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Author Topic: I-405 widening in Orange County  (Read 7512 times)

jrouse

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I-405 widening in Orange County
« on: September 24, 2014, 04:03:57 PM »

The Orange County Transportation Authority board approved a plan to move forward with using local sales tax funds to build an additional general purpose lane on I-405 between State Route 73 and I-605.  This project will build the roadway to its ultimate footprint, which will eventually allow Caltrans to come in and add a HOT lane and convert the existing HOV lane to a HOT lane.  That work will take place either as part of this project or in a later phase, depending upon funding.  The "one general purpose lane" option is known as Alternative 1, while the HOT lane alternative, which included the general purpose lane plus the HOT lane, is known as Alternative 3.   The OCTA board voted last December to go through with Alternative 1.  Caltrans, however, has the final say in the project and in July announced it will push forward with Alternative 3.  Sales tax measure money will not be used to pay for the HOT lane component of Alternative 3, in deference to the wishes of the OCTA board.   

The board met on Monday to formalize this decision.  I attended the board meeting.  It was a bit acrimonious, with some misinformation flying around, and charges being leveled against Caltrans that were not accurate, nor, in my opinion, fair.  Our District 12 director, who is an ex oficio member of the board, did a very good job explaining why Caltrans supports Alternative 3.  Some of the board members wanted to do a study of building 2 HOV lanes, instead of HOT lanes.  That motion was voted down.  There was another motion made for the board to officially state that they were opposed to Caltrans going forward with Alternative 3.   This motion generated the most discussion, but in the end it was also voted down, due to other board members expressing concerns that such an action could delay the project altogether.

Here's some articles about that board meeting.

http://www.latimes.com/local/orangecounty/la-me-0923-lexus-lanes-20140923-story.html

http://www.voiceofoc.org/county/article_594f56bc-4299-11e4-8247-37ffbd3e6225.html

Here's info about the project itself:

http://www.octa.net/Freeways-and-Streets/San-Diego-Freeway-%28I-405%29/I-405-Improvement-Project/Overview/
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myosh_tino

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2014, 04:30:45 PM »

So why is the OCTA so adamant that the existing HOV lane not be converted to a HOT lane?  Are they afraid toll-paying solo drivers would clog the lane?  It's not like they're losing a lane during non-commute hours because the HOV lane on I-405 is buffer-separated and operates 24/7.

That last point I made is the primary reason why I'm not thrilled about the HOV to HOT conversions being discussed up here in the S.F. Bay Area.
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jrouse

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2014, 05:51:04 PM »

So why is the OCTA so adamant that the existing HOV lane not be converted to a HOT lane?  Are they afraid toll-paying solo drivers would clog the lane?  It's not like they're losing a lane during non-commute hours because the HOV lane on I-405 is buffer-separated and operates 24/7.

The cities along the 405 corridor are anti-toll, and the board members which represent those cities bring that view to the table.  This attitude seems to have carried over to the entire OCTA board, which is surprising given the success of the 91 express lanes which that agency operates, and the huge amount of money it generates.  I think there is also a lack of general understanding that this would be a HOT lane, and would not operate like the 91 express lanes.

Loss of access is actually also a concern, as the proposal right now would eliminate the number of access openings on that segment of I-405 by about half.

That last point I made is the primary reason why I'm not thrilled about the HOV to HOT conversions being discussed up here in the S.F. Bay Area.

Actually, the Bay Area express lanes will operate with mostly continuous access; there will be places where people will not be able to get in and out, but for the most part, they will be able to.  In fact, one of the first conversion projects, on I-680 in the San Ramon Valley, will not incorporate any access restrictions at all.

There has been some talk about possibly incorporating a more open access approach on I-405 in order to address the access concern issues.

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jdbx

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2014, 06:03:22 PM »


Actually, the Bay Area express lanes will operate with mostly continuous access; there will be places where people will not be able to get in and out, but for the most part, they will be able to.  In fact, one of the first conversion projects, on I-680 in the San Ramon Valley, will not incorporate any access restrictions at all.


My understanding was that part of the reason why the access has been restricted on existing HOT lanes (such as 680 South through Fremont) was to ensure that traffic using the lanes passes beneath the Fastrak readers.  With open-access, what is to prevent people from hopping out of the HOT lane at each Fastrak reader?
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jrouse

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2014, 10:22:04 PM »

There really won't be much of anything to keep people from weaving in and out.  However, based on what was seen in Minnesota (where they have mostly continous access), it is likely that the general purpose lanes will still be at a lower speed and that congestion will discourage the weaving in and out.  In addition, the tolling will be zone based; in other words, the toll between points A and B will be the same regardless of how far you travel in the lane between those points. 

No one has demonstrated that a completely open acess HOT lane can work.  Washington State DOT just recently converted the HOT lanes on State Route 167 to continuous access, and they are doing 6 month before and after studies on the change.  I have not heard anything about how that facility is performing since it changed.
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myosh_tino

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2014, 01:30:35 PM »

Loss of access is actually also a concern, as the proposal right now would eliminate the number of access openings on that segment of I-405 by about half.

Seeing how bad traffic can get on 405, I can understand why eliminating half of the access points would irk some people.

Actually, the Bay Area express lanes will operate with mostly continuous access; there will be places where people will not be able to get in and out, but for the most part, they will be able to.  In fact, one of the first conversion projects, on I-680 in the San Ramon Valley, will not incorporate any access restrictions at all.

How far along is the I-680 conversion project?  I ask because the only HOT lanes I knew were in the works in that region are the I-580 lanes from I-680 to the base of the Altamont Pass.  Originally these were to be buffer-separated like the I-680 Express Lane but now it looks like the westbound HOT lane is going to be continuous access to Hacienda, buffer-separated from Hacienda to 680 and back to continuous access from 680 to San Ramon Rd.  The eastbound HOT lane is buffer-separated from Hacienda to Fallon and continuous access the rest of the way to Greenville.  It'll be interesting to see how these Express Lanes turn out and whether the existing Express Lanes at 680 south and 880/237 will be converted.

This seems to be the complete opposite of what's being planned for the south bay.  Most early plans I've seen for the US 101 and Hwy 85 HOT/Express Lanes all call for them being buffer-separated with limited entry and exit points.
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jrouse

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2014, 01:17:56 AM »

The 680 project covers the segment between Alcosta Blvd and Livorna Road.  It is scheduled to be converted either late next year or 2016.

The Alameda County Transportation Commission will eventually convert the existing express lane on 680 over the Sunol Grade.  You may know they are planning to build an express lane in the northbound direction and they may do that by eliminating those weave zone acess areas on the southbound express lanes and realigning the barrier.

I don't think Santa Clara VTA has plans to convert the lanes on 237 but the extension of those lanes westward to Mathilda Avenue will have continuous access or mostly continuous access, depending on the traffic operational analyses.
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bing101

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Plutonic Panda

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2017, 08:27:00 PM »

As a reminder, this project starts in January. This project will complete the recently expanded I-405 from I-605 to SR-22 to have 2 continuous HOT lanes in each direction plus 5 GP lanes from I-605 to SR-73.

http://www.octa.net/Projects-and-Programs/Under-Construction/I-405-Improvement-Project/?frm=7135#!Details

I wish they would have gone a step further and configured it to have 3 toll lanes each way buried, 2 HOV lane each way, plus 6 GP lanes each way. That could be feasible in some spots but would require property acquisitions in others, especially in the South Bay. I only mention South Bay because I’d like to see my capacity increase plan take place from SR-73 to US-101. I wonder how much that would cost anyhow. It’d be similar to the 635 expansion project in Dallas but would essentially create a tollway separate from HOV lanes creating the most advanced freeway in the world. Do my plan, there would be no traffic issues on the 405 even during rush hour for the next 50 Years or more as long as other freeways such as the 5 get proper upgrades which is happening.

Apart from my ambitious wish to see the 405 become a 22 lane facility(that’s strictly for through lanes!!!), Metro has released more details in an updated funding plan to expedite certain projects by 2028. Among them is another Sepulveda Pass expansion which would add a new lane to covert the existing HOV lane to a HOT lane making it 2 HOT lanes in each direction while preserving the current number of GP lanes. They also say there is the potential this will be extended to the 105 to connect with that HOT lane project which will also add a lane to make it 2 HOT lanes in each direction while maintaining the current number of GP lanes. A new interchange is planned for the 105 at the 405.

As far as I know, no new lanes are planned for the South Bay Curve other than auxiliary lanes which is a shame. I would like to at least see OC’s 5GP lanes plus 2 express lanes in each direction maintained. If they are able to expedite these projects by 2028 or sooner(which they claim they will do), along with transit improvements, I could see this helping traffic some. Time will tell.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 08:50:08 PM by Plutonic Panda »
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2023, 06:13:30 AM »

This project wraps up at the end of the year.

https://abc7.com/orange-county-405-freeway-express-lanes-octa/13495210/

It’ll be nice for the OCTA to have their hands freed and focus on the I-5 south and SR-55 projects. After that they an additional I-5 project which addresses the segment from El Toro Road to the San Diego County line. They also are wrapping up the streetcar next year.

Getting closer to 2030 it’ll be interesting to see what they propose. The Pacific Surfliner needs to be addressed and that won’t be cheap. They need to pull their heads out of their ass and go with a tolled tunnel for the 241 to connect it with I-5(doubt that happens). They also have studies for an Irvine to Corona tunnel and a freeway conversion of SR-55 to CA-1. I also wonder if they’ll propose any serious LRT lines or a streetcar extension to Disney.
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theroadwayone

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2023, 09:40:21 PM »

This project wraps up at the end of the year.

https://abc7.com/orange-county-405-freeway-express-lanes-octa/13495210/

It’ll be nice for the OCTA to have their hands freed and focus on the I-5 south and SR-55 projects. After that they an additional I-5 project which addresses the segment from El Toro Road to the San Diego County line. They also are wrapping up the streetcar next year.

Getting closer to 2030 it’ll be interesting to see what they propose. The Pacific Surfliner needs to be addressed and that won’t be cheap. They need to pull their heads out of their ass and go with a tolled tunnel for the 241 to connect it with I-5(doubt that happens). They also have studies for an Irvine to Corona tunnel and a freeway conversion of SR-55 to CA-1. I also wonder if they’ll propose any serious LRT lines or a streetcar extension to Disney.
I highly doubt any tunnel projects in this region are likely to happen for a variety of reasons.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2023, 12:43:23 PM »

If the 710 extension couldn't be built as a tunnel, I highly doubt any freeway/tollway tunnels would be constructed in the Los Angeles Metropolitan Area. As for a 241-toll tunnel, and a 55 upgrade to freeway standards southwest of W. 19th Street, they sound like worthwhile proposals: for Fictional Highways.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2023, 01:00:23 PM »

If the 710 extension couldn't be built as a tunnel, I highly doubt any freeway/tollway tunnels would be constructed in the Los Angeles Metropolitan Area. As for a 241-toll tunnel, and a 55 upgrade to freeway standards southwest of W. 19th Street, they sound like worthwhile proposals: for Fictional Highways.
710 extension was not due to an inability to tunnel here. It was due to a lack of political motivation for new freeways. Pandering.

Same reasons 710 S. expansion was canceled. The high desert corridor freeway was canceled. None of those tunnels but canceled. If anywhere could pull it off out here it’d be the OCTA which is arguably the most pro freeway agency in California.

I also just love anytime a tunnel gets mentioned in the USA people immediately jump on it and explain why it can’t be when countries that have a fraction of our GDP can do it.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 01:03:28 PM by Plutonic Panda »
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2023, 01:06:22 PM »

I also wouldn’t consider these as fictional either. 241 tunnel? Sure that’s fictional. But the Corona-Irvine and SR-55 trench are all very real proposals and studied. Just shelved for the time being due the insane costs, likely formidable opposition, and other projects taking priority. So difficult to overcome like other mega projects? Yes. Fictional? No.
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pderocco

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2023, 10:30:16 PM »

This project wraps up at the end of the year.

https://abc7.com/orange-county-405-freeway-express-lanes-octa/13495210/

It’ll be nice for the OCTA to have their hands freed and focus on the I-5 south and SR-55 projects. After that they an additional I-5 project which addresses the segment from El Toro Road to the San Diego County line.

Didn't they already do the latter, at least down to the middle of San Clemente, in the last few years? Is widening I-5 (and I-405) becoming like painting the Golden Gate Bridge?
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kendancy66

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2023, 02:43:59 AM »

This project wraps up at the end of the year.

https://abc7.com/orange-county-405-freeway-express-lanes-octa/13495210/

It’ll be nice for the OCTA to have their hands freed and focus on the I-5 south and SR-55 projects. After that they an additional I-5 project which addresses the segment from El Toro Road to the San Diego County line.

Didn't they already do the latter, at least down to the middle of San Clemente, in the last few years? Is widening I-5 (and I-405) becoming like painting the Golden Gate Bridge?


Currently they are working on I-5 from El Toro Rd to Avery Parkway, and have been working there for a long while (I think at least two years).  I am not sure of current progress because I don't live near there anymore.  The car pool lane work done in San Clemente has been done for a long while.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2023, 03:00:21 AM »

This project is very close to nearing completion. I would say the express lanes would be open by the end of the year.
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2023, 06:30:21 PM »

Update: the tolled express lanes are scheduled to open December 1st!

https://405expresslanes.com/?gad=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6-i7_MeCggMVSiWtBh3UtQWoEAAYASAAEgIREfD_BwE
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SeriesE

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2023, 02:31:30 AM »

Hopefully the asphalt on the older lanes will be repaved. Some lanes are missing chunks of asphalt even now.
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jdbx

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Re: I-405 widening in Orange County
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2023, 01:34:25 PM »

Hopefully the asphalt on the older lanes will be repaved. Some lanes are missing chunks of asphalt even now.

That is something that has always kind of bugged me during widening projects.  So often, you get this nicely paved new lane, with a fairly rough joint right next to the old crummy pavement.  It would be nice if a full overlay was part of the final stage of opening these widening projects, at least in those cases where the existing lanes are noticeably more distressed.
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California5

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I-405 Expresslanes in OC Finally Built
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2024, 07:26:53 PM »

They finally built the I-405 express lanes starting at the OC line, I-405/I-605 interchange all the way down to the SR-73 Tolls.

They also improved some nearby surface streets.

What do you guys think about it? Will this finished project improve some traffic or make it only worse like that project in 2011 in the
Sepulveda Pass?  :hmmm:
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RZF

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Re: I-405 Expresslanes in OC Finally Built
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2024, 10:31:58 PM »

If someone is willing to pay to go faster on I-405 because they routinely take that route for work/school/family/etc, it's going to make their lives a lot easier. For those who don't want to pay, they still have to deal with similar traffic volumes. It's one of those things in which the benefits or consequences are reaped on an individual level.
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Max Rockatansky

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Re: I-405 Expresslanes in OC Finally Built
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2024, 10:54:16 PM »

Considering my only two stoppage-free runs of making through the entire distance of I-405 in daylight hours came recently I would be hesitant to call the Carmageddon sagas a failure.
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mrsman

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Re: I-405 Expresslanes in OC Finally Built
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2024, 03:10:47 PM »

If someone is willing to pay to go faster on I-405 because they routinely take that route for work/school/family/etc, it's going to make their lives a lot easier. For those who don't want to pay, they still have to deal with similar traffic volumes. It's one of those things in which the benefits or consequences are reaped on an individual level.

Agreed.  There is definitely a sense that a toll lane aspect, especially where tolls go up with congestion, can provide for congestion relief for a price.  It is definitely too difficult to keep widening roads.  The hope is that the price aspect will always preserve a congestion free option for those who are willing to pay.
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