News:

The AARoads Wiki is live! Come check it out!

Main Menu

How do you define Upstate NY?

Started by empirestate, June 10, 2016, 11:44:08 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

MantyMadTown

Quote from: empirestate on September 25, 2018, 07:55:42 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 24, 2018, 04:08:31 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 23, 2018, 11:55:29 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 21, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.

And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.

I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.

And I am interested in hearing your input; there is no shooting down intended. What, then, are your thoughts?

Anything in New York State that has a general association with New York City. If it's within easy reach of New York City (like if a lot of commuters work there for example), then it's Downstate.

Sounds like you'd adopt more or less the same definition that I would. Is there anything you'd tweak (such as, say, measuring the actual number of commuters rather than just their potential for doing so)?

I wasn't really looking for any actual measurements.
Forget the I-41 haters


empirestate

Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 26, 2018, 02:09:06 AM
Quote from: empirestate on September 25, 2018, 07:55:42 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 24, 2018, 04:08:31 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 23, 2018, 11:55:29 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 21, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.

And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.

I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.

And I am interested in hearing your input; there is no shooting down intended. What, then, are your thoughts?

Anything in New York State that has a general association with New York City. If it's within easy reach of New York City (like if a lot of commuters work there for example), then it's Downstate.

Sounds like you'd adopt more or less the same definition that I would. Is there anything you'd tweak (such as, say, measuring the actual number of commuters rather than just their potential for doing so)?

I wasn't really looking for any actual measurements.

Well, the idea is to find something fairly concrete, to be able to draw a specific line and be able to definitively say, on one side of this line is Upstate, and on the other is not, because of such-and-such observable difference. Commutation is also what I use to draw my line, and I particularize it by saying that areas with Metro North service are not Upstate (or, alternately, that those whole counties that are within the Metropolitan Commuter Tax District are not Upstate).

Since you haven't previously thought of a way to measure this, would you just take that as an appropriate definition, or would you look for something more precise?

MantyMadTown

Quote from: empirestate on September 26, 2018, 11:05:08 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 26, 2018, 02:09:06 AM
Quote from: empirestate on September 25, 2018, 07:55:42 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 24, 2018, 04:08:31 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 23, 2018, 11:55:29 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 21, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.

And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.

I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.

And I am interested in hearing your input; there is no shooting down intended. What, then, are your thoughts?

Anything in New York State that has a general association with New York City. If it's within easy reach of New York City (like if a lot of commuters work there for example), then it's Downstate.

Sounds like you'd adopt more or less the same definition that I would. Is there anything you'd tweak (such as, say, measuring the actual number of commuters rather than just their potential for doing so)?

I wasn't really looking for any actual measurements.

Well, the idea is to find something fairly concrete, to be able to draw a specific line and be able to definitively say, on one side of this line is Upstate, and on the other is not, because of such-and-such observable difference. Commutation is also what I use to draw my line, and I particularize it by saying that areas with Metro North service are not Upstate (or, alternately, that those whole counties that are within the Metropolitan Commuter Tax District are not Upstate).

Since you haven't previously thought of a way to measure this, would you just take that as an appropriate definition, or would you look for something more precise?

Sounds about right.
Forget the I-41 haters

MattCollopy

2dis:5,10,11,15,20,24,26,29,35,40,44,55,57,64,65,66,68,69,70,71,74(in),75,76(e),77,78,79,80,81,83,84(e)86(e)87,88(ny),90,91,93,95,99.
2dis Clinched:
11,59,66,68,71,76(E)78,83,84(e)86,(e),88(e),99

webny99


vdeane

Bumping this thread because the coronavirus regional reopening provides another interesting new way to look at the subject.  If you go to the site for NY's reopening plan (https://forward.ny.gov/) and click on the Regional Monitoring Dashboard, as I post this, there are four regions that don't meet the new hospitalizations (under 2 per 100k residents) standard: NYC, Long Island, Mid-Hudson, and Western NY.  NYC and the two adjacent regions could thus be termed "downstate", the regions that currently meet all 7 criteria and will be beginning to reopen tomorrow "upstate", with Western NY and the Capital District separate.  Now, I've never really subscribed to having the Capital District and Western NY be separate before... but this makes a case for it.

Fun fact: it looks like there's an actual, official definition - if you click on "COVID-19 tracker: testing & fatalities", there's a "show downstate counties only" button under the map, which reduces it to NYC, Long Island, Westchester County, and Rockland County (in MPO terms, it's the NYMTC area minus Putnam County).  Note that these are also the counties that would remain NY in the various upstate secession proposals that have come and gone.  In his briefings, Cuomo has always seemed to refer to upstate as everything that isn't downstate, so it would seem that this is the closest we'll ever see to "this is definitively what upstate NY is".
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: vdeaneIn his briefings, Cuomo has always seemed to refer to upstate as everything that isn't downstate

I'd say he's really going out on a limb with his definition. :P
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

empirestate

Quote from: vdeane on May 14, 2020, 09:55:10 PM
Fun fact: it looks like there's an actual, official definition - if you click on "COVID-19 tracker: testing & fatalities", there's a "show downstate counties only" button under the map, which reduces it to NYC, Long Island, Westchester County, and Rockland County (in MPO terms, it's the NYMTC area minus Putnam County).

And the MCTD minus Putnam, Orange, and Dutchess, where I now live.

I do agree that the pandemic has reinforced the connectivity between regions. The fact the southern Dutchess is still very much within the NYC sphere of influence has a big effect on our perceptions of potential reopening.

7/8

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on May 14, 2020, 11:26:58 PM
Quote from: vdeaneIn his briefings, Cuomo has always seemed to refer to upstate as everything that isn't downstate

I'd say he's really going out on a limb with his definition. :P

Everyone's forgetting about midstate New York. :sombrero:

3467

The Illinois map is very much like the New York one .Not surprising because our Gov is watching them. The Downstate Illinois epidemic is still slaughterhouses and nursing homes.The lockdown has limited community spread.compare Iowa population 2.9 million to at 15083 to downstate Illinois at 9826 4.5 million.

roadman65

From what I understand you can have it and never get the symptoms, but spread it.  That is old news of course, but new news is that OneBlood is now screening blood donations and those that have had it and built up antibodies in the blood, are being considered for one who has been diagnosed with COVID19 in an attempt to build antibodies up in the receiver's blood stream.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: 3467 on May 18, 2020, 11:35:15 PM
The Illinois map is very much like the New York one .Not surprising because our Gov is watching them. The Downstate Illinois epidemic is still slaughterhouses and nursing homes.The lockdown has limited community spread.compare Iowa population 2.9 million to at 15083 to downstate Illinois at 9826 4.5 million.

I always felt "downstate"  essentially refereed to anything outside I-90, even west/northwest of Rockford.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

J3ebrules

Cold.



... oh, you meant location. Eh, my family was from Rockland - a stone's throw from the NJ border. For us, upstate NY was "Not NY City or Anything Attached to It"  (sorry, Westchester County).
Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike - they’ve all come to look for America! (Simon & Garfunkel)

Roadgeekteen

Quote from: J3ebrules on May 20, 2020, 12:14:24 AM
Cold.



... oh, you meant location. Eh, my family was from Rockland - a stone's throw from the NJ border. For us, upstate NY was "Not NY City or Anything Attached to It"  (sorry, Westchester County).
All of New York is cold, state and city.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

webny99

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 20, 2020, 12:26:19 AM
All of New York is cold, state and city.

Upstate is colder, because it's both inland and further north. In fact upstate is famous for snow, while snow is a big deal in NYC.

empirestate

Quote from: J3ebrules on May 20, 2020, 12:14:24 AM
... oh, you meant location. Eh, my family was from Rockland - a stone's throw from the NJ border. For us, upstate NY was "Not NY City or Anything Attached to It"  (sorry, Westchester County).

Well, actually I meant observable or measurable differences, not merely location. Was there something about life on the west shore of the Hudson that was distinct from that on the east shore? Or another way to think about it is, if you were randomly dropped somewhere in New York, and had no way to find your location on the map, could you look around at something in the world and definitively say "Oh, I'm somewhere Upstate"?

(As an aside, it's interesting that your family's definition also places Suffolk County Upstate.)

Roadgeekteen

Quote from: J3ebrules on May 20, 2020, 12:14:24 AM
Cold.



... oh, you meant location. Eh, my family was from Rockland - a stone's throw from the NJ border. For us, upstate NY was "Not NY City or Anything Attached to It"  (sorry, Westchester County).
What does "attached to NYC" mean?
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

noelbotevera

Having been to NY several times since 2015, I think I can give more concrete answer to this question.

The point at which Upstate begins would be the Croton Reservoir.

Population density at this point reaches a sharp drop off, and Hudson River tolls significantly decrease north of this point. Gas stations off I-84 tend to be smaller, more common, and less integrated into restaurants (unlike gas stations in the NYC area or along major roads like the Hutch or Merritt in CT). This area is also the midst of the Catskills, the traditional vacation country for NYC folk, and also where major utilities such as power and water are sourced (near the Croton Aqueduct, which supplied the city for a century). It's also the area where phrases referring to Upstate originate; going "up the river" referred to going to Sing Sing Correctional.

Another point of interest is Metro North passenger data (see PDF pages 49-50) (okay, a survey, but Metro-North info is oddly hard to find). Drawing the Upstate-Downstate dividing line at Katonah (Harlem line) and Cortlandt (Hudson line) - both at roughly the same latitude, you'll notice that far less passengers board north of these stations.

empirestate

Quote from: noelbotevera on May 20, 2020, 05:12:03 PM
Having been to NY several times since 2015, I think I can give more concrete answer to this question.

The point at which Upstate begins would be the Croton Reservoir.

Do you mean the New Croton Reservoir, in mid-northern Westchester?

QuoteThis area is also the midst of the Catskills, the traditional vacation country for NYC folk, and also where major utilities such as power and water are sourced (near the Croton Aqueduct, which supplied the city for a century).

Westchester County is in no way in even the fringes of the Catskills, much less the midst. At the very least, that region lies entirely west of the Hudson. Maybe you're thinking of the Ashokan Reservoir, or one of the others up that way?

QuoteAnother point of interest is Metro North passenger data (see PDF pages 49-50) (okay, a survey, but Metro-North info is oddly hard to find). Drawing the Upstate-Downstate dividing line at Katonah (Harlem line) and Cortlandt (Hudson line) - both at roughly the same latitude, you'll notice that far less passengers board north of these stations.

But there are, of course, still passengers...and the proportion of them who are commuting to and from NYC still vastly outweighs those traveling intra-regionally. To me, the fact that there's this kind of inter-connectivity to the city is the very defining characteristic of the non-Upstate region. (You also mentioned earlier the connection of the Catskill to the city, as a prominent vacation retreat. Even that connectivity, to me, suggest the possibility that the Catskills are a Downstate region.)

It's true there is a certain shift in the character of the area as you cross that approximate point, but I'd consider it more of a suburban/exurban divide, rather than Downstate/Upstate. To me, it's less about the number of people making trips to and from the city, but rather the fact that such trips are even feasible.

noelbotevera

#294
Quote from: empirestate on May 20, 2020, 06:53:45 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on May 20, 2020, 05:12:03 PM
Having been to NY several times since 2015, I think I can give more concrete answer to this question.

The point at which Upstate begins would be the Croton Reservoir.

Do you mean the New Croton Reservoir, in mid-northern Westchester?

QuoteThis area is also the midst of the Catskills, the traditional vacation country for NYC folk, and also where major utilities such as power and water are sourced (near the Croton Aqueduct, which supplied the city for a century).

Westchester County is in no way in even the fringes of the Catskills, much less the midst. At the very least, that region lies entirely west of the Hudson. Maybe you're thinking of the Ashokan Reservoir, or one of the others up that way?

QuoteAnother point of interest is Metro North passenger data (see PDF pages 49-50) (okay, a survey, but Metro-North info is oddly hard to find). Drawing the Upstate-Downstate dividing line at Katonah (Harlem line) and Cortlandt (Hudson line) - both at roughly the same latitude, you'll notice that far less passengers board north of these stations.

But there are, of course, still passengers...and the proportion of them who are commuting to and from NYC still vastly outweighs those traveling intra-regionally. To me, the fact that there's this kind of inter-connectivity to the city is the very defining characteristic of the non-Upstate region. (You also mentioned earlier the connection of the Catskill to the city, as a prominent vacation retreat. Even that connectivity, to me, suggest the possibility that the Catskills are a Downstate region.)

It's true there is a certain shift in the character of the area as you cross that approximate point, but I'd consider it more of a suburban/exurban divide, rather than Downstate/Upstate. To me, it's less about the number of people making trips to and from the city, but rather the fact that such trips are even feasible.
I'm referring to the New Croton Reservoir, adjacent to Harriman State Park. Also: I'm dumb. Yes, the Catskills are farther north.

I also consider utility sources to be significant; it means that there's (generally) fewer people who live there and less likely to be inconvenienced. For example, the Quabbin Reservoir supplies most of Boston's water; would you consider that area to be part of the Boston metro area?

The Metro-North connection you refer to could also be chalked up to a lack of rail transit in the area (no E-W lines) but also intent of Metro-North (get passengers from the suburbs to the city). When you put it that way, there is a definite connection to NYC. But I think the fact that there's few passengers north of either point means more car ownership and thus characteristics similar to rural areas (say, the Southern Tier). Perhaps housing prices might be another possible dividing line; whether prices in Peekskill are significantly lower than Yonkers or White Plains might signify a looser connection to NYC.

J3ebrules

Quote from: empirestate on May 20, 2020, 01:42:06 PM
Quote from: J3ebrules on May 20, 2020, 12:14:24 AM
... oh, you meant location. Eh, my family was from Rockland - a stone's throw from the NJ border. For us, upstate NY was "Not NY City or Anything Attached to It"  (sorry, Westchester County).

Well, actually I meant observable or measurable differences, not merely location. Was there something about life on the west shore of the Hudson that was distinct from that on the east shore? Or another way to think about it is, if you were randomly dropped somewhere in New York, and had no way to find your location on the map, could you look around at something in the world and definitively say "Oh, I'm somewhere Upstate"?

(As an aside, it's interesting that your family's definition also places Suffolk County Upstate.)

HA! Long Island would have not counted as upstate because it's physically attached to NYC (through Brooklyn/Queens). But there was always this sense in Rockland that the easternmost counties were somehow different from the rest of "Upstate"  NY - for some reason, I never considered Westchester County as fitting in, somehow. Maybe because they are geographically south of the NJ northern border of NY, or somehow... some how distinctly ($$$?) closer to CT culturally? I couldn't imagine a Rockland County person arguing that White Plains isn't part of that "Upstate"  designation.

When it comes down to it, I believe that Upstate New York is always simply North of where that New Yorker is from (And sometimes inclusive of where that New Yorker lives, depending on the person),  until you get somewhere around the Adirondacks. They know they're in Upstate NY and there's not much NY left to go!
Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike - they’ve all come to look for America! (Simon & Garfunkel)

J3ebrules

Gah, for someone who has been unthinkingly referring to “Upstate New York” literally my entire life, with family in Rockland and being born and raised in Hudson County, NJ as a child, this is really twisting my head at how elusive this definition is to pin down!!

Talk about taking a concept for granted!
Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike - they’ve all come to look for America! (Simon & Garfunkel)

Roadgeekteen

Quote from: J3ebrules on May 20, 2020, 11:48:26 PM
Quote from: empirestate on May 20, 2020, 01:42:06 PM
Quote from: J3ebrules on May 20, 2020, 12:14:24 AM
... oh, you meant location. Eh, my family was from Rockland - a stone's throw from the NJ border. For us, upstate NY was "Not NY City or Anything Attached to It"  (sorry, Westchester County).

Well, actually I meant observable or measurable differences, not merely location. Was there something about life on the west shore of the Hudson that was distinct from that on the east shore? Or another way to think about it is, if you were randomly dropped somewhere in New York, and had no way to find your location on the map, could you look around at something in the world and definitively say "Oh, I'm somewhere Upstate"?

(As an aside, it's interesting that your family's definition also places Suffolk County Upstate.)

HA! Long Island would have not counted as upstate because it's physically attached to NYC (through Brooklyn/Queens). But there was always this sense in Rockland that the easternmost counties were somehow different from the rest of "Upstate"  NY - for some reason, I never considered Westchester County as fitting in, somehow. Maybe because they are geographically south of the NJ northern border of NY, or somehow... some how distinctly ($$$?) closer to CT culturally? I couldn't imagine a Rockland County person arguing that White Plains isn't part of that "Upstate"  designation.

When it comes down to it, I believe that Upstate New York is always simply North of where that New Yorker is from (And sometimes inclusive of where that New Yorker lives, depending on the person),  until you get somewhere around the Adirondacks. They know they're in Upstate NY and there's not much NY left to go!
Do people in Poughkeepsie and Kingston really think they are downstate? Even Albany?
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

Rothman

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 20, 2020, 11:51:28 PM
Quote from: J3ebrules on May 20, 2020, 11:48:26 PM
Quote from: empirestate on May 20, 2020, 01:42:06 PM
Quote from: J3ebrules on May 20, 2020, 12:14:24 AM
... oh, you meant location. Eh, my family was from Rockland - a stone's throw from the NJ border. For us, upstate NY was "Not NY City or Anything Attached to It"  (sorry, Westchester County).

Well, actually I meant observable or measurable differences, not merely location. Was there something about life on the west shore of the Hudson that was distinct from that on the east shore? Or another way to think about it is, if you were randomly dropped somewhere in New York, and had no way to find your location on the map, could you look around at something in the world and definitively say "Oh, I'm somewhere Upstate"?

(As an aside, it's interesting that your family's definition also places Suffolk County Upstate.)

HA! Long Island would have not counted as upstate because it's physically attached to NYC (through Brooklyn/Queens). But there was always this sense in Rockland that the easternmost counties were somehow different from the rest of "Upstate"  NY - for some reason, I never considered Westchester County as fitting in, somehow. Maybe because they are geographically south of the NJ northern border of NY, or somehow... some how distinctly ($$$?) closer to CT culturally? I couldn't imagine a Rockland County person arguing that White Plains isn't part of that "Upstate"  designation.

When it comes down to it, I believe that Upstate New York is always simply North of where that New Yorker is from (And sometimes inclusive of where that New Yorker lives, depending on the person),  until you get somewhere around the Adirondacks. They know they're in Upstate NY and there's not much NY left to go!
Do people in Poughkeepsie and Kingston really think they are downstate? Even Albany?
No.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

webny99

Quote from: Rothman on May 21, 2020, 07:33:03 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 20, 2020, 11:51:28 PM
Do people in Poughkeepsie and Kingston really think they are downstate? Even Albany?
No.

Westchester and Rockland: Definitely yes.
Poughkeepsie and Kingston: Questionable. To me, they are downstate, and I would think being closer to the *real* upstate would give them a more balanced perspective, but who knows?  :)
Albany: Definitely no.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.