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MUTCD gripes

Started by NoGoodNamesAvailable, September 09, 2018, 07:45:23 PM

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jp the roadgeek

The only thing about that option lane: if you do stay on I-91, it does end about 500 feet beyond the exit ramp.  Future overhead signage (an APL for example), should indicate that.  The only signage that does is a "Lane Ends 400 Feet" sign just beyond the exit gore.
Interstates I've clinched: 97, 290 (MA), 291 (CT), 291 (MA), 293, 295 (DE-NJ-PA), 295 (RI-MA), 384, 391, 395 (CT-MA), 395 (MD), 495 (DE), 610 (LA), 684, 691, 695 (MD), 695 (NY), 795 (MD)


SignBridge

Well if that's the case, you wonder why they don't just have both lanes drop into the exit, instead of forcing an unexpected merge just beyond the split. It would simplify the whole situation.

J N Winkler

I have wondered about striping treatments such as this:

I-27/Buddy Holly Ave. (Exit 2 northbound) in Lubbock, Texas

The exit is a simple lane drop without option lane, and is signed accordingly.  But as the stripe separating the dropped lane from the other lanes becomes solid, it bends to the right, and another lane begins to open up that looks like an option lane, except traffic in it is expected to merge back onto the mainline rather than to take the exit.  The theory that has seemed most plausible to me is that this is to provide recovery area for confused motorists who realize at the last second that they do not want to take the exit.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

jakeroot

Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 23, 2018, 09:56:54 PM
I'm a bit surprised at the confusing your expressing Jake. These signs have been the standard design for an option lane for decades, with a general non-arrow pull thru next to it. I can't recall seeing any confusion whatsoever, as some people turn for the exit, and some continue straight. I would be shocked if you don't encounter some of these on your normal drives.

I only started driving in 2011, and there's been seven years of new drivers right behind me who have to understand these signs. Just because they've been around for a while, doesn't mean they'll continue to be effective, or even that they've been effective. How do we know that the signs were even working? Couldn't it be that the drivers using the option lanes past the exit use it because they know about it? Or that they saw other markings or signs? I don't know what studies the L&A signs were part of, but I'm guessing they're no longer relevant, since their signs aren't allowed anymore.

For the record, I'm used to seeing both types of option lane signs. WSDOT continues to install the above type, with the sign assemblies installed in the wrong place (despite 2009 MUTCD adoption in 2011). BC uses the APL extensively (standard sign for all exit situations), and from my own perspective (not scientific), option lanes are better utilized there. That might be due to no instances of unsigned movements. If there's an option lane, both movements are signed. You really aren't allowed to assume anything.

jakeroot

Quote from: J N Winkler on October 23, 2018, 10:27:04 PM
I have wondered about striping treatments such as this:

I-27/Buddy Holly Ave. (Exit 2 northbound) in Lubbock, Texas

The exit is a simple lane drop without option lane, and is signed accordingly.  But as the stripe separating the dropped lane from the other lanes becomes solid, it bends to the right, and another lane begins to open up that looks like an option lane, except traffic in it is expected to merge back onto the mainline rather than to take the exit.  The theory that has seemed most plausible to me is that this is to provide recovery area for confused motorists who realize at the last second that they do not want to take the exit.

That's just incredible...if they don't want people to think there's an exit, maybe they shouldn't stripe a lane there? If I was coming up on that exit, and saw a dashed line extending from the right edge of the non-exit-only lane beyond the point that the exit lane splits off, I would assume that's an unsigned optional exit.

J N Winkler

Quote from: jakeroot on October 24, 2018, 01:20:03 AMThat's just incredible...if they don't want people to think there's an exit, maybe they shouldn't stripe a lane there? If I was coming up on that exit, and saw a dashed line extending from the right edge of the non-exit-only lane beyond the point that the exit lane splits off, I would assume that's an unsigned optional exit.

My own assumption, the first time I encountered this striping pattern in the mid-noughties (it is used elsewhere on I-27 in Lubbock, including Exits 3 and 4 northbound, but nowhere else in Texas that I have seen), was that a through lane was opening on the right, next to the dropped lane, and that I should move right to maintain good lane discipline.  It was a bit of a shock to have to move back left almost immediately.  I find it amazing that it is still visible in StreetView and satellite view over a decade and probably at least three striping touch-up cycles later.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

kphoger

Quote from: J N Winkler on October 24, 2018, 11:06:25 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 24, 2018, 01:20:03 AMThat's just incredible...if they don't want people to think there's an exit, maybe they shouldn't stripe a lane there? If I was coming up on that exit, and saw a dashed line extending from the right edge of the non-exit-only lane beyond the point that the exit lane splits off, I would assume that's an unsigned optional exit.

My own assumption, the first time I encountered this striping pattern in the mid-noughties (it is used elsewhere on I-27 in Lubbock, including Exits 3 and 4 northbound, but nowhere else in Texas that I have seen), was that a through lane was opening on the right, next to the dropped lane, and that I should move right to maintain good lane discipline.  It was a bit of a shock to have to move back left almost immediately.  I find it amazing that it is still visible in StreetView and satellite view over a decade and probably at least three striping touch-up cycles later.

That's what I would have assumed as well:  that another lane was opening up.  And no, I've never encountered this kind of striping in Texas either.  Texas, IMHO, is awesome at striping and wouldn't do anything like this without a reason.

Quote from: J N Winkler on October 23, 2018, 10:27:04 PM
The theory that has seemed most plausible to me is that this is to provide recovery area for confused motorists who realize at the last second that they do not want to take the exit.

That, of course, is a proper use of the shoulder.  But honestly, I see more people pulling out into traffic from a dead stop than I see using the shoulder to gain speed first, so maybe something like the Lubbock striping would help encourage drivers to avoid being rear-ended.

Minnesota addresses a similar problem by simply providing a short bit of acceleration lane after a cloverleaf exit, like this.
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vdeane

That mention of I-91 reminds me of a similar situation on I-390 south at I-590 - the left and middle left lanes go to I-590, the right (which itself is a ramp from NY 15A that merged in) stays with I-390, and the middle right is an option lane, with the lane on I-590 ending 800 feet later.  In this case, it's actually only a few years old (it used to be for I-390 only), and is to make it easier to travel from NY 15A to I-590.

The Thruway also has some spots like that around here.  EB at I-890 (exit 25), it's because the lane used to continue and it's now there so that traffic from I-890 (which is very heavy) doesn't have to merge in and can have the ramp lane continue.  In the case of I-87 at either end of exits 23-24, I'm not really sure what the rationale is, beyond "the lane entered from a ramp on the right so we want it to end on the right and don't like exit only lanes".

As for I-27, that seems like something most DOTs would just stripe as part of the gore area/shoulder.

Quote from: kphoger on October 24, 2018, 12:44:14 PM
Minnesota addresses a similar problem by simply providing a short bit of acceleration lane after a cloverleaf exit, like this.
The Thruway has that around NY 33 near Buffalo.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

djlynch

Quote from: J N Winkler on October 23, 2018, 10:27:04 PM
I have wondered about striping treatments such as this:

I-27/Buddy Holly Ave. (Exit 2 northbound) in Lubbock, Texas

The exit is a simple lane drop without option lane, and is signed accordingly.  But as the stripe separating the dropped lane from the other lanes becomes solid, it bends to the right, and another lane begins to open up that looks like an option lane, except traffic in it is expected to merge back onto the mainline rather than to take the exit.  The theory that has seemed most plausible to me is that this is to provide recovery area for confused motorists who realize at the last second that they do not want to take the exit.

There are several exits on the Ben White Freeway (US 290/TX 71) in Austin that have the same thing, but they're not at all of the lane drop exits, so it's not really clear why some get them and others don't.



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