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Author Topic: 241-91 Toll connector opposed by the OCTA  (Read 3707 times)

MarkF

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241-91 Toll connector opposed by the OCTA
« on: December 15, 2017, 12:38:26 AM »

Bad news, the OCTA, which runs the 91 toll lanes, wants to stop or delay a direct connector from CA 241 to the 91 Express (toll) lanes.  It fears the connector will congest the express lanes on the 91.

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/12/11/orange-county-transportation-authority-wants-plans-for-ramp-connecting-91-express-lanes-and-241-toll-roads-slowed-down/

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/12/04/influential-orange-county-panel-opposes-ramp-that-would-connect-the-91-express-lanes-with-the-241-toll-road/

« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 01:09:54 AM by MarkF »
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: 241-91 Toll connector opposed by the OCTA
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2017, 01:13:20 AM »

I’m not understand the OCTA’s position on what they want to do. Take a break for what reason? They offered no alternatives. Do they want to widen the freeway further before it’s constructed? It would be nice if they offered some sort of plan other than just say “it could increase congestion”  and make vague statements like this ramp might not be the best solution but one should be found. To me it would seem an increase in users would be a good thing.

If necessary add a third tolled lane in each direction on the 91, but I do stick by beliefs any tolled lane added should have a free GP lane added as well. If it will reduce weaving, that’s even better.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 11:48:51 PM by Plutonic Panda »
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sparker

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Re: 241-91 Toll connector opposed by the OCTA
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2017, 05:15:51 AM »

There's the strong possibility that OCTA hasn't arrived at a means of revenue apportionment for drivers directly accessing one tolled system (the 241/261/133 South County tollways) and the other (the 91 dedicated commuter lanes).  It certainly took them long enough to make a deal with Riverside County to extend the lanes into Corona and I-15; at this point -- since two county agencies are now involved with the administration of the 91 toll lanes, adding an additional variant on the existing bi-jurisdiction formula is something OCTA and their Riverside counterparts are intending to postpone as long as they can -- or until an interagency deal that puts extra driver $$ into their working pockets can be cobbled together.  Knowing OCTA and their political handlers, it won't be just the possibility of congestion that is stalling the direct-connection process -- it's who gets what in terms of income-sharing; once that's sorted out, expect a good deal of backtracking about the congestion concerns.
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i-215

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Re: 241-91 Toll connector opposed by the OCTA
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2017, 11:44:25 PM »

This is why I hate toll authorities.  It creates an adversarial relationship between DOT and the toll agency.  They should be on the same team ("Team: Moving Cars"). 
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sparker

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Re: 241-91 Toll connector opposed by the OCTA
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2017, 11:17:52 PM »

This is why I hate toll authorities.  It creates an adversarial relationship between DOT and the toll agency.  They should be on the same team ("Team: Moving Cars"). 

I lived in OC for about 7 years; if I learned anything about OCTA, it's that they not only don't play well with others, but also tend to gather their wagons in a circle when criticized (or sued!).  Adversarial relations seem to be second nature in that agency -- even when cooperation would seemingly be in their best interest.  Essentially official tribalism at its least productive level!
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: 241-91 Toll connector opposed by the OCTA
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2017, 11:35:56 PM »

So do they have decent chances at getting the tollways extensions in south OC through?
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sparker

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Re: 241-91 Toll connector opposed by the OCTA
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2017, 01:52:26 AM »

So do they have decent chances at getting the tollways extensions in south OC through?

Probably not; between the Coastal Commission, the NIMBY's in and around Capistrano and San Clemente, and the courts, the original 241 South alignment merging with I-5 just south of the SD/OC line (essentially San Onofre) is functionally a dead issue.  South County is NIMBY Central, so alternately considered alignments down to the 5/73 junction or along San Juan Creek to I-5 near the CA 1 exit are all but dead as well.  Unless someone comes up with the $$$$ to take 241 down the ridgeline around the back of Camp Pendleton (more or less through Fallbrook toward CA 76), the tollway is virtually stopped in its tracks. 
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: 241-91 Toll connector opposed by the OCTA
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2017, 06:03:20 AM »

Shame. Maybe they’ll bring out a surprise but I sure won’t hold my breath. Would be nice though.
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theroadwayone

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Re: 241-91 Toll connector opposed by the OCTA
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2017, 02:42:45 PM »

So do they have decent chances at getting the tollways extensions in south OC through?

Probably not; between the Coastal Commission, the NIMBY's in and around Capistrano and San Clemente, and the courts, the original 241 South alignment merging with I-5 just south of the SD/OC line (essentially San Onofre) is functionally a dead issue.  South County is NIMBY Central, so alternately considered alignments down to the 5/73 junction or along San Juan Creek to I-5 near the CA 1 exit are all but dead as well.  Unless someone comes up with the $$$$ to take 241 down the ridgeline around the back of Camp Pendleton (more or less through Fallbrook toward CA 76), the tollway is virtually stopped in its tracks.
I looked at the map of all the possible alignments; the one I liked the most was running it down to Christianitos. I thought that maybe if they did a cut-and-cover where it would be most offensive, they might just have a chance of getting it done.
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sparker

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Re: 241-91 Toll connector opposed by the OCTA
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2017, 07:09:59 PM »

I looked at the map of all the possible alignments; the one I liked the most was running it down to Christianitos. I thought that maybe if they did a cut-and-cover where it would be most offensive, they might just have a chance of getting it done.

Most of the proposed alternatives, including the one cited above, impinge on what are considered "riparian" watersheds (most of the creeks and creekbeds in the area fall under that category); even crossing them requires structure design and implementation to avoid interacting with creek-bound flora & fauna.  While not enough to stop freeways or tollways in their tracks, it certainly adds to both the political/NIMBY "noise" during the designation/alignment process as well as the cost of eventual deployment.   Just considering "cut & cover" as a partial concession wouldn't likely carry much weight; developing roadways in South County is an exercise best described as self-torture! :banghead:
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theroadwayone

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Re: 241-91 Toll connector opposed by the OCTA
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2017, 07:22:31 PM »

I looked at the map of all the possible alignments; the one I liked the most was running it down to Christianitos. I thought that maybe if they did a cut-and-cover where it would be most offensive, they might just have a chance of getting it done.

Most of the proposed alternatives, including the one cited above, impinge on what are considered "riparian" watersheds (most of the creeks and creekbeds in the area fall under that category); even crossing them requires structure design and implementation to avoid interacting with creek-bound flora & fauna.  While not enough to stop freeways or tollways in their tracks, it certainly adds to both the political/NIMBY "noise" during the designation/alignment process as well as the cost of eventual deployment.   Just considering "cut & cover" as a partial concession wouldn't likely carry much weight; developing roadways in South County is an exercise best described as self-torture! :banghead:
Given the TCA's history of protecting the environment around where they build their roads, I'd leave that up to them. Let's just see what we get in the future. Hell, maybe the 241 could be extended south to my fake island where my I-3 runs, to give an even shorter cut to San Diego.
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Occidental Tourist

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Re: 241-91 Toll connector opposed by the OCTA
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2017, 12:30:01 AM »

The only remaining economically-possible route is over the hill at La Pata and down to Camino Capistrano. And the NIMBYs will kill that, too.
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theroadwayone

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Re: 241-91 Toll connector opposed by the OCTA
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2017, 12:32:53 AM »

The only remaining economically-possible route is over the hill at La Pata and down to Camino Capistrano. And the NIMBYs will kill that, too.
Why don't we just call up the Pentagon to ask the U.S. Air Force to just send a few B-2s to carpet bomb that place? That'll solve all our problems.
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