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Las Vegas HOV rules to change

Started by roadfro, April 13, 2019, 11:52:09 AM

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roadfro

We already knew Project Neon would spell the end of I-15's current express lanes between Silverado Ranch & Sahara–it is to be converted to HOV (in areas where there are two express lanes, the second express lane will become an additional general purpose lane).

With the new HOV connector between I-15 & US 95 at the Spaghetti Bowl being built as part of Project Neon, this will result in 22 miles of continuous HOV lane facilities from I-15 & Silverado Ranch to US 95 & Elkhorn Road (where an HOV-only exit is under construction as part of the US 95 Northwest project).

What I didn't know was that the HOV rules for the whole valley would be changing...

Rules for Las Vegas HOV lanes to change when Project Neon complete, Las Vegas Review-Journal, 4/12/19
Quote
Regulating HOV lanes will also change. Currently the HOV lanes are utilized as such only during high traffic times, from 6 a.m. until 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. until 7 p.m. Monday through Friday.

Once the new lanes go live in mid-May the HOV lanes will be enforced 24 hours a day, seven days per week, according to Dale Keller, NDOT assistant chief of project management, who presented the HOV plan Thursday to the Regional Transportation Commission of Southern Nevada board of commissioners.

Additionally, crossing the solid double white line of an HOV lane is also illegal; motorists are allowed to enter and exit the lane only where dotted lines are present.

Interestingly, the US 95 HOV lane was 24/7 when originally implemented, but after maybe a year was changed to the current peak-hour enforcement.

But it seems NDOT is taking a page from Caltrans' SoCal playbook in creating designated entry/exit points for HOV lanes with double solid lines. This is a departure from the current "you can cross the solid line at any time" style (which I never thought was a good practice–should've used broken lines).
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.


ClassicHasClass

Is there evidence that the HOV lanes are overused even outside of peak hours, though? My beef with Caltrans is that freeways that run relatively empty off peak really shouldn't have 24-hour HOV lanes, or otherwise you're taking away capacity that's just not being used at other times. I think the only justification for 24-hour lanes is when the HOV lanes don't achieve minimum speeds at any time.

Plutonic Panda

I think they need to take a look at how it goes and see if there is really such a demand for off peak usage. In cities like SF and LA I can understand 24 hour HOV lane enforcement, but Las Vegas doesn't seem like it should be enforced at night.

roadfro

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on April 13, 2019, 01:52:08 PM
Is there evidence that the HOV lanes are overused even outside of peak hours, though? My beef with Caltrans is that freeways that run relatively empty off peak really shouldn't have 24-hour HOV lanes, or otherwise you're taking away capacity that's just not being used at other times. I think the only justification for 24-hour lanes is when the HOV lanes don't achieve minimum speeds at any time.

I would say no. I can potentially see more demand for the HOV lanes on I-15 than those existing on US 95, but not to the point that 24/7 enforcement would make any appreciable impact outside of peak hours.

I'm guessing they're going to go with the most restrictive enforcement as the entire HOV network is unveiled (including Vegas' first HOV-only interchanges), and reevaluate after a year or so of use. This is basically what happened when NDOT introduced HOV lanes to US 95 several years ago–they loosened the 24/7 after about a year or so, in part because there was no demand for it outside of the am/pm peak hours.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

Junkie

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 13, 2019, 04:36:14 PM
I think they need to take a look at how it goes and see if there is really such a demand for off peak usage. In cities like SF and LA I can understand 24 hour HOV lane enforcement, but Las Vegas doesn't seem like it should be enforced at night.
SF doesn't have 24 hour HOV lanes.

The Bay Bridge has some Bus Only lanes that can be used by carpools during carpool hours, but carpool lanes on freeways (and I believe all other bridge toll plazas) are all peak only AFAIK.

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Junkie on April 16, 2019, 03:55:08 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 13, 2019, 04:36:14 PM
I think they need to take a look at how it goes and see if there is really such a demand for off peak usage. In cities like SF and LA I can understand 24 hour HOV lane enforcement, but Las Vegas doesn't seem like it should be enforced at night.
SF doesn't have 24 hour HOV lanes.

The Bay Bridge has some Bus Only lanes that can be used by carpools during carpool hours, but carpool lanes on freeways (and I believe all other bridge toll plazas) are all peak only AFAIK.
Thanks for the correction. I paused when I typed SF Bc I couldn't remember exactly what their rules were like.

US 89

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 13, 2019, 04:36:14 PM
I think they need to take a look at how it goes and see if there is really such a demand for off peak usage. In cities like SF and LA I can understand 24 hour HOV lane enforcement, but Las Vegas doesn’t seem like it should be enforced at night.

The Wasatch Front metropolitan area is fairly similar to Vegas in population, and the HOV (now HOT) lanes on I-15 there have been restricted 24 hours ever since their introduction in 2000/2001. Initially, you could get into them wherever you liked and they were marked with a single solid white line, but that was converted to a double solid line when they added the ability for single drivers to buy a sticker to drive in the lanes. (They later switched to a transponder system when congestion pricing was implemented.)

Techknow

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 16, 2019, 04:13:22 PM
Thanks for the correction. I paused when I typed SF Bc I couldn't remember exactly what their rules were like.
For the curious, SF itself has no HOV freeway lanes, I only recall a HOV entrance for Interstate 80 that is 3+ but only on rush hour (3PM to 7:30PM) on Bryant Street and 2nd.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7830424,-122.3937612,3a,51.2y,50.67h,94.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbhmQPFsMrHcbv5kaV1hRhw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Techknow on April 16, 2019, 07:23:12 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 16, 2019, 04:13:22 PM
Thanks for the correction. I paused when I typed SF Bc I couldn't remember exactly what their rules were like.
For the curious, SF itself has no HOV freeway lanes, I only recall a HOV entrance for Interstate 80 that is 3+ but only on rush hour (3PM to 7:30PM) on Bryant Street and 2nd.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7830424,-122.3937612,3a,51.2y,50.67h,94.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbhmQPFsMrHcbv5kaV1hRhw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Lack of clarification on my part. I was referring to the metro area. I'll often just say the parent city without mentioning I am referring to entire metro which sometimes confuses people.

TheStranger

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 16, 2019, 08:09:52 PM
Quote from: Techknow on April 16, 2019, 07:23:12 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 16, 2019, 04:13:22 PM
Thanks for the correction. I paused when I typed SF Bc I couldn't remember exactly what their rules were like.
For the curious, SF itself has no HOV freeway lanes, I only recall a HOV entrance for Interstate 80 that is 3+ but only on rush hour (3PM to 7:30PM) on Bryant Street and 2nd.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7830424,-122.3937612,3a,51.2y,50.67h,94.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbhmQPFsMrHcbv5kaV1hRhw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Lack of clarification on my part. I was referring to the metro area. I'll often just say the parent city without mentioning I am referring to entire metro which sometimes confuses people.

I think with the Bay Area the distinctions are a bit more subtle, as the three major urban cores (SF, Oakland, SJ) all are culturally separate and each have their own set of suburbs.

The two nearest HOV lanes to San Francisco are probably the US 101 carpool lane that starts in Redwood City I think it is...about 25 miles to the south, and the Eastshore Freeway/I-80 HOV lane that ends at the Bay Bridge toll plaza in West Oakland. 
Chris Sampang

roadfro

Some City of Las Vegas officials have concerns about the new HOV rules (and one just doesn't like HOV lanes at all):


Las Vegas officials concerned about HOV lane regulations, Las Vegas Review-Journal, 4/17/19
Quote
Las Vegas city officials want to put the brakes on portions of proposed changes in the rules governing high occupancy vehicle lanes that are slated to take effect when Project Neon is completed next month.
<...>
On Wednesday, Dale Keller, Nevada Department of Transportation's assistant chief of project management, gave the Las Vegas City Council an overview of the coming HOV lane changes. After the briefing, Councilman Stavros Anthony said if it were up to him there would be no carpool lanes.

"I want to drive in those lanes, too,"  Anthony said. "But I don't because I'm not going to violate the law."

Anthony said he regularly speaks with residents in his area of the northwest valley, where the current HOV lanes run, and they aren't happy about the existing HOV lanes, even with the current intermittent regulations.
<...>
Currently the HOV lanes are utilized as such only during high traffic times, from 6 to 10 a.m. and 2 to 7 p.m. Monday through Friday. Under the new rules, the HOV lanes will be enforced 24 hours per day, 7 days per week.

Additionally, crossing the solid double white line of an HOV lane is also illegal; motorists are allowed to enter and exit the lane only where dotted lines are present. There will be 14 enter/exit points across the 22 miles of HOV lanes where motorists can legally move in and out of the lanes.

Motorists will face a $250 fine for violating any of the prohibited actions in the carpool lanes.

The lack of current regulation on the existing HOV lanes worries Anthony, and said adding the 24-hour restriction will create even more issues.

Despite Anthony's concerns, Highway Patrol Trooper Lt. Chris Dreyer said the uniform rules will actually help the department enforce them, despite the increased hours.
<...>
Councilwoman Michele Fiore doubled-down on the 24-hour regulation concern.

"That's something that we really have to look at,"  Fiore said. "You're looking at taking the benefit of everyone else using the HOV lanes at certain hours and making it 24/7, and I am in 100 percent disagreement with that, at minimum."
<...>
Councilman Bob Coffin said he was in support of the HOV lanes, due to the perceived environmental effect the lanes could have on reducing emissions as residents carpool with each other.

He didn't understand why electric or hybrid vehicles wouldn't be allowed to travel in them even when those vehicles have one occupant, as is the case in California and other states.
<...>
Keller said NDOT will monitor the HOV lanes when they open and the department will make changes to any aspect it feels is needed. Keller also said there's federal funding tied in with the valley's freeway system, with HOV lanes being part of that.

Despite the funding tied to the HOV lanes, Anthony requested the HOV changes be discussed again at the May 15 City Council meeting, with a public comment period open between now and the meeting.

Not sure that the city council has any jurisdiction to affect the HOV lanes on a state facility... But I agree with Councilwoman Fiore about the 24/7 restriction.

The last article detailed that the HOV lanes would now have entry/exit points. New in this article is the accompanying graphic showing the specific entry/exit points. The count of 14 points counts approximate locations (whether there is access in one direction or both) and appears to include future HOV interchanges as two of the 14.


My hope is that NDOT includes some signage that indicates when to leave the HOV lane to get to certain exits, a la I-5 in SoCal.

And also that they use actual double solid lines to mark the HOV lanes. They called the lines separating I-15's express lanes "double solid", but these are actually two single solid lines spaced about four feet apart.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

US 89

Quote from: roadfro on April 20, 2019, 11:14:04 AM
And also that they use actual double solid lines to mark the HOV lanes. They called the lines separating I-15's express lanes "double solid", but these are actually two single solid lines spaced about four feet apart.

In my experience, the extra-wide double solid lines are better than standard-width double solid lines at deterring traffic from crossing them, because they create a wider gap between the express and general lanes.  Compare the normal width to the extra-wide version - although it didn't seem to stop that one car from crossing!

roadfro

Quote from: US 89 on April 20, 2019, 11:26:50 AM
Quote from: roadfro on April 20, 2019, 11:14:04 AM
And also that they use actual double solid lines to mark the HOV lanes. They called the lines separating I-15's express lanes "double solid", but these are actually two single solid lines spaced about four feet apart.

In my experience, the extra-wide double solid lines are better than standard-width double solid lines at deterring traffic from crossing them, because they create a wider gap between the express and general lanes.  Compare the normal width to the extra-wide version - although it didn't seem to stop that one car from crossing!

NDOT's I-15 Express Lanes are set up like your second example, generally with a 4-ish foot buffer. People cross them all the time.

The buffer could have been made with double white lines on each side, similar to the SoCal HOV lane buffers (second example linked in my previous post). Closely spaced double solid lines whether white or yellow indicate "do not cross", whereas a two single solid lines with space between does not indicate the same restriction.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

djsekani

Quote from: roadfro on April 13, 2019, 11:52:09 AM

But it seems NDOT is taking a page from Caltrans' SoCal playbook in creating designated entry/exit points for HOV lanes with double solid lines. This is a departure from the current "you can cross the solid line at any time" style (which I never thought was a good practice–should've used broken lines).

SoCal is actually moving away from this practice; most new HOV lanes are separated with broken lines, and some older ones are being restriped with broken lines.

roadfro

Restriping of I-15's express lanes to HOV lanes began Wednesday night, but the entire HOV system won't be ready till later this month.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/traffic/i-15-hov-lane-restriping-to-begin-wednesday-night-in-las-vegas-1653943/
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

roadfro

Local news interview this morning with an NDOT spokesperson & an NHP trooper talking about the HOV lanes.
https://www.lasvegasnow.com/news/local-news/interview-hov-lanes-coming-soon-to-i-15/1986030681

The go-live date for I-15's HOV conversion and the area's 24/7 HOV restriction is May 20th.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

roadfro

Las Vegas City Councilman Stavros Anthony is still fired up about the HOV lanes, and now the city is looking to reduce HOV tickets to lesser fines.

Las Vegas officials vow to reduce HOV fines in their jurisdiction, Las Vegas Review-Journal, 5/16/2019
Quote
At the request of Las Vegas City Councilman Stavros Anthony, high-occupancy vehicle lanes were discussed at Wednesday's council meeting, as he wanted to see what legal avenues the city had to try to stop the lanes from being instituted in their jurisdiction.

The city's legal team revealed there wasn't much it could do to stop the lanes, aside from passing a measure calling for the state transportation board to reconsider the HOV lanes in their jurisdiction.
<...>
Anthony had the city's legal team look at whether the city could change any HOV violation ticket received in its jurisdiction to a reduced infraction.

"Why can't you drop these down to a parking ticket and make it a $10 fine?"  Anthony questioned.

City Attorney Brad Jerbic said HOV tickets will be reduced to parking tickets with the $250 fine being significantly reduced as well.
<...>
"This is social engineering. This is trying to get people to get another person in their car to use the HOV lane and that's not going to happen,"  Anthony said. "People in this community, especially in the northwest, they're like me. I get my car out of the garage, I drive away and I go where I want. I don't want anybody else in the car with me because I don't need them in the car with me, because it's an inconvenience. It's not going to change."

Of the 22 miles of HOV lanes in the Las Vegas Valley, a significant portion of them are actually located within the jurisdiction of the City of Las Vegas–all the lanes on US 95 and Summerlin Parkway, and the roughly 2 miles of HOV lanes set to open on I-15 north of Sahara Avenue (including the new 15/95 flyover and the Neon Gateway HOV interchange, both built as part of Project Neon).

One thing I don't think Councilman Anthony realizes is that the HOV lanes are not only an attempt at congestion mitigation, but also an attempt to improve air quality by encouraging reduced vehicles on the roadway. The Las Vegas area has several days a year that air quality is in non-attainment status, and there are various measures that the local entities are required to implement to help improve that. Not to mention CMAQ (Congestion Mitigation & Air Quality) federal funding is tied to HOV lanes. His cavalier attitude isn't really helping the public recognize these matters–if the Las Vegas Valley is going to continue to grow, moving more people in less space has to be part of the equation.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

Plutonic Panda

I often wonder if HOV lanes cause more traffic than before.

roadfro

The HOV lanes have been in operation for about 2.5 weeks now. It's been widely circulated that by NHP & NDOT that there would be a 30-day grace period on enforcement, with NHP issuing only warnings for HOV violations in the first month. Now they're talking about ramping up enforcement.

HOV lane enforcement to ramp up in Las Vegas, Las Vegas Review-Journal, 6/05/2019
Quote
<...>
Nevada Highway Patrol troopers can pull over motorists they observe breaking the rules and if they do, they give them a verbal warning and alert them to the pending enforcement that kicks in June 20.

NHP doesn't have a record of how many drivers have been warned about breaking HOV lane laws, but NHP spokesman Jason Buratczuk said HOV enforcement is not at the top of NHP's priority list, since no tickets are being issued yet and there are other tasks to worry about.
<...>
After the 30-day grace period ends June 20, NHP troopers are going to be working overtime to cite HOV lane violators, as NDOT, through Project Neon general contractor Kiewit Infrastructure West, will provide the department at least $10,000 to pay for concentrated effort on the new carpool lanes.

"There will be some heavy enforcement going on,"  Buratczuk said.

Tony Illia, Nevada Department of Transportation spokesman, said the amount being provided to NHP for HOV lane enforcement could grow ahead of June 20 to allow for additional enforcement.

"We will consider augmenting it, based upon NHP feedback,"  Illia said.

The article also mentions the City of Las Vegas' opposition to the HOV lanes and their plan to reduce tickets, and a little loophole to the city's plan.
Quote
The NHP has a possible workaround to the city's plan, as state regulations allow troopers to write a ticket to whatever court they choose, no matter what jurisdiction the violation occurs.

So, if a motorist gets an HOV ticket in Las Vegas' jurisdiction, troopers could assign the ticket to the Clark County Court, which would limit the city's ability to reduce HOV tickets.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

roadfro

I was in Las Vegas from Memorial Day weekend to this past Monday. I had occasion to be in the HOV lanes three times, and they were all off-peak. However, there were few people using the HOV lanes when I was in them.

NDOT did install signage to denote when to leave the HOV lanes to reach a particular standard exit (For example: "TO Cheyenne 1/2 mile" followed by "Cheyenne [exit arrow]" where the double solid turns to broken.) Interestingly, "HOV Lane Entrance" signs are not posted at the point where double solid turns to broken line, but a little further downstream, perhaps to manage weaving. Also somewhat interestingly, "HOV Lane Entrance" signs on US 95 are not mounted overhead, but they are on I-15.

Broken line merging distance seems to be longer than what I can recall seeing in southern California. It's maybe 1/4 to 1/2 mile.

At present, it seems a bit difficult to determine where the broken line turns back to double solid. (This might be a temporary phenomenon–several stretches of US 95 and I-15 are getting a resurfacing as part of Project Neon, so the lines might stand out more in some areas.) It might be nice to have some kind of sign indicator where the double solid begins again.

Overall, a decent job in the implementation. Still not sure that 24/7 was the way to go though.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

roadfro

#20
The first day of actual HOV enforcement was Thursday, June 20th. In less than one day, NHP cited several drivers for HOV-related violations.

Nevada Highway Patrol issues 31 citations for HOV lane violations, Las Vegas Review-Journal 6/21/19
Quote
The initial period of enforcement on new high occupancy vehicle lanes in the Las Vegas Valley yielded dozens of citations.

The Nevada Highway Patrol said it handed out 31 HOV violation tickets as of 2 p.m. Friday, after it began policing the lanes Thursday following a 30-day grace period.

Aside from the initial saturation, the NHP will begin targeted enforcement on the U.S. Highway 95 and Interstate 15 carpool lanes on July 1, according to spokesman Jason Buratczuk.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

roadfro

HOV rule clarification...lol

HOV lane rules don't count dead person as passenger in Nevada, Las Vegas Review-Journal, 7/1/19
Quote
A hearse carrying a dead person was pulled over Monday in the HOV lane by the Nevada Highway Patrol on southbound Interstate 15 near Spring Mountain Road.

When NHP Trooper Travis Smaka explained to the driver why he was stopped, the driver asked, "He doesn't count?"  referring to the deceased individual.

"The driver was dead serious,"  NHP Trooper Jason Buratczuk said in a news release.

Smaka chuckled, gave the driver a break and advised him to move out of the HOV lane, according to Buratczuk.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

Verlanka

I could see why that happened. When you're dead you no longer exist. ;-)

jeffandnicole

Quote from: roadfro on July 02, 2019, 10:06:00 AM
HOV rule clarification...lol

HOV lane rules don’t count dead person as passenger in Nevada, Las Vegas Review-Journal, 7/1/19
Quote
A hearse carrying a dead person was pulled over Monday in the HOV lane by the Nevada Highway Patrol on southbound Interstate 15 near Spring Mountain Road.

When NHP Trooper Travis Smaka explained to the driver why he was stopped, the driver asked, “He doesn’t count?” referring to the deceased individual.

“The driver was dead serious,” NHP Trooper Jason Buratczuk said in a news release.

Smaka chuckled, gave the driver a break and advised him to move out of the HOV lane, according to Buratczuk.

The purpose of HOV lanes is to encourage people to carpool to take fewer cars off the road. 

While it does accomplish the same result, they are not to encourage people to die.

roadfro

Las Vegas City Councilman Stavros Anthony is still on a crusade to put a stop to 24/7 HOV enforcement in Las Vegas. He's gotten the city council to support a resolution on the matter.

Las Vegas City Council urges stop to 24/7 HOV lane enforcement, Las Vegas Review-Journal, 7/17/19
Quote
Anthony presented a resolution, which the council passed unanimously, to end the 24/7 regulation of the carpool lanes that run on portions of Interstate 15 and U.S. Highway 95.

The resolution calls for returning HOV lane enforcement to 6 a.m.-10 a.m. and 2 p.m.-7 p.m. Monday through Friday, as the hours were on the original stretch of carpool lanes on U.S. 95 when they were opened to traffic a decade ago.

Only the Nevada Department of Transportation board, chaired by Gov. Steve Sisolak, or NDOT director Kristina Swallow can change HOV regulations. City officials previously were told NDOT wants at least three years to evaluate the lanes' effectiveness.
<...>
Anthony said the intent of the new lane regulations is to change driver behavior and remove some vehicles from the road by promoting carpooling. Despite the push by NDOT, he said, motorists in the Las Vegas Valley are set in their ways, and carpooling can't be forced upon them.

"That's not going to happen in Las Vegas,"  he said. "People like to drive in their own cars by themselves to get where they are (going)."

City Attorney Jeff Dorocak pointed out that Las Vegas cannot change state HOV lane laws. The resolution will be sent to the NDOT board in hopes of encouraging a change back to peak hour enforcement.
<...>
NDOT spokesman Tony Illia said it doesn't have meaningful data yet on the new lanes. "We continue to closely monitor HOV lane usage, which is gradually increasing since being introduced less than two months ago."

Though the 24-hour regulations are new to Las Vegas, they have been in place in other parts of the country, including California, Utah, Washington and Georgia, Illia said.

"Las Vegas is a non-traditional 24-hour town where traffic counts along I-15 and U.S. 95 show that morning commutes begin at 5 a.m. with volumes continuing to grow throughout the day,"  he said. "However, traffic volumes fall to pre-commute/off-peak levels between 10 p.m. and midnight."

The traffic volumes on the two freeways are so low during off-peak hours that an additional lane isn't needed for mobility, Illia said.

"As such, converting the HOV lanes to general traffic usage only increases vehicle weaving and speed variability, thereby reducing motorist safety and increasing the likelihood of crashes,"  he said.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.



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