Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[Rothman]

What about a tunnel through downtown Syracuse like the Big Dig? Also what benefits could the grid potentially have? And does 7-10 minutes really matter much in a 5 or 6-hour trip?


(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here)

What rock have you been living under?  Tunnel was considered and thrown out long ago.

[Plutonic Panda]

But when you think about it, it's pretty bizarre that there is even a question of whether to rebuild it.

In 49 other states, it wouldn't even be a question.

Like I said, 49 other states would have identified that from the jump and saved the years and years of hand-wringing about something that should not even be up for debate.

Not that I disagree with your point because I don't but I wonder in regards to rebuilding urban interstates how many freeways in California would be rebuilt if the big one hit. There would no doubt be a massive campaign to not rebuild certain freeways if they collapsed or needed major rebuilds. Hopefully they won't succeed but California will experience another major damaging earthquake one day.

[Plutonic Panda]

What about a tunnel through downtown Syracuse like the Big Dig? Also what benefits could the grid potentially have? And does 7-10 minutes really matter much in a 5 or 6-hour trip?


(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here)

What rock have you been living under?  Tunnel was considered and thrown out long ago.

Lol I believe I told someone that on this forum before and was scolded by either a mod or another poster I can't remember. That's funny.

[Rothman]

Neighborhood meeting:

https://youtu.be/V-OYKd8SVrI

[webny99]

What about a tunnel through downtown Syracuse like the Big Dig? Also what benefits could the grid potentially have? And does 7-10 minutes really matter much in a 5 or 6-hour trip?


(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here)

All of that has been addressed extensively in the ~40 pages of this thread.

The tunnel, in particular, is much too involved and expensive - not even in the same ballpark as the other two options.

7-10 minutes isn't the end of the world, but it's enough to make traffic consider taking the grid, which would make traffic downtown even worse, or take a two-lane alternate such as NY 41 to US 20, which the communities on those routes (Skaneateles in particular) are NOT happy about.

[sprjus4]

"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.

Unless NYSDOT does the bare minimum (which it appears is the case) and plan for no further improvements, there is going to be an eventual need to widen I-481 to 6 lanes + auxiliary lanes through, plus a reasonable case for constructing a western bypass to replace the movement that I-81 currently provides.

All of those improvements together will likely add up to those additional costs "saved"  in the long run, or near it.

There's a strong case for replacing the viaduct when looking at the system as a whole, or at the very least, constructing these other improvements to handle the diverted traffic.

[Rothman]

"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.

Unless NYSDOT does the bare minimum (which it appears is the case) and plan for no further improvements, there is going to be an eventual need to widen I-481 to 6 lanes + auxiliary lanes through, plus a reasonable case for constructing a western bypass to replace the movement that I-81 currently provides.

All of those improvements together will likely add up to those additional costs "saved"  in the long run, or near it.

There's a strong case for replacing the viaduct when looking at the system as a whole, or at the very least, constructing these other improvements to handle the diverted traffic.

*shrug*

Feel free to submit a comment.

I don't think I-481 will need to be expanded anytime soon with the community grid option given current socioeconomic trends.

The western bypass is a more intriguing notion, though, especially as Skaneateles recommends measures to prevent truck traffic through that southwest quadrant -- some of which, in my personal opinion, NYSDOT is already starting to implement.  Going to be much more interesting to watch what happens on NY 41 and 41A, the Seneca Turnpike and in Homer in future years (going to be a long, long while before we see impacts -- shoot, I may be retired by then).

[Alps]

What about a tunnel through downtown Syracuse like the Big Dig? Also what benefits could the grid potentially have? And does 7-10 minutes really matter much in a 5 or 6-hour trip?


(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here)

What rock have you been living under?  Tunnel was considered and thrown out long ago.

BE NICE.

[Roadgeekteen]

What about a tunnel through downtown Syracuse like the Big Dig? Also what benefits could the grid potentially have? And does 7-10 minutes really matter much in a 5 or 6-hour trip?


(I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here)

What rock have you been living under?  Tunnel was considered and thrown out long ago.

BE NICE.

Eh it's kinda my fault I read through all 40 pages quickly

[seicer]

"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.

Unless NYSDOT does the bare minimum (which it appears is the case) and plan for no further improvements, there is going to be an eventual need to widen I-481 to 6 lanes + auxiliary lanes through, plus a reasonable case for constructing a western bypass to replace the movement that I-81 currently provides.

All of those improvements together will likely add up to those additional costs "saved"  in the long run, or near it.

There's a strong case for replacing the viaduct when looking at the system as a whole, or at the very least, constructing these other improvements to handle the diverted traffic.

I think we are overestimating how little traffic I-81 actually carries. It's never carried high AADT counts north of Syracuse, through the city, or south towards Binghamton. I-481 is well under capacity with the exception of a few choke points by the Thruway. The area is simply not growing or has essentially flat-lined with population.

[Rothman]

"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.

Unless NYSDOT does the bare minimum (which it appears is the case) and plan for no further improvements, there is going to be an eventual need to widen I-481 to 6 lanes + auxiliary lanes through, plus a reasonable case for constructing a western bypass to replace the movement that I-81 currently provides.

All of those improvements together will likely add up to those additional costs "saved"  in the long run, or near it.

There's a strong case for replacing the viaduct when looking at the system as a whole, or at the very least, constructing these other improvements to handle the diverted traffic.

I think we are overestimating how little traffic I-81 actually carries. It's never carried high AADT counts north of Syracuse, through the city, or south towards Binghamton. I-481 is well under capacity with the exception of a few choke points by the Thruway. The area is simply not growing or has essentially flat-lined with population.

Those that have to take the ramps at Adams/Harrison during rush hour would disagree (both NB and SB).

[kalvado]

"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.

Unless NYSDOT does the bare minimum (which it appears is the case) and plan for no further improvements, there is going to be an eventual need to widen I-481 to 6 lanes + auxiliary lanes through, plus a reasonable case for constructing a western bypass to replace the movement that I-81 currently provides.

All of those improvements together will likely add up to those additional costs "saved"  in the long run, or near it.

There's a strong case for replacing the viaduct when looking at the system as a whole, or at the very least, constructing these other improvements to handle the diverted traffic.

I think we are overestimating how little traffic I-81 actually carries. It's never carried high AADT counts north of Syracuse, through the city, or south towards Binghamton. I-481 is well under capacity with the exception of a few choke points by the Thruway. The area is simply not growing or has essentially flat-lined with population.

Those that have to take the ramps at Adams/Harrison during rush hour would disagree (both NB and SB).

This is more about local traffic vs long haul, especially transit traffic.
Local traffic may be numerous, but will redistribute and adjust, depending on starting point and destination. Question is how much of that traffic would shift on the new alignment (potentially requiring widening),  and who would be just using new options.
Long haul traffic, as we discussed, is not that plentiful - although some directions are affected more than others.

[Rothman]

"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.

Unless NYSDOT does the bare minimum (which it appears is the case) and plan for no further improvements, there is going to be an eventual need to widen I-481 to 6 lanes + auxiliary lanes through, plus a reasonable case for constructing a western bypass to replace the movement that I-81 currently provides.

All of those improvements together will likely add up to those additional costs "saved"  in the long run, or near it.

There's a strong case for replacing the viaduct when looking at the system as a whole, or at the very least, constructing these other improvements to handle the diverted traffic.

I think we are overestimating how little traffic I-81 actually carries. It's never carried high AADT counts north of Syracuse, through the city, or south towards Binghamton. I-481 is well under capacity with the exception of a few choke points by the Thruway. The area is simply not growing or has essentially flat-lined with population.

Those that have to take the ramps at Adams/Harrison during rush hour would disagree (both NB and SB).

This is more about local traffic vs long haul, especially transit traffic.
Local traffic may be numerous, but will redistribute and adjust, depending on starting point and destination. Question is how much of that traffic would shift on the new alignment (potentially requiring widening),  and who would be just using new options.
Long haul traffic, as we discussed, is not that plentiful - although some directions are affected more than others.

The hope is that local traffic will use the new ramps to be built at Crouse and Irving if coming from I-690.

One concern I have is that the parking for Upstate and the like is positioned on Almond Ave and vicinity as is.  That will cause a lot of commuters to have to come down from I-690 and make a turn or two to get to the garages.  I know city street improvements are coming (including the obvious extension of Irving), but I do wonder how commuting traffic will be on the actual grid itself once things are all said and done.

[kalvado]

"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.

Unless NYSDOT does the bare minimum (which it appears is the case) and plan for no further improvements, there is going to be an eventual need to widen I-481 to 6 lanes + auxiliary lanes through, plus a reasonable case for constructing a western bypass to replace the movement that I-81 currently provides.

All of those improvements together will likely add up to those additional costs "saved"  in the long run, or near it.

There's a strong case for replacing the viaduct when looking at the system as a whole, or at the very least, constructing these other improvements to handle the diverted traffic.

I think we are overestimating how little traffic I-81 actually carries. It's never carried high AADT counts north of Syracuse, through the city, or south towards Binghamton. I-481 is well under capacity with the exception of a few choke points by the Thruway. The area is simply not growing or has essentially flat-lined with population.

Those that have to take the ramps at Adams/Harrison during rush hour would disagree (both NB and SB).

This is more about local traffic vs long haul, especially transit traffic.
Local traffic may be numerous, but will redistribute and adjust, depending on starting point and destination. Question is how much of that traffic would shift on the new alignment (potentially requiring widening),  and who would be just using new options.
Long haul traffic, as we discussed, is not that plentiful - although some directions are affected more than others.

The hope is that local traffic will use the new ramps to be built at Crouse and Irving if coming from I-690.

One concern I have is that the parking for Upstate and the like is positioned on Almond Ave and vicinity as is.  That will cause a lot of commuters to have to come down from I-690 and make a turn or two to get to the garages.  I know city street improvements are coming (including the obvious extension of Irving), but I do wonder how commuting traffic will be on the actual grid itself once things are all said and done.

Talking about that... I don't quite know Syracuse enough to understand local traffic. I just realized I am thinking about "local traffic" as "traffic coming from the south along I-81", probably because thats where I drove most. However, road was never busy, and there is a whole lot of nothing on the map.
Where are most populated suburbs located in Syracuse, is that along 690?

[Rothman]

"Only $200m more"?  Egads. 

For NYSDOT, $200m is a significant amount of money.

I also believe it is closer to $300m more.

Unless NYSDOT does the bare minimum (which it appears is the case) and plan for no further improvements, there is going to be an eventual need to widen I-481 to 6 lanes + auxiliary lanes through, plus a reasonable case for constructing a western bypass to replace the movement that I-81 currently provides.

All of those improvements together will likely add up to those additional costs "saved"  in the long run, or near it.

There's a strong case for replacing the viaduct when looking at the system as a whole, or at the very least, constructing these other improvements to handle the diverted traffic.

I think we are overestimating how little traffic I-81 actually carries. It's never carried high AADT counts north of Syracuse, through the city, or south towards Binghamton. I-481 is well under capacity with the exception of a few choke points by the Thruway. The area is simply not growing or has essentially flat-lined with population.

Those that have to take the ramps at Adams/Harrison during rush hour would disagree (both NB and SB).

This is more about local traffic vs long haul, especially transit traffic.
Local traffic may be numerous, but will redistribute and adjust, depending on starting point and destination. Question is how much of that traffic would shift on the new alignment (potentially requiring widening),  and who would be just using new options.
Long haul traffic, as we discussed, is not that plentiful - although some directions are affected more than others.

The hope is that local traffic will use the new ramps to be built at Crouse and Irving if coming from I-690.

One concern I have is that the parking for Upstate and the like is positioned on Almond Ave and vicinity as is.  That will cause a lot of commuters to have to come down from I-690 and make a turn or two to get to the garages.  I know city street improvements are coming (including the obvious extension of Irving), but I do wonder how commuting traffic will be on the actual grid itself once things are all said and done.

Talking about that... I don't quite know Syracuse enough to understand local traffic. I just realized I am thinking about "local traffic" as "traffic coming from the south along I-81", probably because thats where I drove most. However, road was never busy, and there is a whole lot of nothing on the map.
Where are most populated suburbs located in Syracuse, is that along 690?

I'd say Fayetteville, Cicero/Clay, Salina/Camillus/Fairmount...there's not much to the south in terms of suburbs separate from the City, but the southern end of Syracuse (the Valley and points south) functions a sort of suburb of its own. 

I am uncertain how many people come in from the likes of Baldwinsville or Fulton, although I know one person from each that does.

[Henry]

If Syracuse has been on the decline for years, the reroute should be done with little to no problem (especially when the traffic counts on I-81 were never high to begin with). The community grid will be another thing, but if done right, it will be a great benefit to the city as a whole.

[sprjus4]

I-481 carries between 30,000 - 50,000 AADT.

I-81 carries around 70,000 AADT near Downtown.

There's going to be an impact traffic wise, regardless. And it's not "all local"  traffic. There's movements to/from I-690/90 West, and also I-81 North. I'd argue the biggest loss would be to/from the west, more than anything. The re-routed movement quite literally takes you due east, then back west again, like a U. Perhaps if a western bypass existed, it wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem.

The problem with this project is failure to consider regional impacts. And then there's suburb commuters that would also be affected, if not going to Downtown directly.

[seicer]

Syracuse is oriented more east-west for suburban growth. There isn't much development to the south because of the topography and reservation.

Also not sure where you are getting your numbers.

I-81 south of Syracuse: 36420, rising to 40100 north of I-481 and 35794 near downtown
I-81 north of Syracuse, which generally isn't changing: 41770, declining to 37873 near the Thruway and rising to 41765 north of I-481
I-481 south of Syracuse: 29203; north of Syracuse: 32532; east of Syracuse: 46351

I can't find anything from NYSDOT that pings I-81 at 70,000 AADT or I-481 at 50,000 AADT.

[webny99]

I think we are overestimating how little traffic I-81 actually carries. It's never carried high AADT counts north of Syracuse, through the city, or south towards Binghamton. I-481 is well under capacity with the exception of a few choke points by the Thruway. The area is simply not growing or has essentially flat-lined with population.

I think you mean overestimating how much traffic?

In any case, while the region is far from booming, Syracuse's population increased at the 2020 census for the first time in 70 years. The suburbs are also growing, albeit slowly. Onondaga County as a whole grew by 2%.

I-81 carries plenty of traffic north of the city. It's 6 lanes from downtown Syracuse up to NY 49 at Central Square, which is actually one of the longest six lane sections in all of upstate.

The reason traffic seems light south of downtown is because there's not much in the way of suburbs. Once you get south of I-481, it's basically all long-distance traffic, coming to/from Cortland, Binghamton, or further.

[webny99]

This is more about local traffic vs long haul, especially transit traffic.
...
Long haul traffic, as we discussed, is not that plentiful - although some directions are affected more than others.

Not to go down this road again, but I find this narrative about long-haul traffic to be baffling, bordering on incomprehensible. It's a misunderstanding/misrepresentation of the entire interstate system to suggest that a 2di at a major crossroads isn't significant for long haul traffic. What road is important for long-distance traffic if not a major cross-country 2di at a major regional crossroads?

I don't quite know Syracuse enough to understand local traffic. I just realized I am thinking about "local traffic" as "traffic coming from the south along I-81", probably because thats where I drove most. However, road was never busy, and there is a whole lot of nothing on the map.
Where are most populated suburbs located in Syracuse, is that along 690?

Yes, mostly north (along I-81) and west (along I-690). You've also got DeWitt/Fayetteville on the east side, but those areas already take I-481 to points north and south and I-690 to access downtown, so they won't be affected except by the increased traffic on I-481.

The western suburbs, though, are another story. It shouldn't be understated how much they will lose out in terms of connectivity to points south. It's unreasonable to expect traffic from the suburbs to go all the way to I-481 and loop back around to get to Cortland/Binghamton - they are going to end up either taking the grid or finding another local alternate, which is going to create major issues without a proper western bypass. And that's not even factoring in the long distance traffic coming into Syracuse on I-90 and heading south.

[sprjus4]

Also not sure where you are getting your numbers.

I can't find anything from NYSDOT that pings I-81 at 70,000 AADT or I-481 at 50,000 AADT.

I-81 near Downtown (the part being demolished for a wasteful grid) is 68,999 AADT, I-481 is 46,351 AADT, roughly around the figures I mentioned.

[Rothman]

This is more about local traffic vs long haul, especially transit traffic.
...
Long haul traffic, as we discussed, is not that plentiful - although some directions are affected more than others.

Not to go down this road again, but I find this narrative about long-haul traffic to be baffling, bordering on incomprehensible. It's a misunderstanding/misrepresentation of the entire interstate system to suggest that a 2di at a major crossroads isn't significant for long haul traffic. What road is important for long-distance traffic if not a major cross-country 2di at a major regional crossroads?

You have to look at the system as a whole.  That reveals why I-81 at I-90 is not as significant as you'd think.  You have I-390, I-86/NY 17, I-88, I-690 and I-481 all detracting from its significance.

[Rothman]

Just a reminder as to where the project stands:  There are two remaining viable alternatives, the grid and replacing the viaduct, with NYSDOT choosing the grid as its preferred alternative.  The Draft Environmental Impact Statement has been released and comments are due by September 14th.  The public hearing was held last week and neighborhood meetings will be held around Syracuse over the next couple of weeks.

Construction is tentatively set to start in April 2022 (perhaps somewhat quixotically).

So, any desires and wishes outside of these parameters are actually moot at this point.

[kalvado]

This is more about local traffic vs long haul, especially transit traffic.
...
Long haul traffic, as we discussed, is not that plentiful - although some directions are affected more than others.

Not to go down this road again, but I find this narrative about long-haul traffic to be baffling, bordering on incomprehensible. It's a misunderstanding/misrepresentation of the entire interstate system to suggest that a 2di at a major crossroads isn't significant for long haul traffic. What road is important for long-distance traffic if not a major cross-country 2di at a major regional crossroads?

You have to look at the system as a whole.  That reveals why I-81 at I-90 is not as significant as you'd think.  You have I-390, I-86/NY 17, I-88, I-690 and I-481 all detracting from its significance.

I thought we agreed that Rochester < - >southbound is THE affected long haul flow. And whatever the future for that flow is, it is not a 6-lane freeway as total long haul volume on I-81 doesn't warrant that. Any widening to 6 lanes in Syracuse would be for local traffic only (until Thruway decides... but that is again a different story) 

[Rothman]

This is more about local traffic vs long haul, especially transit traffic.
...
Long haul traffic, as we discussed, is not that plentiful - although some directions are affected more than others.

Not to go down this road again, but I find this narrative about long-haul traffic to be baffling, bordering on incomprehensible. It's a misunderstanding/misrepresentation of the entire interstate system to suggest that a 2di at a major crossroads isn't significant for long haul traffic. What road is important for long-distance traffic if not a major cross-country 2di at a major regional crossroads?

You have to look at the system as a whole.  That reveals why I-81 at I-90 is not as significant as you'd think.  You have I-390, I-86/NY 17, I-88, I-690 and I-481 all detracting from its significance.

I thought we agreed that Rochester < - >southbound is THE affected long haul flow. And whatever the future for that flow is, it is not a 6-lane freeway as total long haul volume on I-81 doesn't warrant that. Any widening to 6 lanes in Syracuse would be for local traffic only (until Thruway decides... but that is again a different story)

Sure, but that traffic isn't going to all go to I-81 and turn South.  They'll likely take I-690 or the other routes I mentioned.

It's also not totally Rochester.  There are truck generators in Seneca and Cayuga Counties which are also causing concerns.