Tolling Methods Compared

[roadman]

People often do not receive disregard the bills they receive in the mail and discover they cannot have registrations and DLs cancelled renewed due to supposed their intentional non-payment.

FIFY

[hotdogPi]

People often do not receive disregard the bills they receive in the mail and discover they cannot have registrations and DLs cancelled renewed due to supposed their intentional non-payment.

FIFY

It was correct before. Massachusetts isn't one of the offenders, but it applies to several other states.

[jeffandnicole]

If they didn't receive bills in the mail, then something was wrong with the mailing address at the source.  And bills aren't sent out once, but multiple times.

And of course people are going to say they didn't receive something, especially if they think it's junk mail and just toss it.

I'm also pretty sure the people that receive license suspensions are in the vast minority.  And in all cases, they didn't go thru once - they went thru multiple times.  They thought they were gaming the system...until they were notified about the fines and penalties they accrued, and then the license suspension.

Of course, when they go on the news and complain, they'll say everything to act like the victim.  And the media will generally slant the story to make it look like they're the victim.  In reality - they knew what they were doing, and are pissed they got caught.

[Brandon]

Question is a bi different. Of course, charging infrequent customers at 2X rate under "they don't vote here" assumption is a common thing these days.
But, if the overall cost of AET transaction is 2x lower than cash, one would expect that AET introduction would cut tolls 2x. I don't think any AET system achieved that - making me believe that cash customers are charged 2x not because underlying costs are higher - but because they will pay whatever is on a bill.
And using legislative regulation is perfectly OK in such cases when a too-big-to-fail agency goes on a power trip.   

Actually, the 2x rate is the carrot to convince people to use I-Pass (EZ Pass) instead of cash.  It works too, as over 87% of tollway users use an I-Pass (EZ Pass).

And I am only moderately uncomfortable with that. Punitive charges for locals... Well, maybe not a good idea... But if I am far enough from home to be out of ezpass area, I would likely have only a few tolled trips. Extra $10-20 is a small part of trip cost (which would start with $200-500 air fare or a few hundred miles worth of gas and car wear) - but paying for peace of mind that all charges are settled definitely worth it, even if it is an unfair charge.

Anyone and everyone who has an I-Pass or an EZ Pass can get the discount in Illinois.  This includes EZ Passes from as far as Maine or as close as Indiana.  And ISTHA is willing to dole out I-Passes to people from Chicago to California.

[cl94]

Here's something else people aren't mentioning: You can almost always reload an E-ZPass with cash!. I think every agency has at least one walk-in center where you can use cash to increase your balance.

The surveillance argument is also BS. The government can get more by tracking your cell phone than by tracking an E-ZPass or license plate. It's actually ILLEGAL in most (if not all jurisdictions) to use E-ZPass data for anything other than toll collection. In some cases, the government will even listen to your calls without a warrant! See the Erie County, NY Sheriff's Department for that one.

[kalvado]

Here's something else people aren't mentioning: You can almost always reload an E-ZPass with cash!. I think every agency has at least one walk-in center where you can use cash to increase your balance.

Which is pretty irrelevant to the situation at hand.

The surveillance argument is also BS. The government can get more by tracking your cell phone than by tracking an E-ZPass or license plate. It's actually ILLEGAL in most (if not all jurisdictions) to use E-ZPass data for anything other than toll collection. In some cases, the government will even listen to your calls without a warrant! See the Erie County, NY Sheriff's Department for that one.

So what?

[1995hoo]

Here's something else people aren't mentioning: You can almost always reload an E-ZPass with cash!. I think every agency has at least one walk-in center where you can use cash to increase your balance.

....

Virginia also has something called the E-ZPass Reload Card that lets you replenish your E-ZPass using cash at certain retailers, such as 7-11 and CVS, so you don't even have to go to a DMV or an E-ZPass service center. I don't know much about how it works because I have no need for that card, but http://www.ezpassva.com would have the info.

[wxfree]

The surveillance concern becomes irrelevant with all-electronic tolling, because the license plates of all vehicles are routinely photographed and recorded.  I wouldn't be surprised if tolling authorities photographed plates on cars in the cash lanes so they can find violators.  In either case, the vehicle identification device would make no difference in terms of privacy.  The only way to avoid being tracked is to avoid toll facilities that do this.

[cl94]

Which is pretty irrelevant to the situation at hand.

Being as at least 1/4 of the posts in this thread are talking about how AET systems do not allow one to pay in cash, yes, it is relevant, because there ARE cash payment methods.

So what?

So what? The only way to avoid surveillance is to never leave your house that is in the middle of nowhere and off of the grid. It has been impossible to avoid any surveillance for a good 20+ years.

The surveillance concern becomes irrelevant with all-electronic tolling, because the license plates of all vehicles are routinely photographed and recorded.  I wouldn't be surprised if tolling authorities photographed plates on cars in the cash lanes so they can find violators.  In either case, the vehicle identification device would make no difference in terms of privacy.  The only way to avoid being tracked is to avoid toll facilities that do this.

You do realize that police cars in many places have LPR systems, right? Only takes a few seconds to run your plate through the system.


But back to the topic at hand...

If they didn't receive bills in the mail, then something was wrong with the mailing address at the source.  And bills aren't sent out once, but multiple times.

And of course people are going to say they didn't receive something, especially if they think it's junk mail and just toss it.

I'm also pretty sure the people that receive license suspensions are in the vast minority.  And in all cases, they didn't go thru once - they went thru multiple times.  They thought they were gaming the system...until they were notified about the fines and penalties they accrued, and then the license suspension.

Of course, when they go on the news and complain, they'll say everything to act like the victim.  And the media will generally slant the story to make it look like they're the victim.  In reality - they knew what they were doing, and are pissed they got caught.

Most agencies have a minimum balance before they'll even go to a collection agency or do other measures. Just not worth the cost otherwise.

[J N Winkler]

If they didn't receive bills in the mail, then something was wrong with the mailing address at the source.  And bills aren't sent out once, but multiple times.

These assumptions are not borne out by the evidence.  It is perfectly possible for mail to be stolen out of mailboxes--this has happened to us at least once.  And "first notice received is violation notice" has been an observed problem with some toll agencies, notably NTTA.

I'm also pretty sure the people that receive license suspensions are in the vast minority.  And in all cases, they didn't go thru once - they went thru multiple times.  They thought they were gaming the system...until they were notified about the fines and penalties they accrued, and then the license suspension.

Yes, people do game the system.  But toll agencies also hoard video license plate data until they get access to new license plate databases:  there is no statute of limitations or other customer protection mechanism to force forgiveness of stale tolls.  There have been many documented instances of the right license plate number from the wrong state being billed.  Moreover, considering that many states issue specialty license plates with overlapping series and ANPR readers have difficulty with specialty plates (e.g., Kansas DOR duplicates numbers across all of the specialty plate series, meaning that if you have 35431 as a Kansas veteran's plate, you can receive a bill/violation notice for a toll incurred by someone with 35431 in one of the university plate series), some kind of statute of limitations on unpaid toll helps protect the innocent.

The surveillance argument is also BS. The government can get more by tracking your cell phone than by tracking an E-ZPass or license plate. It's actually ILLEGAL in most (if not all jurisdictions) to use E-ZPass data for anything other than toll collection.

I don't think the surveillance argument is complete BS.  The doctrine of parallel construction allows law enforcement to use illegally acquired evidence to build a case if there is some way they could plausibly have obtained that evidence through legitimate means, even if those means were not in fact used.  Moreover, the toll agency is not the only entity with the capability to read toll transponders:  readers are sold on the open market and can be bought on eBay.  Toll agencies are not, as a rule, obliged to tell exactly where and how they deploy readers, and I have suspected several of using readers in undocumented locations that are tied to their fiber optic networks.

It is certainly true you can be tracked through your phone.  You can also be tracked through the PCM in your car.  (I believe it is a current OBD II requirement that the diagnostic system be remotely accessible over the air, so the hardware is there even if the car is not sold with a value-added remote diagnosis and assistance system like OnStar.)

[Mapmikey]

Fees for out of state users are quite reasonable in Florida ($0.25 per booth extra and $2.50 added per month whether you drive a toll road once or repeatedly during that month) and Texas (at least the Austin area...tolls are 1/3 higher and there is a $1.15 fee per month).

Some (Most?) of these agencies allow you to pay online whether you have received the bill or not...

I also agree that rental car companies are ripping people off with the way they do tolling issues.

[kalvado]

The surveillance concern becomes irrelevant with all-electronic tolling, because the license plates of all vehicles are routinely photographed and recorded.  I wouldn't be surprised if tolling authorities photographed plates on cars in the cash lanes so they can find violators.  In either case, the vehicle identification device would make no difference in terms of privacy.  The only way to avoid being tracked is to avoid toll facilities that do this.

Frankly speaking, there are enough cameras on non-toll facilities to make that argument irrelevant. It is more about information being explicitly collected and actually used on toll facilities - while only few people really know what happens with other cameras' footage. Maybe it is processed, maybe not, maybe data is stored... 

[kalvado]

Which is pretty irrelevant to the situation at hand.

Being as at least 1/4 of the posts in this thread are talking about how AET systems do not allow one to pay in cash, yes, it is relevant, because there ARE cash payment methods.

Cash on the spot, I would say. I can pay EZpass through the credit card, and pay bill by cash - bring money to the post office, buy a money order, mail it to credit card company. However, that is not the point - using cash as a direct payment method is the key issue.

So what?

So what? The only way to avoid surveillance is to never leave your house that is in the middle of nowhere and off of the grid. It has been impossible to avoid any surveillance for a good 20+ years.

Someone else doing things wrong doesn't justify another wrongdoing. Fact that there were 10 homicides in Albany this year is absolutely irrelevant to, for example, me trying to slap your face. Giving yet another shady semi-governmental entity information it doesn't really need is not a good idea, regardless of the way ATT or Google tracks my phone.

[hbelkins]

The surveillance concern becomes irrelevant with all-electronic tolling, because the license plates of all vehicles are routinely photographed and recorded.  I wouldn't be surprised if tolling authorities photographed plates on cars in the cash lanes so they can find violators.  In either case, the vehicle identification device would make no difference in terms of privacy.  The only way to avoid being tracked is to avoid toll facilities that do this.

Frankly speaking, there are enough cameras on non-toll facilities to make that argument irrelevant. It is more about information being explicitly collected and actually used on toll facilities - while only few people really know what happens with other cameras' footage. Maybe it is processed, maybe not, maybe data is stored...

In Kentucky, at least, traffic camera images are not saved. The state has determined that it's just easier that way so they don't have to respond to requests or subpoenas.

[J N Winkler]

Cash on the spot, I would say. I can pay E-ZPass through the credit card, and pay bill by cash - bring money to the post office, buy a money order, mail it to credit card company. However, that is not the point - using cash as a directpayment method is the key issue.

I have some sympathy with the view that there should always be an on-the-spot cash payment option, but I don't view this as a winnable argument.  Collection expense has always consumed a significant share of toll revenues (usually about 30%) and delays at toll plazas represent significant clawback of the time benefits of building a toll facility in the first place, so any technical solution that allows the toll agencies to reduce this burden will be well-nigh irresistible.

I think it is more important to ensure accountability in how toll collecting data is used, to ensure that there are no abuses of surveillance capabilities and that good-faith users of the toll road are shielded from the consequences of any back-office failures.  It is also common to provide a mechanism to allow AET tolls to be settled online close in time to the actual tolling point transits, and I believe all agencies that operate AET or assess fines for toll nonpayment should be required to provide such mechanisms.

[kalvado]

The surveillance concern becomes irrelevant with all-electronic tolling, because the license plates of all vehicles are routinely photographed and recorded.  I wouldn't be surprised if tolling authorities photographed plates on cars in the cash lanes so they can find violators.  In either case, the vehicle identification device would make no difference in terms of privacy.  The only way to avoid being tracked is to avoid toll facilities that do this.

Frankly speaking, there are enough cameras on non-toll facilities to make that argument irrelevant. It is more about information being explicitly collected and actually used on toll facilities - while only few people really know what happens with other cameras' footage. Maybe it is processed, maybe not, maybe data is stored...

In Kentucky, at least, traffic camera images are not saved. The state has determined that it's just easier that way so they don't have to respond to requests or subpoenas.

There are lots of other types -  security cameras for private and public entities, enforcement cameras such as red light and truck checkpoint enforcement. POssibly cameras in police cruisers - and god knows what else given that cameras are really small these days. I believe someone mentioned that you're on average filmed by 2 cameras at a time while walking on Manhattan, and I think that is a conservative estimate.

[US 89]

The surveillance concern becomes irrelevant with all-electronic tolling, because the license plates of all vehicles are routinely photographed and recorded.  I wouldn't be surprised if tolling authorities photographed plates on cars in the cash lanes so they can find violators.  In either case, the vehicle identification device would make no difference in terms of privacy.  The only way to avoid being tracked is to avoid toll facilities that do this.

Frankly speaking, there are enough cameras on non-toll facilities to make that argument irrelevant. It is more about information being explicitly collected and actually used on toll facilities - while only few people really know what happens with other cameras' footage. Maybe it is processed, maybe not, maybe data is stored...

In Kentucky, at least, traffic camera images are not saved. The state has determined that it's just easier that way so they don't have to respond to requests or subpoenas.

Utah traffic camera data isn't saved, either, but that's because the state legislature required it for fear of surveillance. They also required that the cameras be blurry enough that license plates are unreadable. In other words, the image quality sucks because the legislature mandated it.

That's also why red light cameras are banned. Speed cameras are technically allowed, but there are so many restrictions placed on their use that they are essentially unusable.

[kalvado]

Cash on the spot, I would say. I can pay E-ZPass through the credit card, and pay bill by cash - bring money to the post office, buy a money order, mail it to credit card company. However, that is not the point - using cash as a directpayment method is the key issue.

I have some sympathy with the view that there should always be an on-the-spot cash payment option, but I don't view this as a winnable argument.  Collection expense has always consumed a significant share of toll revenues (usually about 30%) and delays at toll plazas represent significant clawback of the time benefits of building a toll facility in the first place, so any technical solution that allows the toll agencies to reduce this burden will be well-nigh irresistible.

I think it is more important to ensure accountability in how toll collecting data is used, to ensure that there are no abuses of surveillance capabilities and that good-faith users of the toll road are shielded from the consequences of any back-office failures.  It is also common to provide a mechanism to allow AET tolls to be settled online close in time to the actual tolling point transits, and I believe all agencies that operate AET or assess fines for toll nonpayment should be required to provide such mechanisms.

I would love to see more physical payment option - like ATMs - at nearby locations. I suspect many stores and gas stations would be happy to get extra visitors, and rest/service areas are already there. It is hard to justify extra footprint on a road itself, especially in urban areas with high traffic.
Online payment is better than nothing, though.
Its a matter of being willing to create extra options as opposed to benefiting from fees and fines...

[Beltway]

I have some sympathy with the view that there should always be an on-the-spot cash payment option, but I don't view this as a winnable argument.

Generally seems true, but with HOT lanes like on VA I-95 and VA I-495 there really isn't enough space to put a toll plaza anywhere.

[kalvado]

I have some sympathy with the view that there should always be an on-the-spot cash payment option, but I don't view this as a winnable argument.

Generally seems true, but with HOT lanes like on VA I-95 and VA I-495 there really isn't enough space to put a toll plaza anywhere.

Express lanes and such are a smaller issue from my perspective. One is not required to use them to get through, and they are primarily geared towards commuters. I am more concerned about the cases where there is only one bridge (or all bridges are tolled), or only one reasonable highway. Think NYS Thruway and Manhattan bridges or Penn Turnpike.

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

I agree with most others here that the E-ZPass tracking concern is completely nonsensical. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out: you have a photographable number on your car whose specific purpose is to identify the owner, and all toll booths have the technology to photograph it either for AET or to catch violators. With modern OCR technology, it is basically just as easy to track any car with a license plate as one with a toll transponder.

Most holdouts against E-ZPass I know of in downstate NY either very rarely use toll roads (which is not common considering how many of them there are), or are retired folks who can only pass time by being contrary anymore.

We already have facial recognition cameras running on some bridges & tunnels in NYC. If you think there is any way to avoid being tracked in public nowadays, you're deluding yourself.

[abefroman329]

Literally anyone with an EZ-Pass or a toll transponder that's compatible with EZ-Pass is entitled to the discounted I-Pass rate. It's far from "soak the strangers."  And yes, the fee to use a toll transponder in a rental car is usurious. So is the fee for XM. You can get a month of streaming for what you pay the rental agency to use it for two days.

[theroadwayone]

In regards to the idea of refilling an ETC account using cash, I think Puerto Rico has a few toll roads with dedicated "replenishment" lanes, and I also heard once that Florida was doing something similar.

[ilpt4u]

Here's something else people aren't mentioning: You can almost always reload an E-ZPass with cash!. I think every agency has at least one walk-in center where you can use cash to increase your balance.

ISTHA can reload cash at the ISTHA Offices in Downers Grove, the I-Pass service centers in the Oases, and also I-Pass Toll Gift Cards, for lack of a better term, can be purchased with cash at Chicagoland Jewel (grocery) stores, and Road Ranger Truck Stops in Northern IL. Then the balance can be transferred from the Gift Card to the actual I-Pass account via calling 800.UC.IPASS or going to the getipass.com account management website

[Beltway]

Here's something else people aren't mentioning: You can almost always reload an E-ZPass with cash!. I think every agency has at least one walk-in center where you can use cash to increase your balance.

How would you avoid depleting the balance before you remember to reload it?   What would the toll agency do if you did that?

The advantage of auto-replenishment with a credit card or debit card, is that the toll account won't get depleted.