Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[vdeane]

Yeah, it's going to need to be re-signed after the I-481 improvements anyways.  May as well do it once rather than twice.

Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

[cl94]

Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)

[Rothman]

Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)

The article is biased and presents mainly a slanted suburban perspective of a single commuter citizen.

I attended the hearing.  The majority of comments were pro-grid, especially from the elected officials and other community leaders.  Even those from the suburbs said "I am for the grid, but could you improve X in the plan" kinds of comments.

[kalvado]

Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)

The article is biased and presents mainly a slanted suburban perspective of a single commuter citizen.

I attended the hearing.  The majority of comments were pro-grid, especially from the elected officials and other community leaders.  Even those from the suburbs said "I am for the grid, but could you improve X in the plan" kinds of comments.

Stage V - acceptance.

[Rothman]

Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)

The article is biased and presents mainly a slanted suburban perspective of a single commuter citizen.

I attended the hearing.  The majority of comments were pro-grid, especially from the elected officials and other community leaders.  Even those from the suburbs said "I am for the grid, but could you improve X in the plan" kinds of comments.

Stage V - acceptance.

The real opposition seems to be playing out as the Destiny USA lawsuit...if that doesn't just fizzle out.  Not sure what changes that lawsuit would cause -- meaning, I doubt much, if any, given FHWA and NYSDOT's authority and the NEPA and SEQR requirements.

[kalvado]

Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)

The article is biased and presents mainly a slanted suburban perspective of a single commuter citizen.

I attended the hearing.  The majority of comments were pro-grid, especially from the elected officials and other community leaders.  Even those from the suburbs said "I am for the grid, but could you improve X in the plan" kinds of comments.

Stage V - acceptance.

The real opposition seems to be playing out as the Destiny USA lawsuit...if that doesn't just fizzle out.  Not sure what changes that lawsuit would cause -- meaning, I doubt much, if any, given FHWA and NYSDOT's authority and the NEPA and SEQR requirements.

I don't really understand what the real opposition is at this point.
Most locals who follow the issue probably accepted that grid is going to happen, and the best bet is for that to happen before viaduct collapses.  Denying that basically excludes them from discussion. So, given the grid - what are my best options?

[Plutonic Panda]

Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)

The article is biased and presents mainly a slanted suburban perspective of a single commuter citizen.

I attended the hearing.  The majority of comments were pro-grid, especially from the elected officials and other community leaders.  Even those from the suburbs said "I am for the grid, but could you improve X in the plan" kinds of comments.

Of course the most vocal crowd at town hall meetings regarding transportation infrastructure especially in a state that is majority Democrat will likely be anything that is anti freeway especially in this case. Most of the comments submitted were against the grid on the public comment period and in person at the town hall hearing they were for it. Then you have others trying to convince people by saying eventually they'll just have to accept it.

Hopefully a miracle comes through and the grid is option is done away in a favor if the more sensible alternative.

[Rothman]

Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)

The article is biased and presents mainly a slanted suburban perspective of a single commuter citizen.

I attended the hearing.  The majority of comments were pro-grid, especially from the elected officials and other community leaders.  Even those from the suburbs said "I am for the grid, but could you improve X in the plan" kinds of comments.

Of course the most vocal crowd at town hall meetings regarding transportation infrastructure especially in a state that is majority Democrat will likely be anything that is anti freeway especially in this case. Most of the comments submitted were against the grid on the public comment period and in person at the town hall hearing they were for it. Then you have others trying to convince people by saying eventually they'll just have to accept it.

Hopefully a miracle comes through and the grid is option is done away in a favor if the more sensible alternative.

Given the comments I heard, anti-freeway sentiment or hyperbolic New Urbanist mantras were minimal.  The first public comment at the hearing was from an older gentleman who went on a very short rant about the project being all about "social justice" and implied heavily that was a bad thing but didn't explain why (and therefore, his comment will be easily dismissed).  The rest were quite reasonable.

Also, the public comment period isn't even over yet, so I don't know where you're getting your information from...unless you're talking about outreach done a couple of years ago or more, which really no longer has a bearing.  What matters now are the comments received during this period and through the hearings and neighborhood meetings on the DEIS.

[Plutonic Panda]

Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)

The article is biased and presents mainly a slanted suburban perspective of a single commuter citizen.

I attended the hearing.  The majority of comments were pro-grid, especially from the elected officials and other community leaders.  Even those from the suburbs said "I am for the grid, but could you improve X in the plan" kinds of comments.

Of course the most vocal crowd at town hall meetings regarding transportation infrastructure especially in a state that is majority Democrat will likely be anything that is anti freeway especially in this case. Most of the comments submitted were against the grid on the public comment period and in person at the town hall hearing they were for it. Then you have others trying to convince people by saying eventually they'll just have to accept it.

Hopefully a miracle comes through and the grid is option is done away in a favor if the more sensible alternative.

Given the comments I heard, anti-freeway sentiment or hyperbolic New Urbanist mantras were minimal.  The first public comment at the hearing was from an older gentleman who went on a very short rant about the project being all about "social justice" and implied heavily that was a bad thing but didn't explain why (and therefore, his comment will be easily dismissed).  The rest were quite reasonable.

Also, the public comment period isn't even over yet, so I don't know where you're getting your information from...unless you're talking about outreach done a couple of years ago or more, which really no longer has a bearing.  What matters now are the comments received during this period and through the hearings and neighborhood meetings on the DEIS.

Not sure really what else to say. The social justice remediation aspect of this could be solved by a tunnel but then somehow we can't do what tons of other countries around the world can do because it is too expensive. So then according to city leaders the only option is to downgrade the corridor back to a street and shove the current traffic on additional facilities. I disagree and still have yet to submit a comment but I will draft one today now that I'm thinking about it.

[Rothman]

Meanwhile, the public comments seem to be against the grid and frustrated that DOT seems to be only listening to the city:
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/news/2021/08/19/voicing-concerns-over-the-future-of-i-81-

Oh, this has been known for a while. Most of the surrounding areas hate it, only Syracuse and a few state-level politicians want it.

(Personal opinion emphasized)

The article is biased and presents mainly a slanted suburban perspective of a single commuter citizen.

I attended the hearing.  The majority of comments were pro-grid, especially from the elected officials and other community leaders.  Even those from the suburbs said "I am for the grid, but could you improve X in the plan" kinds of comments.

Of course the most vocal crowd at town hall meetings regarding transportation infrastructure especially in a state that is majority Democrat will likely be anything that is anti freeway especially in this case. Most of the comments submitted were against the grid on the public comment period and in person at the town hall hearing they were for it. Then you have others trying to convince people by saying eventually they'll just have to accept it.

Hopefully a miracle comes through and the grid is option is done away in a favor if the more sensible alternative.

Given the comments I heard, anti-freeway sentiment or hyperbolic New Urbanist mantras were minimal.  The first public comment at the hearing was from an older gentleman who went on a very short rant about the project being all about "social justice" and implied heavily that was a bad thing but didn't explain why (and therefore, his comment will be easily dismissed).  The rest were quite reasonable.

Also, the public comment period isn't even over yet, so I don't know where you're getting your information from...unless you're talking about outreach done a couple of years ago or more, which really no longer has a bearing.  What matters now are the comments received during this period and through the hearings and neighborhood meetings on the DEIS.

Not sure really what else to say. The social justice remediation aspect of this could be solved by a tunnel but then somehow we can't do what tons of other countries around the world can do because it is too expensive. So then according to city leaders the only option is to downgrade the corridor back to a street and shove the current traffic on additional facilities. I disagree and still have yet to submit a comment but I will draft one today now that I'm thinking about it.

Sure.  A decent number of comments were about the configuration of Almond Avenue, desiring a narrower boulevard -- one downtown development association outright said they wanted Almond to be narrower so there was more surplus land to develop.

I am really not hopeful that any resurrection of the old residential neighborhood will be possible given existing buildings and establishments in the area.  But, people are suggesting ways of making the grid work for them, I suppose.

[webny99]

I would think the in-person comments would skew heavily in favor of the grid, while comments submitted online would skew heavily in favor of rebuilding the viaduct. Most of the people giving that care about the regional impact don't live in Syracuse, after all.

[Rothman]

I would think the in-person comments would skew heavily in favor of the grid, while comments submitted online would skew heavily in favor of rebuilding the viaduct. Most of the people giving that care about the regional impact don't live in Syracuse, after all.

We shall see.

[Roadgeekteen]

I would think the in-person comments would skew heavily in favor of the grid, while comments submitted online would skew heavily in favor of rebuilding the viaduct. Most of the people giving that care about the regional impact don't live in Syracuse, after all.

This might be unpopular but I would value the opinion of Syracuse residents more than others as the highway does go through their city.

[kalvado]

I would think the in-person comments would skew heavily in favor of the grid, while comments submitted online would skew heavily in favor of rebuilding the viaduct. Most of the people giving that care about the regional impact don't live in Syracuse, after all.

This might be unpopular but I would value the opinion of Syracuse residents more than others as the highway does go through their city.

Supporting NIMBY? That is popular opinion over here! And a very divisive one. Just for lulz:
If it is their city, why cannot they fund their city budget? 58% of combined city+city school district budget was state aid  before covid - over $3k per resident. Signed: NYS taxpayer

In a grand scheme of things, there is one thing Syracuse needs more than a highway (or removal of a highwayI. Like many other rust belt cities, Syracuse needs economic future. And i am surprised that is not discussed in I-81 context.

[Plutonic Panda]

I would think the in-person comments would skew heavily in favor of the grid, while comments submitted online would skew heavily in favor of rebuilding the viaduct. Most of the people giving that care about the regional impact don't live in Syracuse, after all.

This might be unpopular but I would value the opinion of Syracuse residents more than others as the highway does go through their city.

Right so with that logic let's have a nationwide referendum so each city can decide it if it wants to keep their freeway or remove it and see how that works out.

[cl94]

In a grand scheme of things, there is one thing Syracuse needs more than a highway (or removal of a highwayI. Like many other rust belt cities, Syracuse needs economic future. And i am surprised that is not discussed in I-81 context.

Well, the entire point of removal is to drive up land values in an attempt to spur gentrification. That's...part of it, but without employers, it will just result in concentration of wealth while the rest of the region declines (like we have seen elsewhere in Upstate NY). Need to be careful what I say here, but it is a topic I know a decent amount about.

(Personal opinion emphasized)

[Roadgeekteen]

I would think the in-person comments would skew heavily in favor of the grid, while comments submitted online would skew heavily in favor of rebuilding the viaduct. Most of the people giving that care about the regional impact don't live in Syracuse, after all.

This might be unpopular but I would value the opinion of Syracuse residents more than others as the highway does go through their city.

Right so with that logic let's have a nationwide referendum so each city can decide it if it wants to keep their freeway or remove it and see how that works out.

That's a bit silly, most of the freeways residents don't like are in downtowns. Also people in Syracuse probably wouldn't care if it takes someone from NYC an extra 7 minutes to get to Rochester.

[sprjus4]

I mean, if we're basing off that logic, let's demolish I-35 through Austin. Or I-345 in Dallas. Add I-30 and I-35E to that mix as well. I-10/35 through San Antonio? Demolish it. I-37? Demolish it. I-10, I-45, and I-69 through Houston? Demolish them.

Every urban highway, let's just demolish. If we're going to "value the opinion of residents"  who don't even use these highways are through routes let alone use the highway on a daily basis.

[Roadgeekteen]

I mean, if we're basing off that logic, let's demolish I-35 through Austin. Or I-345 in Dallas. Add I-30 and I-35E to that mix as well. I-10/35 through San Antonio? Demolish it. I-37? Demolish it. I-10, I-45, and I-69 through Houston? Demolish them.

Every urban highway, let's just demolish. If we're going to "value the opinion of residents"  who don't even use these highways are through routes let alone use the highway on a daily basis.

Well the point is I-81 is going to fall apart anyway so the real question is if we should rebuild it or not.

[webny99]

But when you think about it, it's pretty bizarre that there is even a question of whether to rebuild it.

In 49 other states, it wouldn't even be a question. It's a major cross-country interstate that's integral for truckers, locals, commuters, and long-distance traffic. There's no suitable alternate between south and west. I'm not saying the locals shouldn't have their say, but of course you should rebuild it!

Like I said, 49 other states would have identified that from the jump and saved the years and years of hand-wringing about something that should not even be up for debate.

[Roadgeekteen]

But when you think about it, it's pretty bizarre that there is even a question of whether to rebuild it.

In 49 other states, it wouldn't even be a question. It's a major cross-country interstate that's integral for truckers, locals, commuters, and long-distance traffic. There's no suitable alternate between south and west. I'm not saying the locals shouldn't have their say, but of course you should rebuild it!

Like I said, 49 other states would have identified that from the jump and saved the years and years of hand-wringing about something that should not even be up for debate.

How much would it cost to rebuild it? Also won't there still be a road in downtown Syracuse, just not an interstate? How much time would it add for any long-distance traffic?

[sprjus4]

Through traffic would have to add 7-10 minutes to follow I-481 and I-690, depending on traffic conditions.

The rebuild plan would only cost around $200 million more than the grid (which is expensive on its own), and given I-481 will inevitably have to be further widened in the future to 6 lanes throughout to make up for the added traffic, that cost will end up being spent anyways. Either that, or eventual construction of a western bypass.

Might as well do it right and rebuild / replace the viaduct. But I guess since some Syracuse residents will be happy, we'll waste it on a grid and even more expenditure later on I-481 widening and/or a western bypass.

[Roadgeekteen]

What about a tunnel through downtown Syracuse like the Big Dig? Also what benefits could the grid potentially have? And does 7-10 minutes really matter much in a 5 or 6-hour trip?


(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here)

[Plutonic Panda]

I mean, if we're basing off that logic, let's demolish I-35 through Austin. Or I-345 in Dallas. Add I-30 and I-35E to that mix as well. I-10/35 through San Antonio? Demolish it. I-37? Demolish it. I-10, I-45, and I-69 through Houston? Demolish them.

Every urban highway, let's just demolish. If we're going to "value the opinion of residents"  who don't even use these highways are through routes let alone use the highway on a daily basis.

Remove all freeways around DTLA, I-235 through OKC, I-25 through Denver, I-5 through Seattle, I mean I can go on and on. Hell all we have to do reroute traffic on other roads no big deal. How many people use I-81 a day again and how many people are against it?

[Rothman]

Through traffic would have to add 7-10 minutes to follow I-481 and I-690, depending on traffic conditions.

The rebuild plan would only cost around $200 million more than the grid (which is expensive on its own), and given I-481 will inevitably have to be further widened in the future to 6 lanes throughout to make up for the added traffic, that cost will end up being spent anyways. Either that, or eventual construction of a western bypass.

Might as well do it right and rebuild / replace the viaduct. But I guess since some Syracuse residents will be happy, we'll waste it on a grid and even more expenditure later on I-481 widening and/or a western bypass.

"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.