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Author Topic: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?  (Read 116741 times)

rschen7754

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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2015, 11:11:42 PM »

terescoj did have contact with Tim once in December about the site.  I'll let him comment about what that was about if he wants to.
The problem is that there's a TON of code that's been written over the years that none of us have access to, and we wouldn't be able to use it without permission even if we had such access.



Perhaps any replacement should be run by at least a few people, so it's not all depending on one person to keep things going.
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2015, 05:57:44 AM »

Not sure how a clickable interface would be any better, since you could have up to a couple hundred clicks just for a single route...


Only if you fail at designing interfaces. You should be able to select a waypoint as the start, another as the end, and then the site hits all the segments in between for you. Having each segment as a checkbox would be silly.
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2015, 08:04:44 AM »

Not sure how a clickable interface would be any better, since you could have up to a couple hundred clicks just for a single route...

Only if you fail at designing interfaces. You should be able to select a waypoint as the start, another as the end, and then the site hits all the segments in between for you. Having each segment as a checkbox would be silly.

Or you can just use a text editor to log the starting and ending endpoints, as we've been doing.  It's not that hard!  Re-tracing your travels, to find the routes you've traveled and the endpoints of your travel on each, is usually the hard part.  Complicating things is that there are often closely-spaced potential endpoints (like several intersections with numbered routes within a mile of each other, or closely-spaced exits), so you'd need to look carefully at the screen to figure out which point to click, even if you know which one it should be.

Even if there were a clickable interface, it should result in a text list file like we have now, which would be what the system processes to generate maps and statistics.  That would not only help those of us who already have large list files and would prefer not to get into a clickable interface to re-enter all that data, but also would provide an off-line backup in case of a system meltdown (or to consult if internet access is not available when we need it). 
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2015, 09:07:10 AM »

Perhaps any replacement should be run by at least a few people, so it's not all depending on one person to keep things going.

I think this would be an essential feature of any replacement site.  It would need to have a small number of people who make big decisions about the direction of the project but it would be great if it could carry on without a dependence on any one or even a few people.
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2015, 11:40:15 AM »

I don't find the pale unclinched colors to be hard to see, but if you need something darker, there's always the "CHM" map layers in the highway browser.
Neither of us want a map that looks like this:

Or at least not for the purposes we were suggesting!

I was talking about a map showing a single system, and not having it be pale (it is visible, but not greatly so).

Mapmikey was talking about a map showing unclinched mileage more dominantly.

As you can see, the clinched stuff keeps drawing the eye while the unclinched (especially the orange/brown) fades into the background.
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2015, 11:54:09 AM »

Seems simple enough to do with an image editor, replacing one color with another. Except for short unclinched roads that are drawn under clinched roads due to being too close.
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2015, 12:23:38 PM »


Personally I've been keeping my LIST file up to date, so that I can be up to date when/if the site sees another update, or if the site has to be rebuilt by others. And if neither of those things happens I at least still have the data and can find a way to do something with it myself.


I've not only been keeping my LIST file up to date, I have been keeping a separate LIST file for Indiana state highways, just in case those ever get added to this site or its successor.  My stats would improve significantly if IN highways ever get added.
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2015, 01:11:53 PM »

Mapmikey was talking about a map showing unclinched mileage more dominantly.



Mapmikey was talking about showing unclinched mileage as if it were the clinched mileage and the clinched mileage as if it were the unclinched.  Not sure if that is what you were saying there...

Mapmikey
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2015, 03:34:38 PM »

I've not only been keeping my LIST file up to date, I have been keeping a separate LIST file for Indiana state highways, just in case those ever get added to this site or its successor.  My stats would improve significantly if IN highways ever get added.
I've got files made from some time in the summer when I had nothing to do.

But I shouldn't have done them as it wasn't mine to do (though the offer for someone else to do it was made, and I didn't get a response to my offer to do it). So maybe within a year with a successor site (as the peer review takes a while and I also have other stuff 'in the queue'), and probably never if the old site stays.
Mapmikey was talking about showing unclinched mileage as if it were the clinched mileage and the clinched mileage as if it were the unclinched.  Not sure if that is what you were saying there...
It was what I meant. If you look at my London map, your eyes are drawn to NW of the map where most routes are clinched, not the almost-totally unclinched area in the SE (I have been to Hastings, but by train. The brown line there is what I did on foot), or the empty (routes not yet activated as Tim said he'd peer review them about 2 years ago, but never finished doing it) NE. The clinched colour is the dominant one, you want the unclinched one to be dominant.

I tried NE2's invert suggestion (and then relightened the background using Paint's right-click erase) - it sort of works, sort of doesn't. Those lines aren't one-pixel of one colour, but have that whatdoyoucallit thing where edges are softened and there's annoying off-colour pixels surrounding the line.
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2015, 09:41:00 PM »

But I shouldn't have done them as it wasn't mine to do

I feel like this in and of itself is toxic philosophy. Why have a turf war? If someone is willing to put in the effort to create something, their work ought to be appreciated and, if possible, used.
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2015, 11:53:15 PM »

Here are some of my thoughts for those considering working toward a replacement for the current CHM site.

My understanding of how the overall system works is that its entire state is determined by the descriptions of highway systems in the csv and wpt files built by the CHM collaborators, plus the .list files maintained and sent in by the site's users.  When a "site update" runs, all of that information is ingested into the system and placed into a back-end database.  I believe the previous database contents are simply thrown out and recreated from these files.  It's that database that gets queried to generate all of the pages we know and enjoy: the highway browser, all of our maps, and other stats.  There is also a lot of error checking that happens to ensure no bad data enters the system and to flag potential errors (many of which have painstakingly been reported as "false positive" errors over the years).

So I think the site could be recreated in pieces.  The ingestion of text files into the database would likely be a program or script run on a Linux/Unix system where all of the files exist, and where both the database daemon and the web server would be running.  Initially, all of that extra error checking could be left out just to get something running.  Once there is the ability to create the database, writing all those web pages that query it and generate maps and stats would come next.  The highway browser is probably the simplest of these (though far from trivial).  The Google Maps API does a lot of the hard work, and it should not be hard to pull out the appropriate waypoint labels in order to be plotted.  The full functionality of being able to click through to other roads/regions and to show a user's clinched segments could all be placed at a lower priority.  The generation of user and overall stats doesn't seem too terrible, though I know a lot of work was done to avoid double-counting clinched concurrencies, and to ensure a user gets "credit" for all concurrent routes on a segment even if only one of them is shown in his or her .list file.  Then there's the issue of user maps.  I can't remember the name of the library that generates those maps (like those quoted upthread here) but I'm sure we could figure it out.  Then it's a matter of drawing those maps, on demand, when users are navigating the site.  I'd also be interested in seeing an option that works more directly in Google Maps, but I'd hate to lose the simplicity of the maps the site produces now.

I have seen requests here (and many times in the past in the CHM forum) for a clickable interface to plot your travels.  While I'm in the camp of those who'd rather edit a file than try to click around on a map, I do think it's a nice feature to have.  I'd see it as almost a standalone piece of the project.  Yes, it would need to read the database to get the information from the route descriptions (the CSV and WPT files), but I see this as something where you can upload your .list file, view it in a map/tabular environment, and your result is a new version of your .list file.  I envision something where you could zoom in on places where you are looking to add your new segments, and do something like drag from a starting waypoint to an ending waypoint.  It would then show you what segment would be added and if you approve, it would be added to your .list file.

One of the most important features (and one I know was in the works on the existing site) is the ability for users to be able to upload their own .list files.  There are a surprising number of complications that arise to support this, most importantly that there would need to be some sort of user/password system to ensure users could only update their own .lists, and that we would want to avoid the potential for spam and malicious submissions that could expose security flaws or result in denial of service attacks.  But this does seem like an important feature, and one, if in place now on the current system, would allow the users of the site to continue using it to update their travels, even if no highway data updates were able to take place.

Then there's the issue raised in some recent posts about who can update the highway data.  I think there are many models out there, with varying degrees of success, where some sort of trusted data is maintained by a community.  It seems such a model could work with this project.  We already had this, though in a limited fashion, with the peer review process of new systems, but the single person bottleneck remains for getting those reviewed updates live in the system.  The project could expand more quickly the more people who were able to review and correct existing data and propose new data to be added, but I'd hate to see the overall quality of the data (accuracy of routes, appropriate density of routes, consistency in naming conventions, etc.) suffer.  There are also issues of making sure sources are cited, and sources used are not copyrighted.

Even if the current system returns to a more active status, I think efforts to replicate and possibly improve upon its functionality are worthwhile.  But even if we could find a few people with the appropriate skills and experience to put some time into it, it would be quite some time before we had something approaching what's there.  As I said before, I am holding out hope for the existing system and that it will evolve into a system without that single person bottleneck.  If something like a .list editor were implemented, or a nicer highway browser, or new ways to view your travels, they might be adopted by the existing site.


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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2015, 10:35:17 AM »


But I shouldn't have done them as it wasn't mine to do

I feel like this in and of itself is toxic philosophy. Why have a turf war? If someone is willing to put in the effort to create something, their work ought to be appreciated and, if possible, used.

This times infinity.

Maybe I've spent too long helping Mike with Open Street Map, but I personally believe open data access is superior to perfect data. There will always be kinks to be worked out - but by working together, they can be solved.

What obstacles remain in allowing everyone to upload their own lists or to add additional admins that can do it? Personally, the "week" wait before was incredibly slow, and it was annoying to have to resubmit data after a week when nothing happened.

If Tim is busy, he should have other contributors step in and fix it.


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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2015, 11:59:15 AM »


If Tim is busy, he should have other contributors step in and fix it.


Amen. I sympathize with the fact that life can become quite difficult in the blink of an eye, but short of being physically incapacitated, I can't see why he can't have found 5 minutes sometime in the last 4 months to pen a short public note that says "I can't do this anymore, is there one of you I can pass the reins to, please?"

And if he doesn't wish (or need) to give up control of the site entirely, why can't he post another one-minute note somewhere that says "I realize that I owe no one anything with regard to this free service I've created, but I realize many of you love it and would hate to see it disappear. Trust me, it will be actively updated again soon. I have no timeline, but I'll let you know as soon as I can, and I promise a brief note posted here [wherever that is] once a month."

It would be so easy to do, and it's absolutely perplexing why it hasn't been done.
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2015, 02:21:46 PM »

It would be so easy to do, and it's absolutely perplexing why it hasn't been done.
Yes, the lack of a posting is the worst.
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2015, 09:36:12 PM »

Back when we were first looking at potentially re-creating CHM, we actually managed to parse the data and .list files as well as re-create the maps with JavaScript and the HTML5 Canvas tag.  Here's a render: http://nysroads.com/chm/66in.htm

We haven't really done development since the last contact with Tim made us question whether the side was all dead or just mostly dead.  I don't know when the effort might resume.
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2015, 10:31:56 PM »

We haven't really done development since the last contact with Tim made us question whether the side was all dead or just mostly dead.
Quote from: Miracle Max
Now, mostly dead means slightly alive.
I couldn't resist that.  :)

But seriously, I hope this gets back up... in some form or fashion.
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2015, 03:02:23 PM »

Honestly I think at this point resuming efforts to rebuild might be wise. I get the sense we are up against someone who wants to continue the project eventually but lacks the ability to do so and also lacks the willingness to admit it because he'd rather let it fizzle and whither than pass the reins to someone else.

CHM from the beginning has been operated as one person's personal project and we are now seeing the end game of that when said person cannot or does not want to continue it. Everyone went along with it because for a while it worked and was the path of least resistance but it never should have been done this way. It is a project that serves a whole community and it is high time we treat it as such, with decisions made by community consensus and editing open to whoever is capable and willing.
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2015, 03:37:22 PM »

CHM from the beginning has been operated as one person's personal project and we are now seeing the end game of that when said person cannot or does not want to continue it. Everyone went along with it because for a while it worked and was the path of least resistance but it never should have been done this way. It is a project that serves a whole community and it is high time we treat it as such, with decisions made by community consensus and editing open to whoever is capable and willing.

Does how the AARoads Forum started and evolved, into a multi-collaborator effort growing beyond the original AARoads team, offer any lessons here?  I ask the question as someone who didn't sign up here until it was well-established, so I don't know much of the story other than a little bit about one crisis overcome (before my time) to reassert collective control over this project. rickmastfan67, who is both a administrator here and a CHM collaborator, and Bickendan, a moderator here who once was active at CHM, might be in a particularly good position to comment. 
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 03:40:20 PM by oscar »
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2015, 03:42:59 PM »

I suppose this is kinda like the V'Ger incident, but more prolonged and without all the battles.

As grateful as I am to Tim for creating and maintaining the CHM site for many years, his "my way or the highway" (pun not intended) attitude and insistence on keeping things locked down has been an issue for a while.  Updates would probably be faster on a CHM replacement simple because the arguments with Tim that held up things like the Vermont state highways wouldn't occur.
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2015, 04:08:48 PM »

Updates would probably be faster on a CHM replacement simple because the arguments with Tim that held up things like the Vermont state highways wouldn't occur.

To be fair, Tim's central control over the project did help maintain a consistent approach and "look and feel" of various regions covered by the project, from Alaska to Azerbaijan (any ambitions to expand beyond North America and Europe -- Tim made a point of not letting CHM become too U.S.-centric, something important to him and IMO a good ideal to pursue -- petered out as the project outgrew the current management model). A multi-member management team would have to deal with similar issues, though perhaps with different results.

My own management style in my previous career, especially on keeping the collaborator team small, in some way eerily resembles Tim's. Of course, in my previous job it helped that I had people working for me earning six-figure salaries, who worked evenings, weekends, and holidays in addition to the usual 40-hour work week as needed to get the job done. Access to a multi-million dollar budget (paid in part by the U.S. taxpayers among you) also helped, as well as a management above me who could gently (or not) transition one of my projects when it grew to require a much larger team than I could manage on my own.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 04:40:24 PM by oscar »
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2015, 05:19:40 PM »

Honestly I think at this point resuming efforts to rebuild might be wise. I get the sense we are up against someone who wants to continue the project eventually but lacks the ability to do so and also lacks the willingness to admit it because he'd rather let it fizzle and whither than pass the reins to someone else.
This, absolutely this.
I suppose this is kinda like the V'Ger incident, but more prolonged and without all the battles.
I'm not getting this reference.
Quote
As grateful as I am to Tim for creating and maintaining the CHM site for many years, his "my way or the highway" (pun not intended) attitude and insistence on keeping things locked down has been an issue for a while.  Updates would probably be faster on a CHM replacement simple because the arguments with Tim that held up things like the Vermont state highways wouldn't occur.
We'd have been up to August's submissions on the last round of ingested highway data updates if Tim had trusted that I had done my research (which took a good few hours, to add to my annoyance at this) correctly (OK, I only gave him a summary of the process I had gone through, but still), on a July update, rather than spend an hour wondering why 2009 GMSV images weren't showing 201x route changes and another hour writing a response to my submission having a go at me. :no:

And goodness, I forgot that Vermont stuff. Reading it, it just trailed off with no one agreeing to either of Tim's proposed solutions, voicing their disagreement and then hearing nothing in response. It's that sort of thing that makes me somewhat hope for a new site.
To be fair, Tim's central control over the project did help maintain a consistent approach and "look and feel" of various regions covered by the project
True, but it caused tensions when the local way of doing things didn't fit into how Tim would like it done - as seen in the Vermont debacle about town-maintained state routes. Or many of the transatlantic clashes I had about the way things worked in Britain. The manual for creating files is enough to get consistency (or ought to be - often Tim, if he was peer reviewing, was arbitrary and inconsistent as to what was important - cf the bridge row I had with him and eventually won when others said that he had told them to remove points they had put in because of that instruction), it doesn't need a heavy-handed approach to peer reviewing or treating every state highway network (or British A roads, etc) like they were Virginia's state highways.

Absolutely there needs to be standards and a reasonable level of conformity, but little pockets of individuality within that are good.
Quote
(any ambitions to expand beyond North America and Europe -- Tim made a point of not letting CHM become too U.S.-centric, something important to him and IMO a good ideal to pursue -- petered out as the project outgrew the current management model)
I have some (well, most of 'phase 1 and phase 2 systems' complete) Malaysian, Singaporean and Hong Kong routes sitting on my computer. Plus some work on Moroccan, Algerian and Tunisian motorways and Asian Highways in countries that also have E roads (only got half of Turkey and Russia, but have all the rest done).

Also, on the European front, I have further systems for most of my European regions (most of which were complete, or nearly when I finished them, but will need polishing) as well as some of the microstates. Andorra CG roads, Maltese 1/2 digit Roads, Finnish Vt and Kt roads, Belarussian M roads, Ukrainian M roads, Moldovan M roads, Latvian A roads, Estonian MT roads, Lithuanian A roads, Romanian DN roads, Belgian B and R roads, Aland Vt and Kt Roads, French N roads, Dutch N roads (2 digit and perhaps 3 provinces worth of 3-digit). Oh, and Danish PR roads, which isn't one of my regions (ditto Eurasian ones).

Of course, none of this will see the light of day on the existing site.
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2015, 05:31:40 PM »

What's the problem with town maintained routes? They're signed and state-recognized, so they exist.
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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2015, 07:10:15 PM »

What's the problem with town maintained routes? They're signed and state-recognized, so they exist.
I agree, there shouldn't be one. Although, sometimes the state doesn't recognize them officially, but that's no excuse for throwing them out.
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The traveler sees what he sees, the tourist sees what he has come to see. - G.K. Chesterton

hbelkins

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    • Millennium Highway
Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2015, 08:16:01 PM »

As grateful as I am to Tim for creating and maintaining the CHM site for many years, his "my way or the highway" (pun not intended) attitude and insistence on keeping things locked down has been an issue for a while.

If it's his site -- if he's paying the hosting and domain registration fees and doing the work -- then he can do whatever he pleases, and others are free to participate or not. I don't participate because it's not in the format that I prefer, but I don't have the right to demand a clickable map format or demand that he turn the site over to others who would manage it differently.

He doesn't owe the roadgeek community in general, or users of the site in particular, anything. He pays the bills, he does the work, and he can set the rules.
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yakra

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Re: Is the Clinched Highway Mapping site still active?
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2015, 08:55:04 PM »

Ugh, Vermont...
What's the problem with town maintained routes? They're signed and state-recognized, so they exist.
THIS. It really is this simple.
Instead, Tim got hung up on the phrase "Town Highways" that VTRANS uses to refer to certain classes of roads, without having an adequate understanding of how these roads fit into the larger picture of road classification statewide. That and the peculiarity of how some town-maintained segments were signed with a different style shield caused Tim to insist that town-maintained routes should be part of a different route system, and not included. (Really, the oddity of the signing issue aside, it's no different from the town-maintained state routes in a number of other places, such as ME and NH.)
All of Froggie's and my (and others') best efforts to convince Tim otherwise just seemed to hit a brick wall; eventually we (or, I, at least) just got worn out and stopped fighting.
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"Officer, I'm always careful to drive the speed limit no matter where I am and that's what I was doin'." Said "No, you weren't," she said, "Yes, I was." He said, "Madam, I just clocked you at 22 MPH," and she said "That's the speed limit," he said "No ma'am, that's the route numbah!"  - Gary Crocker

 


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