Charlotte interstates

[silverback1065]

I've been wondering about this for a while, what were Charlotte's originally planned interstates?  Looking at the map i find it hard to believe those were all the ones that were planned.  what was cancelled?  does anyone have any maps? or links to the history behind the routes?

[hotdogPi]

Keep in mind that Charlotte's current population is 4× what it was in the 1960s.

[silverback1065]

are there any new ones planned?  I've never been there so I have no knowledge of the area.  (This is my first post in this part of the board)

[Mapmikey]

I've been wondering about this for a while, what were Charlotte's originally planned interstates?  Looking at the map i find it hard to believe those were all the ones that were planned.  what was cancelled?  does anyone have any maps? or links to the history behind the routes?

North Carolina didn't request any urban interstates until 1970.

There has been occasional chatter about a second loop encompassing 10 counties in NC-SC (starting before any of I-485 was built) but that has not cropped up lately AFAIK

[froggie]

Some individual route background can be found on the VHP NC Annex.

In short, nothing new planned...though many roadgeeks suspect NCDOT will request Interstate designation for US 74 eventually.  Until 1963, the only Interstate that was proposed or built in the Charlotte area was I-85.  I-77 came later, and I-277 didn't come about until the late '70s/early '80s.  I-485 was a late '80s endeavor.

[Henry]

As I recall, I-77 was originally planned to end at I-85, but eventually got extended through town and on to Columbia, SC. The I-277 and I-485 loops were the only 3di's that were ever planned, and nothing was cancelled that I know of.

[Beltway]

North Carolina didn't request any urban interstates until 1970.

What about I-277 and I-240?

I see no entry for North Carolina urban areas in the "Yellow Book" (General Location of National System of Interstate Highways Including All Additional Routes at Urban Areas Designated in September 1955).

http://www.ajfroggie.com/roads/yellowbook/

As I recall, I-77 was originally planned to end at I-85, but eventually got extended through town and on to Columbia, SC.

That extension was one of the 1968 additions to the Interstate system, when 1,500 miles was added nationwide.

[silverback1065]

interesting, i assumed that there were supposed to be interstates going through town from all relevant directions.  I guess they have it mostly covered, except with US 74 and SR 27 not being interstates into town.  How is traffic?  I may make a visit next year, trying to learn about the roadway network. 

why weren't any urban interstates planned until so late?  I see why they are playing catch up with all the new highways they're building now.  Was it because they didn't think population would be as high as it is now in their major cities?

[froggie]

North Carolina didn't request any urban interstates until 1970.

What about I-277 and I-240?

That's what Mike was getting at...NC didn't request I-240 until FHWA opened the additional 1968 Act mileage (i.e. the Howard-Cramer mileage) to requests in 1970.  It is unclear from existing data/websites whether I-277 was also requested as part of the Howard-Cramer mileage, but FHWA's Interstate route log notes that neither route received any Howard-Cramer mileage and instead both routes are partially non-chargable Interstate mileage.

I see no entry for North Carolina urban areas in the "Yellow Book" (General Location of National System of Interstate Highways Including All Additional Routes at Urban Areas Designated in September 1955).

http://www.ajfroggie.com/roads/yellowbook/

No 3-digit routes were proposed in North Carolina at the time.

As I recall, I-77 was originally planned to end at I-85, but eventually got extended through town and on to Columbia, SC.

That extension was one of the 1968 additions to the Interstate system, when 1,500 miles was added nationwide.

According to the above-mentioned FHWA Interstate Route log, this mileage was not Howard-Cramer mileage but instead may be non-chargable Interstate mileage.  Mapmikey notes on the NC Annex that the physical highway extension south of downtown Charlotte to the SC line was already funded and under construction when NC requested it be added as part of I-77 in 1968.

[Beltway]

That extension was one of the 1968 additions to the Interstate system, when 1,500 miles was added nationwide.

According to the above-mentioned FHWA Interstate Route log, this mileage was not Howard-Cramer mileage but instead may be non-chargable Interstate mileage.  Mapmikey notes on the NC Annex that the physical highway extension south of downtown Charlotte to the SC line was already funded and under construction when NC requested it be added as part of I-77 in 1968.

The segment south of downtown Charlotte to the SC line was a fairly short 12 miles in a metropolitan area, and I could see where that could have been funded as a primary highway (50-50 federal-state was the best available back then).

SC I-77 would have been a much more expensive project with almost 100 miles of route.  That would have been a very expensive project for the state to build to Interstate standards but not funded as a 90% federally funded Interstate project.  It was also built quickly, at least down to I-20.

Some Interstate segments were added in the 1970s under one-time requests for a federally funded Interstate project, such as the southern extension of VA I-295 and the I-264 segment between Portsmouth and downtown Norfolk.  They got 90% federal funding.  Maybe SC I-77 was in this category.

[Mapmikey]

That's what Mike was getting at...NC didn't request I-240 until FHWA opened the additional 1968 Act mileage (i.e. the Howard-Cramer mileage) to requests in 1970.  It is unclear from existing data/websites whether I-277 was also requested as part of the Howard-Cramer mileage, but FHWA's Interstate route log notes that neither route received any Howard-Cramer mileage and instead both routes are partially non-chargable Interstate mileage.

If you look closely at Charlotte on this map showing the requests you can see a circle indicating urban mileage was requested:
http://www.ajfroggie.com/roads/yellowbook/additions-1970.jpg

There is also these maps that show NC Interstates in 1959 and 1962...no 3dis there (click for larger version).




I have a SC Highway History book at home that may answer the question of how I-77 was funded south of Rock Hill...will check this evening.

[jcarte29]

interesting, i assumed that there were supposed to be interstates going through town from all relevant directions.  I guess they have it mostly covered, except with US 74 and SR 27 not being interstates into town.  How is traffic?  I may make a visit next year, trying to learn about the roadway network. 

why weren't any urban interstates planned until so late?  I see why they are playing catch up with all the new highways they're building now.  Was it because they didn't think population would be as high as it is now in their major cities?

There's some great information here, and now as a resident of the Queen City I enjoy catching up on the road history in this great city. Growing up in W-S I was always "jealous" that Charlotte had two direct "Blue/Red" routes in, 85 and 77, and didn't go crazy with Green Routes (IMHO If Charlotte were like Greensboro I-85 would be the NW circle of I-485 and 85 through town would be Green, but glad it's not lol)

[froggie]

If you look closely at Charlotte on this map showing the requests you can see a circle indicating urban mileage was requested:
http://www.ajfroggie.com/roads/yellowbook/additions-1970.jpg

According to Kurumi's text listing of the 1970 requests, the Charlotte request was for an outer beltway loop (what became I-485) and a radial spur to that loop.  I don't think I-277 fit that description.  NC wound up funding I-485 themselves and adding it as non-chargable Interstate.

[wriddle082]

I have a couple of other questions about Charlotte's interstates:

* So I-77 originally ended at I-85, and was extended south from there.  Was the one-of-a-kind double-crossover 77/85 clusterf*ck interchange originally designed to have this southern extension?  And what was the rationale for building such a convoluted interchange with so many unnecessary bridges?  And for that matter, why does NCDOT insist on slapping band-aids on it instead of trying to turn it into a nice respectable symmetrical stack or turbine?  Makes me sick every time I merge onto 77 south in the left lane.

* I realize why the southern 77/277 junction is the way it is, since originally this wasn't a junction b/w two interstates, but why was the northern 77/277 junction built the way it was?  Both left merges (from 277 north to 77 south, and from 77 south to 277 south) are both extremely annoying.  And the interchange is pretty ugly overall, looking like some of Connecticut's finest work, and the addition of HOT lane connector ramps does not seem to be improving the looks one bit.

* So my understanding is that 77 from 85 south to (I think) Nations Ford Rd was originally built as a new bypass alignment for US 21 (hence the multiplex through much of the city).  I guess this explains why the ROW of this stretch is generally very narrow?  Might be because the neighborhoods were already in place at the time and they used only as much ROW as they needed at the time.  They currently don't have any room to add additional lanes south of Uptown in the current ROW, which is why I think they're considering new elevated HOT lanes above the median, similar to what CA has done in the LA area.

[Mapmikey]

I have a couple of other questions about Charlotte's interstates:

* So I-77 originally ended at I-85, and was extended south from there.  Was the one-of-a-kind double-crossover 77/85 clusterf*ck interchange originally designed to have this southern extension?  And what was the rationale for building such a convoluted interchange with so many unnecessary bridges?  And for that matter, why does NCDOT insist on slapping band-aids on it instead of trying to turn it into a nice respectable symmetrical stack or turbine?  Makes me sick every time I merge onto 77 south in the left lane.

Historic aerials show this interchange built this way.  My guess is that there was not enough room to put a clover leaf (I-85 NB to I-77 NB) in the traditional location and have a ramp from 77 NB to 85 NB that didn't interfere with the adjacent I-85 interchange with Statesville Rd.  I'm guessing had this happened today they would've rebuilt that interchange to accomodate.

* I realize why the southern 77/277 junction is the way it is, since originally this wasn't a junction b/w two interstates, but why was the northern 77/277 junction built the way it was?  Both left merges (from 277 north to 77 south, and from 77 south to 277 south) are both extremely annoying.  And the interchange is pretty ugly overall, looking like some of Connecticut's finest work, and the addition of HOT lane connector ramps does not seem to be improving the looks one bit.

Comparing 1965 images to the 1971 images seems to show that far fewer houses were taken by doing it this way - neighborhood to the NW was already there and another one to the SE was partially taken away.  The NW one looks more modern and the SE one looked like row houses - the 1978 image shows the SE neighborhood demolished entirely.

* So my understanding is that 77 from 85 south to (I think) Nations Ford Rd was originally built as a new bypass alignment for US 21 (hence the multiplex through much of the city).  I guess this explains why the ROW of this stretch is generally very narrow?  Might be because the neighborhoods were already in place at the time and they used only as much ROW as they needed at the time.  They currently don't have any room to add additional lanes south of Uptown in the current ROW, which is why I think they're considering new elevated HOT lanes above the median, similar to what CA has done in the LA area.

US 21 bypass was built down to state line.  I have a picture of that at home...

[ATLRedSoxFan]

Interesting to note, before Charlotte's urban growth, I-85 actually just bypassed Charlotte to the North. Way different today. Also wonder why with I-77's Southward continuation, it never actually entered Columbia, just kinda curled around it.

[Mapmikey]

US 21 bypass was built down to state line.  I have a picture of that at home...

Here it is, from the 1966 NCDOT Annual Report.  The end of the freeway shown is the state line.



The SC Highway History book did not get into how I-77 was financed.

[index]

I've been wondering about this for a while, what were Charlotte's originally planned interstates?  Looking at the map i find it hard to believe those were all the ones that were planned.  what was cancelled?  does anyone have any maps? or links to the history behind the routes?

North Carolina didn't request any urban interstates until 1970.

There has been occasional chatter about a second loop encompassing 10 counties in NC-SC (starting before any of I-485 was built) but that has not cropped up lately AFAIK

Is there any sort of documentation on that or anything? I'm interested.

[Beltway]

Also wonder why with I-77's Southward continuation, it never actually entered Columbia, just kinda curled around it.

SC-277 does connect I-77 to the downtown and perhaps could be I-277 given that it seems to be at or near urban Interstate standards.

[Mapmikey]

I've been wondering about this for a while, what were Charlotte's originally planned interstates?  Looking at the map i find it hard to believe those were all the ones that were planned.  what was cancelled?  does anyone have any maps? or links to the history behind the routes?

North Carolina didn't request any urban interstates until 1970.

There has been occasional chatter about a second loop encompassing 10 counties in NC-SC (starting before any of I-485 was built) but that has not cropped up lately AFAIK

Is there any sort of documentation on that or anything? I'm interested.

Here is something I found after a quick search...

[Mapmikey]

Also wonder why with I-77's Southward continuation, it never actually entered Columbia, just kinda curled around it.

SC-277 does connect I-77 to the downtown and perhaps could be I-277 given that it seems to be at or near urban Interstate standards.

A longtime Columbia resident sent me this 10 years ago:

I don't know if you're familiar with the 1966 COATS (Columbia Area Transportation Survey) study that was conducted and proposed a lot of what Richland County and the state attempted to build since.  Some of those recommendations have been adhered to.  Some have not.  The roads that came into existance by that plan include SC12, SC277, SC768, SC35 (somewhat), and I-77 (somewhat) as well as some street widenings and extentions.  277 was proposed in pretty much its current location with one exception.  It was supposed to end around Rosewood Drive, which was shown as being extended as an expressway to I-26 from approximately where the dock is on the Congaree.  To do this, it was proposed to go through Cottonwood (the area just above Elmwood Avenue) and to that end, land was cleared west of Main Street in the mid to late 70s for the "extention" of 277 around to I-126 at the Elmwood Avenue exit.  This would also have required numerous graves to be relocated in four cemetaries.  The railroad track was even moved to its current location in anticipation of 277, but Cottonwood wouldn't go along with it.  You might notice that the Bull Street end of 277 is built as if another road were to come in from the west just before you cross Sunset Boulevard.  The dirt is already piled up there to continue 277, but it will likely never happen.  It was opened that way in anticipation of more of 277.  The south end of 277 was proposed to take the Williams Street/Gist Street corridor along the river.  77 was originally proposed to end at 20, but the COATS plan placed a freeway across the southern side of town, but not in the location of what is now 77.  It was planned to parallel Rosewood Drive/Belt Line Blvd. somewhat and cross the Congaree just below the quarries on either side of the river.