the I-481 number would be reused on the I-690 to I-81/NY 481 section, a local street name on the section with the freeway removed, then a new x81 (thinking I-381) between the southern end of the removed freeway and I-81. Not sure on how others think, but I dislike business interstates being signed on long freeway stretches. Either give it a 3di or a state route number.

Not a fan of it but I guess it makes it simpler.

[sprjus4]

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Buffalo,+NY/New+York,+NY/@42.2964056,-76.3975838,8z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89d3126152dfe5a1:0x982304a5181f8171!2m2!1d-78.8783689!2d42.8864468!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c24fa5d33f083b:0xc80b8f06e177fe62!2m2!1d-74.0059728!2d40.7127753!3e0

The Thruway is not used, the fastest route is 20A-390-86.

From Downtown, the route you mention is the exact same travel time as I-90 / I-81. It may be preferred over the long, two lane section of US-20A.

Additionally, anywhere in all the northern suburbs, it's faster to take I-90 / I-81.

So yes, the removal of I-81 in Syracuse will have an impact to Buffalo / NYC traffic.

[sprjus4]

https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/06/5-things-to-know-about-how-i-481-would-become-i-81-near-syracuse.html

Of course, the proper solution to improve I-481 to accommodate significantly increased traffic volumes along with future projections would be an expansion from 4 to 6 lanes throughout, plus the currently proposed auxiliary lanes where needed.

But that would cost too much money... say, maybe, the additional costs needed to reconstruct the I-81 viaduct?

It seems to me, without proper expansion of I-481, traffic will increase significantly on that route and with congestion becoming more commonplace due to lack of proper capacity.

[Rothman]

This thread has come full circle now.  People should just read the 1,000 posts.