Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[seicer]

Well, for the tunnel alternative, that would require demolishing a large swath of land through the heart of Syracuse and then just letting it sit idle indefinitely for a tunnel that will never be built.

[Rothman]

Well, for the tunnel alternative, that would require demolishing a large swath of land through the heart of Syracuse and then just letting it sit idle indefinitely for a tunnel that will never be built.

^So much this, which I think I pointed out earlier in this thread (or should have).

Given the development that has occurred right around the viaduct already, let alone all over Syracuse in recent years, the idea of purchasing ROW of massive tracts in downtown Syracuse for the tunnel portals when funding will never be found at this point is the definition of governmental waste.

So, I, for one, do not understand certain individuals that continue to tilt at this windmill.

[sprjus4]

The DOT dismissed the tunnel alternative as being far too expensive to construct (especially considering the alternatives), and an independent study conducted at the request of Cuomo came to the same conclusion. Does the state need to go into deep debt to build a $3 billion to $4 billion tunnel for low AADT? On top of the permanent closure of many city streets (which was agreed from the beginning was not going to be acceptable), excessive traffic congestion during construction, and technical challenges that would surely drive up project costs.

I'm not saying I support a tunnel alternative now or in the future, but I do think it's important to note he said preserve right of way for a future tunnel - not one today.

[sprjus4]

Given the development that has occurred right around the viaduct already, let alone all over Syracuse in recent years, the idea of purchasing ROW of massive tracts in downtown Syracuse for the tunnel portals when funding will never be found at this point is the definition of governmental waste.

Spending $2.25 billion on a community grid is the definition of governmental waste.

[Rothman]

Given the development that has occurred right around the viaduct already, let alone all over Syracuse in recent years, the idea of purchasing ROW of massive tracts in downtown Syracuse for the tunnel portals when funding will never be found at this point is the definition of governmental waste.

Spending $2.25 billion on a community grid is the definition of governmental waste.

You're mischaracterizing the scope of the project, so this is nothing but a strawman and polemic argument that is moot.

As I've said before in here, I'm all for discussing the project, warts and all, if people's stances are based upon the actual characteristics of the project. 

It's rather disappointing that on this forum dedicated to all things roadgeekery that there are those that insist on seeing the project as they want to, rather than what it is.

[The Ghostbuster]

As much as I would have preferred that NYDOT had chosen to retain the viaduct (and construct the new viaduct to modern design standards), we have to face the reality that the project will go through as planned. Also, in a city like Syracuse, building a tunnel was never going to be practical. Still, I think $2.25 billion is a hefty price tag for a project like this.

[vdeane]

Keep in mind that $2.25 billion isn't just for tearing down the I-81 viaduct and doing work on the streets below it.  The I-690 viaduct is being replaced.  The two interchanges with I-481 are being redone.  I-481 is being widened in spots, including both directions on some rather long bridges.  The part that's remaining a freeway is getting a fair amount of work.  This isn't just a viaduct tear-down - it's basically a revitalization of Syracuse's entire transportation system.

[kalvado]

Keep in mind that $2.25 billion isn't just for tearing down the I-81 viaduct and doing work on the streets below it.  The I-690 viaduct is being replaced.  The two interchanges with I-481 are being redone.  I-481 is being widened in spots, including both directions on some rather long bridges.  The part that's remaining a freeway is getting a fair amount of work.  This isn't just a viaduct tear-down - it's basically a revitalization of Syracuse's entire transportation system.

... because just tearing down viaduct would indeed be catastrophic. Some don't like a new road system planned for Syracuse- but there are few things everyone would love (except, maybe, money and beer)

[machias]

As a roadgeek native of the area, I have always been fascinated by the viaduct and I always found it very exciting to drive or ride on it, or under it on Almond Street.  I'm sad to see it go and I wish there were alternatives that maintained I-81 through downtown.

That being said, I can't help but think of the "viaduct" built along NY 17 in Horseheads. It was built as a solid structure and essentially creates a brick wall through that area of town. There's no way a modern viaduct, which would have undoubtedly been built to similar standards, would hold up with that sort of appearance through the middle of downtown Syracuse. Yes, there would have been more underpasses and yes, concessions on the design would have been made, but there most certainly would have been discussions around sound walls and other mitigation factors that would never have been considered in the 1950s and 1960s.

With the conversion to the community grid, I feel like the bridge carrying I-81 over Park Street near Destiny USA that was built in the early 1980s will now be way over-engineered for the traffic the BL81 freeway will be carrying. When it's time for that to be replaced I wonder if they're going to consider something else there as well.

[Duke87]

Well, for the tunnel alternative, that would require demolishing a large swath of land through the heart of Syracuse and then just letting it sit idle indefinitely for a tunnel that will never be built.

^So much this, which I think I pointed out earlier in this thread (or should have).

Given the development that has occurred right around the viaduct already, let alone all over Syracuse in recent years, the idea of purchasing ROW of massive tracts in downtown Syracuse for the tunnel portals when funding will never be found at this point is the definition of governmental waste.

So, I, for one, do not understand certain individuals that continue to tilt at this windmill.

I mean...
1) some are of the opinion that a freeway through downtown must be retained at any cost, and any option that involves not having one should never have been considered
2) a tunnel would be the only feasible way of retaining a thru freeway without slaughtering any sacred cows

Combine 1 and 2 and you get harping about tunnels.


The problem, of course, is that this logic is at odds with the reality that this is New York we're talking about. Another state might actually be able to come up with the money for a tunnel (boondoggly as it may be). Another state might also not be shackled by sacred cow problems and would be capable of building a new viaduct up to modern standards at reasonable cost, even though use of eminent domain would be required. But New York is a failed state that is simultaneously broke and institutionally incapable of building anything if someone might have a fingernail broken in the process due to past trauma over planning malpractice (thanks Robert Moses).

They wrap the project up in dressing about "reconnecting communities" and other feelgood bullshit that it won't actually accomplish in the way they're acting like it will, but the reality is the state is capitulating to their own impotence and they refuse to admit it.

I'd respect this whole project a lot more if New York were honest and said "look, we're incapable of keeping I-81 through downtown, sorry, but hey at least some developers will profit from its removal". Because ultimately given all the constraints in play the option being pursued is the best and most realistic one... but the state is not explaining their motives in good faith and that, frankly, bothers me more than anything else about it.

[Rothman]

Well, for the tunnel alternative, that would require demolishing a large swath of land through the heart of Syracuse and then just letting it sit idle indefinitely for a tunnel that will never be built.

^So much this, which I think I pointed out earlier in this thread (or should have).

Given the development that has occurred right around the viaduct already, let alone all over Syracuse in recent years, the idea of purchasing ROW of massive tracts in downtown Syracuse for the tunnel portals when funding will never be found at this point is the definition of governmental waste.

So, I, for one, do not understand certain individuals that continue to tilt at this windmill.

I mean...
1) some are of the opinion that a freeway through downtown must be retained at any cost, and any option that involves not having one should never have been considered
2) a tunnel would be the only feasible way of retaining a thru freeway without slaughtering any sacred cows

Combine 1 and 2 and you get harping about tunnels.


The problem, of course, is that this logic is at odds with the reality that this is New York we're talking about. Another state might actually be able to come up with the money for a tunnel (boondoggly as it may be). Another state might also not be shackled by sacred cow problems and would be capable of building a new viaduct up to modern standards at reasonable cost, even though use of eminent domain would be required. But New York is a failed state that is simultaneously broke and institutionally incapable of building anything if someone might have a fingernail broken in the process due to past trauma over planning malpractice (thanks Robert Moses).

They wrap the project up in dressing about "reconnecting communities" and other feelgood bullshit that it won't actually accomplish in the way they're acting like it will, but the reality is the state is capitulating to their own impotence and they refuse to admit it.

I'd respect this whole project a lot more if New York were honest and said "look, we're incapable of keeping I-81 through downtown, sorry, but hey at least some developers will profit from its removal". Because ultimately given all the constraints in play the option being pursued is the best and most realistic one... but the state is not explaining their motives in good faith and that, frankly, bothers me more than anything else about it.

Oh, I'm the first to admit that the main thrust of the demolition of the viaduct and rest of the project was fiscal -- it was literally the cheapest option.  However, this option would not have been chosen if traffic simulations showed it to be infeasible.  There's very good reason why I-690 is being reconstructed and the northern and southern interchanges.

If money is to be made by developers, then that would mean some sort of community is being built.  As I've said before, the old ward was totally obliterated by the viaduct back in the 1960s and will not be coming back or "reconnected" as Schumer's puzzle pieces implied at the groundbreaking.  The old community just isn't there.

But, as I've pointed out, downtown revitalization is happening here and there in Syracuse already, thankfully including the massive renovation of the hideous "City Center" building.  A lot of residential units are being built/refurbished.

I'm still not seeing much new space for other development, though, so whatever money developers will make in that regard will be minimal.

But, if there's one thing downtown is missing, it's something like a supermarket.  I'd hate for Tops to find room to come in (they're horrible price-wise), but outside of a few small boutique kinds of places, it is a real food desert.  Man, something like Boston's Star Market would be perfect...especially if they delivered...

[roadman65]

Usually developments are part of a city wide vitilalization project and from I witnessed here, it don't seem part of it. It just a conversion from freeway to arterial to remove a barrier, which is proven to be elevated or suppressed freeways in the modern world..

A major vitalization project is that like of Newport in Jersey City, NJ and there aren't such projects around I-81 that seems close to it. Newport was just the conversion of old railroads and warehouses to a modern office, retail, and residential facilities along a prime waterfront. In Syracuse it looks like they're strengthening a fallen community by bringing back whole neighborhoods.

[Rothman]

Usually developments are part of a city wide vitilalization project and from I witnessed here, it don't seem part of it. It just a conversion from freeway to arterial to remove a barrier, which is proven to be elevated or suppressed freeways in the modern world..

A major vitalization project is that like of Newport in Jersey City, NJ and there aren't such projects around I-81 that seems close to it. Newport was just the conversion of old railroads and warehouses to a modern office, retail, and residential facilities along a prime waterfront. In Syracuse it looks like they're strengthening a fallen community by bringing back whole neighborhoods.

I don't see revitalization in Syracuse happening on that kind of scale, though.  I see a major building here and there being upgraded, but definitely not entire neighborhoods.

[kalvado]

Usually developments are part of a city wide vitilalization project and from I witnessed here, it don't seem part of it. It just a conversion from freeway to arterial to remove a barrier, which is proven to be elevated or suppressed freeways in the modern world..

A major vitalization project is that like of Newport in Jersey City, NJ and there aren't such projects around I-81 that seems close to it. Newport was just the conversion of old railroads and warehouses to a modern office, retail, and residential facilities along a prime waterfront. In Syracuse it looks like they're strengthening a fallen community by bringing back whole neighborhoods.

I don't see revitalization in Syracuse happening on that kind of scale, though.  I see a major building here and there being upgraded, but definitely not entire neighborhoods.

Small scale development in Austin - we may get only 10000 jobs out of that. Small development in China - a smallish town of 1000000 people. Large development in Upstate - we may get Wegmans!!!11

[Duke87]

I'm still not seeing much new space for other development, though, so whatever money developers will make in that regard will be minimal.

Even if there isn't new space, the presence of an elevated freeway depresses the land value of adjacent parcels because living or working right next to such a thing is deemed undesireable by the majority of people. Removing it still helps developers since they'll be able to charge higher rents for spaces adjacent to a "community grid". This is not minimal.

[Rothman]

I'm still not seeing much new space for other development, though, so whatever money developers will make in that regard will be minimal.

Even if there isn't new space, the presence of an elevated freeway depresses the land value of adjacent parcels because living or working right next to such a thing is deemed undesireable by the majority of people. Removing it still helps developers since they'll be able to charge higher rents for spaces adjacent to a "community grid". This is not minimal.

Except, outside of Jefferson and Madison Towers, there aren't that many residential properties next to the viaduct.  Upstate and the Psychiatric Center take up the vast bulk of the adjacent property.  Pioneer Homes will remain public project housing as it has since 1941.

And, if Hamilton House is opened back up because of the grid, all the better...although I have no idea where the residents would park.  Thought it would be best for that skyscraper to be demolished, myself.

The rentals north of I-690 will still be behind that reconstructed elevated freeway.

[roadman65]

Does higher viaducts not having the dark tunnel effect beneath it, not separate neighborhoods?

The reason why I ask is in South Tampa, the Leroy Selmon Viaduct was built 30 feet above US 92 and to me I don't see it as barrier between both sides. Ditto for TX SH 146 in Seabrook, TX where the new freeway is over 50 feet above ground and to me I see the same as before it was built as the new freeway don't create a dark area in between the two sides of the highway as a lower underpass would.

In fact the darkness a viaduct creates is, IMO, what cause the mind to see a barrier. 

[Alps]

But let's keep delaying the inevitable, wasting more taxpayer dollars on frivolous lawsuits, and pitching more infeasible and too-expensive alternatives like a tunnel or a sky-high viaduct.

I'll take a regular in-kind viaduct for $500, Alex.
(million)

[kalvado]

Does higher viaducts not having the dark tunnel effect beneath it, not separate neighborhoods?

The reason why I ask is in South Tampa, the Leroy Selmon Viaduct was built 30 feet above US 92 and to me I don't see it as barrier between both sides. Ditto for TX SH 146 in Seabrook, TX where the new freeway is over 50 feet above ground and to me I see the same as before it was built as the new freeway don't create a dark area in between the two sides of the highway as a lower underpass would.

In fact the darkness a viaduct creates is, IMO, what cause the mind to see a barrier.

I really wonder how many people turned down jobs because commute to that job would involve passing under the highway ..

[froggie]

But let's keep delaying the inevitable, wasting more taxpayer dollars on frivolous lawsuits, and pitching more infeasible and too-expensive alternatives like a tunnel or a sky-high viaduct.

I'll take a regular in-kind viaduct for $500, Alex.
(million)

FHWA won't allow an "in-kind"...not on an Interstate.  But I suspect you knew that already...

[Roadgeek Adam]

With the tunnel question. What extra traffic in the next 25 years do you see? None of the Thruway 5 (Buffalo-Rochester-Syracuse-Utica-Albany) are exactly projecting to see a moving boom in the next 25 years. Why should we make room for a tunnel that will never be built for traffic expectations likely to never be realized? Why can't we just tear the viaduct, let the community change and move on? They'll improve the roads around the city and in for the traffic that does exist. I've never seen statistics that say any of the Thruway 5 cities are gonna experience growth.

[Alps]

But let's keep delaying the inevitable, wasting more taxpayer dollars on frivolous lawsuits, and pitching more infeasible and too-expensive alternatives like a tunnel or a sky-high viaduct.

I'll take a regular in-kind viaduct for $500, Alex.
(million)

FHWA won't allow an "in-kind"...not on an Interstate.  But I suspect you knew that already...

I suspect you don't realize that I meant "in-kind" as a viaduct of the same height, not the same cross section.

[The Ghostbuster]

It would have been foolish to reconstruct the viaduct in-kind, since it is a shoulder-less four lane roadway. If the viaduct had been maintained, they probably would have reconstructed it to modern design standards and adding emergency shoulders (if doing so didn't take up too much right-of-way).

[Rothman]

With the tunnel question. What extra traffic in the next 25 years do you see? None of the Thruway 5 (Buffalo-Rochester-Syracuse-Utica-Albany) are exactly projecting to see a moving boom in the next 25 years. Why should we make room for a tunnel that will never be built for traffic expectations likely to never be realized? Why can't we just tear the viaduct, let the community change and move on? They'll improve the roads around the city and in for the traffic that does exist. I've never seen statistics that say any of the Thruway 5 cities are gonna experience growth.

To be fair, Micron's a-coming.  That said, it's to the northwest of Syracuse, which means it could be an interesting case of people commuting from the city out to Cicero.

[seicer]

But let's keep delaying the inevitable, wasting more taxpayer dollars on frivolous lawsuits, and pitching more infeasible and too-expensive alternatives like a tunnel or a sky-high viaduct.

I'll take a regular in-kind viaduct for $500, Alex.
(million)

I'm not totally opposed to a rebuilt viaduct but it seems that the only options people are really pushing through is that sky-high viaduct and tunnel.