Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?

[PHLBOS]

I assume these locations are other previous airport locations.

Correct, but none of them are the size of PHL... both then & especially now.

[Beltway]

Case & point: the plan to build an additional parallel runway at PHL (south of the current Runway 9R/27L) has been put on indefinite hold.  OTOH, the eastern extension of R/W 27L opened about two months ago.

I thought they already had two parallel runways for 9R/27L.  Current aerial views seem to show that (?).

[PHLBOS]

Case & point: the plan to build an additional parallel runway at PHL (south of the current Runway 9R/27L) has been put on indefinite hold.  OTOH, the eastern extension of R/W 27L opened about two months ago.

I thought they already had two parallel runways for 9R/27L.  Current aerial views seem to show that (?).

They do; the additional new one I'm referring to would be the third.  The existing two runways are situated too close together to do simultaneous take-offs.

[Beltway]

I thought they already had two parallel runways for 9R/27L.  Current aerial views seem to show that (?).

They do; the additional new one I'm referring to would be the third.  The existing two runways are situated too close together to do simultaneous take-offs.

How are they going to do that without filling in part of the river?  Aerial view makes it look like they did some of that when they built the second runway.

[PHLBOS]

I thought they already had two parallel runways for 9R/27L.  Current aerial views seem to show that (?).

They do; the additional new one I'm referring to would be the third.  The existing two runways are situated too close together to do simultaneous take-offs.

How are they going to do that without filling in part of the river?  Aerial view makes it look like they did some of that when they built the second runway.

That was exactly the plan.  See Pages 33 & 34 of this PowerPoint presentation.

[Tonytone]

Case & point: the plan to build an additional parallel runway at PHL (south of the current Runway 9R/27L) has been put on indefinite hold.  OTOH, the eastern extension of R/W 27L opened about two months ago.

I thought they already had two parallel runways for 9R/27L.  Current aerial views seem to show that (?).

They do; the additional new one I'm referring to would be the third.  The existing two runways are situated too close together to do simultaneous take-offs.

Did they build the runways too close by accident? Or was it a surveying error?


iPhone

[Beltway]

How are they going to do that without filling in part of the river?  Aerial view makes it look like they did some of that when they built the second runway.

That was exactly the plan.  See Pages 33 & 34 of this PowerPoint presentation.

Looks fairly minimal, less than 10 acres, and not causing any narrowing of the narrowest part of the river.

[seicer]

Case & point: the plan to build an additional parallel runway at PHL (south of the current Runway 9R/27L) has been put on indefinite hold.  OTOH, the eastern extension of R/W 27L opened about two months ago.

I thought they already had two parallel runways for 9R/27L.  Current aerial views seem to show that (?).

They do; the additional new one I'm referring to would be the third.  The existing two runways are situated too close together to do simultaneous take-offs.

Did they build the runways too close by accident? Or was it a surveying error?

Lack of land.

[Tonytone]

Case & point: the plan to build an additional parallel runway at PHL (south of the current Runway 9R/27L) has been put on indefinite hold.  OTOH, the eastern extension of R/W 27L opened about two months ago.

I thought they already had two parallel runways for 9R/27L.  Current aerial views seem to show that (?).

They do; the additional new one I'm referring to would be the third.  The existing two runways are situated too close together to do simultaneous take-offs.

Did they build the runways too close by accident? Or was it a surveying error?

Lack of land.

Well seems like that caused them to spend more money on relocating the Runways. But they are doing other upgrades so I guess its all good.


iPhone

[Beltway]

The existing two runways are situated too close together to do simultaneous take-offs.

Did they build the runways too close by accident? Or was it a surveying error?

Lack of land.

I am not an airport expert, but I believe that there would still be a considerably increase in capacity in while simultaneous takeoffs and landings are not possible, that the combined headways could still be considerably reduced, or perhaps one could be handing takeoffs while the other was handling landings.

[seicer]

Well, NextGen would take care of some of those issues, allowing for possible simultaneous (or far closer) takeoffs and landings.

[Tonytone]

Are they planning to extend the Southbound Blue-route 3 lane past exit 9? The work on the exit & filling of asphalt on the left shoulder makes me believe they are.


iPhone

[ixnay]

Case & point: the plan to build an additional parallel runway at PHL (south of the current Runway 9R/27L) has been put on indefinite hold.  OTOH, the eastern extension of R/W 27L opened about two months ago.

I thought they already had two parallel runways for 9R/27L.  Current aerial views seem to show that (?).

They do; the additional new one I'm referring to would be the third.  The existing two runways are situated too close together to do simultaneous take-offs.

Why?  Turbulence?

And how far apart must parallel runways be to permit simultaneous takeoffs?

ixnay

[Flyer78]

Are they planning to extend the Southbound Blue-route 3 lane past exit 9? The work on the exit & filling of asphalt on the left shoulder makes me believe they are.


iPhone

The eventual goal is shoulder-running lanes. I am not sure if the work they are doing now is related.

http://www2.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/penndots-fix-for-traffic-jams-on-the-blue-route-and-i-95-let-drivers-use-the-shoulders-20171013.html

[PHLBOS]

The existing two runways are situated too close together to do simultaneous take-offs.

Why?  Turbulence?
And how far apart must parallel runways be to permit simultaneous takeoffs?

Per the FAA Advisory Circular on Airport Design, Chapter 3, which covers Runway Design, Page 87

Simultaneous radar departures require a parallel runway centerline separation of at least 2,500 feet

PHL's current parallel major runways (one of them dates back to when the airport came into existence, the other was built in the 1970s) are only 1,400 feet apart per the earlier-posted PowerPoint presentation.

Are they planning to extend the Southbound Blue-route 3 lane past exit 9? The work on the exit & filling of asphalt on the left shoulder makes me believe they are.

The eventual goal is shoulder-running lanes. I am not sure if the work they are doing now is related.
http://www2.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/penndots-fix-for-traffic-jams-on-the-blue-route-and-i-95-let-drivers-use-the-shoulders-20171013.html

I'm not sure such was mentioned previously on this thread (thanks for steering the discussion back on topic, BTW) but I-476 south of PA 3 was indeed constructed with a future widening from the inside (narrowing of the median) in mind.  This approach would not require any additional land takings in the process.  Several of the I-476 mainline overpass abutments have extra space for such a widening. 

The use of the right shoulders as a travel lane per the above-link (something that's been done in the Greater Boston area for decades, many of which were eliminated when the highways were actually widened) would be viewed as an interim step towards a future widening.

[jeffandnicole]

Are they planning to extend the Southbound Blue-route 3 lane past exit 9? The work on the exit & filling of asphalt on the left shoulder makes me believe they are.


iPhone

Projects like widenings are planned years in advance (in the case of PA, decades).  They undergo extreme amounts of scrutiny.  They undergo extreme amounts of debate and protests.  There are public meeting held.  There is a massive amount of media exposure.  Heck, it would even be talked about on here extensively.  A widening wouldn't be done without anyone noticing. 

Here's Exit 9, PA 3: https://goo.gl/maps/L2k3rrHSVLs .  The left shoulder is 8 feet wide, with another foot or two clearance before you get to the bridge supports.  It's not wide enough to support a 3rd lane.  On the right side you have the gore area, then the bridge slope.  There would need to be extensive work done here to add a 3rd lane here. So nothing indicates a little extra asphalt would equate to a full widening.

It is a great idea to review the TIPs for PA and DE, as they provide a lot of insight into the projects in the region.  The DVRPC is a great starting point for TIPs for PA and NJ: https://www.dvrpc.org/TIP/ .  The site is a little clumsy, and sometimes you have to click twice on things to make it work, but all future projects are in there.  In the case of 476, there is a future project to use the shoulders for lanes and such, but that's a few years away at best: https://www.dvrpc.org/TIP/PA/expanded/104821 .  NJDOT's actual website provides a better way to review their TIP projects; not sure if PennDOT has something similar.

As for the current work going on that you mentioned - I can't find anything in regards to it at all.  It doesn't appear to be on the FY17 PA TIP, and Google searches aren't bringing up anything as well.

Now, are the TIPs perfect?  No.  Are there occasional surprise projects that pop up, or things that appear to happen without warning?  Yep.  But an extensive widening for 9 miles that will eventually be a well-over $100 million project wouldn't be one of them.  And unlike what most people believe, I-476 will need a lot of work to add a 3rd lane; a lot more than just an additional 12 feet of asphalt.  While much of the highway was built with a 3rd lane in mind, it's not completely ready.  Along with examples like the overpass above, this overpass https://goo.gl/maps/RtHNLwuZShk would need to be widened as well. 

[PHLBOS]

Along with examples like the overpass above, this overpass https://goo.gl/maps/RtHNLwuZShk would need to be widened as well.

As one who's walked the Leiper-Smedley Trail underneath that overpass many times; even those abutments (in the distance) were built with inner shelf space to accommodate future additional beams to carry the additional two lanes.  Granted, the GSV shots at this particular overpass don't give one a more up-close & personal view of such; but such are indeed there.

Long story short, the outer ends of those overpasses don't need to be modified for the additional inner lanes.

[Tonytone]

Well it would seem that they are trying to push the exit more to the right, to allow room for another lane probably up to the "Truck Lane" . I say this because the construction on Exit 9 is to the right. & if they move the exit more to the right, they can use the additional space for the 3rd lane to merge correctly with the onramp. Aswell the bridge has room for the 3rd lane & the cars to merge. When you get caught in the BlueRoutes Parking lot during rush hour, You start to see that the 3rd lane implementation is not gonna be that hard. Noting the fact that 75% of the blue route, has sections where its ready for the 3rd lane. Such as the part you showed, @P. So we may see a start. Did I just see that article said I-95 as well. Right before the 322 exit merge nightmare. The gantry before that has extra room on the left for an additional lane, It probably wont be done for years, but thats something worth noting. Also the Southbound side of 95 has been paved up to the Delaware stateline & looks like they will be fixing their half of the side.


iPhone

[jeffandnicole]

Well it would seem that they are trying to push the exit more to the right, to allow room for another lane probably up to the “Truck Lane”. I say this because the construction on Exit 9 is to the right. & if they move the exit more to the right, they can use the additional space for the 3rd lane to merge correctly with the onramp. Aswell the bridge has room for the 3rd lane & the cars to merge. When you get caught in the BlueRoutes Parking lot during rush hour, You start to see that the 3rd lane implementation is not gonna be that hard. Noting the fact that 75% of the blue route, has sections where its ready for the 3rd lane. Such as the part you showed, @P. So we may see a start. Did I just see that article said I-95 as well. Right before the 322 exit merge nightmare. The gantry before that has extra room on the left for an additional lane, It probably wont be done for years, but thats something worth noting. Also the Southbound side of 95 has been paved up to the Delaware stateline & looks like they will be fixing their half of the side.


iPhone

You clearly ignored everything I said about TIPs and funding.

Maybe you're right, but I've yet to find a single hint that they are changing the exit configuration.

[Tonytone]

Well it would seem that they are trying to push the exit more to the right, to allow room for another lane probably up to the “Truck Lane”. I say this because the construction on Exit 9 is to the right. & if they move the exit more to the right, they can use the additional space for the 3rd lane to merge correctly with the onramp. Aswell the bridge has room for the 3rd lane & the cars to merge. When you get caught in the BlueRoutes Parking lot during rush hour, You start to see that the 3rd lane implementation is not gonna be that hard. Noting the fact that 75% of the blue route, has sections where its ready for the 3rd lane. Such as the part you showed, @P. So we may see a start. Did I just see that article said I-95 as well. Right before the 322 exit merge nightmare. The gantry before that has extra room on the left for an additional lane, It probably wont be done for years, but thats something worth noting. Also the Southbound side of 95 has been paved up to the Delaware stateline & looks like they will be fixing their half of the side.


iPhone

You clearly ignored everything I said about TIPs and funding.

Maybe you're right, but I've yet to find a single hint that they are changing the exit configuration.

Sorry jeff I was getting to that to. PA puts these websites up with these crazy ass dates. Whats the point? How can a big place like Pa argue about getting roads done. But NJ even bigger, has phenomenal roads & delaware smaller then both of the states, is 2nd running with the good roads. Seems like more corruption then working happening.
Or maybe Pa wants to go back to dirt roads.

&Thank you for those links as well J&N.


iPhone

[jeffandnicole]

Well it would seem that they are trying to push the exit more to the right, to allow room for another lane probably up to the “Truck Lane”. I say this because the construction on Exit 9 is to the right. & if they move the exit more to the right, they can use the additional space for the 3rd lane to merge correctly with the onramp. Aswell the bridge has room for the 3rd lane & the cars to merge. When you get caught in the BlueRoutes Parking lot during rush hour, You start to see that the 3rd lane implementation is not gonna be that hard. Noting the fact that 75% of the blue route, has sections where its ready for the 3rd lane. Such as the part you showed, @P. So we may see a start. Did I just see that article said I-95 as well. Right before the 322 exit merge nightmare. The gantry before that has extra room on the left for an additional lane, It probably wont be done for years, but thats something worth noting. Also the Southbound side of 95 has been paved up to the Delaware stateline & looks like they will be fixing their half of the side.


iPhone

You clearly ignored everything I said about TIPs and funding.

Maybe you're right, but I've yet to find a single hint that they are changing the exit configuration.

Sorry jeff I was getting to that to. PA puts these websites up with these crazy ass dates. Whats the point? How can a big place like Pa argue about getting roads done. But NJ even bigger, has phenomenal roads & delaware smaller then both of the states, is 2nd running with the good roads. Seems like more corruption then working happening.
Or maybe Pa wants to go back to dirt roads.

&Thank you for those links as well J&N.


iPhone

I think that Delaware's roads are far superior to NJ's roads.  PA's interstates have gotten a lot better, but every other non-freeway road appears to be potholed to death.

All states have projections for their expected funding.  The recently story of 95's viaduct being reconstructed in Delaware is 2 years away, and they have projections for several years beyond that.  Plans change, funding changes, priorities change, etc, so often times something planned for several years out is pushed back, but at least it's a start.

I usually count on any project to be delayed at least a year or two from when I first see it appear in a NJDOT TIP.  Sometimes there's surprises and a project is pushed up, or a new project suddenly appears ready to go this year.  One notable case is NJ 73 and Fellowship Road in Mt. Laurel.  There's a intersection improvement project on the TIP that should be engineered, designed, and constructed within the next 5 years.  However, that project already happened during the past year!  A new Walmart is being built nearby, and all the planned modifications occurred when they were building it.  This was never a project NJDOT put out to bid, so I can only guess they managed to get Walmart to pay for most of it.  And yet, it still appears on the TIP!

[jemacedo9]

From PennDOT Press Releases:

Motorists will encounter single lane closures in both directions on Route 3 (West Chester Pike) between the Interstate 476 Interchange and New Ardmore Avenue in Marple Township, Delaware County, on Monday, October 22, through Friday, October 26, from 9:00 AM to 3:00 PM, for excavation, the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation (PennDOT) announced today.

Motorists are advised to allow extra time when traveling through the work area. The schedule is weather dependent.

The excavation is part of a $3.9 million project by Marple Associates, LP to improve the I-476/Route 3 (West Chester Pike) Interchange. Marple Associates, LP will complete this project under a PennDOT Highway Occupancy Permit.

It looks like some ramp widening, intersection widening (and I'm guessing PA 3 short-distance widening) from the few times I've driven down I-476 in the last couple of months.  Nothing occurring directly on I-476 beyond anything specifically related to the ramps.

[Tonytone]

I-95's new asphalt is already losing its black color. If this isnt an indications of how badly it needs 4-5 lanes then I dont know what will.


iPhone

[Tonytone]

Well it would seem that they are trying to push the exit more to the right, to allow room for another lane probably up to the “Truck Lane”. I say this because the construction on Exit 9 is to the right. & if they move the exit more to the right, they can use the additional space for the 3rd lane to merge correctly with the onramp. Aswell the bridge has room for the 3rd lane & the cars to merge. When you get caught in the BlueRoutes Parking lot during rush hour, You start to see that the 3rd lane implementation is not gonna be that hard. Noting the fact that 75% of the blue route, has sections where its ready for the 3rd lane. Such as the part you showed, @P. So we may see a start. Did I just see that article said I-95 as well. Right before the 322 exit merge nightmare. The gantry before that has extra room on the left for an additional lane, It probably wont be done for years, but thats something worth noting. Also the Southbound side of 95 has been paved up to the Delaware stateline & looks like they will be fixing their half of the side.


iPhone

You clearly ignored everything I said about TIPs and funding.

Maybe you're right, but I've yet to find a single hint that they are changing the exit configuration.

Sorry jeff I was getting to that to. PA puts these websites up with these crazy ass dates. Whats the point? How can a big place like Pa argue about getting roads done. But NJ even bigger, has phenomenal roads & delaware smaller then both of the states, is 2nd running with the good roads. Seems like more corruption then working happening.
Or maybe Pa wants to go back to dirt roads.

&Thank you for those links as well J&N.


iPhone

I think that Delaware's roads are far superior to NJ's roads.  PA's interstates have gotten a lot better, but every other non-freeway road appears to be potholed to death.

All states have projections for their expected funding.  The recently story of 95's viaduct being reconstructed in Delaware is 2 years away, and they have projections for several years beyond that.  Plans change, funding changes, priorities change, etc, so often times something planned for several years out is pushed back, but at least it's a start.

I usually count on any project to be delayed at least a year or two from when I first see it appear in a NJDOT TIP.  Sometimes there's surprises and a project is pushed up, or a new project suddenly appears ready to go this year.  One notable case is NJ 73 and Fellowship Road in Mt. Laurel.  There's a intersection improvement project on the TIP that should be engineered, designed, and constructed within the next 5 years.  However, that project already happened during the past year!  A new Walmart is being built nearby, and all the planned modifications occurred when they were building it.  This was never a project NJDOT put out to bid, so I can only guess they managed to get Walmart to pay for most of it.  And yet, it still appears on the TIP!

I was gonna mention, that I seen on Delaware's Gov front page, that Delaware is #1 is roads in the U.S. I dont know if thats still true today. But thats a very interesting fact. Delawares roads are good. Maybe Nj just beats DE in Highways. Businesses can pay for a road to be built? Wow Walmart does have that money. But I believe roads just be funded on depending on how bad it inflicts daily life.


iPhone

[seicer]

I-95's new asphalt is already losing its black color. If this isnt an indications of how badly it needs 4-5 lanes then I dont know what will.

Two factors:

1. Roadway surfaces can fade for a variety of reasons, mostly due to ultraviolet light exposure.
2. The binder, bitumen, can wear away because of heavy traffic loads, weather, and ultraviolet light breaking down the chemical composition. The stone aggregate, usually lighter in color, can become exposed.

Both are not indicators that a roadway need repaving.