With discussion of Kansas City freeway loop possibly decommissioning the northern leg, I wonder for which cities central business districts (CBD) are completely surrounded by freeways that are close-in.
I can think of the following:
Portland, OR
Los Angeles
Fresno
Phoenix
Kansas City
Tulsa
San Antonio
Dallas
Houston
Columbus, OH
Charlotte
Nashville
Rochester, NY (before they began tearing down parts of the inner loop)
Are there any others?
Quote from: mrsman on March 11, 2018, 10:42:39 AM
With discussion of Kansas City freeway loop possibly decommissioning the northern leg, I wonder for which cities central business districts (CBD) are completely surrounded by freeways that are close-in.
I can think of the following:
Portland, OR
Los Angeles
Fresno
Phoenix
Kansas City
Tulsa
San Antonio
Dallas
Houston
Columbus, OH
Charlotte
Nashville
Rochester, NY (before they began tearing down parts of the inner loop)
Are there any others?
Sacramento on 3 and a half sides: I-5 to the west, US-50 to the south, and CASR-51 to the east. I-80 completes the north side but it runs well north (like 3 km) of the CBD (which is a perfect grid except of a few parks and monuments and such).
Technically, Philly does with 76, 95, and 676.
Downtown Detroit has freeways on three sides and a river on the side that doesn't have a freeway.
Ann Arbor, Michigan is completely enclosed by freeways but no freeways are downtown. M-14, US-23 and I-94 all enclose Ann Arbor.
San Jose kinda is set up that way (280 on south side, 87 to the west, 101 a bit to the east) with 880 on the northwest side of this, though 880 and 87 do not have any connecting ramps to each other.
Fresno (99, 180, 41)
Phoenix maybe? (10 and 17)
Portland, Oregon with 405 and 5
Omaha (480, 29, 80)
Youngstown, OH definitely has a freeway loop, though whether it is "close in" enough to count could be questioned.
Pittsburgh just misses, with I-579 coming a few blocks shy of reaching I-376
Technically, Anaheim (5/57/91) has a "loop" (actually a triangle) around its CBD -- although the city extends E & W 9 or so miles in either direction from the center. Likewise, Irvine has a loop (5/55/405/133) as well -- but since it really doesn't have a "downtown" as such, that may not be relevant. Curiously, the "Irvine Center" shopping district just east of the loop cited above has it's own "mini-loop" consisting of I-5, I-405, and CA 133 -- although one can't circumnavigate that routing as there's no direct access from SB I-5 to NB I-405 and vice-versa. More of an "enclosure" than a real loop!
Quote from: mrsman on March 11, 2018, 10:42:39 AM
Are there any others?
Richmond, VA. I-95, I-195, VA-195. While the western leg is well outside of the downtown, these freeways do form a loop around the heart of the city, and have south, east and north legs that are in the downtown (CBD) area.
East St Louis, IL/Riverfront St Louis, MO
Can't drive around the loop, due to missing ramps, but I-70, I-55, I-64, and I-44 form one
The actual City of St Louis Freeway Loop involves a canceled, missing Freeway (I-755)
Indy is missing its Downtown Loop because the West St Freeway was canceled
Quote from: ilpt4u on March 11, 2018, 04:00:38 PM
East St Louis, IL/Riverfront St Louis, MO
Does not qualify, since neither downtown St. Louis or downtown East St. Louis are not contained by the loop.
If I-484 had been built as planned, Hartford would have had one with I-84, I-91, and I-484.
Boston would have also had one with the I-695 Inner Belt and I-93.
Providence does with I-95 and RI 10 (both partially paired with US 6).
If the gap in A-440 were closed, Quebec City would with A-40, A-440, and A-740.
Fresno with CA 41, 99, and 180.
Unconstructed ones in california:
an "East Bypass" was proposed in downtown LA in the mid-1960s (Route 241 at one point) that would have connected today's 110 between the Santa Monica Freeway/I-10 and the Golden State Freeway/I-5. It was pre-1964 LRN 222 as seen on this map
https://www.cahighways.org/maps/1963routes.jpg
Had the Central and Embarcadero Freeways been fully finished in SF, they would have formed two legs of a loop encircling downtown, with the southeast leg being today's Skyway (I-80).
Knoxville, TN's downtown is boxed on three sides by I-40, US-129 and the James White Parkway. TN-158 splits off the Parkway and runs along the north side of the Tennessee River...there were some plans to convert it to full freeway but those never came to pass. Had they gone through with it, Knoxville would be fully boxed in.
Unconstructed ones would obviously include the Inner Loop Freeway in Washington, D.C. Segments of I-95, I-66, I-295 and I-695. Actually a double loop in a rough figure-8. Several portions were built on the west, south and center legs, but not enough to form any loop.
465 in Indianapolis
And also, if West Street did become the freeway it was supposed to be (let’s say I-270), I-65, I-70, and I-270 would have encircled Downtown.
Cincinnati would certainly qualify, even though OH 562 is a bit further north of downtown.
San Diego also has lots of these in different locations: I-5/CA 15/CA 94; I-5/I-8/CA 163; and I-5/CA 163/I-8/I-805/CA 15/CA 94, to name a few.
Had I-485 and I-675 (nee I-475) been built out, Atlanta would've had one with I-20 and I-75/I-85 completing the loop.
Manchester, NH via Is-93 and 293.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on March 12, 2018, 12:09:11 AM
If the gap in A-440 were closed, Quebec City would with A-40, A-440, and A-740.
I wouldn't count A-440/A-40/A-740 any more than I would count I-190/I-290/I-90 for Buffalo. Although Buffalo has another unbuilt example with I-190 and the Kensington spurs.
Quote from: Henry on March 12, 2018, 09:29:18 AM
San Diego also has lots of these in different locations: I-5/CA 15/CA 94; I-5/I-8/CA 163; and I-5/CA 163/I-8/I-805/CA 15/CA 94, to name a few.
I wanted to mention San Diego but I don't know if it counts - downtown is all south and west of I-5 (originally US 101) and I'm not sure any freeway was ever planned within that perimeter.
Is there a criteria for how close to downtown it has to be?
This could determine whether, for example, I-90/I-190/I-290 can count for Buffalo. It does circle downtown, but a lot of other attractions/neighborhoods/etc. are inside the loop in addition to the CBD.
If simply circling downtown regardless of distance was enough, every beltway in existence would count. So would I-10/I-5/I-90/I-95 for almost every US city.
Quote from: vdeane on March 12, 2018, 01:40:26 PM
If simply circling downtown regardless of distance was enough, every beltway in existence would count. So would I-10/I-5/I-90/I-95 for almost every US city.
Surprisingly, not as many of the major ones as you'd think, if you consider the city center(s) relative to the quadrangle you mentioned:
NYC - No (just)
LA - No (just)
Chicago - No (just)
Washington/Baltimore - Yes
Bay Area - No
Boston - No
DFW - Yes
Philly - Yes
Miami - No
Houston - No (just)
Atlanta - Yes
Detroit - No
Seattle - No (just)
Phoenix - No (just)
Minneapolis - No
Cleveland - No (just)
Denver - Yes
San Diego - No (just)
Portland - No (just)
Orlando - No
Only five of the top 20 PSAs have city centers within the quadrangle, while nine are just outside of it.
Well, I wasn't restricting it to major ones, and it was intended more as "let's see how absurd of an example I can think of to make a point" than to be taken seriously. Plus coastal cities can be impossible depending on how strict you want to be. That said, by making the loop more complicated, we can add more:
-From I-10, I-75, I-275, I-75, I-595, I-95, FL 9B, I-295
-I-295 (Richmond)
-I-295, New Jersey Turnpike
-I-278
-I-195, MA 24, I-93, I-91 to I-90*
-I-290, I-190, ON 405, QEW, Gardiner Expy, Don Valley Pkwy, ON 401, ON 402, I-69, I-96, I-196, I-94
-I-94, I-43, I-41, I-94
-I-94, I-694, I-94
-I-405 (Portland)
-I-505, I-80, US 101, I-280, I-680, I-580
-I-405 (LA)
-I-8
-I-410 (San Antonio)
-I-610 (Houston)
-I-210 (Lake Charles)
*I wanted to go into Québec, but alas every freeway border crossing east of Niagara Falls has at least one at-grade intersection (even if A-85 were finished, the at-grade on NB 95 would prevent going that way)
Quote from: vdeane on March 12, 2018, 07:49:16 PM
Well, I wasn't restricting it to major ones, and it was intended more as "let's see how absurd of an example I can think of to make a point" than to be taken seriously.
Who was the intended recipient of your point?
My post is directly above yours - I was not inferring that we should start coming up with exotic loops that leave the metro area. I was looking for a more specific criteria from the OP - maybe a maximum length? or perhaps it can't leave the city limits? "Downtown" is specified, and there's a few interpretations of that. Anything larger (in terms of inside area) than a beltway is clearly not among those interpretations.
If we are going to start listing unconstructed ones:
* St. Louis with two versions - US 40, I-70, and MO 755, and a different version where an expressway along Cole Street/Page Avenue corridor (starting at I-70 in earlier plans) would have formed the northern boundary
* Chicago with I-55, I-90/I-94, and the Ohio Feeder/Lake Shore Drive version of I-494
* Wichita, KS? With US 54/US 400, I-135, and the unbuilt Inner Loop
* Louisville, KY? With I-64, I-65, the unbuilt Southwest Radial (9th Street), and the unbuilt Crosstown route (partial loop inside I-264).
* Minneapolis with I-94, I-35W, and the unbuilt I-335
* Milwaukee with I-43, I-794, the partially removed/partially not built Park East, and the unbuilt leg along the Lakefront
* New Orleans? With I-10, Business 90, and the unbuilt I-310 along the river
*Atlanta? With I-20, I-75/I-85, an unbuilt western extension of the GA 10/I-485 corridor, and an unbuilt route from the northern I-75/I-85 interchange to I-85 near the airport
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 12, 2018, 10:07:33 PM
If we are going to start listing unconstructed ones:
* St. Louis with two versions - US 40, I-70, and MO 755, and a different version where an expressway along Cole Street/Page Avenue corridor (starting at I-70 in earlier plans) would have formed the northern boundary
* Chicago with I-55, I-90/I-94, and the Ohio Feeder/Lake Shore Drive version of I-494
* Wichita, KS? With US 54/US 400, I-135, and the unbuilt Inner Loop
* Louisville, KY? With I-64, I-65, the unbuilt Southwest Radial (9th Street), and the unbuilt Crosstown route (partial loop inside I-264).
* Minneapolis with I-94, I-35W, and the unbuilt I-335
* Milwaukee with I-43, I-794, the partially removed/partially not built Park East, and the unbuilt leg along the Lakefront
* New Orleans? With I-10, Business 90, and the unbuilt I-310 along the river
*Atlanta? With I-20, I-75/I-85, an unbuilt western extension of the GA 10/I-485 corridor, and an unbuilt route from the northern I-75/I-85 interchange to I-85 near the airport
Chicago doesn't have any freeway loop downtown. The Ohio feeder turns into surface streets well before the lake (Ontario and Ohio Streets), I-55 is too far south to be part of any downtown loop, and Lakeshore Drive barely resembles a freeway.
New Haven had one planned in the 1960s: http://www.kurumi.com/roads/ct/ringroad.html
Quote from: vdeane on March 12, 2018, 07:49:16 PM
Well, I wasn't restricting it to major ones, and it was intended more as "let's see how absurd of an example I can think of to make a point" than to be taken seriously. Plus coastal cities can be impossible depending on how strict you want to be. That said, by making the loop more complicated, we can add more:
-From I-10, I-75, I-275, I-75, I-595, I-95, FL 9B, I-295
-I-295 (Richmond)
-I-295, New Jersey Turnpike
-I-278
-I-195, MA 24, I-93, I-91 to I-90*
-I-290, I-190, ON 405, QEW, Gardiner Expy, Don Valley Pkwy, ON 401, ON 402, I-69, I-96, I-196, I-94
-I-94, I-43, I-41, I-94
-I-94, I-694, I-94
-I-405 (Portland)
-I-505, I-80, US 101, I-280, I-680, I-580
-I-405 (LA)
-I-8
-I-410 (San Antonio)
-I-610 (Houston)
-I-210 (Lake Charles)
*I wanted to go into Québec, but alas every freeway border crossing east of Niagara Falls has at least one at-grade intersection (even if A-85 were finished, the at-grade on NB 95 would prevent going that way)
Wasn't intending to contradict your major point, more that it highlights how intensive coastal urban development is relative to the hinterland.
Definitely true. Some cities aren't even possible to get in any loop for that reason (notably Miami, San Diego, and San Francisco). Making a more complicated "loop" to net as many as possible was certainly a fun exercise, though.
Quote from: Interstate 69 Fan on March 12, 2018, 09:28:37 AM
465 in Indianapolis
And also, if West Street did become the freeway it was supposed to be (let's say I-270), I-65, I-70, and I-270 would have encircled Downtown.
Actually, it was SUPPOSED to be part of an extended I-69 which would've joined the "Inner Loop" from the proposed Northeast Freeway at the present-day North Split of I-65 & I-70 - which is why grade separations exist there for "ghost ramps" (these are about to be removed, nearly 40 years later). From that point there would have been a "wrong way pairing" of SB I-69 on NB I-65 (and visa versa) to the present day Martin Luther King, Jr. Blvd exit at the NW corner of the loop, where I-69 would have departed to the south toward I-70 along the MLK/West Street corridor. From there, I-69 would've either gone straight across, or joined I-70 briefly until the Harding Street exit, where it would have departed to the south at least as far as I-465. But both the I-69 (later proposed I-165) Northeast Freeway and the Harding (Street) Freeway were canceled so INDOT could focus on completing I-65 & I-70 through the city, and because of political concerns (a "freeway revolt") over further dividing established inner-city neighborhoods. That left the now soon-to-be gone ghost ramps & grade separations as the only physical evidence of this failed proposal.
Quote from: roadguy2 on April 28, 2018, 08:17:09 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 13, 2018, 12:52:50 PM
Definitely true. Some cities aren't even possible to get in any loop for that reason (notably Miami, San Diego, and San Francisco). Making a more complicated "loop" to net as many as possible was certainly a fun exercise, though.
That's also true for cities with downtowns that are right up next to mountains, like Salt Lake City and Boise.
The post you're replying to was referring to a satirical "loop" of transcontinental interstates around as many cities as possible in the entire country.
Quote from: vdeane on April 28, 2018, 09:46:46 PM
Quote from: roadguy2 on April 28, 2018, 08:17:09 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 13, 2018, 12:52:50 PM
Definitely true. Some cities aren't even possible to get in any loop for that reason (notably Miami, San Diego, and San Francisco). Making a more complicated "loop" to net as many as possible was certainly a fun exercise, though.
That's also true for cities with downtowns that are right up next to mountains, like Salt Lake City and Boise.
The post you're replying to was referring to a satirical "loop" of transcontinental interstates around as many cities as possible in the entire country.
Like the Pennsylvania Beltway? I caught heat for suggesting that on the Usenet group misc.transport.road about 15 years ago. A beltway all the way around Pennsylvania so that you don't have to drive thru the state, you can bypass it from any direction.
Quote from: Beltway on April 28, 2018, 10:03:56 PM
A beltway all the way around Pennsylvania so that you don't have to drive thru the state, you can bypass it from any direction.
How do you get from Buffalo to Cleveland? :hmmm:
Via Detroit is a bad option, but via NYC is even worse. A Conneaut to Ripley bridge maybe?
Quote from: webny99 on April 28, 2018, 10:26:38 PM
Quote from: Beltway on April 28, 2018, 10:03:56 PM
A beltway all the way around Pennsylvania so that you don't have to drive thru the state, you can bypass it from any direction.
How do you get from Buffalo to Cleveland? :hmmm:
Via Detroit is a bad option, but via NYC is even worse. A Conneaut to Ripley bridge maybe?
The Lake Erie Viaduct! :spin:
Without getting into a full list of foreign cities, Nagoya's and Osaka's are special in that they're one-way.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 12, 2018, 10:37:25 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 12, 2018, 10:07:33 PM
If we are going to start listing unconstructed ones:
* Chicago with I-55, I-90/I-94, and the Ohio Feeder/Lake Shore Drive version of I-494
Chicago doesn't have any freeway loop downtown. The Ohio feeder turns into surface streets well before the lake (Ontario and Ohio Streets), I-55 is too far south to be part of any downtown loop, and Lake Shore Drive barely resembles a freeway.
He was discussing unconstructed ones that were proposed at one time, but never made it to fruition. And Lake Shore Drive is three words, not two - I corrected it.
Quote from: NE2 on April 29, 2018, 01:57:27 AM
Without getting into a full list of foreign cities, Nagoya's and Osaka's are special in that they're one-way.
So does Charleroi's in Belgium.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 12, 2018, 10:37:25 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 12, 2018, 10:07:33 PM
If we are going to start listing unconstructed ones:
* St. Louis with two versions - US 40, I-70, and MO 755, and a different version where an expressway along Cole Street/Page Avenue corridor (starting at I-70 in earlier plans) would have formed the northern boundary
* Chicago with I-55, I-90/I-94, and the Ohio Feeder/Lake Shore Drive version of I-494
* Wichita, KS? With US 54/US 400, I-135, and the unbuilt Inner Loop
* Louisville, KY? With I-64, I-65, the unbuilt Southwest Radial (9th Street), and the unbuilt Crosstown route (partial loop inside I-264).
* Minneapolis with I-94, I-35W, and the unbuilt I-335
* Milwaukee with I-43, I-794, the partially removed/partially not built Park East, and the unbuilt leg along the Lakefront
* New Orleans? With I-10, Business 90, and the unbuilt I-310 along the river
*Atlanta? With I-20, I-75/I-85, an unbuilt western extension of the GA 10/I-485 corridor, and an unbuilt route from the northern I-75/I-85 interchange to I-85 near the airport
Chicago doesn't have any freeway loop downtown. The Ohio feeder turns into surface streets well before the lake (Ontario and Ohio Streets), I-55 is too far south to be part of any downtown loop, and Lakeshore Drive barely resembles a freeway.
At one time, the plan was to extend the Ohio-Ontario Feeder northeastward to connect with Lakeshore Dr at Michigan Ave, then with other upgrades would have formed a loop with the Stevenson (I-55) and the Dan Ryan/Kennedy (I-90/94).
Mike
Quote from: webny99 on March 12, 2018, 01:37:27 PM
Is there a criteria for how close to downtown it has to be?
This could determine whether, for example, I-90/I-190/I-290 can count for Buffalo. It does circle downtown, but a lot of other attractions/neighborhoods/etc. are inside the loop in addition to the CBD.
That's too big, the most immediate "loop" would actually be I-190/NY-33/NY-198 if we ignore the 1-mile at grade section and stop light on NY-198.
If the West Side arterial and Elm-Oak expressway (almost/partially built) were constructed, then there would be a full loop of downtown itself.
Not building Elm/Oak was a blunder. What's there is unsafe and the developments within are substandard.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.buffalostories.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F05%2F1946-highway-map.jpg&hash=22a31c4f3c934c7e419b82bad2214512c4ee47fc)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailypublic.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2F2016%2FJul%2FLooking-Backward-West-Side-Arterial-1962.jpg&hash=b2b88a7d6b0fadb8c00048beb4cae8a9c6e2ce77)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cyburbia.org%2Fgallery%2Fdata%2F500%2F1796Buffalo_Street_System_1971_CP_1.JPG&hash=811b44d9050bef8e67863ce90666b61c2aa4cac5)
Seattle was originally intended to have one. I-90 (them US 10) was originally supposed to extend the last mile or so to SR (then US) 99 along what is now Royal Brougham Way. (It's why the exits for I-5 from I-90 are "Exit 2" even though they're far less than two miles from the beginning of the freeway.)
On the north side, the Bay Freeway was planned, connecting I-5 and SR 99 along approximately Mercer Street. (Which is why the I-5/Mercer interchange might seem "overbuilt" if you're driving through it out looking at it from above; it was built as a freeway-to-freeway interchange, the traffic light at Fairview right at the foot of the ramps wasn't supposed to still be there five decades later.)
Quote from: Buck87 on March 11, 2018, 01:14:15 PM
Youngstown, OH definitely has a freeway loop, though whether it is "close in" enough to count could be questioned.
I'd say Youngstown qualifies, as most downtown-bound traffic from I-680 would likely take at least one of the freeway loops (US-62, US-422, SR-193) into the CBD/YSU area.
Downtown Akron was nearly surrounded by freeways until the Akron Innerbelt was squelched.
Toledo would come close as well, until their Riverfront Freeway proposal was '86ed in the 70s -- although the I-75 portion to the north of downtown would still be considered too far outside the CBD.
-Newark. Turnpike western spur, 78, Garden State Parkway, 280. You could throw US 1/9 in there as well if you so desire, but it's an awkward connection to the Turnpike heading CW.
-Harrisburg. I-81/83 and PA 581.
Quote from: TheStranger on March 12, 2018, 01:38:43 AM
Unconstructed ones in california:
an "East Bypass" was proposed in downtown LA in the mid-1960s (Route 241 at one point) that would have connected today's 110 between the Santa Monica Freeway/I-10 and the Golden State Freeway/I-5. It was pre-1964 LRN 222 as seen on this map
https://www.cahighways.org/maps/1963routes.jpg
Had the Central and Embarcadero Freeways been fully finished in SF, they would have formed two legs of a loop encircling downtown, with the southeast leg being today's Skyway (I-80).
Also I-280 was going to extend to CA-480 though given the maps seen in the 1970's saying that was going to happen.
Quote from: Revive 755* Minneapolis with I-94, I-35W, and the unbuilt I-335
Technically, yes. But one would have not been able to circle around the loop as the required ramps at 94/335 were never proposed.
Quote from: cl94 on April 30, 2018, 12:10:03 AM
-Harrisburg. I-81/83 and PA 581.
Harrisburg was intended to have a much tighter loop:
- a West Shore Expressway running from the terminus of the York/Baltimore Expressway in Lemoyne to the wide spot in the median of I-81 (https://goo.gl/maps/kYtzSJuk3J52) near Enola, and...
- an East Shore Expressway running roughly parallel to/on top of Cameron Street from the I-81/US 22-322 interchange to the semi-directional 2nd Street interchange.