Doghouses at Side Signal Only Intersection

Started by Brian556, June 07, 2018, 11:28:59 PM

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jakeroot

Quote from: traffic light guy on June 28, 2018, 09:57:25 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on June 28, 2018, 12:55:15 PM
It's just IL, MN, and WI that don't have doghouses really at all.  At least that's all in this area.  I'm sure there are other states that don't use them, like maybe CA.

I know a few states where doghouses are normal. In Pennsylvania, especially in the southeastern part of the state, they're extremely common, Delaware, not so much, New Jersey doesn't use them often. In Alabama and Virginia, they're used every now and then.

+ Washington and Oregon, where if FYAs aren't used, there's a 99% chance the signal will be a doghouse (or in western Washington, a bi-modal four-section tower). Utah, Idaho, Colorado, and Nevada (AFAIK) all use doghouses overhead. I think Montana uses bi-modal signals like some areas of Washington.

As I mentioned before (post #2), Spokane has a particular love-love relationship with the doghouse, using the layout even on masts and poles where towers would normally be used.


US 89

#26
I don’t think there are any signalized intersections in Utah without overhead signals. There are a few examples of side-mounted doghouse signals, like this one in Park City:



Side-mounted supplemental signals are relatively rare in Utah, so this kind of thing isn’t that common. But 5-section towers are extremely rare; there are probably 5 or so intersections in the entire state with them.

Overhead doghouses are relatively common, though they are gradually being replaced with FYAs (this process is much faster with UDOT signals than those operated by cities). New installations almost always use FYA, with the one exception being when a previously permissive-only intersection is converted to protected-permissive phasing without a new mast arm.




Quote from: jakeroot on June 29, 2018, 01:11:31 AM
I think Montana uses bi-modal signals like some areas of Washington.

They do, at least in the Kalispell area. I can’t speak for other parts of MT.

roadfro

Quote from: jakeroot on June 29, 2018, 01:11:31 AM
Quote from: traffic light guy on June 28, 2018, 09:57:25 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on June 28, 2018, 12:55:15 PM
It's just IL, MN, and WI that don't have doghouses really at all.  At least that's all in this area.  I'm sure there are other states that don't use them, like maybe CA.

I know a few states where doghouses are normal. In Pennsylvania, especially in the southeastern part of the state, they're extremely common, Delaware, not so much, New Jersey doesn't use them often. In Alabama and Virginia, they're used every now and then.

+ Washington and Oregon, where if FYAs aren't used, there's a 99% chance the signal will be a doghouse (or in western Washington, a bi-modal four-section tower). Utah, Idaho, Colorado, and Nevada (AFAIK) all use doghouses overhead. I think Montana uses bi-modal signals like some areas of Washington.

Confirmed that Nevada uses doghouses for overhead 5-section displays. (There may be isolated cases of 5-section horizontals in use for space-constrained installations, but if one exists I don't know where it would be.)

Overhead doghouses will become more rare in Nevada. FYAs are now the norm. With the typical "overhead signal head per lane" design philosophy used in Nevada, it is unlikely to see a new doghouse signal due to the MUTCD limitations on its use. Also, there had been an active effort to replace doghouses with FYAs shortly after they were adopted in the 2009 MUTCD–I think NDOT had some safety enhancement money that they doled out to municipalities to do some replacements.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

Revive 755

Quote from: paulthemapguy on June 28, 2018, 12:55:15 PM
It's just IL, MN, and WI that don't have doghouses really at all.  At least that's all in this area.  I'm sure there are other states that don't use them, like maybe CA.

From spending time with Streetview, it looks like South Dakota may not use doghouses either.  Iowa seems to have been mostly 5-section towers in the pre-FYA days, with only a few cities such as Iowa City and Council Bluffs using doghouses (although Council Bluffs uses both doghouses and towers).  Arkasnas and Kansas appear to be similar to Iowa, with Kansas appearing to have a more even split between doghouses and towers.


MNHighwayMan

Quote from: Revive 755 on June 30, 2018, 10:36:19 AM
From spending time with Streetview, it looks like South Dakota may not use doghouses either.  Iowa seems to have been mostly 5-section towers in the pre-FYA days, with only a few cities such as Iowa City and Council Bluffs using doghouses (although Council Bluffs uses both doghouses and towers).

Not in Des Moines. Most intersections with protected/permissive phasing use doghouses. FYAs have started appearing but are still relatively few in number.

Revive 755

Quote from: MNHighwayMan on June 30, 2018, 12:09:49 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on June 30, 2018, 10:36:19 AM
From spending time with Streetview, it looks like South Dakota may not use doghouses either.  Iowa seems to have been mostly 5-section towers in the pre-FYA days, with only a few cities such as Iowa City and Council Bluffs using doghouses (although Council Bluffs uses both doghouses and towers).

Not in Des Moines. Most intersections with protected/permissive phasing use doghouses. FYAs have started appearing but are still relatively few in number.

At least on Streetview Des Moines appears to use a mix of doghoueses and towers like Council Bluffs, with possibly a number of bimodal 4-sections in the mix.
Hickman at 30th Street, bimodal four-section?
Hickman at Martin Luther King Jr Parkway, Tower
30th Street at University, Tower
2nd Avenue at University, bimodal 4-section?
Merle Hay at Aurora Avenue, previously a bimodal 4-section?

Amtrakprod

There are so many in MA, I'll list a few:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4112365,-71.1817687,3a,15y,330.23h,92.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBA7xINV_EhQ3NBMbxZYIYQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.447224,-71.2272033,3a,33.2y,68.54h,96.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sD5N5iPpAw0iQf68v6TwfrQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4053058,-71.1644028,3a,20.6y,188.6h,89.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqePEEDxxkl7Wg2_EyvvStw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3964234,-71.1779499,3a,18.8y,271.8h,96.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2QE5soPzQS9CUNgIya6DoQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4057397,-71.1423679,3a,16.8y,300.04h,93.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAjdYfKjpBPt5RU2ruuAuYA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.408605,-71.1456332,3a,21.9y,300.93h,95.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSezX5UnltV7Jv-9u02jWIA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4342694,-71.2417213,3a,18.7y,257.36h,95.83t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1stW-dHIBYK7X-KVoTFCxWrA!2e0!5s20121001T000000!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4013362,-71.2147675,3a,75y,325.75h,94.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smL8ZUVVZFOOA-UMU-x0zcw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3900822,-71.1957123,3a,26.3y,340.2h,90.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNVhxLFGbOW30tcNMdmwprA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3888791,-71.1923644,3a,15.1y,275.32h,92.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sI9CAZ8PJex30hzFXFBdAeA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3783754,-71.1711484,3a,21.3y,92.73h,92.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sy_syKowM9LrvE1x-J0yk1g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3681733,-71.1782984,3a,16.7y,30.5h,92.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sx-9F6HSeWVDeRsJqAm1ZrA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3642339,-71.1859761,3a,75y,281.14h,86.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPrpRMuYQyZEngpZMuoZyDA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3733266,-71.11961,3a,15.3y,29.84h,93.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sU5Uh3XjiwSv3tcGw40__hw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3779346,-71.2252739,3a,27.4y,236.75h,92.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3gXgKP9_CyBAVT_dPqsD8w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I could go on for hours....
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

roadman65

https://goo.gl/maps/inTqWktHaXB2
RDIC uses them along Hotel Plaza Blvd. inside the WDW Resort Complex.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

MNHighwayMan

Quote from: Revive 755 on June 30, 2018, 10:25:30 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on June 30, 2018, 12:09:49 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on June 30, 2018, 10:36:19 AM
From spending time with Streetview, it looks like South Dakota may not use doghouses either.  Iowa seems to have been mostly 5-section towers in the pre-FYA days, with only a few cities such as Iowa City and Council Bluffs using doghouses (although Council Bluffs uses both doghouses and towers).
Not in Des Moines. Most intersections with protected/permissive phasing use doghouses. FYAs have started appearing but are still relatively few in number.
At least on Streetview Des Moines appears to use a mix of doghoueses and towers like Council Bluffs, with possibly a number of bimodal 4-sections in the mix.
Hickman at 30th Street, bimodal four-section?
Hickman at Martin Luther King Jr Parkway, Tower
30th Street at University, Tower
2nd Avenue at University, bimodal 4-section?
Merle Hay at Aurora Avenue, previously a bimodal 4-section?

Yeah, it's really a mixture of all three (doghouses, towers, and four-sections with bimodal arrow). But I still maintain that doghouses are the most common.

RX78NT-1

Quote from: MNHighwayMan on July 01, 2018, 08:13:13 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on June 30, 2018, 10:25:30 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on June 30, 2018, 12:09:49 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on June 30, 2018, 10:36:19 AM
From spending time with Streetview, it looks like South Dakota may not use doghouses either.  Iowa seems to have been mostly 5-section towers in the pre-FYA days, with only a few cities such as Iowa City and Council Bluffs using doghouses (although Council Bluffs uses both doghouses and towers).
Not in Des Moines. Most intersections with protected/permissive phasing use doghouses. FYAs have started appearing but are still relatively few in number.
At least on Streetview Des Moines appears to use a mix of doghoueses and towers like Council Bluffs, with possibly a number of bimodal 4-sections in the mix.
Hickman at 30th Street, bimodal four-section?
Hickman at Martin Luther King Jr Parkway, Tower
30th Street at University, Tower
2nd Avenue at University, bimodal 4-section?
Merle Hay at Aurora Avenue, previously a bimodal 4-section?

Yeah, it's really a mixture of all three (doghouses, towers, and four-sections with bimodal arrow). But I still maintain that doghouses are the most common.

Up until the mid-1990s, Des Moines used the 4-sections with bimodal arrows. They were the older, fiber-optic type (with the dots forming an arrow). I think those have all been phased out by this point (might be wrong on this, though). Later on, 5-section towers started popping up on new signal installations toward the end of the 90s. In the 2000s, DM transitioned from yellow signals without backplates to black-on-black backplate signals, which also led to doghouses-- that might explain why they're common outside of their current replacements, the FYAs.

MNHighwayMan

Whatever they are, fiber optic or LEDs, bimodal four-section heads are still being used in a number of places. Here, here, and here, for example, in addition to the examples Revive 755 posted.

They seem to be more common than I thought. Then again, I didn't really pay attention to traffic signal equipment until relatively recently, thanks to this forum. :-D

RX78NT-1

#36
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on July 01, 2018, 05:22:48 PM
Whatever they are, fiber optic or LEDs, bimodal four-section heads are still being used in a number of places. Here, here, and here, for example, in addition to the examples Revive 755 posted.

They seem to be more common than I thought. Then again, I didn't really pay attention to traffic signal equipment until relatively recently, thanks to this forum. :-D

Yeah, those are the odd ducks. For some reason, Des Moines replaced some left turn signals with 4-section LED bi-modals in the early 2000s- mainly along SE 14th St (Fleur Dr also had a few, but some were 5-section towers). The ones on Watrous and Park were the yellow fiber-optic bi-modals before being replaced, but the Aurora was a yellow 5-section tower. I think the city was experimenting with the different types, then settled on one before FYAs came in.

If you want to go back even further, signals on Fleur used to be median-mounted 8-8-12 signals with a green arrow for left turns in the 70s:


And then were replaced with 12-12-12 signals with a bi-modal 3M arrow in the 80s:


... before being replaced with 5-section towers.

(Somewhat related to the second picture, taken during the '93 floods, it seems you live in the Des Moines Metro area. Hope you were able to stay dry during the recent flash flooding!)

jakeroot

^^
Cool photos! I don't think I've seen a 3M bimodal signal before, at least not in this area. Are they common in some parts of the country? I may have seen one in BC, since they only use bimodal signals, but I can't think of an example at this moment.

MNHighwayMan

Quote from: RX78NT-1 on July 01, 2018, 11:50:20 PM
Yeah, those are the odd ducks. For some reason, Des Moines replaced some left turn signals with 4-section LED bi-modals in the early 2000s- mainly along SE 14th St (Fleur Dr also had a few, but some were 5-section towers). The ones on Watrous and Park were the yellow fiber-optic bi-modals before being replaced, but the Aurora was a yellow 5-section tower. I think the city was experimenting with the different types, then settled on one before FYAs came in.

If you want to go back even further, signals on Fleur used to be median-mounted 8-8-12 signals with a green arrow for left turns in the 70s:
https://i.imgur.com/9RdpOuS.jpg

And then were replaced with 12-12-12 signals with a bi-modal 3M arrow in the 80s:
https://i.imgur.com/ERhRLrw.jpg

... before being replaced with 5-section towers.

(Somewhat related to the second picture, taken during the '93 floods, it seems you live in the Des Moines Metro area. Hope you were able to stay dry during the recent flash flooding!)

I've seen that second picture before (in the context of the floods, anyway), but not that first one! What an odd setup.

And I live on higher ground, so I was fortunate to stay dry, relatively speaking. I ended up having to drive through some minor flooding to get to work that night, though (on Fleur Dr, coincidentally!)

traffic light guy

Quote from: RX78NT-1 on July 01, 2018, 11:50:20 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on July 01, 2018, 05:22:48 PM
Whatever they are, fiber optic or LEDs, bimodal four-section heads are still being used in a number of places. Here, here, and here, for example, in addition to the examples Revive 755 posted.

They seem to be more common than I thought. Then again, I didn't really pay attention to traffic signal equipment until relatively recently, thanks to this forum. :-D

Yeah, those are the odd ducks. For some reason, Des Moines replaced some left turn signals with 4-section LED bi-modals in the early 2000s- mainly along SE 14th St (Fleur Dr also had a few, but some were 5-section towers). The ones on Watrous and Park were the yellow fiber-optic bi-modals before being replaced, but the Aurora was a yellow 5-section tower. I think the city was experimenting with the different types, then settled on one before FYAs came in.

If you want to go back even further, signals on Fleur used to be median-mounted 8-8-12 signals with a green arrow for left turns in the 70s:


And then were replaced with 12-12-12 signals with a bi-modal 3M arrow in the 80s:


... before being replaced with 5-section towers.

(Somewhat related to the second picture, taken during the '93 floods, it seems you live in the Des Moines Metro area. Hope you were able to stay dry during the recent flash flooding!)

Good stuff, I see that they're using arched mast-arms, just like what Pennsylvania was using at the time (During the 70s)

traffic light guy

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1621198,-75.1238701,3a,75y,157.08h,93.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFYl_OfkYlEMQxpfkh698Zw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Don't know if this counts, but my area loves mounting right turn doghouses on the side of the pole, instead of mounting it on the mast-arm

MNHighwayMan

#41
Quote from: traffic light guy on July 02, 2018, 10:36:41 AM
Good stuff, I see that they're using arched mast-arms, just like what Pennsylvania was using at the time (During the 70s)

Well, you'll be disappointed to learn that they've both been replaced with modern mast arms and signals. Picture 1 and Picture 2. (Note that Valley Drive was, at some point after the flood in 1993, renamed George Flagg Parkway.)

traffic light guy

Quote from: MNHighwayMan on July 02, 2018, 11:32:24 AM
Quote from: traffic light guy on July 02, 2018, 10:36:41 AM
Good stuff, I see that they're using arched mast-arms, just like what Pennsylvania was using at the time (During the 70s)

Well, you'll be disappointed to learn that they've both been replaced with modern mast arms and signals. Picture 1 and Picture 2. (Note that Valley Drive was, at some point after the flood in 1993, renamed George Flagg Parkway.)

They don't look to modern, they look like they were installed around 2001

jakeroot

Quote from: traffic light guy on July 02, 2018, 03:59:18 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on July 02, 2018, 11:32:24 AM
Quote from: traffic light guy on July 02, 2018, 10:36:41 AM
Good stuff, I see that they're using arched mast-arms, just like what Pennsylvania was using at the time (During the 70s)

Well, you'll be disappointed to learn that they've both been replaced with modern mast arms and signals. Picture 1 and Picture 2. (Note that Valley Drive was, at some point after the flood in 1993, renamed George Flagg Parkway.)

They don't look to modern, they look like they were installed around 2001

Modern design (sort of -- I don't see mast arms installed without mast lighting much anymore).

Brandon

#44
Quote from: jakeroot on July 02, 2018, 01:47:26 AM
^^
Cool photos! I don't think I've seen a 3M bimodal signal before, at least not in this area. Are they common in some parts of the country? I may have seen one in BC, since they only use bimodal signals, but I can't think of an example at this moment.

We used to have a lot of them in the Joliet area.  Most any intersection (pre-dating 1985, and not having an aluminum truss) had them for the left turn movement.  I wish I could find a photo of them somewhere, but have had no luck to date.

They were a follows:

Red ball - standard round
Yellow ball - standard round
Green ball - standard round
Bimodal arrow (green/yellow) - 3M programmable
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

roadman65

I just remembered this, but in both Homestead, FL and St. Cloud, FL there were four sections used instead of doghouses (or sideways towers as in the former Dade County, FL uses horizontal mounts where doghouses cannot be used).  How it worked was instead of a fiberoptic arrow that could go green or yellow, the bottom was a fixed green color arrow only!  When the permissive left cycle was complete the yellow normal use yellow would activate instead.  The amber was used in two cycles for both straight through and left turn green endings, and the red ball stayed on with the green left arrow, but would go out soon as the left turn permissive was done.

When in normal green mode it would be three greens across and during the left turn phase it would be three reds with the left red having the green arrow.

They all were gone in St. Cloud when mast arms were introduced in the early naughts and in Homestead and along US 1, after 1995 when then Dade County replaced most span wires with the current streamline horizontals thanks to Andrew who the horizontals withstood even the category 5 storm hence why the conversion.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

jakeroot

Quote from: roadman65 on July 03, 2018, 01:19:24 PM
I just remembered this, but in both Homestead, FL and St. Cloud, FL there were four sections used instead of doghouses (or sideways towers as in the former Dade County, FL uses horizontal mounts where doghouses cannot be used).  How it worked was instead of a fiberoptic arrow that could go green or yellow, the bottom was a fixed green color arrow only!  When the permissive left cycle was complete the yellow normal use yellow would activate instead.  The amber was used in two cycles for both straight through and left turn green endings, and the red ball stayed on with the green left arrow, but would go out soon as the left turn permissive was done.

Interesting! That is exactly how signals in Japan work. They use single-use green arrows for left, right, and straight when necessary, in addition to a standard three orb display. When a protected movement expires, the yellow orb comes on, and then the red Orb. The red orb disappears briefly during the yellow orb phase. A bit old-fashioned, if you ask me. but the country still uses fax machines on a wide basis, so I'm not surprised that they would still use such an old-fashioned system.

Rick1962



Quote from: roadman65 on July 03, 2018, 01:19:24 PM
When the permissive left cycle was complete the yellow normal use yellow would activate instead.  The amber was used in two cycles for both straight through and left turn green endings, and the red ball stayed on with the green left arrow, but would go out soon as the left turn permissive was done.

Tulsa used something similar in the '80s and early '90s, with the yellow indication being a 3M PV head.

A similar phasing was used for the original protected-left signals used from the mid '50s to late '70s, which were 8-8-8-8 or 8-8-8-8-8 signal heads on the corners, or with one overhead. Pretty cool seeing straight, right, and left arrows all lit at once!

IIRC, The last of these was at 21st & Utica, removed during signal upgrades around 1978.

SM-T580


paulthemapguy

Quote from: Brandon on July 02, 2018, 05:10:50 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 02, 2018, 01:47:26 AM
^^
Cool photos! I don't think I've seen a 3M bimodal signal before, at least not in this area. Are they common in some parts of the country? I may have seen one in BC, since they only use bimodal signals, but I can't think of an example at this moment.

We used to have a lot of them in the Joliet area.  Most any intersection (pre-dating 1985, and not having an aluminum truss) had them for the left turn movement.  I wish I could find a photo of them somewhere, but have had no luck to date.

They were a follows:

Red ball - standard round
Yellow ball - standard round
Green ball - standard round
Bimodal arrow (green/yellow) - 3M programmable

They were around Kendall County, IL, too, when I first moved there (mid 90s).  I remember one at US34 and IL31 before Washington Street was extended northwest in Oswego, and there was another at Orchard Road and Caterpillar Dr. before Orchard was widened in Montgomery.  There may have been a couple others in the Yorkville/Plano area but I can't remember where.  Here's a GSV for a former setup in Yorkville, though you can't see them in action since it's just a still photo. https://goo.gl/maps/S628Yfa2hPR2
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Super Mateo

Quote from: Brandon on July 02, 2018, 05:10:50 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 02, 2018, 01:47:26 AM
^^
Cool photos! I don't think I've seen a 3M bimodal signal before, at least not in this area. Are they common in some parts of the country? I may have seen one in BC, since they only use bimodal signals, but I can't think of an example at this moment.

We used to have a lot of them in the Joliet area.  Most any intersection (pre-dating 1985, and not having an aluminum truss) had them for the left turn movement.  I wish I could find a photo of them somewhere, but have had no luck to date.

They were a follows:

Red ball - standard round
Yellow ball - standard round
Green ball - standard round
Bimodal arrow (green/yellow) - 3M programmable

It's still better than what some intersections in Chicago proper had.  I remember that 103rd and Western used to have the four section lights, but instead of a bimodal arrow, it was just a green arrow.  The intersection was on timers only, with opposing leading green arrows, then the arrows would disappear with no yellow, just a short pause before the green ball appeared.



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