Locations Where Drivers do Things Wrong

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

Reviving a dead thread here, but there's an interesting practice that drivers in downstate NY have adopted at certain parkway interchanges that usually isn't illegal but is "wrong" based on the intended flow of traffic and guide signage at the interchange.

Many interchanges between the Taconic State Parkway and secondary roads are of a [baffling by modern sensibilities] modified cloverleaf design: TSP & NY-82 in East Fishkill is a good example. These are pretty awful to negotiate: all the ramps have incredibly tight radii for the speed of the parkway and no parallel acceleration/deceleration lanes so when exiting you are forced to slow down in the mainline travel lane, and when entering during busy times you usually have to stop and wait, then floor it.

Most local drivers adapt to these interchanges where possible by entering/exiting the parkway at the ramp with more favorable visibility/geometry, turning left if necessary. At the NY-82 interchange, basically every driver familiar with the area making the NY-82 North to TSP North movement will turn left to enter the Parkway: the "proper" entrance ramp involves a 180-degree turn and is stop-controlled with a bad sag vertical curve restricting visibility, while the other ramp has better visibility and is yield-controlled.

The TSP & NY-301 interchange in Kent/Putnam Valley has an even stranger, and much worse modified cloverleaf design. You would have to be suicidal or stupid to enter the TSP North using the northeastern access ramp: the overpass abutment restricts your visibility to around 400 feet.

I've alway wondered why NYSDOT hasn't just converted these interchanges to a diamond design: the volumes on the ramps would be low enough to do it in plenty of places. Maybe they want to leave all the original ramps open to preserve the "historical character of the parkway" or something like that.

[kphoger]

US-131 through downtown Grand Rapids. There are solid white lines between the Wealthy St and Pearl St exits, yet people still change lanes

That's perfectly legal.

[jp the roadgeek]

The I-84 tunnel in Hartford.  All lanes are solid white lines within the tunnel, which I understand prohibits lane changes.  The lines become dashed again as you exit the tunnel,  but people still change lanes within the tunnel itself.  In addition, eastbound drivers oftentimes cut across the chevron divider at the last second at full speed to get in the lane for I-91 North, which is definitely a no-no in both the courtesy and legal departments. 

[MNHighwayMan]

MnDOT marks such things with a double white line and signs that state "DO NOT CROSS DOUBLE WHITE LINE", in regards to the Lowry Hill Tunnel on I-94 (and also in places where the vehicles in the MnPass lane aren't supposed to enter the general travel lanes). I wonder if that standard couldn't be used elsewhere.

[kphoger]

A single solid white line indicates that changing lanes is discouraged but not prohibited.
A double solid white line indicates that changing lanes is prohibited.

The rules are different than those applying to solid yellow lines, as yellow lines divide directions of travel.  A single solid yellow line means the same thing as a double solid yellow line:  it is prohibited to drive on the wrong side of it.

[webny99]

MnDOT marks such things with a double white line and signs that state "DO NOT CROSS DOUBLE WHITE LINE", in regards to the Lowry Hill Tunnel on I-94 (and also in places where the vehicles in the MnPass lane aren't supposed to enter the general travel lanes).

Yep --- small world (again)! Was just on I-35W this morning. I really like how the HOT lane has a double-solid for about a mile through the I-494 interchange. It keeps all the merging traffic from entering until further downstream, so that lane is guaranteed to be flowing --- quite a feat for such an antiquated and congested interchange. It is awesome to whiz by at 70mph while the other lanes slow down to accommodate all the incoming traffic.

[kphoger]

It is awesome to whiz by at 70mph while the other lanes slow down to accommodate all the incoming traffic.

But also kind of nerve-racking, just waiting for that one idiot to dart out into the other lane at 40 mph less than the flow.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

If it was a weekday, you would be posting about how many morons violate it and defeat the purpose.

Personally I'd be OK if one of the interchanges between 494 and 98th St was taken out, preferably the 82nd St interchange due to its proximity to 494.

[sparker]

Technically it's not illegal as such, but it is plainly dumb -- but the design of the road makes it all but impossible that it won't happen:  drivers speeding up and attempting to pass you on the right -- but using lanes that either (a) end or (b) exit!  I-280 through downtown San Jose -- in both directions -- is the poster child for this.  Lanes either exit or simply disappear (with some, but not comprehensive, signage indicating the fate of the lane).  So drivers move to the right, either to pass or anticipating their exit somewhere down the road -- only to find that the lane's gone or is going to be in short order.  WB (cardinal north) is particularly bad because between CA 87 and the I-880/CA 17 interchange the freeway does what I call the "Caltrans Shift", adding left lanes while either dropping or exiting the right ones; eventually only the added lanes (3 total) go through the 880/17 interchange.  So virtually everyone who's been riding in all but the leftmost lane will have to shift or exit in a stretch with either an exit or entrance every half mile!  It's four miles of "oh, shit" unless you've been on it several times and have mastered the idiom!

[RobbieL2415]

The I-84 tunnel in Hartford.  All lanes are solid white lines within the tunnel, which I understand prohibits lane changes.  The lines become dashed again as you exit the tunnel,  but people still change lanes within the tunnel itself.  In addition, eastbound drivers oftentimes cut across the chevron divider at the last second at full speed to get in the lane for I-91 North, which is definitely a no-no in both the courtesy and legal departments.

Not according to ConnDOT regulations. The only time solid white lines prohibit movement is for gore points and shoulders. There are also no statues specifically prohibiting lane changes over solid white lines.

[debragga]

US 175 @ Malloy Bridge Rd in Seagoville, TX has a lot of drivers do things wrong:

Southbound Malloy Bridge @ West US 175 service road:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.6476743,-96.533657,3a,75y,204.69h,87.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slaK1eTmdFs_D7P_W4Ci6iA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Southbound Malloy Bridge @ East US 175 service road:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.6469717,-96.5342722,3a,75y,232.26h,95.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slAsD3hmlJ6ZHWOenvmqD1Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Northbound Malloy Bridge @ West US 175 service road:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.6473495,-96.5338748,3a,75y,47.1h,94.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv-a3O8pm1qE8BfdxjbVL2w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

For southbound traffic, the right lane is right turn only, and cars in the left lane are supposed to swerve into the right lane in the intersection because the lane they're in becomes a left-turn only for northbound traffic. Then that lane becomes a left-turn only lane to the 175 East service road. If there's no northbound traffic in that left lane, some people wanting to go east will go straight through the lane (on the wrong side of the road) and turn left. Also a lot of people (including myself) will start the turn waaaaayyyy before the end of the solid yellow lines, since there's no median.

Another big problem is northbound traffic turning left to go east completely ignoring the dual turn lane setup and/or going whether they have the green arrow or not.

[webny99]

Confession time: I've gotten myself into some close shaves at this location because, during afternoon rush, when the ramp to NY 590 North is notoriously congested, every single driver does the wrong thing here. About 2/3 do this, and I mean, literally, make a 90 degree turn in the direction you're looking and start lining up back onto the on-ramp, hundreds of feet before it even joins the mainline. Everyone else whizzes by at speed and then brakes at the last second to LOOK for a gap in traffic that does not exist, idiotically slowing down the southbound lane, and making delays even worse. ...

Every time I personally try to merge at the merge point, I get traffic swarming around on both sides and trying to cut in front. This irks me to no end ... and I don't know what to do to diffuse this awful situation without doing the wrong thing myself, and I can't accept that as a solution.

Alright, I know this is an old topic, but as rush hour traffic has picked up again in the wake of Covid, this ramp has become an issue again, and I continue to ponder what is the "right" way to do things here. My default is to stay in the right lane, allow a bit of extra space in front of me to avoid constant braking, and merge into the entrance ramp lane right away when it joins, taking pains to keep moving, while also avoiding interference with entering traffic. It works pretty well - and as long as I keep moving, people don't usually cut over to the right way too early and come "swarming" up from behind, like I originally described. However, people staying to the left and then cutting in at the last second is invariably still an issue, which of course creates ripple effects of braking and slows everyone down.

So I guess my big-picture question would be, what do other folks think is the "right" way to handle a short, high-volume weave? Do I just accept as fact that people are going to cut in? Do you think I'm navigating this one as well as possible, or is there a better solution apart from widening the congested ramp?

[kphoger]

So I guess my big-picture question would be, what do other folks think is the "right" way to handle a short, high-volume weave?

Get into the less-trafficked lane as soon as possible.  Maybe this is reasonable to accomplish without crossing over a painted gore, but don't ignore what might be a good maneuver idea just because of some painted lines.  What matters most is what the vehicles are doing, not what the stripes are like.

Do I just accept as fact that people are going to cut in?

Yes.  When weaving traffic is thick, "cutting in" by some people is almost unavoidable.  In fact, it may even be preferable.  You should expect it, look ahead for it to happen, and accommodate it.  That's part of helping traffic flow as smoothly as possible.

[webny99]

Do I just accept as fact that people are going to cut in?

Yes.  When weaving traffic is thick, "cutting in" by some people is almost unavoidable.  In fact, it may even be preferable.  You should expect it, look ahead for it to happen, and accommodate it.  That's part of helping traffic flow as smoothly as possible.

I disagree as pertains to when traffic is moving very slowly or stopped up ahead. People cutting in is a big part of what's causing that to happen.

[thspfc]

Do I just accept as fact that people are going to cut in? Do you think I'm navigating this one as well as possible, or is there a better solution apart from widening the congested ramp?

First of all, am I understanding this correctly? Do drivers really make a 90-degree turn onto the Highland Ave ramp, so that they can get in line for the NY-590 ramp ahead? If so that's hilarious, and really bad.

In terms of merging traffic, what can you do about it? You can't control other drivers. If you can't stand other drivers merging late in bumper-to-bumper traffic (which is also a mini pet peeve of mine), stay close to the car ahead and don't let them. If that backs up the southbound ramp? Not your problem, and not your fault either.

[webny99]

Do I just accept as fact that people are going to cut in? Do you think I'm navigating this one as well as possible, or is there a better solution apart from widening the congested ramp?

First of all, am I understanding this correctly? Do drivers really make a 90-degree turn onto the Highland Ave ramp, so that they can get in line for the NY-590 ramp ahead? If so that's hilarious, and really bad.

It's Penfield Rd, not Highland Ave (you might have been looking at 590 NB). 90-degrees is probably a bit exaggerated, but it was worse before Covid so it was definitely close to it when I originally made that comment! It's a total mess between 4:30-6 PM. Like I mentioned, I have found it really helps to keep moving approaching that entrance ramp - as long as you're moving, traffic generally won't try to cut up behind you on the right. But if traffic comes to a complete stop in that spot, anything is fair game - including cutting over where the grate is to get in line!

In terms of merging traffic, what can you do about it? You can't control other drivers. If you can't stand other drivers merging late in bumper-to-bumper traffic (which is also a mini pet peeve of mine), stay close to the car ahead and don't let them. If that backs up the southbound ramp? Not your problem, and not your fault either.

My concern is not just keeping cars from getting in front of me, but maintaining the overall flow without the constant stop-start that can back up the right lane(s) for miles, which is caused by people cutting in at the end.

[kphoger]

Do I just accept as fact that people are going to cut in? Do you think I'm navigating this one as well as possible, or is there a better solution apart from widening the congested ramp?

First of all, am I understanding this correctly? Do drivers really make a 90-degree turn onto the Highland Ave ramp, so that they can get in line for the NY-590 ramp ahead? If so that's hilarious, and really bad.

In terms of merging traffic, what can you do about it? You can't control other drivers. If you can't stand other drivers merging late in bumper-to-bumper traffic (which is also a mini pet peeve of mine), stay close to the car ahead and don't let them. If that backs up the southbound ramp? Not your problem, and not your fault either.

Partially your fault.

If you do something to intentionally block another driver from doing something that would improve the flow of traffic–whether or not that other driver is doing a dickhead maneuver–then yes, you're partially to blame for what happens.

If you expect everyone else on the road to obey all the rules, and to obey them in just the way you'd prefer, then your expectation is not realistic.  There's a certain avid Illinoisan member on this forum that takes that attitude on the road, for whom nothing is ever his own fault because they other guy did something wrong first.  Don't be like that.  Everyone on the road has the responsibility to help improve the traffic flow, and in the process to accommodate the timid and the bold, the stickler and the scofflaw, the slow and the fast, the prudent and the reckless, the old Mennonite farmer and the half-drunk redneck teenager.

And for what it's worth, merging "late" in bumper-to-bumper traffic isn't really against any law, is it?  It's just not merging "early enough" for your preference.  It's a mini pet peeve of mine when drivers merge really early, to the point that they haven't even matched the flow of traffic yet by the time they merge;  that's not generally an issue in bumper-to-bumper traffic, but it just goes to show that two people's expectations of when to merge aren't necessarily identical.

[RobbieL2415]

Do I just accept as fact that people are going to cut in? Do you think I'm navigating this one as well as possible, or is there a better solution apart from widening the congested ramp?

First of all, am I understanding this correctly? Do drivers really make a 90-degree turn onto the Highland Ave ramp, so that they can get in line for the NY-590 ramp ahead? If so that's hilarious, and really bad.

In terms of merging traffic, what can you do about it? You can't control other drivers. If you can't stand other drivers merging late in bumper-to-bumper traffic (which is also a mini pet peeve of mine), stay close to the car ahead and don't let them. If that backs up the southbound ramp? Not your problem, and not your fault either.

Partially your fault.

If you do something to intentionally block another driver from doing something that would improve the flow of traffic–whether or not that other driver is doing a dickhead maneuver–then yes, you're partially to blame for what happens.

If you expect everyone else on the road to obey all the rules, and to obey them in just the way you'd prefer, then your expectation is not realistic.  There's a certain avid Illinoisan member on this forum that takes that attitude on the road, for whom nothing is ever his own fault because they other guy did something wrong first.  Don't be like that.  Everyone on the road has the responsibility to help improve the traffic flow, and in the process to accommodate the timid and the bold, the stickler and the scofflaw, the slow and the fast, the prudent and the reckless, the old Mennonite farmer and the half-drunk redneck teenager.

And for what it's worth, merging "late" in bumper-to-bumper traffic isn't really against any law, is it?  It's just not merging "early enough" for your preference.  It's a mini pet peeve of mine when drivers merge really early, to the point that they haven't even matched the flow of traffic yet by the time they merge;  that's not generally an issue in bumper-to-bumper traffic, but it just goes to show that two people's expectations of when to merge aren't necessarily identical.

The taper exists to provide an efficient and orderly merging of one lane into another. People cut in early because they're afraid they won't be let in at the taper. A majority of people aren't d*cks. Some just aren't paying attention. If you start to enter the lane following the taper, they will back off or (if not merging in heavy traffic) change lanes. It's their loss if they weren't paying attention in driving school and/or missed the warning signs indicating lane ends or ramp merge.

Also, if you enter the freeway at at least the speed limit, its much easier for drivers in the right lane to negotiate the merge and maintain space. Chances are we're moving either slightly faster or slower than you, so you can enter safely ahead or behind us.

[texaskdog]

I merge if I see a slot and try to get in the natural flow, I don't pass a bunch of cars to merge. 

In Texas most idiots never use blinkers.

[Flint1979]

US-23 in both directions around Brighton, Michigan. People get over for the left lane exit's on I-96 far too early and slow down which causes backups. Going SB for the Detroit bound I-96 exit you have to exit on the left, likewise going NB for the Lansing bound I-96 exit you have to exit on the left. Getting on I-96 is much easier than it used to be though, used to merge right into the mainline traffic in the left lanes, now at least you enter in the right lanes but still have to exit in the left lanes.

[Bruce]

Traffic circles in Seattle: failures to yield are common, and cutting the corner for a left turn (instead of going all the way around) is also not uncommon. The latter is especially perilous.