Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[Plutonic Panda]

Got invited to and attended the I-81 Viaduct Project groundbreaking today.  Gov. Hochul, Sens. Schumer and Gillibrand, Lanessa Owens-Chaplin of NY Civil Liberties Union and Former Mayor of New Orleans Mitch Landrieu, White House Coordinator of the IIJA all spoke.  Pretty standard stuff on reconnecting the community, fighting racism, and creating local, unionized jobs.

Sorry you had to sit through that.

Why?

IMO it'd be because this project is fucking stupid.

I'm still shaking my head at or mildly amused by roadgeeks that repeat criticisms that blatantly don't take all the characteristics of the project into account, which means they can be ignored.

I'm also amused by the fact that there have been so few roadgeeks that have actually looked into the details of the project and noted the actual remaining more troublesome aspects of it.

And again, I'm still amazed that Alabama can build such a much more massive road elevated through their downtown and one of their biggest cities yet New York can't even build an at grade Boulevard replacing the freeway for less. So if we're already spending this amount of money, we might as well go big, or go home, and either rebuild a thing as it is, or at least build it to where the portals can be constructed in the future, when, and if Syracuse ever starts becoming a bigger city.

[Rothman]

Got invited to and attended the I-81 Viaduct Project groundbreaking today.  Gov. Hochul, Sens. Schumer and Gillibrand, Lanessa Owens-Chaplin of NY Civil Liberties Union and Former Mayor of New Orleans Mitch Landrieu, White House Coordinator of the IIJA all spoke.  Pretty standard stuff on reconnecting the community, fighting racism, and creating local, unionized jobs.

Sorry you had to sit through that.

Why?

IMO it'd be because this project is fucking stupid.

I'm still shaking my head at or mildly amused by roadgeeks that repeat criticisms that blatantly don't take all the characteristics of the project into account, which means they can be ignored.

I'm also amused by the fact that there have been so few roadgeeks that have actually looked into the details of the project and noted the actual remaining more troublesome aspects of it.

And again, I'm still amazed that Alabama can build such a much more massive road elevated through their downtown and one of their biggest cities yet New York can't even build an at grade Boulevard replacing the freeway for less. So if we're already spending this amount of money, we might as well go big, or go home, and either rebuild a thing as it is, or at least build it to where the portals can be constructed in the future, when, and if Syracuse ever starts becoming a bigger city.

And, to that, I only have to refer you to the post you quoted therein.  If you can't see the difference between the two projects, you haven't educated yourself properly, especially at this point, where the reasons behind why the replacement was so expensive has been explained by NYSDOT and on this forum ad nauseam.

[silverback1065]

it is extremely unlikely that syracuse will get any bigger. and having 81 go through downtown was dubious even when they proposed it originally. the people who think routing 81 around the city will make traffic terrible are crazy, when this project is completed you'll likely see no traffic issues at all in the area. not all downtown freeways needed/need to exist.

[roadman65]

I have no problem with the elimination considering it's part of another must do project. If, let's say, they eliminated the viaduct for the sake of eliminating the viaduct, I would say it's unworthy of a move.


Plus the freeway revolt is getting overrated anyhow.

[Plutonic Panda]

Got invited to and attended the I-81 Viaduct Project groundbreaking today.  Gov. Hochul, Sens. Schumer and Gillibrand, Lanessa Owens-Chaplin of NY Civil Liberties Union and Former Mayor of New Orleans Mitch Landrieu, White House Coordinator of the IIJA all spoke.  Pretty standard stuff on reconnecting the community, fighting racism, and creating local, unionized jobs.

Sorry you had to sit through that.

Why?

IMO it'd be because this project is fucking stupid.

I'm still shaking my head at or mildly amused by roadgeeks that repeat criticisms that blatantly don't take all the characteristics of the project into account, which means they can be ignored.

I'm also amused by the fact that there have been so few roadgeeks that have actually looked into the details of the project and noted the actual remaining more troublesome aspects of it.

And again, I'm still amazed that Alabama can build such a much more massive road elevated through their downtown and one of their biggest cities yet New York can't even build an at grade Boulevard replacing the freeway for less. So if we're already spending this amount of money, we might as well go big, or go home, and either rebuild a thing as it is, or at least build it to where the portals can be constructed in the future, when, and if Syracuse ever starts becoming a bigger city.

And, to that, I only have to refer you to the post you quoted therein.  If you can't see the difference between the two projects, you haven't educated yourself properly, especially at this point, where the reasons behind why the replacement was so expensive has been explained by NYSDOT and on this forum ad nauseam.

I get it you're just obsessed with this project and responding to any and everyone telling them why they're wrong when they criticize it. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.

[kalvado]

I get it you're just obsessed with this project and responding to any and everyone telling them why they're wrong when they criticize it. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.

Not to defend Rothman (not that he needs that anyway) - but you may have noticed that the local gang who knows the area came to some sort of agreement. It's a small portion of traffic which would really suffer; and I-81 reroute is the least of all evils given the overall situation. It wouldn't help depressed area, but I don't see anything that really would.
People living in a very different environment far away from project area are certainly allowed to have their own perspective - but looks like some are missing on the realities in the project  and area specifics.   

[machias]

The only thing I find concerning about this project is the decision to go with BL 81 instead of a couple of 3-digit interstate numbers (one each into downtown from the current 481 interchanges).  Both interchanges will have "Route 81" intersecting with "Route 81" which motorists may find confusing. That area of New York State tends to call everything "Route".

There's also a bunch of poor sign designs on the plans I've seen but I'm really hopeful I didn't see the version of the plans that are actually going to be used to fabricate the signs.  (One example, a post interchange sign with I-90/Thruway the destination and a mileage of "5.5")

[machias]

It'd also be nice to see the freeway from current I-81 Exit 16A northwest to the NY 5 freeway stub at Genesee Street on future plans somewhere, but we all know that's never going to happen. (I clearly remember discussions about that in the 80s). That would definitely help with traffic concerns for traffic on that side of the city.

[Rothman]

The only thing I find concerning about this project is the decision to go with BL 81 instead of a couple of 3-digit interstate numbers (one each into downtown from the current 481 interchanges).  Both interchanges will have "Route 81" intersecting with "Route 81" which motorists may find confusing. That area of New York State tends to call everything "Route".

There's also a bunch of poor sign designs on the plans I've seen but I'm really hopeful I didn't see the version of the plans that are actually going to be used to fabricate the signs.  (One example, a post interchange sign with I-90/Thruway the destination and a mileage of "5.5")

That's more like it.

[Plutonic Panda]

I get it you're just obsessed with this project and responding to any and everyone telling them why they're wrong when they criticize it. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.

Not to defend Rothman (not that he needs that anyway) - but you may have noticed that the local gang who knows the area came to some sort of agreement. It's a small portion of traffic which would really suffer; and I-81 reroute is the least of all evils given the overall situation. It wouldn't help depressed area, but I don't see anything that really would.
People living in a very different environment far away from project area are certainly allowed to have their own perspective - but looks like some are missing on the realities in the project  and area specifics.

I try to tend and think long term. But nowadays you got people who are certain Syracuse won't ever grow or that it's a waste of land space preserving ROW for future infrastructure needed for tunnels even though that space can temporarily be activated in other areas until the time calls.

There's also something to be said that we can't learn lessons from Alabama and just have to completely alienate them as there is no way New York could ever find a way to reduce infrastructure costs and I must be claiming that they could do it here for the same cost as down south just because I mentioned them as a case study. It's a my way or the highway type shit. Rothman is just completely obsessed with responding to EVERY damned comment that mentions this project in a way he doesn't like as if he has personal investment in it himself.

It's kinda funny but annoying at the same time. That isn't a rational person when it comes to this particular subject.

[Rothman]

It'd also be nice to see the freeway from current I-81 Exit 16A northwest to the NY 5 freeway stub at Genesee Street on future plans somewhere, but we all know that's never going to happen. (I clearly remember discussions about that in the 80s). That would definitely help with traffic concerns for traffic on that side of the city.

The traffic movement from the south to the west and vice versa is definitely still a concern.  So far, the official response is, "Going around will take just a few more minutes, especially when I-690 is brought up to standard as part of this project."  Not the greatest consolation, but the pro of reconnecting the Hill with Downtown is supposed to outweigh the con.

That said, any proposal for I-481 to become like SLC's I-215 is a nonstarter due to the terrain, development and entrenched NIMBYs that like the suburban/rural feel of the area. I have an old map in my office that shows that even in the ancient times of just plowing highways through anywhere, the NY 5 freeway was proposed to end at the Zoo.

Sharing photos is such a pain on here, but I'll see if I can upload one of the map.

[kalvado]

I get it you're just obsessed with this project and responding to any and everyone telling them why they're wrong when they criticize it. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.

Not to defend Rothman (not that he needs that anyway) - but you may have noticed that the local gang who knows the area came to some sort of agreement. It's a small portion of traffic which would really suffer; and I-81 reroute is the least of all evils given the overall situation. It wouldn't help depressed area, but I don't see anything that really would.
People living in a very different environment far away from project area are certainly allowed to have their own perspective - but looks like some are missing on the realities in the project  and area specifics.

I try to tend and think long term. But nowadays you got people who are certain Syracuse won't ever grow or that it's a waste of land space preserving ROW for future infrastructure needed for tunnels even though that space can temporarily be activated in other areas until the time calls.

There's also something to be said that we can't learn lessons from Alabama and just have to completely alienate them as there is no way New York could ever find a way to reduce infrastructure costs and I must be claiming that they could do it here for the same cost as down south just because I mentioned them as a case study. It's a my way or the highway type shit. Rothman is just completely obsessed with responding to EVERY damned comment that mentions this project in a way he doesn't like as if he has personal investment in it himself.

It's kinda funny but annoying at the same time. That isn't a rational person when it comes to this particular subject.

I assume once you say "tunnel", you may safely remove your name from the list of rational people anyway.
Costs are indeed high in NY. I don't see how things can be changed without another civil war or two, though.

[Rothman]

I get it you're just obsessed with this project and responding to any and everyone telling them why they're wrong when they criticize it. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.

Not to defend Rothman (not that he needs that anyway) - but you may have noticed that the local gang who knows the area came to some sort of agreement. It's a small portion of traffic which would really suffer; and I-81 reroute is the least of all evils given the overall situation. It wouldn't help depressed area, but I don't see anything that really would.
People living in a very different environment far away from project area are certainly allowed to have their own perspective - but looks like some are missing on the realities in the project  and area specifics.

I try to tend and think long term. But nowadays you got people who are certain Syracuse won't ever grow or that it's a waste of land space preserving ROW for future infrastructure needed for tunnels even though that space can temporarily be activated in other areas until the time calls.

There's also something to be said that we can't learn lessons from Alabama and just have to completely alienate them as there is no way New York could ever find a way to reduce infrastructure costs and I must be claiming that they could do it here for the same cost as down south just because I mentioned them as a case study. It's a my way or the highway type shit. Rothman is just completely obsessed with responding to EVERY damned comment that mentions this project in a way he doesn't like as if he has personal investment in it himself.

It's kinda funny but annoying at the same time. That isn't a rational person when it comes to this particular subject.

My comments and rebuttals to your assertions have been based upon the details of the project, the associated traffic analyses that have been done and knowledge of the area (i.e., why preserving area in downtown Syracuse for tunnel portals is, well, just absurd).

Lack of reason is indicated by lack of attention to actual detail.

[Plutonic Panda]

Long-term planning is not absurd.

[kalvado]

Long-term planning is not absurd.

Poiponen13 approves this message.

[vdeane]

The only thing I find concerning about this project is the decision to go with BL 81 instead of a couple of 3-digit interstate numbers (one each into downtown from the current 481 interchanges).  Both interchanges will have "Route 81" intersecting with "Route 81" which motorists may find confusing. That area of New York State tends to call everything "Route".

There's also a bunch of poor sign designs on the plans I've seen but I'm really hopeful I didn't see the version of the plans that are actually going to be used to fabricate the signs.  (One example, a post interchange sign with I-90/Thruway the destination and a mileage of "5.5")

That's my issue as well.  I don't think the southern freeway needs an interstate number, but it would have been nice to have the northern freeway an interstate with the rest a state route, in typical NY fashion.  However, I understand that doing so would have cost more (likely because of the I-690 interchange; FHWA frowns on incomplete interstate/interstate junctions these days) per the FEIS.  That said, there's still no reason it couldn't all be "NYS Route 681" or something.

(personal opinion)

[The Ghostbuster]

I know that when Interstate 81 is rerouted onto Interstate 481's corridor, both Interstate 81's and Interstate (and hopefully NY) 690's exit will be renumbered to mileage-based. I have not heard what will become of future Business 81's and NY 481's exit numbers. I would imagine they also be renumbered to mileage-based, since I don't think either Business 81's or NY 481's exit numbers should either be de-numbered or left with their existing numbers.

[cockroachking]

I know that when Interstate 81 is rerouted onto Interstate 481's corridor, both Interstate 81's and Interstate (and hopefully NY) 690's exit will be renumbered to mileage-based. I have not heard what will become of future Business 81's and NY 481's exit numbers. I would imagine they also be renumbered to mileage-based, since I don't think either Business 81's or NY 481's exit numbers should either be de-numbered or left with their existing numbers.

Everything within project limits is going mile-based according to the RFP plans for Contracts 1 and 2. Of course, these signing plans are littered with mistakes, so who knows what will actually happen.

[silverback1065]

throw US 11 onto the stubs. problem solved.

[machias]

throw US 11 onto the stubs. problem solved.

I think it was originally US 11 so that'd be fun.

[machias]

I know that when Interstate 81 is rerouted onto Interstate 481's corridor, both Interstate 81's and Interstate (and hopefully NY) 690's exit will be renumbered to mileage-based. I have not heard what will become of future Business 81's and NY 481's exit numbers. I would imagine they also be renumbered to mileage-based, since I don't think either Business 81's or NY 481's exit numbers should either be de-numbered or left with their existing numbers.

It's my understanding that all Interstate routes in NYSDOT Region 3 will have mileage based interchange numbers when this project is complete, and that NY Route 481 and 690 will have mileage based numbers as well.  While they're at it I'd love to see mileage based numbers on the NY Route 5 freeway (but not based on the current mileposts which are wrong because they're based on the wrong western terminus), but that probably won't happen.

[machias]

The only thing I find concerning about this project is the decision to go with BL 81 instead of a couple of 3-digit interstate numbers (one each into downtown from the current 481 interchanges).  Both interchanges will have "Route 81" intersecting with "Route 81" which motorists may find confusing. That area of New York State tends to call everything "Route".

There's also a bunch of poor sign designs on the plans I've seen but I'm really hopeful I didn't see the version of the plans that are actually going to be used to fabricate the signs.  (One example, a post interchange sign with I-90/Thruway the destination and a mileage of "5.5")

That's my issue as well.  I don't think the southern freeway needs an interstate number, but it would have been nice to have the northern freeway an interstate with the rest a state route, in typical NY fashion.  However, I understand that doing so would have cost more (likely because of the I-690 interchange; FHWA frowns on incomplete interstate/interstate junctions these days) per the FEIS.  That said, there's still no reason it couldn't all be "NYS Route 681" or something.

(personal opinion)

I kind of wonder why they didn't do a swap and route NY 481 down the northern end of BL 81.  I-81 and NY 481 could bump each other at current Exit 29.

[vdeane]

Incidentally I took another look at the signage for contracts 1 and 2 and found a few interesting anomalies.  SB "former exit 16A" should be "former exit 1".  SB "87 A-B" should just be 87, since the ramp won't split.  There's also a BL 81 mile 90 marker included for some reason...

I see it keeps Thruway exit 36 as Watertown/Binghamton, but it also notes "existing panel to remain".  Perhaps temporary until the Thruway can do a proper replacement?  Interestingly, nothing appears for 34A at all.

[Rothman]

It'd also be nice to see the freeway from current I-81 Exit 16A northwest to the NY 5 freeway stub at Genesee Street on future plans somewhere, but we all know that's never going to happen. (I clearly remember discussions about that in the 80s). That would definitely help with traffic concerns for traffic on that side of the city.

The traffic movement from the south to the west and vice versa is definitely still a concern.  So far, the official response is, "Going around will take just a few more minutes, especially when I-690 is brought up to standard as part of this project."  Not the greatest consolation, but the pro of reconnecting the Hill with Downtown is supposed to outweigh the con.

That said, any proposal for I-481 to become like SLC's I-215 is a nonstarter due to the terrain, development and entrenched NIMBYs that like the suburban/rural feel of the area. I have an old map in my office that shows that even in the ancient times of just plowing highways through anywhere, the NY 5 freeway was proposed to end at the Zoo.

Sharing photos is such a pain on here, but I'll see if I can upload one of the map.

Here we go.  Look closely for the thin, dashed black line.  It actually goes all the way to West Street.

[machias]

Incidentally I took another look at the signage for contracts 1 and 2 and found a few interesting anomalies.  SB "former exit 16A" should be "former exit 1".  SB "87 A-B" should just be 87, since the ramp won't split.  There's also a BL 81 mile 90 marker included for some reason...

I see it keeps Thruway exit 36 as Watertown/Binghamton, but it also notes "existing panel to remain".  Perhaps temporary until the Thruway can do a proper replacement?  Interestingly, nothing appears for 34A at all.

I'm really hoping these plans are not the final plans because there's a lot of mistakes in there, including some panels with some bad layouts. I can't imagine these are the plans the contractors are working off of.